Trump's Trials - How Trump can end the war in Ukraine, according to a former ambassador

Episode Date: January 3, 2025

NPR's Andrew Limbong speaks with Michael McFaul, former U.S. Ambassador to Russia, about his recent piece in Foreign Affairs, "How Trump Can End the War in Ukraine."Support NPR and hear every episode sponsor-free with NPR+. Sign up at plus.npr.org.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

I'm Scott Detro and you're listening to Trump's Terms from NPR. We will have really great strong people. Donald Trump is unstoppable. Make America healthy again. The future is going to be amazing. Each episode we bring you the latest news about the people who will advise and report to President Donald Trump in his second term. From cabinet secretaries to political advisors to top military leaders, NPR is following their path to power and exploring how their ideas could become reality.

You're about to hear a story about just that in a minute. I'm Andrew Limbaugh. One of the big questions facing the Trump administration in the new year will be what to do about the war in Ukraine. The president-elect has said he could end the war in one day, but that's unlikely. Russian President Vladimir Putin does not seem like he's willing to back down, and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky faces a tough choice. Continue fighting, possibly with less support from the West, or negotiate an end to a war that would likely hand over land to Russia. Michael McFaul has one possible solution.

He's a former ambassador to Russia and recently wrote the piece, How Trump Can End the War in Ukraine in Foreign Affairs Magazine. Welcome Ambassador. Thanks for having me. So your basic argument is this. President Trump could help negotiate a deal in which Russia maintains control of the areas it now currently occupies. And Ukraine in return gets NATO membership.

Walk us through how you landed on that. Well, first of all, I say this out of tragedy, not out of any enthusiasm, but it's just a realistic assessment of the situation on the battlefield. President Zelensky a few weeks ago hinted himself that he would be ready for negotiations along the lines that I implied, which is to say, then that was a first by the way, where he said, we are prepared to reunify our country

only through diplomatic means. And that means allowing that territory occupied by Russia to be occupied for a while. But in return, he has to get something back. This just can't be a capitulation. This just can't be give Putin everything he wants. And I think the way for permanent and enduring peace is once he does that,

the NATO alliance brings Ukraine into NATO. Tell me more about Ukraine's membership into NATO part of this this puzzle here. Why is that so important to this deal that you propose? NATO membership offers real security. The Soviet Union never attacked a NATO country. Russia has never attacked a NATO country. Russia has never attacked a NATO country. By the way, NATO has never attacked Russia or the Soviet Union, so that should be reassuring

to the Russians. And that's why I think NATO membership guarantees that there will be enduring peace and not just peace for a couple more years, followed by another invasion down the road by Russia. Would giving Vladimir Putin control over land that he seized set a bad precedent? What would stop him from invading yet another country to reach a similar deal to what you're proposing? I agree. I think it's a really bad precedent.

It's a very tragic one. And unlike, say, the division of West Germany and East Germany, I tragically predict that he will Russify those territories that he's occupying so that, you know, over time they will feel like they're part of Russia and not a separate country like East Germany was. So I think it's a really dangerous precedent. I just think my proposal is better than all the alternatives. What about President Zelensky? You write in your piece that a majority of the Ukrainians still believe the country can

win the war. Why should he support a plan that would give overland to Russia, especially if his people, the public, thinks that they can win? This would be the most difficult decision of his time as president. It will be unpopular. It'll be especially unpopular within the military ranks. People that are fighting not just for independence and not just for Ukraine,

but fighting to avenge their sisters and brothers that were killed by these Russians. And they won't like this deal. And that's why, you know, if you're serious about ending the war, and I'm gonna take him at his word that President-elect Trump is serious about the war, you have to give something to the Ukrainian people for the sacrifice that they will be enduring.

A deal has to be compromised on all sides. I actually was just reading the art of the deal earlier this morning by Mr. Trump, and he talks about that. It can't just be capitulation to Putin. We started this conversation with you saying you're proposing this deal in tragedy. I think those are your words or in sorrow. In sorrow. Yeah, I hate I hate I had a hard time publishing this piece because I don't I don't like it

When did reality sort of settle in for you? When did you think like, okay, you know You've been very public supporting Ukraine that you know this war. When did you realize it was time for a deal such as this? Well, I talked to Ukrainians every single day Well, I talk to Ukrainians every single day, those that travel to the battlefield, the front line, those that are fighting, senior government officials. And I think over the last several months, it's a reality inside Ukraine. It's not my reality that the costs of trying to go fight all the way to the 1991 borders is going to be heavy. And then number two, the event was the reelection of Donald Trump. And that in Kiev and in other parts of Ukraine,

a sense has been building that they're not going to be able to rely on the United States for years and years. That's Michael McFaul, former US ambassador to Russia and director of the Friedman Spogli Institute for International Studies at Stanford University. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Before we wrap up, a reminder, you can find more coverage of the incoming Trump administration on the NPR Politics Podcast, where you can hear NPR's political reporters break down

the day's biggest political news, with new episodes every weekday afternoon. And thanks, as always, to our NPR Plus supporters who hear every episode of the show without sponsor messages. You can learn more at plus.npr.org. I'm Scott Detro. Thanks for listening to Trump's Terms from NPR.