Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Joel Greenberg: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1555

Episode Date: September 26, 2024

In this 1555th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Dora Mavor Moore Award and Chalmers Award winning actor, director, choreographer, playwright and teacher Joel Greenberg about his decades of theatre direction and his recent pivot to podcasting with Life in Stages. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, The Advantaged Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada, and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Welcome to episode 1555 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. A fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. The Advantage Investor podcast from

Raymond James Canada. Learn how to plan, invest and live smarter. RecycleMyElectronics.ca, committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. And Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. In addition to my pride and joy, my passion, my fifth child, the podcast you're listening to right now, Toronto Miked, I produce podcasts for others. One gentleman who reached out with a desire to podcast is Joel Greenberg.

We spoke on the phone one day, and next thing you know, I was producing 11 episodes with him for his new series, Life in Stages. Much as his name suggests, Joel was green. As you'll hear, the man has been directing theatrical productions for decades, but a podcast was outside his comfort zone. I identified with this immediately. I remember in 2012 being in the exact same spot. The only way to improve is to put in your reps.

And I witnessed the growth of Joel as a host, extracting stories from his interesting guests. I'm honored to be a part of Life in Stages. The first episode of Life in Stages dropped earlier today, and we'll drop a new episode every Thursday morning for 11 weeks. I urge you to do precisely three things. One, subscribe to Life in Stages wherever you get your podcasts. Two, consider helping Joel finance a second series. He's got a Patreon at patreon.com slash life in stages.

And three, listen to this conversation I had with Joel and learn more about this wonderful man. Before we begin, be sure to drink your fresh craft beer from Great Lakes Brewery. Eat delicious pasta from Palma Pasta. Palma's Kitchen will be hosting us on November 30th from noon to 3 p.m. You're all invited. Recycle your electronics at RecycleMyElectronics.ca. Learn how to plan and invest smarter with the Advantage to Invest Your Podcast from Raymond James Canada.

And last but certainly not least, pay tribute without paying a fortune at Ridley Funeral Home. Now, here's my conversation with Joel Greenberg, host of Life in Stages. The Joel Greenberg elevator pitch sounds like this. A co-founder of Studio 180, Joel is a Chalmers and Dora award-winning playwright and director who has directed productions across Canada. Now Joel, I've listened to every episode of Life in Stages, at least the ones we've recorded so far, and I've learned a great deal about you, but now I want to dig in a

little and flesh out your story. Okay. You're from Montreal. That's right. See these are all the nuggets I picked up along the way. Yep. So take me back to Montreal, like when do you get the bug that you wanna be a part of the theater experience, the live stage? In grade four, at the school I went to, a public school,

a woman named Beryl Lowe appeared one day and she was part of what was then something called Montreal Repertory Theatre. And I actually have no idea how long it existed, but it certainly existed when I was in grade four. And her job was to come into the school and do drama things with students. And we did a play. and I remember that I played a Chinese emperor and had all the appropriate makeup right for that which was we just did it and I I'm not sure what it was or what it was but I know that that was formative and you know for in grades four five and seven I worked with her again in grade six. My teacher would not allow me to do that activity

because she wanted me to improve my academics and I was miserable. And I proved to her that I, she said, you see, you could do it, you could actually get this, you could do really well. And I said, yeah, well, thanks. But, so that was it. And growing up in yeah, well, thanks. But so that was it. And growing up in Montreal also,

there was no, there were no theater courses in high school or anything like that. And I was just desperate is the right word. I mean, I was just, it was something, I have no idea of why, but it was something I just knew I had to do and I couldn't wait to get to some stage in my life where I could just learn about acting.

I mean, acting was the only thing I didn't realize there was anything other than acting. And then that's what I studied. That's where, when I went to university, that's what I studied and that was why I studied it. Now, I just heard you speak with a guest about her child went to the Atobicoke School of Arts. Yes.

Was there an equivalent in Montreal? Absolutely not. No, there was nothing. I mean, if there was, there was something called the Dorothy Davis and Violet Walters, I forget what, these two women who ran a program and I remember begging my mother You know I said I want to do that too. It was so far from where we lived and it never happened, right? That was the only thing I was at all aware of that you know was had anything that would have Given me what I felt I needed so where do you scratch that itch in high school?

You're basically in the high school productions? Oh, and there were hardly any. I mean, there were a couple of Gilbert and Sullivan. Oh, this is funny. Yeah, when I was in high school, high school in Montreal ended in grade 11. So we went from grade 11 to university. So I-

Really? Yeah. See, there's a mind blow because we literally did a fifth year. Now they don't do this. Oh, I know. You know, see there's a mind blow because we literally did a fifth year. Now they don't do this. Oh, I know. You know, but I had a fifth year. Yeah. But you were doing three years, four years. Oh, you so I started in grade eight. Okay. It was four years of high school. It was before Quebec started the Cézette program, which was a kind of intermediate intermediate place. So grade 11, I finished university when I was 20.

And I mean, because everybody else did, it felt right. When I think of it now, I said, Jesus, I mean, how does anybody know what, I mean, I knew what I wanted to do. Anyway, no, there was nothing. I was in a couple of, I was a sailor, an HMS pinafore, and then we did this operetta called Princess Ida. I had no idea what it was, but I was one sailor in HMS Pinafore, and then we did this operetta called Princess Ida. I had no idea what it was,

but I was one of the three fellows who in disguise broke into a woman's college. That was the premise. And I do remember being so determined to act that, and I remember the audience laughing a lot, but I do remember one teacher pulling me aside before one performance and said something like, and this is true, you have to show me what you're gonna do tonight

so that we know what to expect. And I didn't really understand what that meant. I believe upstaging was the, And I didn't really understand what that meant. You know, I believe upstaging was the thing. And then the last year of high school, they did Oklahoma. I at least knew what that was. And I of course wanted to be the song and dance lead. I did not look like a lead or a song and dance. I could dance, but nobody knew that.

And I didn't really have the, uh, the physical where I would call to do that. So I was cast as the Persian salesman and had my really stupid accent and saying, it's a sca it's a scandal, it's an outrage, a song deleted from the film of Oklahoma, but which I sang and that was it. I mean, that was what I did and there was no stopping me. Really, there was none. It's fascinating to me,

cause when I listen to your great guests and we'll talk more about life and stages later, but they are all referring to you as a director. So clearly you're known as this great director. But here you are. You're wanting to act. You're doing some singing. It sounds like I don't know where you learn to dance, but you're dancing.

Yeah. Oh, I was doing everything. I mean, I was performing. That was all we were a choreographer for a while. You know, it wasn't, you know, anything that was sort of musical staging and musical theater that didn't require real technique. I did a lot. I mean, I did a lot of that. I wanted to do everything. And I was in a program.

It was a liberal arts program that had fabulous facilities and allowed students huge freedom to do whatever they wanted to do. So I was, you know, the more projects I was involved in, the happier I was, really, eventually, really knocking myself out, just wearing myself down, saying like, how many more projects? If I'm doing five at the same time, that's not enough.

So by the time I finished university, for reasons I never... I tried to understand but couldn't. I started to enjoy rehearsing much more than performing. And that was a real shock to me because that isn't I had never prepared for that or even anticipated that and why is that you know I realized that rehearsal was I think I was very fortunate to have to work on one project with a student a senior level student who was older than the rest of us and was the most interesting director that I'd had. I mean, until then, directing, I don't even know what directing meant. But this particular woman wrote a play.

It was an original play and I was in it. And rehearsal was really discovering things and trying things and changing things. And I really had no experience with that. It was mostly, before that it was learn your lines, do what you did. Somebody might say, you're doing too much or it was really like accessory directing comments,

and I was fascinated by the fact that it could be done in a different way, and I was, when I say that I was shocked, I mean, it's absolutely, in my fourth year at university, I just sort of stopped in the middle of fourth year, and, because by then, I thought, well, you know, I've wanted to be an actor, and acting is then I thought well you know I've I've wanted to be an actor then acting is what I've been telling myself I'm gonna do and

anybody who would listen right and now I'm not sure and that that really threw me and so I just stopped going to school I mean I just couldn't I had no idea what I was supposed to do with this new information because I wasn't prepared to give up something that I felt I'd been spending years dreaming about at the same time I Wasn't you know I had no idea how this was gonna What was next or how to do it and that was around the time that I I moved to Toronto from Montreal Okay, I was gonna ask you what brought you to Toronto. Well, you know, in my last, I guess in my last year in Montreal, I realized, I don't

know why it took me that long, but I realized Montreal, as an Anglophone in Montreal, there wasn't even the possibility of a theatre career. And I wasn't thinking about anything beyond theatre, I mean film and television, I mean they were sort of interesting. And actually as a student, I had been hired a couple of times by people, there was a small CBC unit in Montreal. So I had done a couple of TV things that came to me.

I had no, I mean, they just sort of arrived and they were, for me, they were horrible experiences because I had no idea how do I like what a camera needs I was still on stage right and watching myself on one of those two just horrified and saying oh my god could somebody not have said like pull back about a thousand feet or, but nobody did. And then the other experience I had was there was this show

called Comedy Cafe that was a weekly comedy show. And the writers were two really nice guys. And they approached me after they saw something I did in a student production and said, one of our four actors is moving we would like you to replace him. I of course that well of course now you know my career every what what was why was I concerned it's all happening and and so I was thrown into I mean this was just in I don't know what they were thinking the other three actors first of all

were a lot older than I was and they'd been working together as a group for about five just in, I don't know what they were thinking. The other three actors, first of all, were a lot older than I was and they'd been working together as a group for about five years on this weekly comedy show. And there I was. Oh, I was just paralyzed. You know, you can edit this out. But I remember getting the script and one of the characters that I was assigned was a football coach who was to be extraordinarily effeminate and was going to, as even as the writers described, would be wearing a football jersey with shoulder pads and tassels and even reading it. I said, so at that point I was probably, I don't know, 20 maybe? I read it and I just died and I said,

oh, I can't, oh, I can't do this, this, ugh. And I had a costume fitting and I went for the costume fitting and the woman who was doing it sort of handed me this grotesque thing. I said, oh, I'm not wearing that. She said, well, you're playing that character. I said, no, I'm not.

I won't do it. And I wouldn't. And so you can imagine how warmly I was greeted on the first day when everybody is together. And the only saving grace, you know, at lunch break each day, the other three actors would go off and I would sort of sit and pretend to be busy with my script.

Oh, just leave me alone, please. I'm doing nothing here. Why am I here? They should fire, they will fire me, they should fire me. And the producer's assistant came over to me one day and said, don't worry, as soon as we're in the, they used to film this live in a hotel ballroom, she said, as soon as we're there, it will be so busy,

and the producer will be so, so focused on the thing that you'll be left alone. And that actually sort of helped me, because when I first met the producer director, the writers introduced me to him before this whole thing started and he said, can you do something for me? I thought I had the job. I said, what do you mean? He said, well, show me, you know, do something, do something funny. And I, you know, I just did not, I wasn't the guy who could do that. So I don't know what I did. And he said,

don't fucking act. Be funny. I said, Oh my God. So the, yeah, so that's, that was, that was the end of my television career. So there, there you are. That's a long story, which you can- No, are you kidding me? That was great. Now I'm thinking of the film, Going Down the Road, right? So, from Nova Scotia, they're going to Toronto for the jobs. You're coming from Montreal because we got theatre and jobs, playwright jobs, we got directing jobs. So what happens when you get to Toronto? Do you find there are stage jobs galore waiting for Joel Greenberg. I didn't know honestly I didn't know what on earth Toronto was. I knew one person. The person I knew was the woman I

had just married. We were both quite young. Okay. But we're still married so that's good. Okay congratulations and you just had a like a milestone anniversary. Indeed 53 years. Okay that's a milestone. That's the number of Herbie the love bug. Okay. So that's good. Okay. Congratulations. And you just had a, like a milestone anniversary. Indeed. 53 years. Okay. That's a milestone. That's the number of her be the love bug. Okay. So that's significant. Oh, that is. I know I will, I will hold onto that now. Like big, big Herbie fan here. Okay. So no, I came to Toronto. I had no idea what Toronto was. Uh, I had been here once. I came here actually to audition for some TV show, pilot thing, that a friend of mine had told me about. And I remember waiting around, this was when CBC had an office somewhere near Allen Gardens. And I remember getting to Toronto. I had no idea what was going on. I mean, when I talk about it now, I'm sort of impressed

by the guts I had to get on a plane to go somewhere I'd never been to find my way to wherever the CBC office was to walk into this office and I read things. You're like, I'm Joel Greenberg, I'm here from Montreal and I'm here for your actor in jobs. And I'm gonna get this show show because that's what that's. Do you remember the name of the show? I don't. I don't. I remember.

And that show became the King of Kensington. Indeed it did not. But, but, um, so I did that and I went home and I never heard of the name again, but that was, uh, yeah. So when I came, when I actually moved to Toronto, I was, I decided, uh, I went to teachers college. I said, I've got to do, I should be able to do something. Oh, you mean you needed a plan B? Correct. Okay.

And that made me very nervous because I had always felt if I have a plan B, that's something that I can become a default. Right. and become a default. And I really was aware of that. And through university, I didn't allow myself, I really, I did not allow myself to become interested in anything that wasn't theater. I had to take some other non-theater courses and I did them and I certainly did not do well in any of them, but I did them, I completed them.

But all I wanted to do was theater. So as some people have pointed out to me, that was a good thing because I had a focus. I said, well, on the one hand it was, on the other, I didn't allow myself to become distracted, as I said. So yeah, so I went to Teachers College and that was a one year,

one year of hell. Not that I think Teachers Colleges can be very good. It was when it was a one year program and oh, I'd never done so much busy work in my life. Assignments and things like, oh for God's sake, this is, let me teach. You know, that, when we did practice teaching sessions, I said, well, that I can, you know, that's interesting,

and that's hard, and I don't know that I wanna do this, but I won't know it until I try. So that's what I did when I got here, and at the same time, I had no idea what the theater scene was. I mean, the theater scene in Toronto, I think, was really just beginning to open up. I remember seeing Leaving Home at Tarragon Theatre

and Les Belcers and Factory Theatre had recently started and there was Toronto Free Theatre. So there were theatres and I called, I wrote it, didn't take me, like nothing, I had nothing to bring to those people. And I saw, I remember seeing the farm show at Pass Mariah that I'd never seen anything. I'd never seen that kind of theater.

The year that I was new, I'd be coming to Toronto. I went to see the Chicago seven at Toronto Workshop Productions, George Lescombe's company, and that knocked me out. I said, now that is something I could do. I want to do. Whether I can do it, I have no idea what they're doing, but it is, it's staggering. I remember calling Toronto Workshop Productions and thinking, you know, I'll never get to speak to George Lescombe, who of course answered the phone because he was, you know, I didn't know anything about how these theatres operated, that they were

barely functioning. So I called him and said, I'm really interested, and I'm interested in being an assistant director. I want to learn how you do this. And I went to meet him and he said, and this was at the Toronto Workshop Space, which is now Buddies in Bad Times Theatre on Alexander Street, and he said, and this was at the Toronto Workshop space, which is now Buddies in Bad Times Theatre on Alexander Street, and he said, it will go down there on the stage, do something for me.

And again, I just didn't, it's like he didn't say, stop, don't fucking act, he was nicer. But it was the same thing, I didn't have the smarts to say, no, that's not why I'm here. So he said, do this, so I I did it and I did something from a play I had been in fairly recently and he thanked me and that was my my moment with George Luscombe So I wrote to community theater groups and I thought well, I'm gonna be in school. I've got to do something I don't know anybody and I con connected with a

community group and they wrote back and I Directed I think was guys and dolls something I mean with You know a small community group, but is this your first direction? Is the first time you direct no in Toronto no I was directing in Montreal and the thing about Montreal that You know that made Toronto slightly disorienting is that in Montreal. And the thing about Montreal that, you know,

that made Toronto slightly disorienting is that in Montreal, the student community was a very integral part of what there was in the English theater community because there wasn't very much. So McGill and Sir George, I went to Sir George Williams, it's now Concordia, because I could actually get a degree in theater.

And at McGill, although it's got a hugely active student life, I wanted it to be real, as I saw it. And yeah, so I had directed a fair amount in Montreal and choreographed and acted and did everything. And in fact, I remember one of the critics for, it was for the Gazette, one of the two papers, one of the two English papers, had been very generous in their praise of me

and made reference to the fact that I was, I was a dependable, you can go and see Joel's work, it's really great. So when I had that, I brought that with me to Toronto and that became a memory very quickly that I could sort of hold onto occasionally. So in Toronto it was completely different. But this community group, I did Guys and Dolls

and the thing that I couldn't have known was that the man who played Nathan Detroit, a man named Jerry Simmons, who by day was a clothing manufacturer, and he was absolutely, if you know what Guys and Dolls is, I mean he was a real Damon Runyon kind of guy. He was Nathan Detroit. He was in that play and two or three years later he was the man who backed my first professional show in Toronto. And it happened because this man's daughter was also in Guys and Dolls and Merle became a very good friend and she said, you know, you should speak to my dad, he loves theater.

Wow. And that is how my professional career in Toronto began, at Theater in the Dell. And in a recent conversation with Janelle Hutchison, we talked about our time at Theater in the Dell doing a snappy review called What's a Nice Country Like You doing in a state like this, but that wasn't my, that was my first performing at the Dell, but I started at Theatre in the Dell directing and choreographing Dames

at Sea, a kind of thirties musical parody of the Busby Berkeley musicals. Dames at Sea. Tell me, where was Theater in the Dell? Theater in the Dell is on. Oh, it's still there. Yeah, well no. It's now a hasty market, but the building is still there. It was a Greek restaurant after it was Theater in the Dell. It's on Elm Street.

So right across the street is Mount Sinai Hospital. And Kitty Corner is Sick Kids, where we would go for lunch to the cafeteria. They had a really good cafeteria. And Theater in the Dell was really an iconic, I think it was iconic. On the street level, it was a restaurant bar, the upstairs, oh, I forget what they called that room.

It had the room, which was the cabaret, had a name. It wasn't the Oak Room, but it was something like that. And I, shortly after I came to Toronto, I went and saw a show that was there. I thought, this is amazing. I mean, this, I've never, ever seen anything like it. You know, 80 or 90 seats, people sitting at little cabaret tables

and a stage, postage-size stage. And so we did, I did Dames at Sea, cast of six, musician, stage manager, I mean it was nuts. But it was so exciting to feel that I was legitimized. So that was the start of my- Dames at Sea. Well, I've actually, so I've seen a list of productions that you've directed and it's very lengthy. From Dames at Sea to Indecent.

Yes, yeah. And in a moment I'm gonna ask you about, you know, some of your favorites, like some of these productions you're most proud of, but a couple of quick notes that pop in my head. One is you could become a teacher with one year of teachers college back pop in my head. One is you could become a teacher with one year of teachers college back then. Oh yeah. See, I don't, I think, I think I knew that

if when I was at this stage of my life, uh, pun intended. Okay. But I remember if you had a university degree, you could get it. I think two years of teachers college could make you a teacher. It became, yeah, they, I don't know when that happened. I mean it moved from one year to two years. I don't know when that happened. I mean, it moved from one year to two years. I don't know when. At some point. When I was there, it was one year. And I have no way of knowing this for sure,

but had it been two years, I don't know that I would have done it. Right. Maybe I would, I don't know. That's a bridge too far. I thought so, yeah. Like one year is really how I became acclimated to Toronto. And I remember, in fact, when we got our first teaching, our practice teaching assignments,

at that time, the college wanted you to do at least one out of town booking, and you could make exceptions. And so I said, I had recently moved here, I was recently married, I really didn't wanna be out, I wasn't anticipating that I'd wanna teach out of town. So I forget what the deal was, but I didn't have to go out, but what I did get were my two assignments,

and one of the, this is terrible, one of them was for a school called Central Tech. And when I showed that- I know this school very well. Yes. And when I showed that to various classmates, they looked at me in horror. I thought, what on earth?

And I lived very near the school. I had a great time there, but I was, the setup was so daunting. Like I was gonna be in Blackboard Jungle or something. And it was not, like it wasn't even close. Yeah, so that it was a one year, one year and out you go. And you completed this. Oh yeah.

Okay, cause there we'll get to this, but you have done a wealth of teaching. Yeah. Yeah. Did you need that teacher's college certificate or degree or no? Well, I did to teach public school. Okay. And I taught at a school,

I taught at a school in Scarborough called Steven Leacock Collegiate. It was a great school. And the principal for most of the time that I was there, Anderson, I forget his first name, fabulous, fabulous guy. Had I been in a school like that as a kid where everything was,

like the school supported everything and big sports Of course, but when we did plays they were big and production. Yeah, and Everything was supported. It was um, you know, I realized before I Left I realized this really wasn't where I Was at my best or where I was happiest. Okay, but It was a great it was a great environment for students, I think. Um, yeah. Well, that's a dangerous game you're playing because, uh, you know, teachers get summers off. Like you could have

easily just, I can do this to retirement. This is a, yeah, no, but I could, I mean, yeah, but I couldn't. I enjoyed it and there were a group of students who I became very, very close to. And in fact, I think it was in the summer of, maybe it was 76, one year we did, while I was doing this, I was also directing and choreographing a lot of cabaret theater. And I think back on it and I'm not sure how I was able to do both. And I think some of the people that I worked with at the school wondered much the same thing.

But I did, and Marlene Smith, who produced a lot of the shows that I did, said at one point, and she had seen some of the things I did, the productions I had done at school, and she said, you know, you really should do Godspell. And Marlene had been the company manager of the Toronto Godspell production. So I did it. And it was wonderful.

And the students were a really tight group. And then the year, like the summer that followed that, we did the play at the Tellers Cage, which was in the TD Center, and was another, like a slightly more upscale cabaret dinner theater than The Dell. And so those students did Godspell, that was their summer job. I got called on the carpet by Actors' Equity because the students were certainly not members of it.

I didn't know what was going on. It was insane. Somebody who had worked on a previous show came into the dressing room one night and the word equity was scrawled across the mirrors in red paint. I thought, oh for God's sake. Oh no, it was nuts. Anyway, I risked my much revered membership with equity, but I was spared. I wasn't expelled. So that was, I think that was kind of, I knew after God spelled with the students,

it was wonderful, it was a great experience for them, certainly, but I've gotta be, I really wanna be doing something else. I love teaching, but I said, I need to know what it's like to teach people who really want to be doing this professionally. I mean, I think that will feed me in a very different way. You know, whenever I hear, and again, I'm learning so much about this world.

I become very close with a gentleman named Rob Bruce who did a, he's a very talented musician. He was in the band Spoons. Yeah. And he did, he's done a lot of theater, he's in New York now, he's moved there to work on Broadway basically, he's doing the musical side of a lot of theater and stuff. But whenever, so I'm learning from him and I'm learning from you listening to episodes of Life in Stages and I'm kind of catching up. But whenever I hear the name Godspell, I always think of the production where so many SCTV alumnus

got their start, like Andrea Martin and Eugene Levy. And I think there's a documentary in the works on this moment in time in Toronto where you worked Godspell and then this show called SCTV launched. Yeah, and before SCTV, it was Second City. I mean, Second City moved City created a company in Toronto by the people in Chicago using the Chicago template. It didn't work right away and then it had a rebirth at the

old fire hall, which is where it really took off. And that, absolutely, I mean, God's spell, there was Marty Short, Dave Thomas. I mean, it's an extraordinary list of people who went through that show. And similarly, I think you'd find in in many of the productions of Godspell because there were so many of them. Now that was, that was an amazing time. And I think I heard when you were talking to Janelle Hutchinson, which was a great conversation and people can find that in the feed here for life in stages But she was talking about she was the understudy for Andrea Martin in something like that I'm just so these people are just part of the scene. I suppose at this time. That's right

I was the understudy for Marty short. Oh, you're bearing the lead here Marty short. Okay, that's huge Yeah, well, yeah, and he was in lots of those shows. I mean, we, Nancy and his then wife, or his deceased wife, Nancy Dolman, were in The Apple Tree, a very sweet little musical that we did at Anthony's Dinner Villa, which was at the corner of DuPont and Davenport.

Of course. And with singing waiters, and oh, we just, like there wasn't a room that I didn't work in and many of them closed soon after. Like we did something in the BMO building. We did a production of the fabulous musical parody Forbidden Broadway. But it should have been called Forbidden, like just Forbidden, because by day it was

a restaurant for bank execs. It was dark and quiet and very like really separate booths. And by night, it was the platform for this parody of Broadway performers and shows and the audience, I mean they were kind but I think often just sat slack jawed was, I don't understand, this is supposed to be funny. Anyway, yes, we were in many of the rooms. All right, just in one last note that jumped in my head, it's kind of a funny thought that I'm hungry, let's go for lunch. Hey, SickKids has good lunch.

It was a terrific cafeteria. Let's go to SickKids for lunch. I'm hungry. It's just a funny sentence to hear in the wild here. Okay. So I mentioned this list,, this list, I'm looking at them daunted by this list of productions you've directed from dames at sea, which I'll pretend I know what that is, but I know you talked about it. Well, I did it several times. You know, I did it with Yvonne DeCarlo at the former embassy tavern, which is now Harry Rosen. That was, oh, the store. I mean, there really are some wonderful, wonderful stories, which

on their own should be their own episodes. Well, here's the chance. Just go nuts. I want to hear about like your favorite productions, the ones you're most proud of, your most memorable moments, the funny moments. I don't think I'm going to be, because at some point I want to talk about what is Studio 180, you know, you're a former director for Studio 180. But tell me a little, like some highlights from this lengthy, you know career directing stage productions

Okay, so in Montreal Production of the boyfriend really wonderful charming British musical It was a It was it was thrilling to work on something that I felt I have no idea why I felt so close to it Or why it what it you know what it touched in me, but it was It was a tremendous experience And

I don't want to be unfair to anything that I You know in Toronto the early shows Well dams at sea is the first you know it it God knows it had its You know, in Toronto, the early shows, well, Dames at Sea is the first, you know, God knows it had its, it had some challenges, because I didn't know what I was doing. And, you know, interesting to know that when Jerry, when I approached Jerry Simmons and he asked

how much money I would need, I hadn't even thought about that. Well, I said, $10,000. But you just pulled that out your... Absolutely, absolutely. And he said, you know, that sounds okay. And at some point I had to go back to him and say, you know, I think it might be 12. Even saying it now, I thought, oh dear lord. I mean, it was a long time ago, but even so. So that was, that's an important milestone because it was the beginning and I didn't know that it would be, I thought it might be the beginning and the end, but it wasn't, which is, you know, an actor who was in it, Julia Motto, who has since passed, was not only wonderful in the play,

but I remember that as we were closing the show, she came over to me and said, I know there have been a lot of mistakes. She said, but if you just keep at it, you'll give yourself the capacity to learn. And I didn't, you know, I was just, I couldn't wait to get out of there because I just felt I was just,

I didn't know what I was doing. But we did okay, and like we did okay. And then I had the opportunity, like I did a lot of these dinner theatre cabaret shows that one kind friend referred to as dimmer theatre. So it was not held high as a standard. And I remember going to many of the Toronto theaters saying, you know, I would like to direct. I want to direct. I have ideas for what. And they'd say, well, we don't do musical theater. And I said, yeah, well, that's exactly why I'm here because it's not the only thing I can do. But that was, it was like a hitting a wall every time I tried

until Peter Moss at young people's theater. and he was the artistic director at the time, hired me to direct a school touring show. At that point, Young People's Theatre was a very, very active place with full main stage seasons and several touring shows at the same time. So I directed a play that did very, very well in that it just ran for a couple of seasons. Which play is this? It's called Drink the Mercury, a delightful play about mercury poisoning,

and it was for grades four to six, and in fact he gave me the script and said, you know, this was done originally by a British company, and I read the script and it seemed very thin. Not thin in depth, but it was little. And so we rehearsed for a couple of days and it was all staged and we had three weeks to rehearse. And I went to Peter, I said, well, it's sort of all there. He said, how long is it?

I said, it's about seven minutes. He said, well, it has to be 40. I said, what do I do? I do he said well you go back to rehearsal and you've got another two and a half weeks So it's true. I mean that's absolutely true because the company in England had done this play as a very I suppose it was You know they would do a scene and then they would throw it to the kids and say what what could happen next right? Well, we weren't doing that we were just doing the play you're not doing the choose your own adventure exactly no so I went nuts looking at research and trying to figure out how to do this or what to do with the actors and so we did that and so that was quite an experience and and then on the basis of that Peter said I'd like you to write

another show it'll be a companion piece, so it has to have the same actors, but this one should be about nuclear power. I said, oh, so something, and also grades four to six, yep. And Drink the Mercury had started with grades four to six and then ended up playing through high school. I mean, it was a really lovely, beautifully designed. You have a writing credit on this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not just a director. No, and a writing credit for, well, the next play, the nuclear power show, I wrote. And there were songs written by Jim Betts that were part of it, and that went on tour. And the two shows now were being toured together. And so that was Young... Suddenly

I was doing Young People's Theatre work. And so those were really wonderful. And then Peter left Young People's Theatre and as he left, so did I. I mean, I stopped. My work wasn't in much demand there after that. So then it was a real dilemma. I mean, I didn't know, I didn't wanna do more cabaret theater. I wanted to do something larger. And I wanted to do things,

I wanted a chance to do something serious, but there wasn't, and that was a very, it was very difficult for me to find those opportunities. Theater Aquarius and Hamilton at the time was still working in Hamilton Place and I got to direct a very large production of You Can't Take It With You and it was the last year they were at Hamilton Place before their new building on I think it's on King Street

had opened. So I was very fortunate to meet Peter, who was the artistic, a different Peter, at the artistic director at Aquarius. And for the next four or five seasons, I did a production each year and got to do a wider range of plays on a much larger stage. Oh yeah, see, you can't take it with you. Lend me a tenor.

That's right, lend me a tenor. Funny thing happened on the way to the forum, okay. Yeah, yeah. And House of Blue Leaves. And House of Blue Leaves was an unusual play to be given because it's not a very, I mean, it's very funny but very dark. Anyway, so I had several seasons at Theater Aquarius

and that was lovely, and at that time, I was hired at the University of Waterloo. They wanted, they felt that they needed to have somebody with a professional orientation on their faculty. They said they had the academic bases covered and they, so I applied for and was offered that job. And that was wonderful. I didn't know what that would be like. I certainly didn't know that the University of Waterloo even had a drama program, because it's so, its reputation is in engineering

and math and accounting. But they did, and they had wonderful facilities. And in fact, when I went, I guess for the interview, they had two theaters and a black box studio. And one of the theaters, and I went into it, I said, this you know I'm not I don't know that I'm heavily into deja vu I said I've been in this space this is so familiar because it was so unique and I realized after you know

after a while I had been there as a university student there used to be an annual event called the Canadian University Drama League Festival and Waterloo hosted it one year and I was there. I remember driving in a little VW Bug in the winter from Montreal to Waterloo in this horrible snowstorm in this car you probably remember well I remember from Sesame Street because Gordon drove a and I also heard be the love bug right from Disney yeah and those cars were not still around if you're paying attention you can still spot the odd they didn't have the most efficient heating systems right if you'll require right so if you sat in the front row you heating systems, if you'll require.

So if you sat in the front row, you could bake, and if you sat in the back row, you didn't even know the car had a heater. Anyway, I felt there was something karmic about the fact that I had actually performed there young. And so I took that job. And you were there from 1991 to 2014. That's right. That's quite a run at the drama department

at the University of Waterloo. I loved it. The students were so curious and so willing to try anything. And I had for five years before Waterloo, I had been at Humber College. And the students were very nice. I mean, they were sweet. They were very sweet. The college itself, I felt, didn't value the program particularly. I also didn't, it just didn't

feel like a really great fit for me and them. So when I was offered the job at Waterloo, it was very nice to have a transition. By then my kids are growing up. They are then probably 13 and 10, something like that. And there are obligations, right? Of course. And the theater work that I wanted, I really wasn't getting, and I certainly wasn't getting it in enough, in volume, God knows. So I wondered what it would be like,

because I felt that going to Waterloo, that would really, that would pretty much terminate whatever theater directing career I had. I mean, in the theater world, and maybe it's like this in all professions, when you're not there, you never existed. And so that was hard, but part of the deal at Waterloo, because I'm not an academic,

you know, I have an undergraduate degree, but I don't have. But you do have that one year of teachers' college. I do, I do. And they said, when I met the dean, he said, what's your area of research? I said, well, I direct plays sometimes. He said, well, you must continue. I said, well, then I will.

I said, with tremendous confidence, and I did. I tended to do one or two productions a year. And as long as it wasn't, you know, in the way, I didn't call in sick and say, I'll be back in six weeks. As long as it could be arranged, that was great. And so I did that. And in being there, I met a group of students who many years later, like 10 or 12 years later, became the foundation of what became Studio 180 theater. Okay, Studio 180 theater. We're going to dive into that, but I'm going

to cherry pick a few more questions on our way there. So you mentioned that you worked with Martin, Martin short. Yeah, that was the apple tree and you, you directed the apple tree with I did, I did. Okay. And is that pre SETV? Oh yeah. Did you have any, uh, notion that you were with somebody working with someone very special? Yes. I said like Marty actually had auditioned for a Gershwin review that never happened that I was going to do, but it didn't happen. And I remember when he came in and sang, he sang the Young Guys song from Pippin. And I knew, I said, this guy is, he is so unique. And I didn't know then how funny he was like. I didn't know the whole story, but yes, he just meeting him once and then understudying him and we were in a

couple of other shows that I did before the apple tree. Okay, he was you knew that this was not going. He was going to go much further now, speaking of SC TV. much further now, speaking of SC TV. This is all about SC TV now, but you directed Eugene Levy. Yeah, that was Eugene Levy and Fiona Reid. This was another theater in the Dell event. This was not a music love X four. Yeah, that's right. Love times for times for see okay and that that happened because I got a phone call from Marlene Smith, she's like, we need something. There's some, the room's available, we need something.

What can we do? I said, well, we could do these four, I can do, we'll do three or four one acts or things. And we'll call it Love Times Four. And I don't think I'd ever met Fiona. I mean, I don't know quite how this happened. Anyway, Fiona and Eugene were both willing to do this at Theatre in the Dell.

It was a limited run. We did four play lets plays. It was so rough and ready, and they were so eager and so willing to try anything. And it should have had a slightly more, what's the word, capacious venue. But, you know. The mid-dale?

Yeah, but they did it. And which is a hasty market now. It is a hasty market. It was a Greek restaurant in between. And I don't know how many other things. They should have a little plaque out front. Like one of those Toronto Harry's plaques. Eugene Levy acted here.

Well, you know, it was the DeLorentis boys, Joe and Willie, the two brothers who owned the place. And the staff, there was, I think Mabel, Gene, there were three or four women who were there, like they did it all, and one of their sons, there was little, I think it was little Joe, or one of their sons worked there, so it was a real family.

I mean, they'd been together forever. I don't know how long theater in the Dell had been there before I arrived right and then one day it wasn't there anymore, but it's yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we restaurant now last SCTV question here. I'm kind of Miley obsessed. They filmed a reunion at Winter Garden Theatre and Martin Scorsese was directing this.

And many people you know and love attended this and by all accounts, and even Rick Moranis was there. And he's like, he doesn't do a lot of stuff with these guys anymore. But it was a hit. This is back when Joe Flaherty was still with us and they were all

there. Yeah. And this thing is like collecting dust. I don't know. And square Sazy kitchen pantry shelf or something. And it doesn't look like we're ever going to see this thing, which is kind of one of those mysteries, I suppose of what happened. You don't have any insight. You haven't talked to Martin Scorsese about this. I know Martin and I know we've talked about so many other things. It hasn't come up. No, it hasn't. We talked about doing a, he talked about wanting to do a film of

dames at sea, but that also didn't come up. That sounds like him. Okay. But another Martin. Okay. So Martin Scorsese, we're, we don't know what's going on there. If anyone knows, let me know. But Andrea Martin, who has come up a couple of times already, but you directed her, I don't even know where Teller's Cage is. Well, it isn't. It was in the lower level of the Toronto Dominion Center. I believe it became a Swiss chalet. I have no idea what it is now. Who knows?

Maybe it's a dollar store. I have absolutely no idea. Did you direct it quite a bit at this venue? Oh, I did. I did. And they used to do, I mean, we did a production of a play called Vanities with Fiona Reed, Andrea Martin, and Jane Eastwood. And that was- Jane Eastwood's in Going Down the Road. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And she was in the first Second City Company in Toronto. Yes. And she was at that reunion. Oh, I'm sure. Because she was married to Joe's brother.

Correct. No, it was, I mean, that Vanities, that play was quite, you know, that was quite an event to be able to work with those women to begin with. And then, you know, to do a play in one of those venues was very unusual to do something that didn't have songs and dances and high, like driving energy. And I remember the Saturday nights in particular when there were two shows and the second show, and this was a play in three acts and the, I think the, the tellers cage people loved it because there were two intermissions. So there was lots of time to sell drinks.

But I do remember every Saturday night, because I think I was, at some point during it, I was running the lighting board, because I guess the stage manager left, I don't know. But I remember that the second show would start at 11 o'clock, and oh, as we sort of sailed into act three at about quarter to one in the morning, the audience had, yeah, the laugh quotient

had really died down. So that was the Tellers' Cage. I have no idea what it is now. Okay, you also did, I like the name of this, Tonight at 8.30, 9 o'clock in Newfoundland. Yeah, we did three of those. They were really fun. The first one was at another now-defunct place

called Hampton Court. It was a hotel on Jarvis, I think, on the corner of College. It was right across from the old CBC building. And we did this review, this local review. And Alan Gutman, who was a good friend of mine at the time, wrote this. It was all original, all dancing, you know, again, the formula for performers, two men, two women, wearing variations of white and red clothing. And we did tonight

at 8.39 o'clock in Newfoundland, edition one, edition two and edition three. And I believe that was a teller's cage. Yes, yes. And then partway through this, I think maybe during the second, but certainly during the third, Jim Betts was writing as well. So it wasn't, uh, it wasn't Alan's work exclusively. Um, yeah. So that was, um, yes, that's right. That was a, and here a little insight into me. So that was, um, yes, that's right. That was a little insight into me. So, uh, other than school productions and I was in, uh, I was the lead in the Canada goose, which was a musical we did in primary school. Yeah. I'm not just bragging to you. You could have me in one of your productions here, but okay. My first introduction to real theater, if

you will, was at the young people's theater when I saw Jacob Tutu and the hooded thing. And that was the first time. And I just know at some point you were a choreographer for that production. I was, one of their, yeah, because they've produced it many times. I did it when Torquil Campbell played Jacob. From Stars?

And yeah, and George Booza played the Fang, and Jennifer, oh damn, fabulous woman. Torquil Campbell's dad was a famous actor. Oh, absolutely, damn. Fabulous. Well, yeah, Torkel Campbell's dad was a famous actor. Oh, absolutely. Douglas. I mean, he could like Torkel was young when we did this. And I remember that Douglas Campbell came in to rehearsal. I mean, just-

With that voice. Yeah, yeah. Voice. I mean, you'd hear the voice before the man actually walked through the door. Right. No, Jenny Phipps played Mistress Fowl or Mistress Fish. No, it was, it wasn't a show that demanded choreography, but it was fun to work on.

It wasn't my, I enjoyed working on it. I think the word choreography was, was an overstated word. That's funny. All right. So I just talk one thing about his father, Douglas. Uh, if anyone knows the great song by stars, uh, your ex lover is dead. Okay. So go to YouTube or Spotify, listen to your ex lover is dead by stars. Cause it's an amazing song, but it opens with this big booming voice saying, when there's nothing left to lose, you set yourself on fire. And that of course is Douglas Campbell doing that. That's for the the stars heads out there. Okay. I would one last credit I want to ask you about before I ask you about your awards. Okay. You directed and choreographed a Expo 86 at the Ontario Pavilion. What was that? Oh, this one's an outlier, so I have to ask. Yeah,

well, Humber College got the contract for providing the entertainment at the Ontario Pavilion for that World's Fair. And the Humber music program is really spectacular and was the reputation, like that really was their star program. And so that was a given and they wanted something else and they asked, and I think when I was offered the job at Humber, they had canceled the program, the theater program, and then they decided to reinstate it. And I think when they decided to reinstate it, they were aiming and hoping that it would be tied in with the music program, which was a phenomenal program. And that didn't really quite work. But that summer, I guess 86, we did,

it was singing, like a group of 15 or 17 students, some theater students, mostly music vocal students, went out to the Ontario Pavilion and did three, there were three sort of large sets, three one-hour sets that we did, I say we, they did. I love this as a guttural reaction. Yeah, no it wasn't brilliant. Well you didn't win any Dora Awards for this one. No, no, I didn't. I didn't. But since I'm bringing up the Dora Awards, please, what for which productions have you

won Dora Awards? Oh, I won one. I won one. You sure it's only one? Because I did some homework. Oh, well, yeah, no, I mean, no, one of my, yes, one of my directing credits, It Misbehavin', the Fats Waller musical that I did, I think it was in 83, something like that.

That, I won the directing award for It Misbehavin'. Oh, Outstanding Directions. Yes. Okay, well congrats. Is it a trophy, what is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you have it still somewhere? I do, I do. Where does it live? It lives. Um,

it lives among plants in my dining room. It's a, it's an object. And, um, yeah, no, that was, that was early in the history of the doors. I don't know if it was the second third year, maybe, maybe a little later, but it was when the door awards were actually televised. And I remember that that year the awards were held, I think it was at the Sheraton Center, in their ballroom. And this is also early years, I believe, for people having things like VCRs. And a friend of mine, the day after the ceremony, called and said, I just want you to know I taped, I taped

you. I have it on tape. So I have this permanent record and when I watched it, the same thing as I did, the same thing I felt when I first watched myself act on TV. I said, why didn't somebody say, you know, just take it down about 15 notches. I looked like I have, honestly, I look as though I have just been unchained and I've got 15 minutes before they take me back.

But I was very excited, you know? Yeah, I mean, that's a big deal, right? It was, it was. I, like, at various stages in my career, I thought, okay, so Here I go. This is just the beginning and The very very necessary lesson of learning there is no such thing. I mean, yes, you feel great Then the next day you're looking for work again

It's pretty much how it worked But I was no I was I was delighted to be It's pretty much how it worked, but I was, no, I was delighted to be nominated. Many people in the show and many aspects of the show were awarded, so that was very satisfying. And then a couple of years later, Drink the Mercury, the play about mercury poisoning, won the Dora Award as the outstanding sort of children's play. Outstanding children's play. Yeah, theater for young audiences audiences as it is now called. There's no more children's theater, but that's, yeah, that was,

and that was, I thought, really well earned. I mean, that was, its responses were great. One, I think one really good story. At the end, these are 45 minute plays. Typically they're done in a gymnasium or in a cafeteria or something like that. They rarely, they are fighting their environment. And we had John Panwaye designed beautiful set

that could be packed up and put in the back of a van. And one performance, and I went to see some of the performances, but one of the performances, there was always a Q&A at the end, and the kids were asking questions. And on this particular performance, where I happened to be in attendance, one student raised her hand and asked if fish,

because the character's in the play, the little girl in the play dies from mercury poisoning, and the little girl asked, if I eat fish, could I die? Good question. Excellent question question and the very astute actor who answered the question said yes you could. Yeah, I'm not kidding. Sure. And this school that we were at that sort of brought the Q&A session to an end and the school that we were at I remember was very close in proximity to where Young People's Theatre was.

And as the van arrived back at the theatre, Peter Moss, the artistic director, and Colleen Blake, the general manager, were on the street waiting for the van to say, are you out of your mind? This little girl now... Will never eat fish again. Ever again ever again. No. Yeah. So that, that anyway, we won that. We didn't win the award because of that,

but we the play won the award and that was very exciting. No red lobster for her. No. Okay. And one last award before we get to this one 80. I want to ask you about that is a, you won. And speaking of children's plays, a Chalmers, I'm going to act like I know what that is, but a Chalmers playwriting award. It sounds prestigious. Well, it was. I plays, a Chalmers, I'm gonna act like I know what that is, but a Chalmers Playwriting Award. It sounds prestigious.

Well, it was. I mean, the Chalmers Foundation, the Chalmers family had endowed an enormous amount of money because they believed in the value of the arts. And there was an annual award for outstanding plays. It wasn't the best. And on two categories, there were sort of the, I guess, the adult version and then theater for young audiences.

So the Nuclear Power Show, and these were not... Plays were not nominated. There was sort of a jury that would take in everything in a category, and at the end of the year there was an event and awards were given. So I got a phone call from somebody, maybe it was the Ontario Arts Council, just saying, are you planning to be at the Chalmers reception? I said, no. And I, no, but thank you. So we really think you should go.

Wink wink. Yeah, so I went and I had no idea. I mean, I assumed that I didn't even know what it was for. And so they were giving out the awards and I got my award and that was, I was, you know, I was I was more than pleased, but really stunned. And for a number of years, the Ontario Arts Council managed the Chalmers money, or that particular award. And then it, not that long, I don't know how many years ago, a number of years ago, they disbanded that piece and redirected the funds to it. It's still for

arts funding. But I remember being on the jury a number of years ago and the, I mean these were substantial awards, certainly for the adult category. There would be four playwrights awarded $25,000 each. And being on that jury was really eye-opening and not humbling, but it was fascinating because we are being asked to distribute a lot of money and a playwright getting that much money. I mean, in Canada, I don't know that there was anything ever like that.

And one of the guests on Life and Stages, Michael Healy, is a winner for his wonderful play, The Drawer Boy, and I remember being in that ceremony when he was awarded. And the people coming knew that they mean they were invited knowing that they had been they would be recipients but hearing all the playwrights express their thanks for this very substantial donation or this prize was really wonderful I haven't had that experience. I mean, I haven't experienced things much like that in Canada,

but that was great. Now I want to hear about co-founding Studio 180. Tell me about this. Well, back in the University of Waterloo, when I first started there, there was a double cohort. I mean, two classes, two different years of students that sort of ran through the program together. They were very lovely, very curious, eager to try absolutely anything. We did a lot of productions. They graduated, I guess, around 94, 95.

Oh, yes. This is when they got rid of OAC. This is so awesome. I'm an OAC guy. And that was the earlier I joked about they made us do the five years of high school and they changed it now to you get out of there after grade 12. So you had a double cohort. That's right. And so they did a tremendous amount of work together. They graduated. They were, some of them were aiming to establish careers for themselves in the theater or in the performing arts. I stayed, you know, I was still at the university. I would see, you know, I would run into them, but it wasn't planned or scheduled meetings, but I would run into people often at the theater

or at the Toronto Fringe. One of them, Mark McGinder, who, you know, he was at the Shaw Festival for five seasons, so when I was there I would arrange to see him. It was all very casual. And then in 2002, I'm not even sure how this started, but in 2002, four former students and I met, and the students talked about wanting to have a chance to work together with people they'd been through school with because once you leave school, you don't

very often get a chance to work together again and certainly not when you've moved off in different areas. So I said, I don't even, the four of you probably know where other students are now, former students. I have no idea. And I had just seen a play called The Laramie Project. I had just seen it in New York and I was completely taken with it and thought this would be a wonderful play to do. And I thought it would be wonderful to do with the university. Everything about it is the right kind of project. And I wasn't, you know, I was, it was in my head somewhere. And then I met with these students and they said,

what we would really love to do is have, is work on something with former classmates who are still in this business or trying to create careers for themselves. We want it to be big, so it isn't a, we don't want it to be a fringe show that we could do with two or three people. We want it to be, we want to be sure that it's not Shakespeare because it seems to us that most companies that start feel they need to be able to prove they can do Shakespeare in a way that nobody else has ever done it. And I don't think they were that interested anyway. And I said, well, here's a play that you should read. They read it. I told them about it. They didn't read it. I told them about it and they said, well, it sounds like it might

not be that interesting because I said it's made up of interviews and it's verbatim theater. But then they read it and they were interested and I said, well, let's, why don't we start by you contact as many people as all of you know who are former UW students and we'll do a reading. I think you have to hear it. So we did that and I said, you know, the play has eight, is written for eight actors, but we're not gonna do that because I don't want it to feel like an audition or anything like that

So I think we divided the many characters. There's something like 70 characters in the play So we divided among 14 or 15 people and we did this evening and it was like a reunion I mean many of them were people I didn't know because they'd been at the university before I was there but it was it was very exciting. And the former students were really excited about what they thought could happen. They said, we've got to do this. I said, well, you know, it's big, you know,

eight actors and everything else, and where are we going to do it? I had absolutely no idea where to begin. And I thought, well, I will go back to the university because Waterloo has always prided itself on being entrepreneurial. And one of the first schools to start, oh, what are they, work study programs.

And I know certainly accounting, engineering, they're all work study based degrees. And so I thought, well, you know, I arranged to have a meeting with the president of the university, who had previously been at McGill, and I knew he had a very, very strong understanding of the arts. And he knew why, he knew roughly why I was coming to see him. And he had invited the woman who was the head of alumni and development to that same meeting.

I told him what the project was, and the students were really excited. He thought it was wonderful, and he said, and what can I do for you? I said, well, we're gonna need money to do this. And he said, well, there is no money in my office. I said, yeah, but I assume you know where the money is. He said, well, you know, all the best with the project.

And I was, and I don't know what, I think I had anticipated my exit would have been a more upbeat exit than it was, but the woman who was there, Gwen Graper, said, how much money do you need right away? Well, how much money do you need and how soon? I said, well, we need $5,000 immediately because we do have a theater

and we'd need to put a deposit down and the rights are available, but we have to put a deposit down. And so we need $5,000. And she said, well, let me think about that. And about an hour or two later, she said, our department will provide that because it's a perfect alumni development project.

So we started with that. We didn't get much more than that. I contacted the actors. I mean, the difficulty of then having to actually cast the play when so many people had read for it. I said, well, the first thing is, I think we need at least four weeks of rehearsal, and it's gotta be full time.

And I don't know how many of you can afford to do that, because we have no money. It'll be a co-op, which means that if we make any money at all, if there is anything at the end, it'll be split evenly. That's the best that we can offer. And so we proceeded. I don't know how, only one of the eight had to withdraw

because she said, I just can't, I mean, I can't afford to do this. So we replaced her with the only, as it turns out, the only sort of non-UW person. We did the play, we rehearsed it, we rehearsed in a library on Oakwood, and we performed at a theatre called Artward, which was on, oh, it's where Bucca is just off of King Street. So that theater is gone, but we were there. That was really transformative because we had no idea how this would go.

I think it ran for two weeks, two and a half weeks. Kate Taylor, who was the then theatre critic with The Globe and Mail, it was a wonderful review and it was mostly about the play itself. I mean she certainly mentioned the production, but we started, we had an education program, schools came. We had, it was really, really exciting. There were some schools that had to cancel once they realized it was about the murder of Matthew Shepard, an openly gay student, thinking that perhaps the play would be very explicit.

And in fact, it was, it's a difficult play. It was wonderful. The experience was fabulous. We friend of mine who came to see it brought friends and said, you know, you must come out with us afterward. One of my friends friends was on the board of a foundation. So what do you want to do next? I said, well, we want to do it again. But this time we want people to be paid properly. There was an audience for this. I think there still

is. So we did it the following year as part of the 25th season at Buddies and Bad Times. And it was, and the aim with this actually was to do a project. It was never with the goal of setting up an ongoing company because I'm fairly certain if that had been the discussion, there's no way of knowing, but I'm pretty sure I would have said, it's great, I wish you all the very best. If there's anything I can do, if you want any advice or any help, let me know.

Because I had done that when I was their age. And I said, I can't do this. Starting these things is just so hard and I don't know, like, grants and raising money. I said, oh, this is not where I belong. And then we did a play two years later called the Arab Israeli Cookbook that attracted support. And one of those supporters then approached me in, I think, 2007 and said, what do you

want to do next? And how could we help you if our foundation supported you? So it was, that's how the company, that's how we became, said, I guess we're're gonna see if we can become an ongoing entity. We were able to get our own charitable status because until then when we got money, when people were willing to donate money, we couldn't accept the money. I mean if somebody wanted a tax receipt, and I knew nothing about how the not-for-profit world, I didn't even know what that was. So we had different trusts that could accept the money on our behalf. We said we can't keep, if we're gonna keep

doing plays, we can't keep doing this. So we were able, we were very fortunate to be able to get our own charitable status pretty quickly, I'm told. And then we had to have a board and then, things I knew, I think most of my work before that had been with commercial theater. And even when I was working for a not-for-profit theater, I wasn't in the management of it or the administration of it. I was hired as an artist to direct something. So I didn't know any of the rules. And so that's

how Studio 180 started. So we, you know, we had our first conversations in 2002, we had our first production in 2003. And I stepped down as artistic director in the, I guess, June of 23. And that was the end of our 20th season. And, um, well, congratulations because I'm looking at the productions here, you know, uh, the normal heart parade, uh, black bird, uh, you know, I mentioned indecent is, I guess your last, the last, uh, stage production that you directed. So you stepped down. why did you step down?

Well, you know, 20 years is a long time. And I've been doing, you know, I've been working in theater for my whole career. I mean, teaching as well, but I was always, with only a few periods where I said, you know, no more. I mean, this is just too emotionally. I'm like, I'm done. I can't, I want to do this, but I can't do this because nobody is hiring me to do this. This is, I found it so, so ego damaging. So I, you know, there were at least two periods in my life

So there were at least two periods in my life where I said, I'm done, I won't do this again. And then after a period of time I said, I have to do this. And I really want to do this. So I thought, I've been doing this for 50 years and it's really time. I'm exhausted. The work that I was doing, I loved directing. If somebody were to ask me to direct something

that I wanted to direct now, I'd be thrilled. I'd be flattered. But I don't want to be running a company. And I felt I had done what I could. Generationally, it was time for somebody else, I think, and I, you know, I didn't, after Indecent, I didn't have a list of all the things I never got to do.

I thought that's a really nice way to end. I would have, the plan was that I was going to step down in the spring of 20. That was when Indecent was to be done. And then, of course, the world, it all stopped. It shut down. And I didn't know that we were actually ever going to be able to do Indecent. And we were doing it in partnership with Mervish Productions. It was to be our seventh partnership with them. And when they called to say, no, everything is stopping,

we're just gonna delay it. And I said then, I said, well, I think they're trying to be kind, and I think they're trying to be as gentle as they can be instead of saying we're canceling it. And then when things started to open up again, we started talking about it again, and I was so excited to be

able to get to this big project. This is the perfect last project for me to do with the company. It's got every aspect of theatre work that I've ever done. It's all in there. And I think the project, I think it's a wonderful play and actually doing it after the pandemic, I said it's even more potent than it had been when we were originally doing it. So yeah, that is why I stepped down. I use the word retire and my wife, Phyllis,

kept saying, you're not retiring, you're not retiring. You're stepping down from the company. I said, yeah, I guess. But the word retire sounds very final. Right. But here I am. Well, this is my next, the way I want to end this is this is an episode.

And if I did this properly, it'll be repurposed for my podcast as well, Toronto Mike. But this is an episode of Life in Stages. What inspired you to start this podcast series, Life in Stages? Well, I was listening to podcasts, I guess I started listening to them in earnest during the lockdown and during the pandemic, going for long walks and listening. And I was listening to a lot of political podcasts and then I felt I was just saturated and I said, oh, this is not healthy.

It's not making me feel good at all. So I was looking for a variety of podcasts and at the same time I was watching a lot of the TV that I was watching, a lot of streaming that I was doing was British Cop mystery thriller things Brit box stuff. Yes, absolutely. Yes, and I hadn't you know I was familiar with some but I didn't realize how much there was now some of it isn't that good but a lot of it is sensational and

one of the series in particular line of duty, which is And one of the series in particular, Line of Duty, which is right up there, there's an actor in it named Craig Parkinson, who plays this just awful, creepy, dangerous guy. And he's in it a lot. And I was reading something about him that mentioned his podcast called The Two Shot Pod. And I thought, well, I'll listen to that, because I'm curious. When I see him in this program, he's just awful. And listening to it, I said, oh, he's a person. And he's warm and he's funny. And what the Two Shot Pod is, is interviews with actors, mostly actors, writers as well.

But many of these actors are actors who I had come to know through all of these TV things that I was seeing, all this BBC stuff. And I said, these are, I feel like I'm listening to my friends because I'm so familiar with these people and their conversations. And I'm told it's called long form because the conversations are 45 minutes an hour and they're not marketing. People are not saying, you know, stay tuned for my next project. They're talking about their lives and they're talking about their challenges or how they started or what they're doing and what it's like when you've been doing this for 30 years. Like one person

saying, Craig's saying, do you still audition for things? And I'll say, no, I've had it with auditions until my agent calls me and tells me I have an audition. And that of course spoke to me in a very, very immediate way. I thought, well this is, I mean I love this. And he did about over 200 episodes in, I guess over four or so years. He had started, in fact the first episode I listened to was his final episode. He said after four years, I mean, I've sort of done. So I didn't know what to do. I mean, I thought this is so interesting and I'd love to do something like this. And is there anything like this? And I looked around a bit and I couldn't find anything. And I said, I don't know. I know nothing about podcasts. And so

I Googled how to start a podcast. Sure. And that didn't help. I mean, it said, you know, I got a couple of pieces of advice and somebody said, all you need is a laptop and a mic. I said, no, I think it probably is more than that. I can have those things. And then what do I do? So I looked around and, um, and I was looking at, I was curious about Toronto. I said, how many, I said, are there a lot of Toronto podcasts? I guess there are, and there are thousands of podcasts. And Toronto mic'd your podcast, kept being referred to,

and I said, oh, and on one of them, it had your email address. So of course I wrote to you, and I remember you writing back almost immediately and with a phone number I thought well this is really unusual because the other the only other Recommendations and referrals that I had were to I think they're called hosting platforms They're in a very very pleasant people, but they will only email and I said I don't understand too many

Can we have a phone call? They said, we're not equipped for that. I said, come on, you're not equipped. We're not equipped to talk on the phone with you, Joe. Right, I said, why don't you just say, we don't talk, here we don't talk on the phone. Anyway, you do. So we spoke. I'm a real person though.

Yeah, you spoke, you told me how it works, and bingo. So that was the impetus. And when I stepped down from Studio 180, Phyllis was very concerned about how much, she said, you're gonna have so much available time, what are you gonna do? I said, well, I don't know. I've been doing what I've been doing for a very long time.

I need to find out first what it's like not to be doing this. I mean, I'm not looking for another job and I'm certainly not looking to start a business or anything like that. So that took about, probably about six, I'm guessing six or seven months, and then I heard the Two Shot Pod. Right.

And that started something. It inspired you. It did, it did. And that's often how these, for me, that's often how these things happen or how if I find a play that I then become obsessed with, it sort of fine. It works its way into the front of my head or just, it won't let go. And that was what happened with this. And, uh,

and so here I am in your studio and, um, it's really exciting to be doing something I've never done before and certainly related to things that I understand and that I like and speaking to people, some of whom I know well, many of whom I know passingly. And I think also the thing with actors, mostly actors, you know, rarely get to, rarely are asked to talk about themselves. I mean, it might be come and talk about the play or the film. Yeah. Promote and Excel tickets to definitely, definitely. And those tend to be short and very, you know, very standard kind of template. And I said, I don't want to have a template. And if I, you know, as much as I know what Craig Parkinson was doing, I said I don't want to have a template and if I you know as much as I know what Craig Parkinson was doing I said these these conversations

sound very loose and so that's what I'm going to do so I sent invitations to a number of people saying this is what I'm planning to do are you available and interested and if so let me know and they did and we're almost done actually. We've got, yeah, we've done 11 episodes and I am curious to know if anybody will be listening and mostly I'm curious not to hear myself as much as to determine whether this is the right, whether this is a good fit. I like it and it's fun and I love not feeling that I'm about to go into rehearsal, which after 50 years, I mean, it just gets, I found that it gets harder and harder and the anxieties,

the pressure, all of that, It just gets harder to do it. I don't know if it is simply that you know more, or you certainly know more about what you do and don't want and what you want to demand of yourself and take nothing less, all of that. So that is what's behind Life in Stages, the podcast. And I've been listening to you record these long form conversations and just to peel back the curtain a little bit here. We haven't actually, as we speak right now, we have not yet launched Life in Stages.

So my plan is, I suppose this is episode 11 of Life in Stages. So in the future, Mike, I hope things are going well, but I plan to drop this in my podcast feed to introduce the podcast listeners to you. I learned so much about, I've loved this past look in 90 minutes. Okay, Joel, I learned so much about you, fascinating. And this is a world I'm unfamiliar with and I find it very, very interesting. So I would love it if, again, I'm talking to two audiences now, but if you're listening to this on life in stages, let you all know what you thought, tell your friends to subscribe.

You have a Patreon account, patreon.com slash life and stages. You're accepting donations there to help, you know, fund this, uh, this passion project and people should go there and support you. If you're listening to this in the Toronto mic feed, well, goodness gracious, pause right now, search for life and stages on your podcast app and subscribe to that you're in stage for a pun intended for 11 great episodes of life and stages. So Joel, I would just like to, to wrap by saying it's been a pleasure working with you on this project and I think you're good at this because you're a curious cat, you're passionate, you

know your subject matter and I've been loving these conversations you've been having. Joel Greenberg, I've learned so much about you and thank you for this. Pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. And that brings us to the end of our 1555th show. You can follow me all over the place. Go to torontomike.com to learn more. Much love to all who made this possible. That's Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, RecycleMyElectronics.ca, Raymond James Canada, and Ridley Funeral Home. See you all Monday when Katie Lohr makes her Toronto Mic debut. I wanna take a streetcar downtown

Read Andrew Miller and wander around And drink some Guinness from a tin Cause my UI check has just come in Ah, where you been? Because everything is coming up rosy and gray. Yeah, the wind is cold, but the sun's so warm to be today. And your smile is fine, and it's just like wine, and it won't go away. Because everything is rosy and gray.