Trump's Trials - How President Trump is testing executive power

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

The Trump administration flew planes with Venezuelan detainees to a prison in El Salvador, despite a court order blocking the flights. A judge is demanding the DOJ explain why it ignored the ruling. Support NPR and hear every episode sponsor-free with NPR+. Sign up at plus.npr.org.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

I'm Scott Detro and you're listening to Trump's terms from NPR. We're going to be doing all sorts of things nobody ever thought was even possible. It's going to be a very aggressive first hundred days of the new Congress. Unpredictable, transformative next four years. The United States is going to take off like a rocket ship. Each episode we bring you the latest news about the 47th president and the policy changes he is pursuing on his own terms. We know from experience that means challenging precedent, busting norms, and pushing against

set ideas about what the federal government can and can't do. It all raises questions about how much Washington and the country will change over the course of this term. NPR is covering it all in stories like the one you are about to hear, right after this. You're listening to Trump's terms from NPR is covering it all in stories like the one you are about to hear, right after this. You're listening to Trump's Terms from NPR. This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. You'll see your favorite actors, directors, and comedians on late night TV shows or YouTube. But what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive.

Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert, and so many more. We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else. Listen to the Fresh Share podcast from NPR and WHYY. I'm Leila Faldon. A federal judge wants the Justice Department to explain its actions in deportations that took place over the weekend. A judge asked for a sworn declaration from the DOJ by noon today detailing how planes carrying alleged Venezuelan gang members were flown from the U.S. to El Salvador despite a judge's orders to turn the planes around.

A hearing yesterday saw a heated debate unfold about when exactly the orders were issued and whether they had to be in writing to restrain government action. The incident is bringing the administration closer to a constitutional face-off. NPR's Franco Ordonez is here with more about how President Trump is testing his executive powers.

Good morning, Franco. Good morning, Lila. So this story really blew up over the weekend. What's the controversy here? Well, I mean, the controversy is whether the US government defied a legal court order, which would be a potential breakdown between the executive branch and the judicial branch.

And many legal experts say this would create a major constitutional crisis. Now, the White House says they did not ignore the court and they're painting this as a counter-terrorism operation. They say most of the migrants on the plane were members of a Venezuelan gang known as Tren de Agua. Others were from the Salvadoran gang, MS-13. But really as you noted, part of this debate is over the timing of the order. The White House says the written order was issued after the flights had taken off but the earlier the judge did give a verbal order. Okay so before we talk about the legal issues

how does the White House view the politics of this issue? I mean politically they see this as a winning issue. I mean it's one Trump campaigned on and they're claiming this operation is him carrying out that promise. They feel that most Americans care more that violent gang members are being removed from the country. They even made light of the controversy yesterday and over the weekend, reposting a note by the Salvadoran president who wrote online, quote, oopsie, too late after the judge called back the plane.

They're also posting on social media, video of tattooed migrants with their hands chained boarding planes to different kinds of music. So making light of this really important question of whether or not the Trump administration defied the court order, what did the Trump administration say about that? Well, they say they did not. And I did speak with Justin Levitt, a law professor

at Loyola Marymount University, who served in the Biden White House. He said it's clear that Trump administration is attacking the judicial branch in alarming ways, but he said it was not clear whether the administration was actually violating those orders yet. So what I see them doing so far is playing footsie with the notion of defying a court order rather than actually defying a court order. They're getting cute. They're getting up to the line.

He adds that they talk tough on TV and press briefings. Vice President Vance has attacked judges saying they're not allowed to control executive branch. Just yesterday, the borders are. Tom Homan said on Fox he didn't care what judges think. But so far, Levitt says a Trump administration has complied with the orders, albeit reluctantly. And how does this test of Trump's power fit with other moves the administration's making? I mean, this is a case that should not be looked at in a vacuum.

The question at hand is not whether or not these people are dangerous and should be in the country, but the process of their removal. Is it legal? And specifically, did the administration knowingly ignore this order? This is just another example though of how the White House is working to stretch its powers.

And we have seen this with the legislative branch and we're now seeing it in the judicial branch. Thanks, Franco. Thank you. That's White House correspondent, Franco. Thank you. That's White House correspondent Franco Ordonez. And before we wrap up, a thank you to our NPR Plus supporters, who hear each show without sponsored messages and of course, who help protect independent journalism. If you are not a supporter yet, you can visit plus.npr.org to find out how you can get a ton of podcast perks across dozens of NPR shows, like bonus episodes, exclusive merchandise,

and more. Again, that's plus.npr.org. I'm Scott Detro. Thanks for listening to Trump's Terms from NPR.