Trash Tuesday w/ Esther Povitsky & Khalyla Kuhn - How to Deal With Trolls w/ Therapist Kati Morton

Episode Date: January 31, 2023

More Kati MortonYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@KatimortonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/katimorton/Twitter: https://twitter.com/KatiMortonWebsite: https://katimorton.com/ Subscribe! https://bit.ly/HitOurButtonsOfficial Clips Channel: https://bit.ly/2QDAi8XTrash Tuesday Podcast iTunes Audio Feed: https://bit.ly/TrashTuesdayPodTrash Tuesday Podcast Spotify Audio Feed: https://bit.ly/TTPodAudioTrash Tuesday Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/itstrashtuesday 0:00 Revealing Too Much Too Soon to Therapist Kati Morton 3:52 Emotional Neglectful Parents & Helicopter Parents12:58 Negative Internet Feedback & How to Deal With Trolls33:37 When Esther Pretended to be a Dog Named Jacob as a Child39:45 Khalyla’s Pet Chow Mein Noodle Named Jerry42:36 Reconciliation With Your Parents When Your an Adult48:55 Best Things to Do When Going Through a Breakup 50:59 Esther’s High School Break Up54:59 The Forming of Attachment From Birth to 1 Year1:00:12 Khalyla’s X-Ray of Her Skull That Changed Her Perspective1:02:49 Psychedelic Therapy1:06:26 Birth Trauma1:09:30 Inner Child Work & Accepting That Our Parents Did the Best They Could1:20:50 Compersion & Being Securely Attached1:24:10 Constantly Being in Victim Mode Listen to our other Podcasts: TigerBelly - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tigerbelly/id1041201977 My Pleasure - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/my-pleasure/id1494518220 AnnieWood - https://www.youtube.com/annielederman Follow Us: Khalyla Kuhn - https://www.instagram.com/khalamityk Annie Lederman - https://www.instagram.com/annielederman Esther Povitsky - https://www.instagram.com/esthermonster Produced by: 7EQUIS Podcast Producers: Pete Forthun & Carlos Herrera Editor: Bryce Hallock

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offer and your new three-month unlimited wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to mintmobile.com slash Tuesday. That's mintmobile.com slash Tuesday. Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com slash Tuesday. $45 upfront payment required equivalent to $15 a month. New customers on first three month plan only. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply statement mobile for details you should see my underwear collection i've long departed from anything cute it's full on granny 5000s and i am standing by my parachute panties for the rest of my life i think a baggy panty there's something sexy about that we're not baggy esther just just you know fully support full support highways full butt cup yeah full butt covering okay i like that i like to buy my panties like a few sizes too big just to be different just if they might slide down in your pants so they get lost hanging by the car yeah no there's something cute about that aesthetic yeah i think you like the the um aesthetic of diapers right that's your

vibe i like the boy underwear like like boxer shorty not box those are brief if it doesn't have a cotton gusset i'm out yeah because then it's like he's put that on my tombstone guess what does have a cotton gusset all of sk Skim's everything. I know. You know, this is how I know Kim K has the beasties often. She understands the importance of a cotton gusset. Yeah. Katie, thank you for being here. Of course. I think you're amazing.

And your videos have, on many occasions, helped me not unalive myself. Oh, yeah. So much, so soon. But my first question to you is little Esther over there has a fascination for being in diapers. And I, I, again, too much to say.

Put that on your tombstone. And I want to get to the bottom of why she likes to be. So you invite the therapist on to just fully break me down and figure things out. I have way more questions than just the diapers. Diapers is pretty simple. I mean, can be. Any abuse? No.

Well, I don't actually like diapers you like to have people wear them or you like to wear them i like i definitely am stuck in childhood in a lot of ways i think that's more what the situation is when she says diapers right is that what you mean or well no i think that you what was the threat the last time that you just wanted to be in diapers and not have to go to the restroom for a couple of days? A couple of days. What was it, Esther? I feel like. Early bloodbath episodes.

I, look, I've evolved a lot in the last two years. So I would say that I'm not necessarily looking to be in diapers right now. I think next question. Hi, Sluggies. I'm so happy we have such an amazing show today. It's very fun. You can catch me on my solo podcast called Annie Wood. It's on YouTube every Thursday.

I live stream chat with everyone on the YouTube. So if you go to that when it premieres at noon Eastern or nine Pacific, you can chat with me and I'll see it with the first for the first time with you. I also am on the road and I love meeting you guys more than almost doing the stand up to be honest. I love it so much. You can see me in Dania Beach, Florida this weekend, February 3rd and 4th or next weekend. Um, Washington DC, February 24th and 25th, Seattle, Washington, March 10th and 11th, Tampa, Florida, March 17th and 18th. I'll then be in Toronto, Riley, Raleigh, Raleigh, sorry, Raleigh, North Carolina, Salt Lake city, and a bunch of other dates.

Go to Annie Letterman dot com slash shows. Come meet me. It's the best. Miami. Get tickets. We're doing stand up. EstherOnIce.com. I will see you soon.

You like to be taken care of? I love to be taken care of. That's what I was going to say. It's almost like the emotional neglect of childhood like bleeds into adulthood so you might go out looking for guys girls people to like take care of you definitely um yes i'm realizing that i think i was emotionally neglected because i always say that like my parents kept me safe but like that was it yeah like and i love them and we're super close now but um we why is it like starting out with my like this trauma but no i think like another thing that i've realized because i i host a solo podcast and my like ethos for that is it's for people who spent the best years of their lives alone in their room.

And like that's me. Like I feel like and that's why I'm a creative person is because so much of my life I was just like by myself in my room with my Lion King figurines and like my stuffed animals. And then it became my Britneyney spears posters and the muse and my cds so i don't know i don't know that i view it as a bad thing because it's like yes the other thing though is like then i see how adults interact with children and i'm like whoa this is so different like oh then the way you were raised yeah it's like they're included in conversations and like also the first time i went out to dinner with my fiance and his parents he's like a funny guy and he was just kind of just being himself and his parents kept laughing at the things he said and i will never forget the way i felt i was like i didn't know it was physically possible for

parents to find their child funny. That was like a full, I was like, that's not like literally physically impossible because you're just their kid. Oh, that you would think that you were so much less. Yes. Was it kind of like the, the like be seen, not heard type of generation or thing? It wasn't like that because I definitely am not shy or like, I don't hide, but it was more just like exist over there and do whatever you want yeah just don't bother us yeah so you didn't like get to participate with your parents not really another thing while we're here is these are just like the okay another thing is i saw a commercial once for family game night it was like a hasbro commercial and i was like

what there's a thing called family game night and i was like i felt so much fomo i was really upset are you an only child i'm a half only child i have a half older so that doesn't really count you didn't like grow up together no i'm just saying like you didn't have a sibling that like you she was there but seven years older and wanted nothing to do with me wouldn't let me in her room so that i couldn't go in her bed because i would get my dead skin cells on it i have been very is she like a germaphobe no and then even my sister i'll see her kiss her children and I'm like, you allow their germs? I get like, Esther, let me hold you. Hence why she wants to be taken care of. Yeah, you know what? I will change your nappies all day long. That is

a vow. Thank you. That's why I'm so drawn to you because I do think you have like your mothering. Caregiver. Hence the dog rescue. Yeah, look, any time of the day. Yeah, any time of the day. Yeah. Any time of the day you need your nappies changed, I'm there.

Thank you. That is a friendship vow. Thank you. Wow. Yeah. I feel very vulnerable right now, but I also like it. Of course. And then you get a little attention too. Yeah.

Yeah. People act like attention is a bad thing, but we all need it. It's not bad. Yeah. It's just you didn't get enough at all as a kid so you probably need more now as an adult so now i'm sick now i'm unwell and i host this podcast you're not unwell thank you you're just doing your best with what you got yeah that's what we all do i think i'm on the extreme end of that where it's like helicopter tiger mom parent

just like i didn't have any freedoms to do anything i couldn't take a nap like everything was dictated where it was just always in my shit the way what i ate for breakfast everything down to like the last morsel like everything was just so controlled, but then still very emotionally neglected. So it's like same, same kind of. Yeah, just different versions, like more like physical neglect. And then people don't realize how abusive or toxic helicopter parenting can be too, because people are like swing from extreme. And I'm like, actually be in the middle, like kids need independence.

Otherwise, then we try to control things on our own. Eating disorders, self-injury, you know, things like that, because you don't feel like you have any control whereas esther was like nobody cares i just do whatever yeah and that feels unsafe also i think also part of it was my mom is finnish and i just that culture like they're quiet and they're just kind of like so i feel like i was able to just do anything and my it was just my mom was just, well, here's your cereal that you asked for. And I don't know. It's whatever.

But your thing of like someone giving you these rules to follow and live by, I'm almost like, oh, my God, I would have loved that structure and discipline, even though I don't think that's true. But there's like a voice inside of me that's like, oh, I want that. don't think that's true but there's like a voice inside of me that's like oh i want that in fact when the show alone together when it got picked up someone was like what if the network asked you to lose weight or like control your body and i remember my first interaction was like i would love a corporation to tell me what to do i was like i would feel so valued if someone gave me a specific assignment like that. Because you'd feel seen.

Yes. And I would feel useful and loved. Overseen is a thing too. I was spoon fed until I was 13. I was not allowed to hold my own utensils. That's really crazy. Is that true? It is true.

You call my mom because she had to ration out our food because I was the prize goat in the family. I was part of the swim team since I was like a really, really young kid. And I brought in money. So my sister and I, well, more so me. But I was not allowed to hold my own utensils because I was not. She didn't trust me to finish the food on my plate, which was usually a mound of pork chop. And then eggs. And then rice.

And then six tomatoes. And then a big glass of milk. And I'm like, my 10-year-old body cannot consume all of this. of pork chop and then eggs and then rice and then six tomatoes and then a big glass of milk and i'm like my 10 year old body cannot consume all of this and if i would vomit it out another plate on the table what yeah she would control the calories she was also a competitive bodybuilder so like that yeah like put onto you yeah so are you sure about the corporation right no that you're explaining is really serious like that is very severe yeah well katie knows she knows a lot about my my trauma because we've talked about it um i didn't realize that though i mean eating disorder stuff makes sense then

yeah i have um problem i yeah the eating disorder in my early 20s was mostly just trying to, I just was kind of rendered useless, right? I didn't know how to do anything for myself. Or even given the opportunity to try. Yeah. Because kids need to try. Like, we need to try to do things on our own. And fail or not, we have to learn, right? That's like growth. That's how you become a human an adult right and the overwhelming feeling that i got most of my childhood was i cannot wait to have autonomy so i can take a nap all i wanted was to take a nap like to just be like oh i want to fall asleep whenever i want to fall asleep wake up whenever i want to wake up and that was the dream for me as a child wow so how come you couldn't it wouldn't let you nap? Because you were arguably

like working harder because you were probably practicing all the time. This is what I wanted to ask you. Is there, does trauma just like, if it's something where a child is just overworked,

like I feel like I don't want to do, my bandwidth is very low as an adult. Like I can do one thing a day and then I'm exhausted. I mean, there's a lot of reasons. First of all, have you gone to the doctor recently?

Because vitamin D, if that's low. Yeah. So I've checked all of that. I'm kind of slightly, maybe slightly anemic. Energy also. Right. Thyroid levels are good. Everything else is good.

And I just feel like, do you ever just feel like okay one thing that's enough like that was my big productive thing and then i'm done i do i know what you mean but when i think back to myself feeling that way it's because something was wrong and it's like whether it's like, whether it's like, for me, it's usually like physical energy or the way I'm eating. And or like, you also recently went through a big breakup. I feel like that could be having profound effects on your life in ways that you maybe don't even have a clue, right? I have clues. Okay. Big clues. big clues yeah yeah yeah their energy sucks especially when we put ourselves out there whether that's online or in performance or whatever because then what what i find even personally being online for like 10 years is like the amount of feedback

you receive from people that you don't care about right i don't know them they don't know me but you know it's not normal for us to receive that much. What happens to people? Like, okay, what happens to me and Esther and Annie to receive like a constant barrage of that kind of feedback? It's unsolicited. Some of it we appreciate, of course, because this is the bed we made and we understand that, you know, it comes with a territory that people are going to remark on your character who they think you are blah blah blah um but what happens is are like are there studies done to kind of um figure out in the long run what happens to this new wave of of us i even want to interrupt you and say that it's not esther annie klyla it's every single everybody including katie yes everyone who makes a tiktok every tiktoker i follow and eventually on my for you page there's

a video of them being like i'm everyone hates me like yeah everyone in today i follow a farmer because i love animals and mommy farmer my favorite on tiktok and she wakes them up every morning and feeds them and she was crying once on tiktok and she wakes them up every morning and feeds them and she was crying once on tiktok because she was receiving so much hate and i was like who the fuck hates mommy farmer like she literally does not but everybody gets it like it and i i don't know i mean there is current research about the effects of social media on us as a whole but i don't think it's from the perspective of us people who put it out there i think it's from the perspective of kids growing up with it right does that make sense yeah because i mean there there is even a huge difference between some like a musician and an actor because the

feedback is going to be about their craft not who they are not their character but when we podcast and we share a little bit about our life, the people we love, the animals, everything about it, it feels very personal. And there is like a parasocial nature about podcasting where people feel not only entitled to kind of like owning a piece of you, but my voice is in their ear, has been in their ear for the past 10 years.

So there is kind of this weird like possessive nature about the type of um fan that they are or feeling like they they know you more than they do right i mean like i think people do think because if they've been listening to you for 10 years they feel like they know more about you than they probably do because of that, like that parasocial. It's almost I don't know how to explain it. It's almost like because you share a little, they can extrapolate and then they think they have the full story or they think they really know about your relationship. But nobody really knows except for you and the person in the relationship. Like even when my best friends go through divorces or breakups, I don't really know what it was like for them.

Right. And I'm with them, you know, like supporting, but I'm not in the relationship. Right. And also like I can sit here and speculate what's going on between Britney Spears and Madonna. And like I have all my ideas, but even just through knowing how little people really know about our truths, it's like I don't know anything about Britney Spears and Madonna. But I think I do. And I won't stop thinking that i do but i don't are you but you're not trolling either no that's different totally but i'm i always lately i really try this is so weird but i try to relate to the trolls i try to put myself in their shoes because I'm always I'm trying to figure it out.

And it has helped me because I put myself in the shoes of like, what would make me comment this on someone's video? And it's like this would that would be sad. It would be really sad if I was doing that. And I can picture the place in my life. And that has helped me a little bit. Well, yeah, it never comes out of like love or joy or excitement for life. A troll comment comes out of like, I don't feel good about who I am. Because think about how much pain or upset or frustration you must feel for it to spew out to others. Like I remember I had this like horribly shitty time in my life when, long story short,

I went to Pepperdine, paid for my own school. And my mom's family had money. And her dad was like, I'll loan you, not give it, loan you with interest to help pay for your school. Because I only got like half of it through scholarship. So it was like $16,000 a year. With interest? So generous. Anyway, RIP grandpa. um anyway he offered to like pay and then my second year he got a little like senile and like three weeks before school was supposed to start he's like i'm not paying for it anymore oh my god i had to withdraw and so i went in this and i went to community college to keep up with my units but like fuck me like i was so like you know like what am i doing i don't know where am i going you know just like life and upheaval. And I was like 19 and it was like the darkest, shittiest time in my life.

And I feel like that's where those people have to be. Like where they don't even know what they're doing. They don't even know who they are. They're like in this deep. Then even then, I don't think I would leave a comment because I just feel so bad about like hurting someone, even though I was hurting. Do you know what I mean? I just don't think I have it in me. But I think that whenever I think of like where would they have to be in their life, that's where like. Yeah. And back to your question, which maybe this is what you were angling for because it's what I would want to know is like what is this doing to us? What do we do?

And this is kind of it's for everyone who exists online. to us what do we do and this is kind of it's for everyone who exists online like do you have advice on how to cope with the constant influx of negativity but then positivity and also I love doing this because it's how I express myself and it's how I connect to others and relate to others and I know it's it's hard best advice I mean I'll speak personally like as a creator and then i'll talk more like therapisty um but as a creator i think the best thing i've done is create safe spaces which it sounds bad to say this but like a paywall like i'm on patreon a lot and that has like saved me because for people to put money up they're not they're not gonna shit talk you like i've never gotten hate from anybody on patreon those are my people that's my community it's like a safe space so that's great and i've always loved that um if our co-hosts

were here she would interject that in covid i had a patreon and i only charged one dollar that's fine and it was literally she would always make fun of me like that's your self-worth which is funny but my reasoning was just i just want people to like put a credit card down and have so that it's safe they have some skin in the game yeah it takes a lot to get a credit card you also can't be like 12 years old yeah talking shit on the internet mom i want the debit card yeah you can't so it's a little safety like a dollar five dollars just a yeah entry that say that makes it better um but also limiting what you read like i mean i there's two veins i've seen happen so i was uh on the call her daddy podcast and alex has like gets the she just turns off all her comments i don't know if you've noticed

like on all our instagram stuff because you don't have to. And Taylor Swift does the same. I'm not saying that I'm Taylor Swift, but I'm just saying that like you don't have to allow people to. No one says we have to. Or you just let it ride and you don't read anything, which is more what I do. Just let things ride. You know, I also like on YouTube, you could hold words and stuff so that because I don't want anybody in my community to be told, just go kill yourself. You know, because it doesn't mean it's not always just towards me. It can be amongst themselves where they like fight. And I'm like, don't fight on my behalf and don't, you know. That must be a different kind of pressure to you to be a therapist publicly and online. Like, is there weird beef in the therapy community?

in the therapy community? I mean, not amongst therapists, as far as I know, it is a weird, because therapy is like an art, which I know people probably wouldn't agree or think of it that way, but like- Oh, it absolutely is. Everything is an art. We're creating something. And as a therapist, you have to like, figure out where your patient is. You have to meet them there. And then you have to help guide them out to a better place, right? So like every person is a little different. The questions you're going to ask is a little different and you're trying to work with them so they feel comfortable, right? So it's like this weird dance that you do. And so of course, not everybody's going to like me. First of all, I don't have the experience a lot of people are going to want. Like I don't maybe don't look the

way people want me to look. Like I remember I posted a video of me getting a tattoo and people were like, therapists don't have tattoos. I i was like then don't see one who does you know like you want a concept i know oh my god so people have opinions about everything but yeah they have a lot of judgments around like what well i would have done this i'm like good fucking go to school and get your license then you know like good for you i don't know so the feedback is hard, but I just limit my digestion of it. And then as a therapist, I've always told my patients like, pay attention to who you follow and what you follow online, like what you allow yourself to read. And if you feel worse after, don't follow those people. And if they're friends and you're like, oh, they're gonna be offended,

then mute them. Like, and like mute with love. It's not because we don't like them. It's like, I always tell people it's not about them. It actually about me it's like i can't watch your content or see you doing these things and not feel like feel upset either about my life my relationships where i'm at what i'm doing so i'm not gonna watch it like it anything i saw this thing recently where i think it was actually the founder of Liquid Death was on a podcast and he talked about like, which is very, everyone knows this, but it's like if you make a product or you are a thing or a podcast or whatever and people love it, if people love it, there will also be people who hate it and there's no escaping it. And that I find to be very freeing. It all like there's so many things like this, like in marketing, they say or advertising. There's like this famous saying, I can't tell you how to have success, but I can tell you how to fail. Try to please everyone. Oh, 100 percent.

You can't please everyone. And so I have found solace in these concepts of like, great, I'm people are going to hate me no matter what. So I'm just going to like be so, so true to who I am so that the right people come and the wrong people will still come. But I will at least know that I'm myself. I don't know. Does that resonate or help you? I'm curious. Yeah. But it's a little bit harder for me to get there because I'm definitely codependent and I've spent my whole life chasing the affection of my mom or validation or praise or, and I love you or a good job. So like, I find that I seek that also in like other people a lot. So like when I put something out and people are like,

that's you're ignorant and you're dumb and you're a dumb gold digger. It's like, wow, I couldn't please Jack from Missouri. Like I must like be really a terrible person. This is in the beginning. But now I'm finally getting to the place of believing that thing you said. I had, I don't know if this is this resonates with you guys but

recently i had like this epiphany where i i'm like a soft person definitely a people pleaser and that's like my own therapeutic work this therapist should be in therapy you know we don't we can't fix ourselves it's not like giving myself a haircut um that'd be awesome if i could but i can't um anyway there are people that do and i see them i'm like how i know they do the ponytail thing i can't even wax my own eyebrow that's a disaster you know like i just pay the people to do the things they know how to do i'm not that person i tried giving myself bangs in college and my mom wouldn't speak to me for six months i gave myself a mullet i have an unhealthy obsession with watching people cut their hair on tiktok because you know it's gonna be bad

they like pull it so straight and i'm like oh honey it's like this is the length i wanted i'm like it's gonna bounce up it's not even dry that shit's wet it's gonna be that you know you're like you just watch it and wait um but you were saying you were anyways yeah so i'm definitely like a softer people pleasey type person yeah and i realized being online it made me like incredibly hard and i didn't like that about myself and i can relate to that because i liked that i was like soft and i'm a feeler and i can like sense things and that i thought that made me hi annie hi hello hello oh my goodness right up hi nice to meet you hey annie you're fine are those gifts I mean kind of

I throw my stuff in there but I wanted you guys to try these chips oh yeah I eat those all the time chicken and waffles the buffalo one are you vegetarian and then no judgment for vegetarian I was like I eat everything they're made with

it's mostly protein chips but with a little bit of tapioca yeah yeah it's delicious not right now but I will definitely later you'd love a master because they're just

protein chips no I know I've been wanting to try those Caroline is obsessed with them but I'm not a waffle as a flavor it's so it's like the weirdest

it's probably just like sweetness will this help you Whitney told me about that I do love chicken wait I want to you were saying that you're soft but it's made you It's like the weirdest. It's probably just like sweetness. Will this help you? Whitney told me about that. I do love chicken. Wait, I want to, you were saying that you're soft, but it's made you. Like thinking my skin made me hard. And I realized that I didn't like that.

Like I didn't like what being online for 10 years had done to me. Like, cause I was kind of like, I was more protective and I like wouldn't read things. And then if anybody was even going to give me constructive feedback, I'd be like, fuck you. Because I was just like, I'm out, I'm all feedbacked up. Thanks, got way too much feedback. And so it was like a couple months ago, I was like, you know what, I'm gonna let myself like just be. And if I wanna cry about something, I'm gonna cry about. If I wanna feel, I'm gonna feel.

Still working at it, because it feels to be vulnerable online, I hate, because I don't like that people can get at me, you know, but but I realized I didn't want to lose that part of myself. It wasn't worth that cost. I can really relate to that. Yeah. I think of all the things I can relate to that the most because I do think I'm a softie. And just having done this for so long, you cannot help but put your be prickly and your

you know your defenses up and even to people who are being perfectly nice to you you're always like oh like what is that what do you say what do they want you what do you want yeah well it's hard to with like are we talking about comments yeah just in general because you just don't know like who a comment is so there's so little information behind the person who's giving you the comments you know especially on youtube it's like you can't really like if you click on them you don't get it's not like there's like a bio that really tells you much about them for the most part it's like so it's like i don't even know what you're coming from yeah but we were asking katie earlier like what happens like what is the long-term effects of being

exposed to um the public in this way and in a very like parasocial way yeah where people aren't attacking your craft they're attacking you who they think you are yeah yeah that was making that realization as to like how unusual it is that the amount of access we have to random videos of mass shooting news and comments of people saying they hate you. That was a big driving force and why I started taking Lexapro because I was like, wait, I know for a fact that I have not my humanness is not evolved to handle the shit. And so I'm just, I'm curious, like being aware of that, do you have any tools or helpful thoughts on like how to cope while we deal with these things that were very much not evolved to deal with? Yeah. I mean, there's a ton of things we can do and you're right. Like we shouldn't be this connected to trauma trauma right like shared

trauma like it's so easy i remember i forget when this was it was like a few years ago where like a girl was like drunk driving with her little sister in the car and they got in this horrible accident her sister died and you're like watching she was live streaming it and i was like what the actual fuck is happening oh like last week that guy was on facebook live when the nepalese plane went down yeah and killed 72 people and he was like look we're about to land and then boom i see the flames and i'm like i did not want to watch that video um it was just on the news there wasn't like a warning for anything i was like oh i just saw someone just go up in flames yeah i've seen like lifely people's bodies on the internet yeah and i'm like i just saw your solely right i'm like i'm not an emt for a reason like i can't tolerate crazy it's too much i like

your little wednesday adam arms thank you yeah um yeah how yeah it's weird anyway yeah no you're fine um but to that point like because we're so it's so accessible like i don't want to see life leave people's bodies like um the best thing we can do is limit exposure so i know it sucks to feel like you're not informed but like sometimes being informed just means like traumatized maybe i won't be informed so there's that and then also weird things you can do that like reset your nervous system so you know you can feel like tingles in your fingers when you're like stressed or like tense, or like your breathing is shallow, like stomp your feet a little, shake your hands out. It like triggers your nervous system to release that pent up energy. Cause the way our bodies are like, not to get too nerdy, but the way that they're built is our nervous system is made to look in our environment for

threat. And then if it sees a threat, it's like, okay, do I fight, flight, you know, freeze, fall? Like, what do I do? How do I manage this? But if we're threatened and there's no way we can't do anything with it, this threat is like our world. Then we freeze and all that energy just courses through, which feels like anxiety. It can feel like that, like I can't catch my breath, you know? I don't know how to turn my fucking watch off.

I don't understand my Apple Watch either and I hate it. What is it? There's one button. I hate it. How is there one fucking button for the fucking thing? Mine goes off all the time. And then like another thing shows up. I'm like, that's not what, oh, now I need a passcode.

It's been on my fucking wrist the whole time. Okay, I don't have my passcode. Okay, I don't know what my passcode is. Carlos, fix it. Mine buzzed me at five in the morning it's like you need to get up i was like you need to shut the fuck up you need to go back to analog baby i love your watch thank you the thing about all of this like that were these like you know that we haven't gotten the upgrade yet from our like prehistoric days when we were cavemen

is so funny because of all i know that it's like when you're having like social anxiety is from when you were like because if you got excommunicated your life was in danger right if you got excommunicated from your tribe back in the day but it's just funny that you can go into fight or flight if someone like calls you a fat bitch online like when are we gonna up i'm ready for the upgrade right like they're gonna excommunicate me i can't be i'm about to die i'm about to freeze in the snow because I have no body heat. I have no one to spoon now. No one to help me forage.

I'm like, come on, I'm a fat bitch. Don't you want to hug me in the snow? I think it is so funny, like perceived threats. Like even in the form of words, I'm like, this is really going to dictate my day. I'm just going to be like sweating in a corner at home, like caring so much. It's really quite pathetic if I were to just zoom out a bit and be like, oh, look at Kalilah over there. Well, also like as a comedian,

like I started my first sort of exposure to an audience was with Opie and Anthony, the like shock jock. So all my first fans were people that were just like thought that the way to show love was to just completely roast you. So people were like, look at those bug bites. It was always about how small my fist was. And then I would be self-deprecating. And then they would do it back.

It was just like crazy. I'm like, oh my God. And then I gained weight and now they're bigger. So don't say that. Joke's on you. Sorry. After years of fine print contracts and getting ripped off by overpriced wireless providers,

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go to mintmobile.com slash Tuesday. That's mintmobile.com slash tuesday that's mint mobile.com slash tuesday cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mint mobile.com slash tuesday 45 upfront payment required equivalent to 15 a month new customers on first three month plan only speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan additional taxes fees and restrictions apply statement mobile for details i have a question is it possible that a person maybe me i'm exploring this theory is it possible that i could have maybe been living the past 10 15 years in a state of PTSD? Yes. Like in freeze or in like. I don't know. Well, she thinks she's a dog.

Tell her about Jacob. Annie, don't go hard. We talked, we went over her diaper use. She's like, we're going, this is too much, too fast. I'm just curious. Like, is that even. That was episode one too, by the way. The diaper or Esther is a dog.

I think dog was like 10th episode. When I was little, I wanted to be a dog. And I mean, call me Jacob. And I only ate out of bowls off the floor. It was because I met a dog named Jacob who I was really drawn to and wanted to become him. Did you have a chat and you guys shook hands and stuff? And he was like, nice to meet you. How long did that last?

Just like a week? She's taking it seriously. Not that long. She still sleeps in a crate. I don't know. That therapist voice. She's crate trained. She's crate trained.

She was really cool too. She was like a cool kid. That picture of you when you're little is so funny. Which one? There's one you posted that is just like, you're obviously like in charge. Everyone's like around you. It's a cool picture, but it's really just a picture of esther with other classmates near her wait was that the jacob era no that was probably a little after jacob i'm thinking i can't tell it could have been like

kindergarten or 10th grade just with the way you have aged but like i i don't this was just a random theory that popped up in my head because I basically like I'm trying to really figure shit out and like upgrade my brain software. And I'm like, oh, is getting dumped in high school was that – did that like make me have really severe anxious attachment that then like I've had for the last 15 years? I mean, it could have triggered it. I think it's probably because your parents were emotionally neglectful without realizing it. And like the biting, people don't talk about this enough, but because they're like, oh, kids do that. No, children who are neglected do that. Oh my God. It's not like there's a direct correlation, but whenever I hear someone bit as a child,

it's abuse is like the red flag. Like, cause there's things as a therapist that you're like, oh, that's a little red flag. Like if a child start, starts wetting the bed again after they were potty trained, that's a red flag. In other ways. That's why you need the cotton.

The gusset. The cotton gusset. I need to catch the goop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. The cotton gusset.

Do you guys mind if I just really quickly, I know she's at work, but if I just call my mom and ask her about- Can I fill her in while you're calling on some things? Sure. Esther just wrote, starred, and made a movie about this breakup in high school. She's obsessed with it. Just to be clear, I'm 34. It won't sound like that, but she is.

Where is this bitch? She's neglecting you yeah triggered you had a cage esther had a like breastfeed thing i got you i got you have you know nipples are hard to find they're a little on the pink side but she one of her childhood memories is a like white knuckling the the like child gate like not in memory but i i just my parents have told me that when they would wake up in the morning i would be asleep hanging on to the gate oh what was the funny that they bring it up my parents are like we don't remember that oh they like gaslight you they're like that's not what happened annie you're remembering it wrong we don't go there i'm like oh okay no but i think it's neglect yeah i think and i do think i only bit someone once that's why i want to get the tea from my mom and i just remember she's just the way

she says that she was like really embarrassed and then it never happened again because she's humiliated she was humiliated is that why well it didn't get you what you were wanting probably yeah like children act out in the only ways they can so a lot of it's like relationally like like the biting or like picking fights or being the perfect kid like i was that i was like trying to be like if i'm the best then everybody will like me and it will all be good and like that's super toxic too you know so like it's funny to think that the kid that's getting like straight a's is just as like messed up as a kid who's like the class clown. Yeah.

That is crazy. It's just different way. It's like coping. We're just dealing with like, what tools do we have? Is there a way to not get fucked up by your parents? Is there like a way? Yeah. Like, are we going to be pretty?

Are we going to be terrible parents or impart trauma on our kids as well? That's such a wild question. You know, like probably. I think we all pass on things whether we want to or not. or impart trauma on our kids as well? That's such a wild question. I think we all pass on things whether we want to or not. And like behaviorally, you can pass on like symptoms of trauma because of the way you react to the world, right? I'm going to quickly interrupt because she's calling back. Mom? Yeah?

Hi, I'm recording the podcast. Did I bite other children? Yeah, you did bite one. But what happened? uh yeah you did but what happened um it was at a play group of mom and pops play group and um a little kid i guess came down the slide and you wanted to go up and you bit him in the cheek oh my god the cheek Was that during my Jacob era? Oh yeah, it must have been. Okay.

I love how she just answers this. What else was I doing in the Jacob era? Well, you were biting everyone except me. Interesting. Anything else? No, that's all I remember. Okay. Love you.

Bye. Bye. I love you bye i love you just randomly asking your mom's so nice to just be like no i think this she is the real comedic genius somehow that's what i'm slowly realizing your dad too they're both so funny this weekend dave my fiance we were we were in new york and we were talking talking about September 11th. And Dave was telling my mom how he watched the towers fall from his rooftop. And my mom, he told us his New York 9-11 tale. And he says, we watched it fall. My mom goes, well, I hope you covered your mouth.

Because of the bad air. I'm like, I don't think he did. Like, what the fuck that's a strange response mom yeah you're like wow that must have been hard is a better answer i hope you covered your mouth so rude sorry we interrupted no you're fine but like the biting and stuff it's interesting you didn't bite your mom i wonder if she was the one that you wanted the attention from the most looking at you galila did she use a spray bottle like curb the habit or a thing with like a can with pennies in it

yeah um that is so interesting esther i wish i knew you at this age because i had a pet noodle remember i i didn't go through a jacob era, but I went through a time where I felt so lonely as a child that I tied a string to a chow mein noodle, and I named him Jerry, and he followed me everywhere. I would take him on plane rides because I went to swim meets. Did it rot? I was just going to say, would it break? One day, my sister had enough enough and she just smushed

jerry she was like enough boom it was just a smash noodle and then it could not be tethered to a rope anymore or a string did you get another noodle uh no i was heartbroken jerry and then i and then as an adult um i was gifted not gifted i um rescued um a boa like a and then i named him jerry in honor of my noodle jerry i'm imagining like a feather boa and uh like any real pets if i hadn't met your dogs i would be like i bet this bitch just has stuffed animals i'm like so attracted to you after the noodle story uh and before it you see i did it i brought these are the most comfortable things i've ever had my life get them everybody children get them um platforms yeah she's had them forever i really relate to that and i also remember in middle

school i asked like i like was wondering if you could have a sperm as pets and i like asked that i would ask guys. They're like, no, the sperm's too, it's bigger than you have. You're not going to be able to keep it under control. I really wanted a guy to give me his sperm in a cup so I could see them. How old were you? Middle school. Middle school.

Old or young? No, I'm just surprised that you were so interested in sperm. That is so mean. But did you have the friend? I feel like so interested in sperm that is so mean but did you have the friend i feel like we've talked about this on here but did you ever have the friend that was like really really or were you the girl that was like really obsessed with puberty no it was never me no i had a friend that was like that yeah i was terrified of puberty who was just like all she wanted was the teacher to give us like extra lessons on puberty and growing pubes and boobs and stuff like she was just like couldn't get enough of it.

She loved our bodies ourselves. It was like dog ear at every page. Oh my God. Tabbed, highlighted. She did have lesbian moms, which I wonder if she was like just her parents were like very probably talking to her about a lot of stuff. But I had a lot of friends with lesbians. I was like very confused as a kid or I guess not confused.

I was a lot more or less confused than other people. Quaker school. I recently came across this term. Oh, that's right. I mean, Katie, you quite possibly are amongst the most fucked up seven girls and exist. Oh yeah, I was just the opener. Wait till we get to Annie.

It's like a moose boosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. exist oh yeah i was just the opener wait till wait till you get to annie it's bush yeah yeah yeah this is our charcuterie of of all like i think we cover all the kinds of trauma possible and we're like so not afraid to share we just give it all that's our gift but i like that though because it normalizes the reactions because kids are doing it, whether they want to talk about it or not. And we often do the things like the noodle, you know, or, or like wanting to pretend that you're a dog. Like people are embarrassed to talk about it when you're older. Cause you're like, what the hell?

You know, no one wants to be like, I'm totally fucked up. I mean, now I guess people say it as a joke, but like in a real way of like, how do I, what happened to me? I know it's so weird when you because I feel like with myself I was always like I took on I internalized so much stuff and I took on responsibility for everything that happened to me in my childhood always and then I hit like I think it was like around 32 or something and then all of a sudden I got so mad at everyone else I was like wait a second this was you like not people but like you know the adults in my life and I was like, wait a second. This was you, like, not people, but, like, you know, the adults in my life.

And I was like, what the fuck? And then now I've, like, now I am able to, like, disassociate and look at it from, like, a more, like, relaxed and forgiving, like, a perspective of grace for my parents and for everyone where you can kind of see where they're coming from. But it's, like, been quite a roller coaster. Yeah, and anger is interesting because I went through that phase, i was like angry all the time because i was like what the fuck you know and like rage um but something that i've learned is like and i'm still not totally comfortable with anger it usually comes out that way like we're all like stuff it down and then it's like brah um is that it's just indicative of you being hurt like it's just it's your puffer fish you're sticking your spines out like you said it's the spiny it's just indicative of you being hurt. Like it's just, it's your puffer fish. You're sticking your spines out.

Like you said, it's the spiny. It's that protection. Cause you've, you're like, cause you were upset. Yeah. Like,

what'd you do? Why'd you do this to me? Why'd you say that? What the fuck? I'm lucky. My parents are like, do their own work on themselves and stuff. And they've definitely let me just scream at them a lot.

It was really nice. Thanks guys. My bad. No, it's helpful when your parents do their own work. My mom is in therapy too. And my dad died when I was like 24. But it's been really helpful that she has her own insight, you know, because she'll come out of the blue and she'll be like, I'm so sorry that I didn't say that to you or that I did this or that I didn't divorce your dad early. You know, like all the things that she's like, I should have done it differently. Yeah, it's so impactful to even hear your parents in even in my mom, there's a language barrier, English is not her first language. So it's tough for her, like to kind of express herself as clearly or as fast as me.

kind of express herself as clearly or as fast as me um but she sent my sister and i a tiktok of a clip of jane fonda in an interview saying it's not that i didn't want to be a good mom it's that i didn't know how and that was her way of saying hey this is what i'm saying but she said it like whatever jane fonda says and by the way my mom made us do jane fonda workout since i was like six years old like she um so i thought that was like i remember looking at my sister and we both just started crying like did you get the text i'm like i did the jane fonda one i did and i didn't know how to like react to it because i was like really one of the few times where there was like acknowledgement of saying okay like, like I might've fucked you up. But it meant so much. And if our parents just knew how much it means.

Tiny little thing, like these little, my mom, I remember she sent me a card when I was living, when I first moved back to LA. I don't know how long ago it was, like 2016 or something. And she sent me a card that said, like, love you, my sweet sweet girl and just her calling me sweet because I had had such a like a story about myself that I was bad you know like that was like my core belief was that I was bad and then I was like oh just that like little thing I just felt

so lucky that she said that and it's like it's something where I've done a lot of work and like learned a lot of tools to be able to do that on my own without other people which is great but it's such a nice little like cherry on top to have the person who like gave you the core wound give you that little relief you know totally what i sorry i was just what i love i love hearing these things and like that's so cool that just her saying that simple just like a littlest thing it like affected you and what i love too about your mom sending you a Jane Fonda video is like she didn't your mom didn't have to it's really hard to put things in our own words sometimes and I always think of like my mom always buys greeting cards and I'm like that's actually so wonderful that people can express themselves using other people's work and

art like I think that that's's an underutilized tool in personal relationships. I'm inspired to use that. That's why homework will never go out of business. My mom and my stepdad, they will spend two hours looking for the right card for the right words because they don't have it. And then my mom will always just sign mountains of love mama but when i i read someone else's words so closely it's never just a card and i can never read it in front of her around people when i receive my birthday gift because i know it's gonna bring

out a lot of like deep emotions so i'm always i always go to the room after after everyone's left and i read it and i always have like some type of meltdown over it because i know that they were on that aisle for two hours looking for you know words that match their feelings totally and i think there was a time in my life where i would like write that off and be like these are someone else's words but now i'm like no i know that that's a form of expression like and it's yeah there's there is real value there that i respect and appreciate go hallmark i love a greeting card poetry yeah i guess i i kind of like i'm like thanks for the card guys you know but it is it is nice but the sweet girl would get you that was yeah that was good and then

i was able to really like shift my own beliefs on myself it was it was really cool yeah it's cool that you did that like that inner child work stuff where you like give it to yourself which i know it sucks and it's never as good to be like oh but i'm doing it for me because but then when your mom gave you that little bit it was just a little like it's like a sweetener yeah because that's really where you want to get it from but from the therapeutic side it's like we can't control other people yeah and then they could wound you more yeah when you're like yeah i came up with like the best thing to do i don't know if i've talked about on here before but the best thing to do when i'm going through a breakup and i'm

really missing that person i always text myself the things that i would text them like i'll go like i miss you i love you like yes annie i love that oh my god so yeah when i've had to go no contact with people because i know that's what's best for me, but I am physically unable to at times because I'm always like still, I want to know that they're thinking about me. I do the same. So I open up my thinking about you i want to fucking hurt myself when like i just everything is on there and it just releases the pressure just a little bit yeah i love that yeah because it's a safe space yeah a little like breakup trick it is to drive by their house and write and make a movie about it for 30 years yeah can we talk about that with katie we can yes um is like i would i'd listen to like love happy songs and i always think of like talking to me yeah like my high school breakup the one song we were like did a dance to it in my dance school whatever and it was lovely day by bill withers and the

lyrics like just one look at you and i and i would like really be like these songs are about me maybe Alicia Keys no one I always like sing that to myself when I was like a drunk like bartender and go-go dancer in Santa Fe New Mexico and I'd like such bad self-esteem I would like listen to that song and just ride my motor scooter around and just make it like I was singing to myself yeah like you're a badass yeah the hair the wind flowing through your hair tits out gravel in my tits missing nipple that i lost on a sidewalk annie and i really bonded over that early on like we both had nipple trauma um her from a scooter and mine from a skateboard yeah but just you know mine from mine from a scooter and yours from a skater you just spit it right off

i don't know why you're trying to skate and suck my teeth at the same time Mine from a scooter and yours from a skater. You just spit it right off. You just spit it right off. I don't know why you're trying to skate and suck my dick at the same time. But Esther, let's walk down memory lane and talk about. Let's drive by memory lane. Well, yes. So I think though, like you're, she's katie is pointing me in the direction that like it's not about the breakup it's about not how i was raised but it is true that i have this like this very traumatic high school breakup right where like this person was my whole world

like i had a crush on him for years before we started dating and it like everything just worked out really magically in this high school relationship. And then it, you know, it ended abruptly and I was so just like in shock and all the things that happen when you get dumped. And, um, and then we essentially like never spoke again. And I always think that like that's why i have this anxious attachment where i'm like i think that everyone's gonna leave me and then never talk to me again and i think it's because like oh i'm so annoying and like unlovable and then there's there's like a couple things at play right like there's that and yes i do drive by his house sometimes. But I also believe, I really do believe.

Do you park? No, I, no. Sometimes like my- Do you beep? Sometimes if my dad's with us, my dad will be like, he'll like pretend like he's about to get out of the car and say something. Like, no, no, no.

Like it has to be very incognito. Oh, my dad would do that shit too. Yeah. He would hold you like hostage. But still presently you still drive by, right? I haven't lately, but I, so on the other side of it i do feel genuinely like part of it is a nostalgia thing like i i really do and there's probably another mental illness version but i love the past i love revisiting the past i love learning about just myself through my past like i'm really i'm really committed to like i feel like i'm donating

my life to art and science this year it's like i'm gonna be honest and vulnerable like let's figure this shit out use me instead of my organs like use my mind like let's figure this out and um so yes i do feel like there's a nostalgia there too so i that gives i'm like giving myself a little credit there where i'm like it's not just that i'm obsessed with this guy and i know it's not about the guy anyway klyla that's there you go i mean it's not it's not that it's not about the guy it is cute i mean first loves are interesting i assume he's your first love yeah totally because we've never experienced something like that before and so when we come out of our family especially if there was emotional neglect so we didn't really feel like our needs were being met and we find a person who will.

And you're like, praise be to whoever. I don't have to go searching anymore. I don't feel so alone anymore. I have this other person. And so that I call it like the mom or dad wound. You like took this guy and you put him in that wound and you were like, we're all good now. Like all that work Annie's doing, you were like, I'm just going to put this person in it to fill it.

Wait, that also makes so much sense too. Because so when my parents would very rarely go out and when they did, like my sister would just be the babysitter. And obviously she'd just be alone in her room and like never interact with me. But there's one time where I had a babysitter. And to this day, I remember literally every minute of that night, I remember her name. I remember like I had one caramel apple and I was like, I want you to have it. And like, I remember I wanted it so bad. Like I got it from school and I just, I wanted her to have it. I wanted to watch her eat it. And like, she played with me and like, it was just this

most amazing night I've ever had. And I still think about it. And it's like aligning up with that. It was like, oh, she was meeting my needs. She was mothering you in the way you needed. Did she end up being allergic to apples and she died? Fucking killed her? No, but it's really sad. I never. That would be on brand for our story, not hers.

No, I literally never saw her again. It was like a one night. A one and done, yeah. Yeah. Oh, it was your one night stand? Yeah. Your emotional moment at night stand yeah oh my god that makes so much sense but he was yeah so he was around for much longer more than one night so imagine the power of that and then the fact that it was taken from you the reactive

attachment type thing always stems from attachment is our first year of life so like yes it can change and we can work on it we can heal to become to have secure attachment but your attachments formed from birth to one year oh shit that's early yeah wait how is that even possible it's like everything gets soaked because when you cry they come to take care of you when you are hungry. They feed you when you need to be changed. Like think of like. But I can't imagine any world where I might like my mom was such a caregiver. Like I know that she took good care of me. But emotionally is different.

But even in the first year. They might have let you cry it out. Yeah. Like fervorizing and stuff. I'm not saying that's wrong. But for certain children, it doesn't do well. Like because if you needed more. If you were at the thing, cry it out. Yeah. Like, fervorizing and stuff. I'm not saying that's wrong, but for certain children, it doesn't do well. Like, because if you needed more. If you were at the thing, you were crying.

Yeah. But that's not one year old. That's, like, seven. But maybe you were, like, that. But if that's probably a reflection of. Seven. Oh, my God. That could probably.

Holy shit. Seven? Oh, my God, bitch. It's all time. Oh, my God. I thought you were a toddler. Oh, my goodness. Once I was babysitting this kid. She's, like Oh my goodness. Once I was babysitting this kid.

She's like a teenager. This is what I feel like I just did to you and I'm sorry. I was babysitting this kid in Santa Fe when I used to live there and he was seven. He was in first grade and he had gone to the bathroom. His mom had left and he went to the bathroom. He goes, I'm done. And I went, okay, cool. And he's like, no, I pooped.

And I go, okay. And he goes, I'm done. You have to wipe me. i'm like wipe i remember going wipe you you're in fucking first grade i didn't curse anything but i was like what and i just went oh i must have traumatized this kid i was like are his fucking teachers wiping his ass i'm like oh my god what's your mom done to you all the children that were babysat by ann need to come forward. Once no longer with us. Call this number. Yeah, no, I am still friends with one of the kids I babysat for. She's so cute.

She just got married. Isn't it crazy? The kids I used to babysit are in college and I like see them on Instagram sometimes. I'm like, oh my God. I forget how old I am. Wait, I'm so unlocked right now. I know.

This is good. because i've been trying to put these pieces together on my own like recently and you're this is great but i just am shocked by zero to one because i mean it continues to form but that that initial attachment and then to like what is it seven when your subconscious stops forming or whatever yeah and then i mean and then all the way to 18 to when your prefrontal cortex is fully. None of this is my fault. Wait. Can we?

Duh. The seven now is. I mean, what you do now. This is really your fault. But what was I going to say to you? Oh, didn't I tell you that I did like rebirthing stuff in my breathwork thing? I went to Costa Rica and did a whole breathwork thing. But we did like a rebirthing thing in a in a hot spring okay it was so cool but i realized like all

of these things from my birth like these really like specific things that happened when i was little and how much they have impacted my life so i was born breached did i do this on the did i talk about this a little bit okay the breach thing but you unbreached yourself right in the river i flipped my ass around my memory i went i'm just gonna flip myself around i just decided like this isn't a problem i just was like i'm gonna just decide there's no problems but why why was being briefed that was affecting i was in a yeah so i was so i have a twin brother so my twin brother was born and so i was with him in the womb for nine months. And then he was gone. And then for six minutes, I was being born.

I came up breech. I ingested the pussy juice. Is that the? Yes, the PJ. And so then I was in an incubator for seven days. So then I went from like being so close with my brother and my mom to being completely by myself so and then being really like and then I just realized there was a lot of like I had like held on to a lot of trauma because my mom didn't want twins because her mom was sick it

was just like a like to my mom it felt like a really bad time to have twins and they would always tell the story about in when they got the ultrasound how my dad was so excited about twins and my mom started crying and so I internalized that and then my my grandmother passed away my mom was pregnant with me and my twin so she was like really devastated and so I just like took a lot of that on and then I just didn't realize like how much of my life I was apologizing for being born you know yeah like you can't take up space you don't have a right to be here yeah and I take up so much space so it's so confusing.

I think that's like the reaction. Yeah. Because you're like, I'm here. Yeah. You know, but part of you is like, you're worthy of it. I have like all this stuff in my jaw and my neck too. And every time I get work done, someone's always like, that's because like you haven't spoken your truth or whatever. But I'm, I always think of myself as always.

You get strep throat a lot? I don't actually get strep throat. Oh yeah've one of my because i've been practicing yoga for a long time and breath work stuff and they always say like because i have trouble taking up space yeah loud and they're like and i get strep throat yeah all the time and they're like that's because you're like not like saying you're keeping like that trauma in and it's poisoning your throat yeah after years of fine print contracts and getting ripped off by overpriced wireless providers, if we've learned anything, it's that there's always a catch. So when I heard that for a limited time, all Mint Mobile wireless plans are $15 a month

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Statement mobile for details. You know, something amazing happened to me last week, and I think it healed me more than I thought anything could in a split second. And all three of us suffer from pretty bad TMJ. Mine is because when I'm nervous, I just clench my, I don't grind my teeth at night, but I kind of do this. And so I had to go to an orthodontist because I've done just about everything. I've gotten Botox to my master and still that's such a temporary relief.

And I'm like, look, I, so I was like, okay, let me try an orthodontist. And she came in very like, know like everyone was like you gotta see dr yamada dr yamada is the lady so i'm gonna go see dr yamada so excited about a braces kalilah that would be so cute to have a braces but basically basically she said these are crowded and the others the top are spacing and what your teeth try to do is they try to make a perfect okay latch so that causes a lot of just, you know, tension stuff. But that wasn't what changed my life. They take a whole like x-ray, right?

And they show you your teeth. But what I saw was the end of my life as a skeleton. Because all I just saw was my cranium, my jaw. I saw myself as a skeleton, basically. They give you those images i'll send you the picture oh my god he's gonna jerk off to it oh for the show okay i know it's like oh they have like a pre-arranged you got a little jealous but in that moment i was like that's how it ends that's what i'm gonna look like at the very end

for me none of this matters you think now i give a shit about a fucking comment i've seen how it ends that's what the fuck i look like at the end it's all good life is okay finally you don't have to diet anymore annie my jawline is incredible i'm like oh my god but it was in that moment where i was like oh none of this fucking matters like or at least not the small stuff seeing your you're like a skeleton she saw her own death she had like a moment yeah i had a moment of like oh that's it that's me at the end of life and fuck it fuck it all i'm just gonna do me and live in the way that i feel is most authentic to myself i feel like

hallucinogens always like i always have this sort of like moment and hallucinogens where i die and everything is released and you're like oh everything happened exactly the way it was supposed to happen all of these worries were nonsense and i mean i can't like obviously say that's exactly what happens because i didn't actually die. But I feel like that's what happens when you die. What are your thoughts about like ketamine-assisted therapy or hallucinogens to sort of like aid in someone's therapy? I think it's great. I'm excited to hear more. I mean, this research is ongoing.

So I can't say that I'm like totally abreast of like what they're finding out day and day. But I know that like MAPS is a great resource if you want to go to MAPS. They're the ones doing most of the research. Yeah. And I think that it doesn't, to me, it doesn't logically make any sense for us to create medications in a lab with pharmaceutical companies, go through this FDA approval and be like, well, that's okay. But this grows in the ground.

Fuck that shit. And I'm not saying like ketamine grows. Yeah. But like, you know, it doesn't make any sense why we wouldn't do research in that phase either. And like it all should be available to people. Ketamine is king. Ketamine is king.

It changed my fucking life. I do a raver style though. I'm like, love you. But Annie, will you do me a favor? And I know you go to a rave and do ketamine with me. Love you. But Annie, will you do me a favor? And I know you- Go to a rave and do ketamine with me? No. Oh, by the way, Katie,

we have this thing called banana break and it's really just that- Oh, we didn't even tell her. No, we just handed her a banana. You were in a really deep part too. You're like, I saw my own death and there's just a guy squatting. Katie's just like, whatever.

We have this thing called a banana break where it just breaks the tension in the room and we do a re-up on potassium I don't think we've ever timed it right to be honest yeah but we don't have to eat the banana if you don't if you don't it is interesting it's just like you know our little eating disorder galore was

when some days were full some days were not but the realization they tried to give us a cupcake once that was the end of our fucking life we almost had to cancel the show Our little eating disorder galore was when some days were full, some days were not. But the realization. They tried to give us a cupcake once. That was the end of our fucking life. We almost had to cancel the show. People were really upset that we were handed cupcakes and we didn't eat the cupcake because I had just eaten a full meal. It was 11 in the morning.

I just done hot yoga. It was my birthday and I had special dessert plans for later. Right. Special dessert. She was going to have a big cake and stuff for her birthday. Basically, everyone said we were. If you can't eat cake twice in one day, that's a no-go. I could, but I didn't want to that day.

But everyone was like, you LA eating disorders. I was like, oh, my God. Like when I eat sugar, my stomach hurts. You know, if I eat like a cupcake or whatever. Yeah. I don't eat them. It's not in front of you, fucker. Yeah, I guess. It's completely normal. a cupcake but whatever yeah eat them but it's not in front of you fuck yeah i guess

completely normal i would have taken a bite and it would have been chill but i'm not chill or normal what if you just started eating it out aggressive cupcaking so wait what did you want what was the favorite um when i did ketamine afterwards the realization was that oh i've been my mom's workhorse my whole life. It only makes sense that I needed to use horse tranquilizer. Yes, I was just going to say. To get through a lot of the stuff that was happening to me. I was like, crank my ass.

I'm a fucking horse. You think if we have Whitney on, she'll start riding you? She'll start feeding you apples and riding you? She'll just put them in eating bags. Oh, my God. I'd love to be brushed by whitney that actually sounds like a really brushing yeah well when i was i was a diagnosed tactile defensive when i was little and they took me to an occupational therapist who would who touching a little bit yeah she would do

like this like vibrating fuzzy thing on me that looks like a car buffer and then she gave my mom like a surgical like scrub brush the doctors use and she would have to scrub me my ex-boyfriend was always like oh what's wrong with our daughter we should scrub her let's scrub her yes that makes sense scrub her did it help it did help but it was so uncomfortable i mean it was like my least favorite thing on earth it was like so gross to me why was it you hated touch so much? I just didn't. I mean, I'm probably good. I always say I'm like the doctor probably fingered me on the way out. The amount of inappropriate men fingering me in my life.

I came out feet first. I bet you just like popped it in and pulled me out. A little too dark and like fingered my mom in. Fingered your body. Oh my God. Came out breech. So it went up the ass and out. Like bing, bing, bing. It skewer up the ass my mom said i came ass first that's a really cute way to enter the world annie that's i'm

gonna go out too i'm almost like if you're born breech should you just not tell the kid because it's like why should she have to it would be in my life it would be in me well there is really yeah you hold on to trauma your whole body the body keeps score i know halfway through i do not like it it's very hard like maybe my neck is fake no but there is a lot to if uh the way that we're born first of all how we enter the world is very important hence why people do water bursts and things like that i don't know if that's you know i don't know if there's research to show like it's less traumatizing probably is but there is a lot of research about like being in an incubator and stuff. Oh, really?

Or if you have lots of surgeries. Like my brother was born with a cleft lip and palate. And I think being in and out of surgeries when he was little so much was like super traumatizing to him. Yeah. I don't know if he's, you know, that's his own business. But like there's a lot of research about children because you don't get touch. Yeah.

Which is probably why you didn't like it. Yeah. Because there was that period where you really needed the, you know, where they have babies that put them on their chest. Yeah. The skin. That's really important. Yeah.

My mom said that I would only, I didn't like being hugged, but I loved cuddling with my brother. Oh, because that's what you were used to in the womb. Oh, Max, call me back. Call me. They're coming to surprise me. I'm so excited. My brother and my sister-in-law my nieces i always

surprise them because my schedule's so crazy i don't want to have to cancel on them so i always like pop out of boxes and do stuff like that and like or like the trunk i always pop out no i don't they're gonna like start taking like psychology classes like was auntie really but like how bipolar was auntie popping out of boxes everywhere always like in their closet i did scare the shit out of my knees once because i it was after covid the first time we saw them i was like okay i don't want to like scare them too much in this box so we put like a box in the driveway so i put on my leopard print jacket because they know me as having a leopard print jacket but my niece didn't think auntie has a leopard print jacket she thought a leopard is attacking me and she had like went into full fight or flight like her face in the

picture she's like like so scared when i popped out and she came to right away but it was so funny it was so funny but they're coming to see me and so they don't know that i know and they're going to surprise me oh oh that is so you think they're going to pop out of a box i think they will i think there will be a box involved. I love this family theme. It is. It's really good. I literally have a policy in my life.

No surprises. Oh, we stopped talking for three years over one surprise. I love the extreme differences of our personality. Like flash mob. No flash mob surprise. I want my boyfriend to give me a flash mob for my proposal. A surprise flash mob. Do you have, where does one start the journey of repairing themselves if it's like this zero to one emotional neglect?

Because I'm like, it almost, I'm like irked by that because I just, it's, I don't understand it. Like I can understand that i got dumped and that fucked me up i can understand that i was alone in my room and i was bored i do not understand ages zero to one i mean i recently read i i'm not done with the book yet but i i um npr did a segment about the book attached and i know even though like i remember what it looks like on the cover right and it talks about just the like the four attachment styles but he does talk about that very important age of zero to one like if you were just made you know um if you were forced to cry it out

versus you know coddled during that moment yeah what was that study what was that study they had with the it was with like monkeys right and then didn't they have like a fake mom the wire mom yeah the good enough mother yeah that's that's like i did a bunch of videos about like shit that happened in the past we couldn't do those studies anymore yeah because like animal rights because man that breaks your heart to see those little baby monkeys i know i just like get it out of my head i wish i didn't read it but um but yeah that's pretty much kind of what it is is that even if like your mom was I don't mean

this is like a put down to her but she was like the wire mom the wire mom the wire monkey you didn't get the real mom that you needed the like warm cuddling like you didn't get the mom that was like just take a nap and relax sweetheart like it was like you know because like okay there's the thing is in

my case there's so many opposing confusing things like i was breastfed till i was three and a half neither of my parents worked the first seven might call that sexual abuse the first seven years of my life both parents were always home they never left to go to work so like that's where i I get even more confused. Well, okay. So a couple things. So we'll talk about like, what's your first step like to move out of this? And it sounds like Annie's kind of done some of this stuff already. So she's doing good. But the, so when it comes to parents being around, it's not just them being around. The thing about emotional neglect, I think is so hard for people to like tangibly grasp is that them being there,

feeding you, putting a roof over your head, probably, I mean, we need that. Those are all like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You need those basic needs to be met. But as you get up to the peak of those needs, some of them for you were probably like to feel heard and understood or soothed in a certain way. And like there was was none of that so you probably didn't get the like let me play with her hair and tell her how much i love her and and let me tell her about my day or whatever maybe if i drink out of this bowl she literally because i also always say i wasn't raised i was watched like i they knew where i was i was safe but no one and no one interacted with you yes and i probably wanted that more than anything yes and i would even ask questions and they would i was i don't

know like i would be like where do babies come from i don't know is michael jackson a man or a woman i don't know i like no one answered me never ask those questions together that's a bad answer oh so you went through that whole phase where kids asking, no one would answer you. They say, I don't know. Breath work, baby. You know, you got to do breath work. What helped for Bobby a lot was when he went to this one week trauma intensive in Arizona. And they make you go to build a bear.

you go to build a bear and they make you record something that kind of makes makes you feel like this bear is your the child the wounded child and so you carry this bear around and it's still at his house and anytime he feels like like his inner child is like suffering or he can like go to that bear and he can give that bear what the bear never had and it's very healing for him it's almost like nice tits does that make sense where it's totally yeah it's called inner child work so that's really where the first i mean it's a big first step but that's really what you could do like i love the build a bear yeah um there i forget the name of the book but there's a book that i've used and i put together an inner child workshop a few months ago um but right in

your dominant hand like the one that you write in so i'm left-handed as adult you to little you and then right back in your non-dominant hand from little journaling can be fucking wild i have definitely been answered by journaling i've never tried it with the other hand. If you read old ones, you're like, you know, sometimes you see into parts of yourself that maybe you can't, it might not feel safe enough to think about it on the regular. Or it also just might not be accessible all the time. But that could be helpful for you. I feel that in my chest because it's like you're writing with your left hand and it's not as stable. It does look like a child. It's so sweet.

And then you get to ask for what you wanted. Like, what did you wish your mom and dad did? Answered your questions, rubbed your back, played with your hair. Played one game. Yeah, anything, right? Write down some of the things and then ask for it. That's why I thought of Hawaii about you. I wish you'd play one game with me.

You know, you missed out that day. We went to the Mormon temple, temple annie and i we did we did a whole photo shoot i was had my ass out at the mormon temple yeah i think i was watching the news yeah um i also do want to clarify because first of all i'm like unlocking so much and i'm really really excited about it i want to clarify though i know that my parents did their best and i do not hold any of this against them and like i know that my parents did their best and i do not hold any of this against them and like i know that my mom was a very and i've always it's almost like just reaffirming things i've always known but you are a therapist and you say them so clearly and like i

feel so seen and heard by this conversation but i know that like i know that my parents did a good job in the best. They did the best they could. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in parents, it's like having a certain set of tools that you're working with. But they weren't always the ones you needed. Yeah.

But also, like, I always think about this, too. Like, just generationally, like, we're evolving so much because of the Internet and so much information can come out. But it was like they had, like like so many different parenting tools right they had like dr spock was like what that was like what the 70s or 60s i think the early 70s yeah and then like so all the philosophies like i was really lactose intolerant and my parents didn't realize so they would like feed me all this milk and then i had all these shitting problems and constipation and stuff which was like really traumatic as a kid but they didn, it just wasn't like, lactose intolerance wasn't like a thing people were talking about all the time.

Why would they know? Yeah. Yeah, so I can't be like mad at them. They're working, they're trying to raise three kids. Yeah, they're like calcium is good for kids, you know? Yeah, they're being marketed to drink more, eat more, and you're like, bleh. But it's like, we're in a really cool position that if we do decide to have kids,

we do have like a lot of, we have learned a lot, we have evolved a lot. Totally, and two things can exist. I think this is the struggle, especially with stuff like that and just things in our life where we can know our parents did their best or that they loved us. And we can also acknowledge that it wasn't the way that I needed it or that was still hurtful. And those things can exist at the same time. For some reason, we feel like it's one or the other, things can exist at the same time for some reason we feel like it's one or the other but like that's life like people will people think differently like people are able able to give you different things and then this is maybe what like this is your expectation this is what they're able to give

and we have to try to like grieve that difference and right and be like okay that's what you can offer i'm okay with that yeah you know and then I get to process what that felt like. Like, okay, I can still be upset. My parents did the best they could. I know they loved me, but I also recognize that, like, I needed to be heard more.

I needed to feel seen more. And then you can, like, I needed to rest more. And, like, hear yourself more. Like,

whatever it is, like, I always feel like whatever I'm not getting from a relationship with someone else, I do when I really, like,

break it down and think of a spam. Great. Oh, Tim mind spam Tim Dillon but um he's eating spam but like whatever it is that I'm like lacking in a relationship is really something I just need to give myself like it has to come from me anyway for it to really matter so it's like if I'm pissed that someone isn't listening to me or whatever i just have to like sit and really like be with myself and listen to myself i like to think of i'm doing a lot i just came back from an ayahuasca retreat too i didn't even tell you guys that oh that's right no we can't say out out oh okay yeah i think i might have said i think you said

outside the universe it was true i like to when i think about my mom or where I'm at, at least in my life, I like to think about it as, oh, I bore witness to her evolution. And she went from scared, young mom, not giving me anything I need to being an amazing person today and really, you not perfect and you know but I kind of it's kind of cool I feel honored that I got to see this person evolve and she is my mother she's this 3d thing she's just not mom she is this human being that has lived a very complex life and to see her now in her 60s being a like just someone I can't recognize my young self could never recognize is really soothing for me yeah your mom's really cool it's so nice like going to that fourth of July party at your house and your mom's just there like so like I don't know she's so down she's like a fan of yours she she is and she's like you know just completely different

like fans I feel like all of our parents are like fans of us yeah yeah like they really pay attention to what we're doing and i feel so good about my relationship with my family right now like i just feel especially because there's been more space in the last year i feel like it's just i feel really good about it yeah and you talking about your mom i'm like i really almost just started crying like thinking about what our moms have gone through and how they're i don't know i just in general i think our culture is hard on motherhood it's very difficult and like i think about my mom and i'm like she was pregnant at 21 not with me but with my sister but pregnant at 21 nine months pregnant was being cheated on nine months i'm like imagine if you heard a girl if that was a

girlfriend of yours you'd be like i'll murder him right but like that's i'm like oh my god i can't believe my that makes me feel like my mom is stronger than me. Like I'm like, I don't know. And I just, I don't know. I'm like holding love and space and support and respect for that or something. Also like her mom, like whatever her mom went through, like she had to handle the burden of that as well.

It's like, we're like carrying on like all of the sort of trauma from our, I don't want to say ancestral trauma because I make fun of- Generational trauma. Yeah, I make fun of Whitney for saying that. She said ancestral. She says, well, she said, I don't know what she says,

but I made a joke on her thing where I said if you say, whatever, it doesn't matter. But you know you do. And it's like, and it's just even if it's just like learned behavioral or just like literally in our DNA when we're born, we're like taking on some of that,

that which are i wanted this is a total like seg different departure from the whole trauma thing but i recently learned this term i was listening to my friend shanti sharon she has a new podcast out but she talks about this this word called compers, which is like the opposite of jealousy. And it's basically like the way she explained it. It's like you go to the bathroom, you're in a bar with your fiance, let's say Dave, and you come back, you go to the bathroom, you come back and you see that there's this beautiful woman hitting on him. And you see, instead of being like oh you recognize that you know what he's um he is setting up like proper boundaries he's not like giving into the attention but i know that he probably does enjoy this moment and i'm happy for him i do feel that yeah i really love i don't feel like i know i saw a good thing yeah yeah I'm like and try to

you know I'm gonna make shirts that say I have a crush on Todd and sell them oh that's so cute no but I do kind of I feel like

I'm leveling up to that place where I think Annie and I we've talked about it where it kind of feels good when someone hits on your man and you're like

oh this is probably like feeding him in some way even though he'll never say it and I just kind of want to be happy for that moment because it's not a threat to our relationship it's just a fleeting thing but it's because you're secure in it too i think jealousy comes out of insecurity right it doesn't come out of like i really think my man or my girl is going to cheat on me it's more like i don't trust in our relationship i'm not secure in it and then you'll hear people that are like well well, I just don't trust the women.

And it's like, well. It takes two. I don't know if you've heard of it on the bees. That's like a sad excuse. Yeah. Trying to run away from or something. Yeah, the reality. Yeah, Dave is like the,

I feel like my current partner is my first real secure attachment. And it's like, whoa, that was it uncomfortable at first. Yeah. I thought, I mean, I,

it was not secure for the first few years because I was still, you know, myself, but it was like through, through repeated, like, I don't know it being him being who he said he was repeatedly. I like just, it happened. The consistency was said he was repeatedly, I like just it happened.

The consistency was like healing for you. Yeah. Yeah. I again with the NPR attached, the book attached, there was this thing he said that really spoke to me, which is, you know, it's kind of been put in our head all these years. Like if you can't love yourself, you can't possibly love another. But he was like, no, you can really learn to love yourself in a relationship when you are with someone who's secure and someone like, for instance, like Dave, like there is almost like a lot of epiphanies you have when you're with someone like who is really healthy.

Or even good or bad epiphanies. Like I think some bad relationships have taught me a lot about myself. Oh, yeah. Every single one has taught me something yeah and you're like what the hell was i thinking with that or like why was that so triggering yeah why did yeah like instead of like blaming that person it's like why did i allow myself to be treated like what was i feeling in my own self-esteem where i thought i deserved that treatment rather than this is like a monster and yeah and like why didn't i go on one date and be

like no yeah that way of life is helpful in many ways and i like it because it takes you out of victim mentality and it puts you in the driver's seat of your own life i love that and that's the important thing is that but it's that people want to blame everybody else that's a really powerless place to be yeah because then you're like well i'm just a victim to what everybody else decides to do so i have no control that's like the worst thing a good life no it's better to like be in control and then you feel like well then i can make changes then i'm empowered to like improve my life doing whatever i feel is going to make me feel like a better version i have a friend in my life who is that but not a not currently at like pointing the gun at me but it's like people who they're always the victim every life is out to get them and life is always screwing them over like what which is part of why I'm inspired to I was like I have to do. I'm like looking at a gun. It's actually being exposed to that has helped me not want to blame others because it's so easy to be like, it's everybody's fault.

But like, I want to be in the driver's seat. Do you have advice on how to encourage others to get in the driver's seat of their own life? Or is me even asking that it's like, you can't do anything. So just let it go. I mean, mostly you can't do anything. Only thing we can do is just lead by demonstration. So like you doing what do anything so just let it go i mean mostly you can't do anything only thing we can do is just lead by demonstration so like you doing what you're doing is enough like you it sucks and it's i have to remind myself but we can't control other people even when we mean we

want to do it with love like this would be so much better for you if you just stop blaming everybody or it'd be so much better for you if you just wouldn't like lash out randomly at people then you'd actually have friends or you know what I mean? Like we can see things unraveling, but we just have to do our thing. If they ask, you can support good decisions. Like if they're like, oh, hey, how do you think I handled that or whatever? You're like, you handled it terribly. Like you can be honest. You know what I mean?

But that's about it. It's only if they ask. And it sucks. I know. Yeah. Well, shit. This has been a very um healing episode i know this is like the most energized i've ever felt after recording like i just feel like yeah i have so much

information and i feel understood and yeah thank you yay good i know you need that that feel heard and understood part and good color you picked a color. Did you know what the set looked like? I looked it up. Yeah, this was a very good choice. Very good choice. It's a holy color. Catholics love purple. That's the color for Versace for the season.

Eggplant. Katie, thank you so much for being here. Katie, of course. And you mentioned that you have workshops. Yeah, books, workshops. I should have brought stuff for you. Oh, I have your book, Traumatize. Oh, yeah, yeah. Good, you have workshops. Yeah, books, workshops. I should have brought stuff for you. Oh, I have your book, Traumatize. Oh, yeah, yeah, good, good, good, yeah.

And we can find you on Instagram and TikTok? YouTube, Instagram, yeah, Katie Morton, K-A-T-I-M-O-R-T-O-N. And that's my website too. So people do all the workshops, you just go to katiemorton.com. Thank you so much. And I hope that you'll come back regularly even. Esther's like, maybe once a week for an hour

talk to me about my trauma the last time we had dr drew on um a couple months ago and i he wanted to just he was just so fatigued after listening to her oh i forgot about that yeah kalilah he by the way he's a doctor like he checks your knee like we were like we're molested he like checks to see if your reflexes are good he like has like a stethoscope we were like

they fisted us as children he's both no I know he's that too I know in my room I got you on the fisting

but we were like on the edge of our seat like it'd be like are you done are you done okay but then what happened to me

I'm like but me Annie and I were in a fist off it was great be like are you done are you done okay but then what happened to me i'm like but me annie and i were in a fist off he's coming back fisted down the lane is what we call it so this is these episodes are always so just cathartic for us and the last time dr drew like he was like all right i'm done and we were like no don't leave don't go now we're doing it to her we're gonna do it you guys thank you so much for listening and thank you to katie for all that she just did for us and we will see you next week with an all-new episode