Trash Tuesday w/ Esther Povitsky & Khalyla Kuhn - Kathy Griffin's Life on the PTSD List

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Starting point is 00:02:01 You can get it on Apple, on Amazon, wherever you buy movies. And I can't wait for you to see it and hopefully love it. Hi, everybody. It's me, Kathy Griffin. on wherever you buy movies and I can't wait for you to see it and hopefully love it. Hi everybody, it's me, Kathy Griffin. Please come see me live at the Kathy Griffin My Life on the PTSD List Tour. Get it? D-list. Marketing back. All right, here's the dates coming up. I'm gonna cheat. March 30th, I'm in Phoenix. April 3rd, I'm in Tucson. April 4th, I'm in Palm Desert. April 5th, I'm in Napa. April 6th, I'm in Long Beach, which is sold out. Ooh, sexy. Come see me. I'm really excited about Tiger Belly's next show. We've begged production for this specific place for a very long time. Tiger Belly will be at Hawaii Theater, April 26th.

Starting point is 00:02:37 You can go get your tickets at tigerbellylive.com. If you've never been to Tiger Belly shows, they are not what you think they are. They are super fun. They're super interactive. And we can't wait to see you there. Well, here we are yet again. Here we are back for another episode of Trash Tuesday. And today is a little different because we have an icon, a legend. She had her life on the D-list for many years on Bravo. She had a special every year on Bravo for a long time. She's a movie star. She's famously played herself in Pulp Fiction. Who else has done that? Who? I don't know. Please welcome Kathy Griffin. Oh my God, I love her. She's so funny. I'm just a humble icon.

Starting point is 00:03:29 That's all. Just a humble, humble legend. Who sleeps in her makeup. Okay, you guys, I slept in my makeup. Just hear me out. This is unforgivable. It's unforgivable. I know, I know.

Starting point is 00:03:39 I did a shoot yesterday for PETA with my four dogs, and they paid for hair and makeup. PETA pays for hair and makeup? PETA pays for hair and makeup? PETA paid for hair and makeup. That's what they do with your donations. They pay for Kathy Griffin's hair and makeup. And so I just think you should know, I am yesterday's Kathy Griffin as well as today's. I just want to say I advocate for this.

Starting point is 00:04:00 I love a day-old makeup. I think it's better. I think that's where I thrive, when I look a day old makeup. I think it's better. I think that's where I thrive when I look a little slept on. The eye shadow sunk in. It's actually part of my skin now, I think. Something else you both have in common now that Kathy spilled her tea, you both have four dogs. Four dogs. I didn't know that about you. Oh my God. They are my life. I'm going through a divorce. They're my new husband. And yes, I sleep in bed with them. I know that's a **** clock. But I'm not thinking about **** right now. I'm just trying to survive. And that should be the name of my tour. I'm not thinking about **** right now. I'm just trying to survive. and Elliot Stabler, and they are detectives for the Special Victims Unit. Because when I was on tour overseas six years ago, no matter what country you're in, they show Law & Order SVU.

Starting point is 00:04:53 So when I came home, I thought I have to name my two puppies after Olivia and Elliot. And then the other ones are named after my mother, who is either in heaven or hell. I'm really not sure. She's at least still in purgatory with all the drinking she's done. And their names are Maggie and Mary because that was my mom's first and middle name. Oh, I like that. That is so cute. So it's a whole legacy. And they're a pack. And they're so ill-behaved that Cesar Millan came to my house and he threw his hands up. So it's a recent divorce. It's recent. And we were together 12 years. my heart is actually broken. Really? So I'm doing all kinds of wacky woo woo stuff to just survive. And I did

Starting point is 00:05:31 call my tour, my life on the PTSD list. By the way, please tell me you love that title. Of course. I already knew it. I love it. Because I actually have been diagnosed with PTSD and I know that sounds really dumb because I'm a comic, but somehow I feel like I caught it like a virus. And so this divorce is just like another thing. And so I have like these really bad panic attacks. And the way it manifests in me, this is going to be really fun for your listeners, is I can't stop vomiting, which lays you out. Like if you barf and then can't stop barfing, that's it. You're just in bed, like writhing in pain. And so I do all sorts of remedies. And like the latest one I'm trying

Starting point is 00:06:12 is that my Kundalini yoga teacher, and I don't even know what Kundalini means or if it's a person or a place. I don't believe any of it really works. I just do it. Wait, what triggers the vomiting or is it just a spontaneous? It's, you know what? I think I got PTSD. I think it was a combination of the Trump scandal. And then, you know, I became addicted to prescription pills and tried to take my life and ended up on a 5150 psych hold. Been there. Can relate.

Starting point is 00:06:37 Three times. Yeah. You guys have too much in common. I love it. Yeah. We might have a little kindred spirit here. I didn't know that I was in a psych ward, and I didn't know why the nice lady wouldn't leave the foot of my bed.

Starting point is 00:06:50 And I kept telling her, like, you can go. This must be so boring for you to just sit. I didn't know I was on a watch. Yeah, it's interesting. Because I was so messed up on pills that I was like, what kind of hotel is this? And I did try to call the concierge. I'm not kidding.

Starting point is 00:07:06 I was like, this room is dusty and I need to call downstairs. And when you call downstairs, they just add more days to your stay. Wait, they gave you special treatment then? You had your own room. I did. I had my own room. And I, because Cedars doesn't have a psych ward anymore, but they did have to put me on a lockdown because I was so serious about taking my life. Like I wrote a note and I took like a hundred benzos and I injured

Starting point is 00:07:30 myself because I fell down the stairs and then I didn't die, which, which initially was a bummer, but now it's a good thing. But initially I was like, oh, you're kidding. How long before you actually came around and figured out where you were, what you had done, and that you were still alive? Honestly, waking up and having like bruises and lacerations on your body and not knowing how it happened. And there was like blood in the bed. And I was like, how did I get here? And then, I'm not even kidding. And I should put this in my new show.

Starting point is 00:08:02 And the audiences have been very forgiving and laughing. But my first words were, oh, you are kidding me. Like I can't even do this right. So I then texted, one of my doctors was dumb enough to give me a cell phone number. So I texted him. I've always waited for that day for me. It's the best manipulation.

Starting point is 00:08:20 It's like a dream come true. Yes, because enough with the going through the office and waiting seven months. What about the link you log into and you message? Okay, CS link. Yes, of course. And that's complicated. I have CS link on Face ID.

Starting point is 00:08:32 I am so quick with that. I do too, but it's not the same. It's almost as good as texting them personally, but this poor b**** got a text from me. It was on a Saturday night and it was like, Hi, it's Kathy Griffin. Sorry to bug you on a Saturday night. Anyway, took 100 benzos, tried to kill myself, didn't work, fell down the stairs. I might need some x-rays. And so he's like, yes, he's like, I'm totally, totally busy. Yep. Be

Starting point is 00:08:58 right back. And so I went to the, so I went to the emergency room and I didn't know that if you tell them everything you did, they legally have to put you on the psych hold. And so I did. And then once I was on the psych hold, I was like, get me out, get me off this rock. And so I was there for three days. How long were you there? My third time was a month. Oh, now did you like it and feel peace or did you want to get out? Um, I was just, this is when I was a teenager. Okay. So it's been a while. You weren't 59 like me?

Starting point is 00:09:30 No. Because that's really the comedy is that I was 59, not normal like you. But I feel as though at 59, at least you have major tragedies to go off of where it's like, you know what? I had a good legacy of tragedies. Right. Which counts. Like a whole lifetime of very traumatic things. I think when you're a teenager and you try to take your own life, things, you haven't connected many dots yet. You're just like, I have all of these strange

Starting point is 00:09:55 feelings I can't reconcile with. It's difficult. I just want out. Yeah. So I think being in a place like that at first feels very communal. and like you get to talk to other girls who have these like strange feelings with you yeah but the weirdest part was that one of the counselors ended up asking for my number okay as he was helping me pack not to brag not to brag Kathy but did you did you get at my psych hold and now I feel ripped off. And I blame my insurance company. I really do. They should have had a provision for that. Blame Cedars.

Starting point is 00:10:28 Well, I don't mean to take them to task, but they should have a package that includes f***. I think so. I'm just saying, for the money I paid there. And so what did you do when they asked for your number, when the guy asked for your number? They dated. I gave my number because I was a dumb 17-year-old. Of course, you're 17. You don't know.

Starting point is 00:10:43 And he talks about my feelings with me. He was probably very compassionate. And he wore Aeropostale a lot. And I was like, I think that's a cool boy brand. And we went out on a couple dates. He was a single dad. What? Look at.

Starting point is 00:10:58 I know. Everyone's jealous. Everyone. The whole neighborhood just went, what? That sounds great. Yeah. How did you f*** up? Because this guy, I'm team this guy.

Starting point is 00:11:07 Dream boy, right? Yes. Totally appropriate behavior by a professional in his industry. And then we went on a couple dates, and then I went off to college after that, and we never spoke again. But I'm sure something probably would have continued. Maybe you weren't sick enough for him anymore. Yeah. Maybe he likes him in the psych ward or nothing. Psych ward or bust. That's so real. He might have a standard that you couldn't meet anymore. But I mean, that really is-

Starting point is 00:11:33 It's his boundary. You should respect it. Yeah, seriously. It's kind of your fault. God, I fucked it up, guys. My dream boy is done. I don't mean to say Mr. Right, but I mean- I'm Mr. Right, but I mean... Wait, no, Kathy. So when you... So you don't... For a few hours or days, you don't realize you're there being held against your will.

Starting point is 00:11:52 Once you do realize that, are you like, okay, maybe this is for the better? Are you like freaking out, get me out of here? Both. I knew I had to stop doing pills. And...

Starting point is 00:12:02 How long had you been kind of on this downward spiral? Not to keep blaming everything on the Trump thing, but honestly, I really didn't start to abuse pills until then because the amount of negativity coming toward me was so overwhelming. And the FBI was coming to the house telling me about credible threats versus non-credible threats, et cetera. And, you know, being a happy workaholic and having the phone just stop ringing,

Starting point is 00:12:27 I just would sit at home and do pills all day. And I was doing uppers and downers and painkillers. And I knew I needed to get into recovery. And I knew AA was a good thing. Like I had friends in the program. So luckily the doctor from the hospital hooked me up with a husband and wife team that like were not, I guess, sober companions. And I was glad they were AA people because I didn't want to like join any weird, like sober groups that weren't. What I like about AA is number one is free. So nobody's making any money and they don't have one leader. So it's not like culting in that way. And the reason I say AA as opposed to NA, which is Narcotics Anonymous, is AA just has a lot more meetings. And it's really the same ism, as they say, the same addiction thing.

Starting point is 00:13:15 And I like women's meetings because when I go to mixed meetings, I just, I'm sorry, I can't relate to the guys that are like, and then when I was using, I beat up my girlfriend, knocked her teeth out, punched a hole in the wall, and now I'm happy to be clean. And I'm like, um, um. This is making it worse. Because when you go to women's meetings, it's all women that have eating disorders as well. And that's more my jam. I was going to say, I used to go to OA. Yes, OA's a great program.

Starting point is 00:13:40 Yes. And I did stumble into AA once. And it was a little, it wasn't more intense for me, but I do see the connection. And recently I've been kind of addicted to marijuana and I'm thinking like, oh, maybe AA is the right. I think so. I think there is a Marijuana Anonymous, but I just like AA because you have so many choices.

Starting point is 00:14:02 And like I said, I just prefer women's meetings. I do too. It's just more relatable to me. And I get that we all have the same thing, but the guys mostly come from the way their addiction came out was anger. And I just, that just was obviously never my thing. And believe it or not, I've never beat anybody up. I've wanted to, a lot of executives, Les Moonves, for example, or Jeff Zucker, I could name names. executives, Les Moonves, for example, or Jeff Zucker, I could name names. But I just find a lot of comfort in the women's meetings. And so I've been in recovery now for three and a half years and I love it. And I have AA friends as well as non-AA friends. Yay. Were you sober?

Starting point is 00:14:38 But detoxing was so hard, man. Like I didn't do the like rehab detox. I did old school detox. And I walked around for four months shaking. What's old school detox? There's a way you can go to rehab and they detox you with an IV. I know that way. Yes. And this way is just cold turkey. And it's just- Like no support for your symptoms as you're going through it?

Starting point is 00:15:00 No, it's just you're journaling and you're doing three meetings a day. And you're working with your sponsor. And you're doing service and all the classic AA stuff. But I'm just saying it was a bitch, man. I was sweating so bad. I had to walk around with like a wet gym towel all day and I kept putting it under the cold water, squeezing it, put it around my neck. Because no matter what I did or where I went, I would just be pouring sweat. And like I said, the trem just be pouring sweat. And like I said, the tremor was really bad. Was that a conscious decision to do it the old way?

Starting point is 00:15:28 It was COVID. And so rehabs were really limited anyway. And so I did get sober at my house, which is not really probably the best way. Like it's probably better to go to rehab, but I was able to do it with the help of really a woman. A woman came to my house every day for four months, piss tested me. We would do three Zoom meetings a day. You know, I got a sponsor who I still have to this day and stuff. So that's why I did it the old fashioned way. But I'm a little jealous when I hear about like

Starting point is 00:15:58 people that detoxed in a week with the IV just because I just felt like mine was never going to end. Yeah. But I feel like there is something to be said about that prolonged physical suffering maybe where you're constantly- It makes you definitely never want to use again. Right. Because like a one week detox, I mean, not to say that it's easy, but it does cut the time exponentially. And then you're sort of just out of the physical pain of it all. And you can just

Starting point is 00:16:22 focus on the psychological stuff. You didn't earn it. Maybe it's very militant of me to think, but it's almost like if the harder this journey is out, then maybe I will remember not to dip my toes back. Oh yeah. I mean, I never want to be in that place. I mean, when I think about waking up with blood in the bed and stuff, that is so freaking dark. And also I wasn't thinking about when, you know, you take your life, what it would mean to those around you. And the doctor and the psych ward was very effective in saying, look, there's millions of studies you can read about your friends feel guilty. Your family

Starting point is 00:16:58 feels guilty. And I thought, well, wait, I wasn't thinking about that stuff. I was just thinking I wanted a way out. And I felt like I was suffering and I felt like I kind of had a good life and a good run. And I just felt like it was in the cards for me. But now I know that was 100% the drugs talking, 100%. So once I got clean, it was like never have had a suicidal ideation again. And so I'm a big proponent and not, I don't want to say, I'm a big proponent about talking about suicidal ideation because I think it's more common than people think. And I don't think that because the thought crosses your mind, it means you're going to do it or you're going to encourage someone else to do it. So I actually have a bit in my show where I talk about how I tried to do it.

Starting point is 00:17:45 And the audience laughs because it was so over the top and so ridiculous. And I was so messed up on pills that I think I've been successful, knock on wood, in making it funny. And if you can make it funny and if it's real, I feel like it's kind of fair game for standup. That is exactly how I feel. So I, not to the extreme of your situation, but I, two years ago, I had a miscarriage. And like, I, no, thank you. I'm currently pregnant now. So fingers crossed further along this time. But I really felt like the only way for me to truly heal and cope with this was to talk about it in my

Starting point is 00:18:25 stand-up yeah and like a lot of people at first were like that's not a funny subject and i'm like this is my it's your story art my life your story and i with a lot of people though it's like you don't get to tell me how i cope with things you don't get to tell me how i tell my story because i mean especially on this show, we've told some pretty dark grim things about ourselves and it's always somehow like turned against us where she was like, she talked about suicide so flippantly. She talked about it. It's like, look, this is my experience. This is how I cope with it. This is how I'm able to tell it on camera. Like you don't get to kind of dictate how I do that. But I wish in my generation people had talked about it.

Starting point is 00:19:05 Same. Because in my generation, it was this mystery. And if there was a suicide in a family, that family almost disavowed that person. Right. Or it was almost like, do you go to the funeral of someone? I just think having been kind of on the precipice, I've also heard via social media, you shouldn't be talking about this. You're being flippant. But I agree. It's your story. And if you can make it funny or relatable, it's the way you tell it. But if it's your story,

Starting point is 00:19:36 it's your story. So it's not appropriate for someone to try to dictate. And by the way, I have a feeling that most of the people who go online and say that, they didn't even really listen. Yeah. Or they may have heard about it from somebody else. And I'm like, okay, just calm down. The audience is laughing. I am hardly promoting these things. I'm not promoting pills when I talk about going to a fucking psych ward.

Starting point is 00:19:59 Like, trust me, nobody is lining up to go to the psych ward because of the Kathy Griffin show. But talking about this stuff, it's relatable. And I say to the audience, like, by the way, after that, I then got lung cancer and I've never smoked. So, of course, I do some cancer jokes because I ask the audience. I say, clap if you've been affected by cancer in any way with anyone in your life. The whole audience claps. So I like that we're in a period where in standup,

Starting point is 00:20:25 you can talk about these topics more openly and the haters don't get it and they're not doing it themselves. But I like when the audience members will come up to me after a show and say, you know, I was there. Thank you for talking about that. Yeah. And also like Marc Maron's most recent special, he makes fun of his dad's dementia. Yes. And it's, like, it's so heartbreaking and it's so funny. I loved it because my mom had that and I was watching Marc's special going, yeah, this is, I've certainly cried about it. It's okay to watch somebody.

Starting point is 00:20:58 The way he did it was masterful, I thought. Me too. And it was funny, but it was relatable. masterful, I thought. And it was funny, but it was relatable. Yeah. A big theme of this show in general is like just laughing at the things that have tortured us and made us feel shitty. Because 99% of the time we've probably just sat in a room and lived in the sorrow of it all. There is a little bit of a pressure release when you're able to just say it out loud without being in a puddle of tears in your own room. So it's like, give me that.

Starting point is 00:21:27 Give me that opportunity to kind of look at my long string of sexual assault or suicide attempts or this and just let me have a moment of levity about it. Like, why can't I have that? And that's not to say that it doesn't hurt me still or it doesn't live in me deeply. But the levity is a coping mechanism also. And I really do believe laughing has absolutely helped me get through cancer. And I know that sounds weird, but if one more person at my oncologist calls me Kathie Lee Gifford every time, they're like, Ms. Gifford? And I'm like, yes, it's me. I'm here. It's me, co-host of Regis and Kathie Lee. And you Gifford? And I'm like, yes, it's me. I'm here. It's me, co-host of Regis and Kathy Lee.

Starting point is 00:22:08 And you just got to laugh. I'm not going to yell at the receptionist at the oncologist's office. So I went. I had the surgery where they took out half my left lung. And then I was injured during the surgery. So I don't know. I think they were, honestly, I think the doctor was too rough. I'm just going to say that's what I think happened.

Starting point is 00:22:29 And I'm just saying that's my opinion, Dr. Rob McKenna. And I feel that all I know is I didn't have this voice in the morning and I had this voice now. And actually, it's good now. I've had five surgeries since then. But I have a permanently paralyzed left vocal cord and I have an aperture above my vocal cords. So when I do stand up, the adrenaline makes my voice go into a little bit of a higher pitch and it's a little bit of a Minnie Mouse

Starting point is 00:22:50 quality. And I'm like very self-conscious about it, but I just say it. It's like the first thing I say in the show. And I use a headset mic now instead of a handheld, which I didn't know is better amplification. So I don't have to strain my voice as much. And then the audience, they seem to forget. So I'm so grateful because before the tour, I just thought, I can't do my same impressions. I can't yell like Oprah. I can't do Trump anymore. And I like to do my silly impressions. They're part of the show. So if I'm going to do an impression, I'll just be like, you guys know who I'm trying to emulate. And I am so grateful for every single show. I've been going over, I've been doing like two and a half hours because I

Starting point is 00:23:31 feel like every show is going to be my last show. I don't have an opener. I apologize to the audience if you have to go to the bathroom because I will do at least two hours. And I just love it. I can't stop thinking of new stories and trying new stuff and the audiences have been so loving. Because I feel like if you're coming to this tour, you probably know at least about the Trump thing. So they're coming in the door, I think with just this like open arms.

Starting point is 00:24:01 Like, yeah, it's just, I know I sound corny, but it's just like fantastic. That is so amazing. And like, how do you feel after a show? Are you so happy? Like, do you have that glow, that high? Well, first of all, I go over the whole show in my head all night. So I go, oh, I screwed this up.

Starting point is 00:24:16 Oh, I should do this. Oh, I should have done that one. Oh, I should have switched this around. So that doesn't go away even at 63. Sorry. Here's the bad news. Never, never. And my body does feel like somebody beat me up with baseball bats because I like roll around a lot now that I have a headset mic and I just am more physical, but I love that part. But the next

Starting point is 00:24:39 day, like, I feel like I want to do that pink, you know, pink does like the ice plunge. Yeah. So I will say stay in shape, ladies, because it is an athletic field that we are in, whether you like it or not. And yet I am kind of on a high after the show. Yeah. And some shows are sold out and some are at 50%. And I think I probably lost about a third of my audience to the Trump thing permanently. And that's just the way it is. And I don't love that, but it's my new reality. So I'm just so happy to be doing 40 cities on this leg of the tour.

Starting point is 00:25:13 And then I'll do the larger cities in the fall. And I even get to go back and play Carnegie Hall in October. I wanted to ask you about this. Which I can't believe because that'll be the sixth time I've played Carnegie by myself. I want to ask you about this. Which I can't believe because that'll be the sixth time I've played Carnegie by myself. I know. I want to ask you. And I'll be in the record of Carnegie for being the only female comic because Joan and I, Joan Rivers and I both had played Carnegie five times just by ourselves, not with a lineup

Starting point is 00:25:37 or a charity function. And so this will be the sixth Carnegie. You can finally outdo her. And that makes me feel uncanceled. Like that makes me be like, maybe I'm finally uncancelled. But also cancelled, I mean, like, is that even a thing now? Like, you're in good company at this point if you've been cancelled. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who hasn't been cancelled. Some people have gotten more popular with their cancellations.

Starting point is 00:26:02 Like, can we just, can I just say, I'm still not over the insanity of that, and I know I should move on from the Trump thing. But I still go, oh, my God, the president and the White House and the attorney general came after a female comedian for a photo that scared him. Yeah, that's a little dramatic. A little dramatic. And also, that's a little dramatic. A little dramatic. And also, that's where your taxpayer dollars are going. You know, I still like... It's absurd. It's just reminiscent of Nadia, too.

Starting point is 00:26:34 Like, we had Nadia from Pussy Riot on. Oh, totally. Nadia from Pussy Riot. So we had her on. Can you imagine having to try to escape Putin? Like, having to try to survive with Putin using everything he can to come after you. But all they've done really is wear ski masks and play punk rock songs. Yes.

Starting point is 00:26:53 And so imagine big bad Putin on his stallion just thinking, this is unacceptable, these girls. Using the KGB to go after these girls. I don't know how they're still alive. How do those girls take a sip of coffee without wondering? Well, that's what she told us. She was basically like, anytime she feels even a little dizzy, she's like, oh, have they gotten me? Well, that's not hyperbole. That's real.

Starting point is 00:27:13 I'm just impressed that you were able to afford a million dollars in lawyer fees. Do you know what my dark secret is? I'm really, really good with money. Really? I have two talents. I only have two talents. I'm funny and I'm good with money. In what way are really good with money. Really? I have two talents. I only have two talents. I'm funny and I'm good with money. In what way are you good with money?

Starting point is 00:27:26 Okay, first of all, I'm besties with Suze Orman, the financial guru. I love her. I hate to pick a favorite lesbian because they're all so perfect. But if I had to pick, I'm sorry, gals. I would have to say Suze Orman just has been such an earth angel. And luckily, I was also raised, my mom was just a big budget person. So she taught me how to balance a checkbook when I was 10. And my mom ingrained that into me because I didn't come from money or anything. But when I started making money,

Starting point is 00:27:55 I didn't know what to do and I felt guilty and I gave a lot away. And I didn't think I, I didn't know what to do with this money and I wasted a lot of it. And so, you know, I gave it to people that didn't appreciate it or didn't do anything righteous or worthy with it and all this other stuff. And so I got with Susie and she helped me, she convinced me to pay off my house, which I could afford at the time. And I said, well, my business manager says the mortgage has tax breaks. And she said, look at the field you're in. You have no job security. You're a woman in stand-up comedy.

Starting point is 00:28:30 You are not going to just go from job to job the rest of your life as if you worked in the corporate world. And she said, what would make you feel better, a little tax break or knowing you own this house that you could live in the rest of your life? And I was like, duh. So I paid like, duh. So I paid off the house. And then she just convinced me, just sock your money away. And so all those years, you know, on whether it was Suddenly Susan, NBC show I was on, or all the touring, or all the, I'd done 19 TV specials, 21 in total, including two audio specials.

Starting point is 00:29:05 And I've just been socking it away, socking it away, socking it away for a rainy day. And my rainy day came and it was six years long. So I did not make money for six years. And so thank God I just have been socking it away. I'm a very conservative investor. I'm not a day trader. I don't buy anything and no trendy stocks. I have Susie overlooking all my stuff and she does it just as a love and a friend.

Starting point is 00:29:33 Do you think she'll take us on? Yes, she will. And her mission in life is for women to be better with money. And she makes it comprehend. I know I'm like doing a commercial for Susie Orman, but honestly, she put me on the right track. And I also had my first husband. I don't know if you know about this, but my first husband, well, there was a lot of money missing.

Starting point is 00:29:54 Oh. And I found out for four years, he would wake up earlier than I did, go in my purse, take my two ATM cards, go to the ATM and take out $1,500. But it really added up over years. I know. And so, so Susie- Oh my God. He was socking it away too. Right? He was socking it away too. And so I know I don't have the best luck with husbands, but I'm still not done with cock. Not done with cock. I just want everyone to know cock is still on the table. Still on the table. Just please don't steal my money. Thank you. I have a low,

Starting point is 00:30:31 low bar. Just don't steal from me. This happened to Debbie Reynolds too, right? It's happened to so many women. And I also went on back, this is back in the day, but I went on the Larry King show and talked about it. And I went on The View and talked about it. And I had so many women come up to me because when you're a woman, it's shame-based. First of all, you're not even supposed to be the breadwinner, right? So there's your first mistake. How dare you be the breadwinner? And then to admit that your man is like stealing money from you. Oh my God. So much shame. Are you kidding? How embarrassed am I?

Starting point is 00:31:01 Embarrassing. How embarrassed am I that I didn't even notice and I thought I was good with money? And I gave him my like passwords because he was my husband. Right. And back in the day, we used ATM machines and, you know, I, there were other improprieties, let's just say, but my trust was shot. Did he have an addiction? Like, is that what he was? You know, it's so weird because I confronted him and even my mom and dad confronted him. And I also made him sign a letter of confession so he could never come after me.

Starting point is 00:31:33 Oh, yeah. I took care of business. I also made him confess to five human beings that we both knew. Yeah. Because I was afraid he would try to spin it. Right. Like, I was somehow. You just needed all the witnesses. I did. Yeah. Because I was afraid he would try to spin it. Right. Like I was somehow... You just needed all the witnesses.

Starting point is 00:31:46 I did. I did. And, you know, I'm a little nervous about my current divorce. I'm fearful my current husband will spin something. And so I have anxiety about that. There's nothing to spin, but I'm just saying nothing will shock me anymore. And so to this day, I have that letter of confession in my safe. But I'm actually glad I talked about it publicly because I've had women to this day come up to me and say, yeah, my husband stole money. Did he ever say why? I asked him about it. He just kept saying, oh, just little things here and there, just little things. But I think he was socking it away. I think he was just, and I think he, I have a feeling he like shapeshifted into almost a new person and is probably somebody else's problem now. And I don't know, I have no idea where he is and I don't want to know. After years of fine print contracts and getting ripped off by

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Starting point is 00:35:23 Man, I always think about, you know, obviously there's so much more going on with her now with Wendy Williams, but even just the fact that she was clearly the breadwinner. He had a mistress. They had a baby. He was spoiling her. That guy is a dog. I watched every minute of that and I did her show countless times and she was always fun and a very hard worker. She worked her butt off. And also let's not forget what a groundbreaker she is in radio. That all those years she was doing morning radio long before the breakfast club and she was confronting celebrities and telling it like it was. And then she did. And daytime talk is a grind. I've never done it

Starting point is 00:36:03 full time. I've only like guest hosted, but my friends that have done it full time, you have no life. It is a grind. And to grind out five shows a week. And every time I did that show, it was a party. So she had to keep up that level of like, how you doing? And it's a party and keep up on every hot topic and interview everybody. I mean, everybody cycled through that show, even though her reputation was like, oh, be careful of Wendy. But I didn't find her to be that way at all. I think she's easy because you just have to be honest. You know, she would ask you questions

Starting point is 00:36:34 that were a little tough, but you just answered, you know. I can't even stomach watching the new documentary. It's hard to watch. Yeah. And I admit, I feel a little dirty watching it. But on the other hand, I think historically, it will be reflected upon as a good thing as an education tool. A little bit in the way you were talking about Marc Maron talking about his dad's dementia. Even though seeing Wendy like this, it feels dirty. I think maybe it won't even take another generation, but we're now just hearing about aphasia from Bruce Willis. Yeah. And, you know, dealing with my mom with dementia, having someone, it's like their soul is snatched by invasion of the body snatchers

Starting point is 00:37:18 and watching my mom turn into the polar opposite of who she really was. So I think seeing Wendy like that in some ways will actually be a bit of a, I don't want to use the word comfort, but it'll be something for people to see that are dealing with it in their own lives going, oh, it's not personal when they attack me. Because when my mom would attack me when she had dementia, at first I would just sob and then I had to be I had to learn like oh this isn't Maggie anymore right Maggie has left the building at the very least Wendy Williams will be like an education of sorts yeah and and her legacy is real yes her legacy is legit and it's real of course I do too and I do feel similarly to you because I watched that whole

Starting point is 00:38:01 thing as well and I you feel bad watching it but there's I can't articulate why I feel that it's also like a positive for the world and that she's sharing maybe even not knowing but she's helping the world by she's showing something that's hard to watch but it's out there yeah and I don't know how much of it is alcohol related because in the series, they kind of imply that most of it's alcohol related. And then when it came out is when they said she has aphasia. So I don't know. And I don't think it matters. I mean, it could be 80% alcohol related. It could be 10% alcohol related, but I feel like it's a real cautionary tale. And the good news is you can go on YouTube and see endless clips of the good Wendy and see her shows. And celebrate her.

Starting point is 00:38:51 And see interviews and celebrate her, yeah. Yeah. So is aphasia not linked to alcohol or we don't know? I actually don't know. In fact, I admit I don't know the difference between Alzheimer's, dementia, and aphasia. So you can get aphasia from anything, any type of brain injury, whether it's stroke, you can get it from dementia. There's many other, like there's a lot of neurological things that can cause aphasia. I think in her case, it's hard to tell what came first. I really don't know how I feel about

Starting point is 00:39:20 sharing this take publicly, but when I watched that documentary one of my favorite movies is Sunset Boulevard yeah and I have never seen so such a strong similar resemblance to that character yes resemblance yes like this character it it was yeah just it was like it really affected me watching that and watching her family and how each family member deals with it and her. But I'm just saying from my own experience with many years of doing her show, she was never mean. She was never like, I never showed up at the Wendy Williams show where they were like, oh, she's drunk. Like every time I showed up, it was just Wendy was good to go. And she was going guns blazing and it was always fun and like I said she worked her butt off now how did you cope when your mom because I love your relationship with your mom

Starting point is 00:40:11 Maggie is like Maggie tip it to Maggie tip your box of wine for my mother I like have always looked at that and you guys on camera together and just felt like mother-daughter goals. She was such a natural that Bravo would actually say, we need more of your mom and dad. And that was the best compliment I could have gotten because for them, they didn't even start the show until they were like in their 80s or something, their 70s or something. And I just knew they would pop because I knew my dad was like sort of comedian level funny, but my mom was funny without knowing why. And I was so happy. I feel the same way.

Starting point is 00:40:49 Is that your parents too? Yes, it's a very similar thing. And that's why I feel like you're such a trailblazer in this field. But so how did you cope? Because you bring up that like she would yell at you and you thought you were the problem, but then you realize you're not. Like, how did you cope with that? What was so sad is that Maggie's form of dementia was very fear-based. And it broke my heart to see my little Maggie. She was so scared because her demons were so real.

Starting point is 00:41:17 And so honestly, I'll be honest, I was like all for the place where they just like sedate the shit out of her. Because it's degenerative. There's no, it's hard to reorient like somebody they don't come back they don't come back and so you know where the place where she ended up they they dealt with folks that are in advanced dementia and she had to be in the floor that was locked because she was getting up at four in the morning thinking she and my dad were going for breakfast and my dad was of course dead and so i i mean once again i'm gonna sound flippant but i i would just talk to them being like give her give her meds give her more meds why have her be alert and astute and like sedate the shit out of her why she's by the way she lived to 99 incredible uh really that's my nightmare, okay?

Starting point is 00:42:06 That is my nightmare. I need a suicide pact right now. I swear to God, if I live to 99, I want you two girls to just take me to Malibu, throw me in the ocean. Can we get that on paper? Yes. Let's write it up with Suzy Herman. Write it up. So I've been, it's been two years now, but I was in a decade-long relationship with my last partner.

Starting point is 00:42:28 He is also a comic. His name's Bobby Lee. He's a funny Korean man. And I want to know, like. Yikes. No, I'm just saying. No, dating a comic is really an Olympic sport. A a male comic is an olympic sport i never thought like a death wish 10 years too i love him i love the guy okay i'm just saying a male comic is yeah

Starting point is 00:42:54 it's a different variety hold on can we just take one minute can we just take one minute because i'm not going to say the name i'll'll tell you privately after. But a very famous, well-known, beloved comedian of my generation said to me recently, because I'm back on tour, who's your spotter? Tell the audience what a spotter is for a guy comic. Wait, I literally don't know. I think a spotter is- Am I so old that this- I've heard of it.

Starting point is 00:43:23 Oh, it's a guy who looks for hot girls? Yes. It's a guy who goes, they set up the blowjob before the show, and then they set up the blowjob for after the show. Right. And it's a wristband. And I'm sorry to say there are plenty of girls that are like, yay, what a thrill for me.

Starting point is 00:43:39 And as a feminist, that makes me mad. But I'm laughing at this guy saying to me at my age, who's your spotter? I go, honey, for the ladies and gay guys in my audience? First of all, any guy at my show would be like, love it. Let's go backstage and see my queen. Yes, queen. So no, there's no fucking spotter at the Kathy Griffin show.

Starting point is 00:43:59 But this guy, you know, of course he's married. I go, do you know what female comics do after a show? We go back to the hotel and we have a tuna melt. Yeah. And we watch Below Deck. There's no baying some guy. I go, that would be rape. Like, we'd probably get raped if we just invited a random guy to the hotel room to have sex.

Starting point is 00:44:18 Terrifying. Terrifying. That's actually a sign of progress that you didn't know what a spotter is. Yeah. Or it's just that I'm naive or that they don't include me in these conversations. Do you have one? Just tell us. Do I have one?

Starting point is 00:44:31 Is it her? Yes. I'm not a spotter. She'd be the worst spotter. She'd bring back the weirdest. Who would you bring back? The weirdest. Her and I don't have the same type.

Starting point is 00:44:40 Let's just say that. I mean, I dated Bobby Lee for 10 years. And I love him, but I see myself when I look at Bobby. Right, you are of the same ilk, for sure. So you're not going to give Bobby Lee a wristband so he can go fuck her after the show? I chase uggos. I love ugly men. Okay.

Starting point is 00:44:57 I just wouldn't be a good spotter for anyone because I go for funny, weird types. Right. I like a unique guy, and I like personality first. I like funny shaped also. Funny shaped. Like pear? All types of shapes. All fruits.

Starting point is 00:45:11 Yeah. I just don't like an Adonis. An Adonis is not my type. Right. And they just have innate baggage. Right? Like an Adonis, they come with, it's like a hot chick. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:45:23 Yeah. They come with their, they've been pursued their whole lives. They don't have to put work in. They're probably not great in bed because they're probably like, ah, I'm done. Look at my muscles and my cock. I'm right here. I'm done. You do all the work.

Starting point is 00:45:34 You're on top. You get the sore arms. You do all the work. But how do you get over heartbreak? And how long does it take? When do you actually like come up for air and say, okay. If one more person tells me two years I'm like I don't have

Starting point is 00:45:46 that kind of time. I can't be 65 and walking around worrying about this fucking guy. I'm two years out and there are still moments that hurt me when you know I'm really good friends

Starting point is 00:45:55 with my ex. We still do a show together. So when he tells me stories about like you know who he's dating and that doesn't trigger me. Okay. It's actually when we have sweeter conversations and I remember why we worked for so long or when we're both in emotional

Starting point is 00:46:13 distress and we go back to each other for support. And then I remember this is why he was my best friend. This is why we worked out for so long because we were each other's backbone. See, This is why we worked out for so long because we were each other's backbone. See, that's why I know I cannot be anything with my ex-husband. Not cordial, not friends, not friends in 10 years ever. Because I am just, I am not, I am not lobbying an accusation in any way. I'm just telling you I'm reading a lot about the topic of covert narcissism. And that's all I'm going to say about that because it's a topic I did not understand. And from what I read, not that I was ever with one in any way, of course,

Starting point is 00:46:58 but if a lady was with one, apparently, I don't know anything. I'm just saying from what I read with a narcissist, it's kind of a death knell to even think you can have a cordial relationship. Or I need to start in AA, we talk about living in acceptance. And I start, I just need to go, this is the way it is. You know, maybe he just plain fell out of love with me, which he has the right to do. And that hurts, but that is the way it is. And so for me, I, I hurt the most when I think about our good times. So I need to keep reminding myself of the worst of the names he called me, the pre-show fights. Like I need to remember that stuff. Not that I'm accusing him of any of those things.

Starting point is 00:47:49 I'm randomly talking about a random woman who may have gone through these things. I think for me it's a little different because we really did have such a deep friendship. And there was never any name calling. There was never any like outward abuse. And for someone I have dated, not a covert narcissist, but I found out very recently there's such a thing as a vulnerable narcissist. What? Oh, Jesus. Oh, my God.

Starting point is 00:48:12 I learned it from the book. I gotta buy a new book. Dr. Romany just described this really. Who the fuck's Dr. Romany? Dr. Romany is our goddess. What? We love. She will cover narcissism.

Starting point is 00:48:23 You need her. Christine, my assistant's here. She's writing it on Dr. Romany. Is she your Suzy Orman? We love. She will cover narcissism. You need her. You need her. Christine, my assistant's here. She's writing it on Dr. Romney. Is she your Suze Orman? She is. No, we don't know her. She doesn't know she's my Suze Orman, but she is. Okay.

Starting point is 00:48:32 She is somebody that I've referred to so many times in my life. A vulnerable narcissist. So basically, a vulnerable narcissist is not someone who's going to shut you out. They don't have the overt kind of like narcissistic traits. Like the Trumpian. Right. But you will usually notice this about them, where they tend to always play victim. I didn't get this job because of that. There's never really any like accountability. So the world is happening to them. Nothing in their life is going good because they are always the victim. Gosh, I don't

Starting point is 00:49:03 know anyone like that. But they can be very attuned to your feelings and can present. Bell's going off. Bell's going off. Bell's going off. And I think that's so scary because somebody who is vulnerable in a sense, who's able to talk about their feelings, you don't necessarily associate with narcissism. You shouldn't weaponize vulnerability. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:49:22 It's called mind fuckery. Yeah. Manipulation. My mind is sore. It's called mind fuckery. Yeah. Yeah. Manipulation. My mind is sore. It was fucked so hard. So I will do anything to try to move through this pain. Yeah, to heal. Anything.

Starting point is 00:49:34 Anything. So I'm doing cupping, which I don't even think works. I have scars on my back cupping. And I just do it because, like, it ain't hurting. I know. I'll try anything, too. And I'm like, I don't believe in any of it. No. Like, I'm too much of, back, cupping. And I just do it because, like, it ain't hurting. I know. I'll try anything, too. And I'm like, I don't believe in any of it. Like, I'm too much of, like, a scientist or something.

Starting point is 00:49:50 I'm too much of, like, a pragmatist. Yeah. But it doesn't hurt. The acupuncture may not help, but it doesn't hurt. Like, I'll try it because I don't, this, whatever funk I'm in. The pain is too horrible. Yeah. And, you know, to the, like, whole, like, narcissist like narcissist and like that whole topic I find myself

Starting point is 00:50:08 a lot of times in those experiences that I've had and I obviously like every complex bad relationship I've been in is always a two-way street like I got there I got in it willingly um no I let my husband take over too much of my life. Like that was on me. I love that he took care of everything. Then it, you know, in the divorce, it wasn't so good. He knew every password and all that other stuff. Right. But I admit that's my side of the street is I was like,

Starting point is 00:50:37 I kind of loved it in not a very feminist, independent woman way. No, I talk about this a lot. Like we were talking about this last week where sometimes you just wish you could turn your brain off and like have someone lead and take over so that is so relatable that's like being in your feminine whatever but like for me one thing that comes up when I'm in these kinds of situations is I always ask them like why why did they do this why did they say this why did they hurt me and then I can you not and then I think, and then I've just taught myself,

Starting point is 00:51:06 you're never going to get an answer to that question. And that's okay to not get the closure either. You don't need it from that other person. Closure can be a little bit of a myth. Like closure happens sometimes, but many times in my long life, it just hasn't happened. So that's why like this,

Starting point is 00:51:22 that phrase living in acceptance is I have to go, I'm not going to, I'm not going to get closure with this guy or forgiveness. I'm not like the first husband. I, like I said, I still don't know what he did with that money. Right. I will never know, but it's okay. Cause the good thing is he's away from me, but some things aren't worth like reasoning with, right. There's just, you cannot, I was trying to apply a logic to an illogical situation. Right. And that's a dead end. And I was trying to apply logic to an illogical situation. And that's a dead end. And you're just going to continue to spin and spin and spin. And they're going to just move along.

Starting point is 00:51:51 And I can't even imagine stealing from somebody. Yeah. So it's like I'm trying to figure out this and I would never do it myself. Yeah. That's how I always say. I'm like, I would never do that. Why did they do that? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:52:00 And then it's like. And you're on the spin cycle. But you're projecting your own morality and goodness and hoping that that person somehow like embodies that and oftentimes they don't it's not their thing it's just not it's just not their thing and they have their own side of a story that i will never understand and whatever yes and look i was no angel so wherever my ex is and i do mean wherever, cha-ching. No, but wherever he is, he's got his own story and I understand that. So when you're asking me how to get through heartbreak, I am just throwing everything. I'm doing breathwork classes. Being on the road is tremendously therapeutic. I thank

Starting point is 00:52:41 God for this tour, every single city. And my friends have been amazing. I brought a girlfriend as my babysitter on every leg of the tour so far. And it's so much fun. So like when I was in the Kansas City area, I flew in one of my sober sisters from AA from New York and we met up at the hotel and we'd have like a coffee clutch every morning and she would come backstage during the show and she'd be like, okay, I went outside. So tonight's audience is 40% gay guys, 10% straight couples. And you know, like she would just, it was just fun. So that I'm a big advocate of that. And I got to say, my girlfriends have risen to the occasion. Like, cause after the Trump thing, I had to reassess all my friendships because so

Starting point is 00:53:25 many of my friends ditched me. So after really after getting sober, I've kind of curated like real girlfriends and oh my God, they are keeping me going. Went to Jane Fonda's. I used the bat phone. I used the bat phone and I called her and I was sobbing and she calls me KG and I go, it's KG. And I spilled the story and she was like, come over. And I went overbing. And she calls me KG. And I go, it's KG. And I spilled the story. And she was like, come over. And I went over. And we were doing breathing. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:53:50 You know Jane Fonda? I just went to her house. So no share. I was just. I've been doing her workout since I was eight years old. She is beyond amazing. She's beyond what you would hope. Like she really is that person.

Starting point is 00:54:05 And she's so smart. And she talked to me would hope. Like she really is that person. And she's so smart. And she talked to me about her, you know, famous love affairs. Because I wanted to go talk to somebody who had been through the fire. And I walked in and I was sobbing. And she was like, breathe, breathe. And she's hugging me. And I was so grateful just for her knowledge and her company. And the very next Saturday night,

Starting point is 00:54:25 I used the bad phone for Sharon Stone. Honey, good old Stoney. You've just got the icons on the bad phone. I have the icons. And look, I don't abuse them. But when it's hardcore and Stoney's like, come on over. And so I go over. Yeah, good old Stoney. And I go over and she was telling me and she's so funny she's like let me tell you what this is all about it's all about dick size I do through hell with guys it's when you it's when their dicks don't feel big that's why I don't care if this guy had a big dick or not something about your brain made his dick not feel big and I was with this guy turns out he didn't feel like he had a big dick he did but turns out because I'm Sharon Stone he

Starting point is 00:55:02 felt like he didn't have a big dick it's's all about dick size. And I've been laughing just thinking about, she literally whittled down every single romantic problem that I've had since I have been like well-known and had money to dick size. And she might be on to something. I kind of love that theory. And I don't mean actual dick size. It's not even actual dick size. It's how they perceive it. It's how they perceive. How you make them feel. Right. And I just, how many guys have said to me like, I like you, but I don't want to be Mr. Griffin. Like, I've heard that my whole adult life. I know.

Starting point is 00:55:29 Isn't it a bummer? It is. It's a bummer. But then I think of, like, well, good on them for knowing because I look at the Wendy Williams thing and I'm like, this guy was emasculated by her. And so he had to go create his own masculine life. And had a baby and then had a mistress in one of her houses that she bought are you kidding me like i also like my friend bob odenkirk there's a good name for you better call sol his wife is his manager yeah so when it's the gender reversals

Starting point is 00:55:56 i've seen it work many times but honestly i was this is okay i know i'm topic switching but that's look you could i can make all the taylor swift jokes i want and i'm happy to i'm actually not i'm terrified of the swifties as we all should be as we should be they're a force to be reckoned with but one thing one thing that i really love is i can't think of a time and i do know the divas i do know share and stevie nicks i can't think of a time when there's been a guy that actually was cheering on her. And the fact that he is literally the football star, like the most, I guess, classically toxic masculine, I don't know the guy, I'm sure he's a sweet guy, but

Starting point is 00:56:37 like to see him pumping his fist at her shows. And exchanging friendship bracelets with her fans. It's like, it's, I don't think it's ever been done in the history of female pop music. And that's one thing that I think she is a real change agent. And it makes me sad that Stevie Nicks and Cher never had that. And I think of Cher and her famous relationships, and it was always, oh, he's Mr. Cher. And I hope that this Taylor Kelsey thing

Starting point is 00:57:07 is a change. And I hope that more female comics and actresses and pop stars will have men that do what the women have been doing forever. In fact, my ex was my tour manager. I know and so that that was also I probably shouldn't have let us become so enmeshed but I also think no offense that's a pretty cool career like he's he's settled shows at the Sydney Opera House and Radio City Music Hall no offense but being Kathy Griffin's tour manager is like not a bad gig no because I get to play some of the greatest venues in the freaking world. Yeah. And I tour constantly. It's a hugely successful gig.

Starting point is 00:57:50 It's a nice gig. And so it may, like one of the things that just makes me sad about my divorce is like, oh, it's another case where the woman was the one in the spotlight. Is that him on a train? Because maybe he's on a train somewhere. It's right behind us. Can you stop that train? Yeah, I'll go.

Starting point is 00:58:08 I just need to check for bodies. We found him. No, I'm kidding. And so that's one thing that I think is a positive thing about Taylor Swift. And I hope more people are aware that it's, I don't think it's ever happened before. As a self-proclaimed pop female historian, whatever I am, that you just made such an amazing assessment of our culture. And like, you are so right that that is a huge shift because I'll never forget in one of like Britney's MTV docs where her and Madonna were sitting there and Madonna's like,

Starting point is 00:58:40 marriage just isn't for girls like us. And it's like, I get where they're coming from. And it's so nice that there is this shift. And it's not because the girls are the breadwinner or busy. It's because it's kind of Stoney's thing where they can't find the guy who thinks his dick is big enough. And Britney's a perfect example. We never saw, certainly not Justin Timberlake, who I'm not speaking to, but we never saw a guy, a football hero or an actor, look, she dated Colin Farrell, why wasn't he fist pumping

Starting point is 00:59:10 at her shows? But Britney never got that, and so I really hope Taylor Swift is the start of more women seeing that that's possible. And entertainment, because it's visible and we get to see it. And Travis for setting the example for other men to do the show.

Starting point is 00:59:25 Because he's so secure. By the way, as he should, which is like, what else is he doing? He just retired and he's going to go pump his fist at her show and her fans love it. And I'm sure she feels supported like she never has by a boyfriend,

Starting point is 00:59:39 not like freaking Harry Styles or whatever. On the flip side though, you still have men like Kiki Palmer's baby daddy and Simone Biles' husband, even though they seem to be doing just fine, where they think they are the prize in their relationship. And that really, really bothers me. Because Simone Biles is a goat.

Starting point is 01:00:00 I mean, the fact that he said he didn't know who she was. Okay. And he claims he didn't know who she was when they first matched. Real Cambridge alumni there. I know. I'm like, how can you be? And he's an athlete himself. I'm like, how can you be an athlete in America and not know who Simone Biles is?

Starting point is 01:00:19 Right. And also, who's cooler than Keke Palmer? Nobody. Truly. Right? Nobody. Like, stop complaining, Mr. Lucky. You're just chairman of the fucking Lucky Club.

Starting point is 01:00:28 And just say thank you, and I'm sure your dick is just fine. I'm sure it's the right size. Don't make me show it to Sharon Stone. I'm sure it's perfect. But yeah, that's one of the things that I really I want to see change in my freaking lifetime because it's, you know, I was good friends with

Starting point is 01:00:43 Joan Rivers, and she was good friends with Phyllis Diller before her, who was good friends with Moms Mabley before her. And all these women talked about it. It's just the guy situation when you're a female in entertainment, it's still very stigmatized in my opinion. I absolutely agree. We see it. We live it. Like, yes. We see it.

Starting point is 01:01:01 We live it. Like, yes. Like, it's not sexy for a guy to be in the back of a comedy club watching you, but it's sexy for a girl to be in the back of a comedy club watching a guy. It should be sexy. It should be sexy. The funny chicks are sexy. Even as a producer, this happens to me.

Starting point is 01:01:21 Like, guys are not interested because I'm, like, successful and all this stuff. It's the same thing even for me. A threat, right? What? A threat, right? Yeah, a threat. A threat. I have to always, I never save my salary. What would Stoney say, Stella? She said she has to play down her salary. I've been there. Yeah, that's interesting because I find being, you know, having been single for two years, I have a partner now, but that is something that I would never disclose was money. And I feel as though

Starting point is 01:01:45 with men, it's almost one of the first flexes. Like the first thing they do flex is how much they have. And as a girl, you are overly conscious about making sure you downplay that part of who you are. Yeah. It's one time. The first house I bought was in the late 90s. It's the one Susie convinced me to pay outright. And she said, by the way, Susie Orman also says, if you cannot buy a house cash, you can't afford it. So she's hardcore. That's controversial. I understand. But she's just trying to keep women from having mortgages. But I do, I get it. But I will say, I bought my last house cash because I was like- Very Chinese of you.

Starting point is 01:02:27 You know, I'm living in acceptance. And it just makes me feel good that it's paid off. Because like I said, I've been out of work for six years. Trump could get reelected and I could be out of work for another four years. So I just want a nice place to stay with my dogs. But wait, what were we talking about before before about um was it salaries salaries yeah playing down salary yeah it's so funny I it doesn't even occur to me to like to expect a guy to have money I don't know why I know I've dated a lot of barbacks you know every barback and you've known in LA. Wait, what is your type? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:03:07 My type is guys who like me. Same. It's a low bar. No, I just want to be with a guy who's nice and just doesn't have that gender politics issue that I've just run into over and over again. Yeah, the gender politics. And they're out there. They are out there.

Starting point is 01:03:20 I hope so. I think to offset, my new strategy is to offset the fact that potentially a lot of the men that I'll meet will not be making as much as me. They need to have a set of skills that I don't have. They need to know how to hunt. They need to know how to build. They need to know how to provide in all of the analog ways.

Starting point is 01:03:40 I'm sorry. Let's just stop with the hunting. What are we, in Wasilla, Alaska? Are you having deer tonight for dinner? Because I'm thinking like post-apocalyptic. It's like, what can you bring to the table that I'm not able to provide? It's like, okay, maybe I will be the breadwinner. Of course he needs to have a stable job. But he has to have a bow and arrow to get dinner. The guy I'm with now has a bow. He's, but he's a perfect mix. Well, he has to have an arrow. If he just has a bow, it's really not going to feed you dinner.

Starting point is 01:04:07 He has an arrow. He has a couple arrows. Okay, okay, okay. But you know what? It always comes down to how do they feel about themselves. Yes. But that's it. And that's the part you can't control.

Starting point is 01:04:13 And that's what's so frustrating. You can't love them into being cool with it. And I thought I could love this guy into going, this is my life. It's a great life. We are on the road together. We laugh together. And I was wrong. It just wasn't where his head is. I would love a housewife husband that I love, like a house daddy. Yes. Maybe though, don't call him a housewife. I mean, that's probably not a good opener, but I'm just saying, but I do like that I have more and more friends that are having kids where the guy is happy to be the dad.

Starting point is 01:04:52 Yes. And that's not emasculating. Like for some reason, if it wasn't for the kids, they wouldn't be okay with the gender, the disparity in income. But thank God, a lot of men now are better about going, okay, you go make the money. You go get the insurance. I'm going to hold down the fort, but I'm really going to like raise these kids for real. You know, my mom was the breadwinner and it like, I see that as like the norm. Who pays the bills? I mean, who like did the bills? Uh, my dad. Yeah. See, that's interesting. My dad was the breadwinner, but my mom did like technically did the bills and that's

Starting point is 01:05:28 just the way it was. But I feel like those things should be divided now in a way where we should be rewriting all the rules on that. Yeah. So I think for me is. All right. So you want a hunter, a gatherer? So I have the partner I have now.

Starting point is 01:05:40 One of the greatest things he ever said was like when I did finally open up to him and said, hey, like I don't like do you feel like you could potentially be emasculated in this situation because I do make like more than you. And he was like, if my masculinity hinged on a number financially, like I'd be like what kind of human would I be? Right. That's what I think is a shocking that doesn't occur to these guys. Yeah. He's like my value, Kalilah, is so much more than, but he has a good job. It's just doesn't, you know, it's just not as much as mine. But I found that to be so refreshing because he was like, there's absolutely no, like there's nothing there that makes me feel as though like you, like I feel any less of a man around you. You know who's like that too is, you know, Nick Offerman is married to Megan Muller. Yes.

Starting point is 01:06:29 And when I first met Meg, Nick was, you know, Nick was a struggling actor and it was like years until Nick really got discovered. And I never saw a guy as cool with himself as Nick Offerman was. And Meg was, she's still famous, but the first go around of Will and Grace, the four of them could like barely walk down the street. They were so famous. And I, I knew them both then. And he was always, he would hold her bag while she took pictures and he was there for her. And I remember she and I went to see him in some little teeny play and he was obviously wildly talented. And he is like maybe the only example I've seen with like a woman who was that famous,

Starting point is 01:07:12 that much the breadwinner. And he just was like doing his thing, enacting classes and waiting for his break. Had a passion. And his break came and now he's sort of the more famous one, you know, a passion. And his break came and now he's sort of the more famous one, you know, and she loves it. I'm so glad we're stumbling into this because it's, you were like, we're, it's not about money. It's about how the man feels about himself. And like, so that to me, I feel better about like that sending that message to men listening. Cause we do have a lot of male listeners. Like it's about you and how you feel and you can be feeling your masculine no matter what. Yeah, I think there are many ways to feel secure in your masculine outside of just a figure. Outside of just money.

Starting point is 01:07:54 I would also like to say I think it's hotter to be okay with Nick Offerman to hold the purse. So hot. Oh, so hot. So hot. Yeah. Like I'm attracted to Travis Kelsey and I don't, never would be. So hot. Oh, so hot. So hot. It's so hot. Yeah. Like, I'm attracted to Travis Kelsey, and I don't, never would be. Me too.

Starting point is 01:08:09 But I have little heart emojis now just thinking about him. Yeah. Because I'm going to see Madonna tonight. Never has Madonna had that. Never has Madonna, with all her famous love affairs, had some guy in the front row

Starting point is 01:08:22 fist pumping and cheering her on and saying, I'm proud to be with Madonna. You know, we're photographed together. You never that for her, right? No. I don't think so. I don't think so either.

Starting point is 01:08:31 I'm going next Monday. I don't know her. I've never met her. You're going Monday? Yeah. If I can. I'm way too pregnant. Probably it's not safe.

Starting point is 01:08:37 They're going to turn you away at the door? Yeah, for being too pregnant. Wait. Do you know Madonna? No, I've never met her. What? I know. That makes no sense. I know. I feel like that's- I'm going, you want to know who I'm going with? Yes. Sia. I love Sia. I do know Sia. I know it right when you said it. That is another flex of mine. Tell

Starting point is 01:08:56 her I said hello. I love her. I love her so deeply. It's ridiculous. I've heard really good things about this tour. Yeah. And I've just been watching clips on TikTok. Yeah. And for her to be 65 years old and still be doing the choreography of when those songs came out is insane. And I read a lot of the ageist comments and I get so mad. I'm like, you guys, did it ever occur to you to twist your thinking from why is she doing this at 65 to, oh, it's never been done.

Starting point is 01:09:25 It's so cool. This is so beautiful. This is so good for the culture, for women to inspire us. I'm still doing it. Why should she stop? Why? Because some guy on a TikTok comment thinks she's old. She's 65.

Starting point is 01:09:38 She's not lying. She's not saying, hi, everybody. I'm 30. Surprise, holiday. And so I love that she's doing it. And I think she might be doing it to break another barrier. But I would like it if there was some guy fist pumping and cheering her on. I agree. I know that really came up for me. Or girl. Or girl. Yeah. But when like bringing up the Travis Kelsey thing, I'm just like, yeah,

Starting point is 01:10:00 our pop queens over the years deserve better. And I'm glad there's that example out there. So we now know as a culture. So much of like just pop queens in general, though, have such a large, like gay fan base. And I know that the gay community has really rallied and supported you over the years. What does that mean for you? You know, it's an organic relationship. You know, I was that kid in first grade that somehow found the gay kid and we became friends. Like, it's just been going on forever where we've been attracted, like, to each other. And, you know, my LGBTQ fans are, like, I joke and say they're like country fans because they stay with you forever. Like, country music fans don't ever ditch their idols.

Starting point is 01:10:47 And they certainly were not turned off by the Trump picture. They were like, yawn, whatever. Another day at the office. And I just thank God because it's that support that is so important. I have a lot of time left, but I wanted to ask you because you've been so intimately a part of reality tv for a very long time um and recently i came across an article of leah mcsweeney um suing bravo about just the work environment and like the quote-unquote toxic culture of that um in your experience do you feel as though like reality tv producers sort of like support the narrative in their head and sort of coax people in reality TV to like act a certain way? Or do you think it's improved in the last like decade?

Starting point is 01:11:34 Well, I don't know because my show is a decade old now, but I absolutely think that producers and networks and the streamers and the networks and the people that sign the checks. I absolutely think, and I've heard from many, many reality people, because I know a lot of them, that they plow them with alcohol, that they very much encourage having another drink. I've spoken to housewives that have had producers say, if there's not a fight every episode, we're going to let you go. So I believe this person who told me that. And my show was different because my show luckily was comedically driven. And my parents didn't need any encouragement to drink. And so that just kind of happened organically with the box of Franzia. But I do. And I think it's another area that's time has come. I think that there are these housewives, I've known so many of them where their lives are ruined. They're getting DUIs, they're going to jail, they're going to prison. There's these girls on The Bachelor that can't get jobs because they got drunk on the very first night and they probably weren't eating because they wanted to look skinny in their formal dress. Like, I know the whole drill and I've seen it. And I think it's time has come. And I think

Starting point is 01:12:51 the problem is the mandate comes from probably as high as you can imagine, like I said, who's ever signing the checks ultimately. But the other thing is there is still a thirst from the audience to see that kind of behavior. So it's a bit of the almost like we were talking about Wendy Williams. Like it's almost like, okay, we've seen Wendy in this state. We don't need to see any more. And I feel like we've really seen enough reality people vomit, fall down and hurt themselves, go to the hospital, you know, legal trouble. I mean, the one woman on Beverly Hills where the guy hung himself, like, you gotta. Legal trouble, like you said. I mean, the one woman on Beverly Hills where the guy hung himself, like, you gotta be kidding me. And it was very soon after it was revealed that

Starting point is 01:13:31 he was allegedly physically abusing her. You know, that stuff's real. And so I think it's important that as we're watching these shows, just to be conscious of the fact that probably a lot of these people that are behaving this way probably weren't this way or were encouraged to drink a lot. I don't know about drug stuff because I was a pill girl, but I don't know if anybody was like handing out pills, but I certainly know that reality producers push for the most abhorrent behavior. And it's turned into so different than when I started because when I started, it was like Osbournes and Nick and Jessica. I know where they were. And they were so innocent.

Starting point is 01:14:15 I feel like that was just golden era. And it was actually real. It was just dark. My show was really unscripted. I know. Kardashians has soft script. The Hills is soft scripted. It changed right after my show.

Starting point is 01:14:29 And I really miss real reality television because it's good enough. You don't have to plow these people with alcohol and drugs and hope they get wasted and get a DUI. Because they don't help you once you're in trouble. That chick from Salt Lake City is in prison and, you know, nobody's helping her from Bravo. And yet it was the whole storyline. Well, she also was convicted of felony fraud. They probably encouraged them to come and get her on camera.

Starting point is 01:14:57 I mean, well, I think about Joe Guadice in season one of New York paying the contractors with hundreds and literally doing the make it rain gesture. And then he got deported. Yeah. Is he still in Italy? I don't know if he's back, but that guy was deported. He was in prison and then deported.

Starting point is 01:15:16 And Teresa went to prison, not jail. Right, right. And Jen Shaw is in federal prison. And Erika Jayne is in real litigation trouble and has eight lawsuits, according to the LA Times. And that is, you can't afford those designer clothes and still defend yourself. Take it from me. I know. I'm an expert in litigation now. I want to pitch something to American reality TV in general. My favorite reality show ever is a Japanese one called Terrace House. And they just follow six young Japanese kids

Starting point is 01:15:46 living in one house, kind of like the real world, but they do not get in the way. These kids still go to work and nothing happens. There's almost like a quiet voyeurism. But it's compelling. I've watched every single season and you just let things happen naturally. There's no intrusion. There's no getting in there trying to like spin a narrative. They don't have to. That's what makes me sad is having done a reality show that was successful. You don't have to do anything but trust in the people and the casting. And casting is everything.

Starting point is 01:16:19 And I love watching real reality shows. I'm such a docu-series fanatic. Me too. You have to like pay me to watch a scripted show because, well, first of all, like Twin Flames and all the cult docs don't even start. Oh God, the Twin Flames. Is anything more interesting than real people? And I don't think they manipulated Twin Flames. I mean, they're still up and running, making a lot of money. Yeah. So yeah, you're right. That's the pitch to reality producers and the buyers, the streamers, the networks. Just trust in these people that they're going to be interesting enough and trust in the premise and keep it simple and let real people be real.

Starting point is 01:17:06 comic peers or friends, like who, who would you like on, you know, if you guys scheduled everything right, like who'd be at dinner, the dinner party, like obviously it was Joan Rivers. Joan Rivers, Wanda Sykes, Chelsea Handler, Whitney Cummings, um, all of them, but Ellen, I can't resist. I never, I, I never miss an opportunity. I never miss an opportunity. Gosh. Well, Kathy, thank you so much. Like this is a love fest. No, this is love. We love you. You are very nervous. We were very, we are very much in awe of you. I've been a long time fan with my beauty. Thank you so much for doing this. It means a lot to us. And I can't wait to catch a show on the, my life, my life on the PTSD list tour. Go to kathygriffin.com. Yes. Oh my God. I can't wait for catch a show on the My Life on the PTSD list tour.

Starting point is 01:17:45 Go to kathygriffin.com. Yes. Oh, my God. I can't wait for that. Thank you, Kathy. Thank you, ladies. We'll see you guys next week with a brand new episode. Thanks for tuning in, slugs.

Trash Tuesday w/ Esther Povitsky & Khalyla Kuhn - Kathy Griffin's Life on the PTSD List

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