True Crime with Kendall Rae - Michael Turney Was Acquitted?! Exclusive Interview With Sarah Turney

Episode Date: November 2, 2023

In today's episode, I sat down with Sarah Turney, sister of Alissa Turney, and we talked about everything that's happened leading up to and following her sister's murder trial, where their father was the accused. Shockingly, Michael Turney was acquitted after a lack of preparation from the prosecution. She also shared some personal details about how she's been exploited by 20/20 and other content creators and how it's shaped her views on true crime. Tune in for a very emotional yet very important conversation. -Voices for Justice: https://www.voicesforjusticepodcast.com/ -Updated Age Progression: https://www.missingkids.org/poster/NCMC/912562/1 -My First Video on Alissa Turney: https://youtu.be/h4izLpteKSY?si=rRs2XHYZsBFBa7Qs -Sarah Turney on Mile Higher: https://youtu.be/YiPyWM9DECg?si=R6VOXqLvf6e33KQ4 -Defenders of Children: https://defendersofchildren.org/ Donate to NCMEC through my campaign! https://give.missingkids.org/campaign/kendall-rae/c438796 This episode is sponsored by: Nutrafol - promo code: KENDALLRAE Check out Kendall's other podcasts: The Sesh & Mile Higher Follow Kendall! YouTube Twitter Instagram Facebook Mile Higher Zoo REQUESTS: General case suggestion form: https://bit.ly/32kwPly Form for people directly related/ close to the victim: https://bit.ly/3KqMZLj Discord: https://discord.com/invite/an4stY9BCN CONTACT: For Business Inquiries - [e-mail]

Tio Tires, Discount Group, Reads Live Up! Toyo Tires provide traction, safety and comfort from Toyos Observe Winter Tires to the Celsius and Open Country Lines of All Weather Tires. Toyo has a cold weather solution for you. Toyo Tires, Making Tires for Your Road. Find your nearest Toyo dealer by visiting tirediscountercrugroup.ca slash locations. Tirediscountergroup.ca One of the biggest things when I realized my dad was acquitted was I thought about the families. All those families fighting out there and I didn't want them to be discouraged. I still believe him getting to court was a huge win.

And even if we didn't get it past the finish line, I just want families to realize that there is so much power in media attention and getting those resources that come with media attention, right? When police departments and state prosecutors are kind of put on the spot of like, this case is everywhere, what are you going to do? More resources are allocated to those cases.

So I want families to know that just because, you know, my dad wasn't found guilty, that it's not all for nothing and that they need to keep fighting. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to True Prime with Kendall Ray. I am so happy to have you here today to talk about yet another case. And if you're new, then welcome. So today's episode is going to be a little different. I am joined with Sarah Turnie, a good friend of mine.

It's been so long since we've actually seen each other in person. And I'm so happy to have you here. Thank you for coming. Oh, thank you for having me. I wouldn't want to talk with many other people. You've been such a good friend to me over the years and I'm just so excited to see you here. Thank you for saying that.

I mean, you're just amazing. And we really have developed such a friendship over the years, which has been just amazing. And I can't believe that it's been five years since we first started talking. I know. I'm flies for real. I know. And I'm like terrible at math.

But when I started thinking about it, I was like, oh my God, holy cow, five years. It was 2018, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. I remember it was like May or June of 2018. Yeah. So yeah, over five years now. And we've collaborated several different times,

but never in this format. I know. You're doing like a really formal sit down interview. And I'm really excited. So if you are not familiar with Sarah, she is the host of Voices for Justice Podcast and Sister of Alyssa Turnie. Now many of you are probably familiar with Alyssa's case. If you were into true crime at all, I'm sure you've heard of it. And you've probably heard Sarah talk about it, whether that's on my show or someone else's show, because you have been hugely involved in getting her story out there. I will be summarizing Alyssa's case here in a bit. Just to give you guys kind of a recap, although it's important that you go and check out other mediums of content on Alyssa's case.

Obviously, the Voices for Justice podcast is going to be the best source. We also did our video in 2018, like I mentioned, and then you came back and did another episode of Josh and I in 2019. So we will have all of that linked below to familiarize yourself with the case more. I know I had mentioned last week to kind of look into everything before we have this interview or you could be a little bit confused and you know, my episode today is going to be a little bit different than normal, my normal style because we will be doing a really candid interview. Sarah has a lot that she is finally ready to open up about. I mean, it has been sometimes since you've been able to speak so freely.

Three years. Well, and really, I've never been able to speak so freely. Three years. Well, and really, I've never been able to fully speak really, I feel, because I was always so worried about everything coming back to Elisa, which, you know, so I just kind of edited myself a little bit and really took a back seat and tried to just tell her story and focus on her.

So this is new to me too. I've done so many interviews, but I'm not used to talking like this. I'm ready to talk. It's been a long three years. It's been a long journey, and now I can say what I would like to say without hurting her. So it's a different ballgame. Yeah, and that's mainly because, you know, the case finally did go to trial, and then very recently in July of 2023, Michael Turnie was acquitted. It's insane. It was definitely not come that nobody really expected. And from what I'm told by experts, it's a pretty rare ruling. Yeah, that's what I've heard too. And, you know, we had been talking behind the scenes and you started telling me that you felt

nervous about things and started to feel doubtful. And at the time when you said that, I was like, I couldn't even let my mind go there. So I was just like, no, no, it's going to be fine. It's going to be fine, but you were right. And we have a lot to go over when it comes to that. I know I've gotten so many requests to talk about the trial. And I wanted to wait until I had Sarah here to explain everything from her point of view since you were there for it all. And really, you got the case to that point and you should be so proud of yourself for everything that you've done for your sister.

It's truly amazing. Thanks. I mean, you're gonna make me cry in like the first two minutes already. And I think that's where so much peace comes in. You know what I mean? I, at the end of the day, I'm sure there are a few things I could have done more

for her, right? More interviews, whatever it might be. But I'm at peace with what I did for her. I mean, I feel like what more should I have done? Yeah, not truly. And it's like a fine line, too, because, you know, you have to be careful when a trial could be happening in the near future and what you say and everything. So you've had to toe a line. And now you're free to do, you know, whatever you want, speak however you want. And I'm sure I know you've told me also behind the scenes that it's been kind of a relief in a way.

Obviously, this is not the outcome that you wanted and it's a really hard pill to swallow, but it has given you a sense of your life back in a way. I know you've been working on falling back in love with life. Yeah, I've been saying that and I think that's really cool. Yeah, we're calling it me and my friends, whatever, the Sarah era, right? And I know. And yeah, I am trying to fall back in love with life because my, I mean, when I say illicit consumed my life, I mean it like, you know, it became my job. It became my entire world. I lost personal relationships because of it.

I would do it again in her feet. I would do anything for her. But yeah, I did. I gave up everything for her and I don't regret it. But this has been my life since I was 12. You know, when she first went missing, I created her fire. I created her website.

And well, of course, I had my teenage years where I thought that she'd just run away and I tried to forget about it and I wasn't actively advocating as felt like my burden since I was 12 and of course you know I became the police contact person when I was just like 17 so I had that responsibility for decades and now that I don't and not to say that all responsibility is gone, but now that it's really really lessened, I kind of don't know what to do with myself, and I'm really finding myself again. My own identity outside of just advocating for her. Yeah, I'm sure that's been a really freeing experience. I mean, a lot of mixed emotions here. Obviously, we're going to be discussing

A lot of mixed emotions here. Obviously we're going to be discussing quite a bit about how all of this has affected you and what your experience has been like. And I really want to focus on that today. And I mean, that is such a huge win in itself that you were able to actually get in that courtroom and for charges to be pressed and everything. That was truly amazing.

And it didn't go the way you wanted. But I've told you before, I think you should be very proud for how far you did get things. We're also going to be talking about how the trial was completely mishandled. We're going to be talking about the recent ABC 2020, their newest episode, which has really exploited your trauma. And we'll get into it. But really, I mean, Dave Michael an opportunity to speak out and kind of highlighted him and you know I know you have a lot of feelings about that and you did not participate in the 2020 and you haven't even watched it at this point

Correct. I won't watch it. Yeah, you should it. It's all pain. Yeah. Yeah, I did end up watching it to I had to see for myself what they did and I ate. I knew that they had used a clip of mine and I was really disappointed in that. It did fall under fair use so they were able to do that. And we're also going to be getting into the missing Elisa podcast, which you have never really publicly spoken about your experience with Atavia Zipala? Yeah, I mean, I've touched on it a few times and mostly not naming her. But I, yeah, it's so hard for me to talk about now because honestly, she still scares me because of the past interactions with her, but I want to do my best because it shaped my entire view of True Crime.

And once the arrest happened and I began talking about ethics and true crime, most of my experiences, negative experiences came from that podcast and just from interactions with her. So it's a little scary, but I think it's important to talk about because my side has never been out there. No. And she's put her side out there. Yeah. And I'm sure it's been hard to kind of hold your tongue on some of that. I didn't want to, you know, talk about it before the trial because it wasn't about me, you know what I mean? All the focus needed to be on Alyssa, but yeah, she certainly told her side of the story and you know, and I know we can't get into everything today, ignore should we? I don't want to really, but we'll do an overview and I'm ready to talk about it. We're going to be talking a lot about the trial though as well and your experience with that,

how you feel the trial was rushed and how certain media platforms have really exploited your sister and possibly damaged the trial as well. And what Michael's freedom, your father's freedom, looks like today and moving forward and how you want to approach things going forward and kind of your future goals. I'd love to get into all of that. But again, thank you so much for being here. We will be back with Sarah in a moment and now we're gonna cut back to my home studio

where I will give a summary on the Elisitani case. Okay, so back in my normal spot here and before I jump into my interview with Sarah, I wanted to take a moment to summarize this case. Now, it's really hard to summarize the disappearance of a list attorney because there is so much information. So again, I will have some videos of mine, some podcasts linked below, as well as Sarah's podcast

on the case. That is going to be the best source for information and a full picture. So please check that out. But I'm gonna do my best to explain it for those of you who aren't familiar with Alyssa's story. Really quick though, before I get into that, I reached out to my friends at National Center for Missing and Exploited Children and asked them if they could do an updated age progression of Alyssa with her 40th birthday coming up next year and they said they would be happy to. They have been very helpful in this case and it'll be great to get another one. Big thank you to NeckMeg for getting that done so quickly for us. I know Sarah and I really appreciate it. And if you want to, I would be really grateful if you would share that image. I will have a link to it below where you can download it and you know, put it

on your social media or share it with friends and family. As of the recording of this video, we have raised $230,000 for NeckMeg, and I am very, very grateful to all of you who have participated in the campaign. We have several merch items available right now. We have t-shirts, crewnecks, long sleeves. Some of the items we do have very limited quantities of, so if you would like one of them, get your soon before we sell out. And 100% of the proceeds from that collection goes directly to neck neck. If you would like to check any of those out, they're all available at my merch's new home, which is kennelray.shop. When I think of my favorite beauty products of the year,

I have to put neutralful at number one. Neutralful has literally transformed my hair over the last year. I have never been happier with my hair. It is healthier, is thicker than ever. After I had my baby, my hair thinned out so much. It was so weak and I was really self-conscious about it. So that's when I first found neutral. It was before they were sponsoring the show and I just tried it out and I've been using it and paying for it on my own for the last year and wow what a difference.

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for six months. So take the first step to visibly thicker, healthier hair. For a limited time, nutriple is offering my listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you go to nutriple.com and enter promo code Kendall Ray. Find out why over 4,000 health care professionals recommend nutriull for healthier hair. That's Neutral.com spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com promo code Kendall Ray. That's NutriFull.com promo code Kendall Ray. So let's go ahead and talk about Alissa. This was born

April 3rd, 1984, which means her 40th birthday is coming up next year. Next April, she was born to her mother, Barbara, and her biological father wasn't in the picture, so when her mom met Michael Turnie and the two got married, he quickly became the father figure in Alyssa's life. Michael had three sons from a previous relationship, and along with Alyssa, Barbara also had a son. And together, Michael and Barbara had one daughter of their own, Sarah. And despite technically being a blended family, Michael and Barbara really put an emphasis on the fact

that they were one family, so nobody thought of each other as a half sibling or anything like that. And that's why you'll hear Sarah refer to Alyssa as her sister and not her half sister. By the time Alyssa and Sarah were through their early childhood, their brothers had moved out of the house, so it was really just the two of them, and that made them incredibly close. And sadly, when Sarah was just four years old and Alyssa was eight, their mother passed away from lung cancer. And so they were left in the care of Michael and Michael alone. And for as long as Sarah can remember, their father, Michael, treated them both very differently.

And to Sarah, Michael was the perfect father. He let her skip school any time she wanted, she could eat all the McDonald's in the world, she could drink beer and smoke cigarettes, pretty much do anything that any young kid would only dream of being able to do. And there's no reason why she would believe he was anything but the coolest dad ever. But within their household in Phoenix, Arizona, Alissa was having a completely different experience. To Michael, Alissa was a troublemaker, a moron, and incapable of doing anything right. And where Sarah was allowed to come and go as she pleased and have a lot of freedoms, Alissa was heavily monitored and under very

strict rules. So much so, and this may surprise you if you don't know anything about this case, but Michael actually hid surveillance cameras inside the house to keep an eye on Alyssa's every move. And this is very creepy and disturbing, but there was a camera hidden inside a vent in their living room that would capture moments, intimate moments between Alyssa and her boyfriend. And it didn't stop there. Michael also tapped her phone and recorded every single phone conversation that she had.

It was every bit as bad as it probably sounds and honestly probably worse. And to this day, Michael stands by his actions. He said that because she drank and experimented with weed and was basically a normal teenager that she was troubled and needed his guidance. And there really wasn't any part of Alyssa's life that was truly her own. Even when she was in high school and got a job at Jack in the box, Michael would stalk her to make sure that she was where she said she was. I mean, there was literally no trust, and I personally believe that Alyssa could have been, you know, the perfect child, and Michael still would have treated her this way.

And I say that because Sarah had a completely different experience, even though she was only a few years younger than her, and doing technically the same bad things in Michael's eyes, Michael didn't care at all. He even encouraged it. And truth be told, Michael even convinced Sarah for a long time that her sister was in fact troubled. Sarah was manipulated to believe that Alyssa deserved these strict rules because she was bad and that she was treated better because she was good. And Sarah is the first to admit that she and Alyssa didn't always get along and she was kind of on her dad's side. They were sisters. I mean, I get it. I have a little sister and we're about the same age difference as the two of them

and sister's fight. They tattle tail and they make each other's lives harder than it needs to be, but looking back now, Sarah sees that all Alyssa was ever trying to do was protector from their father. Protector from the man that not only spied on her every word and every move, but also protector from the man who was molesting her. To this day, Michael denies molesting Alyssa, and it can't be proven 100 percent, but if I'm being honest in my opinion, his actions don't align with someone who is innocent. First of all, a year before Alyssa went missing,

Michael himself called up CPS and told them, oh, by the way, if my daughter ever calls you guys to say I molested her, she's lying. Which what innocent person does that? Second of all, he had Alyssa sign contracts, literal contracts where she had to sign and confirm that he never molested her. I'm sorry, what? What father? What parent? He thinks of something like that, unless they are trying to protect themselves. But like I said,

Michael denies these allegations. I also want to play you a short home video that Sarah recorded when she was a child that I think really puts everything into perspective Not only does Alyssa say outright that Michael is a pervert, but you can see firsthand how he treated her and how he spoke to her With the red button. Why? Hit the red button now. I don't want to I don't want to Hit the red button. I don't know. I don't know. I don't record. Hit the red button. No. I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a pervert. That was wrong. Damn. Hey.

Hey. Hey. You're circling me the camera now. And you're still recording. You sir, give me the camera now. And you're still recording. And Lissa is stupid, more on. Lissa would not have called Michael a pervert for no reason. And looking back, Sarah believes that this was her way of trying to protect her sister,

trying to warn her about the type of person that their father was. The type of person that their father is. Now, I don't have time today to get into every single example of abuse that Alyssa endured, but there is a lot, and I encourage you to do further research on this case. But now I'm going to jump forward to May 17, 2001. The last day Alyssa was seen. It was a Thursday, and it was the last day of school for students at Paradise Valley High School where Alyssa was a junior. And the day was completely normal

up until about 11 a.m. when Michael pulled Alyssa out of school early. And according to his version of events, which mind you, didn't even become public to the family until years later, he pulled Alyssa out of school early to get lunch. Michael says that at this lunch, he and Alyssa got into a big argument about her freedom for lack thereof. He claims that afterwards he dropped her off at home,

which is when she stormed off into her bedroom. That was the last time he saw her, and then he went out to go run some errands and then pick Sarah up from school. And by 5 p.m., when Sarah and Michael got home, Alyssa was gone. And it was actually Sarah, who went into Alyssa's room and realized that something was wrong. Alyssa normally kept her room very neat, but there were things scattered out across her bed, and one of those items was a note. And this note says, Dad and Sarah, when you dropped me off at school today, I decided that I really am going to California. Sarah, you said you didn't want me around. Look, you got

it. I'm gone. That's why I saved my money. Dad, I took $300 from you. Alissa, now I could go on and on about this note. There are many strange things about it. However, for the sake of time today, I just want to focus on one major concern when it comes to that note. That makes me Sarah and many others believe that something is off about it. Melissa mentions taking $300 from her dad, but she had $1800 saved up and she didn't take any of that. Now, that is a lot of money, especially back in 2001 for a teenager to have saved and it remained completely untouched. And if she were running away, you know for sure that she would have taken that money with her. But Alyssa's bank account was never accessed.

Her social security number has never been used. Now it is important to note that this note was written by Alyssa. There's no doubt about that. I mean, it was her handwriting, but there are several more things about it that make Sarah and others believe it was actually written weeks if not months before. And because Alyssa was only 17 and Michael, who was a former police officer, reported her as a runaway, the local authorities never did anything to search for her. Michael never made them believe that she was at risk, and I believe that this was intentional and strategic. I mean, it obviously would have looked bad if he had never reported her missing,

but I think he did it in a way to make sure that police weren't worried. And after all, Alyssa did actually have an on living in California who she did at one point plan to move in with. But here's what's crazy, even though Michael downplayed the whole thing to the police, at home, he was acting totally different. At home, he was freaking out, he was acting terrified. He was saying things like he knew something bad happened to her that he knew she was dead. So just a completely different story than he was telling police. And Michael even said one week after Alyssa went missing, he got a mysterious phone call around 5am from someone who he believed was Alyssa. He said that the sound was muffled, but that

she told him to leave her alone. Michael swears up and down that this call was from Alyssa. He even ended up suing the phone company to get access to records so he could prove that the call was real, that it really did come from a payphone in California. Therefore, proving somehow that Alyssa was still alive. But here's the thing, anyone could have made that call. In the days following Alyssa's disappearance, Michael made several trips out to California where he said he was looking for Alyssa. But Sarah and many others believed that he paid someone to make this call so he could have some type of proof that she was still alive. Also, think about it. For a man who records every phone call that he has and records with video, everything that happens in the home, it's very interesting that he has and records with video, everything that happens in the home.

It's very interesting that he has no recording of that call out of years and years of recording every single phone call that came into that house. That was the one day, the one call that he says his recording device wasn't working. And not just that, but think about the home surveillance footage too. You would think the first thing he would do is turn in the home surveillance footage from the day she disappeared to the police, but he didn't. Instead, he says that he looked through them himself and found, quote, nothing of value. Now by the time that police did end up getting all their surveillance footage, there was

no recordings on the day of May 17th 2001. Convenient. Now moving forward a little, I want to talk about Sarah's relationship with her father during all of this. Because for many years, she actually stood by his side and supported him despite rumors that he had something to do with a list's disappearance. And I mean, just try to put yourself in her shoes. Imagine your father, the man that you love, the man who gave you everything was being accused of murdering your sister. You wouldn't want to believe it. You would try to convince yourself that it wasn't true.

And that's what Sarah did. She believed her father was innocent because she couldn't imagine. There was any world in which he wasn't. And it really wasn't until after the first 2020 special came out that she started to realize the very sad truth that her father was likely the person responsible for what happened to her sister. But before I talk about 2020, there is one major thing that I need to recap for you guys before we move forward. And that is the raid of Michael Turnie's home in 2008. This raid, which happened in December of that year, was supposed to be a search in connection with the disappearance of Alissa. However, what they ended up finding was something much different. In Michael's home, police found 19 high-calibre assault rifles, two handmade silencers, a van full of gasoline cans,

and 26 pipe bombs filled with gunpowder and roofing nails. And on top of that, they found a manifesto called diary of a madman martyr, where he outlined his plan to avenge Alyssa's death and kill two men from the union who he says were responsible for killing Alyssa. Michael was arrested and eventually pleaded guilty to possessing 26 unregistered pipe bombs and was sentenced to 10 years in federal prison. He was sentenced in 2010 and only served 7 of those 10 years. Next, I want to quickly talk about the first 2020 special that aired, and many of you probably heard of Alyssa's story through the 2020 special. And if you did, you might remember that

Sarah defended her father during it. I want to make it extremely clear that this is not how she feels now. She has totally changed her mind on the situation. And I want to let you know that she felt and continues to feel exploited and unsupported by the makers of that show. Not once have they actually put in any effort to search for a list's remains. There has been no search ever done. Not only that, but they have time after time given Michael a platform to speak out about his innocence. And this just feels very wrong to her. This is something that her and I talk about

in detail in our interview, because recently they aired a second special on the case. And there is a lot to be said about that. But now let's talk about what happened recently, the trial and Michael's acquittal. If you have been following List's case over the years and you have followed Sarah's journey, you know that all she wants is justice for her sister. Nothing is going to change what happened, but seeing her father be held accountable and behind bars for what she believes he did to her sister would give her some type of

peace. So in August of 2020, Michael was arrested. This was such an exciting time. It was a huge victory for Sarah after all the work that she's put in. I mean, she has really led this fight. He was charged with second degree murder and it kind of felt like there was a light at the end of the tunnel. But like many of you probably already know, it didn't go the way that any of us hoped. In July of this year, Michael Turnie was acquitted of his charges after five days

of testimony presented by the prosecution. The defense never even presented their case. They filed what is known as a motion for acquittdle, basically meaning that they wanted the judge to acquit him because the state didn't present sufficient evidence to support the charges at a hand. And the judge agreed, which allowed Michael to walk away as a free man. And when this happened, I can't even tell you how shocked I was. And you'll hear Sarah say during our interview that the judge ultimately made the right decision, even though it wasn't the decision she wanted. The state truly failed Sarah, they failed Alissa, and it's all because they weren't prepared to take this case to trial, but they did it anyway. Sarah was left completely in the dark since the day her father was arrested, and was only given three opportunities to speak with the people representing her sister's case.

And during those meetings, she was even told that another case they were working on took higher priority. And because they didn't know her case and because they didn't give it the attention it deserved, Michael is a free man today. It's extremely frustrating to see. He has created a YouTube channel now. He's been given opportunities like the 2020 to have a platform and be the victim. But through all of this, I have just been amazed by Sarah's strength. She's truly one of the strongest people I know. I am so honored that she wanted to come on my show. I'm honored to call her one of my friends that she is really one of the most amazing people I've ever met. And without further ado, let's hop into our interview.

Okay, and we're back in the studio with Sarah. So we aren't gonna be retelling the entire story from start to finish obviously because we've done that before, but there are a lot of things that happen recently that I'd like to get into and hear your experience. So starting off with your father, Michael Turnin, was arrested in August 2020 and charged with second

pre-murder of your sister. What was that experience like for you when the arrest happened? Oh, insane. I didn't know what to do with myself. You know, I got a call basically from Detective Anderson who I love. He's absolutely wonderful and he was kind of like, you know, we arrested your dad and, you know, you did a kid and it was this like beautiful and I have the audio that I can't wait to play some day, but it was this like beautiful full circle moment because it, you know, the Phoenix PD never really confirmed their meeting with me where they told me to get media. They've always really kind of shied away from that part, which I do understand why. And so there was always this tension of like, are they mad at me? Like, I don't really understand because there's not a lot of transparency there. And then we had

that call and it was like, okay, yes, like everything was confirmed. It's exactly what they wanted to me to do. Just like they told me in that meeting and you know, Detective Anderson really watched me grow up, you know, he met me when I was like 17. And so it was a really cool moment. And I mean, obviously I was in shock, right? I didn't know what to do. I like ran to like post that update because I was like, what do I do? I, you know, I really, and I did,

I wanted to be the person to break the story. I was like, I wanna tell everybody that like we did it, you know, because it was this huge collective effort in my mind between, you know, hundreds of thousands. I mean, a million people on TikTok or whatever, fighting for Alyssa. And so I just wanted people to know like we did it, this movement, this whole media thing really can work and at least push things forward and get it into the public eye and get more resources

on it. So I was shocked, I was terrified, I was confused. After a certain point, honestly some guilt set in, it's a really conflicting feeling to one be like, yes, this is finally getting justice. And then to be like, but that's my dad. And I did play a role in putting him in jail. And even, you know, I think he's a monster. And I know that he's not a good person. But as my dad, it's still really, you know, I had a lot of conflicting feelings. It's a hard, weird thing to deal with. Because when you were growing up, you were very close with your dad and really thought

the world of him, you know, you had all these freedoms and he was the cool dad, you know, it wasn't the experience for Alyssa, but I'm sure there, I mean, it's only natural for you to have moments where you feel like some type of guilt. Yeah, well, and you know, our mom died when we were a little. I was four and Alyssa was about eight. And then Alyssa was gone when I was 12. And Alyssa very much played that mother role for me. And then it was just me and my dad.

And he didn't work. I didn't have to go to school. And so we spent a lot of time together. We would go to the movies. And he would buy me scratcher tickets. And I really did think that he was that cool dad time together, we would go to the movies and you know he would buy me scratcher tickets and I really did think that he was that cool dad when when I get older you know if I was stuck at a party he'd come give me a ride home no questions asked. What I didn't understand was that it wasn't love you know what I mean he was really just trying to in my mind distract me from everything you know

he gave me the master bedroom he let me have a mini fridge that he filled with beer for me and my friends And I thought that was love and now that I'm an adult and I care for children in my life I'm like that's that's not love. Yeah a lot of emotions throughout this whole thing obviously and your last Conversation with him before the arrest was it when you had called him and I believe you are in a Starbucks? So I actually the last time I ever spoke with him was the first call I play on voices for justice and that was in 2019 after crime con because funny enough 2020 wanted to have him back on but they would only do it if he would interview and so I was like hey Like this is a great chance to do this a story out there You say you want to work for her. You say that you want to find her.

Please come do this show with me. And that phone call ends with him basically hanging up on me and saying that he won't do it. But that was the last time I spoke to him. Previously, I did meet with him at a Starbucks in person, right? Okay. To get that face to face. And that's where he said, come to my deathbed. And I'll give you all the honest answer.

You want to hear her? And he also said that he would confess if the state gave him lethal injection within 10 days of the confession. And they did not allow that to be part of the trial. Correct. No. So what happened was the state fought for that audio to make it in, and they won, and they never used it.

Right. Okay. They never used it. It's so frustrating. And what's even more frustrating is the defense brought it up and opened that door for them. The defense started grilling me about it. They were like, in that conversation, your father says that he didn't do it, right? He repeatedly told you he didn't do it. And I ended up telling Jamie Jackson. I was like, just play the audio. Why are we debating about it? The audio is admissible. Just play it.

It's not what I think about it or what you think about it. Let the jury hear it. Let the judge hear it. And they never want to allow it. Yeah. Wow. That's incredibly frustrating. And did you ever reach out to you after the arrest? My father? Yeah. No. Not once. No. Okay. He never made an attempt to contact you or like put out a public statement or anything like that. No, only now does he do media and talk about how he loves me and while secretly commenting online, terrible things about me.

So no, he's never reached out, not personally. [♪ Music playing in background, no one can tell you what to say. [♪ Music playing in background, no one can tell you what to anyone that might be confused, sort of where things went wrong with the trial and your experience and maybe talk more about your experience with the trial from start to finish, what that was like, sure it was very bittersweet intense. It was the worst, it was the only way I can put it. A lot of it was because I was alone. I went to every court hearing by myself, which was really hard. I was lucky enough to have defenders of children on local Arizona nonprofit help me. They reached out and said, you're going to

want a victim's rights attorney and they were extremely correct about that. So I had a wonderful gentleman named David Newstone who was with me the entire time and explained everything and without him I would have Fallen to pieces. I mean, there's no other way to describe it other than traumatic from start to finish and it became very clear that my father and his defense team were Specifically targeting me and I'm not just saying that I didn't feel picked on that's what my lawyer told me that's what the state told me It's very obvious. Yeah, I mean one of the first motions they filed was to take down my podcast, take down all my social media, take down everything I've ever done. And on the flip side, they didn't ask for the missing Alyssa podcast to be taken down.

It was any other content. It was just me. And they repeatedly filed motions. My, luckily, I had defenders of children and we fought back. And I have a bright to free speech. And so I did win that. I was never legally not allowed to talk about the case.

I was advised that it was an elicit best interest to stay quiet during the trial. So that's why I did that. We were filing motions and citing videos on TikTok. I made about other cases. And my lawyer was like, you can't prevent her entire career what she's doing now. She has a right to talk about this.

So we won that. The next fight was they tried to say that I was an agent of the police, that I was working with police to get him arrested and who they cited the 2017 Starbucks meeting and they tried to say that I was directly commanded by police to do it. Yeah, which is not the case. And I went to police and I was like, Mike, me up, put me undercover, like, let to do it. Yeah, which is not the case.

And I went to police and I was like, Mike me up, put me undercover like, let's do this. And they were like, that's not how this works. We can't do that. So they tried to fight that I was an agent of the state that I was working with the state and the police. And I'm like, after the police gave me such a hard time, like, how can anybody believe that?

But of course, the judge also said, we don't believe that. I don't believe Sarah acted as an agent of the state in any capacity, and we won that fight, because they were trying to keep that audio out. That was the big thing. There's a huge fight about that audio, because it's so damning, which is why it's so upsetting that they didn't use it. And then I've never talked about this. This is brand new information. What happened as a part of the trial, too, is the man who confessed to killing Alyssa that did the false confession, Thomas Heimer. He reached out to me during the trial. He did. And he wrote me a letter and he called me almost every single day. And I at one point asked the state if I could block his number and they said, no, you cannot block his number right now. Just let him call you, don't answer. So every day I was seeing they're watching these calls

come from this Tennessee prison and just like crying my eyes out. Because in his letter, he wrote that he had information that he would only tell me. So the defense then flipped that and said, Sarah is working with Thomas Heimer to frame Michael Turnie. Oh my God. So I was like, I was an agent in the state. I was working with Thomas Heimer to do something shady. It was every of you. And with Thomas Heimer, they were insane. Exactly.

They attacked me on all fronts. So of course, I never responded to that letter. I like, whenever I get things in a list's case, it's like, hot potato. I don't want it. You take it. The police, the state, during the trial, I don't want it. And of course, we won that fight too, because it's ridiculous. Yeah. And for those of you who don't know, Thomas Heimer, he had claimed to have killed Alyssa at one point.

And, you know, they brought him in for questioning and they started bringing up pictures of her because all he had was the age progressed picture of her. Yes. And so when he saw actual pictures of her, he said, I wouldn't have picked her in a lineup. And I don't think, you know, he totally backtracked on that. He had also claimed to have killed JC Dewgarde. Yeah. And that was before she was recovered.

So, you know, he's not a credible source in any way. Exactly. I mean, he flipped a lot back and forth. We weren't sure if he was going to come testify. And eventually he told people something like, not verbatim, nobody quote me, like, I don't remember, I don't have the cortox in front of me. But it was something like, if they try to get me to testify in this trial, I'm going to start stabbing everyone I see.

Oh, my God. It was just, it was so intense and so drama-filled. And it was so annoying, to be honest, because it's all drama and it's all fluff and it wasn't nobody was focusing on the facts of the case because all these things started coming up right Thomas Heimer, all the media stuff, somebody even called in and claimed that Alyssa was alive in some other state and that I knew about it and was framing my dad and so they had to go like give this woman a DNA test, it wasn't Alyssa of course. It was so traumatizing because there's just one thing after the other. And it was mostly directed at me. And it like, you know, I never chose to be a part of this. I mean,

of course, I made this choice when the police told me to get media, but I did that. They're prompting, you know what I mean? It's, I never wanted to be this like public figure or yeah, front facing like this. And did you really ever have a choice? I mean, she's your sister. What else are you going to do? Right. And no, I didn't feel like I had a choice.

And you know, and no shade to my brothers, but nobody else was stepping up. It had to be me. Nobody else was willing to do it. Yeah. And it's that's come with so much trauma for you to deal with. And it's it's truly amazing to me how well you've handled all of that, especially having someone like Thomas Hymer calling it that's got to feel terrifying yeah it was and he has you know my home address

because I wrote him years ago for the podcast because believe it or not I really was trying to make it you know as unbiased as possible and so I wanted his take on it we never ended up connecting and we wrote a few letters but we never had this like formal interview that I was going for, but he knew my address. And so, yeah, getting the letter in the mail, and eventually they did allow me to block the number, so that was good. But just hearing the voice mails every day and waking up to like five missed calls from Tennessee or whatever, there was no escape. And again, being the only family member really involved in the trial process.

That was all me reviewing the motions, getting the motions every day almost answering questions, but it was, I mean, I always described it as just unbearable because it was unbearable. What was the first day in court like? Well, I mean, it was easier when I was just like motions, right? Because I showed up for everything, every single thing. I was not, because I didn't want to listen to be unrepresented. The thought of nobody being there for her just like shattered my heart. And I kept thinking of her like she would never let me be alone ever. And she didn't. And that's why she stayed. So it was horrible. It was absolutely horrible. And when the trial started,

it was just even worse. And most of the times I just ice out there and just cried the whole time during the trial. Oh yeah, especially when it was just, you know, things about her memory and even even the second when they were like, you know, Michael Turnier being, you know, a charge of second degree murder, I just I just lost it. It's hard. It's hard to hear. No matter how much I think he did it, and no matter how much I think he's a monster, it still just hurts. Of course. What was it like seeing him in the courtroom? Awful. I was not supposed to look at him, so I didn't. But the first time that we were in court together, I was told that he was glaring at me the entire time and there was one point where my lawyer actually called for I forget But it's what it's called but it's when all the lawyers and the judge go in like a back room to talk about something and so it was just me and my dad in the courtroom and there might have been

Maybe somebody from the media. I can't remember but he started speaking into the microphone about his innocence. And my lawyer came out and, you know, he was like, you know, that he's just trying to rile you up. You know that he's just talking to you, right? And again, it was so helpful to have the lawyer there, because I'm just full of emotions and not sure how to process things. But he was like, he's doing, he's trying to torment you. Don't let it get to you. That would be so hard. I don't know how you were able to do that. I mean, you're so focused on the mission that, you know, you were able to find that strength, but it would, that's hard. I don't think that's something that many people could could do. In my mind, it was like, it was so black and white. It's not about me, it's about

Alyssa. It's not about me, it's about Alyssa. And that's really what kept me going. You know, what's the right thing to do? I'm so black and white for me. And that's one thing I've always really respected about you too, is you've always been so focused on that from the beginning that it's aboutless a first and that, you know, protecting her, protecting the story, that always is your first priority. What was the moment during the trial

where you started to feel like maybe this isn't gonna go the way that I'm hoping it's going to go. So I mean, if I'm honest, I had my suspicions early on when they just weren't interested in talking to me. And I shouldn't say not interested. They kept pushing it off. So what happened was right before Alyssa's trial, my same prosecutor was trying the Brian Patrick Miller case, you know, they kept telling me we have that case to worry about. We'll get to you when we can. We have that case to worry about.

And so I kept asking my employer, I was like, I don't feel like it's a priority. And he's like, you know, it's just kind of the way that these things go. And early on, I gave them my outline. Actually, I have this like 200 page document where I outline the entire case file. Wow.

I'm just like this at 100 pages. It's insane. I mean, I documented everything I could just because I have a terrible memory and I can't keep that in my mind. And I wanted them to just have everything. And of course, I was like, you don't have to listen to me. I understand if you think it's biased, but here's my outline. And as we got closer and closer to trial

and they were done with the Brian Patrick Miller case, it became very clear that they just weren't familiar with the case. In one of the last meetings we had, they were asking me questions that I had submitted to them three years prior. And the most, which is, you know, I get it. If they're busy and they, you know, maybe that's what they do, right? Maybe they can get up to speed on a case in a few weeks. I don't know.

I'm not a prosecutor. I'm not an expert. Of course, I had my suspicious. It doesn't sound right, but what I kept being told in that last meeting or whatever meeting it was close to the end Was that would be great, but it's too late to admit that now and these are things that I told them three years ago Things like my father's past history of sexually abusing family members all these women came forward to talk about and have spoken about it. And they were like, well, that would have been great, but it's too late now. And I'm like, I told you this three years ago, what are you talking about? It's got to be so frustrating. It was awful. You know, and they kept asking really rudimentary questions. The first time that they told my story about what I said happened on the day list and went missing. They actually just pulled like a local newspaper article and cited that. And I was like, all of this is wrong.

Like this says that I walked like 10 miles home, which is not correct, just inaccuracies. And I'm like, you know, why would you choose to pull this? And they're like, well, it's not important. Don't worry about it. And I think I sent you a text where they asked for pictures of the list. And I asked you did tell me about this. Yeah, can we please talk about that? Yeah, I uploaded a bunch to Google Drive because they asked, you know what I mean? They we want to bring her to life and show how wonderful she was. So of course,

I'm like, here's all these pictures. And then I get this email. And I don't think they meant to kind of forward it to me. I was like in a chain because the, you know, the prosecutor is very old. I believe he's in his 80s and you know he had problems with technology. I'm not trying to like age him or whatever but throughout the entire trial, I had problems with technology. So I have to believe this was an accident. I hope it was it's yeah, let's hope. It basically said the person who was pulling the pictures was like, well, I found these two and I didn't want to dig any deeper. And they were the worst pictures of a Lissa. Like one was literally just like degraded quality. Like the picture was

like all scratched up. The one of her and her friends. And then one she looks like she was like, it was a prom photo, but her eyes were all weird. And we knew that they were going to attack her character. And I was like, she looks like high in this photo. Like, can we use any other photo? And they never used the photos I sent to them. They just use those too. Even the night before trial, I'll never forget. I was obviously just trying to like chill and go to bed early and like stay in a calm place and I get a call and they're like how late are you staying up tonight? Like what are you talking about? Well, they want to ask you questions. They're just wondering like

what time you're going to bed, what time they can call you until to ask you questions. They're just wondering like, what time you're going to bed, what time they can call you until to ask these questions. And the questions were like, what's the family structure? Like who? Which brother has which parent? And it's like, it was like doing a list of 101 right before the trial. And they were like cramming. And even in that last meeting, he said, it's, it's not looking good. It's not looking good. Kind of set me up, I think, to lose. And I looked at him and I said, why do you even take this case? And he kind of, in my opinion, kind of got a little flustered and was like, I wouldn't have taken this case if I didn't think we could win. And I, yeah, I was not confident going into that trial because I knew that they didn't know this

case. They seem to so unorganized. I mean, to be asking about the family structure right before. That's just like the absolute basics. And there's so much information out there that they easily could have put that together themselves. And the defense knew. The defense, they did a great job. As much as I don't enjoy them personally and I don't understand how they can, you know,

say what they said about my sister, they did their homework and it showed what were some of the things they said about your sister that were upsetting to you? Everything. I mean, it was just a smear campaign against her. I've never seen such vile words about a 17-year-old even on Reddit about Alyssa or, you know, I mean, my god, nobody has framed her in that way and they just tried to make her out to be this terrible wild kid who didn't care about anybody or anything. And it's just not the truth. And unfortunately, you know, my family was fighting for, you know, at the end, my brothers did kind of come in. I, I, in long story, I begged them. I started crying.

And I was like, they're keeping me out of the trial. They're telling me that they have to keep me in the dark and that they can't tell me anything that's going on because of how harshly dad's team has Attacked me and I'm like literally sobbing to them like somebody has this stuff in it has to be somebody that's not me And nobody would help me until the final like the end So my brother comes in, you know, and it's just not the way things work and he's like We need an expert. We need somebody to explain why Alyssa acted this way And I wish I'd thought of it because it's a great idea. You know what I mean? I just I was told to sit back and let the state do what they're gonna do.

I don't get to tell them what to do, which is true. So I would have loved an expert to come in and talk about perhaps why she was displaying those behaviors. I mean for my work with kids in foster care, she was showing clear signs of trauma and abuse. So the way they painted her was awful. You know, in one motion, one of the most traumatic motions, I had to basically read an argument about how they thought Alyssa didn't love me, like love me enough to stay, like it was awful.

It's a shame though that the state didn't match their level of preparation. It was just such a failure. Yeah, well, and that's the thing is, you know, I agree with the judge that the state did not present their case. My argument is they could have. There were so many things that were admissible that never made it in, and that's the most frustrating part, the what ifs.

You know, they kept telling us, when we get to closing arguments, we're going to bring all that up. You know, we'll put you back on the stand if we need to and none of that happened. What were some of the things that were admissible that they just completely ignored? So the big thing was, well, there's lots of big things, I guess, but they basically cut the witness list, like in half. Like two of my brothers didn't testify. A lot of her friends didn't testify. My cousin who saw the video, who says he saw the video of Alyssa, new, don't film with a friend. I think they

just like couldn't find him up north in northern Arizona and just kind of left it at that. Like they never went to like visit or like, so they just dropped it. So half the witness list never even made it to trial. They just kept cutting witnesses left and right. You know, even one of her closest friends, Katie was never called to testify and she was shocked, you know, and was she willing to?

Oh, absolutely. Everybody was so willing to talk for Alyssa. Yeah, they just cut that witness list in half, which I was never really explained to me. So many of the stories my dad told about what happened to Alyssa also never made it to trial. Like he gave John Alyssa's ex-boyfriend or whenever her boyfriend at the time. He gave her a number and said, Alyssa's at her aunt's house, you can call her here. And he, I guess, called and called and called. And I don't know what number it was.

Maybe it was a pay phone or something. It wasn't my aunt's number, like, but that poor guy just thinking that Alyssa hated him and left. I mean, the same with me, right? My dad said, you know, Alyssa left. Alyssa left you guys. So they actually prepared my brother James to talk about this walk that he went on with Alyssa where she was describing the abuse that happened in the house. and they never went forward with that. They never asked him about that, which

blows my mind. I know that there's hearsay issues and I'm not an expert, but that was the plan. You know what I mean? So we were kind of left like, why are you leaving these things out? Nothing was explained to us. You know, I talked about the audio of my dad saying that he would confess, saying, you know, come to the deathbed, and I'll give you all the honest answers you want to hear. I was waiting for that. I think it's one of the most damning pieces of evidence in this case. Can you explain that more for people who aren't familiar with that part of the story?

Yeah. So, in 2017, my father got out of prison for his pipe bomb charges for being a literal domestic terrorist and wanting to kill multiple people. And so I never spoken to him outside of a prison line and so long, right? His all calls in prisoner recorded. And so I was like, I'm going to meet him in person where there's no security guards. There's nobody watching.

I mean, I was recording and unfortunately for him, he taught me the Arizona's one party can send state with recording. So that's on him. And my phone was right there. If he didn't know I was recording, I would be shocked. But I just sat him down and was like, let's talk about it. You know what I mean? And we get to this point in the conversation. He's like, you really think I did it? I'm like, yeah, I do. I was like, what other explanation is there? Like you, you've never given me a straight

answer. And the whole time he's just like taunting me and being a total jerk. And this is who he really is. You know what I mean? This is the real him, not what people see and interviews and on camera and his now YouTube channel. And he says, come to the deathbed and I'll give you all the honest answers you want to hear. And then later in the conversation, he says, you know, Sarah, I'd admit to anything if the state agreed to give me lethal injection within 10 days.

And I was like, okay, do it. And he was like, really? Really? You want me to die or whatever? And I was like, okay, do it. And he was like, really? Really? You want me to die or whatever? And I was like, I don't want the truth with you know what I mean? And he was like, so you want me to confess to something I didn't do. And I was like, I didn't say something you didn't do. So I think it was a really telling interview, you know, most of the time

he just disparages Alyssa in it. And you can just tell he's so cold. And you know he even even said something like oh yeah because you and Alyssa were that close huh? Like that was my only mom like of course we were you you were the adult letting her do my birthday parties and creating Christmas for me you think we weren't close like give me a break and she's the way to hurt you. Yeah oh exactly exactly so that's the context behind that audio.

And of course, I wanted that to play. And I would have loved for that other conversation or he refused to do media too. You know what I mean? Like I already talked about the other victims, right? Being told it was too late. And there was actually a woman that came forward in the last days before trial and said,

he assaulted me, I wanna talk about it. And they were like, it's too, I want to talk about it. And they're like, it's too late, we can't admit it. I don't, you know, I can't vouch for the rules of court, they know better than I do, but as just a normal person in common sense, it's just like so frustrating. That's the justice system is about legalities and about rules of law. It's not always about the truth or common sense. And that's what hurts so much. Oh, there was also, so I found this video. So one of the parts that the defense was trying to say, you know, they were talking about all these hidden cameras because there were allegations that there were hidden cameras in a list's room, which

I believe. And they said, well, there was no red light. There was no red light. So there couldn't have been a camera. And I, camera. And I said, my dad covered it. He would put black electrical tape over the red lights that show that you're recording on it, especially in old school camera, like in the 90s or whatever. And actually through trying to find images of Alyssa for the court, I found this little piece of a video

and it's Alyssa's friends and her jumping from the trampoline into our pool. And her friends are like, I don't want to be recorded. And it's obviously it's recording. Melissa looks at the camera and says, look, there's no red light. He's not recording. It's fine. And that's because he covered the light. And so I was like, why didn't we use that to contest those points?

They also didn't use the interview from my father's ex-girlfriend, Melissa's teacher who, Melissa said, I'm having sex with my dad, which is insane. It's a police document. Why can't we talk about it? I can't believe they didn't use that. There was also, so for the first time ever, a girl named Shay grew up next to us.

And we were like, we were kind of all three sisters. Like she was right in between age wise between me and Alyssa. And she saw everything. And they decided that they wouldn't admit two of her stories because they were too old. These stories of hercing abuse but there was one where the judge was like I would probably admit that for you to the state and it was about Shay seeing our father push Alyssa against a wall really aggressively and scream at her for kissing boys and

she was probably like 14 or 15 maybe and the state was like no we're not going to fight for that it's okay judge we don't need to use that. Why do you think they did that? I don't know. I mean I can't say for sure. I think the bottom line is they did not know this case well enough. You know what I mean they probably didn't even know how close she was to the family. And how much time did they actually have to prep? I mean, after the Brian Patrick Miller trial, I mean, maybe weeks, I don't remember the exact timeline, but I was told everything was being pushed off

for that trial. And so I guess maybe not long, in my mind, I would think the whole three years, right? I mean, I'm saying. But yeah, I mean, I basically got the call, and it was like the Brian Patrick Miller trials over. We're going to start gearing up and it was just a few weeks before. Has this whole experience made you feel less confident in the justice system overall? Yes, I'm sure that's a dumb question, obviously, but not a dumb question. Yeah, it absolutely does. And it's scary, right? I even spoke to the prosecutor and I was like, what does it take for a 17 year old girl

to get justice for being abused? She told teachers, she told friends, she told a family, she told adults in her life. And she was so threatened to not go to CPS or the police, because our dad would tell us, you're going to be split up. And so I'm like, does it literally take a child having to go to the police to get justice? Like they can't confide in their teachers or just, yeah, it's insane. So I, yeah, absolutely. I have a big lack of faith in the justice system now.

What was testifying, like scary? I mean, you know, I was, I didn't get any prep really, you know, I did ask like, should I be looking at you? Should I be looking at the jury? They were like, just do what comes natural. The biggest thing they told me is don't fight with the defense. Do not get argumentative with the defense. They actually told me that one of their strategies,

the only thing they told me about was they said, if the defense begins to attack you, we are not going to step in. We think it will make it look better for the jury. We think the jury will side with you the more they attack you, but it was awful. And Jamie Jackson just went after me like crazy. I think the most frustrating thing, and this is the only time where I started to speak back, was when he kept saying that I was lying. You know what I mean? Because my 2008, I think it was 2008,

interview with police is all based on information I gathered from when I was 12. And the police never really re-interviewed me. Their interviews are from like 2008, based on information when I was a child. And so of course, things have changed now that I'm almost 35, you know what I mean? Like, of my perception has, I think anybody looking back on their parents from age 12 to now, of course, you see things so different. Yes, yes. And of course that's where that famous line, where you lying then, are you lying now screaming

in my face, it was terrible. I don't like confrontation. And that's when I said, I was brainwashed. And that's true, that's how me and my siblings feel. My brother James even, you know, he likens it to a cult. He says, we're in the cult of Michael Turney. And looking back, that's really what it feels like. So, I mean, I knew I was going to be attacked,

but it was terrible. Did you have some like coping mechanisms or ways that you would try to deal with all this when you went home? Like, how did you know it? I mean, I just trying to stay calm. You know, if I'm honest, I went home and watched the cover every day and I was looking at what people were saying. I just, I wanted to know what the perception was and it was the same thing I felt, which was what is the prosecution doing? What is the state doing? What is happening?

I was fortunate enough that my fiance's family surrounded me with love and that's great. That was everything. I literally was like, no, it's fine, nobody needs to come. And they were like, you don't have a choice. We're gonna surround you with love because you will forever say that you're fine and you're not fine and we want to be there for you. I know I'm like getting choked up, but I'm... So I look back and I'm so grateful for that. I'm so grateful that you had that. It's so crucial. So let's talk about the day of the acquittal and what that was like when you went into court that day, did you have any idea that that was going to happen? No, we did believe that the state was going to rest their case even though my brother and I, my brother James and I were like put us back in the stand. You said

that we were going to talk all these things, we didn't talk about them and they didn't wanna do that. So we just thought that they were gonna rest their case and present closing arguments or whatever. And then all of a sudden, they do it. And the defense had filed many motions for a mistrial at this point. And so it's not gonna happen.

It hasn't happened the last four times or whatever. And then it did. And if I'm being honest, I didn't really know what it meant. I turned to my lawyers, like, is it over? And he was like, yeah. So we go back to this room with my lawyer and my brothers. And I was like, you know, what happened? And he's like, yeah, it's,

this means that it's over and your dad's free. He is gonna be released today. And that, yeah, it was, it was just, I, I think I was just in shock. I like, I'm getting tear-yied now, but I don't think I was just in shock. I'm getting tearied now, but I don't think I've ever cried over that part yet. It's hard because I, going from what happened with police

and I'm waiting so long to investigate, and then this investigation finally happened and then say, we know who did it. Too bad we can't do anything, get media, finally goes to trial, and then too bad. They didn't present their case well enough. I think I was cold and I was in shock and I wasn't ready to deal with it.

Yeah, I really can't imagine how truly shocking and heartbreaking that moment must have been for all of you. Can you explain to the audience what the acquittal meant and what, I mean, what is an acquittal for those who don't know? Yeah, so basically the case was thrown out. It was due to the state not presenting their case. I mean, in the 2020, they said it was because of lack of evidence. Right, and maybe I'm wrong.

This is the way it was explained to me. The state did not present their case, so they had to acquit. So maybe, I mean, I guess you could translate that to a lack of evidence, present it at the trial. I guess it's hard for me to admit, like, a lack of evidence because I just don't see a lack of evidence presented is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, obviously there's a Mount of evidence against your dad, but they didn't they didn't bring out what they needed to and right, but he wasn't like found innocent. That was not a thing and never went to never went to the jury. Yeah.

And from what I saw with the jury, I mean, they were taking copious notes. They were, you know, shaking heads, they were disgusted by a lot of it. You can tell. At least that was my interpretation of their faces. So yeah, I mean, it means that it's it's over basically. You know, and I'm consulting with some people to figure out what the next steps are. And I don't want to give out everything because I fully believe my father is, you know, watching everything I do. And I don't want him to come. Yeah, of course he is. I don't want him to know the next steps. You know what I mean?

But as far as I know, it's pretty much over. Unless they're able to bring up maybe some different charges. If perhaps a list of bodies found in another state, there could be something. He could be charged with there. But yeah, I mean for the most part, it's over. He's free. Do you think if he wasn't acquitted and things had moved forward But he would have been found guilty. Yeah, absolutely absolutely. I think that jury knew and you know if I'm being totally honest The jury was mostly women and I was like so excited for that because no no shade against men or whatever

But I think most women know you know some story of right? Either they were sexually abused or harassed or know someone who was. And I, you know, and again, from looking at their faces, I could tell that, you know, they just saw what was right in front of everybody. They were, you know, we weren't allowed to really talk about the sexual abuse allegations, but they were there. And they were, you know, it was very clear to read between those lines. What do you want people to take away from the trial? Because I know a lot of people followed it, You know, a lot of it was made public. Is there something that you want people to learn from this experience or, you know, just to take away overall? Yeah, I mean, I think first the justice system isn't always indicative of the truth. It's indicative

of who has a better lawyer and who can better play the laws really, you know, and not in every case, but certainly in this one. And one of the biggest things when I realized my dad was acquitted was I thought about the families. You know, those families fighting out there and I didn't want them to be discouraged, you know. I still believe him getting to court was a huge win. And even if we didn't get past the finish line, I just want families to realize that there is so much power and media attention and getting those resources, they come with media attention, right? When police departments and state prosecutors are kind of put on the spot of like, this case is everywhere, what are you going to do? More resources are allocated to those cases. So I want families to know that just because my you know, my dad wasn't found guilty,

that it's not all for nothing and that they need to keep fighting. In my mind, it's like, we, many of these families, we know the truth of what happened. We know all the things that don't make it to court, that don't make it to police reports even. So it's really like, keep fighting, don't be discouraged. That's what I want people to know. Yeah, I know that was something that you were really concerned about in the beginning, that this could discourage other families and afraid to take on the legal system because it can be scary. And it did. I saw a video of a family that was like, I'm so disappointed with this outcome. And it makes me worry about my family's outcome.

And I think that that's really hard to see. Well, I think, you know, at the end of the day, you've inspired so many of these families to the fact that you got there, you know, at the end of the day, you've inspired so many of these families to the fact that you got there, you know, and you were able to stand up there and testify and wasn't easy, but you were able to do it. And I think you've inspired so many more people and that fear is valid, but I don't think it will discourage people from seeking justice. You know, this is just one case

and unfortunately, I was handled terribly. They weren't prepared. They didn't take it seriously and that's not always the case, you know. Yeah, there are so many great prosecutors out there. There are. So many people that that work so hard for these cases. There are. And I wish so badly that you had a different team because it really could have been so different. Me too. [♪ Music playing in background, playing in background that too? Yeah, so I'm donating to defenders of children in Arizona. They're the organization that worked for me

or worked with me, but I actually knew them from when I worked with kids in foster care. So they do things like represent kids in foster care. They represent, you know, families that have been abused. And David is such a shark and such a wonderful person. It's funny because when it's a non-profit, I think people think, you know, it's gonna be this like,

you know, a bargain lawyer be this like, you know Bergen lawyer or whatever and he is a shark. He is excellent at what he does He's just has this heart of gold and he fights for these kids and these families so hard And he fought for me so hard So all the proceeds of that all the proceeds of my Patreon and merch throughout the end of the year are going to them Because I can truly never think them enough So all the proceeds from that update is is going to defenders because I can truly never think them enough. So all the proceeds from that update is going to defenders of children Arizona. That's amazing. I think that's that is so cool that you're doing that. And I'd really like to learn more about them. They sound like an incredible team.

Yeah. So moving on, I think something that we both really want to talk about is the 2020 special that aired recently. And I didn't watch it at first because I just felt angry. I finally did watch it. I know you still haven't seen it. I felt like I had to see what was presented and you know kind of see what was out there. And it was shocking to me. It was really frustrating to watch. The night that it aired, my family friend of ours reached out to me and was like, oh my god, I just saw you in 2020, so cool. And I'm texting him back and I'm like, yeah, I'm really upset about it. I'm good friends with Sarah and I was kind of explaining to him, you know, I cannot believe Michael was acquitted. And he goes, the stepfather? Because he's only halfway

through that at this point. And then I was so confused Like, does he, because the way he was saying it to me, it seemed like that was so out of the question for him. And then when I watched the episode myself, I'm like, of course he thought that. Because in the beginning, they made him look, in my opinion, like a good dad. Daddy is so worried about you. And, you know, it just, it completely gasped him up

in the beginning. And it's frustrating thinking about how many people maybe just saw the intro of that and didn't finish the episode and don't even know the truth obviously they did buy the end share a lot more but the fact that he was even interviewed how do you feel about that the fact that he was given that platform by 2020 yeah I mean obviously I don't like it. It's just gross to me. The thing about that is it's not that I don't want his side of the story out there. He has every right to tell his side of the story

where I get upset is that the main part of his story is disparaging Alyssa, who I think everybody forgets at the end of the day was a child. She's just turned 17. She was abused by this man her entire life. You know, and he abused me too. We were both abused. So it's everything I don't like in true crime.

The wild speculation, the sensationalism of it all. I hate playing that game of like, is he innocent or is he not? Let's just talk about the facts and they, you know, it's clearly for entertainment. It's what I always call like the old school true crime audience. Like the older group who grew up with these programs that were really sensational, the dun dun dun. The reenactment. It's so awful. I can't stand it. So I'm just I'm not into it. I don't think that it does a great job for anyone, usually telling those stories in that fashion. It's not entertainment and they take it as pure entertainment. And another thing that was so frustrating is I begged 2020 to do an update episode for years.

I spoke with them. I knew this girl Rachel, who was fantastic. She was always really lovely to me. And the whole time they said, we can't do it unless your dad talks. And then the second my dad was arrested, they said, we want to do this. We want to follow the court trial. We do it with us. And I'm like, well, now I can't.

You know what I mean? And then by the time the trial was over and they came back to me, I was like, I don't want't. You know what I mean? And then by the time the trial was over, and they came back to me, I was like, I don't want to. You know what I mean? It's a different fight now. I'm not fighting to get a list of media attention anymore. So thinking about doing that show, I was like, all it's gonna do is cause pain. It's not gonna help her.

I don't know how it's gonna be edited. There's no reason to put myself through that torment. My first experience with them was awful, and I was very honest with them about that. And so were most of Alyssa's friends and family. My aunt told them the same thing. She didn't want to be a part of it, neither did any of her friends that did the first episode.

So that's why they got so few people, really. Because everyone was telling them, no, nobody wanted to do it because they didn't think they had Alyssa's best interest at heart. And again, I have not watched the episode, but from what everybody tells me, I think it's true. They just, it was entertainment. Oh, totally. It was so, it was so salacious. And so can you explain more about what your experience was like in the first time that you worked with 2020? Yeah. So I had just turned like 19. It

was, you know, not long after my dad was arrested for the pipe bombs and all that. And they came to me and they said, we wanna feature your sister, you know what I mean? We wanna give her the spotlight she deserves. You know, we wanna hear your dad's side of the story because at this time I was still on my dad's side. I could not comprehend that he may have been involved. And so they told me it was gonna be all that Alyssa,

you know, not about my dad, blah blah blah. They came and interviewed me. They had me to the weirdest things. Like, because for anybody who, you know, not about my dad, blah blah blah. They came and interviewed me. They have the, like, they have me to the weirdest things. Like, because for anybody who may not know, we moved directly across the street at one point. So the house Alyssa went missing from was literally, you could see it out the front window or whatever we see it out the window or the door. So they said, can you look across the street and look sad?

I remember you telling me this. And at the time, I was like, whatever. Like it's TV, like I'm gay and like it's, you know, it's about a list so we're gonna get our name out there. And when the show came on, I was like, what the hell? Like it was all about how terrible my dad was, which looking back, like how else could you frame it? You know what I mean?

But it's the expectation they set for me. They told me it was not going to be that way. And then it was. And at that point, you were still supporting your dad. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. So I mean, my world was shattered. Looking back, I understand why they phrased the story that way. I don't understand why they couldn't be honest with me about it, because they weren't. I feel very deceived into doing that. And it just put a bad taste in my mouth. Well, I think you made the right decision not being part of it. And I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who watched it that are like, why is't Sarah here? There's got to be a reason, you know, to not hear from you. And it was

frustrating for me to watch and see how little credit you were given for all the work that you had done. I mean, I they said something it was like 30 seconds, but it was it was so focused on other people, including Atavia, which we will get into. Well, and I don't need the credit, right? Like, I don't need them to be like, Sarah, solve this or did this. No, of course you don't, but I think you deserve that. And I know that's not what you're in this for,

and that's not what you want. But like, I think you deserve that. I think it's an amazing story and inspiring to other people out there. And I think it should be highlighted more that when you're not getting that coverage or you know, you have a cold case or a case that's not being picked up or there's no movement going on that you can take it into your own hands, get on social media and it's inspiring and I think they missed that opportunity to share that

with the viewers. I just, I was frustrated for you. What was the reaction that you were getting from people online, random people online, but also people who are your supporters about the 2020 special? It was a lot of mixed reactions, most of it negative. It was why is nobody participating in this? Where is Sarah in all this? Did you ask Sarah to be involved,

which to be fair, yes, they did, I declined, but that was the biggest thing in people were like, this is so salacious. It's making him look, you know, to be involved, which to be fair, yes they did. I declined. But that was the biggest thing in people were like, this is so salacious. It's making him look, you know, to be innocent. In the beginning, it makes him look like, you know, yeah, he's better than he is. So the feedback wasn't good. And I was like, wow, I'm really not gonna, really not gonna watch this. And then, I wouldn't, well, and then the feedback was, why is this girl at Tavia like the star of the show? Didn't she hurt your family? And, you know, and I didn't even know she was going to be a part of it until I was told.

And that's what's so hard. That's my issue with it is they platform so many people that hurt Melissa. And that's what upsets me. Because I, in a way, signed up to be in the public. You know what I mean? I signed up for that. I can take criticism all day.

The second you mess was somebody I love, that's when I get really frustrated and really upset. Like, of course, don't hurt Alyssa. She was a child. And they really did make Atavia seem like the hero, and all of this. And honestly, I wouldn't have been so disturbed by it. Had it not been for the statement she made

right before trial. And the statements that I believe hurt Alyssa's case in the end. What were those statements? So such a long story, but Atavia gave an interview where she basically framed me as a monster. Like I was the worst person on the planet. She read like, you know, one side of our text messages, which was a friendship falling out. I know we can talk about that. But the biggest thing was she tried to say when we went to court over my right to talk about a list over this injunction against harassment, she tried to say that I lied under oath, you know, and I mean, that was the part that scared

me. It then because the state brought it up too, which blows my mind, like the fact that I had to deal, I'm like shaking right now, the fact that I had to do, it's so scary, I had to deal with this podcast drama in the middle of a list's trial was so disturbing to me, because for me, it seemed very clear that it was an attack on my credibility, like say I'm mean or whatever, that's one thing,

but to say that I lie under oath right before I'm supposed to testify for a Lissa is an attack on a Lissa. It's a clear attack on a Lissa. And that worried me so much. That made my anxiety a hundred times worse for the trial because I was like, wow, what if the jury hears this? And they don't think that what I'm telling about a Lissa

is true. I already know the defense is gonna attack me. And now there's these weird claims that I lie under oath and port. It just, and it confirmed my worst fears that she never cared about Alyssa. So let's explain who she is for people that don't understand and kind of your history here because I'm sure a lot of you have heard of the Missing Alyssa podcast and I know that that has sometimes been you know overshadowing the work that you're doing. When did she start that? Because that was when there wasn't much coverage on the case.

Yeah, so I mean, I had been working for a few years before that to get media. I worked with John Lorden before that. Yes. And I think it was about 2016 that she and actually this wonderful author, this New York Times bestselling author approached me and they wanted to do a podcast about Alyssa. And I told her this later on, I really didn't like her in that first meeting.

She was really, yeah, she was really aggressive. She'd asked me, do you think your dad really loves you? And like, at that time, I still had a hard time believing that my dad was going to go through with his domestic terrorism plot. So she asked, do you think your dad really wanted to kill all those people? And I was like, I don't know, I don't think so. And she was like, well, if your dad killed your sister, why wouldn't he kill other people? Just like very brash to the point. And the other woman was very, very kind and warm. And like, and I was like, oh, she has all these accreditations, right?

Atabia had like, I can't remember if she was still in turning and perhaps not graduated from college at that point yet, but she was very green in journalism. It was this author I wanted to work with. They said, we want to make this podcast about your sister and I was like, let's do it. I'm game for anything. I'm an open book. You know, my whole mission right now is getting media, so let's do it. And eventually the author, woman, dropped out.

And you know, a Tavi was like, it's just me and I was like, okay, let's do it. You know, I mean, no problem. So that's how it all started. They approached me and wanted to do this show. And I said, yes. And over the years, Octavian, I gained a really close friendship. I mean, it's certain, I would have called her my best friend. And I don't think that's crazy. You know, our text messages show that we were talking about so many things beyond Alissa. We were doing so many activities beyond Alissa. It was, it was a true friendship. Okay. And, and where did things

go south with her? It's hard to say. I think the friendship of it all really clouded my judgment. And I was so optimistic about this business when I was first in it. I was like, everybody wants to help and everyone's wonderful. And I love everyone.

I was like that too. Yeah, and I trusted her. At a certain point, I was doing so much for the podcast that she actually hired me to be, we decided that my responsibilities in Compass what would be a chief operating officer. So we were close. But little things started to come out. I remember one of the first things that it seemed so small, but I have a hard time when

somebody deceives me. We went on this hike and we were talking about like guys and stuff. It was before crime-con. We took this picture together and she posted me and Sarah talking about a Lissa like we usually do something like that. And I remember texting her and I was like, hey, like I get that you have to do promo and I definitely encourage promo, but you know, that's not what happened when we hiked and it just feels kind of weird and I don't like things to, you know, I don't like to be dishonest with our audience, like, you know, with her audience, whatever I hate dishonesty that way yeah and she blamed it all on Brooke the intern who you know Brooke saw your video she's amazing yeah she's a journalist now and she blamed the

caption that post on on Brooke she has well Brooke wrote that and later on I would discuss it with Brooke and she showed me the screenshot where Octavia told her to say exactly that. And I was just like, okay, that's weird. And, you know, throughout the friendship, there were other things too. I remember we went to an opening for her boyfriend at the time was an artist. And he had like a big show opening. I don't know what you call it. I'm not a fancy art person, but she invited me and we went, you know,

we were friends, we were best friends. And it was at the same time where she was featured in a local magazine. And we were actually approached by these assistants for the mayor of the time. I think it was the mayor of the governor. And we were talking about the Alyssa. And they were like, yeah, he's super interested

in Alyssa's case. He wants to help. And in the middle of that conversation, Atavia says, well, you know, I don't want to name her boyfriend at the time, but he's getting really upset that the attention is being taken away from him. And he actually, like, you should probably leave. And so I was like, Oh, okay. Like, you know, and I was like trying to get their contact information to like follow up later. And then I left.

It was small stuff like that that later on became big, you know, a big catalyst was also crime conned. Unfortunately, we went to crime con together. And before we went, I said, you know, because I just signed on to be like chief operating officer or whatever at that point. And I was like, you know, I'm here to advocate for a list. I'm not here working for the show. I've been planning for this for months, blah, blah, blah. Long story short, it was like the stupidest thing she was not invited to a party that I was invited to. And by the end of the event, I went to her and was like, I can tell that you're upset. Like, let's talk about it. I was up in her hotel

room, you know, and she was upset, even that me not wanting to stay in the hotel room with her, even though I explained to say, I don't, I'm going to be probably very overwhelmed from crime pond. I want my own room in a different hotel. I don't want to be surrounded by this. Totally. And she was pissed by that. Really? Yeah. Like she, she never understood the sensitivity of it in my opinion, because she could never understand where I was coming from. So she was pissed that I wasn't saying on property. She was pissed that I wasn't there soon enough. She was pissed that I wasn't, you know, that she wasn't invited to this party that I did try to get her invited to. I showed her the text and said, look, I asked if you could come. Like, I'm sorry, it's only like 10 people.

It's an Airbnb. It's small, whatever. And I went up to her room and I was like, are you upset? And she was like, yeah, you know, it's a trigger for me because I was bullied in school for being so thin and beautiful, which whatever. I'm not here to talk about people's triggers, but she tried to like later use that against me as if she didn't say it. And after CrimeCon, you know, I connected with Brooke, who was very concerned because Atavia had told her that she didn't want Brooke advocating

for my father's arrest. So Brooke really had this like crisis, you know, she was there from you, she was there to fight for Alyssa. And she's like, I don't know what to do. And I was like, well, you know, you do what you need to do. And she was like, you know, but there's more. She's been lying to you. The entire time at CrimeCon, she was with this other person who worked for a podcast. And they were talking badly about you the entire time.

And it made me extremely uncomfortable. And so I was like, what's going on? You know what I mean? And so I go to Autavia and I'm like, listen, like, do you want Brooke to advocate or not? Like, what are you talking about? And so I go to Autavia and I'm like, listen, like, do you want Brooke to advocate or not? Like, what are you talking about? And for the first time ever, she was like, well, I have to like draw this line in the sand. I'm a journalist. I can't publicly say I want your father arrested, which is news to me. Like, I even have a text

from her saying, you should consider me a friend and advocate and private and just a journalist to the public. And I'm like, I don't operate that way. You know what I mean? Like, it's either we're honest with each other, we aren't. Like, there's not these secret parts or whatever. And if she had established that line up front that she didn't want to advocate, I would have never worked with her and she knew that. So really, it just started coming out that she wasn't treating Brooke well. I was told that Brooke would be paid for her work as an intern and Brooke never was. And I was upset by that. I was see, oh, oh, at this time, I was like, that's not a good look. I'm not running around with unpaid interns or whatever. And she

didn't treat Brooke very well at the event, which is Brooke's story to tell. It's just a terrible, terrible experience. And near the end, she was saying one thing and doing another. For example, we had another event, the True Prime podcast festival, where we were supposed to both present about ethics and true prime. And I was trying to pretend like everything was cool. Like, I went up on stage, like poured her water, we hugged. I was like, nobody needs to know, right? I was like, the podcast is fine. Whatever, let people listen to the podcast. I was never trying to like, take away from that. But she like, slided me on stage. It was really weird. I forget exactly what the question was, but it was like something about getting effective interviews. And she said something to the effect of like,

well, when you're so close to the case, you just can't get an effective interview. And I entered like, I'm very honest about how I feel with people, right? I interjected right on stage and said, I actually disagree. You know what I mean? I think I got a great interview from my dad. What was really upsetting is after I got back from the event, I saw an interview she did with the, I believe it was the Chicago Tribune and she said that she was trying to spark a prosecution of my father. And so I went to her and I was like, which is it, man? You know what I mean? Are you trying to advocate? Because that's what you're telling the media and you're telling me that you can't advocate. What is it? And we went back and forth and you know in the end she was like, you're right blah blah blah like that is what I said.

I can see how that's confusing and so many times I try to say, thank you so much for everything you did. I think it's best if we don't work together and she would say, you know, well, I understand that probably wasn't a great idea to work together, but hopefully we can still be friends and I was like, I don't trust you. Like, you know what I mean? I was like, thank you so much. I don't think that's a good idea. I just kind of want to go our separate ways. And in my opinion through those text messages, I think she was getting scared that me and Brooke were finally talking to each other about her. Because I, I tried to maintain professional. Yeah. I try to be professional with Brooke. I'm not going to sit there and like talk smack about her employer or whatever. Right. Right. Right. But when we started comparing Novo to we realized that she was being deceptive to both of us. And I think she knew that.

And she even said something like, I knew the second broke gotten involved to be bad. Trying to lose with girls or whatever, always bad. And I just, again, was like, thank you so much. I think we should go our own ways. And she kept pushing and kept pushing and kept pushing. And I finally was like, I think you're predatory. I, you know what I mean? Like, I don't trust you anymore.

You're predatory journalists. You used me, you hurt me. And it all came out. And I kind of came to an end at a certain point. And then eventually, after maybe a week or two, I reached out because I had gotten this threatening DM from my uncle that said something to the effect of like, if you're hanging out with Autavia, you should be careful

or something. And so I literally wrote like, hey, Arshad aside, you should know about this. Like, as in no world, I want her to get hurt. I just wanted to like, I just wanted it to be done. It was so painful, you know, ending the friendship. And because I really thought that she cared about Lissa, but I was like, hey, like you have a child, like, you know, this is important, like Arshad decided, please be careful. And she would interuse that against me. And it was a weird few weeks of us going back and forth and not really saying very kind things to each other. And the way that our communication ended was,

I was trying to get Lissa's records and throughout our entire friendship, she told me, you can have a list of records when I'm done. They were incredibly expensive. You can have them when I'm done. So I reached out and said, hey, I'm trying to get a list of records, I don't think they're gonna give them to me. You always said you would give them to me, will you?

And she's like, they're in a storage unit. And I was like, okay, can you get them? And she was like, you know, I forget exactly what she said, but I was basically like, no, when I was like, I'll pay you for the records, I'll give you credit, like, can you get them? And she was like, you know, I forget exactly what she said, but it was basically like, no, when I was like, I'll pay you for the records, I'll give you credit. Like, what do you want? And she was basically like, why would I help you? And then, and then said, you shouldn't have burned

those bridges with police. I warned you against that. And of course, I'm like, no, you were behind me the entire time because she was. When people were flooding the Phoenix PD Instagram page with Justice for Alyssa, she was all for it. I have the text messages, you know what I mean? I had to go back and look because I was so gaslit

that I was like, am I remembering it wrong? And I went back and she supported me the entire time. And then I finally got the records and I said, looks like I'm not crazy after all, or whenever I got these records and they weren't as expensive as you said by the way. And then she was like, you're crazy. Leave me alone. Never talk to me.

If I catch you slandering me online, I will like take legal action or something. And I think my last text to her was, my that sounds like a threat to me, you know, because you kept, you know, the legal action. And at this point, I had no money. And so the power balance was so out of whack there. But yeah, so that's kind of how it ended. And then a few months after we stopped talking, I get this last text from her that says she has information

about my mom's death, that my dad says that my mom overdosed on opiates, which is for people who may not know, is one of the theories in Alyssa's case too, is that my mom died shortly before her life insurance policy was up, and her sister was concerned about a morphine overdose, blah, blah, blah. So it was very relevant. And I wanted to know that information, but I knew that it was so toxic that I had to walk away, and I did nothing. I said nothing. And then maybe close to a year later, maybe like six, nine months, I don't know.

I get a knock at my door from the Phoenix Police Department and I'm being served with an injunction against harassment from Autavia Sepala because of a tweet I made. And then she alleged that I was like every bad review on her podcast, that everything I was saying was about her. And I went to a lawyer because I was like listen I have the right to free speech like she can't intimidate me like this and quickly the lawyer was like well you realize that the

way that she words this she says that you cannot talk something like you can't talk about the content of her podcast and that's your sister so legally she could limit you from talking about your sister and I was like oh we're going we're going all the way. We're fighting this. Like I'm not doing this. And this amazing lawyer in like I swear, like 48 hours or something, got all the text messages, went through them, and it was like, yeah, we're fighting this all the way. This is absolutely insane. And we went to court over it. And in the end, I won. The judge was like, this is the most high school thing I've ever seen. This is obviously a falling out between friends. And I agree.

It was 100% a falling out between friends. And I learned, and I've never really talked about this before, but I learned in that court that it was actually one of Alyssa's detectives that text Ottavia and said, hey, have you seen this tweet? It looks like she's going to go after you or something. You should file an injunction against harassment. And let's explain that tweet, it looks like she's going to go after you or something, you should file an injunction against harassment. And let's explain that tweet, too, because that's what she was most angry about.

It seemed from her episode on that podcast we mentioned where she really comes out and slenders you. Yeah. I mean, straight slander, straight lies. That tweet was basically like, I'm going to tell the real reason why I started my podcast, which is a large variety of reasons. And she argued that it was all about her. And the thing is, when you go back through our text messages, I told her I was going

to make content. In fact, she wanted to put my entire justice for a list of blogs. They got great traffic behind a Patreon paywall. She wanted that interview with my dad where he said the deathbed confession thing behind her Patreon paywall. And I said, hey, I signed up to do everything for your show except for content, contents on you. And she was pissed.

By the time we settled in court or whatever, it was just awful. I mean, I don't even know how to describe it other than just complete shock and horror. And I didn't talk about it for a long time. I alluded to it a little bit, but she thought this, apparently this whole tweet was about her and the same way she thought every bad review was about, you know,

it was me secretly saying it. She actually thought you were making other accounts and writing bad reviews. And for the record, is that true? No, it's not true. You know, and it wasn't surprised to me that she wanted me to not move forward and talk about Alyssa.

She was extremely possessive the entire time. And I think I can only see that looking back. Like, you know, when I did your show back in 2018, you know, I was like, oh my gosh, can you believe it? Like, look at all this traffic we're getting. It's going to be so good for Alyssa. And like one of her first things was like, yeah, but why didn't Kendall mention me?

Can you go back and ask her? And at that time, like, I wasn't asking people to like correct any. Like if they got Alyssa's name wrong, I was like, whatever, you know, just thank you so much for featuring her like grateful grateful grateful. Can you for the record clear up? Well, her biggest accusation against you is that you lied under oath and I know you mentioned this, but can you explain that more? Yeah, so when we met a court and they asked me was the tweet about her whatever and I said no, that was her argument that I lied under oath because it really was about her because her mind and her mind, because I later made

a tweet about where I was like, no, it wasn't Autavia that did this. I had to like start a brand new podcast. And that isn't to say that that's the reason I started it. Basically, what I was saying is that if Autavia did what she promised she would do, there would, you know, what I mean, like it would have been a totally different path for me. I would have never needed to like be in the spotlight the way I would have. And again, I argue, I told her I was going to make content about Alyssa way before this ever even came up, so she knows I didn't start that podcast because of her. She knows that. That was the thing. She went and said, you know, Sarah lied under oath and I have the proof here and it's such a huge accusation to make against someone. And if she would have done that after trial, whatever, literally, she has a right to say whatever she wants, right?

But doing it right before trial, trying to discredit my testimony for Alyssa, I was so distraught over that. Like that is a different type of blow. It's very serious. Hate me all you want, but to jeopardize a list as justice right before the trial, and then go on 2020 and act like the hero and say the things that she did. It's my understanding that she says, like, I thought my dad was innocent until I got one podcast.

I wanted to bring, I'm not, I believe it was 2020, that said that. Yes, that you, yeah, it was because of the missing Alyssa podcast that you changed your mind on your dad. Can you set the record shirt on that? Yeah, no, that's obviously not the case. I changed my mind on my dad way before that many years before.

And again, I'd done so many other features. I was, you know, I was interviewed for the local news, talking about it. I reached back out to 2020 and said I didn't think he was innocent. I did the series with John Morton. Yeah. Yeah. Another family member was interviewed and she came to me and said that interview was so traumatic. I will never do another interview again. And they reached out to these family members, not me, and tried to have the interview pulled and she never responded back. And what's so interesting to me is she has no

problem going out there and reading all of your text messages. I mean, on this podcast, she did, it was done in a way that it was just like layering them on. I mean, they literally morph the ends of the sentences together. So just sounded like this run on like you're just this bully who was coming at her, coming at her, coming at her. But they never read any of her text messages. There was no context. There's no backstory about anything that she did. So it's just trying to make her look really professional and that there wasn't nothing that she did wrong. You just went crazy. Exactly. You mean for no reason bullied her. Yeah, that's the narrative, right? Crazy family member. Crazy family member. That's where you always hear. And I will say,

you know what I mean? Did I say those things to her? Absolutely. But in context, in private to her, did I call her predatory journalist? Absolutely to her, I mean, to her face over text, right? So I said, I did say those things to her, you know what I mean? But not like that and not in that context and not like in one day or one hour.

Yeah. And that's how they try to make it seem. Like it's just this berating. I can show the walls of text from her, but you know what, the judge told us not to. The judge was like, I don't wanna see these text messages online or something, so I'm not gonna do that. And she did anyway. I think another thing that was so confusing

about her statements that she made was, she acted like she was completely unaware of, you know, these court documents I was talking about about going to court to fight for my right to talk about Alyssa back. You know, yes, yes. She, it seems like she was pretending to be like really confused and maybe she just forgot, right?

But there's a court document from my lawyer where we fight for illegal fees back where it says in black and white language, this prohibited Sarah from potentially talking about her sister, you know, something better legal language than I'm saying right now. But it was there. I was filed with her lawyer.

I have to presume that she read it, but it was all there in black and white. Like, you know, she's like, I can't, I don't know what she might be talking about or thinking of. She knew it was right there in the language, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So it's just so not necessary. And I get that nobody likes for bad behavior to be exposed like that. And to be honest,

I'm not sure I would have ever gone into it as in depth as I am now unless, you know, if she didn't make those statements, but like I told her over text message, if she's going to lie about me, I'm going to defend myself. It's just, it's not fair to make me out to be this monster and to be crazy and to pretend that we had this super professional, you know, journalist family member relationship where I was crossing the line when the line was never there at all. I'd like to know more about where you think the future lies for Alissa's case and any future goals that you have that you feel comfortable sharing. Yeah, of course, you know, there are avenues I'm trying to explore in terms of getting more justice for Alyssa.

But outside of that, it's about having her legacy live on. You know, one of the biggest motivators for me to keep going to, like, at my lowest moments where I'm like, I just don't want to do this. And it just hurts so much. Is getting messages from people who say Alyssa's story helped them. And it makes me so emotional. Because that's all she would have ever wanted. I've got messages from sister saying, I got my sister out of abuse because I heard your story and we didn't realize what was going on. I had somebody that their parents worked for some type like residential school for kids. And she was like, I'm gonna confront my dad

and get out of here and it's those. So I hope the future for Alyssa is changing to crime. And it's got, it's taking me so long to get to this point to finally admit it, but I do think that she has. I think it's been screamed at me enough that Alyssa has changed true crime. So yeah, do you feel that there's a chance that her body will be recovered one day?

I hope so. The thing is getting her remains back never meant much to me. I'm not that person, right? Like, I don't need her remains to feel close to her or to put her at rest if you will for me. But now that my father's been acquitted, that's something that I think about all the time and it's something that I really really want. And I will say that there's never been a single search for her. So that's something I am working on behind the scenes is to get that done. Because it's just one piece of this puzzle that has never been done. So I hope so. I want that to

happen and I'm trying to take steps to make that happen. And I heard you talk on a TikTok live at some point about kind of what theories you have as far as where her remains are. Do you feel comfortable sharing kind of your theories on that? Yeah, and I've touched on them before obviously in my TikTok live, which is where her remains are. Do you feel comfortable sharing kind of your theories on that? Yeah, and I have touched on them before, obviously, in my TikTok lives, which is where I'm super candid. Yeah, it's great. You got to follow her and take a talk and catch some of those.

Those are my people. You know, I mean, everyone's my people. I would thank you to everyone. I'm not trying to isolate any audience, but I just see a unique thing on TikTok. It is. It is. But yeah, I think one is Desert Center, California, right?

That's the place that all these journalists have gone out to, to, you know, show a picture of the desert and nobody has ever looked. And I say that because my father named it in his manifesto. Yes, he did. He said that two men killed Alissa and he killed those two men and they said that she was buried in Desert Center, California. And these were people, according to him, from the union. Yes, long story short, the people were real people that died of like other causes. The police did look into it. Those, they were real people that he knew apparently or at least looked up their name. Yeah, these union people and then he like Bruce Willis-style killed them.

You know, but the point is, the detectives always told me that they're always finding these like kernels of truth and what my dad says. So even in the first 2020 episode they say that they want to search desert center California, but it's never happened. It's you know admittedly a very large area. It's dangerous to search in the desert. Sure. But I've had offers that the police have refused. So I would like to figure out if there's a way that we can work together in the future to get that done and desert center at least small patches perhaps at a time,

something. And then, you know, another area that has always been on my mind is this small buyer house. So we used to drive like our go carts up there. It's like just kind of like maybe a mile from where we used to live. And the thing is at the time they were building a shopping center. And my father was an electrician for a very long time, which means he understands how building schedules work, right? Construction is a very unique field, and I did some research into it, and there were open holes at the time that Alissa went missing. And from my understanding, from my research, I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that

once they dig these holes, they'll do, so they'll do like ground penetrating radar to make sure they're not going to hit like pipes or electricity or whatever. Yes. And then they dig the hole. And after that, they never really check it again. So there's an opportunity to, you know, put something like a body in there, cover it with some dirt and nobody will ever look at it again. And it gets filled with cement and that's the end. So that's a harder battle. I've actually tried to ask them all before and they've never responded to me. You know, I understand that it's a big undertaking, but what I was asking for is ground penetrating radar, they can go beneath that concrete. So I would love for that to happen. I think it's more of a reach than trying to look in Desert Center,

California. And the third option is my uncle's property. It was this family property that was owned up north. And I had some private conversations with my uncle that I've never aired at his request. But he did say that he thought Alyssa might have been put into this, basically this hole in the ground, that filtered into like a river or something. And he said they would put

things in there and they would never see them again. So I would love to search up there. The police actually did go up there. Basically just like, and this is how I found out actually, they talked to the owners of the house, the owners told their daughter and their daughter message to me and was like, oh my gosh did you know the police were just at my parents' property? It's your old, you know, family property, whatever. But they never searched. They just went up there like asked them questions and they were like, okay, bye. So those are my three top contenders. So in your dad's newly found freedom, he has decided to start a YouTube channel. What do you think about that? Yeah, I hate it. I mean, of course, I hate it, right?

I hate it. I mean, of course, I hate it, right? But yeah, he's making posts about how he wants to kind of take the torch now. He says nobody's looking for a list of, so now it's on him. He has to do it. He wants to start a podcast. He began posting some shorter videos on YouTube. It's not really just the same nonsense. It's nothing I haven't heard before. Outside of kind of this new storyline of him thinking Elisabeth's traffic and how he wants to, it's very sound of freedom. He wants to go to South America and recover American women and he's talking about how he's going to need funds

to do that and you know he's thinking about raising money. And that's what scares me. So that's why I hate it. Like tell your side of the story all you want. But to, again, Bruce Willis in his own mind or whatever, right, he wants to get a team together, he wants to get healthy, go down there himself and go rescue these women or whatever. And it's just, it's so ridiculous.

And I am so scared that people are going to give him money. You know, I've already seen comments that are like, I saw the 2020, I believe you. And that's the danger. And giving him airtime that is edited. You know what I mean? Let him talk unfiltered, right? And I think that says everything. Do you think you will ever have that conversation with your father on his deathbed? No, I think one, my brother who was close to him would never tell me if he really was on a deathbed, to he's going to live forever. Unfortunately, he's like so healthy in its ridiculous. I know that he tries to say that he isn't. He came in in the wheelchair, but he was walking fine

without it. He was hiking, you know, every week or whatever before he got arrested. And the biggest point is I don't think he's kind enough to give me that closure. I think if I somehow made it to his deathbed or whatever when he was dying, he would be like, no, you destroyed this family and I didn't do it. You know what I mean? I don't think you'd ever give me or any of my siblings that satisfaction.

Probably not. Well, he doesn't love us. He doesn't have the empathy or capacity for that. What message you have for other families who aren't going through something similar? Don't know where to start or maybe in the process and need inspiration to keep going? Yeah, don't give up. It's going to be really, really hard.

It's not a fun or easy journey and take it at your own pace. You know what I mean? I think the way that I fought for Alyssa looking back was unhealthy. I know it was unhealthy. I ate, breathed and slept for Alyssa. You know, it was every part of my life. And I honestly don't recommend that. But I get asked this question all the time by families, where do I start? And it's a great question. And I always say, with the police, get those documents. Getting Alyssa's case file that was 3,000 plus pages or whatever changed everything.

Because you're told one thing by police, you see one thing on the media, but when you read those case files, like it changes everything. So start with the files, work with the police, try to see what you can do there, try to have a good relationship with them, but keep it business and don't be afraid to hold them accountable in a professional way and go from there. Every case is different, right? And maybe, you know, there are some cases that don't need media attention. They need something else. But I do believe that especially the majority

of cold cases, usually the detectives will say, media will help. So take it at your own pace, you know, judge your case individually and try to work with police. And obviously there are cases where they will not give you the case file, but you might as well try. Yeah, try try every effort you can start talking to people and just protect your heart. Be careful who you work with. That's good advice. What would you like people who leave this episode to know, to remember about your experience about

Alissa, to keep in mind for the future? Yeah, I mean, I always say it, and it may sound cheesy at this point, but like there's always hope, right? There's always hope. And I think we're seeing that more now and now with all these cold cases, getting these huge breakthroughs. And you know, in terms of remembering Alissa is, please don't, you know, and I don't think anybody really does, but like when you read a headline about rebellious teenager running away, think twice, think twice about it.

And I just hope that people realize that Melissa was amazing and, you know, I was a thousand times worse than she was as a teenager. And bottom line, she had so much pressure on her, you know what I mean? She really was acting as my mom. And I said this in court, the jury asked, why do you say that Alyssa was so brave? And I said because she was brave enough to stay.

And that's something I learned throughout my journey is that she did stay for me. She wanted to leave. She talked about the abuse all the time to her friends and she said, I can't leave Sarah there. So just remember that she was a child and a wonderful person and overall, there really is always hope. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be here and opening up to me.

I appreciate it so much. I know my audience will really appreciate it as well. And I know it can be easy for you to continually talk about this. You've done so many episodes and so many different shows and obviously going through court and everything. So I just, I really appreciate your time here and trusting me to, you know, use my platform

to help tell your story. And I don't take that lightly. I really, really appreciate it. And Alyssa is just so lucky to have you as her sister, everything that you've done for her. I mean, you know I have a sister too and it just breaks my heart thinking about that bond. But you're just such a strong person.

I don't even know how to put it in words. I look up to you so much. I'm so inspired by you and I know countless other people feel the same way. Thank you. Moving forward, though, how can my audience now help in the fight for Justice for Alyssa? Just continue to support me.

That would be fantastic. Follow me on social media. You know what I mean? It's the larger voice I have, the better it is and the more people pay attention. And I wish it wasn't that way, right? I wish the world was just like this is black and white. This is right or wrong.

But the attention does help. So supporting me is awesome. I appreciate it. It makes me feel better. And it does help further the entire mission. And again, please check out voices for justice. The work that Sarah does, she works, you know, not only on a sister's case, but works with so many different families. That's amazing coverage of their cases. And what is next for you?

What's next for Sarah Turnie? So many things. I mean, of course, everything is rooted in Alissa, right? Like her legacy will forever live on. And there will be projects about her. Once the arrest happened, I got so many offers for so many things and I couldn't do any of it, right? Which is fine. Yeah, it is what it is. I wouldn't change it. I would never do anything to jeopardize Alyssa, but now I can. So, you know, there's going to be a lot of projects coming out. I am doing a book, perhaps two books. You know, I'm revisiting Alyssa's case on my podcast, retelling it in my own words, because the first season of Alyssa's podcast is really a retelling of the case file, and

it's very in-depth, probably more in-depth than it needs to be these days. So I want to come back and kind of, like, how Taylor Swift has Taylor's version or whatever. I want to do Sarah's version, now that I can say what I want, really, without any consequence to Alyssa, I have a lot more freedom to talk about certain things. So I'm redoing Alyssa's case, and I'm actually involved in a few projects with other families. I've been invited to work behind the scenes with families telling their own stories

and their own words kind of inspired by my podcast. So I'm super excited to do that. I'm working with a few different families to do that. Voices for Justice is becoming a network. And I'm inviting with a few different families to do that. Voices for justice is becoming a network. And I'm inviting other families to come tell their story and do it in their own words. You know, and the entire approach is, you know,

how I kind of phrased it is, you know, we know that we're a family, and we're not saying that we're completely unbiased. It's just if you want to hear it from us, come hear it from us. We want to tell the stories in our own words, and I'm really empowering families to do that. So I'm working on a few seasons of that coming up which I'm really excited about.

I'm working on some unidentified stuff. You know, I actually really want to. There's this Jane Doe that always gets compared to Alyssa and you know, it's been said that it's not a list of the police say it's not her. I want to find out who she is. I want to find out who her family is. So I'm doing that. I'm doing like so many things, probably too many things. But no, it's great. I'm doing all the things. So I'm really excited working with other families, continuing Melissa's story and just continuing her legacy. Well, I can't wait to see all of that unfold and it's great to know that we're going to get so much more from Sarah Turnie because you're truly a talent. You truly care about people, and again, you've

just inspired me so much. So thank you for being here today. And I of course will link everything below of where you can follow Sarah, all her social media, her podcast, and keep up with what she's doing because your story is just beginning. Thank you. You're gonna make it cry. And you've been so inspiring to me. I could gush about you all day, we've been talking, we've done our to get to, but thank you. I could gush about you all day. We've been talking. We have dinner to get to, but you know. I love you. Love you. I love you.

That is going to be it for me today, guys. Thank you for joining me for another episode. And make sure you follow the show on Spotify and Apple Podcast. It really does help me out. If you want to watch the video version of this show, you can find it on my YouTube channel, which will be linked, or you can just search Kendall Ray. I will be back with another episode soon, but until then, stay safe out there.