Trump's Trials - Fake electors return for 2024 election

Episode Date: September 12, 2024

For this episode of Trump's Trials, NPR voting rights correspondent Hansi Lo Wang takes a look at fake electors returning for the 2024 election.Four years ago, what have been known as "fake electors" gathered in seven mainly swing states where Trump lost the popular vote to sign certificates that became part of a scheme by the former president and his allies to try to overturn the election results. This year's return of some of these Republicans as potential electors — confirmed in recent weeks through party filings to state election officials — raises questions about what they will do if Trump loses in their states again. Follow the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify for new episodes each Saturday.Sign up for sponsor-free episodes and support NPR's political journalism at plus.npr.org/trumpstrials.Email the show at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

From NPR, it's Trump's Trials, I'm Scott Daxman. Supreme Court justices have issued a major ruling and an election case. The Justice Department will be relentless in defending the right to vote. Will you accept the results of the election? If it's a fair and legal election, absolutely. As a reminder, we are still following former President Donald Trump's legal issues, but we are also following potential legal challenges to this upcoming election. States are getting ready for this fall's election by lining up each party's electors for the

electoral college. This is the process that determines who will be the next president. And this year's potential electors include Republicans linked to efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. When we come back, NPR's voting rights correspondent, Hansi Lo Wong, has more. I'm Elena Moore. I cover new voters for NPR. That means people who've never voted before, especially young people.

Their numbers and power are growing. What issues do they care about? How do they feel? What they say can tell us where this election is headed. My job is to bring their voices to you. To help support our work, sign up for NPR+. Just go to plus dot NPR dot org. What does the future of food look like as the climate continues to change. We'll bring you innovations and answers during NPR's Climate Solutions Week. Explore with us at npr.org slash climateweek. You're listening to Trump's Trials. I'm Scott Detro and now here's one of Summers. They've been called fake electors. In 2020 they got together in

seven states where former President Donald Trump lost the popular vote. They signed certificates that became part of a scheme to reverse Trump's defeat. Now, 14 of those pro-Trump electors are back. NPR's voting rights correspondent Hansi Le Wong reports on how that's raising concerns for this year's election. Those 14 returning pro-Trump electors are mainly current or former Republican leaders in swing states. I'm not surprised.

Rebecca Green is an associate professor at William & Mary Law School. The decision over who the electors are is a decision made by the political parties. And the GOP of Michigan and Nevada have chosen Republicans who have been criminally charged with felony counts related to sending false certificates to Congress that claimed Trump won their

state's electoral votes in 2020. In Michigan, those Republicans have pleaded not guilty and the charges in Nevada have been thrown out by a judge who says the prosecutors picked the wrong venue for the case. Still, Green says these charges sent a strong signal to this year's electors. Given that there have been prosecutions of electors for forgery and conspiracy, I would think that people in that position would think twice. David Coleman is an attorney for one

of the indicted Republicans in Michigan. Hank Chote, who in 2020, Coleman says was relying on legal advice from GOP attorneys when he signed the second page of a certificate without reading the first. Should these electors have read the documents

and all of that, I'm not gonna disagree with that. But the reality, that's not what they're charged with. They're charged with a crime for having intent knowingly to defraud. This year, Coleman says, if Vice President Harris is certified as the winner of Michigan's popular vote over Trump. And there's another attempt to try to get the electors

to sign something. You can bet I will be involved in that and will be giving appropriate advice and counsel to my client. I'll just leave it at that. In Pennsylvania and New Mexico, pro-Trump electors in 2020 signed certificates with caveats that said those documents would only be used if a court overturned their state's election results. Several of those Republicans are back this year. And so far, none of them, including Ashkare in Pennsylvania, have been charged. When you heard about those charges in Michigan and Nevada, did anything cross your mind?

Well, what crossed our mind is that we were smart. They screwed up. They should have put the same caviar in like we did. Andy Riley says they signed the certificate because of a legal fight over Pennsylvania's ballots, They screwed up. They should have put the same caviar in like we did. Andy Riley says they signed the certificate because of a legal fight over Pennsylvania's ballots, which at the time many legal experts saw to be going nowhere. Riley, who's an attorney, says he wanted to be a potential elector again this year because... I know sometimes in the heat of a campaign, people can get fervent and they can, you know, cross the line. And I'm going to make

sure that we do everything to preserve, if it's legal, the rights of the candidate, but without doing anything that I think would violate the law or the constitution like I did the last time. There's a big difference between did you violate a criminal law and did you do the right thing. Mary McCord is a former Justice Department official who now teaches at Georgetown University Law Center. She'll bring a civil lawsuit in Wisconsin that led to a settlement agreement that bans unauthorized pro-Trump electors from backing Trump again. At the federal level, McCord points to changes to the law about the counting of electoral votes in Congress. She says they've made it harder for Trump's allies to try to overturn the election results again if he loses. For example, the law now requires one-fifth of both the U.S. House and Senate to object

to a state's electoral votes, instead of just one representative and one senator. It certainly raises the bar, but, you know, it's not an impossible threshold to meet. Especially, McCord warns, if in this age of disinformation there's a false narrative about election fraud. Thanks for listening to Trump's Trials from NPR. Keep an eye out for more episodes like this whenever big news happens. I'm Scott Detra. Need a binge listen? Check out the latest series from NPR's Embedded podcast. It's called Tested. Since long before the Paris Olympics, women in sports have been asked to prove their gender.

There was chit chat about, is that really a woman? Listen to Tested, a new series from Embedded and CBC about the history and future of sex testing in sports. All episodes are out now. Okay, so tell me if this sounds like you. You love NPR's podcasts, you wish they weren't interrupted by sponsor breaks like this one, and you want to support NPR's mission of creating a more informed public. If this does sound like you, then it's time to sign up for perks across more than 20 podcasts with the NPR Plus bundle. Learn more at plus.npr.org.