Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash - Depression & Anxiety - Breaking the stigma

Episode Date: November 12, 2023

There is a lot of stigma attached to depression and anxiety amongst aussie men, despite 1 in 5 battling these illnesses in their lifetime. In this episode, Ash talks through his mental health journey - starting from adjusting to life as a new dad, realising he had a problem, seeking professional help and maintaining his health. A huge thanks to Ash for agreeing to share his story - we hope that it helps anyone out there who is also dealing with their own mental health journey. If you're wanting to reach out for help, please speak to these fantastic organisations: Lifeline. Call: 13 11 14 Available 24/7  Suicide Call Back Service. Call: 1300 659 467 Available 24/7 Beyond Blue. Call: 1300 22 4636 Available 24/7 Ash and Matt will be joining thousands of runners at More Than A Run to help raise funds for Movember. You're able to challenge yourself in a 60km, 30km, or 10km distance that will take place on November 25. Sign up here! Also, massive thanks to Lululemon for supporting us and the pod. Follow @twodotingdads on Instagram here. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome back to Two Dating Dads. I'm Matty J. And I'm Ash. This is a podcast that is all about parenting. It's the good, the bad the bad and the relatable and as we always say if you've come here hoping to find any kind of advice unfortunately none not from maybe today i don't know we i mean we like we always say that we have to say it but deep down we know that we can't use another lawsuit hey this is a bonus episode it is yes which is very exciting we do want to say a big shout out to lululemon yep friend of the show and this month is also movember matthew one of my favorite months of the year absolutely where it's shedding a light on men's health both mental and physical and we are all for that and if you did want to gear up for movember there has never been a better collaboration

between lululemon and the charity you can buy movember specific apparel both men's and women's and five dollars from every sale will be donated you can look at our socials ash and i both wearing the movember them lululemon t-shirts and of course they're very comfortable although i have to say people may be confused not being able to identify who is Ash, who is Matt, because we both have moustaches. Yes. I may say, this might come across as arrogant, they're on par, their moustaches. You wish, mate. Ash is wearing the hat. I am wearing no hat. Yes, I am wearing the hat. So, normally this podcast is all about us just being idiots and ordinary parents.

That's it. That's it. And we only ever wanted to just be a bit of comedic relief, but this episode is going to be a little bit different. Yeah. Off the back of Movember, where we are heroing men's health, we thought it was a great opportunity where we can talk about our mental health journeys. Yes.

And I think one of the biggest surprises with you, Ash, and we've only known each other, it's not been that long. A year? November, not even 12 months. I would say it's 12 months. Round up. But hanging out with you, you seem like someone who is extraordinary. Got it together. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But when I first found out that mental health was something that you struggled with, I was quite surprised. And so- Thank you. I'm keen to know, when did you first realize that your own mental health was something that you needed help with? For me, like before having kids, I always joke about, and that's a thing as well. I hide a lot behind humor and one-line stupid jokes that i

whip out all the time you've always i'm assuming you've always been the funny guy yeah i think like my dad's very similar to me as well like real i don't know i just had to be the funny guy class clown sort of thing yeah i definitely have had to always been like that so and i always joke about that i don't remember what i was like before having kids because i legitimately don't really remember just because i mean they just take up so much of your life. So, like before, I kind of just thought I was a normal guy. Like I never really thought anything of the head noise that I would have had or anything like that. Were there any moments, this is before kids, where you thought, hang on a second, you know, this doesn't feel quite right.

Yeah. When I was a teenager, there was a couple of instances where I did think that like, I don't know, I just, you know, might have felt a little bit sad and didn't know why. And then I just sort of put it down to nothing really. And I mean, as teenagers, you sort of get on with it. You're still kind of regulating your emotions. Yeah, yeah. And it wasn't, I mean mean the mental health conversation wasn't so prominent now it's

so it's really prominent which is great so much better because yeah like i think maybe then maybe i would have i don't know maybe i would have thought something's not right if i'd have known it was such a thing but i didn't really know it was such a thing till after yeah i i don't think going through high school the last thing i'm thinking about totally i'm thinking about chicks i don't think i could say there was anyone that i knew who had depression it wasn't really a word that was yeah that you really knew that you would have known in my vocab no no one i mean that's that's part of the problem right it's the stigma yeah so before kids, I just thought I was a normal guy

and just going along my normal life. I think like as maybe closer to when I was getting married, I had a few moments where I was like maybe a little bit, maybe a little bit, yeah, a little bit sad boy. But I just, again, I just thought that was who I was. When you found yourself in those moments where you were sad or upset, was it off the back of anything that had happened? Was there a trigger for that? Or was it just waking up one day and feeling not quite right? Yeah, not that I can recall. Yeah, I felt like

sometimes if I was missing out on something, then maybe I was a little bit more down in the dumps, but I just thought it was normal. I never thought really anything of it. So then when you had oscar and the situation you found yourself in that moment with your mental health was that more severe than what you'd experienced previously yeah so like really started when having oscar is such like a big change in your life right for everyone it's obviously good you know you've made the decision to have a child and well we're very excited as you do but like it's such a big impact on your life and i always say to people that are expecting their

first kid like you can never be prepared no matter how prepared you think you are you're not you just don't know what you're going to get totally there's so many different variables but every kid is is wildly different even though i look at marley i look at lola and they are just worlds apart oh yeah and like the first you know the first six twelve months was completely different too so i think like when we had oscar even from the delivery suite where things didn't really go to plan it was sort of uh he was such a grumpy grouchy baby if anyone who doesn't know we've spoken about before but it was a c-section it was a ended up being an emergency c-section after like 24 hours of

labor i think like now i look back where actually some of the mental stuff sort of to shine through was even in the even in the recovery suites when we're you know a couple of days in the hospital and me trying to change oscar's nappy and not being happy with my performance like i was like holy shit like that's where like the unrelenting standards like i expected myself to be able to calm that baby and be able to you know change that baby like immediately even i was like hang on a minute it's like my first fucking day on the job but i didn't think anything of it then i just would get frustrated so frustrated like immediately and then yeah we sort of you know we packed up went home did that 40k an hour home because you're like this thing in the back of the car as every dad would do where you're just like

so fragile am i strapped in the car correctly all that sort of stuff and then we got home and yeah he was quite a cranky baby he was really uncomfortable we sort of let a little bit later found out that he had silent reflux and he had dairy intolerance which is so tough yeah so if and for anyone who don't really know he would be like asleep for 40 minutes the first sleep window and then obviously he would be burning in his esophagus and like we didn't know any of that and like you know like like i said why isn't he loving me why doesn't he love me but like he wouldn't sleep and then it was caused me and april blaming each other for for why he can't sleep and all that sort of shit and like you know as two people

in the household or three people in the household now just tired all the time it was really taking a toll on april who's got a feed we're not knowing what's wrong and then i go back to work and i think how long did you have off uh initially i had two weeks off oh that was it that was it yeah yeah yeah and then i was did you have mat leave for yourself is that no i had i can't quite recall yeah that's quick it was only two weeks and then i went back to work for two weeks and during those two weeks it was really really tough coming home to see my shell of a wife that i had because this kid had absolutely taken it out all day and it was like really taking its toll on april and after two weeks i've said to my work i'm gonna have to take more time off to try and help support and again we still didn't know that oscar

had silent reflux and a dairy intolerance you have little brief moments because lola was similar where she was just didn't sleep didn't eat and you have little moments where you're like oh this is nice she just gave me a smile and this is yeah i guess that little like spark that i was looking for when i was thinking about becoming a new parent but then the bulk of it is just screams screams yeah i i recall taking a photo of me and oscar when he was so young and i think i captioned it in between screams people were like holy shit that hit me hard because they're like that's so true yeah those moments in between you got to try and find but we weren't finding any and like it was so early days that like yeah i've said and thankfully the

job i had at the time they were like yeah take as much time as you need, which is really great. They sort of understood that. Was it a case of, I guess there is this expectation of like all throughout pregnancy, everyone's just like, this is going to be the most amazing moment of your life. They build it up. Yeah, totally. Like the bar of expectation is so incredibly high. And then when it doesn't match that all of a sudden you're like well i'm failing as a family that's kind of what i felt like yeah

and it also felt like people were always like asking me oh how's the sleep just shut the fuck up and stop asking me that fucking question because it's obviously not good look at the bags on my eyes yeah i'm off work again. Oscar was just absolutely draining us to the point where like I resented him, which sucks for him. And that's as hard as it is for people to hear that. I fucking hated him. Look, we built a bridge, thankfully. I guess it's like for anyone listening who maybe doesn't have kids,

it is a really interesting situation to be in where like at its core obviously love your child yeah you know it's almost like a love that will never be broken but at the same time it's this juxtaposition where this child that you love like unconditionally is also the cause of so many problems so many problems and it's really really strange and nothing eats you up more than those moments of frustration that are directed towards your baby oh yeah because then you feel guilty about it afterwards because it's like they don't know anyway so like it was just getting really really really bad to the point where it was really affecting apr April's mental health. She was, you know, leaving the house and not coming back. And we were having to seek help because she was depressed. She hated everything. She was

obviously suffering from depression. So, my first initial thought there is to make sure she has help. And we did that. We did what we needed to do, went to the GP, and the GP said it was really, really bad, and recommending us this place called St John of God, which was out at Burwood, which, you know, April's in denial about that, doesn't want to do it. They have a really great mother and child program out there, and it was like, do we need to do that? Is it that bad?

And we tried to help ourselves before we had to get to that point. I remember there was this one day, I went for a physio appointment, like a postpartum physio appointment, and she just didn't come back. And I was like, what the fuck's going on here? She didn't come back. And then eventually she did. And she said, I just drove around the block not wanting to come in because I just hated the situation.

Wow. Which was real tough. And at that point I've made the call that we've got to go. Yeah. When we rang and said, you know, we're coming in, they said, okay, cool, no worries. We went in, we checked in like two days later to this mental hospital. They were really great and it was a beautiful facility and stuff,

but essentially I had to drop my wife and kid off there, left them for eight weeks, which I was allowed to visit, I was allowed to stay, they were really good. It good it was really tough like i said like they had great facilities and they've got this really good mother and child program which the child goes in with you when you first get there they they obviously know that you're fucking exhausted essentially the baby sleeps in the nursery i can't remember how old he was at this point like five or six weeks he might have been a little bit older but they do all this group stuff and they you know they see psychologists and try and they give them the tools to really work with it which is really really great and got to

see that so at this point how was your mental health because april had been diagnosed and she was seeking help at At this point- I had completely put myself to the side. I was like, it is not about me. It is about them. It was great for me to get some rest as well, to sort of start to see things in a bit more light. But yeah, I was going back and forth for that whole time.

Yeah, we sort of got closer to the end of that time. I remember I had a conversation with my sister and she was like, it's all you know great that she's getting better she was just like what about you and i was like i'd never really and like we spoke about the other day i was like you know it's kind of like when you're in an airplane and the oxygen mask dropped down you got to put yourself on before you start to help others and she was like do you not ever think about that yeah and i was kind of like shit and it sort of planted a seed for me i remember there was like a couple of weeks to go and they were like look we're gonna allow april to have like a home visit kind of come home for the night oscar to come home to just for the night and see how it goes it went pretty well like it was a little bit

rocky because obviously you know when it's like even now when your kids sleep in a different environment it's it's never great right so you, but it was really good to have them home and eventually they discharged her and came home and we were in a much better place. Best thing we ever did. Like now I look back, the best thing we ever did was take up on that program and thankfully we were covered under insurances and stuff like that, which I know that some people don't have

that same thing. And look, there should be more of it and more accessible for families. But yeah, like they came home and, you know, we sort of were better equipped and had more knowledge. And like it wasn't perfect. We were still going through the, now April, we have to look at, okay, she can't eat dairy. Oh, yeah, of course.

Because then the milk that she's producing. Yeah. Oh, yeah, of course, because then the milk that she's producing. Yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, so then we had to manage the silent reflux and stuff. So there were still challenges, but it was, you know, chalk and cheese, so much better because we're, you know, well and more equipped. More aware of the issues ahead. Yeah, and April was on the mend really well.

Like she was, you know, starting to be more positive and starting to find – she definitely said that she started to love him much more and have those moments and i wasn't having them yet which you know i accepted because they were you know they were living together in a facility yeah oh dude it's it's so hard even though deep down you love your child to express that love when you're completely overrun with that frustration the relationship with marley it was very instant she was a dream child yeah she slept anywhere she ate she fed beautifully yeah fucking life was easy and then with lola that affection was kind of like masked yeah it was masked by the frustration of why aren't you like that one. Yeah, yeah, totally.

Like I was happy that everyone was home and happy that, you know, we're on the mend. And I think like it wasn't obvious to me, but it was obvious to April that I was getting worse. She just said to me that you're different. She said something about you is different. She said you're frustrated, you're angry. I can see it. i can see it in your

eyes that you're just not something's not right and for me and like deep down for me i was essentially without me knowing planning my escape from the situation still even what do you mean by that i just didn't want to be there anymore i just there was conversations that i had had with april saying that i don't love this kid and it was like that's to say it now it's heartbreaking but it was like that was the situation that i didn't want to be there anymore didn't mean self-harm it just mean i just wanted to move on from this and when they were in a position my honest thoughts at the time were once they're in a position where they're comfortable, I'm going to leave,

which now it fucking breaks my heart to say that. But that was the God honest truth. And I remember April saying to me, you know, we're getting better, you're getting worse. And she kept saying that to me. She said, you need to sort this out. At that point, did you agree with her? Were you thinking maybe i could

have something wrong with my mental health yeah when she was blunt to me and said that you know we need to have a look at this because you helped us we need to help you and like thankfully we had built like a bit of a rapport with our gp over all of everything that happened with april and as soon as i booked that appointment and sat in her office she knew straight away and it was just a fucking mess and she was just like holy shit wow she was just like you guys have forgotten you guys get forgotten so much because it is all about mom and the baby as it should be because she's providing life she's nurturing she's you know feeding she's like i always say that that first big moment you know distance as they're a newborn

is that you could be any old blob but you won't be mom you know what i mean like but it's also a teamwork yeah between mom and dad and obviously there is a big difference between she's the team captain totally but yeah i remember when i yeah like i said i saw the gp and she was just like you know did we did all the testing to like how i'm actually feeling and she was like we need to sort this out and so what's the steps from that moment for the steps from that moment is you come up with a mental health plan with your gp which is really important just to sit down and talk about you know what the plan is what resources are available and how you want to tackle it and what you're comfortable with as well which you know she was saying to me I get a lot more women

than men and she was very honest about that and she was like but she said I would love to see more men because so many couples sit sitting here and I can see it that maybe, I don't know, something's not right. And she was like, you're at a point where you've made the decision to be here, which is the best decision you've made. And it was. And we went from there in terms of referrals to who would benefit me the most in the area.

Is there some resources online? How far was I willing to go to make myself feel better made it really easy so you know i made the decision at that point to see someone professionally and april was like whatever it costs whatever it is that uh therapist yeah so whatever it costs whatever it takes so that we can get you back on track and it was fucking scary dude it was nerve-wracking and then also there was that feeling is like what the heck is wrong with me so i had that initial gp appointment and then it was leading into covid it was becoming really hard to see someone do you remember what it was like going to your very first

therapy session yeah look i didn't know what to expect to start off with i was like i don't know what's going to happen but it was actually real low-key and was like got an opportunity to sort of just like sit with someone who didn't know me but knew the right questions to ask and had the tools they could provide me the tools to try and help but i remember in the leading up to that first appointment i was still thankful i had that initial consultation with my gp but then i was like in waiting to see someone and i remember we went for this family walk to the shopping center at the end of the street was and this was like a real like

one of those moments it's like i need to really fucking help myself here. I remember we went into Coles to do some light shopping. Oscars kicked off in the pram. But then as Oscars kicked off in the pram, this young group of kids came in. They were like a Japanese soccer team on tour and they were just kids. They were like eight, nine, ten, but they were crazy.

No one was in control of these kids and i was like i need to get the fuck away from these kids because my anxiety was through the fucking roof and i was like oh we'll just go down the other end no worries we need to get a couple of things went down the other end and i remember i came around the corner to go to the deli i remember this and they came around the corner as well and i was like trying to get away and as i went to get away these two girls for charity stopped me to ask me for money and just like all overwhelming had a full panic attack anyway april ended up finding me hunched over you know the nut mix things and i was literally heavily brit i'd like blacked out like a full panic attack

that had never happened to me before and april was like come on let's like blacked out like a full panic attack that had never happened to me before and april was like come on let's get the fuck out of here and at that moment i was like oh my god like what is happening to me like i was falling to pieces wow those these two girls are like so you won't donate yeah that's what it was like april was just like whoa whoa whoa like this is and having that conversation with my therapist about that moment she was just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like this is – and having that conversation with my therapist about that moment, she was just like, you've just hit this peak anxiety. And she's like, to have an anxiety attack in public, a lot of people have them, but she was like, that's like –

More so at home or – No, no, she said a lot of people have them, but like to recall it, recount the whole thing, and then you were like blacked out over, you know, and then sort of came to down a random aisle like it's wild but yeah it was definitely a big shining moment for me that i was like something's not not right yeah and we're you know that was how many years ago now what year are we and that was like four years ago and at this point you've spoken about the fact

that you've got this really great mother's group the dads in that group you guys still hang out now you guys were in bali recently together were you still spending time together or had you guys found that mother's group we had found it but it was it was very early days because we had found it and then april wasn't there for eight weeks and look they know they know now what was going on and only a select few people knew now what was going on I had three months off work I remember what about then your close group of mates yeah there was a couple that knew what was happening could they in the lead up to that moment obviously April she knows that something's not quite right. Were any of your mates saying, ah, something's a bit off? No, I hit it a lot.

I think it came as a shock. I remember a friend of mine drove past me at the front of the therapy place and I was coming out. That's right. And he rang me and he was like, is everything okay? And I was like, oh, like, yeah, I just have started seeing someone. And I was seeing someone like once a fortnight. And he was like, shit, like he definitely opened his heart,

his arms to me to be like, if you need anything, let us know. And, you know, I slowly told more and more people that things weren't okay. But I was telling people that things weren't okay so that they kind of knew that it was okay if things weren't okay with them too. I remember one of my friends at the time, he's still a really good friend, when I told him and then he got really inquisitive about the whole thing and he was like he was going through a bit of a breakup at the time. He was just like not feeling himself and I was like, go and do it, mate.

It's honestly like so relieving. I remember I saw him a few weeks later. He said, I did it. And I was like, oh, how did you go? And he was like, well, I booked it. And later he said i did it and i was like oh how'd you go and he was like well i booked it and then he said i was going off to work and he was like i just felt rushed and i felt unprepared and i was like oh yeah he goes i got there and then he said it just all came out of me and he was like he goes i felt fucking great wow he goes i couldn't believe how much emotion i had like pent up and just stockpiling.

And like he only ever saw the therapist once and he was like, it did wonders because he was like, there's so many things that I didn't think I could talk to anyone about, but once I've spoken to them about it, I felt like I can talk to other people about it. And I'm a very strong believer that everyone should at least go once in their life do you think if any of your mates had reached out this is before you'd gone to the therapist for the first time and if they had said ash something's not quite right can we talk about it do you think

looking back you would have opened up or do you think you still would have masked it i think i would have opened up somewhat, but it took me to go to therapy to really understand some of my behaviors and some of my thought processes. And that's the biggest thing. You really find out a lot about yourself. I remember I sitting with my therapist and talking, you know, I've got a different therapist now just because I sort of evolved a little bit. But the initial therapist that we were

talking about some behaviors and it was crazy that some of the behaviors that are common in you know the anxiety and depression and unrelenting standards some of the behaviors that i was doing that i didn't even recognize like what for example off the top of my head like you know really incorporating like the unrelenting standards thing into, you know, who and why I was getting so frustrated, who at and why. And it wasn't the situation. It was me that I was getting so frustrated with. So like I told this story about how I flew Oscar up to see my parents

at their place for the very first time. I was so organized to a T that when something went wrong, I was so fucking angry. But I didn't really realize who I was angry at. I was angry at me. So like, for example, I'd organized everything and then we got to the airport to get to the rental car and realized the rental car place wasn't actually in the airport.

We had to get a shuttle. Set me off. I was like a wrecking ball mate wow and it was like just those little behaviors that it's like hang on a minute like that's not that big of a deal but it was like you know recognizing that i wasn't getting angry i was you know who i was angry at or why i was getting angry or why i was feeling the way i was feeling or just like the behaviors of doing things to escape the reality that you're in instead of doing things for the joy of it or doing things for other you know decent and positive reasons but yeah like straight away

learned so much about myself I remember I had oh that's right I had like a meltdown at a bus stop once because I had misplaced my wallet, which is not a big fucking deal really. In the scheme of things. In the scheme of things. But I was so angry with myself. I smashed my phone up, fucking smashed a bus shelter up, got on a bus and was like just told the driver, like, I don't have any money, don't have anything.

I'm fucking getting on this bus. And then I remember getting home and being like, whoa. Like just like a fit of my own right. But I was just angry with me and it was so, you know, and then I was like sort of feeling that I didn't want to be around anymore. And I was seeing a therapist. It was getting better. Things were getting better, which was great.

But then I always had those moments where I was like, I don't want to be around anymore. And it evolved. I stopped seeing a therapist after a while. And at this point, you'd already been diagnosed with depression and- Anxiety and some unrelenting standards, yeah. And so were you medicated? Yeah.

So on top of therapy, I was medicated, which I am still medicated. My dosage isn't quite as high as it used to be, but medicated daily, which a lot of people are, to sort of keep my social anxiety and my depression sort of – it sort of levels you out, I think, and I really felt the difference. I'm going to be really naive here, but is it a case of once you take that first pill from that moment on you notice a difference no nah so you've got to like you definitely ease into it i remember i eased into it at a certain dosage and it was like

is it doing anything no not really and then they sort of up it but then there's you know they don't just be like yeah let's just up it you know you've got to have the process yeah there's a process and then coming off it as well there's like you know i've tried to come off it before it just didn't work it's just really bad like anxiety and after i felt like i was getting better and things were getting so much better at home like oscar was sort of turned a corner and was loving and COVID did us a real big solid because it gave me the opportunity to be at home a lot with him and I rebuilt that bond, which was great. And like I missed that lockdown because I got to rebuild

that bond with Oscar. Now he's talking back to me. It's just frustrating. But no, obviously it's got its own challenges as he is now. But at that point back then when he, you know, he was just like sliding along the ground and really, really cute and like doing those things for the first time. And they start to, I always found that their relationship with Lola,

it improved drastically when she could just give me a little bit back yeah it does yeah totally obviously i'm not talking about like they can't even at this point can't even talk but when they smile when they sit when they when you walk in the room and they recognize your face and give you a smile or they wake up in the morning you go into the room and you just get that little reaction you know i feel like i'm quite needy when i say that as a parent but those little things keep you going for sure for sure yeah and it keep going especially even through like you'll have be having a real shit time with some sleep regression or something and then they'll do something really cute and you're like okay kind of makes up for it but uh yeah like during covid like really helped me build that bond back

with oscar but i was still was adamant that I didn't want any more kids I was like nah we know that running is such a powerful vehicle to creating positive impact and at the end of this month is more than a run powered by Lululemon for the third year in a row it's a community run that happens on the 25th of November. It's in support of Movember this year. And since they started, it was about two years ago, they have raised over $1.48 million, which is a huge effort. And they've had over 4,000 runners across Australia and New Zealand. Ash, no surprise here, but we will be partaking in the event.

There's an option in Sydney. There's one in Centennial Park or one in Manly. We will do the Manly one because it's closer to you. A bit of local knowledge down there. So the options, Matt, are 10, 30, and 60 kilometers. Let's stick to what we know. This 60 is very tempting, isn't it? It is.

However, we'll do the 10 down in Manly, as mentioned. But if you want to get involved, you can do so online, which we will leave in the notes of this episode, the link. Sign up for the run this year and join me and Matt. Struggle through even just 10 because we'll probably be sick. We'll be running it decked out in Lululemon and also with our moustaches on full display. Absolutely.

Once again, people being confused between who is Matt and who is Ash, you will run with a hat on, I'm sure. I will i will yes and we look forward to seeing you guys down there all for a really really really good cause can i ask just with your medication when your therapist said we're going to medicate you it's actually my gp i really offered it up and what was your knee-jerk reaction to that my knee-jerk reaction is i don't want to be some medicated freak and that's just honesty in my head which is so wrong and so incorrect i don't know where that comes from because i would be the same i think it's just stigma mate you're just like you don't want to be seen as a fruit loop like let's be completely honest like you want to be seen like you've got it together yeah and i was so embarrassed that I didn't want people to know that I was medicated.

But then it sort of got to a point in, you know, situation where I was like, fuck it. What does it matter? No one. I get a lot of the same, like, response. It's like, oh, really? And that's about it. Yeah. That was it.

But like, I do recall being offered it and being like, nah, I can do this on my own. It's such a fucking man thing to think. I can do this on my own. It's such a fucking man thing to think. I can blow it doing this on my own. No, you can't, mate. You can't, mate. Give yourself an uppercut, chuck something in your mouth and get on with it. But like it was kind of like, I don't need that shit. I don't sound like my grandfather.

The GPs must hear that all the time they must be like yeah like breaking down that barrier must be real it must be a real like breath of fresh air when someone like me comes in and it's just completely honest and like both both the therapists that i've had have always said to me like you're very very very open and honest about your situation you know and that's helped me a lot so was it the case of from this moment on you're medicated you're seeing a therapist everything is great ash is fixed you trick yourself a lot i find that i'm really good at noticing when i've tricked myself which seems to be a lot what do you mean by tricked yourself myself that i'm okay when i'm not so you know what i mean like i think ever since seeing a therapist i was like okay well i'm

getting better i'm getting better i must be better it must be better now i did stop seeing a therapist for a while there and started to like come off my medication and yeah i don't know i just felt like it creeps back it creeps back like the head noise creeps back in where i think for me the biggest thing was like my inner fight or flight would be flight let's get the fuck out of here yeah which sucks because i love my family very much but it was something else telling me that you need to get yourself out of this situation you don't you don't need to be here like but always i would be like i could never do that i could never let my family down like that and april was always really good at pointing it out like mate you know and there's been times

where like i've woken april up in the middle of the night where i've woken up with anxiety and been like or even situations where i've woken up saying that I don't want to be here anymore, which is, you know, she's been real strong about that. And also she's had times where she said to me, like, I'm sick of you telling me you don't want to be here anymore sometimes. And it's not me. It's not me. And it is really hard to maintain. And that's the thing, like people think the hard part is, I hate to break it to people, it think the hard part is i hate to break it to people it's the hard part is not going to to face your demons it's maintaining them and some people some people don't just struggle even more with that because the maintenance part is so hard like seeing my therapist i saw my therapist the other day and she was like she just straight up to me

said you've lost focus because you could just tell she's you've lost focus while you want to be better for your family you've lost focus why you want to be better for yourself you need to find the focus again otherwise if it gets too far away you'll slip into denial then you'll start to deny that you've got a problem which you do that all the fucking time anyway but it becomes more prominent and more front focus that you don't have a problem and then all of a sudden you slip into serious depression and anxiety and we all know what can happen there where people take their own lives which is absolutely tragic but when you suffer with it and you you suffer in silence it must be way worse there's been you

know times where april was like i don't know what's going to happen. Like I'm afraid to leave you alone. Look, it hasn't been a lot of times, but it has been times. And there's been times where like I reckon I think about escape once a day in some capacity, whether it's me reflecting on it or reflecting on what I would have done and, you know, how I would have escaped. I don't mean like harm myself. I just mean like get away. Yeah.

Is that because you think the environment with the family and with your kids is such a trigger point for you having your mental health issues that by removing yourself from that, it'll make things better? Is that why you want to escape? Yeah, I kind of thought like if i remove myself i'd be better like it's not really the case is that you know you can't it's such a shit way to think about like you could run away from your problems and people do oh for sure and look i would regret that and my you know my therapist and i talk about that a lot talk about that like if i'd have done that I would have made it would be the worst thing I could have done I would have been separated from my on exile island from my children you know what I mean which there's

challenges now but like they're nowhere near as challenging as it was I was adamant that I didn't want to have a second child but now like I can't imagine my life without a second child yeah well i i guess because having oscar like that was you know it was a line in the sand where post childbirth that's when these problems started to really rear its head were you thinking gosh if i have a second child i'm gonna do it again yeah i think yeah it was like I hated so much of what he did to April, hated it. I hated coming home to see her and she was a shell of the person that I used to know. And there were times there that I just hated everybody.

And then when it came around to like, look, we were in a much better place, we had learnt so much, we sort of had the conversation a lot of times about a second kid and i think when we decided to do it we were in a much better place it still had its dramas and then you threw covid on top of that as well which we had got covid six weeks into having macy and it was like the fucking worst you know because then you're isolated on top of that as well but i think we had the tools to manage it better and you know we were much more able to have the conversations with each other that we felt like we weren't allowed to have back then you know like april being able to pull me up

and say you need to go you need to even just go and do something for yourself right now because you're not the best version of you. So you talk about maintenance being one of the hardest things. Yeah. So what are the tools that you have in your arsenal that you rely on to make sure that maintenance is still a priority? Look, I try and make sure that I keep my appointments with my therapist regular. Even when I feel like I'm okay even when it's not

a trick you know it's like I don't know what I'm going to talk about I feel like it's still a must to go and I never regret it never regret going it's not the cheapest exercise don't get me wrong but like it's worth every cent that's one big thing where it's like always go back i think like for me i don't have like a lot of coping mechanisms that i know of like look i'm quite a heavy drinker but when i first started to become a really heavy drinker it was to escape but now i i don't drink to escape i drink you know mainly for the social and the fun aspect in that i do find myself sometimes down in the dumps about it but i can recognize it pretty quickly but like in terms of like coping the exercise has been a big one look at the moment

because i've been crooking shit it sucks and i do recall like when we're in isolation a lot running like really was amazing for my mental health that's right right. I was like, I was doing like 10 or 15 Ks a day every day because it made me feel so good. You know, I surf a lot as much as I can. And I find like the high after that, you know, it gets me through it. But- Yeah, I've always said I've never been one to meditate.

I couldn't do that really either. I tried really hard. I tried so hard. Everybody else who was doing it would look at me and go this is going to change your life and i was like i want to tap into that so hard and then it's practice right and abel and i would meditate together a bit there to try encourage us to do it i found that what worked better for me was breathing exercises like wim hof and i've gotten

slack again because sick unmotivated it's hard to breathe when you can't breathe through your nose but yeah i found that after a while like wim hof because i could concentrate on the breath better than i could concentrate on the voice you know what i mean i find i would drift off so much but it's practice and like people who are really good at meditation they'll tell you i've practiced my ass off to be here which is fair it wasn't something that i overly used as a tool i found the exercise and running and that sort of stuff was much better used to go to the gym a lot i also found friends were really good it was really good to have like friends that you could talk to about it was really really important and sometimes even helping friends as well really

helped me and that's what is also really important if someone never discount someone saying that they're not feeling okay i found that like i could be like what do you mean because i would have i might not have the answers would you ask the same questions that the therapist would no no because it's really important and i step into my office it's really important not to provide a solution but just listen yeah that was the biggest thing yeah because i guess one question that i think would be really helpful is what advice would you give to somebody else if their friend is in a similar situation where they're reaching out and they're saying i'm not okay how is it best to manage those conversations do you think knowing what you know now don't be expected to provide a solution like i said just listen sometimes and i've said it to april a few times i said i don't want you to give me a solution don't give me a fucking answer i

just want you to listen because as well intentioned as the solution might be it's not what i want from you right now so like if i've had friends that have come to me and said i'm not okay what should i do i always say cgp straight away see a professional is what you should do but if you don't want to do that you don't want to go through that mate i'll sit here for an hour while you talk and if you want me to provide any insight i will but if you don't want to do that you don't want to go through that mate i'll sit here for an hour while you talk and if you want me to provide any insight i will but if you don't want me to there's no judgment from me whatsoever i'll sit here with you for as long as it takes that's really powerful as well but like i always say go and see a gp they're not going to bite your

head off all they're going to do is provide some tools and whether you want the i need heaps of help because i feel like i'm going to off myself or i want to escape my reality or whatever it might be you can go as far as that or if it's like look i just sometimes i just need someone to talk to they can provide you someone or a helpline or some other tools there's so much stuff out there yeah like i always try and push people to see gp it's funny even um i'm really fortunate in that i don't suffer from depression but you know of we shouldn't joke sorry we shouldn't hey but that's what we do i know yes that's true yeah but there are so many times as a parent as a husband where i am really frustrated i have really bad days and my biggest

coping mechanism is going for a run yeah laura can see the change in me almost instantly as obvious as like as i'm doing tasks around the house i'm heavy-footed i'm you know getting a bit eggy the way in which i talked to laura and the kids laura can tell that that's creeping up and straight away she's like get outside yeah get a change of scenery you know whether it's a half an hour run whatever you do just to like blow those cobwebs out makes such a huge difference it does and like even if you go for a walk, man, like there's been times where I've gone, I don't want to go for a run because I don't feel like sweating my ass off. I'll just go for a walk, man.

I'll chuck something in. Like I always as well try and listen to people, people who create music and sometimes, you know, and their backstory, like someone like Post Malone or someone like Gang of Youth and they've got a backstory, something like that, I'll always try to do to give me some perspective or to make me feel like where I'm at, that other people are in the same situation. And that does help me through, even if it's just on a walk or something like that, because we all know that running can be fucking painful sometimes.

But just, you know, get out in it in it you know it's just one of many ways that you can help yourself everyone's got their own their own thing that makes them happy right own hobbies and i've noticed that even going for a skate now like just changes just changes how i'm feeling yeah and i think that's the biggest surprise is that you look at someone at face value and the last thing i ever would have imagined is that you would have this story with your mental health challenges like i would have said that you are someone that would be so far from any type of depression social anxiety because you are someone who is able to hide that quite well yeah i hide behind a few things i hide behind this mustache

a lot i would refuse to. I find it's sort of something that sits in front of my face that's sort of a bit like a shield. I wear a hat a lot because I'm very open about the hat. I feel like it helps me with my anxiety. I'll try and wear it in every situation. But, yeah, I do hide behind the humour a lot. I like to take the piss out of do hide behind the humour a lot.

I like to take the piss out of everything, even myself, a lot because I feel like it helps me through definitely. I think it doesn't matter who the individual is and their circumstances. I think mental health is something that anyone can struggle with. Anyone can struggle with it, whether it's minor or major, but I feel like it's minor or major but i feel like it's really important but also i think it's i think one of the greatest things about your story is that it's something that you are now in control of yeah totally like i said the best thing i ever

did was seek help or find my voice about it because you start to find out so much about yourself and i think it like i said everyone everyone should go and see someone whether you don't think you should or not or whether you think you're completely fine or not there's no harm in trying to find a bit more about yourself because it could help you down the track definitely ash i want to say thank you for being really vulnerable i know it sounds like a weird thing to say at the end of this but i can only appreciate how hard it would be as a topic to unpack especially because it's so far from what we normally talk about yeah look for me i'm happy to do it and i've always been very transparent and if i you know one person listening to this can find some relatability

or find some comfort or find encouragement voice then i'm happy with that so and look if you're listening in any of the topics have struck a chord with you and you think i do want to reach out obviously as ash said there is the gp but some other really amazing organizations out there are lifeline there is suicide callback service and there's also beyond blue support service as well the contact details for each of those will put into the show notes but also there's a great page on the movember website which lists out all these organizations and the contact details so please don't be shy to reach out and i will say as well that if there is anyone who you think has

immediate danger with their own life obviously call triple zero for sure but ash thanks again thank you and look if you don't want to get in touch with any of them just get in touch with me if you want i'm happy to sit and listen so dm us if you like before we go we do just want to give one last thanks to today's sponsor lululemon they are a global technical athletic apparel brand with over 44 stores across australia and new zealand creating transformational products and experiences for both men and women and they focus on building meaningful connections unlocking greater possibilities and well-being for all for more information visit lululemon.com.au or head into

one of their stores. Thanks, Lululemon. Two Doting Dads podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today. This episode was recorded on Gadigal land.