Two Hot Takes - 69: Enmeshment and Healthy Boundaries

Episode Date: June 9, 2022

Two Hot Takes host, Morgan, is joined by guest Lisa Smith aka So My Moms A Therapist and Justin! This episode features a variety of stories that explore enmeshment (about time right?!) and healthy boundaries. And be stick around till the end for a pop in from Lauren for a story that hit a little close to home and has questionable boundaries...  Lisa's Socials: https://www.tiktok.com/@somymomsatherapist?lang=en https://www.instagram.com/somymomsatherapist/?hl=en Partners: Obe Fitness: ObeFitness.com Promo code :THT Athena Club: Athenaclub.com Promo code: THT Zocdoc: Zocdoc.com/THT Manscaped: Manscaped.com Promo code: THT20 Our SubReddit to Submit Stories!!! https://reddit.app.link/twohottakes Merch: https://fanjoy.co/collections/twohottakes Get your own "What's in the Box?!" at https://www.patreon.com/TwoHotTakes Full length Video episodes available on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/TwoHotTakes

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Hi guys, welcome back to another episode of Two Hot Takes. I'm your host, Morgan. I'm Justin. And today I'm joined by someone that goes by, so my mom's a therapist, otherwise known as Dr. Lisa Smith. Amazing. I'm so excited that you can join us today. Thanks.

Okay, so I have to clarify. I'm not a doctor. I'm a licensed therapist. LMFT, right? Yes. However, I do have, I have a handful of clients who call me, doctor, and you know, legally I correct them and then they, I'm like, I think they just want me to be, so we just let it go.

Well, hey, you easily could though too. If you ever wanted to get your doctorate and something, then you know, you're right there. Yes. Very close. It's not too bad. So, like I mentioned before, I even started recording. I should have just hit record when I initially started talking.

But I found your stuff on TikTok quite some time ago. And you give the best relationship advice. I think my favorite videos you do are like the stitches where you'll find someone who is like, I'm going through this crazy breakup or having this problem and you like stitch it and give like this just calming relationship advice you typically start with, hi doll. And I love that. It's just like, you instantly know it's going to be good. It's just going to resonate.

Okay, you know, that just, that started by accident and you know, I, as I was telling you my, when I just was like, I'm going to make videos and it was just kind of for fun and it was kind of a joke and my kids were kind of, I roll like, okay, mom. And then my middle one was like, you know, if you really want people to watch a video, you should stitch it with somebody else's video. And of course I was like, what's the stitch, you know, totally out like, so they had to like show me how to do it. I didn't realize that you weren't supposed to like talk to them.

I thought if you stitch a video, you had to address like the person whose video was that's how out of, out of the TikTok world I was. So that's why, and then I guess it just came out naturally because that's what my dad called us. So it seems very suiting to be able to continue to use the word doll. So called me and my, my three sisters doll and I called my kids dolls and their friends dolls. So it just, I think it just came out very naturally.

And what I liked about it is it includes everybody. It's not, not gender specific. It's no gender. It's whatever you want it to be. Everybody can be a sweet sort of doll. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like a happy neutral, like affectionate, like warm fuzzy term.

I really like that. So you are a licensed marriage and family therapist. How long have you been practicing? Yeah. You know, so this is a second career for me. So started seeing clients in 2014, I believe. So I was a, actually in my twenties, I was a high school math teacher. Oh wow.

Yeah. So I've worked with teenagers. So have a background in mentoring teenagers since I was in my twenties, but as far as being a licensed trauma therapist. So, you know, so since 2014, but really, I think what, what I found was because of not just teaching, but as a therapist is, I mean, so much of what I would talk about with kids even as a high school teacher was dating relationships and crushes and like, they're not into me.

And like, what about this person? And then this person is still like my boyfriend. And so, I mean, I feel like I've lived in that world for, for so long, even longer than how I've been practicing. Well, it's amazing. You went through, at least from my understanding, um, on the LMF, licensed marriage family, yeah, LMFT, all the acronyms get me sometimes, um, cause I'm an OT. And so I worked with some LMFTs at a mental health facility and it was incredible.

But the trauma certification is an extra step that's not even like required to actually graduate. Right. Correct. Most of like, I would say the area I sit now is all, is the licensing I got afterwards and the information I learned afterwards. You know, I, um, one of my kids is very interested in psychology and I'm encouraging them to go more neuro psychology because I do believe like I'm always looking at how our nervous

system affects, um, why we do what we do. I actually, before, right before COVID hit, I was working on a PhD and it was specifically looking at how our nervous system and trauma responses affect romantic and dating relationships. That was my does going to be my dissertation. Oh, wow. Yeah. So you were talking about your, your clothes. I'm like, I am.

I've actually considered it was there and hope to go back. Um, but that, that is definitely where my expertise lies is understanding what's going on in our body because I think what often happens is people can come in with really good dating advice, like do these steps and we all, we can all give our friends advice. But when it's your own body, myself included in a relationship, you'll end up doing things that are so, you'll beat yourself up over because you're like, oh, that's so not like me. I, I was re, I just reacted and we know when we are calm and collector, we're looking at

somebody else's relationship. We give the best advice, right? But when it's our own body and our own emotions and our own, we're bumping out of our zone, that's, that's a whole different ball game. Yeah. That sounds like the most amazing PhD project and like, right? I, you need to go back. I did the doctorate and like my doctorate, I did, um, psychosocial needs and like mental

health in an acute care facility. And I'm just like, it was a lot, but I'm like, it's so needed to get that like research and that stuff out there. So you gotta, you gotta do it. I know the research pieces is a key piece and I just need another life. I feel like with a full-time private, private practice and a family and now the social media stuff, I feel like, oh, can I just get one more of me? I just need to handle.

Yeah. Just clone yourself a little bit. Yeah. I feel that, I feel that all the time, I'm actually in music currently, um, but I have so many aspirations. I wish I could be on movie sets on the daily. I wish I could be like a scuba diver doing some cool things in the ocean. Like I've just have so many passions.

So I feel you, I could use an extra day every week or even an extra lifetime to try so many different careers. I would love that. I feel the same. I feel absolutely the same. I, yeah. Well, when you're an empty nester and you have some free time on your hands, it'll, it'll be there waiting for you.

So the theme I have for you today is enmeshment and healthy boundaries. So kind of all about relationships and just all the dynamics that come with them. Okay. Sounds good. Okay. Let's dive in. So up first, am I the asshole for going off on my wife after she made a sex sign to keep my mom from knocking on our bedroom door?

So I've been married to my wife for four years. We have a medium sized apartment for the last two months. My mother has been staying off and on in our guest room. My dad recently passed away and it's hard for her to live in their house alone. So I've been letting her stay with us. My wife and her have never particularly gotten along, but I expected her to understand why it's important to me that she overlooked this just for a little while. I mean, she lost her husband of 40 years.

She's fragile and I really want to be able to do what I can to make her feel better. My mom's presence has changed our routine a little bit, mainly our nighttime routine. She usually will come knock on our door to talk. My wife hates this. Mostly because it interrupts our intimacy. Usually when she's over, we just don't have sex. So this past week, I noticed my mom wasn't coming in at night. So we had normal nighttime habits.

Yesterday, my mom pulled me aside and told me that the sign I let my wife put on the door at night was disgusting and not something she ever needed to know. She also said that it was very hurtful that I don't want to speak to her since I'm all she has left now. I told her I had no idea what she was talking about. She said the sign about sex. I still had no idea and talked to my wife about it when she got home. She admitted to it.

She said that she made a sign to keep my mom out of our hair at nights. On the sign was written, please do not disturb unless you want to see me fucking your son. She thought it was funny and necessary, but I was mad about it. I took the sign, crumpled it up, and tossed it in the garbage. I then went off on my wife about how inappropriate and embarrassing this was. She told me it's my fault that we needed this and it's just a joke. I slept on the couch last night and she's still mad at me. Am I the asshole?

Oh, that's a good one. I feel like I was like along for a journey there. Like I'm like, can we just make like a little mini like documentary about this? Yes, literally. Right? I had like the visual going. I had like a whole movie playing out. Oh, no, every time I'm on an episode, I go through this emotional roller coaster and

oftentimes after these, I'm just exhausted. Yeah, I could see that. Well, okay, my first, so what I'm looking at is the structure and boundaries, right? So a measurement is when we have a measurement is when we don't have healthy boundaries. There's this, and believe it or not, it's more complicated than we realize at first because if the healthy boundaries were already there, then we wouldn't have the issue to begin with. And it's not as simple as like, we'll just put up a fence, a fence being what I kind

of use as the visual for a healthy boundary because it's not that easy to do. For a lot of people, it's very well rooted. So you can already see the enmeshment between the son and the mother in that there's this bond there. And one of the things I have to work on a lot with clients is teaching them. And it's one of those things I will have to say 1,001 times, you can be caring and loving and still say no. And then it's like it does not compute, I can be caring and loving and still set a boundary.

And it's almost as if that cannot exist. So there isn't this place for him to say, you know, mom, I really love you. And at the same time, this is not okay. So there's this sense of saying, and recognizing too, the other piece going on here is that there's an overlap or an override. What do I mean by that? Because she's lost her husband, which believe it or not, I can relate to this one because my dad passed away at the beginning of this year.

My parents were married for 53 years. Oh my gosh. Yeah. The story was probably. No, no, it was actually probably just meant to be because there's times my mom comes in and sleeps in my house. So I'm like, oh, did I write this? No, I didn't write this.

No sign on the door. But part of it is like, I can honor somebody's grief. I can see they're going through a hard time. And at the same time, I can say, how do I preserve my marriage? How do I preserve my relationship that one does not override or trump the other? Just because mom is now grieving or having a hard time doesn't override my marriage. So I want to be able to honor both, almost like separate them out and honor them separately. The wife is actually on here though, to something and that is it really is his job to set the

boundary. Whoever's family it is, whoever's family of origin it is, it is up for them to set the boundary. But it makes their partner feel that they are protected. It makes their partner feel like, okay, we, whether it's husband or wife or whether it's a partnership, this is my partner I live with, that should be the strongest bond. That should be the dyad. I almost like, when I'm doing a diagram, I draw a circle around them.

Sometimes what happens in a mesh relationships is it's not, they're not in a cell together. It's like mother child in a cell or father, I mean, their child, usually mother child in a cell. And there's where that bond is. And it's really important because when he steps forward and sets boundaries with the mom, I mean, think about what message does that send his wife? I'm not prioritizing you. That's right.

That's right. And when I do step forward, like, hey, this is not okay here, let's talk about instead of coming in the evenings, let's come up with a different routine. Whatever he needs to do to step forward is sending a message to his wife of you matter to me, you're important to me, our relationship, our intimacy is really important to me and I can care for my mom and still set that boundary. And without that, because my guess, I'm not, I'm not blaming, but if he had done that, do I think there would be really, you know, the sign on the door, probably it probably

wouldn't be needed. No. And by the way, if you're the member outside the family, like she's the newbie, right? Because she came into the family, it's a different dynamic. It's not the same. And so her stepping forward and setting that boundary is never going to go over super well. It has to be the person whose family, family it is. Now, do we think we could have maybe a more tasteful sign?

You know, maybe a little, maybe a little bone, a smiley face instead of like, I'll be fucking your son. I'm thinking that probably would have gone over a little better. Yeah. But I think that that has more to do with, he's got to step forward. But again, that's not, I can say that that's not easy to do tracking back and looking at what their dynamic was growing up. Most likely I could almost predict he is, he plays that role in the family of either

being the peacemaker or the one that doesn't want to rock the boat or else he would already have set up boundaries. Yeah. Well, and I think I look at this situation and I'm like, obviously mom is going through a really tough time. And it could have been so simple as like the, the wife said, she's coming into our room. It's disrupting our intimacy. This is affecting us as a couple.

All he had to say to his mom is, mom, you know, can we set a boundary after 11? It's kind of our wind down time. It's our quiet time. I want you here. I want you to feel like you have support, but after 11, it's kind of like that's us time. Exactly. That's what, that's that I can be caring and loving and still set a boundary at the

same time. I love that. The other thing I think that would be really helpful is, is to know that there's some kind of end in sight. I mean, if she's staying multiple times a week, I think that's helpful to sit down and be like, all right, mom, we recognize you're here regularly. Let's talk realistically about what does this look like? Do we think this is going to go on indefinitely?

Do you imagine, you know, what, what does her living situation look like now? Like so that we have an idea going forward. I think it's also the unknown. It's like, you know, it's, if you, if you're running a marathon, you know when the ending is. I'm looking at this wife and she's like, I don't, I don't see, I don't see an ending in sight. Like, how long do we have this going on?

She feels trapped. Right. Exactly. So if we could sit down, kind of work on defining it, right? And sometimes we'll tiptoe. So we don't want to, because we don't want to have to lean into those hard conversations. But in actual, I think that would help a lot more with the whole thing. I agree.

So there was an overall vote on his original post of asshole. People laid into him a little bit. One of the top comments is you're the asshole. You need to set boundaries with your mother and not let her intrude on your marriage. My mother is my best friend. And when my father died after 46 years of marriage, she wouldn't dream of intruding on me like this. The sign might have been crass, but it sounds like your wife has had enough.

And then we do have an update from OP. Hmm. So we get a little more. Oh, I love it. I love that. I just want to say to that point does make a lot of sense because I have been in many different living situations throughout college and, you know, all the different random groups of people you're in with.

And I feel like when you know, okay, at the end of this school year, this is going to expire when there's the end to something, then it takes all of that pressure off. But from the wife's perspective, if you don't have that set date, that makes a lot of sense because I think in the grand scheme of a lot of the problems we encounter not only on the show, but in life and things like that, this is a relatively simple boundary to set. I mean, this is basically, hey, I'm here for you, but can we not do this at a certain time? Yeah.

It seems like a relatively simple one. Yeah. I'm curious what the update is. Yeah. Yeah. I'm interested on a T-shirt. If it's like, I don't know, your quote, like you can be caring and kind and still set boundaries. I have a handful of them as we're looking at merch.

One of them is far from my hope, but yes, yeah, you can be caring and loving and still set boundaries. I love that. That's amazing. So for the update, some people asked our ages, I'm 26 and my wife is 25. We have no kids and are waiting until we save up some money before we start trying for one. So I took a lot of the nicer comments to heart. So I took action.

First, I sat down with my mother and tried to get to the root cause of the issue. She told me that she's been doing this as she's just been so lonely and she wants to feel connected to her only flesh and blood she has left. This made me feel really sad for her. So I went to my wife to apologize and to try to negotiate something. My wife, however, told me that she doesn't want my mom living here anymore. I tried to see if she could just let her stay one more weekend, but she rejected it. Me and my wife sat her down and told her that we felt like we needed more privacy from her.

So we asked her to leave for the time being. This set my mom off. She started crying and accusing my wife of trying to, her words, quote, break us up. I felt bad, like awful. I tried just talking to her and wanted to get to the root of why she felt like she needed to be here. She said that now that I'm her only flesh and blood alive and if my wife keeps me wrapped around her finger with sex, I'll forget all about her.

So she was trying to interrupt that. She was also worried that if I get my wife pregnant, I'll be too busy with her to ever see her again and I'll be stuck with my wife when I could do so much better. This made my wife very upset and I told my mom that I think she needed to leave then. The crying turned into full blown bawling and yelling at my wife. Eventually I was able to get her out. I told her that I don't think it's best that we speak until she gets over her issues with my wife.

Now looking at this, I feel awful. I had a presence who actively wanted my wife gone and didn't want us to be intimate or have couple of time and to top it off, I argued with my wife and when she wanted to remove said presence. Like I said, I won't be contacting my mother until she apologizes and accepts it and I don't think she'll be staying over any time in the near future. Wow. Wow.

I mean, again, the movie, our movie plays out just like we, right? Yeah. But I mean, it tells you like, again, we're not blaming, we're not judging, but simply like when your guts on, your guts on and the wife's gut was on. I mean, it was like, it was on right. She picked up like, this is not just a, just a grieving mother. There is more here. And when it got flushed out, there was that sense.

There's that, that she was trying to keep her and her son in that cell together. This is something that often happens when I'm looking at families where particularly the mom, majority of the time the mom, their whole life is their family and their kids. And they don't realize that phrase like, you're my only flesh and blood. I mean, can you almost feel it? I feel like it's almost like her putting like a chain on him and like dragging him down. Like I was like, take the chain off, like take it off, like you can just feel it, you know, that sense of like, how do you fight back to that?

What's the answer? If somebody says that you're my only flesh and blood, I mean, there, there's no good answer that doesn't make you look like an asshole. Yeah. Well, it's kind of like, it sounds like he is an only child too, which has that much more added pressure on him. And it's kind of the truth, like, like, yeah, she maybe has extended family, but maybe not. So it's like, like you said, there really isn't anything you could say to that.

It's, you're kind of in a tough place. Right. Right. And I mean, this is why it's so important is as people become parents is that they realize I have to have a life outside my children, I have to have a life outside my spouse. I have to have, and I always use this portfolio, this, the visual of like a portfolio, like an artist or a musician or a model, they'll go, they go into a call with a portfolio. And that portfolio has all these different pages.

They don't walk into like a modeling gig with like one page. They have like all these different shots that show their diversity and different things. And we need to build a portfolio of our life so that it's like, I have these friends and I have a partner and I have a child or I have these hobbies or I enjoy this so that if a page gets ripped out, I have a full life left. What happens in this, her book, she doesn't have enough pages. She's got like one, maybe two. And there's that sense of he gets ripped off, ripped out, I have nothing left in my book.

And she, that's where I would encourage her. She's right in saying, she's got to build out a life outside of me so that it does, there again is that chain. It doesn't become so weighted down. God, you have the best analogies. I know that was awesome. Oh my God. Yeah.

That makes, and it makes so much sense with like the enmeshment component of it too, because that is like her kid and that relationship now is like, that is the book. Yes. Wow. Yeah. She has like one page in her book and the fear was if, if this page gets ripped out. So then she went to these extremes of like, I don't want him to have a child. I don't want him to have sex.

Like I want him like, so, cause the page got too weighted. So she's got to fill out her book. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you also hear too, I think something that I've seen a lot recently that hasn't really been talked about in past years is the fact that parents these days, like you need to not live your life for your kids. And there was kind of like this, like even my mom, my mom has used this saying where

she has said, I don't have a lot these days because I lived my life for my kids. And so now I'm across the country in Los Angeles. My brothers are grown, have, you know, partners, kids. And so she's kind of like, okay, now what do I do? And so it is kind of an interesting concept to consider if you are a parent with young kids, it's like, don't stop living your life just because you have kids. Yes. I can't tell you how much I have this, this conversation.

And there's a balance. We want parents that are involved and engaged, you know, we have on the flip side, sometimes parents are so, you know, moms may be so focused on building a career, which is wonderful and great. However, they still need you. And so there's that balance. And at the same time, making sure you have a life outside of them, probably some of the most challenging conversations I have with parents is like, well, it sounds like you're

trying to get your child onto the path you want them on, not on the path they are. And how do you join their path? And there's a sense of letting them be on their own path, which a lot of parents don't like. So it is a letting go and building a life outside of them. That's true. And I think, especially us both being from Minnesota, I think a lot of people don't leave Minnesota.

And so I think kind of the norm that's been established over generations is you're kind of always in the same circle. I mean, my whole family is like within a 20 mile radius, you know? And so. Mine's five. They're all so close. But we always have that. It's just like, oh, you're going to come back home yet?

Or, you know what I mean? So I think a lot of people, especially when they move out of their hometown, feel that pressure in that way. Yeah, very much so. Definitely. What's up, everybody? I'm Mike Wilson with Any Hour Services, and if you've been thinking about replacing your old water heater, Any Hour Services is here to help and save you some money.

Whether you're looking for a new tanked water heater, or you want to see what upgrading to a tank list would cost, the plumbers at Any Hour Services can show you what options are available. Right now, you can save $400 on a tanked water heater, or $1,200 on a tank list. Call Any Hour Services and schedule a free estimate today. Google Any Hour Services, or schedule online at AnyHourServices.com. No one helps more homeowners than Any Hour Services. So I have another enmeshment one, or at least something I look at and I'm like, okay, enmeshment.

And people that listen to my show, it's like a buzzword for me. I just love it. I'm so fascinated by enmeshment and just, because I think it's something I can even relate to, in a sense, where I might not be completely like that, but I think even as a child, we still all have kind of this desire to make sure our parents are taken care of. And there's always that, at least from my perspective, that pressure, or the guilt to make sure they're good. I don't know.

So maybe I'm a little enmeshed myself. But I did want to read this one too, because I think the common misconception with it is that, oh, it's typically moms and sons. And it can't be daughters as well. Okay. So up next, my girlfriend's mom doesn't have a husband, so she imposes on her daughter's life and our relationship need advice. Okay.

So my girlfriend and I have been dating for a while now, and she's older than me. 28, I'm 25. And we've been talking about moving in together, which would work. We respect each other's boundaries. We're both responsible. We're best friends as well. I already have my own place, but she still lives with her parent, so it'll be a good transition for her.

But she keeps suggesting that me, her, and her mom should get a place together, because her mom doesn't want to be alone because she doesn't have a partner. She has literally said if she had a man to go, then she would not have put so much on her daughter for years. Her mom is in her fifties, has no disabilities that require her to be taken care of, and she has a job to provide for herself. She simply just will not let her daughter venture out onto her own life in peace because she doesn't want to be alone.

I feel like I'm a teenager all over again, dating someone whose parent is always in their ear and will literally cry whenever she goes on vacations with me or her friends just to make her daughter feel bad because she can't keep a good man and doesn't have friends. On top of that, her mom puts all of her problems on my girlfriend and always has, so she feels the need to be the savior for her all the time. It's such a toxic relationship, and she knows it, and is tired of it herself and has expressed to her mom time and time again since her first relationship years ago, that she needs to lighten up and be more independent, but it doesn't seem to change anything.

She doesn't want to see her mom crumble, even though I don't think she will if she does push her to get out of her comfort zone. I think she'll have no choice but to progress, but I'm at a loss on what to do. Is it worth staying to see if it changes? Should I show my frustrations and hopes it'll change for things to get better? Or is this a deal breaker? Wow. Okay.

I have a client situation so similar to this right now, so similar. I'm like, oh, I got this one. I know. I think I've been living in this world the last six months, particularly that particular issue. I actually even said to my client, the daughter of the mother-daughter duo there, and I said, she said something about, yeah, I just wish my mom would find a partner, and I'm like, why would she find one when she has you and you're her husband?

And she's like, yeah. And then she just like stopped, and I have enough, by the way, it was very sweet and very gently. I didn't like it. I know my flow and dance, and it was just enough that I dropped it, and she came back for two weeks after that, and she's like, I am. I'm her husband. I'm her husband.

She doesn't need one. I'm her husband. I'm like, yeah, you're her husband. And she like started finally realizing, ah, okay, and as long as you're her husband, by the way, then you're not fully opening yourself up to your, you're taking something that belongs to your partner, and you're giving it to your mom. And that just opened up this whole new thing for her, like, oh, you're right. All this, like making sure mom's okay, being mom's support, right?

And not just, I bet mom's had a hard life, and mom's had this and that. All of that energy was also taking away from her partner as well. So that was one of our big conversations. A few things. One, do not move in under any circumstances. If you all move in, you will not move out. I mean, I've been working months to try to get them to move out because they're already moving.

They're already moved in. And I'm like, yeah. I mean, once you're in, good luck getting us, is what I'd have to say. That is so hard because what happens is then you stay in that parent-child role as far as what time are you coming home? You're out really late. All of a sudden, then these things that should be like normal adult things, I can come home at three in the morning.

I can not come home at all. And that's okay. I can come home drunk. I'm not advocating for that, but adult things, you lose some of that. It keeps you in that parent-child role as well. The thing that often gets overlooked here, too, is the daughter's getting something out of it. She's getting something out of it.

If not, it serves her. Even though she says she doesn't like it, he's like, doesn't like it clearly, she's still getting something out of it. She gets a feel good because if mom has problems or she needs to be there to care to mom, then what does she get inside? She's the hero. She is. Yeah.

Yeah. That savior complex almost where- And it's a feel good. And I need it. And I'm wanted. And I can make her life better. It has all these feel goods that's very hard to fight against. That's true.

Yeah. Especially if you've been in it for so long. I mean, she's 28 at this point. And it sounds like her mom has been single for quite some time or at least this dynamic has been happening for ages. And I can relate in a sense where my mom has female friends, but not a lot. And so I was kind of a sounding board as her only daughter. And I think that is kind of hard.

And you kind of went through something with your mom when she was going through the divorce with your dad. It's so easy to fall into that role with our parents sometimes, especially when things like divorce come up or whatever. It's not something you've ever encountered. So how do you even set a boundary for something that is so new and like, ah. Right. And as much as the child, it's new for the child.

It's also new for that parent who's now on their own, doesn't have their partner. And how much do I make my child my partner? They tend to be more open, single parents or parents who've gone through divorce, not always, but tend to be more communicating and like dealing with real life stuff. So you end up with a much deeper relationship with one or sometimes both of the parents. However, setting that boundary. So no, no, I'm still the parent. You don't need to be the parent.

You're not your job to be the parent and take care of me. And there's that like, there's that it's tough to set a boundary when you're in it. And there's no, there's no manual. We don't get manuals on how to deal with this stuff or navigate it. Yeah, I think what makes it tough kind of maybe from your teens into even your later 20s. I think there's an element of you have friends and colleagues that are all having kids and they're reaching that age and they're having kids and you're seeing how much goes into parenting. And you're just like, I mean, you see them when they're struggling with it.

You see them when they're on two hours of sleep, you see them going through this and you start to think like, because you know, I don't think you realize it when you're younger, but how much your parents do to get you to where like you're an adult. I mean, what goes in from being born to being an adult and maybe after is you start to realize how much they've done for you and how much goes into that process. So then I think that might also build up a little sense of that guilt where you're like, oh, well, they were there for me and maybe it's one of those things that you pay it forward because then you do that for your kids and their kids.

But I just think there's also maybe it's Midwest thing too, but I think there's this that aspect that you're talking about where, oh, well, you've done so much for me over my life. And here's a simple way I can repay you without taking it to these extremes, obviously. Right. Well, one thing that we don't know about this story and that it plays into a lot of these is the dynamic with, did the mom take care of her mom? What is the expectation? Because what happens is we all are born with a schema. A schema is like a table that's set and the table gets set for us that says, hey, basically, this is how we do life. And as we get older, we get to say, okay, this is the way the table's set and a lot of times

really the reason relationships or marriages hit like this is because you have two different tables that are set and it's not really talked about. It's just like, this is how we do life and their setting looks very different than your setting. And so part of it, as we get older, is to stop and to question the way that our table is set. Well, wait, is there an expectation that you took care of your mom? And so now there's this expectation she's supposed to lean in and tend to you. And this is just what we do. And that's the phrase. Well, this is just what we do. Well, how come? Who said that's what we do? And so really challenging the way the table is set to say, okay, can I be caring back to, can I be caring and loving? And it doesn't mean I'm playing the

same role. Can I move the plate around or the cups around that I get to set the table differently as far as what I think life looks like and what it means to love people around me. And that's what part of we have that invitation is we get older to challenge that. Yeah. Well, I guess too, and culture and where you are in the world plays such a big part on this too. Because, you know, for us in the Midwest and being, you know, a white family, it's not very normal for grandparents to grow up in the same house as you. I'm kind of an exception. I feel like my great grandma lived with us or we lived with her, I should say. But in like Asian families, it's, they have multi-generational households a lot of times. And so there's like this fine line of like

the cultural norms. And then is it enmeshment or are they just a close family and like close knit? And so I guess for me in looking at some of these stories, it's like, do you have guidelines where, no, they're just close knit and they're still healthy versus there's some enmeshment going on there. No, I love that you brought that up. So a little side passion that I have is I have some colleagues and we started about seven years ago in nonprofit that provides trauma trainings to organizations in through our country. So we would go in and do a lot of work in India. We do trauma training. So agencies, let's say they take girls out of sex trafficking in India, we go in and we work with the staff of those agencies. So we've been all over Nicaragua,

Africa, India. That's incredible. And you have to take, it's super fun work, by the way. Like my middle daughter, she spent her 13th birthday in Calcutta. It was, I brought her with me. That's cool. Amazing. Super fun. It's some of my favorite work. But you have to, the air a lot of people make is they don't take into consideration the culture and you have to take in, you have to understand their culture and you need to do it in a way that you're, it's a step down. I'm not coming in and educating based on my culture. I have to like take a knee, understand their culture and then assimilate into their culture, even when I'm using examples or how I'm teaching to account for, for just that.

This is a conversation we have a lot because in a lot of Asian families, Hispanic families, I'm Greek and in Greek families, it's not, it's not a measurement. That's just my opinion. And I'm allowed to give it because I know that's just, it's just assumed everybody wants to know my opinion when you're a Greek family. And you have to, yes, you take it into consideration. You have to understand like the umbrella you're under. So if it's a culture, you want to understand what umbrella you're under, that doesn't mean you justify it or you leave it and go, oh, that's just part, that's just part of the Asian culture, right? It's, but how I approach it and how I point it out is going to be very different. So you have to, you have to understand the

gosh, like, let's understand like Asian, like, so for instance, what I would do with a client and I live in a high predominantly Asian area. And so we'll say like, well, hold on, let me under. So like, what is like, so what is in Asian culture, like what, and I'll have them educate me, even though I may know some of it on it and be like, and I can kind of come in and challenge some of these ideas of a meshment, right? You can't completely combat it because that is a, I would say more of a, not an American term, but like that in some cultures that, that is to be expected. That is, that is a given. And so you have to kind of know what umbrella you're walking under and you have to tread lightly. But what you can do is point kind of challenge, you know,

again, there's that dance of winter, like challenge some of those ideas of, of healthy boundaries, but it's, it's very, it's hard. It's very tricky. Yeah. Well, and I guess for this person, like you said, like definitely don't move in like together. Yeah. Like that's bottom line. The other piece that he was asking is like, is this a lost cause? Right. And this is one of those, you have to go with what's in front of you. You can't go with the potential. So I would always shift it back to the person. And so for the partner, I don't know if he said he was male or female, but the partner of the, of the girl. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, not, they don't really specify it now. So just 25 year old person. Okay. 25 year old. So I would say to them,

we need to go back inside of you and say, does this work for me now? The way it looks in front of me right now, does this work for me? And oftentimes we don't want to ask ourselves that question, because we're afraid our answer is going to be no. And I'd say, that's okay, sweet. Like, we'll get there. But like, can I just answer yes or no? And if my answer is yes, I'm still, I'm okay with this now. Right. And then I get to say, okay, then I'll check in in like a week or I'll check in in a month and I'll still see if this works for me now. What's in front of me? Not the potential. If my answer is, if I look and say, does this work for me? And the answer is no, then I have two choices that I can go down. I can go down a path of, what do I want to say?

Or what do I want to do? See, our fear is if I say, this is not working for me, that means I only have one option, which is breakup. And I say, no, no, it's not one option. It just simply says, do I want to go back to them and say, this is not working for me. So let's come up with a plan. I need some kind of plan or timeline because if I stay in this place, I'm going to end up presenting you. And so I will communicate or I take action. So when our body hits this, this is not working for me. We need to either say something or we need to do something. If not, if not, if we just avoid this altogether, all it's going to do is just keep building and building and breeding to you resent them. And then you're going to be, it's not even just now the relationships,

you're going to end up presenting them that you've wasted three years of life, your life waiting around hoping for a change when in actuality, that's your responsibility, not theirs. It's like a point too. Cause yeah, it is, if you have a problem with it, it's definitely your responsibility to say something and make that determination for sure. That's a hard one. That is their relationship. That enmeshment there is a tough one. Yeah. Well, and I feel like a lot of, a lot of the write-ins or stories I see that talk about enmeshment, everyone's asking, what can I say to my partner to get them to realize that the situation they're in isn't healthy. It's not normal. And just like for me, I'm like,

it's kind of the same as like a friend that's in a not so healthy relationship. It's like, no matter what you say sometimes, it has to be, it has to come from them. They have to realize it themselves. Yeah. Yeah. So, and that's it. You can't want it. You can't want it more than they do. You can't want it for them. But what I can do, your best bet is to come in and say things. Cause if you just try to point it out, then you're going to come off judgey or critical, or they may agree with you and then they'll flip. They'll agree with you. And then the next time they'll like, then they'll feel like you're, you're beating up against like their mother or their partner. So your best bet is to come in when you're pointing things out and saying like,

it's hard for me to see this. It's hard for me to see that your life, that you have to be home by a certain time. It's hard for me to see that because I care about you and I love you and I just want more for you. So I'll go about it in that direction. I have a better chance of saying that than coming in critical or punitive. Yeah. Makes sense. I'm like, okay, this is good. Like just everything's clicking. Gotta walk the dogs, school drop off, meetings from 10 to three, take kids to soccer practice, then there goes the extra time for a jog. That's okay. Maybe next week. When everyone else relies on you, it's easy to put your needs last. Therapy is a dedicated time to focus on what you need to be happy. So you can show up for yourself the way you do for others.

BetterHelp offers convenient online therapy on your schedule. It's the same professional service you'd get from an in-person therapist, but with the option to communicate when and how you want by chat, phone or video call. Go to their site and fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Find more balance with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHELP.com. Okay. Moving along, more along the lines of healthy boundaries, something I feel like that comes up a lot for me and I get a lot of write-ins on is people that have partners and their partner has a really close friend of the opposite sex. Oh, I love this one. Yeah.

Am I the asshole for telling my fiance I won't proceed with our wedding if he insists on inviting his female friend. My 29 female fiance, 32 male, has a female best friend since childhood, 32 female. Now I'm not the person who gets jealous over my partner being friends with opposite gender. I'm bisexual, so wouldn't be rational of me to have some weird expectations like this. Plus my fiance has many female friends as a straight guy and I have friends of both genders as well. What bothers me here is not the gender of the friend, but whether or not they're able to respect boundaries. So I'd make the same talk if the friend in the question was a male. So to the point, his female best friend Rachel has always been in competition with me

regarding who's more important and a bigger priority to my fiance. At first my fiance failed to stand up to her and set boundaries, but after a small break we had and after we reconciled, he realized the importance of boundaries and set hard boundaries with her. I know that whenever she sees me or hears about me, she's not happy, but we act kind to each other despite our actual feelings. The situation by the way has been rolling out for the past five years that I've been with my fiance. When he proposed, Rachel didn't congratulate us at all and completely overlooked our entire engagement and kept referring to me as my fiance's girlfriend. My fiance kept correcting her each time, even telling her how she's not funny or quirky doing this. She's just disrespectful

and after a certain point she stopped. Now that we are planning our wedding, we picked out our groomsmen and bridesmaids and my fiance has his female friend as one of his groomsmen, a groom's woman. After my fiance asked her to join that role, she texted me a lengthy paragraph which, to sum it up, said, just so you know your fiance and I are still each other's priority. You may marry him and have kids with him, share a house with him, but right now he picked me as a groom's woman knowing how that would bother you because he cares about not hurting my feelings more than your feelings. You can't easily ruin friendships like that. Just stay in your lane and accept your place. You might be his wife, but I'm his best friend and I'm not going anywhere. Make peace with it

and who knows, soon enough we might get along. I showed my fiance and he said he'll deal with her and I shouldn't worry. I told him I've had enough and that the only solution I'm accepting is proper consequences for her actions. That means she's either dropped as a groom's woman or uninvited. He makes the call for which one it will be, but I'm tired of his best friend not having real consequences of her actions and getting her way. I won't trust him enough to proceed with our wedding if he doesn't set clear limits and make his friend face the consequences of her behavior. He said, what I'm doing is very unfair because he is not responsible for her actions and feels like I'm putting unnecessary responsibility and pressure on him. Am I the

asshole? This one doesn't seem that hard to me, honestly. Okay, what's your knee-trick reaction? It just seems like I'm putting us in this situation, even though I don't have a close female friend, but let's say I did. You're cousin Josie and you are besties. This could be kind of the same vibe. I think the loyalty with the person you're about to marry should be the strongest one. If that ever happened, it would instantly for me, it'd be such an easy decision. I get they've been a friend forever and whatever, but I don't know. I've always been the kind of person where when people kind of cross me or something happens, I just like, I don't know. It's probably bad. It's probably really bad. You cut them off really quickly. I've cut a lot of bridges, especially in my teenage

years and things like that, but I just wouldn't put up with it. I wouldn't argue for that person that would say something like that to you. Yeah. Love it. I'm right there. I think we're all probably very aligned and very strongly about this one. I would actually go back to the definition. I don't think it's his best friend because if it was his best friend currently, the definition of a friend isn't somebody that would act this way. A friend is somebody that would have your back and support you. I think the responsibility fully lies on him and to be able to say, you're not a friend. You're not on my team. This is somebody who's not rooting for me and for my marriage. If the best friend had come and said, look, I got some concerns about this and here's

why. This is a destructive behavior and you have concerns, but it doesn't sound like, this is a jealousy. This is, again, I want the attention. I want that cell getting that circle around who's got the stronger dyad, that stronger team. To me, I look at from where his point is and where he's sitting and say, this is fully, again, his responsibility to set boundaries. I think there's this little bit of a myth that says, if I have a childhood friend, just because you share a childhood together does not mean that this is a friend, a true friend in real life now. Sometimes we need to leave it as, yes, this was a childhood friend. This was wonderful and we grow and we change and the dynamic may need to change. When I'm working with clients,

I use concentric circles. Concentric circles are circles within circles. I'll have a little circle and a bigger circle and then a bigger circle and a bigger circle and I'll say, okay, that little circle in between, in the middle, how many people could fit in there? One, maybe two. That is your inner circle. That is your ride and die. That is, they know everything, all those deep dark secrets and only one or two can fit in there. The next ring, this actually applies to this. Give the whole background here. The next ring are people that know majority about you. They know everything you would share. They may not know that deepest, darkest, but they would say, oh, this is one of my good friends. We got that middle, medium circle and then we got a bigger

one where this is if you random, oh, hey, how are you doing? Catch up. If you saw each other, you would definitely walk up. You're not going to pretend like you don't know them. The outer ring being people that you're like, oh, I know who that is from Instagram, but I won't go out and talk to them. I know you, you know me kind of thing. The challenge is when we don't realize that sometimes people need to move circles. Just because in your childhood they were in that inner circle doesn't mean you need to shift them out a ring or two. They won't do that realizing the relationships changed. I've changed. They've changed. I now have a partner. It has to change. It has to evolve. It sounds

like the best friend is very much stuck in childhood and not wanting to move on. Can you, can you feel that? Yeah. Well, and it sounds, you know, they are, she's 32. It doesn't sound like she has a partner. So I read this and I'm like, yeah, she's constantly in competition with you and doesn't have a partner because she's probably been holding out hope that her bestie is going to finally wake up one day and realize she's everything he's ever wanted. And that's not happening. And so like, like the satisfaction of her being a groom's woman, it's like, it's kind of like the, haha, like screw you. I am important. It's like the mic drop for her. And so it's like, absolutely. I feel like this is like Julia Roberts, my best friend's wedding.

I mean, somebody has to have this girl watch that, that movie, like, because I think Cameron Diaz wins out in the end. She sure does. But I'm, even as she started to tell the story, I was just surprised that he would invite her to be not only at the wedding, but part of the wedding. And part of the wedding party as a groom's woman, what, what message are you sending? That means that you are so important. And given, I mean, if they hadn't had a background, but given the, you know, the conflict and how continuous it was between the, his fiancee and her, I feel like, buddy, what are we doing here? Right? He's either clueless or he's making a definitive point. That's right. And if you're making the definitive point, then I think this one's sealed

up. But I, I, it's tough because I have had a lot, I've struggled a lot with the, the circles analogy where I've had close friends all through high school and I felt very guilty as I went through college and then moved to New York and then moved to LA. I felt very guilty having those friendships kind of slip to a different circle. And I think that's very hard to contend with because you are like, oh, we've been friends since first grade. With all these experiences, we had, it's kind of like when a relationship ends too. And you're like, well, but here's all the good things. We've been together for so long and, and that starts to try and become a reason to keep it in that circle. So I, I understand how that's difficult, but he drew the line and then

she came back and drew the line. So I'm just like, oh. Yeah. She, I mean, at that point, she just shot herself in the foot because to an extent she did when she's a groom's woman. And if she would have just kept her little mouth shut, she would have been standing up there. And so it's like, if this was truly about supporting your friend, which is like, it's an honor to be a part of someone's wedding party. It's a thank you for supporting me. Thank you for supporting my relationship. Thanks for being in my life, whatever it is. Like it's, it's an honor typically in my head at least. And so it's like, you got that. He was saying, I appreciate you, our friendship. And then she just like self sabotaged all the way out the

door. But I'm still, I'm so fascinated with him because notice even when she came back and she was outraged and showed him the best friends, you know, texts or comment, he did not, he said, I'll deal with it. Now imagine for a second, if she showed it to him and he was like, oh my gosh, this is completely unacceptable. I cannot believe she said this. There is no way she's going to be in this wedding. Can you imagine in the wife's body, the fiance's body, she'd be like, yeah, thank you. That's the proper response. She doesn't have, she wouldn't have to fight so hard if he set that boundary. Yeah. So we, a lot of times I'll ask my clients, wait, hold on. You, it's not that you're asking for a lot. It's not that you're going crazy because it makes us feel

like, am I being crazy? Am I being the overreactive one? And I'll say, wait, hold on, stop for a second. What would make your body feel better? Play it out. What would your body, what would, what would they do? What would it look like for you to be, to take a deep breath and usually right away, they can be like, oh, if he had just said this, this and this, and I'll be like, okay, try that on, play it out like a movie. And they'll play it out like a movie. And they'll be like, oh, I can sit back now. And I'm like, right, you can sit back, you can take a deep breath. And when you take a deep breath, what meanings and what the thoughts come into mind, I don't have to worry. He's got this. I'm okay. Yeah. And that's what their body's trying to get.

Yeah. And I think she kind of says like perfectly too, I won't trust him enough to proceed with our wedding if he doesn't set clear limits. And that's kind of all she wants. She just wants like exactly what you said to just be able to be like, okay, he's got it and not have to worry that, you know, he's not, I think like when you look at all of like, even this underlying theme, it's like, people just want to feel like their partner has their back or respects them, cares for them, prioritizes them. And so it's like, he's not doing that if he doesn't set her straight from the get go. That's right. I think it's very loaded. This is not just about him like doing the exact right thing because you know, nobody, what I'm looking for in relationships is

nobody's a mind reader. But what I'm looking for in relationships is a willingness. Is there a willingness when something's communicated with you to be able to say, okay, I understand that I got that I can make a change in adjustment. You know, and so I think that's what what she's needing to see is like, okay, does he step into action? Not that he would have known ahead of time, but like, can he now and you touched on that like safety or the trusting in a relationship with two parts, two parts that we build inside of us as an internal parent part of so that we don't realize as we get older and we our bodies get bigger. And part of it is building a parent inside of us because we still need somebody to take care of us. Two parts nurturing,

nurturing and loving and protective. And it's the same thing we often need in a relationship, not often that we need in a relationship in order to feel safe to components. Somebody has my back, there's a safety and trust in the relationship. And then I'm left its identity. It's the sense of being valued and loved, and it's protected and safe. So it's it's identity and safety to components that we're looking for that make us and when both of those are there, I feel loved. And I feel this is a safe place that my body can rest and relax. And that's what it's looking for. Definitely, we do have a little bit of an update. Okay. So the update update probably came sooner than I expected. And maybe you expected as well.

While I had this post up, I was sitting next to my fiance. I told him that I don't want to ask for feedback from family and friends. And I don't want them involved in our drama. So I'd rather get some unbiased feedback here. He's been reading some of the responses. And while at first, he was very defensive over his actions. He just now started realizing how he has to reflect on this a bit more. I also explained to him once again in detail on why what I think Rachel is doing is bad and how it might destroy not just our relationship, but any future relationship he might have, even after we break up because no person would be willing to stand for this disrespect. We're having to chat about it now. And he's

thinking of distancing himself from Rachel. And then edit number two, for the record, he decided to uninvite her from the wedding completely and later distance himself from her. Oh, good job, buddy. Good job. Yeah. And the one I mean, this is where this is why I like it's so my job in the way I'm wired, but I just want to sit down with them even and be like, well, help me, help me understand what were you getting from your relationship from her? Help me understand the route that you guys were so close. Help me understand why, why even at the risk of losing your fiance, that was still hard. Because the other thing, this is why we have to grace people. We don't know the stories. We don't know maybe Rachel's

like, you know, dad died when she was young and he was there. And that was something they'd gone through. We have to have a grace for people too, because we don't, we don't, we don't know the whole story. But I do love to see that he was able to see that and make those changes, because that's hard to do. Yeah, definitely. And the top comment on the original post is not the asshole, but Rachel wasn't wrong when she said he cared about more her feelings than yours. Please consider if you want the second most important person in your marriage. Wow. Yeah. Which is, I guess like, in that sense, it would have been true if he would have put like her needs before the fiance and kind of like you said, like, what are you getting out of this

friendship that you're willing to sacrifice your fiance, your life partner versus like this friendship? Like what, like, what's the draw? That's an interesting way to put it. Yeah, because if you're getting something or else you'd be like, oh, no problem, I can let it go. So there's something like, help me understand, what is there that keeps you so connected to that person? Yeah, that would be really interesting. I think even with stuff that isn't relationship-based, all the crazy stories we read on here, we would love to have that context, that extra bit of information, because it could color the entire thing in a different way. You'd see it through a whole different lens, but even in this one, it's like to have it almost like you said, to have it

to where you're almost going to leave your fiance for it. Yeah. I mean, that, that'd be some serious context. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's so, I mean, that's what you have to leave space to realize we don't have the whole story. And so I end all of my lives, all my podcasts, where I'm say, be kind to people. We have no idea what they're going through. You don't know their stories. I have a good girlfriend of mine right now who is dating a gentleman who has a drug and alcohol issue. Anybody in their right mind would be like, why are you doing that? What the hell are you doing? You already know walking in. This is not like a recovery. This is like actively. But if you sit down and she will say like, yeah, I know. I know. And I also know that I'm lonely.

And I know right now, I'm not in a place where I want to like, I don't want to date, don't want to meet somebody new. And at the same time, I don't want to be alone. And there's this part of you that goes, oh, when you slow down, you're like, I get that. I get that. So it's leaving space, space for those stories. But you started it out by saying, what do we think of people buy it with who have friends, you have a partner, and then you have friends that are of the opposite sex and keeping them around. And I get asked this a lot, like, do you think that if you're attracted to same sex or opposite sex that you could be around and not and have it stay a friendship. And this is just my theory. My theory is always, always hands down

if given a green light, at least one of them would say yes. There's always one part of the friendship that I think would go for it. Yeah. I just did an article. So I write for USA Today, like just doing relationship type advice, just like kind of the same thing we do on the podcast here time to time. And one of the write-ins recently was my boyfriend has a female friend. He will drop everything we're doing to answer her face times, her calls, her texts. And like, I don't get it. Am I crazy for feeling this way? Is this like an unfair ask to like kind of distance or like not respond so much? And so I was just kind of diving into it. And it's like, a lot of, because a lot of people can't have friends of, you know, different genders or whatever. But

one study I found said that males, people that identify as like, you know, cis male that is attracted to the opposite sex, 90% of them would be okay with things happening between that friend. I would not, I would not, that does not surprise me at all. Now, good news is we can, that we are, we are humans, we're not primitive animals, so we can manage those emotions, not to say, not control, we're not robots, but we can manage those. But yeah, I would not be surprised if, I assume it would be fairly, fairly high. I read one article that said, you know, when majority of males, that they, when they meet a female will often just categorize right away someone I would, I could, I would hook up with someone I went like, I could, yes, that could be physical or not physical,

not in a, not in just a hook up way. And I, and that's not a negative. I don't really say that, I don't see that as a negative, just understanding, even though we understand that about ourselves, again, there's just bringing it in and managing our emotions. You know, I, just because somebody may be attracted to somebody or somebody may have feelings for someone, it also doesn't mean you can't still keep it as a friendship. That you, that's why we said, again, we're back to these healthy boundaries. And in setting healthy boundaries, you just realize, okay, we, well, like if we go this direction, this is not going to help us. And so it's being, it's, I can, again, set healthy boundaries. I love using, in friendships in general, I like using the analogy though of

a ship, right? Whether it's in a mesh parent relationship or friendship relationship, because I always say you're on your own boat. You're, when you become an adult, you leave your parents' boat, you walk off their plank and you get on your own boat and you can, you can seal your boat near their boat. You know, you guys can go, you can, you can like take your fleet and all like sail together, right? But you're still on your own boat and you can decide to go in a different direction. You can decide to come back. What happens in a mesh relationships is when somebody else's boat is like, our boat's going down or you see the boat and it's taken on water or their boat, their boat's not in really good shape, their boat's like falling apart and like it's got cracked wood.

And so you keep throwing a plank onto their boat to go rescue their boat. What happens is if you have a partner on your boat with you, that doesn't go over super well, because they're watching you and you keep like throwing a plank on, running onto the boat. By the way, if you're trying to save somebody else's boat and rescue their boat, all you're going to do is sink your own ship at the same time. And so a lot of the analogy I will work as far as individuating, individuating is the opposite of a meshment. Individuating is where I can have me carrying and loving, but I stay on my own boat. And I'll say, nope, you stand on the edge of your ship and you say, I'm sad, I'm here to support you, I'm here to like cheer you on and help you and to be here at the same time, not my

boat, not my boat. And if I throw a plank on their boat and I jump on theirs, I will take my ship down too. Yeah. Do you feel like a bobblehead? I'm like, I'm watching, you know, your zoom and I'm, I still see me and Justin, we're just like little bobbleheads here. I'm like, yes. Like everything you say, I'm like, this just makes so much sense. And it doesn't matter what type of relationship, family, friendships, and it's just, yeah, like you, you have to still look out for yourself at the end of the day. Like you can't, I think I say like something like, like I can't burn myself to keep you warm or like, you know, when you're talking about relationships and that's the bottom line is like, you are the one looking out for yourself. And so you kind of

have to make sure you're taken care of. And then, yes. And it's the most selfless thing you can do for the people around you, because if I'm tending to people around you, if I'm tending to my kiddos, if I'm tending to my clients, if I'm tending, if I'm tending to people around, what are we, what are we tending with? If I don't keep my own tank full, what's flowing out of me? And so, yeah, I need to be, take care of myself, keep my tank full so that I can care for other people. That's where it says it's like, not my ship, because when I'm running onto other people's boat, then my ship will go down. If my ship goes down, then I'm not good to anybody around me. Yeah. So that's where we hold that. And there's that like, I can be caring and loving and still

set boundaries. I can be caring and loving and still say no. By the way, nobody gets excited for a boundary. I mean, if you're waiting for somebody to be like, oh, thank you so much. Thank you for staying on your own boat and not helping me, but that's not going to happen, right? No, no chance. No, no. Well, let's see what else I got. Walk the dogs, school drop off, meetings from 10 to three, take kids to soccer, then no time left for a jog. When everyone else is relying on you, it's easy to put your needs last. BetterHelp connects you with a licensed therapist online so you can show up for yourself the way you do for others. Find more balance with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com today

to get 10% off your first month. That's better, H-E-L-P.com. So I have one and it's parenting. And I think something I see a lot is what is the line of like, what can you share with your kids and what needs to be kind of kept between partners? And it's come up on like a story for us about Christmas presents and the dad, the dad cleaned out the mom's savings and so the kids weren't going to get Christmas anymore. And so the mom kind of just said, you know what, Christmas isn't going to look like it. I wanted it to because your dad did this and there was kind of a split between how much, you know, do you keep between you guys or let your kids in on? So this one is kind of

along those lines of like, what do you share and boundaries? Okay. Am I the asshole for showing the kids what their dad did? My husband was staying at the hospital for some health issues. After he got out, he started wetting the bed every few nights. We talked to the doctor about it and they gave us meds, but they take some time. So they suggested that my husband use adult diapers temporarily. He said, no. And since he's too sick to do anything, I'm the one having to clean up every time. I grew tired of it. He just kept wetting the bed and not even considering diapers at this point. Yesterday morning was my final straw. I saw that he'd wet the bed again and I just kind of went off. I kept talking, but it's like he wasn't hearing me at all because he just kept

staring at the wall. The kids hear the fuss and came in asking what's going on. I showed them the state of the bed, the sheets were in and said, quote, see, your dad keeps wetting the bed and throws tantrums when asked to wear a diaper. They stared at my husband, looked shocked. He had them leave the room, then said, I shouldn't have done that. In my defense, I wanted to defend myself because I thought it was unfair when the kids accused me of yelling at their dad for no reason. He said, I humiliated him in front of his kids and made him feel terrible. I told him he can be less embarrassed and feel less terrible when he stops wetting the bed like a child. He started crying saying he's struggling with his health and said that I was being cruel and condescending

towards him. Now I'm trying to turn the kids against him as well to shame him in front of them. My sister visited and when I vented to her about it, she said she understood, but I was still in the wrong for getting the kids involved. I'm feeling conflicted on whether I did the right thing, maybe to get him to understand how this has been affecting me as well. Am I the asshole for doing this? And then they do add, the kids ages are 11 and 13. That's what I was going to ask. That's the big factor there. Yeah. Huge. Yeah. Wow. This is a hard one. It makes you, I mean, I feel, I'm like, oh, I feel for the kids. It's like I feel for her. So what I see this is, is when I look at this from a psychological lens, she's just trying to get, she's looking

to where she has control because she doesn't have control. And if I don't have control over what my husband's doing and his actions and how they're affecting me, then our bodies will look for where they do have control. And so her being able to say something to the kids is a place that she has control of because that's her, her body. So I simply see it as her way of being frustrated, out of control, resenting. Resentment is when somebody else's actions are affecting us and we feel like we don't have control. Okay. So my encouragement right there from, from a clinical point of view, but if she was sitting in front of me, I'd be like, all right, let's, let's see if it comes out. I love it. I'd be like, let's, where else do we have control? All right,

we can be angry. We can be mad. Where else can we point at? Where else can, where do we have control? What is in our control? Right. And so to help her come up, formulate some ideas, so it doesn't have to go towards the kids. I think they just happen to be around and be by standards in the closest thing by, so they ended up being a little collateral damage there. But baby being saying, okay, do we need to go back to him and say, you know, I love you, this is not working. So either you need to do the diapers or we need to get a caregiver in here. Like, what are some of our other options so that you don't, or what is in your control, so that you don't feel like so much resentment that it's like her, her fire hydrants going off.

I always say when, I mean, your fire hydrant, we just need to point it somewhere else. So I, you know, I don't look at that. I don't think she's, she's doing it to be, I think she's just trying to have control and it's just coming out of her. And I say, okay, your fire hydrants unloading, let's just, where else can we point it? So it's not doing, doing damage. You know, that's a hard one. I mean, those, they're not littles. They're not littles, but they're not, they don't have a mature adult brain at like 25. They're still in 11, 13, that is tough because they still need a mom and they still need a dad. And they, they won't understand the whole picture yet. So I would still step and be like that, that has to

be an adult issue. I always try to separate these adult issues or these kid issues, right? What I would encourage her to do is to find language to say what the kids to say, this is really hard. And this is really frustrating. And here's the ways I'm working on coping with that, because kids, as you're going to get older, there's going to be things that are out of your control that are really hard. And as parents, we need to model for our kids when things are hard. If we do everything behind closed doors and try to act like everything's great. And then like, then our kids don't ever learn of like, what do we do when things are hard? How do you cope when you're sad or you're depressed? How do you cope when the stresses of life get too big? And so we, as,

as parents, I'll often have them model for their kids. Like, you know, I'm, mom's just having a rough day. I'm going to go for a run. And when I come back and I'm going to cool it all down, then I'll come back and we'll have that conversation. How am I modeling regulating my body to my kids? But they still need a mom and they still need a dad. And I say that a lot. I work, I don't know how I fell into this niche, but I work on custody cases. So I'll often be assigned as minor's therapist, which usually if you're doing that, it is a knockdown, drag out, nasty divorce. And one of my hardest things is to try to get both parents to like, do not put your kids in the crossfire, which they do because they still need a mom and they

still need a dad. And so that's why I would say to her too, like, ooh, they still need a dad, even though you're angry and frustrated at the husband he is, they still need a dad. And we need to leave him untouched. Yeah, definitely. I look at this too, and health issues are so, so difficult. And just the way, you know, by the sounds of it, his mental health could be suffering. I'm like, okay, is he now dealing with some depression because of this new diagnosis and this new challenge. And as an OT, like having a caregiver or even like there's respite care where people will come in just for a couple hours to get mom out of the house, give her a break. And there's so many other options you could do. And I think in this situation, like you said, the kids were kind

of just in the crosshair and just the victims in this, because this one, for me, I'm like, it's really tough. You're the asshole for handling it in that moment the way you did. I get you're struggling, but there's a little bit better of a way that could have gone down to not make your kids like the victims in this as well. And so I'm like, oh, this one is just, there's so much going on, like the depression side, the health side. But then I'm like, okay, but he does need to take initiative. And if he is uncomfortable wearing the diapers, then maybe sleeping in a separate bed or, you know, whatever, we also don't have a great understanding of what his health complications look like. Is he, is he now paralyzed? And that's why he's incontinent or

like really what is he able to do? Because he might be wetting the bed, but is he able to clean the sheets himself then? There's so much more I just, I want to know here, but I know. And the caught you, you mentioned the mental, we don't know that there's cognitive impairment or, or not as, as well. I mean, again, I, there's that balance of I absolutely like have so much compassion for how hard this is for her. And at the same time saying, of course, your fire hydrant is going to like shoot out of water. We just need to figure out another place to point it. Yeah. And I've, with the, the other kids one that we read before that she mentioned at the start, I, my mind always goes to when it is that type of situation, like where it's so direct

and you're in the middle of it and it's argument or a problem like this. I don't think it's ever smart to bring the kids into it. So I like what you said about, you know, you can let on the fact that things aren't perfect. Cause I've actually never thought about it that way. And that's a really interesting thought, but not to put them in the crossfire. And I think that delicate balance is really smart, but I just loved your point about letting them in on, oh, it's just like a hard day or it's a hard time or there's this kind of struggle going on. Yeah. Well, I think with that too, it's I'm not a parent. And you know, I've got some great role models in my life doing it. My brothers, they're very on the, the gentle parenting, which is just really, really cool to watch

play out because it's different than what we grew up with. But it just seems like it could have been so easy in this situation. Like the kids obviously hear them and the commotion and she's at her wit's end losing it over, you know, bed, wedge sheets again. It could have just been so easy as things are a little stressful right now. Just go in the kitchen, I'll be out in a minute and just shut the door and then have the conversation between the two of you. And I think like you said, like the Christmas one was a little different. It's not, the Christmas one didn't feel so heavy to me. Still heavy, but like, and I think the kids were actually similar ages than that one. But I mean, even in this case, though,

we've all been in that position and we've all let it slip and we've all just kind of screw it. Here we go. You just kind of like fire it out and you don't care what the consequence is. So I think it's, it's hard when you're at your wit's end to consider all of this and really like pull yourself in and make that, you know, the, the, the better decision. Right. Right. Well, this is why it's so important when I teach from this, you have to regulate your body first and then, then communicate. If you try to communicate when you're already bumped out of your zone, we all do, we all fire, we all say things, we all do things. And then once our body's regulated, we just, oh, it's the worst feeling

and it's yucky and I do it too. And it's just, you know, it's when those continue to say, okay, how do I regulate my body first? I've got to blow it out, go for a walk and then till my nervous system shifts so that I can commute in a, communicate in a place that's not coming out of like a charge, a reactionary place. Right. So I think in this case, when you're asking, am I the asshole? I think, sure, what you could have done is an asshole type of thing to do, but I, I don't think there's a hundred percent blame because, because it's just human to do that. But I think it comes with, no, maybe you're not fully the asshole, but in the future, maybe it's, it's learning to have that mental strength to recenter yourself before, before

doing something regret. There's also a really small little adjustment she can make here too that would also sit better in her body and sound better to, to, to the kids too. And that is to be angry at a situation and not the person. And again, I think this is like about, I'm angry at him because, because he's the one that won't put the diaper on. So that's where I'd go to say, how do I separate this out? How do I communicate with him and set boundaries with him? We're back to the boundaries part to say like, okay, this is not working for us. So let's come up with some other options because this whole you not wearing diapers is not, is not working for us. So if I, where do I have control? Where can I communicate with him so that I can go back to the kids and be

like, this is a lousy situation. I'm upset at the situation. Being upset at a situation or predicament is different than being upset at the person. That's where I say, leave him untouched and just, it's a shitty situation. It's just a shitty situation. And somebody, guess what? Life's going to throw those at you. Yeah. Well, and this is something too, I had a story recently where someone was writing in to Reddit and they, they were asking if they would be wrong for taking out the in sickness part of their wedding vows. They didn't want that in there. They wanted an out. If their partner got sick, they wanted to leave because they didn't want to be a caregiver and knew that life was going to get tough. And so

I think with this, it's too, your partner, you know, from the sounds of it, this sounds like a new issue. It didn't sound like he's been wetting the bed for years and years. So it's kind of like, it's a really tough situation, but that's kind of life sometimes. Like life throws us these crazy curve balls. And so how can you look after yourself and practice self-care so you don't get overwhelmed and blow up like this? And I guess my, I had a question too. I know the term flooded. It's like a therapy term and I think it's kind of coming up a lot and people are using it a lot now or sometimes misusing it. And I look at this and I'm like, the fact that she says, I kept talking, but it's like he wasn't hearing me at all because he just

kept staring at the wall. And so I look at that and I'm like, it sounds like he was completely overwhelmed. She's overwhelmed, but reacting in a very different way. And it's just like, you just wish that you could have just gone in between them and just been like, let's just pause for a second here. You're not being heard and you're not being heard. And when no one feels like they're being heard, when I'm structuring clients in session, what a lot of what I'm doing, which a lot most clients, which most therapists do is like, hold on, wait, because when they're saying something, you're already thinking how you're going to fire back or why you're logically going to say back, thinking like, oh, if they just hear me say this, then they're

going to be like, oh, okay. I mean, think about when's the last time you were in an argument and you finally said what you wanted to say and the other person was like, oh, okay, now I'm good. Like that doesn't happen, right? Like, if anything, I just feel more unheard and no one's listening to me. And so it's slowing down. You're right. Just to exactly like, hold on, but how, you know, what is he saying? I'll have a mirror back. What do you hear him saying? And it's so interesting. Even if the person is like angry and upset and they're like, what I heard him say was, you know, that this, you know, he doesn't want to wear a diaper because and then I'll say to him, okay, did she get it right? And he'll be like, yes, there's something about

when we feel heard is the most regulating thing to our body. So if we can slow down, separate out and create dynamics where we feel heard, it'll end up being like, okay, there's that deep breath. Now we can actually get somewhere. That's what prevents a lot of the flooding. Yeah. Well, it's like our whole nervous system in these, you know, tiffs or these difficult times, it's like our nervous system is so heightened and it's like almost like that fight or flight. And it's like, you're not going to receive any information or be able to have any sort of progressiveness or move past this if you're so wired or juiced up or whatever. Right. And interesting. So in that state, that's where I say we're like bumped out of our

zone. So that's where we go from a parasympathetic state where our nervous systems at rest to a sympathetic state, which means it's in that fight or flight mode. And that's bumped out of your zone. So when you're bumped out, your nervous system's on, it's that fight or flight response or freeze response, which is what he was doing. He was like in a freeze response, right? And interesting enough, in that state, if you get in an argument and you bump into that state, it feels like the entire relationship hinges on that moment. It feels like it's all at stake. It's all on the line and it will always feel this way. One of the big indicators you know you're out of your zone is if there's a sense of, it doesn't feel like, okay, let me just let this

pass. It is like, it will always be this bad if it's an always state. So it doesn't, your body doesn't feel like it's coming to an end or it's temporary. Well, and I think a lot of times too, that I've tried to learn throughout different relationships and things is arguments are, can be a healthy thing. And I think are a necessary thing, whereas so many people try to avoid arguments or confrontation or, but I think in relationships and in friendships and with family, I think it's important because that's how you actually get somewhere. That's how you can actually set a boundary, but you need to do it while being heard and while listening, which can be very hard in those moments too. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Well, unlike this too, I'm thinking about, we're typically good at communicating, but we're not perfect. And so I'm thinking about the times where it has felt like almost like a World War III. And I'm just like, we just got to talk about this now. We can't move on. We can't do anything else. There needs to be a resolution now. And I'm hearing this and I'm like, I think you're very good at being like, no, let's just take a breather, let's pause. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I need to just hammer this out now. So I think if you can be more aware of that and realize you're not going to be successful in that state, pause, put a pin in it. Right. And it's such a hard body feel because it feels like until I've re-established that

attachment, it literally feels like all hell is breaking loose. It's like everything's been lost until we feel like the attachments re-established. And then our body goes, so if somebody's like, no, no, it's a part of it is almost, and I know you said you haven't had babies yet, but I've had, I've had three and I can tell you I missed, I missed drugs with two of them and the birthing contractions were brutal, but like, it's like a birthing contraction. Literally, it's just like trying to breathe through something painful without doing anything. I can't move. I can't do anything. I just have to like breathe through this and it's really painful knowing I can't just make

it go away in that moment. Yeah, right. Yeah, it's tough. Well, and so the vote on this one was everyone sucks. So it wasn't you're not the asshole or you are the asshole. It's just like everyone sucks. And so like just kind of like scanning the comments, it seems like there are a lot of people on both sides. The top one does say, I'd love to see everyone who has judged you as an asshole clean the bed of someone who refuses to wear diapers repetitively. And just people kind of just break it down. Like it's hard being a caregiver, especially when it's a family member, it's, you know, you're in it. And so they kind of just really do say like, the situation sucks, everyone sucks, you both can be handling it better.

And hopefully it is, you know, again, I love when things really apply to life without even me too. So I mentioned my dad passed away at the beginning of this year. And my parents have been married for 53 years. My mom's been with him since she was like 19 years old. He has a he had a disease like ALS. It's called PSP. It's in the same family of neurological diseases. But he went from being a very high power prominent attorney to not being able to walk or talk. And my mom and financially, they're very grateful that they could have caregivers come. But she was incredibly devoted to him all the way through. And we all would say I'm one of five kids. And we'd all be like, Oh, like that is it was rough. It was an ugly way to die. It was it was it was a very

challenging at one point he like fell on her and she broke her back. I mean, it was not it was not pretty. However, I think this is where sometimes our world gets it a little wrong, in that it was painful and it was hard and it was not easy. And at the same time, the silver lining of these moments when I would watch him care when I'd watch her care for him. And these little moments where she would crawl up next to him when he couldn't walk or talk anymore and just like brushes hair, these sweet moments that I don't think ever would have happened had they not been in the midst of suffering and the way we all pulled together the way my siblings all pulled together and the way our relationships got so much deeper, because we were all rallying around this really hard thing

in our life. And I'm not I'm not trying to make it all butterflies. It was hard. It was nasty. It was an ugly way to go. And I would say the same thing for this gal. And at the same time, I would encourage her look for little things that otherwise would not have happened that are there because I do believe they're there. Sometimes we have to look but there is beauty in the in the midst of suffering and I've seen it over and over again. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, it's such and typically you hear the opposite and one I'm so sorry for your loss and it's still it's so fresh and losing it's a lot. And so you hear these stories from people and it's typically when when families go through that it's the opposite. Everyone pulls apart, there's fighting, there's so much just

anger, sadness, resentment, whatever those feelings are. And so to hear yours and everyone got closer, more supportive and kind of rallied around him, your mom and stuff like that. It's good to hear and you hope that maybe this situation when she's not so overwhelmed could become something like that. Yeah. And not and again, it can be very overwhelming. I just said this to one of my kids recently. I said, doll, in life, you're going to be given opportunities. They're invitations where you either lean in or lean out. And leaning out is where you are fighting, you're at each other's, it just gets more contentious. And I said, and my prayer for you is that you will lean in, lean into the heart. And that's I think our family, that's what we've done, not perfectly,

no family is, but really leaning into the heart. It's amazing. They're all lucky to have each other. Walk the dogs, school drop off, meetings from 10 to three, take kids to soccer, then no time left for a jog. When everyone else is relying on you, it's easy to put your needs last. BetterHelp connects you with a licensed therapist online, so you can show up for yourself the way you do for others. Find more balance with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's better H-E-L-P dot com.

Okay, are you okay on time? I don't want to keep you too... I do need to wrap up. One more thing I've got to do this evening. Perfect. So I did have a listener right in. And her post is very long, but essentially the summary of it is she had a really difficult childhood. Her parents were drug addicts, very abusive, and just it wasn't a great childhood for her. And so she's asking now, am I wrong for not caring to build an adult relationship with my parents? She's now 36 weeks pregnant, and mom is trying to reconcile things, and she really isn't interested in any of it. And so she just kind of wants to make sure like, can I move forward without

feeling like the asshole for not wanting to reconnect with them? And am I the asshole for not caring for them to have a relationship with my child? And so I think a lot of people kind of go through that. It's like, I don't want a relationship with that person anymore. I'm okay drawing that boundary. Is there anything you would say to someone who might be wrestling with those feelings? Yeah, no, that's a good one. Again, I've had very similar client situations to this. I would say, first of all, well, again, I use this phrase a lot, help me understand where you're coming from. Is this something that you're questioning internally? Or is this like a should? This is what I think I should be doing. And that the should, whenever we say should,

it's like an obligation or like a societal expectation. And I always say, it does us no good to act on our obligation or should, because then you're not really going, it's you going because you think you should, but that part of you isn't going to want to be there. And so that's where I, and we don't, it doesn't mean we do everything just like I want to. And if I don't want to, I don't do it. No, but we want to understand where is this coming from? Why are we even questioning this now? Is it because they're reaching out? And so what I would do, first of all, I wouldn't decide anything at 36 weeks pregnant, your hormones are upright left down. I mean, you can't make sense. I cried at the drop of a hat. I mean, they're out of French fries and I

sat there in the McDonald's drive through and bawled because like I couldn't get like a fry. Like this is not the time to be making like my emotions are all over the place. Like your hormones are crazy at 36 weeks pregnant. Yeah. Yeah. So I give a lot of grace for that. Like give yourself a lot of grace. I would want, I would want some extra details things. For instance, like, well, what is it? What are they like now? How long are they fully recovered? Are they been in recovery for how long have they been in recovery? When you look at, watch with your eyes, when you see what your eyes, what do you see? Is there any, any concerns that you have back to the concentric circles we talked about earlier? Is there a place where you want to put them on the

outer circle? Doesn't mean you have to have them on the inner circle or the first? Like, do we want to put them? Sorry, my dog's moving. He's readjusting. All right, you got it dude, circled back around. I get to say, where do I want to place you? And this is where it's not black or white. It's not you're in my life or you're out of my life. Do we want to do where I see you on a holiday? Or I see you once a year? So it doesn't have to be so all or nothing. I can find where in the circles that I want you. And then if the space is, I don't want them there at all. I have to give somebody grace to be where they are. What I'm looking for though is, okay, well, help me understand when you think about not having them in your life at all. What do you, why?

Why is that? Oftentimes, I will feel, I will hear very childlike statements. Because remember, we still carry those young parts of us. Everything our bodies experience, our bodies don't know time. So even though we grow and our bodies get older and a little bit more wrinkled, like we still carry all those experiences with us. And so our body, and so I'm very, to force somebody into having a relationship, they could have a very much a child that hasn't addressed a lot of those wounds and trauma it sounds like they had when they were young and trying to force them into a place that doesn't feel safe. So I would simply say, well, again, this is where I'd work with a therapist and encourage her to work with the therapist. And

if she ever got to a point where that was something she was open to, then I'd say, we'll address that then. But this is where we are now. When it comes to that piece about her child wanting a relationship or what that dynamic, you got some time. Yeah, child's not born yet, right? And so I get to be able, until that child's old enough to decide on their own, I get to be able to step in and I would, okay, let's think about what consequences that could have for that child, would they end up being upset at you for you not having them around. So you kind of walk through and help somebody understand. But ultimately, you're getting back to what sits well on my body. Because in some ways, if someone were just to give a blanket answer, like, no, that's wrong

of you to keep them, that could be very re-traumatizing because we don't know her trauma history. Yeah, definitely. And she sent me the link and I didn't even realize I was a listener and I went through it and I immediately was like, no, like if you've gone through all this, kind of like what you said, you have to make a decision that you can sit right with and makes you feel safe and happy. And so I think, you know, this people have this with friends too, they're like, I want to demote my friend, I don't really want to be as close with her anymore. And it's like, if that's what you need to make you feel happy and whole, then like, you don't need permission from anyone, like, you're good, you can do that. So yeah, I think, I think you nailed it.

Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope this was helpful. It was so good. I'm just like sitting here. I just like, I need to like after I hit the end on the record, I'm like, I'm just going to sit here and just... Oh, I know. Yeah. Like, you're absolutely incredible. You're amazing. Oh, thank you. Yeah, amazing. Where can everyone find you? I know you started your own podcast recently. It's really good. I did. I did. Yeah, which is the irony is I, but when I started it, I'd never listened to a podcast before. And there I was. So everything on TikTok, podcast,

YouTube and Instagram is so my mom's a therapist. Amazing. Pays not to two of my favorites, being a mama and being a therapist. Amazing. I'll be sure to link all of Lisa's stuff in the description on the YouTube and the podcast so you guys can easily find her. But thank you so much. Oh, it is my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Okay. So this is a bonus story because I felt bad about how many ads there were in an episode because there was a lot of talking and we didn't get to so many stories.

So this is a bonus on the, so my mom's a therapist episode. And Lauren magically appears. I mean, something. Can you add like graphics on the YouTube? Yeah, of course. Nice. So I actually read this. I like gold, so. Okay. Gold? Me too. Gold is actually only created through. Oh God, don't get him going again.

I did not mean to do that. Don't get him going again. You like that gold? Yeah. That was a good plug. So I actually decided to adventure out on my TikTok journey today and it was very scary. I want to start posting stuff on the two outtakes account that isn't necessarily me sitting at this desk and I posted my first video today and it was very scary and a lot of people got mad at me and told me to move my big head and move and blah, blah, blah, blah.

Wait, what? Where? On the two outtakes account. So I posted like, I hear funny audio and then I'm like, oh my God, it reminds me of that Reddit story and how funny would it be if I like lip sunk that audio, but then posted a screenshot of the Reddit story. And I thought it was so funny and people like just wanted to know the story and we're just like in the comments yelling at me to move. You look so cute in this. I did a really, really, like I tried my best to lip sync. It's not.

It was almost if you hadn't, it was a, it was like a fresh reaction. The lip sync? Yeah. Yeah, no, I really invested my time. I want to be, I'm so creative and I get so many ideas, but I feel so stifled by the fact like I'm like, oh, I don't want people to hate this different idea I have because it's not me sitting at the desk reading the story. So I posted this. Oh, so you moved. So I literally, I got bullied. I got bullied by my own TikTok followers to read the story. You succumbed to the pressure.

Wait, so I'm confused. Is it a second post? It's a redo. It's embarrassing. Got it. It's embarrassing. How many likes does that one have? Look at Mogan move up to the corner. I made my head small.

If you guys, if you're still on the tip, Wow, the one where she's actually out of the way does have more likes. But less views. Oh, what does that say? It's not a good thing if there's less views and more likes. Well, it means, yeah, it means it's better received. Yeah. Yeah. So we're doing this story for real because after I did all this, it didn't even click in my stupid

brain that something also similar. So don't be mean to yourself. Okay. I'm more excited to hear Lauren's take on this because you'll see. Am I the asshole? And, and sorry, it does fit in still with the theme of enmeshment and healthy boundaries. It's the healthy boundaries of just to be clear. I thought it was unresolved. No, this is the new one unresolved is next week.

That's right. Yeah. Am I the asshole for not letting my girlfriend sleep with me in my bed? I 22 male share an apartment with my best friend, Mike, 22 male. And Mike's girlfriend, Daisy, 23 female. We only have two bedrooms. Daisy is a heavier lady. She prefers the term big boned.

She also has sleep apnea. For these reasons, Daisy has her own bedroom. Mike and I share the other bedroom. I've been dating my girlfriend, Shandy, 25 female for four months now. She was over at our place watching a movie with us last night and decided to spend the night. Shandy knows about our sleeping arrangements and doesn't have a problem with it. But she assumed that she'd sleep with me in my bed when she stayed over. I don't blame her for assuming this because this is the first time she spent the night.

But there's only space for one double bed in me and Mike's bedroom. And he and I share it together. Mike has a bad back and is too tall to sleep on the couch in our living room. And it would be rude of me to ask him to give up his part of the bed for my guest. I'd sleep on the couch and let Shandy take my part of the bed. But I didn't think Mike would be comfortable with that, so I didn't offer to. I told Shandy that she could sleep on the couch and I'd bring her pillow and blankets. She asked if she could sleep with me and I explained to her why she couldn't.

Shandy seemed fine with this and we all went to bed normally. However, she left quickly this morning and when I called and asked if everything was all right, she said she was a little disappointed we couldn't sleep together and was upset that I chose Mike over her. This made me feel bad because my intention was never to upset her. So I'm wondering if I'm the asshole for not finding a way to allow Shandy to sleep with me. This is weird. This is beyond weird.

This is like a comedy show. Okay, so you all say your piece and then I will come in. Well, I guess I understand specific dynamics that can make it harder when you have a significant other. I mean, I did after college share a room for an entire year with Sarah, given it was a dope room. But I was thinking about the other day, we didn't date anyone during that entire year. We didn't even, what did you do when you brought boys home though? Or people home?

It happens so rarely. Did one of you go on the couch though? Or did you go to the boys place? Yeah, that's what I was thinking about the other day. I was just like, it really was never an issue. One time I opened up the door and I didn't know that she was with the guy and it was jarring. But other than that, the communication was really on one. Were they like snagging?

No, but there and there was queen beds and so we had a lot of space and everything. But my point is, is that I get that there's certain dynamics sometimes where it's just like, we wanted to save money for our first year at a college and sharing a room did that, right? But I think that if you are dating and you're trying to be in a serious relationship, you have to really consider how hard those type of dynamics are going to be on the person that you're dating, if they can't just spend the night sleeping next to you. Maybe just sleep on the couch with them, right? Take the couch cushions off and then realize if you're very serious about this person,

then whatever situation you're in, I know it doesn't always work like this, but try your hardest to get into a situation where you can be a little bit more independent in that way, right? I think it's weird. I don't know his dynamics, but I think it's weird. Sharing the couch is bad, dude. Yeah, but at least for the night, you get to be right next to them. If I were Shandy, which is a cool name, by the way, but if I were her,

I would at least want to just be next to them or at least offer that. I'm in a weird situation right now. I'm sorry, it sucks, but I want to sleep next to you. Do you want to sleep out on the couch together? We can move the back pillows. Me, it doesn't have done that. It is very challenging. Well, I think being able to sleep next to each other is a huge part of a relationship.

I agree. Like, huge, bigger than people think. I agree. I think it's more important than sex. I would, I would concur. Yeah, I would concur. But then I said, I said agree. But I concur.

Do you need to say something? I keep losing my shit laughing. I didn't even think about this when I posted all these TikToks. Me and Lauren shared a bed for four months. That's what I was just going to ask. Why did I forget about that? I forgot about it. Yeah, we did.

I fucking blacked it out. I forgot about it. Me and Lauren slept in the same bed for four months. And so everyone was coming for these guys. They were like coming. Like every night, it's like goodnight. We would brush our teeth together. We were like a little couple and then we'd go to bed.

But I don't even know how I slept with you because you slept over a couple of times recently and like you are violent with your legs. You never seemed to have a problem with it when we were together for four months. I know. So I'm like, how did this happen? But I literally, everyone was like, um, I also built a pillow wall though too. We did. We really did.

And our bed wasn't a full like theirs. We did have a queen, which is four inches of extra space and it's super valuable. Do we ever have like a guy over? I did once and you went on the couch. You were very kind about it. Of course. You had people sleep over. Yeah, once.

It was like, I think it was like a one night stand. Oh, I could never sleep over with people like that. It was the worst night of sleep in my life. No, I think we fucked and he left and then I like went back on the couch and I was like, okay, Lauren, you can come back in now. Really bad friend moment on my part. I don't think so. Um, I literally was like in the comments on the TikTok and people were like,

oh my God, Daisy is their beard and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's a, that's wild. Yeah. So like I was reading the TikTok comments and I don't know how I spaced this out, but I was literally like, me and Lauren shared a bed for four months. Okay. This, okay. Like, and that's the thing though is that whenever me and you shared a bed and then when me and Sarah shared a room, it's like, we were all so on our just like in no intention to we're just like, we were sharing a space.

That's not where I was going with that. Okay. I was going to say, we had like no intention of like actually like seriously dating someone at that point in our life. So we were just living for the girls, you know, just having fun, just enjoying moments with each other. Exactly. And so I think that's why it was able to work. We weren't like deep into being like, we're going on dates every other night and like trying to find our someone.

We were just like genuinely, yeah, for the girls. Yeah. What do you think of this? What do you think of me sharing a bed with Lauren for four months? Is that weird? Like, are you kind of like, oh, that's goofy. As a guy, would you ever put yourself in this situation me and Lauren put ourselves in? I don't think it's me being a guy.

I think it's just me being me. Okay. Like I've always wanted, I don't know. I have this, see the thing is, is like I in music and especially when we had no money and we were touring around playing shows, like Austin and I can share a bed just fine. Yeah. We both are the type that get in bed and you sleep like you're in your coffin. You're carps first.

Seriously. Yeah. And so I, it's just more of a, I guess a personal preference on my end. I just love, especially at this age, like to have your own hotel room at this age just sounds so amazing. You know what I mean? And it has nothing to do with being in a relationship or whatever, but no, I- But is it ultra weird that both of these people are in relationships and yet?

Yeah. Not sleeping with their partners? Yeah. I think especially once you enter your twenties, you start to have more serious relationships where, yeah, I think my first instinct would be like, I got to figure out my living situation because I can't be sharing a bed with Mike if I'm trying to have a serious relationship with this girl. And I'm certainly not going to be in the position to start having the start of a relationship

with a girl and be like, yo, you're going to go sleep on the couch. You're going to go sleep by yourself tonight because I got to still share the bed with Mike. Like I'm just picturing the first times you were coming over. I'd be so weirded out. If you came over and you were like, and I mean, I, when I first met you, I was like, if you would want to sleep hard and be like, oh my God, yes, I would have, like, I would have made the, like, I would have done whatever. I would have, I would have brought you water to the, like, I would have done everything I

could because I'd be so excited to have you there. But having, but then if it would been like, no, uh, are you cool sleeping on the couch right here? Cause I'm, you know, I got to go sleep with Jake. Well, and that's like kind of the point Lauren made is like, if you're in a relationship with someone like, yeah, you have this weird sleeping arrangement. That's one thing. But then like make a bed out in the living room with her.

Yeah, or, or, or I get the, he said that his roommate has a bad back, right? I would just be like, do you mind for one night or do you think it's going to hurt your back and ask that in front of her, right? Yeah. And if he's just like, dude, really like, it's going to ruin my day tomorrow. I'll be like, okay, then like, I want to sleep on the couch with you and then. I've done that. If she's like, I don't want to sleep on the couch, then how about he's like, I'm going

to buy us an Uber to your place. Yeah, you know, there, there are other ways to do it. There's way to just like show a little more. A little more effort because honestly sharing a leather couch with someone is just not, I get it in this sense, but it's just not a play. We didn't, we, I don't think either of us slept that night. No, it is really bad. It's bad.

Lauren's like, I have a nice upgrade. So here's the thing that, that really confuses me with this situation. I went to go look at OP's post and just like common history and stuff like that. Very responsive throughout comments. And I will just say one other thing to consider here is the fact that Daisy, Mike, his friend's girlfriend, does have sleep apnea. So I know there are a lot of couples out there that do have separate bedrooms to get healthy sleep.

They're very happy couples, but still have separate bedrooms. Daisy has sleep apnea. Maybe she has a sleep apnea machine, like a CPAP. And those are loud. They're loud. And so maybe that's the reason for them sleeping apart. But then at the same time, like find a cheaper living situation that you can get three bedrooms or like, I still am like weirded out.

Like get, get the bunk beds that are like full size bunk beds. Like it's still weird. Did they say anything about how old they were? Like what they're 22. 22. Okay. 22 year old males and Daisy was 23. So very fresh.

Like still kind of like don't give a fuck. So that's kind of, that's like literally where we were at, right? Like we were sharing a bed when we were 22. Well, and there's also people like, I mean, I see TikToks all the time of like girls that live in New York and there's like six girls in a two bedroom apartment. Like there's people that do this shit. Like to make life work and like living expenses right now, rent in America is astronomical. It is, it is unregulated and unattainable and there's so many problems with it.

So like I get that aspect, but I did go to look at OP's comments and post history. And there is a post one month after this one, which makes me think he's upkeeping his account. OP comments a lot, like being like, people are like, why aren't you denying this? Well, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Why aren't you denying that you're with Mike? And OP goes, what's the use in denying? People believe what they want to believe. Arguing back and forth about it would make us both fools.

But then OP goes on to post a month after this one, am I the asshole for not wanting to go to couples counseling with my best friend's girlfriend? Which makes me think like their dynamic is so unhealthy and OP is either like an emotional fluffer in their relationship or like the lines are so blurred. Damn. It ain't right guys. And that's where we end the bonus segment. This could have been unresolved honestly, which is next week.

But it's a spoiler. It's like inception. Spoiler, it feels like inception. Like people, you'll get it when you, when you see them both. But we just recorded an episode and then we did this bonus for an episode that's coming out sooner than the episode that we're just recorded. So it is like inception. Shit's getting fucking crazy.

I know and the energy that we have right now is so different than the energy of like the whole episode that this even like a little, little segment is on. So sorry for the shock, the culture shock. Well, Morgan opened up today and was like, I want to be unhinged. So yes, the energy probably is a little different. Sorry, sorry guys. But until next time guys. Bye.

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