Trump's Trials - Witness cross-examined in hush money trial, plus new indictments in Arizona

Episode Date: April 25, 2024

For this episode of Trump's Trials host Scott Detrow speaks with NPR's Andrea Bernstein about the latest in the New York hush money trial. Later, election law professor Edward Foley explains the fake elector indictments out of Arizona. In a New York courtroom, former National Enquirer publisher David Pecker took the stand for his third day of testimony. In his testimony Pecker said Trump had intimate knowledge of hush money payments from the very beginning. Pecker was then questioned by Trump's defense team, who tried to poke holes in his story. In Arizona, 18 people have been indicted for their alleged efforts to overturn the state's 2020 election. They include some of former President Donald Trump's closet allies — former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows and his personal attorney Rudy Giuliani. Trump himself was listed as an unindicted co-conspirator. Arizona becomes the fourth state to criminally charge people related to the fake electors scheme. Topics include:- Hush money trial testimony - Cross examination begins- Fake electors scheme Follow the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify for new episodes each Saturday.Sign up for sponsor-free episodes and support NPR's political journalism at plus.npr.org/trumpstrials.Email the show at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

It's Trump Trials from NPR. I'm Scott Detro. We love Trump! This is a persecution. He actually just stormed out of the courtroom. We love him! Innocent to proven guilty in a court of law. It is episode two of this Thursday afternoon. In our earlier drop, we focused on the oral arguments at the Supreme Court,

where conservative justices were sympathetic to some of Donald Trump's arguments about presidential immunity. But this episode is about the other two big stories in the world of Trump legal news today. First, the latest from Trump's hush money trial in New York. Then charges filed in Arizona Wednesday night center on the 2020 fake elector scheme. So again, if you want to hear about the Supreme Court's oral arguments on presidential immunity, check out our most recent episodes. If you want trial news, stay put. Today was the third day of former National Enquirer publisher David Pecker's testimony.

Pecker testified about telling then candidate Donald Trump about former Playboy model Karen McDougall's claims that she had an affair with Trump and that he advised him to pay her off. Pecker was then cross-examined by Trump's defense team. Meanwhile, in Arizona, 18 people had been indicted for their alleged efforts to overturn the state's 2020 election. Trump was not one of them, but some of his most trusted allies were, like his former chief of staff Mark Meadows and his personal attorney Rudy Giuliani, and both of them had previously been charged in Georgia. Arizona becomes the fourth state now to level criminal charges against individuals involved

in fake elector schemes. So when we come back you will hear two interviews that I did today. The first with NPR's Andrea Bernstein, who is in the Manhattan courthouse all day. The second conversation is with Ohio State Professor Edward Foley, all about those Arizona indictments. Stick around. The Indicator from Planet Money is a daily podcast that helps you make sense of what's happening in the economy. And video games are a growing slice of that economy, with billions of people around the world identifying as gamers.

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And thank you. Inside a New York courthouse today, jurors got an inside peek at Donald Trump's world in the waning days of the 2016 presidential election. They heard details of secret payments, buried stories, and most of all, a first-hand look at how Trump acted to control information about his past. NPR's Andrea Bernstein was in the courthouse today and is now just outside it. Hey Andrea. Hey Scott.

So David Pecker, the former publisher of the National Enquirer, continued his testimony today. What did we learn? Pecker really lifted the veil on the seamy world of tabloid publishing and how they get stories from information brokers. So when one of these brokers, Keith Davidson, came forward in June 2016 with the story of a Playboy model, Karen McDougall, who said she had an affair with Trump, the National Enquirer was inclined to believe her. Pecker sent a top editor to speak to her, and there was testimony about Trump's former

personal attorney, Michael Cohen, calling repeatedly during this meeting, and then how after the meeting Trump himself called Pecker. And this is 2016. Trump at this point is the presumptive nominee. So Pecker spoke directly with Trump about Karen McDougal at this point? That is what Pecker testified. Pecker said Trump told him Karen is a nice girl and then asked Pecker what should I do? And Pecker said you should buy the story and take it off the market. Pecker says Cohen promised to reimburse him, telling him don't worry,

I'm your friend, the boss will take care of it. So all of this is evidence of Trump's intimate knowledge of the hush money payments from the get-go. And did the publishing company make this payment? Yeah, it did. Prosecutor Joshua Steinglass walked Pecker through a number of machinations he made to keep it secret and how Pecker was getting more and more nervous because his plan had been for Trump to reimburse him

before the end of the quarter, by September 30th, 2016. That way it would never show up on the books. Pecker said he understood it could be viewed as an illegal corporate campaign contribution if Trump never paid him. September turns to October, the other shoe drops. Yeah, and that's where, you know, Storby Daniels, the person who's gotten a lot more attention in all of these payments, emerges. Right, that's where, you know, Stormy Daniels, the person who's gotten a lot more attention in all of these payments, emerges. Right, that's right.

And she comes to the inquirer through the same information broker who brought them Karen McDougall. And Pecker says he did not want his company associated with a porn star, that he told Cohen, I am not doing it, period. And then Cohen's subsequent payment of Stormy Daniels himself and the way Trump reimbursed him becomes the basis for the 34 accounts of falsifying business records in this case. Right, allegedly disguising them as straightforward legal payments. You mentioned some phone calls. Were there other contacts between Pecker and Trump?

There was a dinner at the White House in 2017, which Pecker said Trump called a thank-you dinner to Pecker. Prosecutors showed a picture of the two walking outside the White House taken at the moment, Pecker says, when Trump asked him, how's Karen? So Pecker's been testifying all week. Cross-examination began today. Did Trump's lawyers shake a story at all? One of the key points defense attorney Emile Bovet hit on was that AMI, National Enquirer's parent company, long practiced checkbook journalism, that this was just standard operating procedure,

that the company would purchase negative stories about celebrities, like, say, Tiger Woods, and then promise to kill the story to get Woods to agree to be on a cover. Bové mentioned other politicians the National Enquirer caught stories for, like Arnold Schwarzenegger of California. Pecker said the relationship with Trump had been mutually beneficial long before the campaign, that he was their most popular celebrity.

That's NPR's Andrew Bernstein. Thanks so much. Thank you. And now we're going to shift gears to Arizona. Nearly three dozen so-called fake presidential electors have now been charged across four states. These are people who signed documents falsely claiming Donald Trump won their state in 2020 as part of a scheme to get Congress to overturn the results of the presidential election that Joe Biden won. The latest charges came this week in Arizona as part of a broader indictment of Trump allies in the swing state.

For more, we are joined by Ned Foley. He's an election law expert who teaches at The Ohio State University. Welcome to All Things Considered. Good to be with you. Before we get into these latest charges, can you quickly remind us what the goal of these fake electors was, why their actions mattered in 2020? They wanted to send this alternative set of documents claiming that Trump had won when he hadn't won in the hope that Congress would accept their documents instead of the true Biden documents, or at the least allow confusion over which documents were the valid ones to

cause Mike Pence as vice president to side with them rather than with Biden. We've seen charges now in Georgia, Michigan, and Nevada. I should mention that there was a civil settlement in Wisconsin. rather than with Biden. We've seen charges now in Georgia, Michigan, and Nevada. I should mention that there was a civil settlement in Wisconsin. What struck you from this latest round in Arizona? Well, I think the most significant thing about the Arizona indictment is that it includes individuals who are not themselves the fake electors, who weren't purporting to be the electoral voters from Arizona.

Instead, it's people associated with President Trump and the campaign who orchestrated this plot in Arizona and across other states as well. You know, the people who were indicted in Arizona have said that these charges are unjust, that they're political in nature. I'm wondering how you view this moment of accountability for this level of involvement in this broader alleged scheme that we saw play out across so many states? Sure. I think it's important to distinguish a couple of things. I think definitely some

people need to be prosecuted for the effort to subvert the election. And I think the primary culprits are former President Trump himself and some of the people closest to him, like Rudy Giuliani, for example. But the fake electors themselves, in my mind, are coming two different categories, if you will, speaking generally. One are people who are very plugged in politically, like the chair of a state party.

They were instrumental in organizing the plot to subvert the elector and therefore arguably have the same kind of criminal culpability that the leaders of the plot did. But there were other fake electors in some of these states who kind of went along with the ride, who were almost as much victims of the fraud as perpetrators of the fraud. So I think it's important to distinguish exactly who are the perpetrators versus who are the victims here. Now, Trump was not charged in this case. Of course, he's facing criminal charges actively

this week in a couple other cases. But here in this Arizona group of charges, Trump was not charged in this case. Of course, he's facing criminal charges actively this week and a couple other cases. But here in this Arizona group of charges, he was listed as an unindicted co-conspirator. Can you tell me what you make of that, what that means in the scope of the charges that were brought in Arizona? Yes. I mean, I think that's an indication that Trump is the one ultimately responsible for all of this alleged criminality, whether it's in the January 6th federal case in Washington or in this Arizona case. I mean,

all of this was done at Trump's behest for his benefit. Do you think going into this next presidential election, another attempt like this is more or less likely based on the focus of the last few years? I think less likely doesn't mean that the risk is zero, but the most important protection that we got was the new law that Congress passed at the end of 2022, which is the Electoral Count Reform Act. That cleared up language in this old federal statute that had some ambiguity in it that invited, unfortunately, this whole plot to try to manipulate

the session of Congress on January 6th. That's Ned Foley, a professor of election law at Ohio State. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Trump's Trials from NPR. Keep an eye out for more episodes like this whenever big news happens. And we'll be back later this week

with our rake of a show on Saturday. I'm Scott Detro. Hey, I hear you have a birthday coming up. Yeah, you if you're listening to this, that means you have a birthday coming up eventually and here at life kit, we want it to be a special one. If you're listening to this, that means you have a birthday coming up eventually. And here at LifeKit, we want it to be a special one. Magic can happen and good luck can happen and serendipity can happen if we're open to it. How to have a good birthday, even if you're not a birthday person.

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