Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Carol Off: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1545

Episode Date: September 3, 2024

In this 1545th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Carol Off about her career in journalism, why she left As It Happens, and her new book At A Loss For Words: Conversation in an Age of Rage. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, The Advantaged Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada, and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Welcome to Episode 150045 of Toronto Miked. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the tastes of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. The Advantage Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada. Learn how to plan, invest and live smarter with

the Raymond James, the Advantage Investor podcast. RecycleMyElectronics.ca, committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. And Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making her Toronto Mike debut is Gemini award-winning journalist and author of the new book At a Loss for Words Conversation in the Age of Rage. It's Carol Off. Welcome Carol. Hello Mike. Nice to meet you. That was quite the introduction. Well listen, only I bring out the big guns when Carol off. Gemini award. Where is that Gemini award right now?

Oh, it's sitting on a shelf, um, just in range of when I do a zoom call, you know, Oh, is that in the frame? I didn't intend that to be there. Yes. It's right there. Okay. Now where are your husband's Gemini's? He's got more than you.

He's got many, many, many. It's not a contest, but I also have him in my I don't answer any questions about that. You know, you know, people just zoom with Carol off and they see, I don't know, 11 Gemini is, and they're just going to make a natural assumption. Absolutely. What can I do about that? It's that's their assumptions. That's not deceiving. That's just, you know, you're just, it's not fake news. If they ask you any follow-up questions, you'll be honest. I will So Carol, okay today I literally well now it's about 1023 But a couple hours ago, I dropped my youngest off at school And I noticed yesterday that I felt and I haven't been in like, you know school since the 90s

But I felt this back-to-school anxiety I'm wondering do you feel this like is this just a mic thing or even if you're out of School somehow the Labor Day there's this back to school vibe Yeah, I've been going back to school back to work every Labor Day since I was five and Maybe younger and I have to say when I finally left the CBC two years ago The the thing I thought about most was that when it came to Labor Day or the day after Labor Day, I was not going to have to be anywhere. And that was the most exciting possibility for me.

But are you teaching at Western? I did. I did a semester last year based on this on the words. They were interested in that. So I did that with the kids. Okay. That was endangered words. And that was at Western School for Advanced Studies in the Arts and Humanities and that was all about your new book so we're gonna get into it but I have a I had a copy and now I have like a hardcover copy and I'm promised you're gonna sign this before you disappear after this chat but this is called At a Loss for Words conversation in an age of. And we're going to totally

get into it, but because it's your Toronto Mic debut, I got a song for us. Although I did see that you were like just on As It Happens, like maybe last week? I was just last night I was on As It Happens. Okay, so I was gonna say it's been a while, but what's it like returning to As It Happens? It was totally weird. It was, well first of all because it's my studio I was returning to. I spent 16 years in and yet I'm on the other side of the table being interviewed by Neil Coxel who's now the host And how's she doing? She's great. She was wonderful

She thought was just as weird as me, but we we really got into it. It was it was it was emotional It was in the it was I haven't thought a lot about as it happened since I left But I sure thought about a lot last night So Carol's we set the table here and before we get into the book and why you wrote the book and I have some questions about the book, could we just rewind a little bit? Can we get, because you spent 16 years hosting CBC Radio 1's As It Happens, but can we go back, like, maybe help me understand how you get there? So that was the 16 years of your life. We'll get into, like, why you left, but can you give us a vibe of what made you want to be a journalist? I'm not sure I ever did want to be a journalist.

I don't recall making that choice. Well then you made a huge mistake. I did. I'm still trying to figure it out. So but you went to, I know you wrote for the, you know, speaking of the University of Western Ontario, you wrote for the Gazette there, right? Like, so you're going to school and I don't know, I won't age you, but early 80s, let's say, and somehow that gets you to as it happens.

So can you help me just fill in the blanks there? Well, when I was in university, the Gazette was always around and I thought it was awful. And I remember a friend saying to me one day, well, if you think it's so bad, you should just go and work for them. Yeah, do something about it. Do something about it. And so I thought, okay. And so I joined and then I became just as arrogant as they were about how wonderful

we were. And it was just, it was one of those places where we thought we were pretty great. And I think we could have learned a bit from Following other news agencies, but mostly I mean as far as how did that happen between between that and as it happened sure I remember at the time so thinking when I got the job at as it happens And if someone had told me back in university when I was listening to as it happens and Barbara from all the time If someone had ever said to me one day you will be in that chair hosting it. If they'd said one day you will walk on Mars. I was more likely it's possible. But one day I would host as it happens and I'd sit where Barbara from set would be impossible. And there I was.

So why is that? I, you know, similarly would have thought I'd have a better chance of walking on Mars than hosting a podcast merely because I thought I had a terrible voice and hated my voice. And I think I can write maybe but not ever speak into a microphone. But what was it that you couldn't even fathom that you might one day, you know, be on national airwaves like as it happens? Do you think I have a terrible voice? No, you have a great voice. That's my so what is it that what is it that you you you dare to dream? I don't think I ever dared to dream of being on that show. It just wouldn't be possible.

But I fell into the whole business of journalism by traveling and I just had a nose for news. And so I'd find things, whether it was Pakistan or Africa or wherever I was traveling, and I would think, okay, that's a story. And then before I know it, I was reporting on it and then getting gigs for that and then finally hired by the CBC to do just that. So basically between the Gazette, which is, you know, the student newspaper there and being a staff writer there and then CBC coming

and saying, Hey, we have, we have a gig for you is there any other professional outlets that you are you know working as a journalist for in that in that period I did I wrote for some newspapers I had no intention during that the first seven eight years of being a journalist I was trying to be a novelist and but I was pathetic I really sucked at fiction. Making things up just was not my bag. And so I realized that life is more surprising than anything that I have in my imagination. And so eventually I figured,

maybe this is really what I should be doing. I will just give you one story about that. I was, I had done something, I had done this story from Pakistan I had, and I wrote it up and there was a kind of an alternative arts publication, they wanted something offbeat, so I wrote it for them and they said, well, this isn't really very good, can you write it again? And so I rewrote it, I don't know how many times, and they said, just it's getting worse.

And they were going to pay me fifty dollars for that. And so finally I said well, they said look you're just you you're just hopeless at this And so I give it up. And so anyway, I said well, I'm not gonna just throw this away so I contacted McLean's magazine and said can I just submit this to you and They said sure and I did and they said this is great. Can we pay you 500 for it? Hey, that's 10 times the price. Okay, I think this is where I'm going to go. Smart. So you're just you're basically doing good work. And did you apply for a job at the CBC? No, never. I just started freelancing for them. And my theory was that I wasn't going

to start at the bottom and just hope that somebody gave me a better job. I just freelanced and rode my bike everywhere because I couldn't afford the subway and just parked myself on doorways of shows I wanted to work for and said, I'm not going away until you let me work for you. And eventually they did. See, sometimes that works for you. When you're carol off, that works.

And sometimes they call security and you're banned from the building. Well at the time I wasn't as you go Carol off. I was just some hopeless girl on a bike. But there's no shame in that game. I will say you could right now and hopefully you do before you leave you give me a million dollars and I'm still biking everywhere. Oh, yeah. No, well, I'm not going to bike anymore. Believe me, my knees won't let me do that. Okay, low impact workout. Oh, that's too bad bad I feel like that's the one thing well maybe you can you can swim. I do know how to swim I've been swimming my whole life. That's funny you're in the land of I know that there's a Gus Ryder pool in this

neighborhood Gus Ryder trained Marilyn Bell and a guy who's what's this Lumsden what's a cliff okay I'm gonna forget Cliff Lums guy who's, what's this? Lumsden, what's a cliff? How can I forget? Cliff Lumsden, these are local legends, Marilyn Bell, Cliff Lumsden, and Cliff Lumsden Park is at Fifth Street and the lake, and Gus Ryder, again, that pools in South Etobicoke, but you're in the right place for the open water swims.

Right, and where do I swim to? Well, I'm thinking this, from Marie Curtis Park to Sunnyside There's your swim here. I'll be in a kayak beside you We be wearing your CBC T-shirt. What do you think? so I actually was thinking I often when somebody who's had a You know a great career at the CBC or maybe not so great. I wear this vintage 1976 CBC shirt which doesn't breathe very well.

It's pure polyester, but really it's I got it from a guy who worked at TV Ontario because I guess for the Olympics in 76 There was this joint They they work together TV, Ontario and CBC So everybody got these shirts and his was in his closet He's like I think you might appreciate this more than I do and I I often wear it but today I'm wearing the the faux Retro, so this one's today I'm wearing the the faux retro So this one's not you know, it's faux retro. It's cotton. It's this one breathe is much better I think with that that logo that you're wearing we called that the exploding pizza. Okay, you call it the exploding pizza

I call that the exploding asshole, but oh well some people I'm sure said that as well Yeah, where that for you so why did you decide and I have a few more as it happens questions before we get to the book, but why did you decide to leave the CBC and as it happens in 2022? It was, I spent 16 years doing that. I clocked in, I think 25,000 interviews and I was tired and I think COVID had a lot to do with it being, going to the CBC every day for those years where, um,

there were five of us in the whole building. Um, we didn't see people just trying to get that show on the air every day. It was exhausting. I think a lot of people wore out during that time and I was among them. I just thought I need, I need to break. I need to do something else. And you got to walk away on your own terms. This isn't the infamous tap on the shoulder we hear about often on this program.

You didn't get a tap, but you decided I'm out of here. No, nobody did. They would have kept me there forever, but I knew that, just eventually, when you feel, every day I went to As It it happens, every day I worked, I loved it every day felt new to me. Every story we did felt fresh. I just I just climbed inside every interview and found something that I didn't know was there. And then I was getting at the end

of it where I didn't feel that way. I felt I was repeating myself. I wasn't as curious and that scared me because my whole life curiosity is key to my, my, my existence. And I felt my curiosity waning. And that's when it felt like a job, right? Like that's when it transitions. I actually, I totally relate. Like I think, and again, I'm, this is not the CBC you might've noticed. Uh, it's not quite the CBC, but I feel like the moment I'm not excited that, you know, Carol Lough is going to be at the door and we're going to chat

about, you know, as it happens in her new book. Like if I'm not into that, now it's a job and maybe I should do something I have more passion for. Yeah. And that's, um, I did the book itself. I started the idea for it started kicking around in my, I just couldn't get it out of my head for the last few years that I was at CBC and just thinking about how Language was breaking down how angry people were how much? How adversarial? Conversations became I and I was an aggressive interviewer I just you know

I take no prisoners kind of questions. And people knew that they knew that they were going to have that when they talked to me and they respected it because we both had a job to do. But I started finding that it was just not that anymore. People were just, not only did they hate you, they hated the questions, they hated everything about what you represented.

And I just felt this, I was shocked at how quickly the conversation, the social conversation was breaking down. And I thought, I, if I'm going to do anything, I'm going to, I'm going to write a book at warning about where this goes. Was there any correlation? I'm just naturally curious. Was there a correlation in this like lost art of civil conversation coinciding with the election of Donald Trump in 2016? You know I think it started happening before

that. I found that during the years of Stephen Harper's government it was increasingly antagonistic to talk to anybody and I just and I'd never encountered that before. I'd interviewed everyone in Mulroney's, Brian Mulroney's government. I'd interviewed many many conservatives, many people in different parties, Republicans. And even if we didn't agree, they didn't like the questions, they knew we both had a job to do. And there was a respect, a kind of mutual respect that we're just going to, we're both trying to get something across to the public. And then I started finding that that wasn't the case, that there was just this antagonism.

And it was wearing. And so you couldn't get answers. You couldn't get the public. And then I started finding that that wasn't the case that there was just this antagonism. And it was wearing and so you couldn't get answers, you couldn't get the truth, you couldn't challenge anybody without, without becoming a struggle. And I so I started finding that even before Donald Trump, Donald Trump just sort of caught the zeitgeist of that rather than created and he didn't create this breakdown in our civil society. He rode on it. He rode on the coattails of that and became its champion. Okay, more on this. But at what point in your career, so so many years at the CBC, and as you can tell by the t shirt, I'm a CBC fan here. I consume a lot of CBC and have for for decades. But when did you start to realize, oh, on

the far right, they're making us to be the enemy? Like, oh, they're making us to be the bad guys. Like, when did you start to notice that seeping in? Well, it wasn't just CBC. It was independent media in general. And I think what we know what we've seen trending through all to all time through politics is that when the only way you can get to have power without being challenged is to get rid of the media, to get rid of journalism, to have no independent sources of information. And so we began to see that with sort of move toward the populist leaders demagogues not just in the United States but in many many countries.

They're just trying to take break down the whole business of journalism of reporting of independent voices because once you've done that you can tell people anything. Once you have separated people discredited The profession that you and I are both in once nobody trusts you then you can say anything you want to and Unfiltered and get your message across all of it amplified now by social media Right now, of course, you're right that it is all independent media not just CBC, but the the difference being of course that the CBC is taxpayer funded and the mistruth and we'll talk about we're gonna get into this book in great detail in these the words and what they mean and

how that affects that the the lack of civilized discourse, but the CBC funded by the But the CBC funded by the government, the lies that come out of the far right is that there's political interference, like that the Trudeau government, for example, would have some kind of editorial rights, some kind of interference. But when did you start, when did that, was that always in place? I mean, Harper was in government for like a decade. And I don't remember hearing anybody suggesting that Harper was that always in place? I mean, Harper was in government for like a decade. And I don't remember hearing anybody suggesting that Harper was influencing the reports we would hear on CBC.

Well, I don't think it's got really anything to do with what they perceived was going on with the CBC. It was the idea that the CBC was effective and all independent media that's effective is going to be a target for people who want to have exclusive dibs on the public and not have anybody asking questions, challenging them. So I think that the degree to which you are effective is the degree to which you are attacked by the by demagoguery, by those who say,

we need to get rid of you because the public is listening to you. And I think the CBC was effective. And first of all, the CBC is not the only, because it's not funded by governments, funded by the public is the difference. And plus, in addition to that, much, much media is funded, gets grants,

gets tax breaks, gets funding. In fact, CTV, if you added it all up, probably gets as much as the CBC because it's supported. And that's really important in this country because we're up against multinational corporations now who are putting out the social media platforms where they're antagonistic to the truth, not even not just that they don't publish the truth and where Canadians are not well served, not just by CBC national or as it happens, but just locally, local, just small communities where you can't find out about local sports. You don't know what's happening at the school board. You don't know what's happening in your community because there is no more media there.

It's all drying up and that's the most dangerous thing that's going on in this country. Should Hamilton have its own CBC outlet? I think that yes, I can't think of a community that shouldn't have, not just CBC. Hamilton deserves to have a lot more independent media, a lot more voices and diversity, not just CBC. But I think when you, and also when you talk about what the, no one ever says that, that you're being biased in favor of the conservatives. I know for a fact that people who are reporting for post media are told you cannot say anything

good about Trudeau. You have to, it's the editorial policy of post media. I think, I think it was Canada Land that leaked the memos where yeah, it was in ink. You could read sort of this is how we're going to get the progressive conservatives elected in this province. Yeah. And so you have a situation where you have an entire media landscape that is dedicated to getting rid of a political party, a political government. And at the CBC, I can say anything I want about Chudeau in an interview like this, not as a host, but I can criticize the liberal government, I can criticize the conservative government, and both of those critiques will end up on the air.

If I criticize the conservative government to post media, it won't show up. So where is the bias? Right, right. Very interesting. Now, just to put a bow on as it happens, so we can focus primarily on the book here. I heard you say 25,000 interviews. Yeah. So, what am I at? Like 1500 and something

interviews on this show, but I'm counting like every time I drop it, you have catch up. Give me another couple of centuries. But if every time I drop an episode, it gets its own number. Like it's been, I have a system where it's very easy. Like, so did you have like a, like a sort of like an umpire in baseball? You're clicking this timer thing every time you clock another interview. I just during those last years when I was wondering why I was so worn down and why I wasn't curious anymore. I just sat down once and I just counted the numbers of interviews we did in an average day and an average week and then in an average year and then I sort of and then added it all up and I realized I'm into the mid 25s now,

25,000 interviews and counting and that's just it as it has 16 years it as it happens over the course of 40 years of working in CBC and working in the media. I'd say it's probably another 10,000 there. Well that's remarkable. I envision this like Google spreadsheet or something and you can you clock the 25,000 I talked to this guy and this guy and this farmer saw UFO and then you're just going down the list and Would love to see that Google cheat now of those 25,000 Do you have a most memorable interview? Like you're gonna ask this isn't this is that's a standard question that you get no No, it's just this is the most embarrassing question that I get because I should remember

them but I really, when people say I love the interview you did such-as-such and I'm thinking, right, I did that, didn't I? But no, I think as memorable goes, I think some of the goofy ones of course were the most fun. Just the ones where somebody, I don't know, a woman gets sweaters for chickens or somebody makes earrings out of deer poop and, and though, because they're really deer. Those are really lovely people with people who strange, very strange stories about sheep would always come up whenever we had a sheep, sheep show. We

loved it. I would never miss an opportunity to say the word penis on air, which is my this, there's a grade five default as it happens, everybody just wants to say poo poo and pee pee on air. And so they would get me to do that, which then there was no difficulty getting me to use this kind of good on you for using the you know, you're on CBC. So you use the doctor words, as we say in this home, the doctor words, penis. I said, I often said penis and vagina. I never got to see vaginas or vulva as much as I wanted to, but I did get, you know, on this show I did, I did scrotums and penises and because people

would make things like a lot of sculptures out of penises or make them Make them out of penises. Sorry. Whoops, but make penis sculptures. I think it's a museum I was at in Amsterdam for the penises. That was one of our favorite pieces is the the penis museum and it was in... Berlin? No, no, it's in some Scandinavian, Sweden. Oh, or is it Iceland? Is it right? Iceland. Iceland has the penis museum. I've been there. So I was like, but I've seen a similar penis museum in Berlin and I saw one in Amsterdam

I know I feel like I get to do that story on as it happens but this is a top secret top secret is that I Think I'm gonna launch a penis museum review podcast. This is in stores And if you ever had talked penis on your show before is this the first time you've been able to say that words? No, I've said penis many times, but I'm a little less mature than you. So I might have called it a dink or a wee wee who knows? I've got a thesaurus over here. There you can't do that on the CBC.

But that's why it's doctor words. Yes, the doctor words. And then from penis to something more serious, I'm always curious as a journalist who was working through, you know, September 11, 2001. How does 9-11, does it change things in terms, like for you and your professional career as a journalist? Like, was that a moment where there's before 9-11 and after 9-11? I'm just wondering, or is it, this is just another massive global event that I need to cover?

I remember, cause I wasn't at As It Happens. I was at the national CBC television at the time. And I remember the boss I had at that time was we watched what was going on that morning, and I was in Toronto at that time, a day like this, a beautiful day in September, and my boss said, this changes everything, and I didn't understand what he meant. He was a very, very wise man, John Witten, and so, and it was true. Then I spent the next, most of the next year on the road. I never really went home.

We went from going to New York, going to see the site, talking to people there, covering that horror, to following where the story went from there to Afghanistan, to later to Iraq to well Egypt there were stories there around the world and so basically 9-11 changed everything it changed everything for me as a journalist changed everything in the world as far as I'm concerned I can only imagine so you so you weren't on the air 9-11 this is but you were you were at the National, like as a correspondent?

Yeah, I was working for the National and I did their foreign, much of their foreign documentaries, and so I was just dispatched that day to start covering the different angles on that story. And to call it a story is just it doesn't do justice it was just a massive event in our lives and we're still feeling the reverberations for that aren't we? Well I always wonder in some regard is 9-11 a you know a moment where we can tie it to your book like maybe post 9-11 is the beginning of the, you know, the loss of words, if you will, like where we lose the art of civil discourse. I'd say more a moment when I thought we've lost the art, where we lost the conversation,

we have abandoned ourselves to the fringe. The fringe has taken over people who are don't want, not part of the conversation, don't even want a conversation. I think it was January 6th when they, when those Trump followers, the MAGA supporters stormed the capital in Washington. Watching that that day day that to me was the moment when I truly felt that we had lost the plot on as a civil society and that this made sense to too many people that this is what you should do that you should actually storm this building trash it look for people to kill look for people to kill, go door to door in offices to,

and to have the person who was still the president at that point, egging you on to say, look for him, look for the vice president, a gallows, makeshift gallows built outside, ready to hang Mike Pence. This to me was, I thought, we'd seen it build, we'd seen this grow, We've seen this grow. But this is the first time I realized how bad things were. Yeah. It's sometimes I wonder if that was a fever dream. It's January 6th, 2021, but you're telling me it happened.

Well, and I think people remember where they were at that moment when they realized that everything had changed. For me, that was really when this story, this book began to really shape up in my head when I realized that this, we had to, and I have to say that I didn't think it was possible. I thought that by the time I got to be talking to Mike in his basement.

You've really made it now, by the way. The CBC t-shirt with a very low ceiling that he has to keep warning me about. And that I thought when I finally got to this place that you would be saying, you're such a Pollyanna, Carol. You're thinking that we're in this hopeless, that we can actually recover the conversation. We can actually start talking to each other when people are talking about killing each other. But now I actually in the past couple of months, I've begun to feel more positive, more feeling

that there is hope. How much of that has to do with Kamala Harris? It has everything to do with the Kamala Harris switch. Not because I'm not, I don't know if she will win. I'm not, I don't know if she will win. I'm not, I don't know if she'll be a good president. If she does win. I just know that that was the moment when I thought it's possible. We can still talk to each other.

We can still engage. Um, and I think that, that people felt the same. I don't think that you would have seen millions of people, tens of millions of people suddenly and instantly rally around her message about freedom. If they hadn't been looking and waiting for this to happen. And I think you saw that there and you're seeing it in Canada where people see they're calling it the politics of joy and the feeling that we're not going to succumb to this anger, this resentment, this hatred and this adversarial world that has been taken over by people. And I have to say, on the right, they have really stoked that.

I felt that we've recovered the ability to talk to each other. Okay, so the storming of the U.S. Capitol, that's January 2021, but in 2022, the freedom convoy. And this is when thousands of demonstrators occupy downtown Ottawa to protest COVID-19 restrictions. Is this yet again, I'm thinking now specifically, I opened the show with a little Janice Joplin, okay? She's saying, freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

Just because I'm thinking of that being one of your words. So here, let's set the table by talking to, telling the people that the new book, which I'm holding in my hand is available now, like today, right? Today's the day? Exciting. Congratulations. That's exciting. This is my first interview today.

Is that right? This is great. Yeah. Okay. You're starting in the big leagues here. It's all downhill from here, Carol. But this book is called At a Loss for Words, Conversation in an Age of Rage. Interesting to me is that I had a bunch of stuff I was reading where it had a different title. So you must know this, that at some point this book was going to

be called At a Loss for Words, Why Can't We Talk to Each Other? This was the title, right? At least that this is the title. Anyways, maybe that was like like an early draft. I think this is why why we can't talk to each other. It wasn't a question. Why can't we talk? But why we can't? It's a statement. But if that felt too much like was a self-help book. And so I think we decided that I'm not writing a self-help book. Right. So you basically look at the manipulation and weaponization of language through the lens of six words, freedom, democracy, truth, woke, choice, and taxes. And again, a chapter on each of these words, very thorough, very interesting, but you would think we could spend a little time on freedom here.

So freedom is a word that I see in this country anyways, that got co-opted by the convoy in 2022. By the way, Carol, I also feel they took our flag. So I remember in 2022, I would see a Canadian flag and I always felt very proud seeing a Canadian flag born and raised in Canada, very proud of this country for the most part. But I would see the flag in 2022 and I'd feel like almost this feeling of like, oh, like, like, like, it's almost like you're seeing a F Trudeau

flag, or you're seeing some kind of a well, it's usually on the same vehicle, right? Yeah. So so language we're going to dive into, because that's what the book is about. But co opting these, you know, language and co opting these symbols, and kind of using it against you. We need to take it back, right? Well, I think that the freedom word was key to that. And when I would be interviewing people or covering the story or watching it develop in Ottawa on that very, very cold winter when the

freedom convoy, so-called freedom convoy took over and occupied the center of Ottawa. Someone would just jump into front of the camera and go freedom. And I thought, what is it you think that word means? And that, and I felt the resentment of people who had actually struggled against tyranny, people who live in this country, who came from places, they came to Canada because they, they, they came from places that are not free. They came from places where you can't speak, where you can't have even an opinion, where you have no freedom. And they come to a country where here if you can drive 116 wheelers up to the front door of government, set up your bouncy castle and hot tubs

and occupy the Capitol for a month. What freedom do you feel you don't have? And they would say in those moments, we're taking our freedom back. Well, what's the freedom? The freedom to do what? What is it you're missing in your life that you consider? And obviously it came down to that point, COVID, they felt that they were,

they didn't have the freedom to go anywhere without a mask, the freedom to go into a restaurant and order without, with the restaurants were closed for the most part. They had lost the freedom of movement. And I thought, well, I, I don't want to lose the freedom to not be infected by a disease that at that point, it killed 50,000 people in Canada alone, and in the end, a million people in the States, we wanted the freedom to be safe. We wanted the freedom to have our kids and our grandparents and whoever else not not vulnerable to a disease that was spreading like a wildfire and

The argument was we want to be free to do whatever we want We want to be free from the responsibility to others And that's when I thought that this word freedom has been co-opted by the convoy and and again also just be a year earlier By the January 6 so when a movement like that co-op a word like freedom, like how do we reclaim it? Like how do we reclaim it? Are these people going to read your fine book? And I, you know what, I was shocked that Kamala Harris is doing it. They, the entire theme of her campaign, the, what's her theme song Beyonce's freedom. Freedom? The word freedom is, if you count the numbers of times it appears, every time that Tim Walz or Kamala Harris speaks,

they say freedom in almost every paragraph. And you hear no talk of freedom on the part of the MAGA conservatives. You hear no Republicans talking about freedom. They talk about how the country is broken and how we need to take control. We need to control what books you're reading in the library and we need to control what gender your kids have. We want to control who that marriage. We want to control these things. And so you have the opposite. The narrative is flipped and you have Republicans, mega Republicans talking about taking your freedoms away. And you suddenly have these these people that are often accused

of being socialists, who are the ones who now own the word freedom. And so no, they I, if I'd love of Kamala Harris read my book, but I think that they, they claimed this word, they took it back in a way that I didn't think was possible when I was writing this book. Amazing. They're also redefining the word weird. Because I care, I, I always liked the word weird. And I'm a little weird. And I always think weird is a little like, typically, it's interesting. It's not a bad thing, right? Like, maybe you're not typical, you've got a few, you know, x, x, I can't even say that word. X and tech, interesting. Thank you. Okay. We've lost weird. We're not going to get weird back. I think we should, uh, maybe I'm going to write the book on reclaiming the word weird. Uh,

you, maybe it's a worthy sacrifice for a good cause. I don't like how weird has become a bad thing. And again, I, I like, I hope I'll be honest. I hope Kamala beats Donald Trump. I would like to get rid of Donald Trump. I heard him say the other day, you touched on this, but I heard him say maybe it was yesterday it was on social media. Your kids are going to school and then the teachers are putting them into surgery for like gender reassignment or something. And they come back, the kids come home having had surgery and lost their body.

And now they have a different gender. They won't walk my kid to a park a block away until I sign like triplicate. It's just how anyone believes this, but they do. They actually believe this is what happens. I've heard interviews, I've heard streeters at MAGA conventions where people say absolutely astonishing things. And you can't think, honestly, that's not happening. interviews, I've heard streeters, mega conventions where people say absolutely

astonishing things. And you can't think you honestly that's not happening. It's not true. It didn't have this another one that they say is that that a woman can abort her can have an abortion of a newborn baby, the baby's born. And no longer abortion. It's murder. It's murder. And so and that women are doing that all over the states are killing their babies. And so you Okay, right? It's murder. And so, and that women are doing that all over the states, they're killing their babies. And so you, okay, give me one. And there's someone online who's actually on Twitter saying that he will pay $10,000 to anyone

who can come up with a single name of that happening. And, but Donald Trump says that everywhere he goes, that they're killing, women are killing their babies, they're aborting their babies after they're born. And I've heard streeters who people think that's true. And it's up to people like you to help us, at least the start I guess towards civilized conversation is if we can all agree on the meanings of these words and the words that you focus on again, freedom, democracy, truth, woke. That's another one

I like talking about choice and taxes. Like these, some of these words have been co-opted and their meanings changed, but if we can all agree on what they mean, then we can have a civilized discourse. I personally am happy to talk to, I don't know, somebody in my friend's circle is a big Pierre Poliev fan. We're going to get back to him in a minute. I am more than happy to have a converse. I sign, you're not dead to me. And I would like to chat with you about it, but civilized discourse. Well, I think that that's what the biggest problem is, is that we can't have these conversations because the fringe, the people, the extremists, the ideologues have taken over the conversation.

I think that there is a frustrated middle, there's a whole bunch of us in the middle like you and me probably Who are can can listen to either side would like to hear both sides like to hear your argument I like to hear what you but not to have the conversation shut down Because you just won't listen and I don't think it's just a matter of being able to To say what you want to say with with freedom And and it's matter of listening to others really listening to what I was just saying and that That has stopped both think the conversation and both ends has stopped And yeah, I think that we need to be able to have that we need to be able to open that conversation again

Absolutely now before we get any further Carol Because this is not the CBC and I've heard this complaint, guests come over and they're like, when I do the CBC, it's a good conversation and then I leave empty-handed. But Carol, could I give you some gifts for making the trek here? And I'm honored to have you here. Been a long time listener. Now you're an FOTM, that means friend of Toronto Miked. Do you Carol off enjoy? Italian food Yes, actually, okay good. I like I appreciate the honesty good I was running about this pizza that was saying poma pasta calm that sitting in front of me

I'm now to respond to that right, but there's a green thing sitting on top. Okay multiple multiple gifts coming your way So the green thing is a measuring tape and that is courtesy of Ridley Funeral Home. We shout out Ridley Funeral Home on this program. Pillars of the community. You never know when you have to measure something. So now you have measuring tape from Ridley Funeral Home. Can I measure how long this interview's been? Go ahead. Okay, you can measure anything you like. Seemed really... There it goes. It works. The pizza is actually gonna be a lasagna and it is in my freezer right now.

The box is empty. So before you leave, a lasagna will be in that beautiful red box and you'll have delicious palma pasta lasagna. Oh, I got it. I got a mug from as it happens. Okay, a mug. I would like an as it happens mug and put it in the I know and I would have brought because I have so many now and I could have brought you one. I've got done done done done done there they keep that's the Moe Kaufman version yes yeah it's great it's fantastic okay when I actually asked Ilvibe who's a local rapper producer I said hey I need a theme song for this podcast I want to start this is 12 years ago I should tell you and I said yeah I'm looking for like a modern

more hip-hopy kind of as it happens theme like that was literally what I asked for I'm like modern, more hip hopy kind of as it happens theme. Like that was literally what I asked for. I'm like, this is the song that you use on as it happens. I kind of dig that vibe. Hip hop it up, do a few verses and let's see what you come up with. And that's the Toronto Mike theme I've had for 12 years. That's lovely.

Thank you, thank you. Fresh craft beer from Great Lakes Brewery. They brew that in Southern Etobicoke. It's not chilled. No, it's not chilled. But stick that in the fridge and enjoy it. And by the way, what neighborhood, you don't have to dox yourself, but what neighborhood do you call home?

Toronto. Okay. Like West End? East. East, East. Okay. So these guys are in Southern Etobicoke, but you can buy their fresh craft beer all across this fine province. And they have a location also at,

they have a brew pub at Jarvis and Queens Quay. So maybe make your way there, have a nice lunch, enjoy some fresh craft beer. So you're taking some home. I am, this is amazing. And you never get this at CBC, you're right. No, I mean, Tom Wilson from Junkhouse is down here and he's like, yeah, I can't do it.

Tom Wilson impression. I was going to try to do one, but don't. I do a lot of CBC. I don't get lasagna. He just comes by for the lasagna now. So last but not least, welcome back to the program, Raymond James, the Advantage Investor podcast hosted by Chris Cooksey. That's where you get your best practices, your good financial advice.

Subscribe to that podcast and Carol, if you have any old electronics, old devices or old cables at home in the East and there, please do not throw that in the garbage because those chemicals end up in our landfill. Go to recycle my electronics dot CA and put in your postal code and you'll find a place near you. You can drop it off to be properly recycled. Excellent. Now, we talked a bit about the Freedom Convoy. Did you make the trek to Ottawa to check it out or you watched it from afar?

I could not go to Ottawa because I was having to stay in the studio. So no, I watched it, recorded it from there. Okay, so Pierre-Paul, you have marched with the freedom convoy. Now I'm just wondering how, because you know, in this country, you know, they've got to go, what's going on down South. It's very interesting. And we watch it with, cause it matters. They have a great effect on our day to day, but up here we have a prime minister, Justin Trudeau. At some point there will need to be an election and if you

believe the polls, it looks like the Conservative Party will form the next government. I'm just wondering how Pierre Poliev compares to the Donald Trump populist alternative facts methodology in your eyes. I've heard people comparing Pierre Poliev to Donald Trump. There's just no comparing. Donald Trump is in the league of his own. There's just, it's such an extreme example of a demagogue of somebody who is a dictator in waiting. And Pierre Poliev is not like that.

I think that Pierre Poliev has learned the language, the rhetoric of us against them. He plays the demagogic language while he talks about that he is the one who's going to save people. He is the strong man who will resist the woke mindset or the woke radicals and that he is the one who will stand up to the gatekeepers and he raged farms. That's the other successful thing that populists do. But I think that when we talk about the freedom convoy

or all these things, that a lot of people were opportunists and Pierre Balli have joined that opportunity to look like he was a champion of the freedom convoy. A lot of people at that convoy, a lot of people who are part of that kind of movement are people who feel insecure. And so we can't forget that there are a lot of people

who just genuinely feel insecure right now for really valid reasons in this country and in the United States, but let's just stick with Canada. And I think what Pierre Pauliev does is that he plays on people's insecurities. He amplifies them He says I'm going to save you from that on the other hand what I hear from the liberals is that they basically Ignore your insecurities and I so I think that we're failed And the liberals say well look at the data

We have look how well we're doing as a country and all of its true on paper, Canada is doing really well. But that doesn't mean that you feel that security within your own life within your house within the with the cost of living or the cost of groceries. And so you have these two parties right now you have you have Justin Trudeau, who doesn't seem to care about your insecurities, and you've got Pierre Poliev who, who, who preys on your insecurities and amplifies them. And so you were basically stuck with a technocrat versus a demagogue. And these two men seem to be determined to

get in the ring and duke it out with each other. And I feel that we're left behind, we are in the middle of the sort of people who have genuine feelings of insecurity, genuine needs to have leadership, people with imagination, people who are not rage farming, people who are not trying to stir up our emotions and turn us against each other and against society. We don't have anybody who's doing that right now on either side.

And there's something to be said about a governing party that simply reaches its best before date. Like it expires. Like I feel like this happens, you know, whether it be Mulroney's government or Crutchian's government or Harper's government that the liberals have been in power for, I guess it's been about almost, it'll be 10 years by the time we probably have an election and that I guess it's been about almost, it'll be 10 years by the time we probably have an election. And that Canadians, the general will, the zeitgeist decided it's time to change things up.

I've never understood this argument, it's time for change as being a reason to get rid of a government. But at the same time, the liberals just seem tired. They actually do have good policies. They actually do have good ideas. But they're just hopeless at explaining them to us and getting us to feel, say, well, you just trust us, we're doing the best for you, and that may be possible. But I just don't feel that they just look bored. Whenever I see a Chudo cabinet minister, a liberal cabinet minister speaking about a policy that might they're just, they just seemed, they're not interested in it.

They seem bored or they seem resigned to this idea that they're going to be losing in the next election. I feel this Carol. I feel that exactly. I feel like some people are like, Oh, why doesn't Trudeau step down and put some like new blood up there? And then I'm feeling like, okay, maybe this is like, you know, how calf, Kathleen Wynn didn't step down when it was clear that, you know, Doug Ford's government was gonna form the next provincial leadership party.

I think maybe Chuteau goes down, he goes down of the ship to kind of save somebody from this fate. Oh, I just think he's so determined. He seems so resigned though. But he seems so determined to duke it out with Pierre Pauliap. Those two men have a hate on for each other and they wanna fulfill and in this election and I'm feeling we're, what do we get out

of that? But I mean, I think that the liberals just look and feel tired and on their own by, by, by, by, by their own efforts, not by us saying simply, we want change. I don't want, I just want things to be better. I just want people to feel secure. And I don't think that either party is is is encouraging that at this point. Now in our last 10 minutes here, I realized I had a question from a listener and I really want to get this in although I did kind of touch on this earlier. So I feel like I've stolen her thunder. But Leslie was curious, in your opinion, Carol, where this rise in populism comes from. I was hinting later, does it start with Donald Trump in 2016?

And you said it predates that. So if it predates Trump, do we have an idea of when this current populism starts to rise in this continent? Populism has always been with us for many decades. Populism is not dangerous in itself, but the elements of populism, the rhetoric of populism, can turn to authoritarianism really easily. Because populism uses the language of the demagogue it uses the us

against them language it adversarial anger resentment of others fear of others that's what that's what populism plays on and that has been that's the basis for well that's what how the the hitler and the third rike came to. They played on that feeling of anxiety. People have their fears played into it for a decade before they even came close to having power. And we see it in totalitarian regimes in on the left and the right, where they begin with this talk of,

I'm the strong man, I will take care of you. I will protect you from the evil other. It's never defined, right? It's always quite often, well, for the, for the Nazis, it was the Jews, right? But I'll protect you from the other, I'll protect you from the bad elements. And people feel that, and so they get sucked into that. And then they only realize what a problem problem is after it's too late. I was reading that you volunteered with Journalists for Human Rights to help Afghan journalists escape from the Taliban. And I wondered if you could tell me a little bit about that. That sounds very interesting.

I spent a fair bit of time in Afghanistan and I have many friends from journalists and friends from Afghanistan who are now here because they've had to flee the Taliban and so when the Taliban took retook Kabul just three years ago, I was Rick I'm actually president of Canadian journalists for free expression, but we joined with journalists for human rights to rescue people as best we could and and journalists for free expression. But we joined with journalists for human rights to rescue people as best we could. And it was just a crazy time trying to get people out of that country before they disappeared. And we were somewhat successful, but not as much

as I'd like to think we could have been. But good on you. That's that's amazing that that you you did that now quick hits here any thoughts Carol on what's happening with global news these days as a Chorus is reading their rough shape. I think there's a fire sale going on right now with any chorus property. You're interested in They've been decimating global news as a result of these these costs cut cutting the cost cutting What are your thoughts on this? Well, ctv just did it Bell Media did it before them and? CBC

Continues because it's publicly funded but that I think you if you talk to anyone at the CBC they just feel that that's going to Be decimated as soon as Pierre Pauli of who promises to dismantle the CBC's in power. I think that the media landscape in Canada in general is in real trouble. It's not just global or Belmedia or CBC or whatever. The thing that upsets me the most is that the small communities are not served. And we're seeing a lot of small operators starting businesses. We see online newspapers.

We see things like you doing interviews like this in your basement. And I think that's it's wonderful, but it's not enough, right? You don't you can't it's hard to support yourself. I'm sure you have great advertisers, but it's really difficult to stay afloat. And so I can't speak to what I think Global's going to do, but it's just an example of lots of media going in this direction, because there's just

no money in this. The money is being sucked out by the big tech platforms, who are multinational corporations with absolutely no interest in telling you where the scores of the local teams are and what's happening at the university and reporting on the last one. City council, for any city not named, you know,

Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver. And so we're not, you know, Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver. And so, and so we're not you believe me, that Elon Musk is not going to doesn't care at all about your city council meetings, no one in Facebook, none of these are going to and see say, oh, Facebook, you can get Facebook page. Well, yeah, you can. But that's not the same thing as having somebody go down and report on it and tell you what's going on.

For sure. Now you down and report on it and tell you what's going on. For sure. Now you did just touch on it because if Pierre Poliev is elected prime minister in this country and it's possible, maybe probable, what is the future of CBC? I know you don't have the crystal ball with you. I was checking to see if you brought your crystal ball, but he has pledged, I think, yeah, to defund the CBC. What does that mean for the CBC at a time when we need it most, in my opinion? Well, it means that it's going to suffer. I the only way that

you can, I think you can push back on what Pierre Poliev says he's going to do is if the public says that they don't want that to happen. And so I worry that my colleagues and my friends at the CBC are dispirited. They feel that this is, that they're facing the demise of this amazing institution that has existed for decades and has been such the lifeblood of people's homes and of their knowledge and information and their connection with each other from coast to coast to coast, et cetera, et cetera.

And that the public is sort of feeling, well, I guess there's nothing we can do. We can't stop this. I think, Mike, I think one of the biggest things, the problems that people feel resigned to this idea that they can't change anything, they can't turn anything around, that yes, Pierre Poliev is going to get rid of the CBC or dismantle large parts of it. Yes, we're going to not have local news coverage because big tech media is going to overcome all of that. We're not going to be able to afford to buy a house. We're not going to be able to do anything we want to do.

And I feel this resignation in this country. And I think people felt that way in the United States. And that's why I think what Kamala Harris represents is the sudden idea that, no, no, we don't have to give into this. No, it's not over. No, we don't have to succumb to the worst ideas and losing the things that matter to us. And so I think that the politics of hope is the one thing that I now turn to that

gets me up in the morning, that maybe we don't we're not going to see some of the worst things only if the public says no, you have to stand up, get up on your hind legs and say, I don't want this to change. I don't want this to go. I want this conversation to continue and I want it to happen on the CBC and in other media across this country. I needed this pep talk personally because I feel that the Conservative Party nationally and even the Progressive Conservative Party provincially, I feel neither really cares about getting Toronto's vote. Like my feeling is

that my thoughts and my feelings in this city, which happens to be Canada's largest city, but they've they can win without Toronto and they're not really trying to get Toronto's vote. It's almost like they've decided they're not going to get Toronto's vote. They don't need Toronto's vote. So my voice doesn't really matter. This is a feeling I have. But that's the argument that has been presented itself in every election that I've ever covered for what four decades, that Toronto is not necessary or Toronto is dominating it and Toronto decides and the rest of us outside of Toronto don't get to influence these elections.

That's always an argument, big cities and rural communities. But you know what's really interesting? The United States, they are having these, they call it, I think the, the, just the sort of, um, the anti rage movement. And so these small communities are joining with people in large communities in large cities to, to have these meetings, to have these councils, to have these gatherings, where they talk to each other about, let's share our experiences. And so people who some, uh, a farmer who, uh, is very, councils to have these gatherings where they talk to each other about let's share experiences.

And so people who some farmer who is very, very right wing and Republican is then sitting down in a room with somebody who's from the LGBTQ community of a big city and listening to each other like really deep listening to each other. This is a movement that's little tiny, these little knots of this movement are across the United States. And someone called it the Kumbaya Industrial Complex, you know, we're going to sort of turn this around by just going back to the conversations that we that will bridge these divides that we will be bridge builders and and not destruction engineers, right. And so I think that's happening in the United States

in small movements, and I think that can happen here. We can start talking to each other again. Well, here's hoping, here's hoping. I am glad you wrote At A Loss For Words. Thank you. So thank you for writing this book. The announced Charles Adler is gonna be a senator. Carol Lough, senator, how would you like that? No, Charles Adler's gonna to be a senator. Or Carol Off Senator? How would you like that?

No, Charles Adler is going to be a senator? That's wonderful. Yeah, that was announced a couple of weeks ago, but I was thinking Carol Off for Senator. So I'll start that campaign for you if you like. And we didn't mention his name. I realize off the top we made a joke that you're married to a guy with 10 Gemini Awards. Lyndon McIntyre, how's he doing? He's great. He's got a book coming out in the fall. with 10 Gemini Awards. Lyndon McIntyre, how's he doing? He's great. He's got a book coming out in the fall

and I think he should be on Toronto Mike. Oh, look, that's where I'm going with this. Will you, I'm curious, how was his experience? You've got 25,000 interviews under your belt. I know they don't normally go this long, but how was this for you? And will you recommend to Lyndon that he make a Toronto Mike appearance? You want me to measure this one?

How do I measure up? You measured up really well, Mike. And I got all these gifts. No, it was a very good interview. I really appreciate it. Thank you. And that brings us to the end of our 1545th show. You can follow me all over the place I'm at Toronto Mike. So if I'm gonna send people somewhere, are you on

social media Carol? Yes. Where would you send them? Well I'm on Twitter or X, Facebook, Instagram and I'm if you want to just them all, just www.caroloff.ca. Caroloff.ca, I'll be tagging you in all those social media places when I post this, which will be in about 10 minutes, because I'm not editing a word. That's the other big difference between your interviews and mine. No edits for brevity. What did they say for brevity? All right. Clarification. Clarification, right. Much love to all who made this possible. That is Great Lakes Brewery. Don't forget to bring home that craft beer. It's Palma Pasta. I've got the lasagna in the freezer. Recyclemyelectronics.ca. Raymond James Canada. And of course, that measuring tape is courtesy of Ridley Funeral Home. See you all tomorrow when Kate Wheeler returns to the show. We'll find out what she

thinks about these chorus cuts at Global News. She was there recently for many years. See you all then. I've been told that there's a sucker born every day But I wonder who, yeah I wonder who Maybe the one who doesn't realize there's a thousand shades of gray Cause I know that's true, yes I do I know it's true, yes I do I know it's true, yeah I know it's true, how about you? They're picking up trash and they're putting down roads

And they're brokering stocks, the class struggle explodes And I'll play this guitar just the best that I can Maybe I'm not and maybe I am But who gives a damn because Everything is coming out Rosie and Grey Yeah, the wind is cold But the smell of snow

warms me today.