Trash Tuesday w/ Esther Povitsky & Khalyla Kuhn - The Crime of Italian Prison Food w/ Amanda Knox

Episode Date: May 30, 2023

Thank you to our Sponsors: BetterHelp - Visit our sponsor https://betterHelp.com/trashtuesday today to get 10% off your first month.Rocket Money - Cancel unwanted subscriptions and manage your expenses the easy way by going to https://rocketMoney.com/trashtuesday More Amanda KnoxLabyrinths Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/labyrinths-getting-lost-with-amanda-knox/id1494368441Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/amamaknox/Twitter: https://twitter.com/amandaknoxGood For You Podcast w/ Whitney Cummings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlqDkhtC838This Past Weekend Podcast w/ Theo Von: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fjWlB75XQo Subscribe! https://bit.ly/HitOurButtonsOfficial Clips Channel: https://bit.ly/2QDAi8XTrash Tuesday Podcast iTunes Audio Feed: https://bit.ly/TrashTuesdayPodTrash Tuesday Podcast Spotify Audio Feed: https://bit.ly/TTPodAudioTrash Tuesday Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/itstrashtuesday 0:00 The Menu and Iron Chef3:08 Khalyla’s Button Mashing & Fan Smashing8:29 Amanda Knox’s Weird Fan Mail& Being Sexualized14:40 Being Headline News at 20 Years Old19:14 Amanda Knox Weights In on Khalyla’s Fan Interaction26:00 Amanda’s Sentencing & Struggle With Being Herself Afterward31:54 The Tragedy of Amanda Knox’s Roommate 34:51 How Amanda Met Her Husband37:27 Did Amanda Knox Ever Think of Changing Her Name?41:19 The Four Years Amanda Spent in an Italian Prison52:42 The Feeling of Not Being Believed 54:46 Italian Prison Food 59:58 The Roast of Whitney Cummings1:05:30 Life After Amanda Got Out of Prison1:08:13 Amanda’s Labyrinths Podcast Listen to our other Podcasts: TigerBelly - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tigerbelly/id1041201977 My Pleasure - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/my-pleasure/id1494518220 AnnieWood - https://www.youtube.com/annielederman Follow Us: Khalyla Kuhn - https://www.instagram.com/khalamityk Annie Lederman - https://www.instagram.com/annielederman Esther Povitsky - https://www.instagram.com/esthermonster Produced by: 7EQUIS Podcast Producers: Pete Forthun & Andres Rosende

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offer and your new three-month unlimited wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to mintmobile.com slash Tuesday. That's mintmobile.com slash Tuesday. Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com slash Tuesday. $45 upfront payment required equivalent to $15 a month. New customers on first three-month plan only. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes. On unlimited plan, additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. I watched the menu. I wish you were in the menu got chopped up i would be the s'mores i would happily die as s'mores which part would you be the crusty little cracker wait no one you guys weren't obsessed with iron chef i liked iron chef i like there's a there's a Iron Giant I did like the Iron Giant I do love the Iron Giant that movie is so scary the fact that you guys loved it

scary it's sad it made me cry sad is scary sad is scary when you're a small person every movie is sad though every movie when you're little

is sad everyone's parents die yeah why do they do that it's really f***ed up are they preparing us yes I think that's how they teach kids. For the age we're at.

For the age we're at now. But an Iron Chef, they would introduce a certain ingredient, which would be a surprise to the competing chefs. So, like, for example, you know, and then it would be some, like, guy announcing the ingredient that they would have to incorporate into their dishes. It would be like, pizza dough their dishes it would be like pizza dough and it would be like that's how that's how he said it he would announce it like that and it was so exciting it was like most of my 20s was just like iron chef and what did they make with pizza dough no you're not allowed to do it she's half asian yeah it's a japanese guy japanese i just thought he was like Japanese. I just thought he was like. But wait.

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Find more balance with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash Trash Tuesday today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Trash Tuesday. Stop throwing your money away. Cancel unwanted subscriptions and manage your expenses the easy way by going to RocketMoney.com slash Trash Tuesday. Stop throwing your money away. Cancel unwanted subscriptions and manage your expenses the easy way by going to rocketmoney.com slash trash Tuesday. That's rocketmoney.com slash trash Tuesday. rocketmoney.com slash trash Tuesday. Hi slugs. I am back on the road with my standup and I cannot wait to see you guys. June 3rd, I'll be in Atlanta. That's so soon. June 4th in Raleigh. And then I'm coming to New York City, D.C., Boston,

Madison, Chicago and Detroit. Get tickets at EstherOnIce.com. Yo, what up? I'm back. I'm here. I'm very excited to be on the road performing comedy, doing fun meet and greets with you guys and selling new merch. You can come see me. I'm a Goobies in Baltimore, June 2nd and June 3rd. I'm going to be in Salt Lake City, Utah at Wise Guys Comedy Club with Josh Potter, June 9th and 10th. I'm going to be in San Antonio, Texas, June 23rd and 24th. In August, I'll be in Philadelphia at the Punchline, the 11th and 12th. I'm going to be at the Calgary Great Outdoors Comedy Festival with Andrew Schultz, August 27th. I'm going to be in Austin, Texas at the Vulcan Gas Company, October 6th and 7th.

I also have a lot of other dates going up in San Francisco, San Jose, and a lot of other very cool places. So go to AnnieLederman.com slash shows for that. And every Thursday, you can come hang out with me and Todd and any crazy guest that we pick up at Annie Wood. That's every Thursday at 9 a.m. PST. We go live doing a live chat. So come hang out with us on YouTube.

See you there. You guys, I terrorized my clitoris on Monday. What kind of a sentence is that? I just can't touch it for, I think I'm banning myself from masturbating for. Do you ever have it too where it's like all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, my pussy's like raw. Like it's not even just my clit. It's like my whole, I'm like, this is like, it's in a different, I repositioned it.

I raw, I am, I'm raw. I don't know what the fuck I, some, I don't know what happened, but, um, I'm out the game for the next two weeks. I wrote too hard on myself too often are you going to be able to not do it? yeah no no I have good self control

wait so you had it was FaceTime sex? the first one was FaceTime sex with a very cute boy Esther I heard that you fucked a fan I heard that I also want to let you know I'm a fan

I heard that there was one lucky let you know I'm a fan I heard that there was one lucky contestant out there there might have been yeah which I just want to say props to you Esther have you ever done that had a fan

well it's like guys have sex with their fans and it's so different so when a girl does it I'm like I want to shout it from the rooftops I think that rules I will say that it exceeded all my expectations yeah the sex was great the makeout was great he was hot he was like really caring and doting he is like literally perfect oh my god

so one lucky man a ticket buyer he pays for tickets i'm like and you pay full price there's no guest list so you didn't know when you buy a ticket you don't know what that could lead to oh god esther what are you setting us up for oh yeah wait well it happened yeah well no that's not how we met the world we met in a more casual way it was so not casual any don't even give any more information don't give more information no you cannot participate in this conversation i don't know i don't know what she's talking about your band but how like because usually you're like okay this is a bad idea but it wasn't you guys it was not not a tiny bit not a freaking morsel of regret in me wow and she's getting all fresh and i'm still horny for him to be on a level two where you

can do facetime sex like you know like that's like a wait isn't that like a almost like a higher tier of intimacy to be willing to do facetime sex i believe knowing that they're screen recording it no oh my god no wait can i i'm gonna ask i didn't think about that dude because i straight up put the lens right into my fucking pussy hole like it was grotesque and like i was things were spread open lips were pulled apart assholes were exposed how many holes i need to get on my computer esther's to get some more directing to do i pulled the lip a little further this way now i'm gonna ask a prying question yeah you don't have to answer was this fan the one that sent a letter to your merch person or whatever oh god no remember when she was like i love this i was like kalilah

the hope you're giving to the letter writer there was a person who sent um a love letter to our merch people obviously not our merch people obviously not it's coming but it's coming conversations it was like can you please like let kal that, you know, but they sent it to the merch guy, like, the person who does all of, like, our orders and stuff. And I read it and it was really sweet, but also, no, that's not what it was. Can you imagine? You just sent a picture of your pussy back with the lips. You're like, there's a little much. Wait, is this, I mean, like, is this, like, what do you call it when you fuck someone in the workplace?

Like, fraternization, but the opposite of that. But, like, is this illegal what I'm doing? No. Illegal? Illegal? How old is he? He's my age. He's my age.

There's no illegal. It's not illegal, right? Is it, like, not cool? You think it's, like, a power struggle? No, because he obviously already like likes me so i'm i it's maybe a disadvantageous for him wait can we talk about i'm wearing the same shirt i was wearing on the fucking episode i want to talk about how i think it requires a more intimate wouldn't it be a little bit like higher tier of intimacy to have facetime sex with todd yes but wouldn't it be higher intimacy if i

was wearing a different shirt you guys talk to each other i'm changing my shirt wait so you're you're saying you fraternized with someone that had a prior association yeah am i taking advantage of a situation no because men have sex with their fans every night after shows and you oh it's like and men have the higher level of power i think yeah and i but i did my thing is like i'm coming in already knowing he likes me that's there's nothing law to do with that no nothing you didn't i think i mean i'm not ben franklin but i feel like you're good thank god thank god then i'm not then i'm not ashamed to say it i have fucked a fan and more than just that everything oh my god our guest is here

so enough about us our guest has joined us welcome am, Amanda Knox. Hello. Or as the headlines call her, Foxy Knoxie. Is that triggering? I mean, it's just so sad how it got appropriated because I got that nickname from my soccer teammates. So it was like a girls thing. Yeah. And then it became. No, no, no. Thank God. No, no. My coach was great.

He was like a military, just crazy guy who ran us until we threw up but he never ever did anything weird and sexy at us which is fantastic i know i'm so grateful for those two to three teachers the ones that actually like did their job yeah well you know you're right because i had a friend friend who dated the high school soccer coach. And she was 15 and he was in his, he was hot. They're always hot. Yeah, they're always really hot. They're always hot and they always run with you.

Yeah. And you kind of like it how they boss you around, you know? My swim coaches were all. They punish you a little bit. I know. Why are the swim coaches, why are they coaching us in Speedos? Why are they? No, no, no. Swim coaches are never hot. They never hot my swim coach yes he i loved my swim coach his name was joe jackson i

know that sounds like it was a different joe jackson but his name was also joe jackson and he wore these like rainbow suspenders and he always had like a lollipop and a like a bucket he was raving he was all the time always on molly his ecstasy back up but he died he had like a heart attack while he was driving and his daughter like the whole thing i'm like i quit swimming that's why no i got great beautiful story well i'm trying to lead us into a little trauma. You know what I mean? Before you got here, we were deliberating on whether or not it was okay that I recently had sex with a fan. Oh, that's interesting.

So I just got out of a 10-year relationship. And my last sexual encounter was with someone who was initially a fan, which grew into a friendship, which then grew into which then became my my lover, basically. Wait, have you had sex with a fan? Yeah. Did you get people like trying to fuck you while you're in prison? Yeah. No, there were a lot of people who sent me some really weird shit. And when I was in prison, so like either they had photoshopped my head onto like

some naked woman you were the og uh ai porn i mean oh my god there's i mean i'm not the og i'm sure lots of other women were before me but yeah no i got plenty of people who like straight up photoshop then printed it out because that's how you had to send it to me and then wanted me to sign it and send it back to them i also had people send me things like underwear and bras that they wanted me to sign and send back to them really people just asking me for my underwear so what do you think people it's just like you were pretty and they had like a fetish for someone accused of murder um i think i think the whole i think a fetish is a little bit of, actually, no, I want to remove the word fetish because like, it's a bad word. Like it's, I think people's fetishes are their own business and they're totally fine. But like, I do think that like fantasy played a big part in how I was particularly vilified and i feel like the way that like to give you an example one of the ways that like very early on the detectives who were investigating the case like they were asked in

these interviews it's like this big all of a sudden this big case and they had just arrested me and they were like how did you know it was this girl next door and they were like she smelled like sex and it was like wow okay so first of all when were you ever near me enough to get a whiff, first of all? And second of all, I think you're projecting maybe just a little bit. vibes about me very early on and they didn't know where to attribute them and i i get i get some i have some feelings that like potentially what was happening was there was some fantasy projection in a tragic context and that just got all mixed up yeah was any part of you like oh i didn't realize i was pretty um i again like it's it all feels super fucking fake to me like i feel like the the image of me of being this like hyper sexualized person was not even accurate i feel like the entire thing was so incredibly exaggerated that it never I never actually felt like anyone was really talking about me. Right.

They were talking about an idea of a person that had nothing to do with me that just happened to have my face and my name. And so like, no, I was never flattered. Wait, that is that is wild. Esther, you had some jealousies right well i was just wondering like what would you say what would you say to someone like was there any excitement of like being so famous so fast and like also in the context of being pretty wait that's what you were jealous at that time no i've just okay after like your case i would sort of like in my head make jokes about like how i thought that like the only way

i could ever be really famous like and be beautiful as if i was accused of murder and but you know you didn't need to be because eileen warnos they did a whole movie about her who's that a monster would they had charlize there and play her but in real life she you how can you not know monster no i know monster but i guess i don't know like energy drink i'm gonna switch the subject um but back to your question about getting famous really fast was there any did you feel any sort of like little i am literally like headline news in the world holy shit um can i ask how old you are you don't want to know you don't want to know i'm 35 oh. Oh, you're 35. Yes. Shit. Okay. We're the same age. That's why it's like we were the same age at this time that this happened.

And like, so how old were you when this happened? I was 20. Okay. So I was also 20. So young and barely. A person. Forming your life. And then you were going to be in there forever?

I was. So they were asking for life imprisonment and I ended up getting sentenced to 26 years. Holy shit. That is just scary as shit. And you're just like, what the fuck? Yes, exactly. Yeah, you're like, are you fucking kidding me? Yeah.

So to answer your question, and then so we can get back to your question, because you're dealing with a potential ethical crisis to get back to your question um fame was not anything that i was remotely thinking about at the time i was like stuck in a prison cell and i was not even fully like aware somebody's gonna ask the the like lame questions she's representing gen z for us that's why i asked the question because like actually one i remember when i first came home from prison like i'm super just like couldn't believe it yeah super traumatized and like and this is when i actually was first sort of introduced to the fact that like this was such a huge thing like i my family had been saying like this thing has gotten really out of control and they would tell me about it but of course i'm in a prison cell where i only have access to so much information

and so i don't like my my access to this is every time i walk into a courtroom there's hundreds of people there who are taking pictures and like yelling things at me but i've never been in a courtroom before so i don't know what's fucking normal you think that might be i don't know and so my family's telling me this thing is out of control i don't really fully comprehend this until i get home and there's a press conference waiting for me at the airport yeah and how many years after this is four years it's so crazy and then so i get home i'm coming out of the airplane first of all even getting out of italy was high-speed car chases from paparazzi who are ramming our car.

Oh my God. And then- Look at my goosebumps. Esther's still jealous. Esther's like, when does it get bad? But like my weird moment of like, oh weird people actually know about me was when the local record store,

at like this local record store where I used to buy like CDs when I was a kid on their like outdoor sign, instead of being like, you like you know Macklemore playing it was Welcome Home Amanda and I was like oh my god and then I was like oh my god people know about me and I was like oh no people like like this is they don't know about me is the problem but because again it wasn't the story was never about me like they they made it about this idea of a person who didn't exist the whole the guy who actually committed this crime nobody's ever heard of him because no one gave a shit right and and so here

i am in a world that thinks it knows who i am and so to get back to your point, one of the first things that I did was one of my teachers brought me into my high school to talk to her class, just to be like, hey, you know, you've been through this crazy experience. Do you want to like share some wisdom or whatever, answer some kids' questions? And I remember being utterly heartbroken when the first thing that a kid asked was, what is it like to be famous? And I was like, I'm not. She's like, how old are you?

Cause you act like you're a second grader. You remind me of a second grader I once knew. Well, hey, that was not recorded on a podcast. By the way, can I just tell you, this is great.

You're being perfect. Get her. No, and I, but like it, that's, I think that's something that we don't really fully understand is that when there's a person in front of us that's in this like big way, we sort of assume that the bigness of it is a part of it. And it's like, no, I'm just a little person living in this huge, overwhelming experience.

And it's come to define my life in ways that I have no control over. Right. And fuck me, now what? what yeah so to get back to your question how do you i mean i don't know what what's your what does it mean that he's a fan what is it like how well it's somebody who's listened to my podcast for the last eight years right so it's come to love you through your work correct that's a way which is parallel which is strange because a lot of the stories that i tell i are hyperbole like they're exaggerations of my life they're not necessarily like the accuracy is not there like right um heightened

material it's way storytelling it's storytelling it's podcasting it's exaggerated um like for instance when i say like you know like i was molested as a child or i was um inappropriately touched by my doctor but instead of saying that i'll say i was fisted by my family doctor right hyperbole right um but he has gotten to know me and gotten to like me through that and when we finally met it almost felt like there was some type of like power dynamic because here was a stranger in front of me and he knows everything and he knows everything about he knows you guys ever role play doctor annie asked me if you got fisted yes role play doctor does not sound hot to me at all not at all especially when she was molested yeah I had my own

personal Larry Nazer I'm so sorry because you've got too much business to get to when you go to the doctor tell me what's going to get me out

of all my work tell me what's going to make me not have to do yoga anymore to each their own to each their own don't yuck anyone's yum

true true so basically it's that and then we became friends and now it doesn't feel like there is a power dynamic like I really genuinely respect. And now it doesn't feel like there is a power dynamic. Like I really genuinely respect and like this person. And you feel like he genuinely respects and likes you for you.

For me now. Because I've definitely had the experience of feeling like somebody who I thought I had a special connection with. I realized later on had an idea of me that was based upon this whole crazy story and like at one point he told me that he thought i was the reincarnation of joan of arc oh and i was like you know right right the burning um you probably have to live up to that that's the thing yeah it's like you if you are an idealized version of a person then you'll never be able to be the person that they want you to be, nor the person you need to be. So like, that's my concern is it's like, do they want you to be someone that's their idea of a person? Or are they genuinely curious about who you are and are willing to accept you for right i think for this person i think he was um um genuinely surprised and happy that

um i was pretty normal by the family right i wasn't like fully fisted that i was just a pretty normal normal you know i think it started to grow when he realized that I was really just kind of this small thing. Right. You're just a person. Yeah. All your glory. That's when we really bonded. It is crazy.

And you're like really reminding me of this concept. Like everyone is just a person. Like Brad Pitt is just a person. No, Brad Pitt's a theater major. Just a person. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I will say that it is very easy to get caught up in what everyone else in your life needs. Really, Esther?

Maybe someone else should take that line. And never take a moment to think about what you need from yourself. Okay? Therapy has helped me figure out how to actually love myself because you think you love yourself. You don't. You need to. It takes work. And without a therapist and without help guiding me to get there, it was it was never going to happen for me.

And if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. You guys, therapy has been an indispensable part of my life. It is the reason I'm alive today, and I recommend it to anybody, even if you are doing well. I always say just keep your grass green. You'll be surprised, the little things your head's telling you. Honestly, it does suck that like we live in a culture where we do all need therapy and that just is what it is. And BetterHelp is such a great option for that because it's the easiest, most convenient version and you can do it from home. So there's really it takes the excuses out of it. Yeah, it's a good starter therapy to like if you've never gone to therapy before and you want to do something that's not going to be like give you a panic attack. Yeah, great option. And they have this option where you can switch therapists at any time for no additional charge.

They have this really great journal feature. And all you really need to do is fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists, like I said, any time for no additional charge. Find more balance with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash Trash Tuesday today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash Trash Tuesday. How many times have you been baited into, we'll try it for 30 days, just enough time to try it and then you completely forget to cancel it and now it's three years from now. Now you're the only one with the blue checkmark.

The only one that paid for your Twitter check mark. I was a chosen one. It was just me and Stephen King that Elon felt we deserve to be verified. I'll tell you this. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps you lower your bills all in one place. Over 80% of people have subscriptions that they forgot about and chances are you're one of them. And like, you know,

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It's that easy. It does suck, though, because it does take to the end of the cycle. So your blue checkmark does show up. But it does get it for you stop throwing your money away cancel unwanted subscriptions and manage your expenses the easy way by going to rocketmoney.com slash trash tuesday that's rocketmoney.com slash trash tuesday rocketmoney.com slash trash tuesday after years of fine print contracts and getting ripped off by overpriced wireless providers if we've learned anything it's that there's always a catch so when i heard that for a limited time all mint mobile wireless plans are 15 a month when you purchase a three-month plan

i thought where's the catch but after talking to them it all made sense there isn't one mint mobile's secret sauce is that they sell wireless services online. They don't have retail stores or salespeople. Instead, they deliver premium phone plans directly to you. As you guys know, our friend Rick Glassman, he uses Mint Mobile. I learned about Mint Mobile through George Kimmel. George is a busy guy. He takes the most business calls. And the fact that not a single call is ever dropped. And you can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all of your existing contacts say goodbye to your overpriced wireless plans mint mobile is here to rescue you with plans starting at 15 bucks a month and all plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5g network that is such a steal to get this new customer offer and your new three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month go to mint mobile.com slash, go to mintmobile.com slash Tuesday. That's mintmobile.com slash Tuesday.

Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com slash Tuesday. $45 upfront payment required equivalent to $15 a month. New customers on first three-month plan only. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes. On unlimited plan, additional taxes additional taxes fees and restrictions apply statement mobile for details i have heard i don't i'm not sure if i've heard this said about you or if it's something that you said or if i'm somehow just like making it up but i feel like i've heard about you that you feel like you cannot be the silly person that you truly are because like this very serious

thing happened to you and like maybe you have to like hold back on being silly out of like respect or something is that real yeah so that's something that I've been slowly processing and grappling with over the past freaking 15 years of my life because going into this whole experience i you know one of the ways that i was vilified is when people called me like quirky and their way of saying like oh she's quirky turned into quirky is also capable of murder right like quirky means that she's abnormal quirky means that she's depraved and so there was this like weird Which is crazy because quirky to me i'm like I think of zoe de chanel on new girl, right? Well, yeah, and it was it was a stretch and it was always a stretch

Which is why it felt like there was no way that anyone would ever believe it and like going into like the day to receive My verdict I thought it was all gonna like the adults in the room would be like, okay So we're done like with like, charade of nonsense. Let's, like, let the poor girl go home. And then when they were, like, 26 years in prison, I was like, oh, oh. Were you, like, blacked out at that point? That must have been so...

Did you go in kind of knowing how the verdict was gonna go or were you like, I'm getting the fuck out of here? I thought I was going home. Holy fuck. I was 100 100 convinced i was going home so in that moment when you hear guilty what what's happening um so what it felt like um was like the ground fell out from beneath me and then fell on top of me um and then i had this like tremendous existential crisis of everything I thought I could count on the world no longer.

Of course. It's true. The truth doesn't even matter anymore. Oof. And now this is my life. Yeah. And so what was your question before that, though? Like you're a silly person that maybe cannot, you don't feel allowed to be silly because right

so yeah i mean i love comedy i love um i'm a silly person i was a theater major you would bully the shit out of me um and um and i just love like i'm a i'm a quirky kid who likes to have fun i play dungeons and dragons i go to ren fair like i'm I'm a fun, like that kind of person. And I'm a silly kind of person. But because so many people have come to know me through the context of like an utter fucking tragedy and like a horrible, brutal tragedy, they think that if I am being silly, it's somehow a commentary upon this tragic, horrible,

brutal thing that happened to my friend. And they're unable to like distinguish. And so like, for example, one of the ways that I deal with like how everything, everything I went through is sometimes I make jokes about it. I joke about being in prison. I joke about being wrongly accused. And then people are like, how dare you make jokes because your friend was murdered and i'm like i didn't make a joke about my friend being murdered i didn't you're used also that's literally like a theme of this show is we all use laughter to cope with hard things like i always talk about like the hardest i've ever laughed is at my grandfather's funeral like we just like they talk about being molested i'm like like, he, he, he like laughter and humor is how I cope,

how all this cope. So it's like, I hear you say that. And I'm like, duh, of course. But I, but people don't understand.

But also it's like, they're not even like taking into account that like your friend, like how traumatizing it is. If you're not even like involved. Two things happen. Your friend died. And then acknowledging that a lot of people forget to like, yeah.

Yeah. I, before I was ever like a victim of the criminal justice system i was an indirect victim of murder like if i had been home that night i would have been right like so i think people forget that like it was just by luck and being that i met a guy and was hanging out with him the night that somebody broke into my house and murdered my roommate. Yeah. So. Fuck.

And like just being falsely accused of any tiny thing. I'm like, it's the most infuriating thing. Much less like a man's crime. Right. My roommate was raped and murdered. And they were like, oh, you know, she must have orchestrated a sex game. And it's like, are you kidding me? Well, I have.

I'm very like. It's a testament to like men's brains. Well, it's like are you kidding me well i have i'm very like testament to like men's brains well it's that fantasy thing yeah such a fantasy always i have like i've been your fucking boners you ask open about i've been pretty open about how i i really i i used to watch true crime and i won't watch it anymore because i don't like the like like basically what you're saying like i was watching an episode of Dateline and I realized it was one of my friend's sisters. And the minute it became like a real thing, which you don't get that grace from people because...

They feel entitled to it and they don't understand that there's a real person behind it and that with like, you know, it's not to say that they aren't stories worth telling. It's just that like so often the people who are telling those stories are not the people who are actually the ones

with the most invested who have the most at stake. In fact, I don't know. Do you guys know that I have a podcast? Yeah. Okay, well. What's it called? It's called Labyrinths.

And then the most recent like mini series we have is called Blood Money. And it's all about this. It's all about like the history of true crime and the problems with its ethics and like all these open questions. It's not just this it's all about like the history of true crime and the problems with its ethics and like all these open questions because it's not just this easy black

and white yeah of course so well because also you want like the story to be told you want but it's there is something about like i'm like eating popcorn like watching this and like it's just now i just want popcorn i'm jealous of the popcorn um you bring up like oh wow actually like no one points out that your friend was murdered and like the feeling like that could have been you if you were home or whatever like what before the craziness of being a falsely accused of a crime like what is that even like to come home did you discover that like are to come home? Did you discover that? Like, are you screaming? Are you like, that must have been its own surreal experience.

So yeah, thank you for asking that. So there was from the discovery that my roommate had been murdered to my arrest was five days. And I was the one who came home and discovered that my house had been broken into. However, I never saw her body because somehow, I don't know actually why or how this happened, but her door, the door to her bedroom was locked and she was murdered in her bedroom. I think what

happened is the murderer had been rifling through her things to get money or credit cards or whatever and had grabbed her key and like locked her door. So here I am, I come home. I noticed that my front door is wide open. I noticed that there's like, I eventually I sort of poke around and I discovered that there's a window broken and I'm like, oh my God, someone broke into our house. And then I start calling my roommates. I have three roommates. Only one of them answers the phone. Two of them do not. And so the one that does answer the phone says, oh, my gosh, OK, you need to call the cops. And I'm like, I don't even know how to call the cops in Italy. So I get Raffaele, my boyfriend, to call the cops for me.

They come. They arrive. My other roommate arrives. But you already had an Italian boyfriend. You go, girl. She's jealous again. OK, sorry. Keep going. Yeah, again, like. I still want to have Freaky Friday. she's jealous again okay sorry keep going um yeah again like it's a freaky friday oh my god you're so lucky i actually do feel like i'm the luckiest person in the world because i'm not dead right now yeah um and other people in my position have spent way longer in prison than i

have so if you think about it, I'm actually quite lucky. Yeah, so I was not, I called all the people to figure out what was going on. The police arrived, my roommate arrived and they broke down Meredith's door and discovered her body. And I did not see into her room. I did not see what happened to her. All I heard or all that happened was suddenly a bunch of Italian people were screaming and yelling and talking very quickly in Italian.

And I was not fluent at that point. So I was very confused about what was going on. And so we were rushed out of our house. And then I was taken to the police station and I was asked to answer questions. And I ended up being questioned for 53 hours over five years um and uh and slowly over the course of being questioned and talking to people in the um in the police office i discovered what had happened so jesus christ and then um do you feel like so so how did you meet Chris?

How'd you meet your husband? Oh, we have actually a really cute story. It's not a Tinder story. Yes. Although those can be cute too, I guess. Yeah. No, so I was, at the time that I met my husband, he was writing novels,

being a poetry itinerant artist guy. And I was living in hiding, writing like arts correspondence for a local newspaper under a pseudonym and so i would like go to plays and write reviews or i would like read advanced copies of novels and i was given an advanced copy of his novel so i like to say that i wasn't sleeping with him until after i read it um anyway it's called war of the encyclopedists and um is there anything like more like cute than you read his book like i read his book and then at the very next day after i like submitted my

review to the paper i walked out of my apartment and in like this diner window across the street was like a a sort of poster like you would see for like a music show, but it was for a book reading for his book. Welcome home, Amanda. No, no. And it was at my local bookstore. And I was like, you know what? Fuck it. Like, I never go out in public. I never do anything. I never go out. I'm just going to go and check out this book reading. So I went and it was there that I met him. And of course, people are like, whisper, whisper, whisper. A man in ox is here. A man in ox is here. And I'm just like, okay. met him and of course people are like whisper whisper whisper a man in ox is your man in ox is here and i'm just like so i'm sitting there trying to be invisible failing epically he's up

there doing his like i'm a cool like book guy and i and and and then at the end of it i asked him for to for an interview for the paper and like what was so nice about Chris is like he had his nose in books the entire time that I was going through my experience he he like knew of me he was a he knew that my name was a name that people knew but he's not like a true crime guy so he didn't like know yeah and he didn't bother to google me when he met me so like the first nine months of our friendship was just like hanging out and being a normal person and then of course people are always asking him like what do you think what do you think and and he's like dude she's just my

friend like oh that's so sweet and then he murdered that puss chris chris is here i wouldn't say without say Chris being here we go back no but I think it's like it's really like kind of he's a novelist he gently he gently he didn't know anything about books maybe he writes romance novels you don't know wait a second so you wrote under a pseudonym was there ever a part of you when you finally did come home was there ever a thought like I should change my name look completely different abandon this image that these people had created of me by being somebody else completely and living that life with a little bit more freedom so I here's the thing I knew that that was a trap and that wasn't actually freedom because one the stubborn part of me was like there's nothing wrong with Amanda Knox I didn't do anything wrong so I don't have to be and that wasn't actually freedom. Because one, the stubborn part of me was like,

there's nothing wrong with Amanda Knox. I didn't do anything wrong, so I don't have to be the one that changes my name and like tries to hide my identity. I love that. The other thing was, whether or not other people knew who I was or what my experience was, I knew.

And so if I sort of like tried to live a life where I pretended like that didn't happen, I knew that that was ultimately only going to make my make me feel distant from everyone in the world around me. That's so inspiring. being in a podcast or like, you know, being up for consumption for the last decade. There is always that feeling in me where I just want to like cower and run and hide if anyone has any like criticisms about me. So I really love what you're saying. It's like, look, like I just am who I am. Right. Like there's no running away from that.

You know, you didn't do anything wrong. And that is that is the most important thing. Yeah. And it's a it's a thing that happened to me and so like if i'm navigating the world as if prison didn't happen to me like i'm one lying to myself and then i'm lying to everybody else and that doesn't make for a good foundation for any kind of actual intimate relationship is it hard to talk about does it like bring you to a place or um depends on different parts um i've i've taken the um the stance that there's no wrong questions

and there's nothing that's off the table just even for me like like i shouldn't feel like anything is too i don't want to be afraid of anything that i've experienced so i'm open to talking about anything and all of it that said there are like moments when it's like this is not an appropriate time for you to be asking me about the worst experience of my life like when i'm trying to pay for my groceries at the grocery store like that kind of thing is it's like no thank you i didn't want to sign up for this gossip with you but you're the gossip yes you're like but you're wanting to stop with me about people like i've had somebody like holding my credit card be like so did you really do cart

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Like I'm in touch with Raffaele, who is the Italian boyfriend. You're so jealous. Yeah, no, he's he's doing OK. Yeah, no, he's he's doing have anger, but that's not the primary emotion that I feel about everything. I feel more sad. And so I think sadness is a, is an emotion that allows me to actually reach out and ask for help and ask for connection. Whereas anger is something that is very, very isolating. And I think think that rafael is still grappling with a lot more anger um justifiably did he go to prison too yeah he was in prison for four years exactly wow because he was my alibi and during those four years do you are you just surviving or is there like a moment where you're

like okay i have to strategize like a life within these walls like I have to figure out a way where it's not so grim for me to exist in here or are you just getting through your day like without much thought so there was a shift the first two years in my imprisonment I didn't have a verdict yet and so I felt like I was just kind of like this lost tourist who was in the wrong place. And so I was just waiting to be allowed to go home. And so I spent those first two years really just feeling like, okay, I'm just surviving until the time when all the adults in the room

get their shit together. Two years. Two years. I was 20 years old. And then the next two years after I was convicted and sentenced to 26 years, that's when I had this sort of like existential crisis come to like just come into myself. Like, how do I make my life worth living? And I couldn't figure out how to answer that question.

So instead, I said, how do I make today worth living? And I just kept asking myself that same question over and over and over again every day. And what were some like things that made that day worth living? Writing a letter to my mom. I like outdid myself in some things. Like I would give myself challenges. Like I once did 900 sit-ups in one day. You know, like stuff like that anyway I feel like Esther that wouldn't be your um yeah I still be like oh I don't have to work out

I read a lot of books um I helped a lot of like most of the people that I was in prison with were illiterate so I helped a lot of them like write letters to their family members. Oh my God. Um, uh, I was also, um, I sort of became the unofficial like translator in prison cause there were a lot of people in, um, in there who couldn't speak Italian and could only sort of kind of speak like a pigeon English. And so I, cause there are a lot of like African immigrants, um, or, or people who had been used as like drug mules or something like that, prostitutes, that kind of thing. So they weren't native Italians. They didn't speak the language. They didn't really understand what was going on.

They couldn't even read their court documents, much less like explain their ailments to the doctors or something. And so very often I was called in to translate for people. Do you, sorry, do you just basically wake up now every day like I can't believe that I have freedom and like a beautiful life? Like, do you have that feeling every day now? Definitely what it feels like is that there, I've had many lives. Like there was the before prison life that I led. Then there was the prison life that I led led then there was the prison life that i loved

and then there's this life that i'm living and they they're so different that it feels like completely different lives um and um and also because in some really practical ways they are like when i first came home from prison i thought i was going to get to go back to the life that I was leading before prison. And I was like, oh, no, the world has incredibly changed its attitude towards me. I'm not just like some anonymous kid anymore. But also I've changed and I have to like re-figure out who I am and what my place is in the world. re-figure out who I am and what my place is in the world. And I have to live with this like crippling feeling of how uncertain everything is in the world. Like the amount of like faith

that I had that like there's some kind of like sense to the world or that I can trust authorities or anything like that, like all of that evaporated. And so like even to this day, I really struggle with the idea of like making plans. Like a lot of people are like, oh yeah, what's your like five year, 10 year plan? And I'm like, do you know how many random ass things are going to happen to you that are going to be more impactful than any of your fucking plans? Do not ask me about four-year plan i really relate to this because i have a lot of anxiety around planning in general if someone's like oh like do you want to go to so and so six months from now i'm like i you i can't give you that answer like maybe two weeks out i can three weeks out i can

but i cannot do a lot of future planning, sort of because like, in the same way that like, maybe things have happened in my younger life, that have been such like, like life changing things, like life shattering things where I'm like, I just I tomorrow, I don't know, like, I don't know what's around the corner. So I can't give you that answer. Yeah. And and at the the same time like the world sort of demands that you do that like I'm having to you know for career wise I have to like make plans for like next year, but at the same time it's like who knows Right, so just do the best you can when you're present in the moment, and that's all you can do Authority thing is really scary That's so scary to just be like am I protected am I did you find do like the authority thing is really scary um that's so scary to just be like am i

protected am i did you find more like self-trust through it like definitely well at first there was a incredible amount of not self-trust because the police made me feel like i was crazy um they told me that i had amnesia and that i had witnessed the murder and that i didn't remember it and so i started to question my own sanity and then afterwards i blamed myself so much for like what it happened yeah i was incredibly gaslit so i blamed myself for years about for what had happened and i thought it was my fault that i was going through this whole experience and god that is so universal for a victim to like blame themselves but then you add that you're fucking in prison that is crazy and everyone said a real prison be there and that you're a bad person and yeah even the people who like think that maybe you're innocent think

there's something wrong with you. Right. Because like the stigma of being someone who was accused, people tend to think that at the very least you were asking for it somehow. Like maybe you're not guilty of murder, but you're guilty of something. Cartwheels. You're guilty of being a weirdo or whatever it is. And so like you sort of have to grab and like when the whole world is telling you that, you feel like they must be right. And so for years I blamed myself. And it wasn't until I met other wrongfully convicted people who had gone through the exact same experience that I did that I was like, oh, shit, people are asking the wrong question. They're constantly asking what's wrong with me.

And they're not asking what's wrong with what was done to me. Right. And then do you have like a network of people that you still kind of communicate? Yeah. Cause I was going to say, it's like, we can all try to relate, but it's like,

it's just such a unique, it's such a, I'd like to think that anybody can relate to anything if they want to. Like I've had an incredible relationship with a friend of mine who, um, it's funny. She, we like connected over poetry.

And then after a while she figured out who I was. She didn't know who I was at first. And she came in to hang out and was like, oh my God, you're Amanda Knox. And I was like, fuck, what did you Google? And she was like, no, no. She's like, you don't understand. I was gang raped when I was a teenager.

Oh my God. And everything you talk about, like with that feeling. Shut up, Annie. Being, you know, like how these like overpowered and vulnerable and made to feel small and like taken advantage of. Like all of that is really resonant with me. So like the feeling, like what happens to you isn't necessarily the thing that connects people. It's the way that it's impacted you. It's the way that it's impacted you. It's the way that it makes you feel.

However, there are some things about meeting other wrongfully convicted people where it's like, you just don't have to explain anything to them. Like the most relieving thing that I've ever had happen to me was walking into a room for the first time of other wrongfully convicted people, by the way, mostly men and mostly men of color, who came up to me and just the first thing they said was, "'You don't have to worry about a thing, little sister.

"'We know. "'Like, you don't have to explain a thing.'" And I was just like, the relief, the relief that washed over me of like, "'Oh my God, I don't have to explain myself "'to people in this room like oh like that i didn't know how much that i had been holding right um feeling that and so that makes me emotional i know like fuck sorry no it's good we can talk about stupid gross stuff

no but that i'm sure is something that like so many people can relate to in different ways of like wanting to feel understood. And for you to finally, after all those years, just have that moment of feeling understood seems like really healing. Oh, here we go. It's always feels like. We have on our show, we have banana break. When emotions are high. Here we go. It always feels like... It's a banana break. We have on our show, we have banana breaks. When emotions are high. I used to feel like I needed to tell people that happened to me.

Like, it felt like such an important part of, like, who I was. Like, I wanted everyone to know this, like, thing that I went through. And then I stopped, like, personalizing it. Like, I stopped being, I stopped being like it's like kind of what you were saying it's like a thing that happened to me it's not like me or like a part of me it's just like a thing that that happened and that's been really helpful but it's interesting like where everyone already knew you didn't really get the experience for people to not know what happened yeah it wasn't a choice for However, I think that it's a there's actually a really important thing that happens where, like, I remember there was a moment where I was like, who am I now? Like this thing, horrible thing happened to me. I just got home from prison.

Who the fuck am I now? Like, the only thing that people care about is the fact that I'm a girl accused of murder. I don't even know what that means to me. Like, what does that mean to me? And so it takes time for you to get to the place of being able to say, this isn't just me. It's just a thing that happened to me. I feel like you have to go through a place of like having processed it, having put it into context in your own mind and like having lived some experiences outside of it. So it's not just this thing that's on top of you that you just like went through.

of it so it's not just this thing that's on top of you that you just like went through so yeah i mean sometimes it is true that just you need time to grow up and and figure out where that thing is and it put it in its proper place yeah and then like it kind of feels it feels like very impactful to not tell it sometimes you know to not tell the story i'm like oh that actually feels like really good to not have that and i always have this image of like every time, like I just realized I was like dragging. My teacher had dreads. He was like a white guy with dreads. Just dragging this like white dreaded guy with me like throughout my life. I'm just like dragging by his dreads.

Come on to this part of my life. I got to tell everyone about you. And then I was like, let it go. Like, you know, and obviously it's still a little bit in me, but. It's still in me too it's super still in i don't think it ever is not in you i work on that anger though too because the anger i think you're right it's like it really does like it separates you from the outside world yep i also think that there's something about being a girl that like the feeling of just not being believed is different because

a perfect example is like when we talk about our traumas on this podcast being sexually assaulted being you know like all the horrible things that have happened to us like lately i've been seeing and reading things like oh yeah like those girls are lying or that's it's just it's too much. No, like all of those things couldn't have happened to one person or to Kalilah. Sorry, you weren't hot. Sorry, you weren't hot. In the meantime, you have someone like my ex, my ex partner, who's like a lovely person, but he tells maybe even more extreme stories about his life. Never questioned ever. Never. The veracity of what about his life never questioned ever never the veracity of what

he says is never questioned but mine sexual assault things that are very believable that could happen to a woman always just like that couldn't have happened to her she's lying are you sure that you were sexually assault am i you know what i mean yeah what were you wearing to that doctor's appointment tell me you weren't bottomless of the gynecologist kalilah i must have asked for it been on my knees and said do me dr mardelli i could also see you doing that though on behalf of the the commenters at home but that must like be also true of your experience. It's like a photo of you smiling and suddenly you're so happy your roommate is dead. Like that. Yeah.

Again, so this is why it feels like there was just a story that was happening on its own with a character on its own. Like Foxy Noxy was a character in other people's narratives and imaginations that had nothing to do with me and that I had no agency over I was not the one writing that script and I was just the one who was living with the consequences of it and how do you feel someone that had a poster of her on sure I do have to ask this question because like there's always talk on tiktok about how like in italy like the food doesn't make you bloated was the food in prison is that what people talk about on tiktok i don't know i'm not on tiktok like because you were in prison but in italy like was the food good? You know how

like so many people ask me that question actually. Like a lot of people are like oh my god I'm so sorry we're going to an Italian restaurant I bet you're tired of that. That's so funny. And I'm like oh you know I was in prison in Italy so no we were not having caprese. No.

No. No. I was having prison food. I spent years in italy to eat prison food meal prep it's like planned out for you i don't know wait when you were in italy did you feel bloated at all no because this is like a big phenomenon on like hot girl TikTok where people talk about like you can eat pizza and like grains in Italy and you don't feel bloated because it's not like poisonous like it is in the US. Well, what is true is that here in the US, I never eat pizza here in the US unless it's made by an actual Italian person. And that's that's due to the way that they do the dough, like the ingredients. Like in Italy, they treat pizza like actual food

with like actual ingredients. And they don't just like fluff it up artificially with like weird plastic cheese. Yes. Yeah, no. So we, yes, pizza in Italy is better. It is factually better. It's nice to be like you four years in prison

to have a pizza. I know that from... I was like, it's totally worth it. We didn't eat pizza in prison though. I was from the, like the five weeks

I was in Italy before I was put in prison. Oh my God, five weeks was all you were there? Were you going home soon after that? No, I actually had

just arrived in Italy and I was planning on spending the year there to study abroad. When you think about Italy as a whole, are you like, fuck that place? Or are you like, okay, well, that happened. Because if that were to have happened to me,

fuck pizza, fuck anything Italian related, fuck all Italian soccer teams, like just fuck anything relating to that country. Like that would be just so, my rage I think would just like bubble over for this place that this that did this thing to me. I mean, it's not a place that did something to me. It was some people who did something to me. I do think that there was some aspects of it being in Italy that that contributed.

One was that I was not fluent in the language when I was being interrogated that was a quite a huge factor but other things like I think there was because there was this like Madonna whore dichotomy story going on that particularly resonated in a culture that sort of was, that kind of narrative was more common to hear. Wait, what was that with you? Just that you were like sexualized because you were pretty or like what? Well, so the way that my prosecution argued,

the reason they said that I murdered my roommate randomly one night when I have no history of violence or mental illness, or even like, I have a good relationship with my roommate the day before she was murdered. We were texting each other back and forth about meeting up because it was Halloween. Like there. So like we have this good relationship and they decided to portray us as

she's this stuck-up British girl who doesn't want to be my friend and who is constantly judging me because I'm like this slutty American girl. And so there's the Madonna-like virgin who ends up getting sucked into my depraved sex orgy game and then I murder her in the midst of that game to punish her for basically, like, wagging her British finger at me

for being this slutty American girl. It makes perfect sense. It's just so wild. It sounds like Reddit with our show. The conspiracy theories on there. Ooh, Annie didn't look over at Kalilah for three weeks. Apparently, i had sex with rick glassman did you guys know that apparently that's the thing i didn't know

about it like on the show apparently that was something that i kept from the world like i just like some of these things that are thrown like i'm like wow men really do have like this kind of sick imagination where's how far they take things. It's gossipier than they want to admit. It's just gossip. That's fair. Like, you know, like, ooh, what's this? Yeah, what's stanky stuff?

But maybe it's not as like benign as I, you know, like, you're like, you just don't read this stuff. You know, it's nothing. It won't affect your life. But it's like, maybe it will and it can and it has. So careful, guys. Maybe those comments aren't as benign as we think oh god you're killing us you're killing us so we saw you last night at the premiere party for witness roast what was that like like appearing on a comedy roast after like i don't know was that very freeing for you or yeah

yeah yeah it felt good it felt great i mean whitney's always been so freaking supportive and i think that just the fact that she i mean a lot of people in my life are like oh man you're you're like so funny and like so much fun yeah But like Whitney was like, let's capitalize on that. And I was like, great, let's go. No, but I know she's such a boss and she was like, why do you have to hide? Like, there's nothing wrong with you being funny. Like you made me laugh when we were hanging out together.

I like make some people laugh and I I was like, fuck, yeah, especially if I get to make fun of you. She's such a good target. Oh, my God. There were like farm animals and and my daughter was having a blast backstage because they had like these inflatable like they had these guys who these poor guys like hours that day just like in these inflatable animal costumes for like a five minute thing on the stage but they were like we're getting paid we're feeling great so they were just hanging out backstage like mooing for eureka so cute no whitney's like the perfect amount of extra her party last night was so cute and fun. Yeah.

You weren't even there when I put on the OnlyFans thong. What? You did that? I got there early and Eureka really wanted to go in the pool and I had not brought a swimsuit. So I was like, well, I guess I'm 20 weeks pregnant and putting on a thong. Sounds like fun. So I just like, I didn't even go into a dressing room. I was just like there by the pool and I was like, well, here boobs put them on the witness there's always but honestly you could do kill an

only fans pregnant with a not to sound like Whitney here but we gotta capitalize that is true I was on um chatterbait um what is that they're laughing because these are the only pervs i would know chatterbait is basically the site that has like live girls guys whatever you want on there and they have um one of the categories as they do in pornhub is pregnancy and these women were incredible like i was part of like there was this one room that i entered and there were only seven people in there. So it was very intimate and she was just squeezing her milk into the camera.

And I couldn't have given this woman more tokens in my life. I was like, send, send, send, send, send, send,

send. I was just like milk splashing into the screen. And I just like kept, I couldn't stop for like a whole hour. Esther would be into, I'm getting hungry. I was breastfed. So I was three and a half Do you want to ask Do you have memories?

I do I remember being breastfed I'm very proud of it Do you feel good about that? Do you look at your mom's boobs in an interesting way? No She's very boob sensitive though She doesn't like any stimulation on her nipples.

Yeah. I feel like that can't be related. Is she that good? I'm so scared of you touching my nipples. Titty twister. Like, if someone gave me a titty twister. I would never titty twist you. No, I know you wouldn't.

But I'm just saying, like. Titty twisting to a girl. Why would you do that? That's what my mom did to me. It's the most evil thing. We were at JCPenney when we first came. I grew up in the Philippines and I came here when I was 15 they brought their jc penny and so this was like our big mall outing the first big american mall outing and um my mom was like abusive my whole life she beat my ass my whole life very typical i love her now um but we were

jc penny and she was like ask for your bra. But I was too nervous to ask the attendant. I was like, no, you ask. And then she asked my sister, you ask for your bra size. She was like, no, Ma, can you ask? She had both of you? Dude, she took one nipple from my sister, one nipple from me, and she just twisted. That will affect the size of the bra, too, honestly. It's going to be all swollen.

Dude, my sister and I, our first or second week in America, we're walking around with one blue titty oh stop so honestly titty because todd will be like i'm gonna pinch her i'm like it's not the same it's not even funny though yeah yeah get away yeah get away listen she's been to prison and she doesn't want this you understand yeah murder rather of that didn't say that you're not the only one now okay so you have um eureka and you have you have a son on the way i do yeah so excited you're a perfect little family i know after all that fucking shit i know i'm

lucky what can I say? It all worked out. And you got to be in a pseudonym. So you got to meet Chris under like. Under like just chill circumstances. And he like spent good nine months into our relationship. Like not Googling me. Only like occasionally.

Like I'd bring up. A great example of this is. It's not like I wouldn't bring up prison. Of course, it's a big part of my life. So he would be like, oh, let's watch Wally. And I'm like, what's Wally? And he's like, how do you not know what Wally is? What are you like?

And I was like, oh, I was in prison. Obama, we have a black president. What did you have access to? Like, what is like, entertaining? I knew that Obama was. I didn't know who Justin Bieber was, though. I had no idea who that was. Wow, okay.

So confused. I feel like that might have been a blessing. Were there any, like, huge changes in technology when you came out of prison? Like, what was, like, the biggest surprises of the way life had changed? And so like I actually remember my mom gave me her phone like in the car chase as we're leaving the prison. She gave me her phone so I could call the family and tell them that I was coming home. And I didn't know how to interact with it because there were no buttons. And so she had to do the touch screen thing to like show me like to dial people for me. And so I was just like, God, you do it.

And then I just talked on the phone and gave it back to her when I was done. When it was time to go home, were you like, okay, like, I need to be like mindful of like how I reintegrate because that has to be so overwhelming, even like stimulus in itself, like the sounds of things again. I was super naive. And I thought that I was going to get like I said, I thought I was going to just get to go back to being a normal person. And I was kind of impatient to go back to being a normal person because I had just spent four years waiting to be able to go back to being a normal person. So the last thing I wanted to do was like chill out and wait. And my mom wanted me to like live with her and to go to therapy and do all these things and i was like i don't want to do any of that i just want to go back to school but of course when i'm going back

to school people are taking pictures of me in class and now they're fucking followed by paparazzi wait so you did go back to school yep i went back to school i'm not jealous of that and i got my degree i finished my degree. What was the time span from when you started college to when you finished? So I started college in 2005. And it's not going to be longer than that. And I graduated in, let's see, so it was 2014. Okay. Mine was eight years between mine was eight years mine's similar i i went to college early 70 and then took a while yeah it feels like such a natural trauma response to like get out and really want to go back to what you had before yeah i feel like

i'd be homesick and like desperate for what it was, what life was before. Yeah, absolutely. You're nostalgic for the life that you had before you were traumatized. Yeah. Right. Like now sort of what is your, like, what is your work now? Like you have your podcast. What's like the main focus of that? Or like, are you, do you work on like prison reform?

Or I don't even know if that's the right term, but like, what is, what do you do now? Yeah. Besides being a mom. Yeah. I'm doing a lot of mom stuff, but besides that, my husband and I have our podcast labyrinths,

which is a thing. And we interview lots of people. We do also do all production and scripting and all of that. But the main idea behind it is we like to talk to people about when they felt the most lost. And that can come in many different forms. I've talked to people about miscarriages. I've talked to people about medical issues that they've had. I've talked to people about wrongful convictions. And then on top of that, I do, I try to support the Innocence Project and the various affiliated projects like that.

I do a lot of journalism that has to do with criminal justice related issues, especially issues that I feel like are these very, very easy fixes to like really, really big problems. An example is right now in Washington state, they're trying to change the law so that it makes it illegal for police to lie to juveniles when they're interrogating them. Because right now it's super, super legal for you to just lie like you're interrogating people and police are allowed to lie to you. And this is particularly dangerous when it's juveniles because they're incredibly suggestible. And so you're getting juveniles to falsely confess to crimes that they didn't commit because they've been lied to by police officers.

And they feel like, well, if the police say I did it, then I either I don't know. And I guess I must have done it. Or I don't have like they're never going to believe me. So I might as well say I did it because they're the authority figure. They'll give you a soda. There was like, yeah, you want to. it's a whole like Brendan Dassey cooler and and Dassey is a great example so they're trying to change the law to at least make it so that juveniles are not getting lied to even though they shouldn't be lying to Brendan Dassey he was told

well if you just say this you get to go home and watch Wrestlemania uh-huh you get to and the kid was like I just want to go home and watch Wrestlemania I'll just I'll tell you like at a certain point in interrogation I'll tell you, like, at a certain point in interrogation, I'll tell you from experience, like, you are willing to believe and say anything as long as they stop yelling at you. Shit. So it's like, because they get you to the point of, like,

they isolate you, they gaslight you, they lie to you. I was hit. And, like, they make you feel crazy. Yeah, they were hitting me in the back of the head, telling me to remember. They were hitting me and saying, remember, remember. Oh my God. I'm never eating pizza again.

That'll stop it. No, pizza's great. I never got to eat pizza as much. So like I eat all the pizza I can now. Well, if we have a pizza party, I'll remember that. I'll smack her in the back of the head. Remember you said this? Oh my gosh, Amanda, this has been like such an amazing chat.

You are so open and you also seem like so intelligent. And like, I would guess that before all this happened, you must have already been like mature and like in touch. I don't know. I just feel like, you know know you come out of this situation it's like you might start doing porn or like there's probably a lot she went to whitney's house she could very easily start you never know what that i was in that only fans thong it was very close there to videotape it um and i hope everyone watches you crush alongside annie on official Whitney Cummings Rose.

Yeah, Annie crushed it. That was so fun. That was so fun. It was fun. Which is free on OnlyFans TV. Yeah. And everyone should check out your podcast. Labyrinth.

I'm excited. Is it Labyrinth? Labyrinth. Labyrinth. Hell yeah. Yay. Very exciting. And congratulations on the new baby.

Thank you. Yeah. It's very exciting to see you yeah i'm so excited i finally got to get on your guys's podcast yeah for having me it was a quirky time it was a quirky time thanks guys