Trash Tuesday w/ Esther Povitsky & Khalyla Kuhn - Eileen Kelly Is Our Unlicensed Therapist

Episode Date: January 3, 2023

Thank you to our Sponsors: RocketMoney -  Cancel unwanted subscriptions and manage your expenses the easy way by going to https://rocketmoney.com/trashtuesday More Eileen KellyGoing Metal Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/going-mental-with-eileen-kelly/id1449305737Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/eileen/ Subscribe! https://bit.ly/HitOurButtonsOfficial Clips Channel: https://bit.ly/2QDAi8XTrash Tuesday Podcast iTunes Audio Feed: https://bit.ly/TrashTuesdayPodTrash Tuesday Podcast Spotify Audio Feed: https://bit.ly/TTPodAudioTrash Tuesday Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/itstrashtuesday 0:00 Our Guest Eileen Kelly and Her Mental Health Journey10:18 Is Everyone Struggling in Some Way?12:58 Useful Tools From Dialectical Behavior Therapy 21:08 What is Borderline Personality Disorder?24:02 Jonah Hill Documentary Stutz26:34 Psychedelic Therapy29:08 Being an Addict34:34 Finding the Right Kind of Therapy & The Right Therapist44:32 The Issue with TikTok Diagnoses46:56 Esther’s Engagement & Eileen Kelly’s Ideal Wedding50:31 Practicing Your Boundaries57:06 Waiting to Do the Deed Until Marriage59:58 Hooking Up with Younger Guys1:07:24 Having an Emotional Disconnect with Your Parents1:10:59 Sleeping with Escorts1:24:30 Letting Your Man Sleep with Another Woman1:28:43 Adult Movies1:33:23 What’s the Name For a Male Karen?1:34:24 Girl Names That Incels Hate Listen to our other Podcasts: TigerBelly - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tigerbelly/id1041201977 My Pleasure - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/my-pleasure/id1494518220 AnnieWood - https://www.youtube.com/annielederman Follow Us: Khalyla Kuhn - https://www.instagram.com/khalamityk Annie Lederman - https://www.instagram.com/annielederman Esther Povitsky - https://www.instagram.com/esthermonster Produced by: 7EQUIS Podcast Producers: Pete Forthun & Carlos Herrera Editor: Bryce Hallock

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offer and your new three-month unlimited wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to mintmobile.com slash Tuesday. That's mintmobile.com slash Tuesday. Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com slash Tuesday. $45 upfront payment required equivalent to $15 a month. New customers on first three-month plan only. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes. On unlimited plan, additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. gigabytes on unlimited plan additional taxes fees and restrictions apply statement mobile for details this episode is sponsored by rocket money if your new year's goals are to manage your budget better and save money you need rocket money stop throwing your money away cancel unwanted subscriptions and manage your expenses the easy way by going to rocketmoney.com slash trash tuesday that's rocketmoney.com slash trash tuesday rocketmoney.com slash trash t Tuesday. RocketMoney.com slash Trash Tuesday. I'm so excited. This weekend, I'm going to be in Phoenix, January 6th and 7th.

You can get tickets at EstherOnIce.com. Hey, sluggies. I hope you're enjoying this episode. My new solo podcast, Annie Wood, is now out on YouTube.com slash Annie Letterman at a brand new date and time.'s on thursdays at 8 a.m pacific 11 a.m eastern i have been having so much fun live chatting with all of you guys during the premiere so check it out if you can make it on time it's a blast also i'm on the road as usual and i love meeting you guys it's been so fun you can see me next i have a new date for burbank

flappers january 14th just one show only let's sell out and have a blast. I'll then be in Madison, Wisconsin at the end of January on the 27th and 28th. I'll be in Dania Beach, Florida, February 3rd and 4th, Washington, DC, February 24th and 25th. And I'll be in Seattle. I'm so excited. I've been waiting to come see you guys, March 10th and 11th and Tampa at the end of March. And then I'll be in Danforth, Canada in April. All those dates are changing. They're being added. Please go to Annie Letterman.com slash shows to check those out and get tickets. I can't wait to meet you guys. So much new merch, so many fun things, new jokes. I love you. I'll see you soon and see you in anyone. So welcome to Tr trash tuesday today we have a guest we're very excited about eileen kelly welcome thank you eileen you are like basically this like tumblr

creature creature you're like an iconic creature of tumblr you're like very sex positive you talk a lot about mental health you have your own podcast going deep going going mental going crazy going mental um so yeah we're just like excited to have you and like learn from you is that okay? Yes, I'm excited to be here. Super excited. I feel like you're the smart girl we are not. So you might be the brains of this episode. Okay. And so you studied gender studies, right? I studied gender studies and then I did like a sex education program in San Francisco. Yeah, and then I used to do like mainly mostly sex ed was like the brunt of my career. And I would go and like speak at schools and did a lot of really cool stuff with Planned Parenthood and a bunch of different nonprofits and organizations. And then I had

like my own issues with mental health and ended up stepping away from my career in life in New York. And I went and did like a mental health treatment at a hospital in Boston for like half a year with no phone. Oh, well, I know no phone, no computer. What age? This was like right when COVID was breaking, actually discharged from the hospital, like right into COVID. Was it voluntary? Yeah. breaking actually discharged from the hospital like right into COVID. Was it voluntary? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I went voluntarily. Because I've been three times involuntary. Yeah. But we can talk about that. Yeah. Because it's a residential program. So you have to like want to do it. And it's really, really rigorous. So there was like all these crazy tests. I mean, I could talk more about the experience, but that kind of was a natural pivot in my life to shifting towards mental health. Even though I feel like the two are

really connected, like sexual and mental health. I mean, it's really just comes down to like communication and like speaking about your emotions and being able to, yeah, control them better. And so, yeah, that's kind of where life has taken me and then when i what was happening in your life right before you said okay like i need this break like yeah was there a point how did you know i just had like such debilitating anxiety like i couldn't eat i'd like lost a shit ton of weight um wasn't sleeping, just like wasn't functioning. I wasn't able to work. I had to like take time off from work. And then I was like, this is not normal. Like I'm not doing okay. And yeah, then I started, I first did like an outpatient program in New York. And then I

pretty quickly knew that I needed a higher level of care because I was like I still feel like shit like I go home after being in an outpatient program all day and I feel just as crazy if not crazier um living alone I was living alone at the time and going through the throes of like a really horrible breakup and it was just like a lot emotionally that i didn't know how to deal with and someone yeah recommended this program i actually had dated someone that had gone to the same hospital crazy enough and he was like i really think you should go you can always leave if you want to if it's not helping and so i just committed and i went to this program and it's a six month program. Well, they actually kind of trick you, I always say. No, no, I'm serious. It's a 60 day

minimum is what they say. But then you get there and everyone's been there for like five, six months and you're like, okay. And then most people go right into an outpatient program for another six months in Boston. So a lot of people go there like for a year. And so I don't know when I think about it, I'm like people are really at their rock bottom to commit like half a year, a year of your life away. And I'm assuming people fly from all over the world or even. Oh yeah.

There are people from all over the world. Yeah. I mean, it's one of the best and oldest psychiatric hospitals in the country, in the world. So it's part of Harvard too. So they have a lot of ongoing, like new research and medications and doctors and like you get a whole team, but like you have to be

sick enough right to even get into this program if that makes sense right like it's hard to get in yeah just no no i just mean like there's only certain amount of slots yeah and like i remember a lot of like the stigma i would get from family and friends because i was so like on from an external point of view i was so high functioning like people didn't really know what was going on internally for me so they didn't see like how bad i was doing but i think that is the scariest part is being high functioning because like no one like you don't have the hallmark cues of someone like going through like a nervous breakdown. That's what I always say just about mental mental illness mental health is it's invisible like it's not like a physical illness.

In terms of like you could see someone in a wheelchair you could see someone with a broken leg. And so I feel like it never get it has so much more stigma and they don't treat them the same i had someone on my podcast um have you ever read the book or seen the movie brain on fire i i've seen part of the movie okay so basically she has this like she had this neurological condition that um was giving her psych essentially, but it's actually because her brain was swelling. So it was a physical illness, but she talked about how she kept going to the hospital and going to the hospital. And at first they thought she was schizophrenic, like she got misdiagnosed as schizophrenic and bipolar and all of these things. They couldn't figure out what was

wrong with her. And then once she switched and they figured out that it was this brain condition she said her level of care changed like completely night and day um and just in terms of how they treat mental illness versus physical illness like in a hospital setting and just like the research and stigma so that's kind of what i've been trying to do is just talk about it i guess yeah i felt like also because my issue was binge eating and i felt like because sorry donut is so annoying but i love her um because my addiction was like to eating a lot of food i felt like i no one would take it seriously because it's not like I was like drinking alcohol or doing drugs which I had family members who had struggled with those kinds of addiction and like

that was really serious and I remember this phone call I had to make to my parents where I was like no like I get it it's just food and I just like overeating but like we need to start looking at this like I'm an alcoholic like I'm struggling and it is i don't know i yeah it's hard to like get people to see that yeah it's the internal experience it's like even someone who has ocd for example like you don't know what it's like to step into their mind and hear those thoughts on loop um my poor mother she has ocd and. And I just see like the wheels turning. And I know that she struggles with anything that is out of her. Like when she puts tiny things that we don't even consider,

like how the hangers are spaced in a closet, right? Like for her, that is a big, big, big deal. Like it can consume her, her whole being and she'll sit there for two hours and she has to space out the hanger a certain way or else like she just feels like this huge discomfort for the rest of the day and the way she folds clothes and i just like i it's it's visible to me but otherwise from a person who's not in her life day to day, she is 62 years old with a six pack, who is just this physical specimen of a woman who's raised, who's just a strong woman who's raised two daughters, you know, mostly alone. But no, she struggles with

the tiniest things day to day. And I just like have so much like empathy for her. Doesn't that sort of just make you this whole conversation make you feel like everyone literally everyone is struggling like there's no even chance they're not right like we're all fucked up and struggling yeah i think so i mean even doing this doing the podcast i've been doing like i'll get messages from like like daily like 20 messages, especially when we put out an episode, maybe it will be more than that. I've like, hey, I listened to your episode on OCD, or I listened to your episode on personality disorders. And like,

either I have a family member or a friend that's struggling, or I relate to this. And I'm like, so many people just came out of the woodwork. And so it really does make me selfishly like not feel as alone, but also just to connect with other people. And like you're saying, yeah, a lot of people are struggling. Yeah. And it's a tough thing because it's like the infrastructure to support just like mental health in general is like really poor. Cause I remember when i was in high school and i was put on a 5150 like it was hard to find a bed for a girl like me a place like you know i ended up going to bhc in alhambra and i was there twice but even then it's like here's a girl who just attempted suicide but it was difficult to place me in in uh by by bed i mean like there's no space for me

right everything is like packed you know and um i just remember thinking to myself it's like well shit if i'm this extreme of a case this was a very it wasn't like a silent thing i wasn't silently suffering like i had an attempt at my life and they still had trouble finding me a bed like imagine anyone else who is not obviously like attempting suicide but is struggling and like you know it's less visible we're all on our own we're all on our fucking own yeah well i think there's a disconnect between the medical community. Like my experience having been in the hospital for like psychiatric stuff. It's like in and out, like, especially if you have had an attempt, for example, like they keep you for usually as long as your insurance will let you, which is not that long. Mostly they're prioritizing like physical health. Okay, is this person like if they tried to overdose, let's, you know, get them healthy enough to then discharge. Like it's never really about are you okay or asking those questions.

It's like we treat you kind of, yeah, just like the physical body. Symptomatically. Symptomatically, exactly. body. Symptomatically. Symptomatically. Exactly. Are there any like specific top favorite, most useful tools that you took with you from the experience of being a master? Yes. So the program I did is called DBT, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. And it's basically not talk. I mean, it's just not talk therapy it's um you learn behavioral skills that you can practice and it's been shown in research that kind of the more you do them then you actually can because your brain is constantly evolving like you have new pathways so you can kind of change your by

changing your behavior you can change your thoughts essentially so it's not like talk talk therapy where sometimes you're like talking in a loop like i was in talk therapy for years and years and i was like i know why i do things like i know my childhood trauma i know x y and z but in terms of actually making the change to do something different i felt very stuck and so that's what this program really helped me is it's like okay they don't even yes you talk about your history and things because that is important and there are multiple components of why people struggle there's usually a genetic component and then usually it's also environment um environmental like nature versus nurture so it's like the mix of the two um and some of these

sorry i'm like losing my train of thought yeah some of these behavioral skills are as simple as like if you're having a panic attack i'm sure you guys have seen this on tiktok like dumping your face in ice water that's a a literal DBT skill. Like, I'm not even kidding. I went there as what, 23 year old, I think, 23 or 24. And I'm like, why? This could have been so useful for me, even in like middle school or like my first breakup with a boyfriend, just like little simple, they're called skills.

But also it's how do you, like, how do you talk through difficult, one part of it, sorry, is like naming your emotions. That's something that I went into this program and I was like, wow, I feel like I'm like five years old again. Like, what are the 10, you know, most most used emotions and then what do they actually do for you and they have like a reason i don't know all these different things and so it was kind of just like learning about being human wow are there any other tools like the ice one because now i'm i'm breathing breathing is one of them different like breath techniques um to also slow your heart rate down another one that i learned esther was um to kind of it's it can't not not a full kill switch like

the ice um thing the ice in your face thing but when i'm having a severe panic attack is because it's like a perceived threat that doesn't actually exist right it's like this rush of adrenaline that i don't know where it's coming from i'm and now'm afraid, I'm fearing the fear. So it becomes this, you know, I do this thing where it's like, I look to my left and I look behind me and I look to my right and I look behind me and I look all over. It's sort of your body's way of saying, look around you. There's actually nothing there. And it's not as effective as the ice thing but it does work it's one of the the um the things that i've learned to cope at least with my panic attacks it and another one is obviously the the cross tapping that helps i do like the this a lot. I've heard like, there's like something about like trying to stay grounded of being like,

this is a chair. Identifying five things in a room. Touching objects, stuff like that. But the ice one, I feel like for some reason, just thinking of the feeling of ice water on my face, I can tell that that would like change my, change me. Yeah. They're called tip skills. It's called tip your body temperature.

So there's, I think the I must be the ice. No, T is for temperature. Wow, can I remember that? It's been like three or four years. One of them is, oh, I is I think intense exercise. So yeah, if you like jump rope really quick or do like literally, yeah, jumping jacks or jump down and do a couple pushups,

again, it changes your heart rate. So just the shift in heart rate can kind of calm you down. One of the P's is for paced breathing. And then the other one is, okay, so temperature. Yeah, paced breathing. Paced breathing and progressive relaxation i don't know if i remember that p but yeah um which is you know in paired muscle relaxation yeah and that's where you like squeeze your muscles as hard as you can if you're like really freaking out and then you relax them and it like

literally we would just practice this you would do it for like months and months so then it becomes second nature of like when you're actually because it's one thing to like sit in a class and learn something but then to actually go and use it you know that was a hard part for me is applying it when i'm already in the crippling anxiety would have gotten there it's like i don't want to move a muscle i don't even want to look any direction but what's in front of me because i'm just so fearful i'm almost frozen in fear right so to get myself to stand up and get ice yeah it's it's but that's why you have to that's why you have to practice practice when you're not in panic so that when you are in panic, you know what to use or know how to use these skills. Habitual.

So it's like your body knows how to go do it. Exactly. And so those are some of the skills like the more behavioral ones. And then a lot of them is just learning how to navigate like communication. how to navigate like communication and if you're having like a like interpersonal issues is kind of one of the big parts of dbt or what they use to combat it um and yeah if you're if you want something from someone how do you ask them and kind of be oh that's a big one yeah that's one of them and what like what so what let's talk about that that's a big one for you like um play adult or call um the call spectrum because my internet is down i have to rehearse something

in my i have to say it out loud before the woman answers because then i fumble and i don't and i get into this whole panic of like talking to a stranger, asking them why my internet's down. And then I, it's a weird thing that happens. It's like my brain freezes around like, what I consider authority figures and the spectrum people are authority figures. In my mind. You're like, please don't take away my TV.

Yeah, no, it's true. You're not wrong. They have all the power. Try, see me at across a bank teller i like i crumble like can i can i like i i start stuttering it's it's a whole thing i don't know what to ask i freeze this is making me want to be your husband so i can like take you to the bank and be like this is my beautiful lady she can't do it herself i'll i'll do it you make me feel useful oh it's also yeah it's great you have to think of it also so dbt was originally invented whatever created for

people who have borderline personality disorder that was the initial like so it's for people who struggle with you know managing their emotions with emotions, with interpersonal relationships. So that's kind of what it just like dumbs it down for you and helps you with the things that you struggle with. Do I think that DBT is helpful for everyone and anyone? Yes, because once again, this shit isn't taught in school. And when I was 10 years old, I wasn't sat down and said like, oh, what's the difference between jealousy and envy? And what's the difference between like jealousy and envy and what's the difference between when I'm sad and when I'm angry and how do I know when it's one but being masked as the other you know yeah okay so I've heard you talk a little bit about borderline

another podcast you seem to know more about it like than I do at least can you because it's something that I feel like I'm starting to hear more of in like our culture. And I don't know exactly what it is. Like if someone doesn't know what it is, how would you describe it? I know I don't want to like fuck it up though. Always makes me nervous to like say the definitions,

but technically it's a personality disorder. What I've learned from going to McLean is that it is usually nature and nurture mixed together. Usually people have a genetic predisposition, like it runs in their family, and then maybe they'll have a traumatic event that kind of pushes them over the edge. So that's not to say that if it runs in your family, you 100% will always have BPD because that's not how it works. But then sometimes if you have trauma on top of it, you don't always have to, then it can it can develop and yeah it is a mental health disorder

um i guess yeah it just causes functioning issues in your daily life mostly with like your relationships how you manage your emotions like there's nine criteria i believe one of them is like really like not being able to control your anger um another one them believe one of them is like really like not being able to control your anger um another one them another one of them is like intense paranoia usually when you're under a lot of stress it's here for you okay yeah fear of abandonment and that's a big one that's one of the big ones unstable relationships unclear or shifting self-image so self-image issues what does that mean like maybe depending on who you hang out with you will kind of change your identity how you dress like you don't you don't have a strong sense of self okay yeah another one

is self-harm or like suicidal behavior um impulsive self-destructive behavior, such as like shopping addiction, spending a lot of money, maybe a lot of drug use, drinking, sex. It can even show up as like eating disordered behavior, extreme emotional swings, chronic feelings of emptiness is usually one of the big ones. Do I have this? I don't think you do i think i don't think you do i think you're just like well i guess you know you have one emotion emotion yeah i definitely have a strong sense of self i'm not worried about that one but i'm like so usually you meet like six i think of the nine to be technically diagnosed but then there's people who like go to the program i was at and they'll come out of there and they only meet like three out of the nine.

So they're technically they don't have the diagnosis anymore in terms of like meeting the criteria, but they still have it. It's a lifelong thing. Right. I would say fear of abandonment is just my big one. But I kind of feel like maybe that is kind of fake. I feel like we have more of just an anxious attachment style. You and I. Yeah. Which I'm working on anxious attachment i did you guys watch the jonah hill documentary on netflix studs parts of it when

did it come out it just came out like a couple weeks ago it's like his it's on his therapist who's like this great leader in therapy or whatever phil studs. Pill studs, yeah. And so one of the things that I took away from it that is a big problem for me is attachment. I'm so attached to like anything that comes across. Like literally meeting you, my brain will be like, oh my God, I love her. I need her in my life forever. Like that's just how I am with everything.

I need it all the time. And she's got my name tattooed on her yeah to tell you enough that's so true we're just friends maybe they're lovers when the cameras go off i'm just kidding that's her attachment so far we're not there yeah i'm learning attachment is my big my biggest issue but on he talked about it in there and i was like whoa i could i feel like just hearing someone offer a solution to it of just like picturing yourself letting things go and i feel like i'm definitely on my way to working through that but i have um when i watch that documentary how he's like deals with like visualizing in your mind like some of

some of us aren't that visual in in my mind like when you tell me like think of an apple that apple is a very faded heart like there's no color to the apple i'm thinking about and others are able to really fully visualize an apple in like a 3d way in their brain so i kind of wonder if that only works for people who are able to truly like visualize in their brain in the same way that some of us don't have an internal monologue and some do. Like I don't hear my internal monologue. It's like very abstract thoughts in my head. And others really do.

They hear their voice. They hear everything, all of their thoughts. So it's like I think different, like I think that probably works for some people. I can't imagine it like working for me because it was like, picture yourself on a beach. I'm like, I can't get there. Yeah, that sounds like mindfulness. Yeah. And that's also a part of DBT.

I know I'm a big DBT person. I'm like always throwing it out at everyone. No, that's cool. I, because I remember it from my treatment program like cbt dbt and i just i i never like remembered what it was so now they use it for yeah eating disorder treatment all all depression anxiety all types of different illnesses and disorders and whatever it is so i hit a wall with talk therapy earlier this year and And in the same way you were saying like, hey, I can intellectualize my trauma. I can understand it in and out all upside down and still feel stuck.

Right. So. Or sometimes it's also when you're like harping on all that shit for so long. And you're like, wow, i almost just like feel worse i'm just like talking about how my life is shit or i'm not feeling good or things that happen to me that i can never change and are out of my control you're reinforcing it it becomes even more present as like it's in the forefront of your thoughts like i know that like there are some traumas i kind of like choose like not to touch because I'm like, let's not unearth that because I don't, if my brain has done a good job at sort of like keeping it locked away and I'm generally like a, you know, a functioning adult. Sometimes I think like I don't want to like unearth certain things.

to like unearth certain things but earlier this year i was like talk therapy is just like thankful it exists thankful i went through it but i went through a ketamine session i did ketamine for the first time like uh with um a therapist and like a doctor in your room and i it honestly changed changed my life yeah um i've never done ketamine with a doctor i've done ketamine with a doctor um so it's a little bit i'm sure a very different experience but i've heard good things about it again like i don't think it works for everyone right um and that's what they were saying so it's like if you have any like um predisposition to schizophrenia or any type of like schizo effect of anything, they said that maybe your brain doesn't have like the centrifugal force after a ketamine session to sort of bring your thoughts back together. Sort of like leave it in disarray and maybe even like trigger you into like, you know. An episode.

An episode. like, you know, an episode. Do you feel, did you fear though, any desire to like want to do it again or that it would bring up any like addiction stuff? No, because I'm, I think to them, how they explained it to me is like, I was a perfect candidate. I don't do drugs.

I hardly drink. I've never taken ketamine in my life. I've never done any like hardcore anything. So I was sort of like the perfect candidate of someone being depressed and like nervous breakdown and doing it in like a safe environment. Right. You're like not an addict. No, I'm not. Yeah. That's rare in our business. Like, wow, you're really not an addict it's funny because i really am not no i in fact i don't like the feeling of being um attached to anything like i'm afraid of you're

more avoidant yeah it's like this why i'm just so drunk i know wow i can like see the the magnetic charge between you two no it's well that is like i know my mom is also some like a rare person in my life i'm like you are just not an addict like she just doesn't doesn't get addicted to things it's so it's like mind-blowing to me because i'm the opposite of i'm an addict are you do you identify as one way or another definitely not with substances even though i've literally tried everything but i've just been i was talking about this with my therapist literally last week actually like i even she was like i don't really think of you as like with addiction i would say i'm more of an addict with people i'm a person addict yeah But I also think that's part of the BPD a bit.

I see. Yeah. Does that mean like sex and love anonymous? Like is that what? No. Or is that something different? No. I mean, honestly, like when I was kind of figuring out my mental health journey slash diagnosis, I thought maybe I was a sex, not a sex addict, but more of a love addict.

Love, yeah. And like relationship, like I always needed to be in a relationship since I was 16 sex, not a sex addict, but more of a love addict. Love, yeah. And like relationship, like I always needed to be in a relationship since I was 16, and I could never be alone. It was really hard on me. And then when I went to this program, my therapist was like, no, that's just borderline. Like you're not SLA. You don't need that.

You need DBT. And this is why I think, you know, this is like a brain thing and la, la, la, la. It's not just just that's the symptom is kind of the love addict if that makes totally yeah like desiring the relationships and needing someone to fill the void for me externally is yeah the band-aid it's not what's actually causing that void in the first place and it's the bbd that is so interesting because esther and i have always labeled ourselves relationship girls but maybe we can maybe there's something there that we should dig a little deeper because i'm i can relate to the fact that i'm always i'm very uncomfortable when i'm not in a relationship. I'm not a great single person. I'm horrible at being single.

And even in my single years, I hook up with people, like even my three-week little romances feel like love. Totally. I get high on people. I think I do too. That's my addiction. I think if you look hard enough, most people are addicts. That just may not be like the quintessential. It may not be like the quintessential it just may it may not be like the

quintessential drugs or alcohol right and also i think people tend to really overuse this idea of like being an addict and it's similar the way that like a lot of like male comedy podcasts would be like comedians versus civilians and i just think it's like so dumb we're all people we're all the same like normal people are very funny and like it's just yeah I so I am glad that's coming up again because I take it back it's like everyone is just a person doesn't have to be addict or not addict that's such a good point though I think the funniest people in my life are not comedians no comedians are just people who are like they have the right fucked up thing where they think

they need to get on the stage. Well, no, they're great performers. Yeah, but it doesn't mean that they're funnier than like the person who works at the DMV.

Like, I'm sorry, I don't think it does mean that. Like, I know they'll get mad at me, but. So if your New Year's goals are to manage your budget better and save money, you need Rocket Money. Say goodbye to last year's outdated, disorganized methods of managing your money

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Speed slower above 40 gigabytes. On unlimited plan, additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. Eileen, I have a question actually yes i was in aa for a long time and that's considered cbt obviously and i hit a wall where it was just like what you said a loop of talking about the same stuff and i heard it for years the same story over and over again and maybe 10% were lies if not more and I had I had an experience like Kalilah where I took psychedelic meds with a therapist and everything changed for me and I'm just wondering if you think that CBT and Alcoholics Anonymous and things like that may be outdated I don't think they're outdated I just think you can always use more than one thing okay because i think for me or

having sat in like i've sat in on an aa not for myself but i've gone with other people to support them and i feel like it's so much about like just getting through this day just don't use today and then tomorrow's a new day like it does help remain sober. But in terms of like really getting at why you were drawn to alcohol or drugs or substance in the first place, it doesn't really get at that meat, you know? But that's not the point of it. The point is to help you remain sober. I think if you think of everything as just a supplement to each other. Cross training. I mean, we did CBT too. um i think if you think of everything as just a supplement to each other like cross training i mean we did db we did cbt too like uh i i do talk therapy with my therapist yeah and i think they

can all be used in conjunction okay um and i also think it's really important to like i just did an episode last week on how to find a therapist and like my experience with therapy because i have seen a lot of shitty therapists and like i have great insurance i have the money to pay for out of pocket like i'm so privileged in the grand scheme of things but at the same time i've also had a lot of really shitty care so i'm like okay then what about the people who don't have good insurance or you know don't have the same kind of avenues that i do um and i feel like you should interview a therapist like you would someone you're gonna date like you don't take a random person the first person you meet on the street and you're like hey you're my part you're my boyfriend or girlfriend

or um some of us in our early 20s so like first guy that asks sure but really having those conversations of like okay what kind of therapy do you do do you do like you have to look at it as like they work for you in a way like we're working on me together yeah we're a team but i shouldn't be like i don't know i feel like people will go into those conversations or a phone call with a new therapist and they're like too scared to ask anything they don't want to be rude you know and that's just things like you have to once again get better at practicing but yeah what kind of patients do you take what kind of therapy do you do um have you like this is what i want to work on do you think you could help me do you feel like maybe we're not

a good fit could you refer me out to someone like having those conversations what kind of therapy like what would be the right answer for someone like you if you ask what kind of therapy do you do would you say like dbt i would say dbt just because of my diagnosis that's like the prime treatment or the prime type of therapy and like for example if you have ocd or like how your mom is like if she wanted to get help she should do exposure therapy or work with an ocd specialist and another element to that too is like my mom she is an immigrant there is a language barrier there is like a huge like cultural difference cultural barrier so too. So it's like, that's another level of, you know,

trying to like figure out a match because it has to be someone who understands her culture, understands like, you know, for her, it's like seeing a therapist is the ultimate shame, right? She comes from a country that is like, you just throw, you know, sweep everything under the rug and you just grin and bear and you white knuckle life. So it has to be someone who really understands that. So I think it is a very, I love, I love that you're basically giving us like a blueprint on what questions to ask

because it simplifies it for someone who is afraid to go in and kind of like fumble like an interview because it is already a very, very like you're going in there at the height. A lot of us are seeking therapy at the height of like not feeling feeling like shit. Right. And now we have to talk to a stranger and being like, are you are you are you for me? Are you not for me? And it's uncomfortable to even open up to a therapist. Like usually in the beginning when you're seeing someone new it's really freaking awkward you're like hey you don't know me i don't know if we're a good match yet and i'm gonna open up about my life and usually like

really intimate vulnerable details but i think i just want to reiterate it's not one size fit all fits all and if someone doesn't work there's another thousand people out there and maybe one of them well so you can't be afraid to like try someone else and usually i feel like therapists will kind of give you the like one session or kind of you know it's a free phone call it's not like you have to pay for that and just interview them yeah you mentioned exposure therapy and i it's like all coming back to me all these words that you like so that sounds like it could it's like all coming back to me, all these words. So that sounds like it's like this like, what is that? Like this crazy thing.

But I remember we did that in my treatment program and it was actually so simple and it was so right for me. It was so scary, but like, not scary, but. No, it can be really scary. It's essentially just showing you like the thing that you fear. So if you you're just an example you brought up today is like your mom with the hangers like maybe she feels and this is just an example but like if they're really close together then like it's out of order it's gonna fuck up her day um and so in exposure therapy they would have her like fuck them all up because it's showing you like your deepest fear or what's giving you paralyzing fear in this moment isn't going to kill you yeah so like a great example is literally what they have an ocd clinic at mclean hospital the hospital i went to i wasn't in that program but it's like one of the best ones it's called ocdi um and if someone comes to them with like extreme arachnophobia

this is the example i always give they'll start by like looking at a photo for like one second like you're scrolling through instagram and then like maybe a spider pops up and it's just to go through it but they'll work with them and okay maybe that like makes them want to scream or cry or run across the room but they'll slowly keep showing them that, okay, it's just on the screen. It's not going to kill you. And then they get to the point where they literally bring in a live tarantula and they let it walk on their face. That's like the, when you graduate the program kind of. Do they have this for cockroaches?

Yeah. I mean, they have everything and anything. That's like a very. That's for cockroaches. That's a very like specific visual example. But then there's a lot of like internal pure oh, or like just obsessions that don't have a compulsion attached or a behavior attached to it.

For my exposure therapy, which it like still makes me so uncomfortable to think about, but it was literally, and you will laugh at this. so uncomfortable to think about but it was literally and you will laugh at this it's so stupid but it was like we all had to have our like trigger foods like foods that you would like really want to overeat on and so like we would we all it was like watching a movie day we went and watched a movie in the basement and um i had like a really small bowl like serving size of sour patch watermelon and like a single serving of popcorn and i was like i hate like i hated it i just hated the thought of having like my two favorite things and just having only a small amount but

like having that experience it was so valuable to me to be like, oh, this is possible. I was, it's possible. It happened. I mean, it shows, it literally like shows your brain that like when it gets triggered, it can still get through it. And like your body, it's, it's really amazing, but it's really difficult. And like a lot of, like I commend anyone who goes through any type of exposure therapy. I think it's the hardest type of therapy.

I mean, you're literally like facing your fears. And yeah, I mean, I've seen people get like really emotional. It's really, really difficult work. Yeah. But it does change your life. Like if there's one takeaway from this episode, it's like going away or even doing therapy changed my life. Like I am a completely different person than I was three years ago in the best way.

That's how I feel too. That's how I feel about my treatment, which was literally just for binge eating. And like, I feel like it helped everything else in my life. Also, cause I know you mentioned like, it's harder for the older generations. Like therapy is so stigmatized they think like that's for crazy people i i was so blown i was went home for thanksgiving and i

heard my dad say postpartum depression that's when the woman wants to kill the baby right and i was like it almost it blew me away because it was so comical to me. But I'm like, that is what he thinks. I remember when I thought that's what it was. But postpartum depression is just being sad. It's just depression after pregnancy. It doesn't mean you wanted to kill your baby necessarily. But it's so funny. I also don't think that postpartum is the underlying.

Like that's more killing your baby is like a band-aid weird solution and like a crazy case of it. Yeah, but it's just like, people don't really know about mental health. It's kind of surprising. I mean, it doesn't surprise me and that's sad, but it's just like, no one talks about it. They don't teach it in schools.

Yeah, also, on would flip side though? Yeah. Because we are starting to talk about mental health. What are your thoughts on people? I have to pee. Sorry. I might have to pee soon. No, no, we can't.

Let me answer this. What are your thoughts on people just willy nilly diagnosing people? Oh, like on TikTok and stuff too? Yeah, like on TikTok. TikTok diagnoses are just like insane. No i i think you need to go to a real professional and i think of that even with like therapy too like oh sorry part of my episode about finding a therapist was like i prefer finding a therapist who's part of a larger organization so whether that's a hospital or university um and then a lot of the times they'll work in tandem

with other people kind of in their programs. So you have more than one, like you have more eyes on your case. You have a team. Exactly. And that makes a huge difference. Yeah, I mean, there are just a lot of people who are not,

like they don't have the credentials to back it up i guess like everyone's a narcissist everyone is a yeah and that's a really overused term that's always wrong like everything i see online is wrong about wait i feel like i recently came across this too like no i just read somewhere that like literally every human being is a narcissist. Like. Okay, so there's healthy narcissism and then there's narcissism that is like, oh, fuck, what's the word? That's going to bother me. Oh, I'm hungry. I'm down for a bit.

Wait, no. Do I have to do something weird? I don't know. You never know. Wait, no, do I have to do something weird to know? I don't know. You never know. It's just a potassium re-up in the same way that ice to the face, potassium to the heart is good.

Okay. Yeah, that's all this is. Sorry. Wait, the mic's on, right? Yeah. Oh, I was going to say sorry. I feel like sometimes I'm such a, not a boring guest, but I just like I'm not the most charismatic person. I mean, I literally made a career out of being depressed. No, this not i'm not even kidding that like is my career people will always be like oh you're not a therapist or like i'll get these messages like that or like

what makes you feel like you have the credentials to talk about this stuff and i'm like no no i'm not pretending to be a therapist over here i'm just talking about my own experience of like being mentally messed up wait I'm so confused you've been engaged actually for five years so wait wait can can you just tell Eileen um when Dave how long ago Dave had his bachelor party Dave my fiancee does he listen to this podcast yes it's gonna hurt his feeling no why no why would it hurt his feelings i don't know no you're gonna hit what why wouldn't it we know so we got engaged his bachelor party was definitely at least four years ago now uh who's getting cold feet here no one is getting cold feet we are actually at a weird like

we're at a standstill where we're we're still negotiating the terms of our wedding which is basically he wants to have a wedding with family okay and i want to elope i that's i just wedding culture is like why can't you do a mix? Oh man, I'm such a problem solver. It's crazy. I'm like, okay, you do the, you elope for the actual wedding. You have a little weekend away with you guys. And then when you come home or you do your like a week honeymoon somewhere fun.

And then you come back and you get like a wedding party with your family and friends. Cause that's really important to him. That's, That's interesting. I also think that like growing up, my parents literally got married in a courthouse and had no wedding. And so to me, like, and I'm not religious. I just have no attachment to marriage culture, wedding culture. Man, I'm so the opposite. It's scary.

Why do you think? culture man i'm so the opposite it's scary why i know and people like i feel like with my whole online persona or everything that i do and talk about they that's shocking for them oh my gosh if you ask my friends i have presentation of what my wedding looks like i make i make my friends they've all seen my presentation be presented to them it's always though like i know exactly where my wedding is i know what i want to wear la la la it's the only thing that plug in husband tbd does it change though no so it's been a fixed thing this is how i want yes will you tell us a little bit about this plan i feel like i can't okay that's okay i know i'm just kidding no i do present it, though, to people. But, yeah, I mean, I want to get married at a very specific place in France.

I know. And I want a small wedding, like maybe 30 people is fine. That I like. Is that considered a micro wedding? Yeah. Yeah. Like maybe 40, depending on, again, who I marry and how many people he wants to bring. But, like, sorry to my cousins.

Like, no cousins. Like, my siblings, I i obviously i want them there and my friends but that's pretty much it but you sort of eliminate the stress of having to invite a whole lot of family when you do destination wedding anyways right yeah or i think a lot of people just like you invite them and they can't come which you kind of expect but i just want yeah tiny a small wedding with really good food i want pink peonies is my favorite flower i are really pretty yeah and i just want it to be like a chill i want it to be with people i have an emotional connection with like i've gone to weddings or even thanksgiving

this year with my extended family and i'm like wow you guys are all strangers but we're blood related so i'm sitting in this room with you and it feels really awkward and i had such bad social anxiety this year that i got really drunk and i'm like that's not what i want at my wedding i want to know that like everyone's here and they really know me for me and they're like happy for my love and they want to celebrate this moment with me and that's what i want because that is a specific kind of trauma like having to um get it's always this forced um um love with family that i've had to deal with like especially like filipinos right i've had to spend so many christmases with the person that diddled me because it's christmas like you know um everybody like you know every

this is a truce um everyone is invited and i have to sit there and eat my freaking you know what i mean like spiral ham while looking at the guy that like diddled me and everyone's like here he got you a gift and i'm like thanks and you know and but it's like the expectation to just like lay out yeah lay down your defenses like it's christmas time and now you're forced into this room with your murderous uncle and the fucking you know diddle king and you're just like okay you know i guess so i love that i love that it's like you know that's just like also a boundary that I feel like maybe five, six years ago wouldn't know how to uphold. And now like that is something that's really important to me. Like even at Thanksgiving this year, it was so awkward.

And I'm not super close with my dad's family that I told him. I was like, next year, you know, I don't really know if I want to go to that Thanksgiving. And my dad's supportive. And he was like, that's fine. and he was like that's fine like you don't have to if you don't want to you can do something else um boundaries I'm 34 and I can't believe I literally learned about them like this year like it's crazy and then again it's like practicing because like when you you know we can talk about boundaries all we want. And like, I could journal about what my boundaries are, but then I come into like a heat of the moment thing and they all disappear.

Like, I don't know how to withhold that. I don't know how to tell someone like, hey, that made me uncomfortable in the heat at the moment when you feel awkward or anxious. So it's like practice, practice, practice, tell people your boundaries too, like close friends. So I feel like in moments, if they're with you, they can also help you uphold them, if that makes yes oh my god klyla we need to practice that i

need you need to help me yeah or you know because if you're out and you're like drinking you're at a bar and like maybe you told your friend like hey i have this boundary recently we're like i really i want to take some time for myself and i don't want to hook up with anyone and then you're like a couple drinks in and you're like, oh, this guy's flirting with me. Let me go for this like external quick validation. And your friend could be like, hey, hold on a minute. We had this conversation today. Is this really what you want to do?

Oh, I feel like that's the role that I would like excel at. Like you're help me. I really can. Like I would love to be your little boundary coach. Like I'm- Your little babysitter. Like I have such sidekick energy, low key. Like I feel like I would love to be your little boundary coach. Like, I'm a babysitter. Like, I have such sidekick energy, low key. Like, I feel like I would love to do that.

I would love to be that role for people. I'll let, I'll be so sure I have a situation under control and then walk out of there being like, oh, I let that person trample all over. I know, right? And then just. Or it's like, like wow the bar was so low well i feel like we're a good option like we're a good pair because for me i would i feel

like you have a hard time like saying no and and for me i'm like a come on let's like oh i love you let's do this and so it like we're like we're a potentially toxic combo of that. But with the awareness, we could really like exercise with each other of like. I think that's a really good point you're making because I can firmly say no on behalf of somebody else, but not for myself. Like when Bobby, my ex-partner, used to have a lot of trouble telling people, no, like, hey, let me open for you on the road or let me do this. He would always say, talk to Kalilah.

And I was the person who could say no for him. I cannot say no for myself, but maybe you can be that person for me. Wait, that's actually so amazing. It's also like help, but it's helping you practice to be able to do it yourself and one day esther because you know they're not always going to be there to like save you in that

moment right oh esther will be there one ring she doesn't let let the phone ring one ring she's there um and even for our other our co-host annie who's not here today like when she told me that she wanted to quit smoking cigarettes like it was the best moment of my life because i didn't even know she'd smoke cigarettes but i was like i got you like she's i made her send me this long text of why she wanted to i feel like here's the contract that i need you to sign yes fully and like she every time you smoke one you put ten dollars in my piggy bank yes like i'm so good at keeping that keeping other people in line that's really weird um but oh back to wedding i will say i have one detail of two details of my wedding if there is one planned which is one my friend roomie neely is going to design the dress

and she's like she her brand is are you a mine it's all this like hot super hot girl clothes so i'm like excited that has motivated me just sent me a ton of stuff over the weekend really and i never thought that i would look good in any of this stuff but i put it on i'm like and i i honestly i look so fucking hot i need photos that's so unfair i need photos of esther you would die you would eat me out so fast this is when we put it in the youtube video pops up your selfie your mirror pit i'll send it to you thank you and then i also know that i want to have really dramatic vows like i really want to have like vows that make everyone uncomfortable even though in my fantasy also no one will be there but

i is this just like just to get under dave's skin and be performative or a little bit yeah yeah yeah this is your princess diana let me dance for you yes yes yeah yeah he already said that like he needs to have one of his friends proofread my vows because he doesn't trust me so throw in some jokes yeah yeah like mike sure will be punching up my wedding vows um but okay yeah those are my two wedding things that i at least but we'll see i don't know it may never happen pastor that's like that just sounds like a threat like poor dave he's like well okay i'm gonna elope because i don't want her to leave me no we're not that's the thing you guys live together yeah we live together they're the best like they're made for each other i'm just thinking because i don't want to live with my person before we get married you don't i know and everyone thinks i'm crazy i know i

actually i get that i get i have like super well actually this is hilarious so my ex-boyfriend and i i didn't want to marry him at the time but we always joke like oh if we break up like when i'm older and around the age that i do want to get married like we can get back together and get married and i was like but i but if we start dating again i don't want to have sex until we get married even though we've had sex obviously and he was like that's a really good way to get cheated on oh fuck that's not what i was gonna say that's like a good way to get no but he's like no but no but he was like what if you're engaged and you have and you have to plan a wedding for like eight months or six months and to not have sex if you had been having sex like he was giving me his honest opinion he wasn't trying to be crass yeah and i was like okay

that's fair i didn't think about it like that i've been into that idea of like but then is that like weird puritanical like probably some like internal misogyny that i have and a lot of internal sexism going on over here maybe i don't want to live together here. Maybe I don't want to live together. And like, maybe I don't want to fuck while we're like planning the wedding. So we have something to like, look forward to the night of, I don't know, but it could all change. This is me right now.

Things are constantly. Maybe you just find it hot. For me, that sounds hot. Like, Ooh, we're going to wait it out and I'm going to be so fucking cum dumb at our wedding.

I'm so turned on by that idea i'm gonna withhold i think if i told dave that we're not gonna have sex till our wedding i think i think he would finally hit me i think he would just hit me he'd be like no bitch like we're not really i'm into that you are yeah something about the edging that... Oh, I thought you meant the hitting her. Not hitting you. Now that it's funny to laugh at Dave hitting me, but it kind of is. You would like it. You did hit her.

You would get married immediately. You did hit her a couple of weeks ago. You were going to hit Annie. I don't know if you threw a banana and you actually hit Esther. I didn't strike. We don't have to call the police. I threw a bunch of stuff including a gun wait i'm confused you're not engaged no no i would annie the girl that sits there yeah yeah okay the writer

whatever i threw a bunch of stuff at her because i was angry i acted out i need dbt and um and esther got in the way and she was trying to get out of the line of fire but hey what did you throw a banana these trash cans no yeah me and your dad are settling out of court oh he didn't tell me carlos's dad is a is a um a doctor he's a lucrative surgeon oh so so esther and him plastic so so esther and him plastic no no oncology yeah important stuff important stuff yeah yeah after years of fine print contracts and getting ripped off by overpriced wireless providers if we've learned anything it's that there's always a catch so when i heard that for a limited time all mint mobile wireless plans are 15 a month when you purchase a three-month plan i thought where's the catch?

But after talking to them, it all made sense. There isn't one. Mint Mobile's secret sauce is that they sell wireless services online. They don't have retail stores or salespeople. Instead, they deliver premium phone plans directly to you. As you guys know, our friend Rick Glassman, he uses Mint Mobile. I learned about Mint Mobile through George Kimmel. George is a busy guy. He takes the most business calls. And the fact that not a single call is ever dropped. And you can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all of your existing contacts. Say goodbye to your overpriced wireless plans. Mint Mobile is here to rescue you with plans starting at 15 bucks a month. And all plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's

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I want to ask you guys, I saw this thing on TikTok about men losing their not losing, but having sex for the first time with what is it, Carlos? It's not for the first time that they're having sex it's just that men like escorts who are older like oh i understood that differently okay young guys love the secret lives of older sex workers wait so i've actually but my last episode was called my i'm in my cradle robbing era. I've been exclusively hooking up with younger guys. Wait, really? Yeah, they are. No, no.

But I did an episode on that. And I have faced so much backlash and judgment. That's crazy. I don't know what it's like. But I actually have. Some of my friends will give me so much backlash and judgment that's crazy what it's like wait but i actually have like some some of my friends will give me so much shit and i just feel like there's a lot of yeah there's a lot of sexism i feel like it's so normalized for men to date younger girls or fuck younger girls and it's like they're almost like put on a pedestal when they do it but then

if a girl does it it's kind of like look down upon what is that experience like because i have to say the thought of younger guys is so unappealing to me in fact like i think i'm the only woman on earth who is completely immune to being attracted to pete davidson simply because i met him when he was so young that I'm like, ew, he's just a little kid to me. Like, I don't get it. How, like, what is your experience been with younger guys? Do they even know how to do it? I mean, actually, okay.

No, I mean, yeah, some of them do not at all. And then some of them have been, I think there's a mixed thing. So for me, background, I am not emotionally available right now. I don't want to be in a relationship i feel very scarred from my last like serious breakup i was in like an on and off thing with my ex-boyfriend for years like it was a serious relationship that kind of turned into a situation ship and i just feel really exhausted from that experience and just not in a place where i'm ready to like yeah be emotionally there for anyone or get hurt or commit or be vulnerable i love hearing you say

that i love i've never really heard someone be like oh so here's the deal i'm not emotionally built right now here's why like that's so mature oh you say it more eloquently than me i'm what i've been telling people is like 80 is my max you're gonna get 80 and that's it like no i feel like i'm even lower but i but at the same time i am like a little bit of like we talked about an addict for people right i'm addicted to people so i think it's this perfect mix of like a younger guy is not really going to expect me to date them and for the most part i feel like they tend to be like pretty obsessed with you they have like an amazing sex drive because they're like horny all the time and and i also like have no problem teaching someone what to do so it's just been

kind of fun but i think it's more of like I feel protected and that this is never going to become anything. And I almost group them in of like I don't take it too seriously. Right. It's just fun. You're my toy boy. Right. It's what you need right now. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that sounds perfectly fine. So I'm in my cougar era. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. Fun. The very few times I sort of was hanging out with a younger, dumber guy, I remember we

were on a walk and he'd be like, do you think I could hit that sign from here? It was like- No, no, no, no, no. I definitely- I'm not even kidding. I have those moments, though though where i'm like please just don't open your mouth yeah no seriously and that's something like i've had to just you know i am kind of accepting of those things to get the other things of what it what and and think to myself

like what is this providing me and actually like this guy that i've been seeing just ended things with me because he was like i really want a relationship and i want something more and i know that that's not what you want slash like you don't really see anything beyond kind of what this is and that's not what i want and like i don't want to get hurt la la la so we ended things and i was like okay i mean i thank you for your service yeah thank you for your service and on to the next and here's your purple heart yeah yeah i mean at least he was honest and like he could communicate that with me yeah and what a great like for young men at least what great practice it is to have healthy sexual relationship with a girl yeah like boundaries and like sober a lot of the time and like hang out and just like really comfortable learning how to break things off the right way

like everything i i think that's almost like honestly you're doing god's work that's charitable yeah that is that is right i know but it's hard to also not like i'm a human and i definitely like fuck my life up all the time and have an ego so it's hard to not like you know in my right mind when i'm feeling great i can be like okay we'll let it let it just dissipate and like we can remain friends or be friendly but then i'll have other moments where i'm like fuck you right so it's like it's a learning experience for me too to not be so attached like i feel like I always was always in these super serious, almost love-bombing relationships. And then they would crash and burn and I would jump right into the next one. And this is the first time in my life this last year that I've been single after that horrible breakup.

And I'm just kind of like, okay, I don't feel single necessarily because I am seeing people like I'm never alone, but I don't have like a boyfriend or someone that I'm like committed to. Right. I kind of want to defend like not liking being single. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think both being single and being in a relationship, like they shouldn't be at odds with each other it shouldn't be like but that's that's to say um you can be in a healthy you can be yeah exactly because i feel like you need to know yourself and love yourself before you can be in a relationship or else you're bringing like you know this person into my life to fill a void that has nothing to do with them yeah and i

feel like that's what i did for years and years like i would date people and settle in relationships where i was like i fucking hate this guy like i have nothing in common with him if i wasn't so miserable and empty feeling like i would never date this person i'm i don't think they're interested yeah i did that for years but i'm like i don't want to be alone and it's someone who it's like a warm body they can come and lay down lay next to me we have sex maybe they're like obsessed with me we go to dinner we like hang out and go on vacation together it's just basically like cuffing season but all year yeah that's what i would do for years and i always felt like i'm like wow i feel even more alone and I'm with someone right that's because you don't relationship with my mom because you don't know me for me right yeah and I like we're not gonna skip over that I'm like you're obsessed with me like it's kind of like being alone like I really

relate to that I really did I had a meltdown yesterday with my mom and um i wasn't in the family forgot to invite me to my favorite korean restaurant which they all went to and they knew i was alone at home hungry how do they forget that's what i'm sorry i'm not believing that story um so they might have told you that story i'm confused so they were all supposed to go to the americana in glendale and they were like do you want to come and i said no i don't but they failed they changed their plan to my favorite korean spot but then they didn't invite me they were like we already invited you americana you didn't want to hang i was like that's not the point i introduced you guys to sunung dan you need to invite me to sunungdan okay i kind of get their

point yeah they're like she already flaked and like didn't care about the plans right just because of the restaurant she didn't want to hang out with us so then why should she come to right so my mom i only found this out yesterday they were like oh yeah we ate at sunungdan last night i'm like what what do you mean and then i started to raise my voice. I was like, listen, like I'm hurt. Like my feelings are hurt. And my mom is so old school. She doesn't know what like hurt feelings are. She's like, get the fuck over it.

Yeah, she's like, what do you mean? And so it turned into this whole fight where I'm like, I just need you to acknowledge that something like that would hurt my feelings. And she doubled down and now she is stonewalling me and giving me the cold shoulder and won't speak to me because I raised my voice because my feelings and she doubled down and now she is stonewalling me and giving me the cold shoulder and won't speak to me because i raised my voice because my feelings were hurt and so i know this is so dumb but like this is their relationship with my mom currently or like when you're like

i'm i feel like she's always there but i always feel alone somehow yeah like that's it or i'm like can you just accept that i can have these feelings she's like no you're not allowed to have those feelings because that is a dumb feeling to have to feel like angry over sunung dan that's that's very similar to my dad my dad like when i i had a sort of a life breakdown like right before COVID. And when I flew home to see my parents, cause I thought that was going to help. I was crying hysterically as I got into the car and my dad just looks at me like, stop crying.

You're not sad. And I'm like, like, this is why I have problems. Like we'll not acknowledge. I don't know. Yeah. No acknowledgement of feelings.

But then you have to, I don't know. I feel like I've got gathered so much more empathy and understanding of my dad. Totally. Because I'm like, wow, you are, like, you didn't grow up with this communication around emotions or feelings. Like, if I thought I was stunted, you're like a hundred feet behind me. Yeah. Just in terms of like

those years and societally. And I think that's part of growing up too, right? It's like meeting people where they're at. Like I can look at my mom with like utmost empathy, even though I did yell at her yesterday, but I can look at her with empathy and being like, I'm going to meet you where you're at. And she, I am stunted, but like you said, like she was stunted. She was not given. I know. And it's like also trying to change someone in their 60s or 70s or however old is very different than like in their 20s or 30s. Oh, man.

That makes a lot of sense because I've been trying to change my parents and my dad is 79. And I'm like, I should just kind of call it a day. Radical acceptance. Yeah. That's a part of DBT. It's accept where your life is, that you cannot change the things that have happened to you. I mean, it's kind of like the AA thing.

The AA little. Right. Accept the things you cannot change. Wait, Carlos. So you had sex for the first time with an older woman? Yeah. Recently? No, I'm 35 now.

You had sex for the first time? I had sex for the first time i had sex for the first time on my 20th birthday in marina del rey with an escort and how was that an escort who set this up for you how did you find her i found her myself online um it was a lot of fun actually and she didn't know i was losing my virginity so it's like this secret i had and we had a good time and yeah how much older was she i think she might have been like 16 17 years older than me okay yes and overall you felt like you had a good experience yeah i mean i did it a million times after that so yeah yeah but like my relationship towards women was definitely like altered as a skewed though definitely i didn't go to college for more than a year so like

i always think like i didn't i was sober too so i didn't go to parties or out in la or anything like that so getting girls i was just like well i can't get girls because i'm 20 in the second largest city in america so i'm just gonna buy them and i just did that until i felt like i could get a girlfriend basically and when you did finally get a girlfriend um were there any sort of like there isn't there are issues at first what do you mean when i had my first girlfriend in la it was so different than being with an escort obviously that i had to like adjust what like sex was to me i was like oh this isn't like a transaction because i'm bored or whatever or because there's no like basketball on tonight like this is like a loving right you can't just say show up and fuck there's

actual like there's foreplay there's like setting them up setting up yeah i guess yeah i had to learn but i also think that this may sound crazy but scene escorts helped me like like i never got canceled or anything because i was with these girls and i was like nice to them because they were all basically older than me yeah you always ate them out too yes you do know that part about me too i love that well i i feel like okay i i want to try to articulate this for you because you've said this and i think it's it is kind of interesting like like you were because you would pay a sex worker for sex you didn't feel like you had to like bully girls into sleeping with you which is like what other like gross men and will do and so i do think they're that's pretty never cared about getting

laid at a bar or anything like i remember being with like Benji at a bar and like there were girls and I was like, I don't care about these girls at all. They're all like assistants at agencies and shit. Like I don't give a fuck about them because I'm going to go have sex with an escort in Westwood in an hour. And she's like a supermodel. And I will, I don't have to deal with it an hour later. This is a little problematic.

Do you ever feel like any weird like guilt of like why are they in the situation um i feel like i have had that before and that's why like me seeing escorts has definitely decreased um but my best experiences were with girls who were more just like like us here they were just they were like only fans girls before they were there was only fans basically um yeah what are your thoughts on this i've because like carlos i do feel like it comes off a little problematic well i'll say this that's okay as somebody who is in a 10-year relationship with a guy who would regularly you know pay sex workers right it does while you guys were in the relationship no

no before okay but like serially like that's something that he just did regularly was pay for sex um it has it's i i can feel it i can feel that there is almost like a lack of learning how to be present sexually in a way that i needed him to be because he's used to sort of just being like yeah that's more transactional yeah so it was hard for him to understand the idea of like touching my shoulder or sweet talking me and kind of like you know like setting the build up and that you showing someone also that you care, it's not just purely sexual. Right, right. Or even having sex outside of the goal of just coming, you know, just being close and like intimate in bed. All of those things were really, really difficult for him.

And I felt that very strongly. like that you know ultimately our relationship didn't work because then he defaulted to um just watching porn every day because it was just you know a quick come he didn't have to put in the work for me and he could get his nut off every night as opposed to you know the effort it would take to get my engine going you know what i mean yes sex almost seems like chore maybe not a chore like it could be separate from a relationship which sounds like really bad but like i it feels like i don't this sounds so dumb like i'm tooting my own horn but i don't need to use women for sex because there are a million escorts out there and i can just be friends with women and have a good time and not have all that drama or like clouding my brain and I'm stressed out. Like I see all my friends get stressed out.

But I think what you're missing out on is the intimacy. No, not even love. It doesn't have to be love. Or just the intimacy of like having a sexual moment with someone that perhaps you don't feel in those more transactional moments. Right. Although it is worth noting he was married,

so he probably had that in your marriage, right? Yeah, I felt like I had a good sex life in my marriage for sure. And I thought that that would like change me in my relationship towards women, but I'm divorced now. Like I'm divorced and back on the market. I'm sure there's just pros and cons. I mean, I've had people on my podcast who are

like very pro sex work and inactive are active sex workers and then i've had ex-sex workers who are like very very against it and their view is that people are if they didn't have to be they wouldn't be a part of that world because it's very dark and so it's it's almost always if you dig a little deeper for you know kind of financial reasons and um i always tip sweet man carlos thank you um and so that's kind of where it's fucked up yeah it's interesting i i feel like i i i see i see both sides like i do respect carlos that he does see sex workers but i also see why it's problematic um yeah it's kind of like how as a consumer then like let's say you know

i'm a man looking for um transactional sex how do i discern who is in it for like because i mean we have friends who are in the industry both who are porn girls who have been successful porn girls for a long time like for instance i always use her as an example is asakira right grew up in new york really good um upbringing went to private school but just found herself super like hyper sexual at a very young age yeah that's like stella berry too yeah like stella berry wanted to parlay that into this you know thing right yeah um so like if i'm a man, is the responsibility on me then to choose or find a sex worker who truly is in it for the job, wants to do this? There are signs. They're more expensive or they don't have Russian accents.

Those are my two signs. I think this ex-prostitute, and that's what she likes to call herself, who came on my podcast, talked about- She uses the word prostitute. She likes that word. Yeah, because she's like, there's so many different types of sex work. And she was like, that is what I did. I was a prostitute. And that is the term.

I wasn't a cam girl. So she was like, that is what I like to use. But she really talks about how she feels like it's exploiting low-income women or it's people who are in kind of fight yeah financial situations where they have to be doing that and they wouldn't be doing it otherwise so it's kind of like exploiting that system but isn't interesting that is like to me that's like you could just look at our culture for that one like i would blame our culture for why women are in that situation i don't know i'm this is over my head but i will

i think the positive of it is like i'd rather see a guy see a sex worker, then like beg me to fuck him. You know, like the guys that you've hung out with who are aggressively trying to fuck you or like you don't want to have sex with them. And it's like, do you know what I'm saying? Or could they just change their behavior? Yeah, why put that on to a sex worker though? Yeah, because I feel like that same energy

that you hate in them now will be put onto another woman and a woman who's like getting paid so she has to shut up about it interesting and like why are certain women you know like why is there a totem pole of like some people are at the bottom of the totem pole and then other people are at the top and usually it comes down to like financial privilege or socioeconomic privilege you know like i'm like like i'm not in a situation where i have to you know be do sex work to like pay my bills for example i have a lot of different opportunities but there's some people that would come before that. And then there's many people who don't feel like they have

opportunities before that. So it's a lot more nuanced because basically you have the Stella Berries, right? Who are like, wait, she comes from a family who's, you know, her mom is a doctor, right? She was in school. She was going to school at, what is it? She has doctor right she was in school she was going to school at what is it she's sc or she was in college trying to be a doctor she went to nyu or nyu yeah she's going like the most expensive right so you have the stella berries which is the best case scenario yeah that is it's on her terms she fucks who she wants to fuck to make a video most of the time it's just with her boyfriend and she does it from like the privacy of her own or like the luxury whatever of her own home and then uploads it and she's like beautiful she's really skinny she's white she has all these things kind of working with her to make her only fan so big

you know but the struggle is not the same for somebody who is a sex worker and like she says at the bottom of the totem pole. So like having to walk down Culver, I don't know. I'm naming straight, I don't know. It's crazy how privileged it works in your favor even in sex work. So that is true, but can't I see the positive in the potentially positive versions of it?

Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Are there positives i feel like there are like i don't know i get that i'm not anti-sex work i think that there's just a lot more like you know you cannot just be so pro-sex work that you're blind to the idea of privilege and a different totally you know totally yes of course but also i'm like in this conversation like no one here is don't end up snoring so loud no one is gonna like solve the issue in our culture that like women are fucking so fucked over and they're like have no money and they're in these terrible situations. Like that's, I'm not going to solve that today,

but like I still want to be able to say that there are positive instances of it. Right. Or do you not, what do you think? I don't know. I think it depends. Honestly, like a lot of my opinions changed when I had this woman Esperanza on, but she also just talked about like the rates of people getting arrested. Like most of the time, Johns don't get in trouble they walk away with a slap on the wrist and then a woman who's in like more of a dire situation she's the one that goes to jail and then she can't pay her bail and it's like you just look at the system of a whole there is a lot of fucked upness yeah no i

i know can i just say i pay bail for a girl like five years ago in Orange County. She was really sweet. And I just want to put that out there. You're a good Samaritan. Carla, you're not on the back foot here. You're okay. But yeah. And also, don't you think it's a little bit like treating women like objects? You're like paying for a hole kind of.

But then I've also had people who are like. I wish my hole was paid for. I also had people who are like was paid for who are yeah i've had people who are like oh fuck i forget the term it's like surrogacy for people who like let's say if you were 40 years old and a virgin you would pay someone to kind of walk you through that experience or for someone who's like maybe in a wheelchair or something they'll have sex with you. And it's kind of, they're called intimacy surrogates. I kind of, okay.

So this is a really interesting topic to me because I have this idea in my head about being in like a long distance relationship with somebody. And not being able to see him maybe sometimes for like a month or relationship with somebody and not seeing being able to see him maybe sometimes for like a month or like a month and a half and i don't think i would be opposed to like a surrogate sort of like somebody that he both liked that was like a trusted person in our life to just sort of like have sex with him while i'm away or is that i mean is that am i just a cuck no i'm like if that could work for you like listen i say this about open relationships or polyamory all the time i'm like if it can work for you that's awesome i know myself it would never work for me i'm too jealous like i to me sex it's difficult for me sometimes to separate like

sex and love so i imagine other people even though i know people can totally have an opposite experience to that um and so i think that would be hard for me to separate if i knew that they were ongoing having this thing right but if it was more like hey it's like twice a week tuesdays and thursdays like you know we get together this is obviously not someone i'm picking out of random like no but don't you think you're playing with fire a little bit absolutely but i think they're like what if they're like oh i still want to do this when you're back or they're like hey let's have a threesome like i'm intimate with both of you i'd probably be open to that okay um but again you're right i mean i'm i mean

you have to be really just like confident and secure with yourself to do that and if you are then yeah i think like this is where we're we're like old old ladies and you're like not like because i because i also i'm like i remember a time where i would react exactly like that but maybe it's just like spending a year doing a podcast with kalilah i'm like okay like let's let's hear this like see where you're going it's also more of like a i'm tired i got shit to do and we're also apart but also it's like i um yeah let's say it doesn't threaten my being in a way that it once did. And it just seems very like something that's more

of like functional than emotional. But I don't know, like, who would you even choose? Like, what is the criteria for that? Because it, you are still ultimately playing fire. What if she falls in love with him? Right, right. Because if I'm choosing that guy, like he's a great guy.

He's choosable. He's very choosable. He's very choosable. But I also think, oh, something my therapist has been telling me like nonstop, which I feel like pertains to the situation is like even if they get feelings for each other,

whatever, it's not a replacement for you because his relationship with her will never be his relationship with you because it's not you. So like just being secure enough in that, I think is kind of like, okay, take it as it may. Yeah.

I like that advice. That's, I can apply that to all my ex-boyfriends now thank you one of my favorite things you ever screamed at me across the table of 50 people was kalilah will you have sex with dave her fiance what was the circumstance i think i was being silly, but also like, I do feel like when you're in a, when it's 10 years together and it's like people you trust, it's like, I could see a world where Kalilah is sexually involved with. And then Jenna was like, I'll do it. And you were like, you were like, not you. I didn't ask you. Jenna wouldn't be like as premium of an experience. Oh no. Is she going to gonna hear that she's fine um okay i'm trying to like think of any other well what is your oh my gosh i can't so cute do you i'm just curious just based on like everything so far what your relationship with or opinion of

porn is because i've been watching porn this morning okay okay so you don't you're not like against porn i don't know i mean no no i'm not against porn i think when you relate it to sex work and then I'm like, okay, what's the difference between the two? And do I think porn has a lot of negative consequences? Do I watch porn? Yeah, absolutely. Do I feel like it has negative consequences for like how people talk to women, treat women, view women on like a larger scale. Absolutely.

I think we would be silly to ignore that. Yeah. Especially with like younger people and younger men and just like also the effect on like porn is a lot of people's sex education. Yeah. And like they don't use condoms and like they don't show people getting tested. And,

um, condoms and like they don't show people getting tested and um and i think there's a lot of derogatory like really freaky shit on the internet and so you have to take it with a grain of salt yeah it's not so nothing's black and white yeah i get tested at this place called cutting edge testing and that's where all the porn girls go and they all sign i mean they're all tested to work in as a serious porn star like doing videos for like a legit company um they're getting tested literally like before you go to any set you're tested right i mean everyone's name is on there and in in fact, when you get tested, you can choose a package and there's a performer's package. Oh my God, I want that one.

It's very normalized and it's great. Yeah, but there's one even higher up than that, that I get, and that tests for both herpes one and herpes two, which is not part of like the other packages. There should be the John package. The John, our friend John or like? No, there should be the john package our friend john or like but it's like yeah they don't show because it's entertainment it was never meant to be sex education so it's like they don't talk about anything and there's no like warming up or

foreplay in porn usually like it's it's really not about the female pleasure in porn. Right. So I think that's maybe the type of porn that I watch is very geared towards the girl only receiving pleasure and not the guy. Like if I see any blowjobs, I'm out. Like, and I think this is why I watch a lot of- 99% of porn is going to be the other stuff. Yeah. I think this is why I end up watching porn with if i don't see a guy's face and um also a lot of girl on girl porn because it's girls pleasuring each other so it

feels a lot more like up my alley because as soon as a girl does anything for a dude i'm like fuck it out enough enough i do agree with you on that like a man's face is the last thing i want to see like the heads should be cut off keep them headless keep them headless yeah bag over their heads is great like even if remember when we talked about like having like a rub and tug but for women oh my god wait how did that work oh yeah part of like the job description for the men would be like are you okay with you know staying headless like and putting like wait it should be visible neck up it should be like the mass singer where they're like in big costumes like oh they have that really 100 it's called furries oh yeah i mean i think of literally anything and they will have it in porn.

Like any anime, any like TV, any movie, literally like a fucking children's cartoon. They will have sexualized that and you can find literally anything. Yeah, there's family guy porn. It's pretty gross. Carlos. What? I was just showing. I hate that.

That's so scary. Remove the top left one.is always like that the hell lois is a freak though i love her that was his bent over and spread disrespectful to lois carlos i'm never watching family guy with you again you're sick you've never seen family guy together maybe twice oh my god anything else kyle we um i think we covered a lot was this my list no this is our general oh because i was like pete and amrata do you want to talk about no i was just like i don't know why that would be on my list karen's are former pretty girls can i hear your hot take on that please well that was there's

no real take it was just this tiktok i saw that said like why women like they i don't know how i feel about this this is not my opinion but that like if you're a karen it's because like you're used to being treated the way you were treated like when you were young and beautiful and that like now you're mad at society which is a pretty misogynist take. What about male Karens? Because does that apply? No, because I feel like Karen is specifically for women. That term.

Bobby's a male Karen. Yeah. But I still feel like they don't get the same. Hate. Yeah. Same hate but also it's not as the same representation. Like the term Karen. Yeah. Just feels like it like i don't know what a bobby is that's just my act oh but a bobby could become a term no i don't think bobby is the correct name for a male karen i think it's like a

i forget the name but they someone has come up with it oh wait what are the insult names are like a chat there's a chad yeah is yeah chad is like i feel like chad is more like a that's like the jawline bro dude that's what every insult wants to be they want to be a chad right and then what are the girls that they hate they all have specific names oh yeah it's like a becky or some shit alexis yeah a stacy and a becky it's a stacy okay my ex-boyfriend was like a very interested in incel culture he's not an incel um and so he would always like be like looking on reddit and then telling me the stuff what's a stacy the stacy the stacy is the girl that like is the hot girl who doesn't want anything to do with them and they like hate the stacy's right and she fucks chad she fucks chad and who's the becky this is becky who does she fuck what's the fuck

baggy clothing to hide nerdy bun natural look five dollar backpack wants to fuck chad minimum wage job so basically the becky is probably the girl that they think should be fucking in cell yeah but they don't they want to fuck chad and so they're always just getting wage job so basically the becky is probably the girl that they think should be fucking the incel yeah but they don't they want to fuck chad and so they're always just getting um rejected her friends are white knights that defend her stupid opinions online they said that not me feminist needy will likely dye hair green or pink oh godverage six out of ten? This is brutal. I feel like I'm reading my biography. Let's Chad dominate her for Stacey and she cucks every man?

Wait, Stacey cucks every man? Hates basic bitches like Becky. Always has attention. Enjoys alone time. Shows off her body online because she knows she can make big money off virgin losers. Okay, I'm kind of obsessed i need to take a picture of the shows off body online to make money off of virgin this is so it's like it's clearly satire but like people actually believe this

right yeah i yeah they're like exaggerating, but I think that's what people believe. They spelled luscious wrong. So they're idiots. L-U-S-H-E-S. Yep, they did. Fucking box. Anyways, Eileen, thank you so much for taking the time and chatting with us. Thanks for having me over.

I love your studio. It feels nice to just have like a conversation candidly about mental health and yeah because we're we're very mentally ill so we're working on it i do think comedy it's like if you're drawn to comedy like it's coming from a place of pain yeah and so it's good to have these conversations and we appreciate you like sharing and being vulnerable with us so thank you and where can people find more of you yeah so my instagram is just my first name eileen so like the song come on eileen at e-i-l-e-e-n and then my podcast is going mental with eileen kelly and yeah i'll send it to you guys you can put it in the show notes or something okay cool we will thank you so much and we will see you guys next week for an all-new episode of trash

Tuesday bye guys