Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash - #58 BONUS Three Doting Dads ft. Sean Szeps

Episode Date: April 7, 2024

Growing up in America, Sean Szeps always wanted to be a mum until he realised that a few things were standing in the way of that dream. Sean is a podcast host, writer, and content creator who has found a platform to share his journey as a gay husband raising 6-year-old boy-girl twins Stella and Cooper. As you can imagine, Sean's road to becoming a dad is full of ups and downs, including surrogacy, overcoming post-natal depression and parenting mishaps.  Buy Sean's book 'Not Like Other Dads' here  https://shorturl.at/lJOUX If you or someone you know is struggling, be sure to contact Lifeline at 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue at 1300 22 4636. Slide into our DM's @twodotingdads with any parenting question you need answered by a couple of doting dads. If you need a shoulder to cry on:  Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads  Email: [e-mail] omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Well, well, well, who would have thought me and Ash coming into your ear holes. Weird situation for everybody. We have a bonus ep going straight into your ear holes. Matt, tell us who it is. It is Sean Zeps. He is a hilarious content creator. You can find his stuff on Instagram or TikTok. Sean Zeps is his handle.

He's also a podcast host and an author. Yes, his book, Not Like Other Dads. And I have to say, he's a very lovely and funny man. And it was very welcoming. He had us in his house. Couldn't get rid of us. It's a great story. It's the very first time we've had a same-sex couple.

Sean is married to Josh, and they have twins, Cooper and Stella. Yes, and they are six years old. So he's got a little bit more experience than you and I, Matt. So I believe there will be some advice. It's a great chat, but we do touch on some mental health topics. And if you or anyone is struggling, please reach out to Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1 300 double two four six three six. All'm Matty J. I'm Ash. And I'm Sean Zapps. And this is a podcast that is all about parenting. It is the good, the bad, and the relatable. And I will say definitely on this episode, there will be some advice.

Yes. Normally, there is none given from either myself. Get your pads and your pens out. You're about to learn something. Sean, I need to apologize for the amount of faffing that we have taken this morning. We got here an hour ago. We are pretty good at faffing. Sorry.

No, I love it. We will get out of your house before nightfall. We promise you. What time do the kids come home? Three o'clock. Yeah. Right after three. They're going to have to wait.

I'm not sure. Just stay outside until we're finished. I would like to know sean to start off the conversation a young sean he's young now younger still fresh gotta butter him up mate you can't just go straight in like that sorry apologies a younger beautiful sean was he always wanting to have a family? Yeah. Interesting question because it's like a rollercoaster ride. When I was a kid, I really wanted to be a dad. I had an awesome dad, still alive, still awesome, but I had a really great role model as a father and an amazingly

involved mother. And so when I was really young, long before I realized who I was, we'll get there. Yes. Before society puts all this stuff in your mind, I just thought 100% that's what I would do. I was raised Roman Catholic, very religious family. And so the idea of husband and wife and children, especially through the lens of the church church was just at the very top of my list. And so if you met me like really, really young, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and asked me like what I wanted to be, I actually would have said a mother. Wow. Yeah. Quite interesting. I thought you were going to say an astronaut. No, I would have been like a ballet dancer, a superstar and a mom. I just thought it was such an early idea and clearly a sign of my homosexuality coming outside. But I just thought a dad at that time meant something.

And a mom was really crafty and involved and cooking. And my mom was a stay-at-home mom. And I just thought that was really cool. Like long before I knew what gender was or sexuality, I was just like, I would like that. I don't want to work. I want to be at home with the kids. I want to have six of them. I'm going to be a really good mom. Six kids. I mean, back then I just thought. More the merrier. More the merrier, right? Then I realized for, you know, you're a dude, that's not, that's not an option for you. And i realized i was gay so it's like

in in order you have these massive roadblocks that go well you can't be a mom you're definitely going to be a dad and that means something back then it meant something can i ask what what age is this roughly where you have your realization of who you are sexually 11 11 yeah oh my goodness yeah 10 is when i mean i knew around eight that i definitely liked guys but 11 is like you do not like you keep trying and praying dude but the woman parts you know you're not waking up each day like god's not helping you but 11 is like oh shit for sure this is the thing and around that time is when i just decided to kill off the parent dream you got to like the just there weren't examples. You couldn't get married legally.

I didn't know a single queer person in any way, shape or form. And on top of that, the ones I did know that you might read about or see in a movie, they didn't have children. So I just decided, cool, like if this is your thing and it's going to cause drama and you're probably going to get kicked out of your house and you're definitely going to get kicked out of your house. And you're definitely going to get kicked out of the church. Like just bury that dream. Is this, I'm assuming over an extended period of time that you're just shoveling this dream into the basement and shutting the door? Absolutely. It's the technical term would be internalized homophobia, right?

You're like taking all the homophobia from out there in the world and you start to just bury it and swallow it and it gets bigger and bigger. The religious element is quite interesting because you're also on top of that trying to apply pressure on yourself to be a good christian boy right you want to you want to get through it you want to like go to heaven if you can so i thought okay well i don't want to be a sinner and i so like why not just not do any of that like why not you won't date you won't act on it suppress it and just yeah everything figure out how to be straight lie uh and so yeah i guess like between 11 and

all the way up until 22 wow i was like that is you are never going to be a parent so that's the roller coaster it's like i started wanting nothing more but to be like my mom yeah and then i decided you will never be a parent and then then boom, the world starts to change and you get to wake up to like, oh crap, maybe you can go back to that dream and revisit it. Maybe you could be a dad. When you're pretending to be straight. Yeah.

Was there anything that you pretended to like that you didn't like, but you're like, this is a straight people thing. That's so interesting because so much. I feel like vagina would be one. Tits? Vagina? Football?

Just like a wild guess. End of podcast. That's it. That's it. That's all I have to say. Oh, that's good. Very good question. I mean, that is the actual answer.

Other than sexual organs, was there anything else? always think more in the realms of like sport but yeah other than I'm in the room though Matt you know hard to unpick

because the truth is who I am today is built up of most of those like I think we all do it we're young and we just like

want to be like our dads or want to be like yeah you're trying to fit in with that even with your mates that's like they might like something as a as a hetero yeah it's like some mates might like something that you kind of don't but just because you want to fit in with them you're like yeah me too I love motocross and then you can't unpick it you're like 30 years later you really like some 41 you're like why do we like some 41 we just went to bling 182 we just went to bl like why do I like some 41 I was trying to impress a girl we just went to bling 192 we just went to bling 192

I was like when I was a kid I really didn't like them that much but I was just like everyone else did exactly I come from a sports family like elite athletes

my mom my dad my brother and my sister all went to college like full paid wow and so sports is the answer

like not I'm a very big fan today of basketball and tennis. And I watch every day and I'm like, watch the recaps from the States. But how much of that actually is just because I wanted my dad to think I was cool.

Like I had the lingo that he had, or like if we're going to go to games, am I going to be the one who stays at home and does like arts and crafts on the fucking table? Absolutely not. So yeah, probably sports is the answer even though it's very stereotypical it's definitely true think you may have pretended to like like it for so long it became something you actually really liked or loved i often say

to other people when they ask that question or in the realm of how much of being a young boy specifically trying to be macho how much of that performance lives in me today. Like my voice is definitely lower than the stereotype of, oh my God, like the higher pitch kind of gay. And how much of the way that I talk was even shaped back then when I'm talking to my dad in the morning. I say a lot of words that me and my brother would say like, hey man, you know i say a lot of words that me and my brother would say like hey man hey bro what's going on dude i still talk that way i don't know if i was being raised today you know modern parents are pretty cool with kids expressing themselves if i wouldn't even sound like this i i have no idea so then in a world where your identity is so blurred how nice was it to have that dream of being a dad

be able to come back to life and be an opportunity again? Oh, it was pretty cool. Do you remember the moment? Yeah, definitely. Josh and I met in New York City when I was 22. And he was like,

do you want to have kids? Are we in a park? We're all good romantic stories. We're in a hetero bar. We are at a head Troy bar. At a football game. Doing arts and crafts at a football game. We were literally

in the bathroom line at a gay bar. So like, you know. Yeah. Before like app culture had kind of exploded. And we probably So you just were

next to each other. Yeah, he was behind me. He was actually an asshole. He goes, Santa Claus called. He wants his hat back. And I had like a red beanie on and i and i was like i literally said fuck you dude and he just walked away into the office he'd like drop the comment and then booked it and then maybe an hour later i had the hat off like tucked in my back pocket like took it right

off i was like you asshole i don't want influenced you i'm still trying to get laid it's friday night like i don't you know i don't want to look like santa and he came back and he was like don't want influenced you I'm still trying to get laid it's a Friday night like I don't you know I don't want to look like Santa and he came back and he was like don't fucking listen to people like that like I was being like don't listen

wow put the hat back on so I like put it back on and then he and then we made out pushed me against the wall beautiful so uh

like maybe like date four or five he's like do you want kids and I was like absolutely not of course not what do you want kids? And I was like, absolutely not. Of course not. What do you mean? What fantasy world are you living in, bro?

Like, you think we're going to have kids? We can't even get married. What year was this? In 2011. Okay. So, like, technically, there were definitely queer people having children, but it was, you know, they were juggling.

They were doing it with their friends and turkey bastering in a bathroom, or, you know or they were adopting. But the stories up until then were few and far between. Yeah, I suppose social media wasn't quite at the forefront either. So it wouldn't have been like you could go onto Instagram and follow someone's journey so closely that you can follow them now.

You would have to have really, like we went to adoption classes and you would see gay couples there but it was still one out of the like 50 what's an adoption class when you are considering doing adoption like before you're signing up yeah you just go and like sit in an audience you know you're just in the back and they teach you about it and they talk about the process they have a panel of people have gone through the process i guess like an info session would have been better and being a same-sex couple are they welcoming to to you? Or do you find that there was a level

of judgment when you walk through the door? When you're a queer person, you do a lot of, I was going to say unnecessary, but very necessary research long before you put yourself in that uncomfortable situation. So we just found the ones that on their website said like LGBTQI friendly or whatever. So we were in an environment where they would be like, you and your wife or... So blatantly obvious. We're like, you two.

Or you two in the front row. But mostly, you know, you're just surrounded by mostly straight people. And so I just thought he was living in a fantasy land. And so over the course of maybe five years, Josh changed his tune and decided, well,

I want to have kids because Sean doesn't want them and I want him. So we just, you know, got married and just thought that wasn't going to happen. But then when you're living in New York city, it's a lot like, I mean, there really isn't that many examples in Australia. Unfortunately unfortunately pets no my pets absolutely not you think that maybe like

a lot of people who think that they can't have kids they substitute it with with pets i'm sure they do i mean gays love nothing more than like a little chihuahua a little baby dog or a great yeah but not for me i was like no i can barely take care of myself I was like 24 years old yeah that's true in New York City I was not gonna have like the idea of having a dog

in a city just stresses the shit out of me like those small little apartments it was the size of this there's so many dogs in New York though I mean tons

I was there a year later than like what you're sort of talking about and I was like there's fucking dogs there's more dogs and people here yeah

but at this point you're 24. Josh is a bit older though. By a decade. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he has a decade on me. Yeah, right. Which I guess makes sense to why he was championing this cause.

Yeah, I think it mattered a lot more to him. Tick and time. Like he was like, how much longer do I have? He can't give birth. No. But he specifically said early on, like, I don't want to be the dad who can't throw his kid up in the air. Like, I don't want to start that far. And then what was funny is

you're just walking in New York City, one of the queerest cities in the world, right? And all of a sudden you're walking down the street and you start to see gay couples with children. Like, you know, you see one and then five days later you see another. And then all of a sudden you're in San Francisco or LA where I worked.

And you're just seeing right in front of your eyes like queer people and not just queer people with children like normally happy they seem like just like everyone else and it just started to like seep into my brain because I think it's important the distinction to understand it's not just am I willing to do this because people have been willing to put themselves in uncomfortable situations diverse people have been willing to do this? Because people have been willing to put themselves in uncomfortable situations. Diverse people have been willing to take huge gambles. It's, are you willing to do this and deal with the ramifications of it? And for me, the answer was no.

And then you start to see people who genuinely don't seem afraid. You're walking by a school pickup and there's gay dads who are like, Billy, and they seem, and then moms are talking to them. And I thought, hey thought hey maybe it's maybe all the stories you've told yourself the fear that has lived inside of you forever and ever and ever maybe it actually won't be scary that must be so fucking hard to digest it's like that's such a true comment too like just around really a lot

of things like where you're like the stories you've told yourself yeah is what is probably way worse than the actual reality of it totally i think the gay lived experience is the insular like your parents aren't like you your siblings aren't like you your neighbors aren't like you when you're young it's really hard to find other people like you especially if you grow up in a small town like i did so when you're older it's easy to convince yourself that everything you're going through is just you. No one else has ever thought to have kids. No one else has gone through this. It's just me. And then you're in the city and you're like, well, here's a lot of options, tons of people,

and they seem cool. They obviously went through the same journey you did. Maybe it is possible. So did you guys initially go down the adoption route then? Yeah, yeah. We didn't know that there were other options. As informed and clever and savvy as we were, I just thought you foster or you adopt. So we went to some fostering sessions and realized right away

that that wasn't going to work out for us. Just the emotional stress of potentially falling in love with a child and then having them go back to the family. I was like, I can't do that. It's beautiful. People should absolutely look into it if they can. And was there an expectation that, you know, adopting was the right thing to do or the only option that you had? Was there like a big expectation on that? Yeah, I think definitely. And I remember when I talked to other people about having kids,

I think the pressure they put specifically on queer people is like, you're going to adopt, right? They would just say it. So you're like, yeah, I guess that is what I'm going to do. And if you Google back then, like I, I never, I didn't see websites that were like, gay people can do IVF, surrogacy. I didn't even know what that word was. The story goes, I was on Facebook one day as you do in 2011 and some girl posts like pregnant and i didn't even read the post i just commented and was like congratulations so happy for you and your husband and then she just sent me a dm that was like hey not sure if you read the post but i'm i'm a surrogate like i'm caring for someone else so it's actually not my and i was like what are you talking about what's a

fucking surrogate what i googled it right away and was like oh my god she's pregnant for someone else that's wild yeah and she said when this pregnancy is over i would love to carry for you and josh oh my god and then all of a sudden you go from having no idea what this option is to this is my option she is gonna carry my children like you know it must be like such a surreal moment. And then you guys going, someone's willing to do that for us. Like, holy shit. There's a few different pieces to the puzzle, right?

Because you've got someone to carry. Yeah. But do you use her egg? So you definitely can. So there are lots of options. There is anonymous donors for eggs, anonymous donors for sperm. So you could not use you or your partner at all and just take a sperm and an egg donor,

create the embryo, and you could have children that are not biologically connected to either one of you for whatever reason. Maybe you have both of you and your partner. Would that be, I don't want to sound horrible, a cost-effective option that way? No. I mean, how do you put a price on a human life? I'm not trying to say that. A cost-effective option that way? No.

I mean, how do you put a price on a human life? I'm not trying to say that. No, these are good questions because you have to pay for both. Yeah. And yeah, there's a cost attached to both of them. Okay. There's a cost attached sometimes to the retrieval process. So if you select someone who hasn't gone through the process,

who hasn't donated to a bank, either for egg or sperm, you got to pay for them to go through the whole process. So what a lot of people do is the most people who do surrogacy or IVF or straight is they take the sperm or the eggs from whatever partner can give naturally and then they combine. And so you can do that where one partner gives and then the eggs or the sperm come from a bank and then i guess the other that's like the two ivf process so for us we had to throw a massive spanner in the works of this story i started telling everyone that we were going to do surrogacy and then someone came forward from my family and offered to donate eggs wow i can't imagine the the feeling like how amazing that would have been.

Also, I guess there must be a lot of cases though where someone is like, that sounds great. I'd love to help out. And then when it comes to the actual point, they're like, actually, this is too hard. I'm a bit busy at the moment. Oh, so many girlfriends of mine had said, I'd love to give you a massage.

I'll do it. Did I tell you I'm a meth addict? No, but I am now I think that whole three month period because it was three months really between finding out that there was

you know we would go down the surrogacy path and then getting the offer the world has been pretty dark like if you just use social media

the news consumption it's easy to get wrapped up and like things are not great. And at that time, Trump states. That's what it's like to live in America at that time. It's like a lot of tension. And then you have these two people who are like, I will put my

life on the line. Because we're not talking about like, you know, pregnancy. Both of you do. You're literally risking your life. For a stranger? All of a sudden I thought, maybe the world's not so shit like this is pretty impressive yeah it's pretty selflessness to a t yeah and then you think of my family member what outside of the physical ramifications of going through an egg retrieval the psychological layers of being around those children potentially for the rest of their lives and yours and to always know that there's a biological component and there's a lot of layers

there for sure you got you know she went to therapy and she did that work and before she brought it up to us she did all of that stuff oh my goodness so she did a lot of wonderful stuff i'm assuming because it's a family member, Josh used his sperm. You know that you were the first person to not immediately go, so who gave this sperm? I'm like, good for you. Thank you.

I'm always like, if me and my family member made the embryos, that would not turn out good for the kids. Yeah, so the decision was easy. Once you have that egg offer, it's just 100% get Josh tested, A-OK, good to go. Make the embryos. Wow. So I guess in a sense, there is a biological connection with your children. To both. Yeah. Was it any different having children that are not from your sperm?

Yeah. It's a good question. I think for probably six months, I was like, okay, you got to come to terms with the fact that he's going to be the biological dad and you're not going to have that relationship. When I looked into like the science of the way in which family members are connected, I don't know if you've ever met someone, you're like, you look so much like your uncle, or you look so much like your grandfather, but you don't much like your grandfather but you don't look like your father you don't look like your mother so i thought maybe there's this hope that my kids are going to look just like me and i don't you've seen them they look just like me they look a lot more like me sometimes than my husband and people say that and i'm sure that feels like a god to him because he's like that's me i'm the one who

pulled through but even for even for that like for us uh like i'll to Matt, Lola looks so much like Laura, but Marley looks so much like Matt. And my mum was like, I don't see it. Yeah. My mum was like, you just met these kids. And then she's like, oh, I see a lot of Laura and I see a lot of Matt online. And then same with my kids.

Like my son is like mini me. Yes. You know, like, but then some people will be like, oh, I see so much April in Oscar. I'm like, what? But it does hurt when people Yes. You know, like, but then some people will be like, oh, I see so much April in Oscar. I'm like, what? But it does hurt when people say,

you know, along the lines of you didn't really get a look in with Lola. It's just a spitting image of Laura. And I'm like, oh,

my, like, yeah, my genes are weak. Well, it's like, look at Macy, like Oscar.

So like my, half of my family, part of my family is indigenous. So Oscar really got that. Yeah. It's really dark. He had a Mongolian patch.

Like he's, he is an indigenous kid. Then my daughter is white. She is pale. She's, I always joke that she glows in the dark and a redhead. Yeah. And I'm like, but like I went to an indigenous school with a lot of redhead indigenous kids. But like, it's like a lot of people would be like, look at her and then look at me and they go she's not yours like as a joke yeah and i'm like well i'm gonna just look at it was like the milkman's kid probably but like yeah it's it like it does

hurt sometimes and you're like oh shit do you think do you think it helped a great deal knowing that they had a lot of you you know, appearance wise, very similar to yourself and your family? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I'll be honest. I did a lot of work long before we made the decision to do it. Because once you decide you want to have kids, you have to decide, can you deal with all of this? Can you financially throw down the amount of money that is required to go through IVF and pay a surrogate? All of that, right? It's hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's the average person couldn't even do it without taking out huge loans.

You got to do all that. And then psychologically, you got to decide, am I cool with this? And I just decided really early on, like, I just want to be a dad. Like, I don't give a shit. I don't care the color of their skin. I don't care what their gender is.

I don't care how we get these children. You know, for a lot of straight people, you know, ba-dum-boom, it just happens. Like, it's an accident you're like here we go shit sorry guilty by two best turns so i think for me it was like listen you know you're already different you got to hack the system to make this dream a reality who cares who cares there is not a single moment that i've ever looked at my children since they were born and been like do you know how much it costs to bring you into this world like i tell

them every night i've never used like my lack of biological connection they don't know that they know exactly where they came from and how our family was made but they don't think i'm less than j, right? I went down the wrong path. I was trying to hold that in. It's an emotional story. He saw that. He is crying. Sorry, I tried to hold that in so bad that it made it worse.

Now my eyes are watering. So yeah, it's pretty good. And so the kids were born in the States? Yeah. So it's not legal to do what we did in Australia. That's fucking wild. Can you just elaborate on that for me? I'd love to. What. So it's not legal to do what we did in Australia. That's fucking wild. Can you just elaborate on that for me? What part of it is not legal?

So there are two types of surrogacy. There's altruistic where you do it out of the goodness of your heart. So your siblings, they could totally do it for you, but they would need to do it for free. So they would not get compensation. Right. So the moment you would pay someone for the time, going to the hospital, the clothes that they need to wear the food that they need to eat, all the visits the actual surgery, the time off from work

compensating for what they're doing for your family this could be a really dumb question and I apologize if it is, how much do you pay someone to do all of that so I think at the top range of Beyonce, it's probably hundreds of thousands of dollars I think at the top range of like Beyonce, it's probably like hundreds of thousands

of dollars, like 800,000. Get Beyonce on the phone. There's estimates about her specific story because it's similar to ours with the twins, anywhere between like five and 800,000. The average is like 30 to 50 to 75. And that's based off of the surrogate's experience giving birth right so if she has like our surrogate um had three children already her family's finished she carried all three to term didn't need any uh didn't have c-section she's a perfect she's the perfect specimen someone like that who um would probably charge a little bit more potentially than someone who this is their first time. Wow. But you know

that 30 to like 75 range is probably the going cost. So then you've been through this very long and difficult sometimes confusing expensive journey. You're now a dad. Yeah. The children are born yeah is it

everything you've dreamt of being a parent oh god no it's like so shitty i mean listen we know it's just like kids don't go easy on you because you're gay they don't go easy they don't know your sexuality well they should i wish they did society uh doesn't care really at all like they're all the additional elements that get you there like once the child is in your hand it's just as difficult as everybody else's i think the one thing i have going for me and people who struggle to conceive straight couples who went down 11, sometimes you'll hear those stories. They've gone down seven cycles, 11. The only difference is in the beginning, you are absolutely a lot more thankful and gracious with yourself. When things are really

difficult, you constantly check in and you're like, so I had this conversation with myself and I still do. Or I'll look in the mirror and be like, do you understand that for all of human history, all of it, the whole entire time, people like you couldn't even get married the whole time, for all of human history, people like you who loved like you do couldn't have kids. And you just happened to be born in the exact fucking decade. That shit's crazy.

That is crazy. And so when parenting is really stressful, which is every single day, you're fighting with your partner. I do have these moments where I look in the mirror and I'm like, bro, you do not understand what an amazing, lucky gift you had. And that does help like 10% of the time.

Because can I ask, that could do two things. Put wind in your sail, but then also put a huge amount of guilt on your shoulders if you can't snap out of it. And if you're like, I'm so fucking lucky and I'm not appreciating this. I'm not loving it with every fiber of my body. I'm a piece of shit. Yeah, that's a good point. It's interesting. I haven't gone down the negative path so much because to be honest every parent who's listening to this knows like there's not a lot that can coach you out of a shitty day it just it's pretty stressful once you're in it you you're in it really it's intense and i never on a day-to-day basis i don't think about my sexuality ever i'm not like walking to the cafe being like here i am walking as a

i'd like a flat white because I'm a homosexual. It doesn't happen. And you pop your pinky out. See? But the moments where I am reminded are around other parents. Yeah. So you are constantly confronted with the fact that you're just a little bit different when you're filling out forms or at the doctor's office

and you have to cross out mother and father. I'm always surprised. I know you've spoken about it before elsewhere. And it's just a sign of my naivety, I guess. But a mother's group, for you, that was something that was very difficult. Can you explain that? Yeah. Listen, I moved to a new country with two-month-old twins. My husband had been gone for 12 years. So even though he's coming home, the world has changed. His mates have kids that are as old as 15 all the way down. So they're busy with their lives. I left my job the day that the kids were born. And so I don't have a job. I

don't have friends. Josh's family didn't live here at the time. I'm just starting fresh. On top of that, I'm a stay-at-home dad with twins. And so I thought, I got to get into a parenting group. I have to. Or else, what am I going to do? And so I just went to the New South Wales government website and started searching around. And I called the local hospital. And I was like, hi, I've just moved to Balmain. And I'm just wondering if you could connect me with a local parenting group. And she was like, I'm confused. Did you get birth here, sir? Is this the emergency room? We can't help you. But she was like, you didn't get birth here.

Is this an emergency? Yes! It is! It is! And so they couldn't help me. They were like, really sorry, but if you get birth here, we can connect you with that specific group. But don't worry, the government website has information. You'll be able to find something. I logged on and back then there was just mother's

groups. And I thought, well, I'll just find the local mother's group. Couldn't figure it out through the website, went to the Facebook group. You got to apply for the New South Wales mother's group. You got to apply. And I obviously didn't get accepted. I'm a dude. Like they didn't welcome me. I'm still waiting on the acceptance. We should check on that. It's pending. And so I decided, okay, well, if it's not working through that formal process, just go up to the mother's groups. I went to the park, you know, five days a week in Balmain. And I saw that there was a group of women who were meeting every Tuesday and Thursday. You're writing it down. Oh, no joke. Like psycho.

On my phone. They're probably like, what's this dude doing over here with two kids? I went to school for acting. They had no idea. Good morning. Hi, ladies. You've got trackers on each one of them. They're on the move.

But I was like, those are my ones because all their kids are the same age. That's all I was looking for. I was like, are they around the same age? because all their kids are the same age. That's all I was looking for was like, are they around the same age? And so I slowly befriended one of them who sometimes was there on her own. She was very nice to me.

And then I just asked one day, I was like, hey, I'm new. Are kids the same age? Like, are you accepting new members? Is there a form? I'm a good guy. I'm really nice, I swear. And she, they all, oh, this woman looked at me

and she just had the look in her eyes of like, I'm going to let you down, bro. But she was like, I'm really sorry. We don't feel comfortable having a guy in the group. Wow. To be honest, I got it in the moment. I'm still a little upset about it. But in the moment I thought, our kids are brand new.

They're all two months old. And her answer was like, we're talking about some serious shit. Like, we're talking about bloody... She told me. Like, I think what she said was like, we're talking about like vaginas ripping open to buttholes. And I was like, listen, I can handle that.

You don't know what game that I'm talking about. Bloody buttholes? No kidding. That's nothing. And what are you supposed to say? Yeah, I would be like, whoa. It's a bit of an asshole move. Yeah.

The number one part of my book that I get contacted by, by far, 80% of women who reach out is just because of that story. And 50% of them are like, I totally get why they said no. Because in that early phase, you want to go to that table and rip on your husband. You just want to rip on him. And then here at the table is a dude who might put that. He's a spy.

I'm literally a spy. And I can't say to them, don't worry. I'm the wife in the relationship. I get it too. None of that means anything. Also, they don't know me. I'm random. Yeah.

And most of the time when I'm at the playground, and I'm sure you guys can relate to this, but in those early days in Balmain, at least there weren't a lot of dads out there. And when there were, we didn't like, we had awkward chats, but the moms didn't talk to me. Also,

I'm young and beautiful. They were confused. Are you? And I think they thought I was a nanny. Or like an uncle. People used to say to me all the time, like, how long have you been with the kids?

I'm like, their whole lives. But I think, you know, sometimes I look i i dress the way i dress like i think it's confusing to people like what are you doing here clearly homosexual like what are you doing you must be a nanny so they just ignored me so i think i just decided in that moment like that's not going to be for you so you're going to have to figure out your own way and so i just did parenting so it would have made you feel really, really isolated. I don't know where we would be without them in a way. So I can imagine that would have been really, really tough.

Yeah. Who became your biggest support network then? I didn't have one. So I met my best parenting friend 18 months in. Wow. Okay. So I did it solo. But I guess like the elephant in Okay. So I did it. It's a long time. I did it solo. But I guess like the elephant in the room is I spiraled.

So it wasn't like I just skipped through the 18 months by myself. I just decided to be isolated. I obviously have a great husband, but he was working full time. And yeah, I just decided you'll have to figure it out by yourself. And that's what I've since learned because the government has changed their policy. And now you go on the website and there are father's groups and parent groups and mother's groups. As there totally should be. Especially like, I know for me, I've got friends that as guys have sort of isolated themselves in those early moments as well.

And since Matt and I did a mental health episode last year and since then I had heaps of them come back to me and say shit I didn't know you were feeling like that too and I felt like that now like now that they're

now they're feeling better but like it's it should it it's crazy that the world was like that where it was like you know who gives a shit about that yeah no matter the

circumstance and I think it depends where you live like in bondi and in most of the inner west i've heard a lot like uh northern beaches like parenting groups even back then where dads were able to kind of pile it in at random moments and watch the kids with the same group well that's what yeah that's sort of what the deal that we have but now we've all just developed into inmates yeah but i guess you all just developed into mates. Yeah. But I guess you have to take into consideration like what Balmain is and what it was then.

It's a different group of people. And so I just decided that Balmain was all of Australia, which was a little naive. But in the moment, you know, you're very lonely, you're sleep deprived. So you do jump to these nasty conclusions. And so instead of doing what I could have done, which is like, if not Balmain, then Roselle. And if not Roselle, then Leichhardt. And if not Leichhardt, and just work your way through. Like a salesman. Literally. I'm sure I would have found them. Suburb to suburb. Park after park after park. I would have found them. When did you realize that your mental health was something that you couldn't deal with on your own?

I've had a long, tumultuous history with mental health. So I, you know, as a young queer kid in the church popped up pretty early. And so my mom put me in therapy when I was 12. Wow. She was like, I don't have the answers to deal with whatever the hell you're going through. In America, we're a couple decades ahead of Australia as far as it not being that shameful, specifically for men to get mental health support and so she was like i don't know the answers we'll give you a local therapist and so from 12 all the way up until the story i had been in and out of therapy whenever i needed it you know when things were going tough i would sign up and then i would you know drop back but i thought specifically to go back to

what you said about feeling the pressure of being the first generation of gay parents i decided you fought for this you paid for it people don't want you to do this so do not complain bro shut up yeah oh you're sad oh it's you know i just was like shut up you're just like you know yeah you wouldn't allow yourself to be sad and be ungrateful not ungrateful but like have that feeling it's like well people have never had this chance so just shut up and get on with it literally and i wasn't going to complain to my husband because i had begged him to be a stay-at-home dad like i would i put pressure on him you got to get that next job get the money because i don't want to work like you know i felt like i convinced my

parents i was going to be great at this so i just kept shut but the moment that i was like oh dude you need help for sure is i had been working out a exit strategy to get out of the country by myself. Very kind of like unbeknownst to me, it was just happening. I would like Google at night, one-way tickets, best place to escape to. Countries you can disappear.

And just like almost as a joke, but like how many people do it. And then one night I went to the airport in the middle of the night, three in the morning, uh, slam the door, the kids, they had shit everywhere and I just couldn't handle it anymore.

Grab the keys, drove to Sydney international airport, got out and just like looked at the entrance and was like, are you going to, are you going to like, whoa, your mind is broken, dude. It's a huge, huge step. What was stopping you then when you're at the airport and you've been fantasizing about getting away? What was holding you back?

It's interesting. It wasn't necessarily being held back. It was, weirdly enough, the reminder of what I needed, which was my husband. You know, those early days, the only thing you want to do is get a divorce. I don't want anything to do with you. I don't want your help. Plus, I'm lying to you, so I'm not telling you what's happening because I want you to seem like I'm really good at this.

I don't want you to be afraid that I'm the one being left with the kids and I'm depressed and crying every day. Like if I had done that, I don't know what he would have done. I thought maybe the kids would get taken away. That's what I thought. Like, hey, husband, when you're gone at work every day, I cry in the shower. I cry when I make him breakfast. I cry while they nap. Like, yeah, I just thought, keep your mouth shut. Super common though. So common. I was Josh in the situation, right? I would work full time, not what I do now, which I'm really flexible. I was nine to five in the city from Northern Beaches. I was gone for 12 hours of the day.

I come home to a broken person sitting in my house with my only child that I resented. So like, yeah, like you don't want them as much as April tried to hide it from me like you know you can tell. Yeah I mean

exactly even the fake smiles like they can send somethings up. But at the moment I remember at the airport

just thinking oh shit I just need Josh like that's what I need. So did you call him or did you drive home? It was like

four in the morning so I I drove back home and I got into bed and I didn't say anything and I promised myself that I wasn't going to tell morning. So I drove back home and I got into bed and I didn't say anything. And I promised myself that I wasn't going to tell anyone.

So he woke up totally unaware. He found out when the book came out. Holy shit. I mean, I obviously told him before. I was like, would you like to read this chapter? Just read this line. He read the whole book and then you're sitting there with your arms like

see that's great he wakes up and goes I have this weird dream like someone took the car do you have the airport no but when he woke up

I did say I need help like I need to I need to get to a doctor I think I'm I think I the words I used were

I'm like I think right now I might be a danger to the kids, was what I said. And you just call the doctor's office and they're like, we can see you in seven business days. That's so brave of you to do that. Because so many people don't. Thanks. We've had people reach out to us that have said, a lot of young moms have said, I think my husband's going through a similar thing. Or I think I'm going through a similar thing. Or even dads are like, I think my husband's going through a similar thing or I think I'm going through a similar thing.

Or even dads are like, I think my wife's the same as well. It's so brave of you to actually say it out loud, even though it's the closest person to you. It's crazy. That's nice to hear. I think it goes back to the foundation of therapy therapy the foundation of being like hey um i'm struggling because even though i'm gay like i have all the same issues that every guy has from being a man in society where it's like just toughen up like shut up yeah get on with it you didn't get birth you're not here breastfeeding every day get over yourself like shut up was like that that

narrative was still in my head be tough like man up a little bit yeah it was absolutely that narrative but if you have a foundation of love when things are shitty of raising your hand to just one person it doesn't need to be a lot it isn't it can just be a stranger too but in that moment of being like okay you gotta you gotta tell somebody and write it down yeah write it down and slide them a note, whatever works for you. When you started seeing someone professionally to get help, and this is coming from, again, a place of naivety because I haven't gone through that process myself, but are there any tools that you're given to better handle the situation or is it just a case of being with a therapist

and airing out those thoughts is what helps in itself? The government is pretty impressive. This country, when it comes to healthcare, you know, we can judge it in isolation. But when you consider some of the other countries in the world, the fact that I went to the doctors, I immediately took a postnatal depression test, which said mother on the page twice. So like, you got to deal with that. It doesn't make it worse. It absolutely makes it worse. You're like, great.

Not only have I failed, this is like the lowest. Not a single man has ever had this problem that they've never once considered to change the form. And the doctor was like, my apologies. And folded the top. Subtle. At least he tried. So you take the test and what comes out is a number. And if the number is above a specific thing, like above 20, it means things are bad.

And if it's above 30, that person needs psychiatric support immediately. And my number was in that category. So immediately I qualify to go to Tresillian, which is a full-funded government house, a hospital, where you can go and for a couple of days have help with sleep. And they take care of the kids and they work with you to help sleep train so that you can get to a place. Because all of this is happening, as we all know, while you're sleep-deprived. And so if you can get the parent in a better mental headspace through sleep, so they're not literally sleep-deprived, then they can think more clearly. They take your baby from you at night. So one so like we did a similar thing we did eight weeks essentially and like the

first week is really important for mom dad whoever to get rest because they're like the number one thing is just get some rest like and you honestly if a week after just like a week in you and you've got the rest again you start to think so much more clearly about your situation absolutely it's so helpful there's a reason why sleep deprivation is a form of torture because it works right mate oh like they're talking at you and you're just feeling worse and worse and worse or they're asking you questions and you're in another world thinking about escaping and so to get the sleep and then be able to look at the doctor, I guess like the best things that they did for me,

I did get medical support. So I went on medication right away. It was clear that where I was at was actually dangerous for myself, for my husband, for my children. And so that medical support was embarrassing. Like I was embarrassed. Absolutely, that was one of the lowest points where i thought

not only have you so much stigma around being medicated yeah and i didn't want that when they told it to me i said what's the other option because i'm definitely not doing that what do they say in that situation oh he's like we can definitely explore like the sunrise like the sun outside and eating healthy but meditation exercise that just the general jargon really and then i just had excuses and i was like i i'm a stay-at-home dad like my husband works what's gonna happen i don't have family here i don't have friends like i don't know what you want i can't get to the local mother's group so like you're giving me these options that don't make sense for me and what he said which i will

always remember is we need to get sean back and if can use medicine, even if it's just for three months, a really short period of time to get your clear head, all of the things we're going to tell you to do, exercise, eating healthy, connecting with friends, maybe getting a job, you're going to be able to hear more clearly and then make sound decisions. And they used some power moves against me. They were like, it's not about, this isn't just about you. This is for your kids. As soon as you hear that, your tiger dad comes out and They were like, it's not about, this isn't just about you. This is for your kids. As

soon as you hear that, you're like tiger dad comes out and you're like, I guess I'll do whatever it takes. Yeah. I happened to be going home to America for the first time to see my family. And he said, why don't you go home and just be with your mom and dad and go on this medicine with them? And something about that, I was like, that sounds great. I'll give my kids to the people I trust most in the world, and I will go through the process of transitioning on to medicine, which is it rewires your brain, and it's not enjoyable for a couple of days. And then I just went on it and didn't look back.

It totally worked out. It definitely makes those things, all those other suggestions, more doable. And like, yeah, the clarity for sure is something that's like because you you do you you sort of go i don't i'm not that guy needs to be medicated and for so long i hit it too but it's like and then it's like well what you should do is you should exercise every 15 minutes or meditate every day and you're like, when is that going to fit in with the other shit I have to do? You know, I'm going to change nappies and all that sort of shit. Yeah.

So what advice would you give to any other parents out there, moms or dads, who are in a position where they're thinking about escaping? What advice would you give to them? My advice in general, which happens to be a nice Venn diagram, overlap with people who are struggling, is we have a story in our head of the parents that we think we need to be or want to be. And it's usually based off of our parenting role models or sometimes our friends and the world that our parents lived in, it no longer exists. And so what we're doing is we're trying to live a traditional life in a modern world.

And sometimes those things don't marry up. And we get caught in being a certain parent. And I think it gets in the way of us actually building a life with our partner. Or if we're doing it by ourselves, it just works for you. I was so anti going to work because I wanted to be a stay-at-home parent. I thought that meant something. I'm going to do it like my mom did. I thought mother's group didn't work out. You're not welcome in. That's the end of that chapter. And the reality was when I got clear, probably two weeks after

the medicine, I started to realize like, okay, you can't be a stay-at-home dad because you're living in a country with no friends or family. You need to make connections. So like the exercise of walking around your park with a pram is not good enough. Find a group class. So I signed up in the yoga studio, got tennis lessons. And then I thought, you know what? This isn't working. You got to find a part-time job. Just find people your age, like connect. I got an advertising job part-time. And then all of a sudden I had connections, which meant I had someone to complain to, which meant I had someone to complain to, which meant I had someone to vent to.

That's a big difference when you have someone you can whinge at. Just whinge, go to work and bitch or forget about kids for a minute. Because I was at that age,

you know, I was 29 where I could slip into work at an advertising agency and not be a parent for a little bit. People would forget. They wouldn't know.

Be a cool young 29-year-old. Me? Two children? No, I'm just the fun gay kid. And then all of a sudden it's like, I was able to go off the medicine because I had all these resources of connection and work and meaning outside of parenting, which I think every parent who survived a couple of years knows. You got to have meaning outside of your parenting role. You got to feel like you can give yourself self-care as much as possible. And when that happened, I haven't like parenting has been great ever since then. I think there may be a lot of partners listening to this, who their partner is dealing with a

similar issue with their mental health. It might be helpful for them to know what Josh did for you in those moments. I mean, the rude reality is Josh was struggling on his own. And I think that's what's tricky, even about both of your stories, is on top of you struggling, your partner is. And so sometimes you're just trying to keep your head above the water. And when you go back and you talk to Josh about those moments, he was like, it was really tricky because I had my own issues

and all I wanted to do was ensure that you felt supported. The best things that I think he did was took almost everything off my plate whenever he could. So when you're there, you're present, you're off your phone, you're asking what's on your partner's list and you're saying, what can I take off of it? I give Josh a lot of credit because one of the ways we structure our parenting partnership, it was built in those early days where he would say, what's one thing you don't like doing this week that I can take from you? And you take one thing I don't like off my plate.

Wow. And he did that even when I was depressed. What were the things that you didn't like? I do not like going to the playground. I think it is absolutely ridiculous that we take them there to play and then we have to play the whole time. It could not be more annoying. You want me to push you on a swing? The repetitive ass motion of that? I hate it. I actually like the swing because then I can't stand it. You want me to push you on a swing, the repetitive ass motion of that?

I hate it. I actually like the swing because then I can be on my phone. I don't like laundry. I find it really annoying. Like if it were up to me, they're going to ruin that shit in like 30 minutes. So just chuck it out of there.

Like don't fold it. Those are probably the two things that I was like, just take it off my plate, please. I want nothing to do with the laundry ever again. And then I guess the other thing is like, your partner is going to say no. They're not going to want the help. They're going to give you excuses for why things are good. It is completely acceptable to not ask, but to tell. Josh did that a lot. So we're going on a date night on Tuesday. I know you don't want to leave them. This is important for us. You're going to a hotel for 24 hours on your own. I

booked it. It's done. I've got everything else sorted. I know you say that you're fine. I'd really love for you to go for a walk and listen to a podcast. My mom's coming. It's like, don't, if you think there's a real issue and they don't, they're not receptive to help, you're allowed to, as the love of their life, to go, guess what?

You don't get a choice. Go to bed, take a shower. I'm making dinner. It's done. And I think the best way to do it, unfortunately, when they're really in a hole is to spring it on them.

Like my mom is coming in five minutes and you and I are going on a date. No ifs or buts. Yeah. Aaron, you and I are just going for a walk. Makes a really, really big impact. Sure. And if you're,

like think of what your partner did in the times when things were good. So like he brought my sister and surprised me because he knows that her and I are really close. And so she just showed up at my front door. Or, okay, Sean needs to find a yoga studio. I'm going to find it for him. He needs tennis. Okay, I'm just going to get him door or okay. Sean needs to find a yoga studio. I'm going to find it for him.

He wants, he needs 10. Okay. I'm just going to get him the tennis racket. Like it's your job. You've signed on hopefully until death do us part forever, whatever you actually do know the intricacies of what makes them happy. They can't see it. Yeah. It's not clear for them. And so if that, I just think, wouldn't you want the same thing? Of course we're going to say now we're in a hole. Life is shit. So you need a little bit of help. How old are your kids now?

Six. Six years old. So you've got a little bit more experience than Matt and I. What do you think, looking back, is the biggest shit show moment with your kids? Oh, wow. So many. I was going to say I could write a book about it, but I did. You did?

Let's write another book. I'm sure every year I reckon you could sit down and write a book about the shit show moment. I think every six years you get a next chapter, right? I mean, literally the biggest shit show. Josh and I travel a lot because my family's in America. He travels for work. And before we had kids, we sat down and I was like, what's really important to you after kids? And he was like, I don't want to lose the wanderlust. He loves to travel.

It's fundamental to who he is. So how do you have kids and do that? And so we were traveling. My kids are six and they've been on more than 100 flights easy. Probably 115 or 120. My son would be like, oh my God, all those planes. My kids love it. It's just important to Josh. And so we go on a those planes. My kids love it. It's just important to Josh.

And so we go on a lot of trips. But I was the one having to deal with the jet lag on the way back. He just gets to go to work and deal with it with adults and just be an asshole or whatever. But I have to deal with kids. And so I was like, I don't want to go to America anymore. I'm sorry. He's like, I promised your mom we'd get back twice a year.

We got to figure out a solution. And they were like well Josh starts talking to all his friends and people go what about giving them Phenergan

or like Benadryl or whatever it's fine like people have been doing it forever and ever and ever and I was like okay well you're

older than me I trust you I think a grandmother his best mate's mom who's a doctor and a grandmother was like we did it with, who's a doctor and a grandmother, was like, we did it with all of our kids their whole lives. They also gave them rum and stuff.

Literally. Literally. So we get on the plane. We test it before we go. Oh, you did the test? The little minor test. I thought you were going to say we didn't test. No, we tested.

And they were both fine. We get on the plane, give it to my son. He just passes out with Josh. And they just sleep for the whole fucking flight. And I'm with my daughter. He just passes out with Josh and they just sleep for like, you know, the whole fucking flight. And I'm with my daughter and she starts playing and keeps playing and then starts to get agitated.

Like, I mean, I don't know what it's like to do coke, but I've heard. Do they have the reverse effect? They have the reverse effect. She lost it.

Holy. And not just lost it, like agitated, but, and screaming and crying, but like the look of someone who's just taken acid and knows they can't get it out and there's no way to stop it like her eyeballs got massive she would have been having the best time

she was loving it and we're on a plane and not only are we on a plane we're la to sydney so we just did that lot yeah that was a nice 14 hour trip she lost it i mean and i just think back to that moment there's like the funny story which is like her you know throwing herself against the edge and then the women the flight attendants being like what are you okay like what's happening here where's your wife like can someone come and help the situation so that's shit show and then there's the scary bit which is're like, what have I just done to my kid? Are they ever going to come back? I just drugged my daughter for sure.

So that's probably one of the biggest shit shows. Double checking the medication. Did I give her the right one? It was my pill. Damn it. Did she sleep at all? She did. Actually, when she threw herself against the bathroom door, and then she just was like, me. Actually, when she threw herself against the bathroom door and then she just was like,

me tired and then just passed out. You're like, follow my finger. Never again. So don't try good kids. How do you navigate the conversations with your kids? Because now they are a bit older, they kind of understand. At what age do you say you have two dads?

Yeah. We decided really early on that the best, and we stole this from kids who were adopted because I think that's probably the story we heard growing up was the kid who's adopted who finds out when he's 18 or she finds out when she's 15 or always knew but never knew who the parents were.

So many movies, so many books. It's the lifelong quest for answers. And so when you meet people who were adopted who are cool. I hope I find out soon. They drive me crazy, those people. You know, they say they just, they knew early on. They were always told.

So before they could talk, they always knew. Not just that they had two dads, but that that wasn't normal, that that wasn't common. We had the gay books, you know, like two dads or whatever. I think there's one called like, Stella has two dads but that that wasn't normal that that wasn't common we had the gay books you know like two dads or whatever i think there's one called like stella has two dads literally so we had that one but like all the other books we were constantly reinforcing like everyone else like you're going to be one of almost always but then also we gave them the layers of like this is what a surrogate is this is her name is her name. This is the biological mother.

Here's what that means. So it felt very weird to be telling an 18-month-old that and a two-year-old. But the reality is they start to ask the weird, uncomfortable questions. And by the time they're six, they understand so fully exactly who they are. And they've worked through the discomfort

in a comfortable place. What you don't want to do is have've worked through the discomfort in a comfortable place what you don't want to do is have them work through that discomfort at school an uncomfortable place with other kids that go you have two dads that's weird yeah it's like it's like that old um conversation you have when you're a kid with my dad could beat up your dad like it's like my dads could be literally both of them but also i guess the world has changed a lot. Our kids are growing up in a very different world where diversity, even just through the phones, they have more access on television

to people who look different, of different colors. When we grew up, outside of maybe one play school character every six months, you weren't seeing a bunch of people with different colored skin or a kid in a wheelchair. And so when Stella told this girl at school she said why doesn't your mom ever pick you up and stella said i have two dads the girl goes i wish i had two dads sobbing and stella's like don't worry i'm sorry and she just looked at me like people are are jealous of me. And so I think like, you know.

That's beautiful. It's beautiful. It's great. You know? It's like, but like the sobbing. I mean, she was three. Well. She was not six.

Okay. It must be so nerve wracking. You know, everyone gets a little bit of bullying when they were younger. Totally. Not me. Ash was. The bully. He bullies me. Yeah. Normally. I apologize. and not me ash was the bully he believes me yeah normally i apologize but it's it's really scary you're sending him out to the big wide world you can't wrap him in cotton wool and you're so fearful of them being an easy target is that anxiety tough to deal with i'll be honest i think

the fact that i grew up as that kid who was bullied, the clear black sheep in the town, the obvious gay kid. Everyone you've ever met who is filled to the brim with empathy and sympathy grew up a little bit strange. It's just a reality. Like when you're the kid in a wheelchair, you never grow up to be a dick. It just doesn't happen. I mean, that's not true.

There are bitchy queens for sure. For the most part. I'm sure we could find a dick in a wheelchair, surely. for me what i came to terms with really early on through the coaching i got from my parents is if it wasn't my gayness it would be my freckles if it wasn't because i had freckles it's because i was a redhead if it wasn't because i was a redhead it's because my dad got my parents got divorced they will find something but what i will not do is pretend that them having two dads is genuinely worse than their friend's parents getting divorced. I just don't believe it. I really believe that who I am is just as normal as anything else. And yes, I might not be as common as the rest of the

population, but I'm a great dad. They have a good life. They have love all around them. That shit matters so much more than what a lot of straight people have to go through. And so I just, I'm not going to carry the trauma from my childhood and put it onto these kids who didn't ask for that. And also we live in Sydney in a really cool, pretty progressive city where there's a lot of examples of difference all around them. And so instead of my parents trying to coach me, the obvious and only one, don't worry, there are other people like you somewhere, I hope. Ellen, Ellen just came out publicly. Sure, she lost her show. You know, like, I don't have to do that. I don't have to do that. There are lots of other examples. And if I needed them, you know, there are literally gay parent meetups once a month in the inner west where you can go so your children can have access.

And so if things got bad, I would feel that I could connect them with other people so they feel less alone. There's way more avenues now for you and your kids to connect. Before we go, I want to ask you one last question. Arms crossed. What do we got? Something serious. Boom, boom, boom. When you are an old man, lots of gray hairs.

Lots. And your children, Stella and Cooper, have grown up. What's the one thing you want them to remember about your home? The household that they grew up in. Oh, wow. Oh, that's good. The one thing I did not have as a child, no fault to no fault to my parents just because of the way that i was made um was i didn't feel that i could talk about the problems that i was having the greatest issue that i was having the one that easily could have been the end of me

i couldn't talk to them about it and again it's not their fault they were loving and accepting and i constantly think about how terrible about 10 years of my life was to struggle internally alone every night by yourself. And then when I became an adult to tell my parents those things and to hear them say, we had no idea. It's, oh, that it hurts to know that they had no idea.

If you're listening to this, you do not have access to the script inside your child's head. You might feel that you know them in their totality. And we do. We understand our kids and the nuances and when they're in a good mood or a bad mood. But the reality is there are things

that are going on in our kid's head that we won't have access to ever. And the only way you can fix that is creating a home where they can tell you anything. And the only way you can fix that is creating a home where they can tell you anything. And you nail home that message, not when things are bad, but when things are good. So when things are bad, people aren't capable

of stretching and reaching on to the tools and techniques that will make them feel better. But when they're good, when they're in a great place, that's when you lay the foundation. Like you understand that you can always come to me, that there is not a single thing that you could say that's gonna change my love for you. That if anything bad ever happened,

like I won't tell a single soul. Those things that we all know we should say, I'm an example of that necessarily not working. And the damage that it did is something that I'll never be able to fully unpick. And I love my parents and they're incredibly wonderful and supportive. But I know for a fact that my kids are aware of that.

And I know that if things are bad and it started to happen, you know, when they hit kindy in year one and now the friendship drama is starting, the stress of teacher dynamics, and we're starting to get those that are dropped in your lap each day. And how you respond when your kid comes with that, you know, brush them off or, oh, you'll be fine, mate. That just happens sometimes. Oh, that's just kid shit. No. That when they come to you with those problems, you are writing the script for the rest of their fucking life. Not just for you and them, but the way that they talk to partners and friends. And so I hope when they look back at that, they think those four walls, when the outside world was scary,

the inside was a real safe place. Wow. There is no doubt in my mind that that's exactly how they're going to feel you're doing. I feel like I could tell you all my deepest dark secrets. Sean, that was a beautiful fucking chat. Thanks so much, Sean. Thank you for allowing us to enter your house

and have this conversation. I was going to say thanks for having me, but you're welcome. Thanks for allowing us to enter your house and have this conversation. I was going to say thanks for having me, but you're welcome. Thanks for having us again. Just a reminder that if you have any guest suggestions, we would love to hear them because the plan is from now on, we'll be doing guest episodes every fortnight from this Monday. So send those suggestions to 2DotingDads on Instagram

or hello at 2DotingDads.com. And if you've enjoyed this episode, we would absolutely love it if you would subscribe, review, leave a few comments. Why not? And just a reminder, if you or anyone is struggling, be sure to reach out to Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue at 1300 22 4636 see ya bye two doting dads podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout

australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today. This episode was recorded on Gadigal land.