Trump's Trials - Trump guilty on all counts — first president convicted in a felony criminal trial

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

Never before has a former or sitting U.S. president been convicted of felony crimes. Until now.A jury of 12 New Yorkers found former President Donald Trump guilty of 34 counts of falsifying business records to cover up a hush money payment to adult film star Stormy Daniels ahead of the 2016 presidential election. Hosts Scott Detrow and Juana Summers are joined by an NPR roundtable — Justice Correspondent Carrie Johnson, Senior Editor and Correspondent Domenico Montanaro, White House Correspondent Franco Ordenez, Boston University professor Jed Shugerman, and from the courthouse, Andrea Bernstein. Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Former President Donald Trump has been found guilty on 34 counts. 34 felony counts. Donald Trump has been found guilty by a jury of 12 New Yorkers. We love Trump! This is a persecution. He actually just stormed out of the courtroom. We love him! Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

After roughly 10 hours of deliberation, a jury of 12 New Yorkers reached a verdict in the criminal hush money trial of former president Donald Trump, guilty on all 34 counts of felony falsification of business records. In this episode, we are going to dive into this historic verdict, what it means legally, what it means historically, and what it means politically in a presidential election. We'll give you our analysis as it unfolded in real time on NPR. This message comes from NPR sponsor Organic Valley, a co-op of small organic family farms. Farmer Tyler Webb shares why caring for his land has always been a priority.

I'd like to contribute to my community an array of ecosystem services beyond just milk. Building topsoil and holding onto water and supporting wildlife to build that resilience that will support generations to come. Discover Organic Valley Dairy at ov.coop slash ethically sourced. It's a high stakes election year, so it's not enough to just follow along. You need to understand what's happening so you are fully informed come November.

Every weekday on the NPR Politics Podcast, our political reporters break down important stories and backstories from the campaign trail so you understand why it matters to you. Listen to the NPR Politics Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. It's Trump's Trials from NPR. I'm Scott Detro. And in the moment, we learned about that guilty verdict. I was joined on All Things Considered by my co- co-host Juana Summers and we took it all in

with an NPR roundtable. Justice correspondent Kerry Johnson, senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro, White House correspondent Franco Ordonez, Boston University professor Jed Sugarman, and our reporter in the courthouse Andrea Bernstein. Former president Donald Trump has been found guilty on 34 felony counts, the charge falsifying business records in the first degree, this case centered around hush money payments that were paid to an adult film actress in the closing days of the 2016 presidential election. The crime here itself isn't necessarily the hush money payments, it's the fact that they

were falsified as business records paid back to Michael Cohen under the guise of retainers. Domenico Montanaro, we've been talking about this hypothetically for months and months now, more than a year since these charges were brought. Now we know that one of the candidates for president of the United States has been found guilty in a criminal court. Yeah, it's yet another stunning moment in the era of Trump. I mean, it's one of those things. I mean, to hear, you know, even you say that a former president now for the first time is convicted of a crime, it is quite remarkable, not only remarkable that that's happening, but that he's also running at the same time. And already his campaign, one of his people affiliated with his campaign tweeting out, so corrupt. And so you see where the spin is going to go with this immediately to try to be able

to get all of that base of support back together and keep it together, as many people, by the way, are going to be starting only now to really be tuning into this because people have actively been trying to tune out a lot of this kind of political information because they've been so sour on both candidates and they just feel like this is so much chaos. But a lot of people, this is going to be one of those things, a lot of people are going to want to at least find out what happened here exactly, what do we know, what does this mean? And of course, there's multiple other criminal trials that Donald Trump is facing.

There's a very good chance that none of them go to trial this year. There's a federal trial related to January 6 and Trump's attempts to overturn the election. There's a Florida federal trial regarding classified documents, how he allegedly kept them and would not return them to the federal government. Then there's a Georgia criminal case as well regarding the attempts to overturn the election. A lot of questions, how does Donald Trump and his campaign continue to attack and undermine this verdict? Domenico, also questions about what Joe Biden does here, especially given Biden's attempts to try and stay above this to try and make

it not look like he's politicizing this in any way. Yeah, what does Joe Biden do? Because, you know, we've been hearing that the Biden campaign starting to shift strategy, that the president is going to start to talk about this now after there's been a verdict. You know, the former president, Trump, has been unabashedly accusing the current president of targeting him politically with these cases, which there's no evidence. It's not only no evidence, it's completely baseless because first of all, this is a case that's brought by New York prosecutors that, of course, obviously a president doesn't even have any control over.

Even these federal cases, the White House has gone to pains to show its independence and not allowing the Justice Department to have independence and show it's not interfering whatsoever. But this is going to be a pivotal moment for a campaign that's been frustrated by the fact that Donald Trump continues to get wall to wall coverage and they've been wanting to angle themselves in there to get more of that attention. We've been talking about this in the context of the presidential election that's underway, but worth just taking another step back. There's been 46 US presidents.

One has been convicted in a criminal court, and that's Donald Trump. Domenico Montanaro, thank you very much. We'll talk again soon. You got it. Judd Sugarman, he is a Boston University law professor. And Judd, I just want to start by asking you for your initial reaction upon hearing that former President Trump has been convicted on all 34 counts of falsifying business record by a jury of 12 New Yorkers.

My initial reaction is mixed in that I was a critic of the prosecution making some of these decisions. On the other hand, I am also pretty astonished about how Trump has been able to avoid legal accountability for so many other crimes, and those prosecutions were stronger. So there's something of legal karma here. And I also want to say, you got to give the prosecution credit

because they got the guilty verdict. They somewhere between jury selection and the strategy with this case. They got their prosecution. I will note that legally I think the prosecution and the judge made some choices that made a jury verdict for guilt more likely at the trade-off of making the likelihood that it gets overturned on appeal also more likely. That's the trade-off that I think was a strategic decision. We haven't heard yet from former President Trump. This is

still a developing story obviously, but we will assume that the former president will indeed appeal this decision. Tell us what happens then. Well this first there are two stages in New York State Court, and then there would be at some point down the road an appeal from the highest New York court to the Supreme Court. You can't go to federal court until that last stage. And the open question that I think is hard to answer is whether New York allows for such an expedited process that an appeal could be heard and decided before the election.

I think that's unlikely, but there is an expedited process in New York to get that intermediate stage. That's not the highest court, but it's at least an intermediate appellate court to hear these questions. That's Judge Sugarman, Austin University Law Professor.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Franco Ardoñez is covering the Trump campaign for us. And Franco, we've talked about how Trump has tried to undermine this. We were just hearing that Trump's sentencing will be July 11, which off the top of my head is shortly before the Republican National Convention makes him

the official Republican nominee for president. Franco Ordoñez, we talked about how Trump and his allies have been trying to undermine this process all along. We're hearing the first wave of response. What are we hearing? Yeah, I mean, we are starting to hear responses. I mean, from the senior advisor, Chris LaSavita, he tweeted out or posted on X that the fix was always in.

You're also hearing from House Speaker Mike Johnson, another ally calling it a shameful day in American history. These are the kind of things that Trump and his team have been kind of setting the stage for, as you said, undermining the campaign, painting the judge as bias, painting the jury as bias, arguing that of course it was going to be unfair to Biden because it's in Manhattan and New York, such a blue part of the country. This is, you have been hearing this over and over again.

When I talk to Trump World, they say they are already preparing to appeal this. So I anticipate that we you know, we still have a lot to go and I'll just add that June 11th is also not only close to the conventions, but July 11th, pardon me, it is right before the convention and immediately after the debate or soon after the first debate. So we'll be talking about this at the debate as well. Right. Some other response, Elise Stefanik, a key House Republican, somebody who is on the short list as far as we know for Trump's vice presidential pick. Today's verdict shows how corrupt and rigged the American justice system has become under Joe Biden. I fully

support President Trump appealing this decision. Franco, we're talking about all these different ways that Republicans have attacked this, but Trump has shared a lot of disinformation as well, including recently claiming that the FBI had orders to shoot him when they when they raided Mar-a-Lago last year as part of a separate case, which is of course not the case. Donald Trump was not on the property at all. That's correct. I mean, look, this is this has been an issue with Trump for a long time, the use of his bully pulpit to kind of spread information, to kind of confuse listeners, to confuse the American public, to kind of draw himself, to paint himself as we have heard before and reported many times as kind of a victim of a system that is biased against him, biased against Republicans.

We've heard over and over again, this is how he has stoked his base, stoked his supporters, arguing that he is not the one who they're going after. They're actually going after his supporters, they're going after Republicans, but he is standing in their way. If Donald Trump is walking to the point in the hallway where he can talk to reporters, we are going to listen to him. he has now been convicted of 34 criminal counts all 34 criminal counts at 5% or 6% in this district in this area this was a rigged disgraceful trial that the real verdict is going to be November 5th by

the people. And they know what happened here and everybody knows what happened here. We have a Sores-backed DA and the whole thing. We didn't do a thing wrong. I'm a very innocent man. And it's okay. I'm fighting for our country. I'm fighting for our Constitution. Our whole country is being rigged right now.

This was done by the Biden administration in order to wound or hurt an opponent, a political opponent. And I think it's just a disgrace. And we'll keep fighting. We'll fight till the end and we'll win because our country's gone to hell. We don't have the same country anymore. We have a divided mess. We're nation in decline, serious decline, millions and millions of people

pouring into our country right now. Trump campaigning here from the courtroom hallway, as he's been doing throughout this trial. He's now been found guilty on all 34 felony counts. We have a country that's in big trouble, but this was a rigged decision right from day one with a conflicted judge. We should have never been allowed to try this case, never. And we will fight for our Constitution. This is long from over. Thank you very much.

Questions from reporters. We're gonna hang here a minute to see if he responds. Let's go now to NPR senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro. Domenico, what stood out from you from hearing from the former president there? Well, I mean just clearly the irritation in his voice, very sort of ad-libbed statement there of some of his greatest hits. He's not happy about what has gone down. I think that he has the same concerns about how this is going to play with those general election voters.

Right now, they're scrambling a bit on the Trump side to try to say that this is rigged as Trump was saying and try to sort of throw in any direction possible away from himself, to sort of deflect away from himself and any accountability and say that he's going to continue fighting. Certainly plays into his victimhood strategy that he's been using since he sort of came onto the scene. But we're five months from the presidential election and he is right, there's going to be a verdict in November and his team has pushed very hard to get all of these trials pushed off beyond the election and this was the one that he just couldn't shake and it's none, Adam.

Trump now running for president again, being convicted in a criminal courtroom and we are hearing him attack the process, say it was rigged, attack Joe Biden, who we should just say again, had nothing to do with this case. This is a state level case brought by New York City's district attorney. And a verdict was reached by 12 New Yorkers who sat through this trial for more than six weeks, who by all accounts took it very seriously, took copious notes, focused in on the process, and deliberated for about 10 hours over the course of two days before reaching this historic verdict. Kerry Johnson, you have covered a lot of legal issues. What are you thinking about and asking about right now? This is a jury that did its work very thoroughly, but also very quickly. What I'm thinking about now is the idea that this

is a state crime, a series of state crimes, and that even if Donald Trump were to regain the White House, he could not pardon himself from this state crime. And so that means his fight now goes to the appeals courts, and he could take that fight out for months and months. We know now he's scheduled to be sentenced July 11th on these charges, but his attorney Todd Blanch has suggested they want to appeal and they're gonna leave no stone unturned. I guess we should be thinking about some grounds for an appeal. It was a little controversial that Judge Mershon and the district attorney allowed Stormy Daniels,

one of the key witnesses in this case, to testify in great detail about the sexual encounter she had with the former president. And there's also a big question about these jury instructions as well that I think we're going to hear a lot more about in the appeals process. I've covered many trials over the years where convictions have been reversed because of jury instructions and we had to do it all over again. I'm not saying that will happen in this case, but it is possible and the former president has signaled he does want to target those jury instructions. And in the meantime, there's the sentencing on July 11th. There is a

possibility of jail time, though most legal experts have said that that's pretty unlikely based on how crimes like this are typically sentenced. Yeah, the possibilities vary from probation to four years of incarceration. It's also possible that Judge Murchon could fashion some kind of home confinement or other kind of sentence. Obviously, this is a guy who's running for president and he wants to be able to travel around the country. He's complained bitterly, including earlier today, about the fact that he's been stuck in this courtroom and not campaigning. And so it remains to be seen whether Judge Mishon is gonna take the former president's wishes and campaign strategy in mind when he is punished for these offenses.

Marc Thiessen What would you ask a juror if you could talk to a juror? I would ask a jury, the members of the jury, how quickly they came to this decision, whether they took a vote immediately yesterday when they got this case, and why they wanted to hear so much of David Pecker, the former CEO of the company that ran the National Enquirer, why David Pecker's testimony was so compelling? The other key question I would have for them, Scott, is how much, if at all, did they credit

the testimony of Michael Cohen, the guy who was so close to the former president and whose lawyers, I had branded Michael Cohen, the greatest liar of all time? The gloat. The gloat. That's right. Carrie, we have now seen across two impeachment trials, one criminal trial, and three other criminal charges playing out. Actually, I'm going to wrap things up with you, Carrie Johnson, because one of our reporters

on the scene is now on the line. We're joined now by NPR's Andrea Bernstein, who has been in court covering this case. Andrea, tell us what you saw and heard. How did former President Trump look as this verdict was being read? He was absolutely silent, silent and stock still. The only reaction I saw for him at all was as he was walking out of the courtroom

after it was all over. He gave his son Eric who was there sort of a slap and a handshake, which was a sort of rare gesture of support or even acknowledgement of Eric, who's been there almost every day of the trial, and then he walked straight out. Andrea, you and our colleague, Jimena Bustillo,

have been sitting through this trial for four weeks, bringing us reporting from inside the courtroom. For either of you, were you surprised by what happened today seeing former President Trump found guilty on all 34 counts? It really was not. The evidence that was laid out by the DA was very extensive.

And they sort of said from the get-go, was very extensive. And they sort of said from the get-go, Michael Cohen, you don't have to rely on the testimony of Michael Cohen, former presidential attorney is going to be the one to tie together all the evidence, but he isn't the sole source of it. And they presented this overwhelming number of phone records. They went through them so many times that at one point during some sessions Josh Steinblatt, the prosecutor, said to the jury, are you still with me? Because there were so many records.

There were the checks which were sort of obviously false on their face, which former President Trump has described as reimbursements on his various forms. You know, it's a very tight case. Again, former President Donald Trump has been found guilty on all 34 felony counts in his New York criminal trial. This is a first. He was the first president or former president

in United States history to be found guilty in a criminal courtroom. Thanks to all of my NPR colleagues who joined Juana and me in the moment. We will continue talking about this. We will have a big picture episode Thanks to all of my NPR colleagues who joined Juana and me in the moment. We will continue talking about this. We will have a big picture episode sorting through this moment and what it means going forward in your feeds tomorrow. This message comes from NPR sponsor Organic Valley, a co-op of small organic family farms.

Dairy farmer Tyler Webb shares how he and his family work with nature to manage challenges on the farm. When I think of land stewardship, it's taking the opportunity to slowly walk through your farm. To listen. To try to observe subtle patterns. When you're not reliant upon pesticides and herbicides and things to navigate your way through farming, you're looking for ways to work in harmony with our ecosystem. From a pesticide perspective, flies can be a concern. And so a lot of this bird habitat we have on the farm

is because we're looking for tree swallows. They just cruise around all day long and eat flies. They come back every year in April and they put a big dent on the fly population during that period. Discover organic valley dairy at ov.coop slash ethically sourced. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Dignity Memorial. When your celebration of life is prepaid today, your family is protected tomorrow. Planning ahead is truly one of the best gifts you can give your family.

For additional information, visit DignityMemorial.com.