Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Clive A. Smith: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1535

Episode Date: August 14, 2024

In this 1535th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Nelvana co-founder Clive A. Smith about A Cosmic Christmas, the Star Wars Holiday Special, The Devil and Daniel Mouse, Rock & Rule, The Care Bear Movie, and more Nelvana productions before they dive into his new graphic novel The Rather Unusual Adventures of Ice Cream Girl and Mr. Licorice. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, The Advantaged Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada, The Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball Team and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Welcome to episode 1535 of Toronto Miked, proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma pasta enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. The Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team the best baseball in the city outside the dome with eight championships since 1967 and yes they're in the playoffs this season I think there's like a week left of regular season then then it's playoff time. Let's get that ninth championship since 1967.

RecycleMyElectronics.ca, committing to our planet's future, means properly recycling our electronics of the past. And Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making his Toronto Mike debut is the co founder of Nelvana, Clive A Smith. Welcome Clive. Thank you, Mike. Nice to be here. What's with the A that is that like there was a Clive Smith or you just enjoy having the middle initial? No, I do have a middle name and I sometimes, I used to use it all the time.

I used to use, you know, as my initial, my initial still has it. My signature still has it. So it's not like- But I don't use it very much. It seems stupid. It's like extra. It's a branding thing. Do you think it's a branding thing?

Like this is Clive A. Smith. Like those other Clive Smiths, they're all pretenders. There are a lot of Clive Smiths and there's not too many Clive A's. But nonetheless I've sort of snuggled down into all the other Clive Smiths and I've just become one of them. So I'm okay. One of the Clive Smiths. Well you're not just a regular Clive Smith here. We're gonna discuss this. So much I want to talk to you about and I'm really like honored you're here. So it's nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. It was great coming here. It was a fantastic. You're on a motorcycle. It was a great ride. I haven't been in this part of the city for ages and it was such

a beautiful morning and it was such a lovely ride. It is a nice day. Along Lake Shore. And the last one of the last we used to come here quite a bit when we were looking to buy a property and there was a, there was the, the Polish embassy. It's still there. Is it still there? Still there on, on Lake shore. It was an amazing house and it had been sitting there for a while. And I believe it was actually for sale. And we thought about it for ages. And I think Zach our son had just been born

I think he was like one or two years old and we weren't sure about the neighborhood We weren't sure about him running out into the road and where is kind of a busy street, right? Yeah Yeah, yeah So we felt that we needed to be sort of more, you know in a cozy downtown neighborhood, which is where we are now, as you know. But I love that, I love the neighborhood. And I love the idea of being on the water, even though I hate the fucking water. I mean, well, I don't like boats necessarily.

I don't swim very well. I don't snorkel. I tried snorkeling and I thought I was drowning. I thought I was like totally you know okay cuz I got I was recently gifted a kayak and I've been hitting the lake it's actually folded up in that that that that backpack has a kayak inside that's brilliant bring it I bike it to the lake and I unfolded in there I had an inflatable kayak many many years ago anatable, it was like a big balloon.

But you don't like the water, so I'm guessing you didn't use it that often. We didn't use it that often, no. No, no, no. Lily, I kind of love the idea of you getting waterfront property, and then I move like the TMDS studios to like the boathouse or something on your property.

I feel like it's not too late to make this happen. Now let's just tell, before we dive in, I mean, Nelvana, you have, and I love your shirt there. You have a new is this called this is a graphic novel It's a comic book. What do you call these right now? It's a graphic graphic novel See I'm catching up the rather unusual adventures of ice cream girl and mr. Licorice So we got to talk about this like is you're supposed to be retired You're supposed to be on that motorcycle just cruising and here you are still producing great content.

So I want to talk about this. I love your hat because you have a Rock and Rule hat on and I can't wait to talk to you about Rock and Rule. So much to tell you, so much to talk to you about, but I need to let the FOTM's listening know that you're married to an FOTM. Now you just made a call to her to tell you you've arrived safely at the TMDS studio. Melanie Melody, also known as Mellie Fresh, is your wife.

She was a Care Bear. This is a big deal, Clive. She was a Care Bear and she was a few other things. She was in Strawberry Shortcake and she was several characters in Care Bears. And yes, we're married. And we've been together for almost 40 years. So we're going to crawl through, you know, obviously I want to talk about the new graphic

novel of course, but now that I've got you trapped in my basement, you cannot leave. I need to ask you some Nelvana questions. So at some point I will play a little Care Bears theme song just to warm us up and talk Care Bears. And then maybe I can, is that where you meet Melanie Melody directing Care Bears? Well, I met Melanie outside the building. She actually came in with her youngest sister Lisa for an audition. Because we were auditioning young girls for a particular part in a show. And I don't remember which show it was. No, no, of course not. I don't remember anything. Are you kidding?

No, my job is to jog that memory. We're going to get some memories, but yeah. But anyway, so she came in with Lisa and, um, and we had a discussion. Lisa didn't get the part, but Melanie, on the other hand, came in and she, there was a call for me or something and I was talking to Melanie and a phone call came in and Melanie fake fainted in the lobby, you know, in front of the, way, and I stepped, apparently, I stepped right over her and went to take the call, and she was a little bit upset about that. So we actually brushed into each other two or three times

before we originally, until we finally officially met. I know she came in at one time with a bunch of poems and she read poems which I subsequently really love, really like. And I hated them at the time. I said no, I don't like them. And so again, you know, I think I upset her quite a few times in those early days. But we did get together sooner or later and we had and here we are. Well, what quite a catch if I may say so. What a catch for you. Well done. So congrats on that. Yeah, no, she's really fresh. Very cool. And she cares about you because she needed to know you were here safely. Like that's a good sign.

Well, yeah, the thing is she needed to know that I got the phone number because I didn't know how to get into your wretched house. You have no bells. Yeah, let me ask you this. This is my big question. I'm thinking you don't know that you can knock on a door like I we know you're not know there's no bell. You're right. But you can knock on these doors. Maybe you're used to such giant mansions that you can never hear a knock like in these smaller. That's part of it. I think that's it. You're in the other wing. I've got no wings here. I got to smaller. That's part of it. I think that's it. You're in the other wing. I've got no wings here.

I gotta be careful about my knuckles too. I need them, you know. You can elbow that door, you know. It was, it was, it was in my, it was on my list of things to try, tell them. But I thought a phone call would have been, you know, was more appropriate. Well, again, remember when, when, when I got a phone,

so the way this got set up is I get a phone call from Mellie Fresh. Like she just calls me, was more appropriate. Well again, remember, when I got a phone, so the way this got set up is I get a phone call from Mellie Fresh, like she just calls me, hey Mike, she goes, someone wants to talk to you. She passes the phone to you Clive, and you talked about, you know, your new graphic novel, and I said, you had me at Nelvana. So we booked this, we scheduled it, and all these, then I suddenly get a call

from Must Acosta Fortune, okay? So Jesse Hirsch is a listener who heard you were coming on and he wrote in, fun fact, the corporation for the house they built on the Dover court escarpment was called must across to fortune Inc. Must across to fortune is a great name for a company. Yeah, it's the name of the company.

It's not the name of the house. The house is the ho ho house. The corporation for the house. So. The corporation for the house. It's the corporation for the house is Ho Ho Holdings. And Ho Ho Holdings is like my umbrella company that all the other things dangle underneath. But must cost a fortune was a company that I started 24 odd years ago when I was still at Nirvana

because I knew I knew I needed Is somewhere to go after nelvana? Okay, so I want to get the nelvana origin story, but you clearly have a British accent your name is Clive I don't know any Clive who's not from the United Kingdom like Clive is a very British name. It's also Jamaican I'm not Jamaican. Okay, Jamaican a very British name. It's also Jamaican. I'm not Jamaican. Okay, Jamaican, a former British colony. So maybe- That's true, yeah. There's a connection.

Connection there, but definitely. What brings you to Canada? Like how did we get you? I started my career in animation in London in a tiny little studio just outside London in Richmond and we were working on the the Lone Ranger and the Beatles series cartoon series right and I actually I stumbled across it because I had been doing after I left art school I've been doing a bunch of silly little things like what would be called graffiti now, but actually we were putting names onto

boutiques in the Kings Road and various areas like that. And that kind of ran out for me and I needed, I wanted to get into something serious and something cartoony and I got a call or I made a call to a company called whatever it was called I tell you in a minute in bachelor and no no no it wasn't it wasn't I had tried all those places no but I had I stumbled across this place and I really didn't understand exactly what the process of animation was. And I walked in and there they were painting these beautiful colored plastic

cells and shooting them one at a time and painting backgrounds. And I just love the whole process. And I got a job. I had nothing to offer them in six at my art school sketches and stuff like that. So I got into it in, you know, at that point. The 60s, right. In the 60s. And that company was doing mostly hand me down work. They were doing work from the States

and actually from Hallison bachelor as well. So they were the kind of last in the in the line and that work eventually ran out So once again, I'm on the street painting the fronts of buildings and things like that and doing graphics and And this character who worked as an animator at the company in Richmond, called me and said, they're looking for animators in Toronto. What do you think? And I said, where the hell is Toronto? And I'm not interested,

because here I am in London and having a great time. Well, we had conversations over a period of a few days, and eventually, he kind of took me into meeting with Vladimir Götzelman, and Vladimir was the art director for Algest Animation. Algest Animation was a very big deal company here in the late 60s, early 70s. And I had a conversation with Vlad,

met him in a pub on Bond Street in London, one wonderful sunny afternoon. We sat and drank beer and talked all sorts of stuff, and at the end of the conversation, and I had no intention, I just wanted an afternoon out and chat, I had no intention. I just wanted an afternoon out and chat I had no intention of coming up at the end of the conversation. I thought to myself How easy it would be to say no and just carry on doing whatever I was doing

But the offer that he made me was amazing. It was like a year to work on this project which I'll tell you about and to work on this project, which I'll tell you about, and my flight was paid for, my hotel was paid for, and there was a salary that I couldn't even have dreamt of in London. So it was a no-brainer. So I came over. Now before you tell me about that project,

what was the name of that company, Ho Ho Holdings? What was it, what were you, you told me moments ago about a company that you started. It is. It is my company. It's Ho Ho Holdings. Okay. It's it's hold is Holdings, but with a starter is Oh, not like Santa. Not like Santa Claus. No, no, I heard it as Ho Ho Holdings, right? Like Santa.

I know it is very, we are very tied into Christmas for some reason. Well, let me play a little, just to warm us up here Clive, I'm trying to jog the memory, we're going back. I'm gonna take you back to 1970s. Actually, you'll tell me where I'm taking you back to, but let's just soak this in for a bit.

Prepare for landing, Earth Day, December 24th. A cosmic Christmas. A cosmic Christmas indeed. Okay I really want to soak this in here. What year is this? 77 maybe? What year are we talking here? Earlier than that? This is around 77, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Where are you keeping all the cute little bunny man out of space? Right there! Where are you, Louis?

I wanna go! I wanna go! I wanna go! And can I? I wanna go with everyone over there! He's a cheater! Aaaaaaah! Faster! Faster! I haven't got all night! There you are! Come on, Lucy, let's go!

Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas, ladies! Merry Christmas, Mr. Mayor! And the same to you, young man. Don't forget to tell your folks to vote for honest John Thimbley. I won't. Life will be happy this time. Vote in truth and honest John Thimbley. Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas,

Happy Unfortunate. How's it going, Santa Joe? Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas, help the unfortunate. How's it going Santa Joe? Not so fine Peter. Well Merry Christmas anyway. Help the unfortunate. Give to the needy. What are you some dumb bull? Give to the needy sir.

Merry Christmas kids. Help the unfortunate. Hey man what do you mean? Help the unfortunate. We are the unfortunate hey man what do you mean help the unfortunate we are the unfortunate yeah right on come on Clive I need to know is this the project you're alluding to or is there a different project they wanted you to work on that's completely different this is a project that Patrick Michael and I made in the early days I guess of Nelvana. So we started Nelvana in 1970. Okay. But this is not what I came here for. No no no of course not. When I came

over here on the invitation of Algest and Vlad, we worked on Robert Robin Hood. Rocket Robin Hood. I watched it all the time. Did you really? Yeah, Friar Tuck would take one bite of a piece of food and throw it, and he used to, it's like, well, look at that waste, come on, Friar Tuck. I watched Rocket Robin Hood all the time. That's amazing.

So I came over as one of many animators, like hundreds of animators were coming over. They were being brought over from Europe, from the United States, from England, obviously, from various places. And our guests put together a huge crew to work on this project that was actually out of New York as a subcontract.

And I came over to work on that but Vlad called me a few a few weeks earlier yeah that I was supposed to come and he said can you come over now because we have a commercial that needs to be animated now now here's the thing I was barely an animator I had only been in animation for about a year and a half and I was an assistant mostly I hadn't done a lot of animation myself anyway, I came over and I animated a commercial and designed the whole thing and I

Ended up staying in commercials doing commercials because our gas had a commercial department commercials because Al Ghez had a commercial department. Right? And then, but at the same time, I'm mixing with all these other great animators. I mean it was very funny because this is 1967, okay? That I came over. And quite honestly, Toronto was dreadfully boring. It was awful.

And you know, after I came over, I remember having wonderful parties in London to say goodbye to people, you know, and I came over and the first day I woke up here, I thought, what have I done? Where am I? But the thing is, the thing is that things got really a lot better because of the crowd that that Algest had brought over. We actually made out it was like it was like we were a little civilization within Toronto. So there were parties almost every night, certainly every weekend, lots of interesting things to do and interesting people to see. I met Carol

Pope. You know, Carol Pope was a question. Did you cream your jeans when you met Carol Pope? Well, I wouldn't quite put it that way, but we, we did hang out and we were very, very close. Um, and we formed a band, Carol and Kevin and myself, we had a band called Oh, I was going to say you are, you're an original member of Rough Trade. I'm learning this now, no, that's amazing. Not quite, not quite Rough Trade, but yes, yeah, you could say that. But Carol and I had a band called O,

as in the story of O. Yes. That's, okay, you keep these fun facts coming, because you're blowing my mind, and where I'm going now, it's like, I can't believe where I'll be going very shortly here but in this period of time so this is pre-Nelvana yeah so you're doing these ads you're hanging it with Carol Pope keep name-dropping Carol Pope and FOTM she's been on the program we

love Carol Pope on this show man when she talked to me about her relationship with Dusty Springfield and hanging out with the Pet Shop Boys at Dusty's funeral. Man, it's quite something. So Clive, how does Nelvana come to be? Okay, so I worked with Al Guest for a couple of years and then he closed the company down because Rocket Robin Hood was going off in another direction that he didn't want to go. the company down because Rocket Robin Hood was going off in another direction that he didn't want to go because I watched it because at back as you know back then you watched what was on TV and they would air it I think global or

something I always remember it kind of coupled up with Hercules like the adventures of Hercules no no maybe that was something that I'm fighting can be out did later on but no but I watched a lot of Rocket Robin Hood for some reason. Well, the thing is, I think that what happened with Rocket Robin Hood was that there was some conditions that hadn't been met with the people that we had been or he had been subcontracting from in New York. And then New York people came up to change this and change that and change this and change that. And there was a lot, I mean I was just a meager animator in those days.

So I didn't know all the politics that were going on, but the fact is that the company closed and it went, and we all went on hiatus for a while. So the fact that I was doing commercials with Vlad while all that was going on was, was, you know was going on was by the by, because I just carried on working when the Rocket Robin Hood people went home, and we carried on doing commercials. We were actually doing very well.

But then Vlad kind of put that on hiatus, and that closed down, and then Vlad started a put that on hiatus and that closed down and then Vlad started a company called Scenera and I was part of Scenera for the first couple of years and then I left Scenera. Now we're only into like about the second or third year that I was here. I mean things were going pretty fast for me. I left to work freelance.

So I was doing freelance animation, freelance illustrations. And at that time I met my first wife, Trish Cullen, who, well, we'll talk about Trish in a bit. But so I was working on basically on my own and I met Patrick and Michael when they were looking for a mutual friend, mutual acquaintance and I knew this guy had gone back to England and I said well what do you want him for?

And Michael had wanted him to do some graphic thing and I said, well, I can do that. And that was really the beginning of our relationship. So you three, so you're not yet Nelvana, but you three start work. So when does a cosmic Christmas enter the fray? Because I- Quite a few years later. Because we're talking about 1970,

when I met Patrick and Michael, 6970, and we incorporated Nelvana in 1970 or 1971. Okay, okay. So is a Cosmic Christmas like some kind of a breakthrough, just because I was diving into a Cosmic Christmas, which I've never seen. In fact, that clip I played, YouTube has a very sketchy rip from a VHS tape. There's really no decent

copy that I could find of a Cosmic Christmas. Maybe you have one in your personal collection. I do and I can definitely let you see it. You've got to restore this thing. Okay, it looks bizarre. It looks wild, but it broadcasts on CBC and it was also syndicated in the United States. So in many ways, is a Cosmic Christmas The Nelvanvana breakthrough production? It was a huge breakthrough for us. It was a huge breakthrough. Prior to that, we had done a lot of short films for CBC,

a lot of 15 minute films that were live action with animation in which I acted. I was Mr. Pencil in the wonderful production of Mr. Pencil Draws the Line. I should have changed the intro and introduced you as Mr. Pencil. You can do that. A number of short films, we shot them ourselves, we acted in them and I did animation bits and pieces in it. So we did that for quite a few years and sold to the CBC. Rina Kravanya was one

of the, was actually a wonderful lady, is a wonderful lady who really helped young filmmakers by tossing them little gigs like this. I mean, we kept alive. kept we you know we're a taking $25 a week, but it basically allowed us to to Run this company. I mean we were three guys on on a in a walk up on King Street For many years and the camera I had a camera It was a boat a wine up bolex. Now we rented this place on King Street, which was a top floor of a funny rundown, restaurant or something.

And it was some place that John Mills Cocker used to, their band used to rehearse there. We took it over afterwards. There were two bathrooms. One we used as a bathroom, strangely enough. The other one became a camera room. So the toilet, which was flushed out and dried, became a light box.

And we built the camera, the table on top of that, hung the bolex over that, and that was my camera room. So I used to do animation during the day, and I used to shoot it at night in this little bathroom and we used to shoot. I should shoot at night because the electricity was a little bit more stable because there was less going on in the world around us so it was better to to shoot like that and then I run it to the lab in the morning and get it processed. It was like a one man show actually.

Wow. And back then in Toronto, you were able to survive 25 bucks a week. We managed it. Yes, somehow we managed it. Times have changed. Okay. So I want to play,

I brought some audio elements just cause as we walk through this and I promise you Clive, with all my heart, I want to know where the rather unusual adventures of Ice Cream Girl and Mr. Licrish where that comes into play. I'm gonna talk about that at great length. And are you like I'm just you know I'm only so nerdy because nerds are smart but there's a convention coming to Toronto what is the convention and you'll be appearing at this convention? Yeah it's um it's later on in August is at the

22nd 23rd 24th. Okay of August it is fan expo fan expo and it's on Front Street. It's at the Metro Convention Center. Of course. That's the where everybody dresses up and yeah, exactly I bite by them and say, oh, that's interesting. Okay. Oh, I love it taking place in Toronto here Okay, we'll get to the rather unusual adventures of Ice Cream Girl and Mr. Licorice, but here's a little song. I hope this jogs the memory. I need to talk about this special. What about a band? I know a drummer. You got him. Evelyn Daniel Mouse. Which you directed. Of course.

And now your work has entered my consciousness because I remember this. So. Do you know who's singing? Yes, I do. Who's singing this song? You said yes you do and I put you on the spot. I do, I do, I do. I trusted you Clive. I know, my memory is going crazy here. It's okay, but what can you remember? What do you remember about directing The Devil and Daniel Mouse? This is 1978. Well, let's talk about music. That's John Sebastian and I started to have a good, really good relationship with John because he's done a lot. He a lot of music for us different shows and that was actually the first time I ever went to Los

Angeles with John to record a lot of these tracks and those that section that you just played is a little montage where one of our main characters, Jan Mouse, becomes famous. So it's her kind of trip through all these fantastic programs and different performances and stuff. And John put together these three or four, they're like little snippets of songs that never, he never opened them up, he never extended them and made them into big songs, even though we all, both Michael and I tried desperately

to get him to do that. But they're beautiful little licks, beautiful little songs and it was really fantastic working with John. I will remember her name in a minute. She was a Delightful delightful singer who actually unfortunately has passed away and she passed what quite a while ago Okay, it's Annabelle Kershaw. Is that who I know and okay, maybe okay and singing voice with Valerie Carter Thank you. Thank you. Credited as Laurel Run. Absolutely correct. Correct.

Yes. Valerie Carter. She was a very dear friend actually for a while. John actually introduced me to a lot of people, a lot of people in California. The man played Woodstock. He did. He did indeed. Love and Spoonful. And of course, welcome back

Carter theme song, which I think most most people remember probably most probably, yeah, even all those great songs from the 11 Spoonfuls. Okay, so the Devil and Daniel Mouse in 1978 that you directed this this special from Nelvana. Now I need to talk about what's on your hat. I have many questions about

this, but rock and rule. Again, I brought some audio, just a guide is here, just a little bit, a little taste. Rock and rule. Good band, hot music, the best of times. It could have lasted forever. Rock and rule. Journey to a world where the cosmic forces of music, magic, and technology collide. Bring you head to head with a beast from another dimension. The Beauty, songs by Debra Harry. The Beast, songs by Lou Reed and Iggy Pop.

Wow. The Beat, songs by Cheat Trick and Earth, Wind and Fire. Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love and Roll, I need some details from you Clive. Like firstly, where do you come up with the the eight million dollar budget I was reading about for this? This is your animated, you know, feature film debut, so to speak. What can you tell me about it? It was, yeah. We had done a number of short films and it just became a point where we really wanted to get to go you know bigger and and this idea came actually out of the short film that we we made earlier called the devil and Daniel Mouse and it was a sort of a similar theme slightly similar theme you know about rock and roll and getting too big for your boots, basically.

So, rock and roll started off as a, we developed it as a film called Drats, and it was really aimed originally at a younger audience. And we did a lot of development of that, and it was all about, it was more like a, it was more like a kid's sort of fantasy film. And it had things like cheese balls and angry, angry townspeople.

And you know, that kind of a more pantomime me and we tested it. We talked to some people in, uh, in Hollywood. We talked to all sorts of people and it was decided that it was, we should be skewing higher. We should be going for a more adult theme for adult picture. And we really switched gears and for a more adult theme for adult picture. And we really switched gears and redeveloped it as rock and roll, which it's a story of a young group

who are trying to make it big and this evil, evil meg mega star who has kind of fallen on the hard times and is no longer popular. And he decides to take the lead singer from this young band and groom her for his big comeback. And that's in that evil rock star no relation to Mick Jagger that was mock swagger no relation whatsoever I feel like I'm doing a Simpsons caveat any any resemblance is completely coincidental so okay now you got these bands that

were shouted out Debbie Harry Lou Reed Earth Wind and Fire cheap trick so I'm naturally curious. So $8 million is apparently the budget for this film. So where does that money go? Is a lot of that money going towards music? That's a lot of money, right? For 19, what are we in here, early 80s? We made deals with people who were interested

in working with us. So we weren't paying huge, huge premiums for these guys. They were very, very keen to work on animation. I mean, it was like an up and coming industry. And we were very, very lucky to meet and talk to the people who worked with us. The budget went into production. I mean, it was all manual.

This was pre-comput computers. There were no computers. We were nothing. Nothing was digital. It was all ink and paint and drawing hand drawing, you know, and it was a lot of people. We must've had three to 400 people on that production and it took four years. So you it's easier to see where that money went and it was actually more than eight I mean it started off lower and we had to

refinance continually and it was it was a real it was a real challenge for us to get that picture done. You're taking a big swing here like while it's in production are you waking up in the middle of the night in cold sweats like what's it like when you're taking such a big swing, which is obviously going to have inherited partly, it's partly cold sweats. And it's mostly, it's mostly, um, excitement because we had a team of people who were so keen on making this film. It was,

it was something that like we couldn't do that today. We couldn't make a film the way we made that. We couldn't make it like that today. It would be completely different. First of all, it was a bit like, you know, across between an art school and a lunatic asylum. I mean, we had a lot of the animators came from, from, from Oakville, from the Oakville College.

What is that? Seneca? What are we? I don't even know my animated animation colleges, but what's in Oakville? No, the, it's okay. There's, okay. I'll, there's, okay. I will cheat for you here, but you can keep up your story and then I'll just chime in later.

No. So, so I mean, a lot of the people were doing it, you know, because we were all, we were all experimenting. It was an ex. We had no idea what we were doing half the time. We were, we were mostly excited about getting it done. We were writing the story as you're apparently by the way, this is from the live stream because we're live at live.torontomike.com. So thanks to everybody chiming in on the live stream. Jesse Hirsch, Jeremy Hopkins, Moose Grumpy,

Rob Pruce who has sent this link to Carol Pope. So Carol Pope may be watching us right now. Hi, Carol. Hello, Carol. Hope Carol's creaming her jeans seeing this episode being recorded. But please continue here. I'm dying to know more about Rock and Roll because I'm gonna reveal in a moment

what it took in at the theaters. And then I wanna know how it feels at Nelvana. You took the big swing, you're excited, you have this great movie and the people didn't come out for it. Yeah, I mean what happened was we went over budget, we went over time in delivering it, and we just wanted to make it as good as we can.

I mean we didn't realize in those days that the most important thing was to deliver on time. It wasn't to make a good movie. The second important thing was to make a good movie. So we held it back and we had, we made changes by the time it was, uh, ready for release. You know, a lot of the people at, um, universal had moved on. So we didn't have the same people who were, you know,

promoting it when we originally started and a bunch of new brims were in there sweeping away. And we basically got a very limited release. It was barely a release. It was a sort of a test. It was tested on a few different markets. Boston was one of them. We went down to Boston and it was, unfortunately it was during a time where all the schools were out.

And, uh, I think it was, it was, um, exam time or something. I don't know. The theater was empty. I mean, there were five people in the theater. I can't tell you how disappointing that was. It was heartbreaking. And, um, and that really, uh, well, I went off to Nantucket with Melanie and we'd, and we've, you know, we, we just hung out there for a, for a few weeks cause I couldn't figure out what, what next to do. Um,

it was, it was incredibly, incredibly disappointing. But you know what? I mean it's become a fan. Well at the fan expo, you know, you'll be there and you'll be signing copies of the rather unusual adventures of Ice Cream Girl and Mr. Licorice. And I will tell you, most people, I mean there's a few other touch points before we get to this graphic novel that I want to touch on, but I think a lot of people are gonna want to talk about Rock and Rule. I remember it well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was four years of blood, sweat and pencil drippings, you know, I mean, it was something that was, as I say, it was more like an art school and we were all teaching ourselves how to do it. For instance, one of the things we did, we had an actor actually work with the animators in working out scenes, in just exploring relationships between the characters. So bottom line is we didn't have a fully finished script.

We had writers in the studio who were working on sections, writing sections after we'd kind of workshop them in, you know, with the animators. And it was just a most unusual way to make a film. It's very unique. Well, let me share with the audience. Okay. So the budget was $8 million and you tell me if this is accurate. That's why you're here. I read that it made a little more than $30,000 at the box office. That's true.

So you go to Nantucket. I feel like there's a poem in there and you went to Nantucket, I feel like there's a poem in there, you went to Nantucket, something about a bucket, but you go, you're, you, you licking your wounds? Are you basically like, does this put you into any kind of a spiral? Like you're doubting yourself? Like you bet the $8 million. Absolutely. Absolutely. You spend four years on something you believe is going to be huge and so excited about it and then nothing happens. It's very disappointing. I mean it really was a point where we had to rethink the company. Melvin. Yeah yeah. Wow. Patrick Michael and I had to sort of really you

know put our heads together and think well what are we going to do? Are we going to send everybody home? Close down? You know, we've got 120, 200 people working for us and relying on, on, on a salary. So, yeah, are there considerations to, uh, reduce payroll? I don't know. Uh, there was, yes, of course, a lot of people we had to, we had to, to, um, you know, trim down the company quite a bit. But we decided to move on and Michael actually came up with a brilliant idea of doing a Care Bear movie. And he went to American Greeting Cards and those characters from Cleveland

that owned the underlying rights and brought back a contract to make the Care Bears movie, which of course went through the roof. Oh, the Care Bear movie saves nilvana. And that's the reason you're driving that nice motorcycle right now. Okay, let's let's get into the Care Bears here. Let's listen to this time machine, this wayback machine. Up above the clouds lies Carrolot, the home of the warm and lovable Care Bears.

Come and visit Carrolot and join Tenderheart, I'm Tenderheart, a Care Bear. Grumpy Bear, Baby Hugs and Tugs, and all the rest of the Care Bear family in their most thrilling adventure of all time, the Care Bears Movie. Share in the fun and excitement as the Care Bears explore intriguing new lands full of music, laughter and merriment, and heartwarming feelings. You'll meet some new friends who'll help you discover that caring has never been so much fun.

But be careful, evil spells are working about. And they're just waiting for a chance to undo all the good that the Care Bears have done. And that's only the beginning. Even Carola is no longer safe. Good luck, Care Bears! We're counting on you. is no longer safe. Good luck, Care Bears! We're counting on you! Every beat of your heart will take the Care Bears and their friends

one step closer to their ultimate challenge. Care Bears, stand! Will all their love and caring stop a shadowy spirit from stealing away every feeling in the world? Join the Care Bears and all their friends and you'll share the chuckle, a cheer, you'll jump up and cheer! The Care Bears Movie brings someone you care about. The Care Bears Movie. Yeah, we got a call from Patrick one Saturday afternoon and he said, you won't believe what I'm

seeing. There's a lineup, three blocks of people crowding around to watch a movie. You know what movie it is? What do you mean? It's the Care Bear movie. It was huge and I think it was one of the first theatrical films that was aimed at young children. I remember the Care Bear. So it was really exciting for kids to go, to go to the theater. It was a surprise hit though.

So I guess you lowered expectations after being kind of bullish on rock and roll. And then a surprise hit. Exactly, exactly. Okay, and then you're off to the races because now you took Nelvana Public and then you can just start creating your own shows and then at some point, Chorus Entertainment

is gonna come knocking and give you some real money for this enterprise. A lot of things happen in that one sentence. That was like about 15 years. You know I know if I went if I dove as deep see I can't you'll be here literally for seven hours if I dive as deep into everything that no Vanna did as I did with rock and roll but I will ask you so is it when do you start your relationship your intimate relationship with Melly Fresh. Is that, uh, is she in this Care Bears movie?

She is. Yeah. She, uh, has, has a few, um, vocal moments in it, but going back to rock and roll, she was in rock and roll as well. I mean, she has a song, she has a great song. You know what? I got to go re-listen to my Melly Fresh, uh, Toronto mic'd episode because it was so packed full of details and I had a lot of questions about her car for goodness sake So I remember I remember the car. Oh, yeah Where's that car today? unfortunately, it's I think it's a block of Crushed metal that's about three feet by three feet. That's a damn shame. That's a damn shame here here

Let me take let me let you catch your breath. And then I got a couple of points I just want to ask you about before I find out how much cash you got from chorus entertainment. Let me see that that accounting slip that I told you to bring, but let me just give you a few gifts Clive you ready? And then I want to hear all about the rather unusual adventures of the ice cream girl and Mr. Licorice because it looks amazing. Claude, do you like baseball? No. No interest in baseball? No. Never even got sucked into the World Series years that the Toronto Blue Jays had in the early 90s? No, I find it really boring. Boring sports? Really boring. Is that because you weren't raised with it? You got to have it as a child. Yeah, I wasn't raised with it. But I mean I was raised with cricket, which is also really boring and

Football which I'm not very good at. Oh like soccer football soccer. Yeah. Yeah, which I actually I Like I like soccer, but I'm not a sports person. I was never a sports person. No, you were an art person. Okay, so But thank you. This is the history of Toronto Maple Leafs baseball They play at Christie Pitts. And like I said in the intro, they qualified for the playoffs this season. So they have a few more regular season games and then playoff time. But free to go to the park at Christie Pitts and fill the hill and take in a great caliber of baseball and have a hot dog and have a Leafs logger beer.

Do you drink beer, Clive? No. So you're 0 for 2. I'm keeping score over here. 0 for 2 Clive. Does Melly Fresh drink beer? No. No. Okay. Do you have any neighbors or friends who drink beer? Probably I do. I'm sure I do. I'm sure I could use these. Fresh craft beer from Great Lakes Brewery. We love Great Lakes on this program. It's all I drink and any of your beer-consuming friends will switch to GLB if you give them a can of fresh craft beer. Sure, I can barter with these. Okay, let's see if you go for three. Ready? Okay. Now I was gonna say, will you die at some point Clive? Hopefully never.

No, no, no. Oh, for three. But I do have a measuring tape from Ridley Funeral Home. They're pillars of this community since 1921. Brad Jones, the funeral director and owner of great, how much have I said of Great Lakes Beer? How much have I had today? None. Of Ridley Funeral Home, he's got a great podcast called Life's Undertaking,

and that measuring tape is all yours, Cleve. I love it, I love it. Okay, we got one. It's green, and I love the, whatever comment you made earlier on about killer. It's a killer funeral home. Killers of the community since 1921. Excellent pillars, killers, pillars. I love that. All right.

And last but not least, actually, I want to just quickly tell you because I can see you'd have old cameras that don't work in some kind of a ad. I'd say at your place, it's probably got its own house. But you need to go to recycle my electronics dot ca put in your postal code and they'll tell you where you can drop off those old electronics to be properly recycled. So the chemicals do not end up in our landfill. Last big question is if you go over here, do you enjoy Italian food? Yeah, I do. Okay. So the best, the most delicious Italian food you can buy in a store is from Palma pasta, and they have sent over a large lasagna.

It's in my freezer right now, and you can enjoy a large Palma pasta lasagna. Everybody knows Palma pasta, feeds FOTM's. They're in Mississauga and Oakville, but go to palmapasta.com for more information. May I ask you, Clive, I've been wondering when I booked you, I was like, I need to ask you about you ready for this. I bet you, cause this is the other thing I think all these nerds are going to be coming up and talking to you about when they meet you at fan Expo, which is like a week away, but the star Wars Christmas special, is that what it was called? No holiday special. Okay. The star wars holiday special.

I've seen it. It's tough to see because I don't think, um, I don't think George Lucas wants it seen, but you can find it on YouTube and stuff. Okay. But the best part without a doubt, the best part of the star wars holiday special is the cartoon. Did you have anything to do with that cartoon? Clive A. Smith? Of course, of course, of course I directed it. Um, okay, slow down. Hold on. They don't bear. Okay. You directed and I don't know if they call it a Wookie's Christmas. I think that's what it's called. And this is where you meet Boba Fett for the first time. That's right. And you directed that. Yeah. Boba Fett was, um, was being introduced, uh, slowly. Um, it hadn't been shared. It wasn't in part of the, uh, star Wars, um, world yet, but, um, it was written into this, um, short piece, which George wrote.

So we got the full script and we got a black and white film of Boba Fett, which was a, it was somebody who had war had put on a costume, like the first kind of costume, the first rough, if so to speak, walking around a garden somewhere in LA. So it was just a short piece of film. So we use that as the basis for the design of Boba Fett. So we actually designed Boba Fett. Frank Nissen, who was my designer and my

co-director in a lot of things, did the final drawings for that. And that was how Boba Fett was born. And he was featured in this short piece that we did for the Wookie's Christmas. So the Wookie's Christmas itself is it was a two hour. Two hour special. Oh yeah, that's not always holiday special live action right? Sure. sure and and the short piece that we did was when Boba Fett comes home to his family and he has a gift for his child and it's it's basically a little visit video game player and that's that was where we see the do you have a copy of

the Star Wars holiday special I have have it somewhere. Okay, so do you ever considered having friends and family over for viewings? Don't tell George Lucas you do that, but I this is kind of one of those infamous things where George Lucas kind of disowns it like and again I've seen it by far the best part of this special is your cartoon. I think George agrees with that. I mean George contacted us to do that based on a Cosmic Christmas, based on seeing the Cosmic Christmas. He loved it. Yeah. Like you never know who's gonna see what, right? And it was very interesting because Cosmic Christmas was, it was not a, it wasn't a wide release. It wasn't a, what do you call it, a major release.

It was done to all the little small stations were playing it. So syndication, syndication. So just to see it was amazing that he actually caught it. It is amazing. Hey, can I ask you a question in the live stream real quick? So Rob is on the live stream and he goes, I see on Clive's Wiki page and we did address this that it's

because on your wiki page, it says you worked for, uh, Hales and I'm sorry, Hallis and bachelor, but you said you worked for like a company that worked for Hallis. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was called group two animation. That was the company in Richmond. Okay. So we, I'm just shouting out a rosy gray Tio. There is a Wiki update to make cause it's wrong. Okay. But this is what Rob wrote. One of my favorite animated shows, which they created was dodo the kid from outer space. They get that name, right? Dodo the kids. Did Clive work on this series? No, can't take credit for that one. No. Okay. And Mike writes in gotta ask him about Nel Van as attempt to produce an animated Doctor

Who series in the early nineties. Ed, this is, I think he's talking about Ed Conroy from retro Ontario has done some good research on this, but it would be cool to hear direct from Clive. Can you say anything about an attempt to produce an animated Doctor Who series in the early nineties? We did do a lot of development on, we did development on a lot of shows and Doctor Who series in the early 90s? We did do a lot of development on, we did development on a lot of shows and Doctor Who was definitely one of the properties

that we were interested in doing. But as I say, we, you know, we develop, for every project that we actually made, we probably developed about 20. So that was one that for whatever reason, and I think you'd have to talk to Michael to get more detail about why it didn't happen. Okay, fair enough. And before we just leave the Star Wars universe, I want to just play

a bit of this because I Just your relationship with the George Lucas universe, the Star Wars universe, didn't end with that cartoon because droids and Ewoks are also a couple of Nelvana properties. Yeah, yeah. We picked up from after doing that special, we did several series. It was called the C-3PO R2-D2 Ewoks Adventure Hour. And we did one series with C3PO and R2D2 where those were the main characters and yet they went through different adventures in different parts of the universe and there would be new characters and

new hardware introduced all the time and C3PO and R2D2 were the with the kind of the thread to take us through all those adventures. Wild and again we're going to get now I realize we got to get to this graphic novel I want to talk about so I won't ask for a lot of details about things like the Edison twins. Uh-huh yeah what about them that was great that was our first first animation series. I've been in a live action series. Bob Segarene, the Iceman, performed the opening theme. That's right. Yes. And he's no longer with us. So Bob Segarene, very sad. But he's also, yeah, shout out to Ridley Funeral Home. He's in FOTM, we lost. But I will say that my buddy Stu Stone would often appear in the Edison Twins,

I believe, like he was like a child actor who would appear. Edison Twins, a Babar, Tintin, Little Bear. I will just, cause I have you here and because I'm trying so hard to get this guy in Toronto Mike, real quick, just a taste of this theme song? Hey, it's Franklin. Coming over to play. Do you think Beyonce was inspired by this song on her recent country music? It's very likely. I mean, it's funny about that, isn't it? Bruce Colburn, of course, is the singer of the song. Did you have any role in getting Bruce to do the theme song for Franklin?

Well, Bernie Finkelstein was, I've known Bernie for ages. You know, he just had a birthday. I think he turned 80 maybe yesterday or the day before. Was it? Oh, cool. Okay, shout out to Bernie. He's a good guy too. Absolutely. Hi Bernie. And Franklin, just a massive hit. I have a 22 year old. So there was a lot of Franklin, a lot of little bear in the house. Like these are staples and Elvanna. So the story of Nelvana, you, Patrick and Michael built up Nelvana, shout out to the Care Bear movie, all these great properties, you know, Babar, even just reading

Babar, I'm haunted by the poisonous mushroom. I'm still afraid of mushrooms, I think because of Babar. That's all I need to talk to my therapist about that but Clive why why did you decide it's time to sell Nelvana so is it just time to cash out because chorus offers you some real money in 2000 well we had been working with chorus chorus was a big um client of ours so we had worked with them for a long time and they were very interested in getting into production. And, you know, we went public in the mid nineties because we obviously needed to fund our productions.

And so we were doing, we were doing very well. But it was, you know, it was, it was a really good offer. I mean, I had been thinking, I guess for quite a few years that it was, you know, probably time to move on. I don't know if I express this very openly yet, but when this opportunity came along, we all thought that it was probably a very smart thing to do and to put Nelvana into the hands of somebody who's going to really move it forward and do something with it.

The total, I think they paid $540 million. So there's you and 40 and you and two, uh, two co-founders. I guess the bulk of that is split between you. Uh, oh, good Lord. No, we only, we, we, we were a public company. So we, we only own this is what you're here for. I don't, this is a world foreign to me. Like you did very well.

Yeah, we did. Yeah, we did well. We did well, but, but you can't take that number and divide that by three. I mean, we only owned a portion of the company at that point. You did all right. Now, you could have just, I guess, in 2001 when you do leave the company,

because I guess you stick around for a year after you sell the company to Corus. And then you decide it's time to retire. But that was a long time ago. This is an early year, almost 25 years ago to Chorus. Yeah. And then you decide it's time to retire. But you know, that was a long time ago. This is a early year, almost 25 years ago or whatever that was. You didn't do a very good job at retiring because here you are about to be at a fan expo and you're going to be talking about a new graphic novel, the rather unusual adventures of Ice Cream

Girl and Mr. Licrish. Could you please tell me like where does this idea come from and how did this come to be? I can't, I can't any excuse me. Sorry. I need some water. I think you know what?

Something to drink. I'm okay. I'm going to get you a glass of water. I'm going to run up and get you a glass of water and you could start the origin story. They just talk about me because I'm not going to fix this imposed. So you can go and I'll be back in like Two shakes of a limps. Okay. All right. All right. Okay. So why do you've got okay? We can talk about something completely different While he's gone, he's not it. No

Okay, so The rather unusual device of mr. Licorice ice cream ice cream girl. Mr. Licorice Started off as a film project project so it was a screenplay and I started writing this about 15 years ago. I was in Berlin with Melanie and her sister Lisa who subsequently has passed was very very sick and we were visiting her and trying to get her all a little bit organized so there was that part of it and then there was also a big thank you there was also a big animation event happening just just outside Berlin. Excuse me. Anyway, so there was this mix of somebody

dying, somebody dear dying and then this animation event and I don't know what it was but I was sleeping one afternoon, dozing and I started to have this dream, or kind of a waking dream, and I was starting to dream of, I was putting together certain sequences, and I said to Melanie, I mean, I was half awake,

half asleep, I said, Melanie, can you take some notes? Wow. And she, and she, and I was just rambling. I was just telling her explaining things that I was seeing. I was actually watching a movie. I was watching a film and I didn't know what it all meant, but there were huge sequences that were very, very, very vivid, very clear to me.

And I guess it was the next day that I started to look at her notes and remember what I did. And that was the beginning of this idea that I had, which, and again, I didn't know quite where it was going. I didn't know what it was made of. I just knew there was something there. And I started to build it up in sequences.

And the idea that I had, the idea that sort of came to the forefront was, I guess it's a little bit autobiographical, but the story is about a young man who has a very serious condition that causes him to see the world as a cartoon, which I think a lot of us suffer from, but I certainly did. And so how to turn this story,

how to make sense of this story, why does this character see cartoons? And I threw this idea around for a while and I came up with the idea that, well, he has a cartoon gene. His father, in fact, was an animated character. So how do you get that into a story? How does that work?

Well, there's a backstory, which is a little bit like Pinocchio. If you remember Pinocchio, you know, what's his name? Gepetto? Gepetto had this puppet that he loved so much. Yes. And he built, made this puppet.

So, and it came to life. And so the backstory of the ice cream girl is that stretch is the result of a relationship between his mother and this cartoon character. The cartoon character came to life for a short period of time, enough time to have a relationship in the real world. And then of course he disappears. He starts to go back into like his, his, his earthly features start to, start

to disappear. And as far as his, as stretch his mother is concerned, he's just, you know, he's just fucked off and he's, he's just another, another, you know, bad guy. Okay, let me step in here. So when, you know, bad guy. Okay, let me step in here. So when, you know, it's funny when we talked about rock and roll, we mentioned Iggy Pop. Okay. I always now I'm thinking of, remember when David Bowie went to Berlin and he had those lost years, like just doing Coke in Berlin

where you want any substances when you had this, this movie flashing before you're, you know, 20 years ago or whatever in Berlin. No, you were clean and sober. Okay. Oh yeah. So this movie is flashing and it's, it's kind of autobiographical and you decide that it's taken place in Toronto, like one at Somerset beautifully illustrated who illustrated this graphic novel. Well, there were several Milena,

Lina Shang, Milena Shang and several people I obviously did a lot of work in it. Chuck Gammage was one of my illustrators. Um, but you decided this has taken place in Toronto. Like we're hit right off the top where we can see the tower. Yeah. I thought, well, why not?

Why not? I live in Toronto. We need a city. So we'll make it Toronto. Um, but yeah, so anyway, okay. So I, I, I worked on this screenplay for years and, um, not all the time, obviously, but I would keep going back to it, building it up. And eventually it did come. It did, you know,

I did finish the screenplay and we took it to the American film market a couple of times in California took it to Europe to Berlin to the European film market and obviously TIF several times got a lot of really really good you know reactions to it and some offers. But we just didn't have, we could not raise the kind of funds that we needed to do it properly. And so as a movie, as a screenplay, as a movie, it's kind of on the shelf. It's not gone, it's still a possibility.

I would love to see it as a film. I just decided to do it as a graphic novel to get the story out. Just to have it, to have some kind of conclusion with this project that was in my, it's been in my head and on my computer for 10 years. It needed to get out. So it's out there as a graphic novel and I hope people like it.

It's had some pretty good responses so far. Well several things. So one is so people can pick up a copy of the rather unusual adventures of Ice Cream Girl and Mr. Licorice now. Absolutely. Absolutely. Right. And Fan Expo, which is, I wish I had the dates, but it's pretty soon.

It's the 22nd, 23rd, 24th, and 25th of August. So you're gonna be there signing copies of the book? Is that the plan? I will be there signing copies of the book. Indeed I will, yes. Amazing, Clive. Looking back at this amazing career, you know, we only touched on a few points and it's just wild. I think I could do 90 minutes

on rock and roll to be quite honest. I really deep into that. But what's, what are you most proud of? Is this, this is your baby. You had it in like almost like a, uh, in Berlin, you sort of visualized it and now I can hold it in my hand. Like here it is Clive. Like what is it when you look back at your illustrious career that you look back on and go, that was the, but that's what I'm most proud of. That's a tough question. It's a, it is a very difficult question. I asked the tough questions around here, Clive.

No, I mean, there are so many different, different times of my life that I'm proud of or that I'm not so proud of. I don't know. But there's no sort of, there's no end to this, because it's not like you do something and then you can sit back and go, great, I've done it. Here I am, that's it, because it never is. There's always something else. So while you're finishing something, there's a new thing coming up. So, so when you said

I'm not very good at, at, um, retiring, retiring, right. Uh, you're right. It's, it's, that's impossible to do. That's totally impossible. I couldn't imagine not having a project. In fact, I get very nervous if I'm not doing something. We better make this a film then, okay? Because you need a project on the go. So I was wondering, you know, how do I close this? Of course, I could easily close this with the rather unusual adventures of Ice Cream Girl and Mr. Licorice, or we could revisit some highlight of this wonderful run you had at Nelvana before chorus. chorus by the way you don't have any chorus stock do you? Not anymore. Good to hear.

I think it's like 10 cents or something right now so that's good to hear. Last question on our way out and this is a question for the Toronto Mike listeners who have heard this question asked many times but there's a reason I'm asking you specifically Clive A. Smith. Is in your opinion, is James B. famous? Well, James B. is certainly famous in Toronto. Toronto famous. Absolutely. Yeah.

Okay. What is your relationship like with James B.? Oh, great. I mean, we've known James for, I've known James for how long? 30. Well, let me see. Zach is 40. We've known James for, I've known James for how long? 30, well let me see, Zach is 40. So we've known James for about 35 years. James V. No, maybe even more, maybe, but maybe.

So did you go back to the look people with James V.? Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I did one of his videos. Did you? Okay, which video? Baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, something. And you know, Ian and Sylvia Tyson's son is a member of Look People. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Of course you know that. Yeah, of course. Of course you know. See, we could do a whole sequel with all the strings that we could play here. The people we know together, yes. James B recently announced he's leaving Jazz FM because he's so damn busy. Like, are you involved with any of these film projects James B is working on? No, I'm letting James do his films.

He makes films the way he makes films, which is fantastic. You know, I don't make films that way. I don't have that kind of that sort of routine of movie making. Clive, how was this for you? I mean you're in some basement in South Etobicoke and you just did, I don't know what we did, 75 minutes or something. I hope this was great for you. It was fantastic. Thank you so much. It was really great being here. And taking that photo I want people to see the rock and roll hat Yes, and the great t-shirt you got on there before you roll away. I think it's cool I had the Jeff woods here last week

I think it was and he he rode a motorcycle so I love it when people bike here like when they motorcycle here It's all good and Clive man I gotta say what a pleasure it was to sit down and have a deep dive conversation with you. Make sure you say hello to your wife for me. I will say I will indeed. So thank you, Mike. It was very good being here too. Thank you so much. And that, and that water wasn't free. Okay. That was a hundred dollar glass Clive. So just leave, leave the money on the counter. And that brings us to the end of our 1535th show. I'm all over the place at Toronto Mike. Is there anywhere like do you even bother

with social media when you're Clive A Smith or is there a website you want to direct people to where they can learn more about the book? Yes, the book has a has its own Instagram site. It's ice cream girl Ice cream girl. What's that low thing? And your score underscore? Comic book ice cream girl underscore comic book When you were making rock and roll you didn't know you'd have to deal with Underscores in in social media. That's true. That's true. No, I mean I'm not a big social media person but I'm just obviously just to promote this book I'm having to learn all those new ways and means of doing things. Well I'll tag you and I put this

on Instagram I'm at Toronto.Mike there and I'm at Toronto Mike on Twitter and go to Toronto Mike com to find out more. Will Melanie Melody, will she, will Melly Fresh, I don't ever know which way to call her, I like both names. Melly Fresh. Melly Fresh. Will Melly Fresh listen to this episode of Toronto Mike? I'm sure she will. Okay, I need Melly. Text me a review and let me know how Clive did. And I'm sorry I didn't get him water sooner, I know that's bad on me, I'm a terrible host. Much love to all

who made this possible. That is Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, RecycleMyElectronics.ca, the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team, and Ridley Funeral Home. The next episode is a huge surprise. I don't want to tell people who are my guests. This is a massive surprise for the listenership. I will though tell people when it is recording, going to my calendar right now.

Okay, it's actually, it turns out I have an episode of Peter Gross on Monday morning, but then on Thursday evening at live.torontomic.com, a very very top secret special episode of Toronto Mike. Everybody should gather 8 p.m. live.torontomike.com, a very, very top secret special episode of Toronto Mike. Everybody should gather 8 p.m. live.torontomike.com on Thursday. See you all then. And I'll play this guitar just the best that I can Maybe I'm not and maybe I am But who gives a damn because Everything is coming out Rosie and gray

Yeah, the wind is cold But the smell of snow warms me today And your smile is fine and it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is rosy and gray