Undetermined - Limbo | 6

Episode Date: January 10, 2023

Who is investigating Jessica’s case? We uncover the answer and moreover, a systemic issue within New Orleans. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hupa Valley grapples with a crisis, a series of unsolved disappearances spanning decades, and we've been hearing about a lot of them. I've been following your new season about Ashley Lorshler. I'm sure you may have been contacted regarding the name of Alia Heavy Runner. Many of the missing and murdered are indigenous persons. And we wondered, what factors make this tribal land a place where people just vanish?

So we started looking into it. People seem to be very hesitant to come forward because they're scared for their own safety. You don't know if she was trafficked. You don't know if she was murdered. What's even more crazy is that person whoever did it is probably someone we all know here. From Tenderfoot TV, I'm Celicia Stanton and this is the vanishing point an up and vanish series. Available now, listen for free on Apple podcasts.

Hey listeners, Jessica here. Be sure to check out new episodes of Undetermined every Tuesday for free wherever you get your podcasts. For early and ad-free listening, check out 10-foot-plus on Apple Podcasts. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals interviewed and participating in the show and do not represent those of Tenderfoot TV and resonate recordings. All individuals described or mentioned in the podcast should be considered innocent until found guilty in a court of law. This podcast contains subject matter,

such as violence and graphic descriptions, which may not be suitable for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised. It felt like there was no real investigation at all. Regardless of any and all information that Audra and Mandy have shared with them, it just went nowhere. I feel like most detectives in that situation would use a lot less to do more.

Even reading the autopsy report, it kind of paints its own picture. It really does. I put it this way. If it seemed like some sort of foul play, to three amateurs, I can only imagine how it would look to someone who does this every single day. You're flying to meet with a new supplier to keep your business growing. And with the business platinum card from American Express, you can earn $820 in new value and more, which includes a $200 travel credit toward your flight. Now boarding business class.

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anytime, anywhere, at participating restaurants in Canada. anywhere at participating restaurants in Canada. My team and I have been actively investigating Jessica's case for over two years now. In all of my conversations with Jessica's family, something they've made abundantly clear is their lack of faith in the NOPD. Their biggest fear in all of this isn't that answer surrounding Jessica's death can't be found. It's that the NOPD won't put in the work to find them.

They've had a strong feeling that this case has been headed nowhere for some time now. But despite the family's frustration with what they feel is a stalled in-opid investigation, we've still learned a lot thus far. We've heard the body came footage of police talking with Justin the day Jessica went missing. We've shared loads of text messages and correspondence

between Justin and those close to Jessica. We've gone over all the reports we've obtained from the NOPD, the coroner's office, and the family discovering that a toxicology screening found meth in Jessica's system, and then an autopsy report indicated both pre and post-mortem injuries to her body. Then in February 2021, the coroner released the following statement regarding Jessica's death. Advanced changes of decomposition

can make determination of cause and manner of death difficult as it did in this case. Due to this decomposition, toxicology testing was limited to liver tissue, which did test positive for methamphetamine and bupropion. However, it is unclear these results reflect recent intake and a drug-related death cannot be ruled out.

The coroner of course listed Jessica's cause and manner of death as undetermined. Her husband Justin believes she died by suicide, and we have a good idea where her family and friends stand. Like I said, we've learned a lot up to this point, but there are still some key elements we don't know. Where does the case currently stand? Who's investigating it? And where does the investigation go from here? When re-examining a case like Jessica's requesting access to the case file is one of the first steps in the investigative process. And we've put in our fair share of requests.

But the NOPD only granted us access to the initial Missing Persons report and the report filed when she was found. All other items in the case file were denied, citing that it was an open case. Quote, they relate to pending or reasonable anticipated criminal litigation. If we're going to obtain any more case-related information as to why Jessica's case has stalled, it won't be from the files. We'll have to start asking around in New Orleans. Back in May, 2021, Todd and I decided to start at the best place we could think of.

The New Orleans Corners Office, also known as the Orleans Parish Corner, to see what information we could get from them. This is the same corner's office who performed Jessica's autopsy. We're hoping to find out more answers about what they learned and gain a better understanding of where a case like Jessica goes once the corner's process is complete. We park in the visitor lot of a large tan brick building positioned beside a busy road. As traffic steadily passes by, we make our way up to an entrance with double glass doors. The doors are locked, but there's an intercom call box to my right. I push the button.

No answer. I drive the button. No answer. I drive few more times. Nothing. We call in after hours number listed on the door. And the woman answers. Go call the police and help me. Help me. Hi, is your office open?

Uh, what would be the reason for you to hit? We're here to inquire about the past case. Jessica, Durning, D-U-R-N-I-N-G. All right, so there's a moment. We're actually out front, we didn't know, like if we could come in to speak with some undernights. I would have to find out what would be on the way and if the on-set the on-do-the-investigator just to be seen called and you're not there. We're actually just trying to see if the coroner's office and the investigator is still looking at it

or if it's been kind of closed with the coroner's office and moved on to the police department. Yes, once the office is the report has been completed, the coroner's office is complete with their investigation. We only handle the remains so it would be on to the police at this time. Okay, perfect. Is there a way to see if it was turned over to the homicide unit or district detectives? That would be a question for the police department. Is there an investigator on duty that can just explain that process to us just so that we have it recorded as this is how it happens and this is how it goes.

What actually happens is once the case is closed and if there is an officer that's handling that case who reported that, there would most times check back with the coloners officer to see when that autopsy report is available for request. It would come in to collect it and then they themselves would move forward with either going close on to investigate it or closing the case on their end. Okay. Those will be questions for the police department. Okay, so at this point, the coroner's duties with it are completely over.

Correct. Yes, ma'am. Alright. And if a case is left like cause of death undetermined and then the police get new information they think would change that. Do they then come back to your office through an investigator or directly directly to an ME to the right to the ME. Yep, it would be to the pathologist or probably the chief pathologist.

Which is most times it is with the pathologist that perform that autopsy. Okay. All right, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. You're welcome. Thanks. You're OK. Bye-bye.

While we didn't get all of our questions answered, it's a start. We now know officially that the coroner's office is no longer investigating Jessica's case, at least until the police give them more information or evidence to work with. So, on that note, we headed over to the InnoPD's District 3 to see what they could tell us about their investigation. Parking in the back of the large police campus, we walk over to the side visitors door.

While dodging the rain, we press the button for the inner comp. We're standing under a metal awning that guide you off to the right spot or everything. Okay. So we're working. After a brief wait, a towering man in uniform pushes through the double doors and greets us. This is our conversation with Lieutenant Ernest Luster, who heads up the N.O.P.D.'s Third District Investigative Division, or DIU. This audio is from Body Camp footage we received

via public records request. Hello, Mom. I'm Lieutenant Larson, and I was police hired, John. Hello, how are you? I'm very good. All right. How can we help you? Okay, so my name is Jessica Noel. Mm-hmm.

And he is a retired detective. I am an investigative journalist. We're working on a story about a case Jessica is really turning. Okay. And we were told that you might be the head of the unit that is looking at that. What we're interested in is we're not familiar with New Orleans investigations police department. We wanna kind of show how it goes from the scene of where her body was found,

to the corner, to the police, and where that goes to investigation. Yeah, the process and procedure of that. All right, so how that works is, so that's a determined by the coroner's office. Right. So for example, when a body is found, if there's no determinant cause of how that person may have died, we have to get that disposition from the coroner's office.

That makes the determination of where the case is assigned. So if the case is, if the colonel classifies the case as a homicide, where they were killed by whether it was run for a trauma, whether it was shooting, whether they were strangled or whatever, whatever disposition that the coloner gives to us, then that makes the determination as to where the case comes. So if it's a homicide,

then the case will be assigned to the homicides vision to do a follow-up investigation. If the case is unclassified, which is where this case is now, then we have to wait for the colonists to tell us what led to this person's demise or death. If it was drug overdose, natural causes, help related, and the case stays with us until we get that disposition from the court. Right now, her case is with us because the coroner hasn't given us any information to determine a cause of death. All at this point, all they told us is that she's had some form of narcotic illness.

But they haven't given classified the case as the house she died. Until he gives us that, the case is right now is left in limbo until we can move forward. Because we can't move without that forensic evidence. Right. Because when I signed into homicide Right, because we're not saying it's a homicide detective,

if it's not yet classified as a homicide. Correct. So it's under the hood. So it's under the hood. Yeah. Detectives that are assigned to the district, like this is third district. We work all robberies.

We work shootings where a person didn't die. We investigate aggravated assaults, simple robberies, deaths, car thefts, armed robbers and so forth. Any type of homicide goes directly to the homicide division. Whether it be a drug overdose or the person was poisoned, whether it was shot, stabbed, however, the demise happened by the hands of someone else that goes to the homicide division and sets it out. When it's given to us, we have to wait until we hear from the coroner's office.

If they say, hey, look, we found out this is how it occurred, then we can talk to homicide and say, hey, look, we have to find a disposition from the coroner. And this case is given to you all to get a vestibular. Just a quick pause here to remind you that a homicide detective was on the scene when Jessica's body was found. But since then, her cases moved off the homicide investigation division's workload because of the undetermined classification from the corner.

It's not as I can usually respond amongst you, that's because it's theirs until we decide it's not. It depends on the scene itself. It depends on the scene, so it looks unnatural. If it's something that appears to be flower play, and they're gonna show up. If it's something where let's say, yeah, and I'm just using this as an example, let's say it's an elderly person

who was in a hospice environment, and it had a number of medical issues, and it was found unresponsive in their bed, and then I'm gonna show up for that, because most likely that may be help related. However, if it's something, if the officer gets out on the scene and he said, well, well, this doesn't look like there was a sound struggle, and this person appears to be in an unconventional position, then homicide is going to come out and make that scene because there may be more to it than what was a paragraph. We get caused in the manner of that, and determined, for the coroner's office. And it drops from homicide standards and then out to the BIO, which district

detected it? It's considered unclassified. So an unclassified debt leaves us in limbo because we're not allowed to make any movements regarding the case because we don't have a determinant cause of death. So no one here would be like trying to go out and find more information to fill in holes in what happens. Because it's a forensics case. Whereas now the detectives have interviewed.

They have interviewed Mr. Durin, be elected not to be interviewed and have more without attorney. They've interviewed the family. They've given information to the family, regarding this case. However, we're in a limbo phase until the coroner's saying, hey, this is how she died.

This is what this is what this is what this is what this is what this is. We need to be taken. Luster keeps using the word limbo to describe the status of this case. Typically, you'd hear a case is either open or closed, but to Luster, it sounds like Jessica's case is falling somewhere in the middle. Regardless, he's made it clear that they're waiting on the corner to give a more definitive cause and manner of death.

But if you remember, the corner's office told us basically the same thing that they're waiting on the corner to give a more definitive cause and manner of death. But if you remember, the coroner's office told us basically the same thing, that they're waiting on the NOPD for more information. So which is it? So I will say we selected the coroner's office. I mean, to be blunt, they put it on the police department. They said our investigation's done with this. They need to come to us with more evidence to change the cause of manner.

Yeah but we have not the order to go with. Right. You see what I'm saying? So what kind of stuff too? Because we don't have any more information that we could provide unless the family can say hey this is what this is what else we have. Yeah. And we take that information and then we bring it to the corner and say, hey, look, this is what they found. What can you tell us? So if you have the right tip or lead to come in. If we had, yeah, exactly.

That's what all cases are. You're not just nor that. We never would. We would always pursue it. Anytime we would see crime stopper steps, anytime we see phone calls that will give us a solid lead, because we want to solve the case. The Norse believes once the solve the case.

We want to give the family justice if there's some file play here. We want to see people who are victims of crime, you know, bring closure to whatever case that they're victims of, or if the families have some questions, we want those questions as well. So we would never ignore that kind of stuff. We find with overdoses for instance, or when drug levels are found in the body, and you do have a period of time before the body's found several days a week or so, that is hard to determine if the coroner's officer is a medical examiner if it was an overdose or not because the

levels reduce. I honestly I couldn't ask that. That's something that they would have to give me for riskically because we you know our job as an investigators to let them tell us listen you believe that this person was, we've had cases where people were given drugs and OD and we've charged the person who gave out the drugs based on the level of evidence we had and the interviews based on the statements that were made. The person said, yeah, we were outpawting and I handed her this. And she took it and she died. They got charged for negligence. All right. In this case, we don't have that. We we we we had a body reported

phone. We we hope that the coroner would give us something to bring clarity to that case. So that way, we can effectively investigate it without any obstacles in our way. As we continue speaking with Luster, he doubles back to the idea of a potential drug overdose. He says, for example, if we knew how Jessica got the drugs, or if she willingly took them, maybe we'd have a different story here, but we don't know. All we know in Jessica's case is that she had drugs in her system and Lester says that doesn't help as far as an investigation goes. Until they give us clarity and say, hey, this person's killed or this person died as a

son of a rule, that was pretty much left in the number. Would you consider it a code case? I mean, right now, until we can get more evidence to prove otherwise, I would classify it as that now. Because we cannot, of course, create evidence. We have to get something solid that we can convict to give us, you know, probably a cause. New status cases? Are you, is that part of your job? No, well, my know, probable cost. New status cases?

Is that part of your job? No, well, my part, my job is I supervise, supervise, to give classification to the kids. So, this case is not considered code, it's still open. Is there a creative time, if known, new leads or information come in, where a case like this would be reclassified from open to closed or to spare it. It would never be closed. So it could be open to come in our country. A murder is open

until we solve it. Even if it happens, if we find out something 200 years from now, if we get evidence, and we've had cold cases, in fact, there was a cold case that just recently got open in another parish where they found out a guy from B&A evidence from 1998 that stabbed him and they were arrested because they had the B&A evidence approved of it. But it was a 20 year old case, but he was charged with fire. So as the fire's out of the prison and as far as our department is concerned, those cases stay open until we can solve.

So you want tips to come in from anywhere. We want information. Yes, oh yes indeed. That's not the most of our clients. And no matter what they are, the community is a big part. The family is a big part. The acquaintances, the friends, whatever information they can provide for us, we take that information so that we can use it

and try to develop a belief. Station Alex? Yes, it really does. And trust me, New Orleans Police is passionate about bringing families justice and bringing cases, given families closure in all cases. We had hoped to find out who was investigating Jessica's case, but the disturbing answer we found was no one is. If what the lieutenant is telling us is, in fact, NOPD procedure, then the NOPD is waiting

on the corner to classify it as a homicide in order to investigate it as such. But at the same time, the corner is waiting on the NOPD to give them more evidence to change the manner of death, leaving it just as he states, in limbo. Metrolinx and crosslinx are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert, this trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals, be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. Business notifications out of hand, Thrive Command Center keeps your customer emails,

texts, and social messages all in one place so you never miss a message. Small business runs better on Thrive. Get it free today at thriveth THRYV.ca. Terms and conditions apply free plans have limited functionality. I didn't understand that people go missing this way. It's a very odd thing. You have no idea what it's like to lose a human being on your watch. Gary DeVore was an A-list screenwriter who disappeared without a trace in 1997. I had the biggest action stars in Hollywood searching for my husband. But nobody really knows what happened. We try to find out on witnessed Vade de Black,

available now wherever you get your podcasts. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. In the law enforcement and medical world, there's an acronym that perfectly describes Jessica's case, CUPI, which stands for circumstances, undetermined pending police investigation. So what happens when two investigative agencies in charge of the case, both claim they are waiting on the other to move forward? Well, as Todd and I have learned, nothing happens, which is why Jessica's case has been in a perpetual stalemate. Jessica's case isn't officially classified as cold yet, but without tips and leads, it is growing colder by the minute. To the NOPD, it's considered unclassified. To the corner, it's considered undetermined.

But some see it as an opportunity for a second look. Dr. Kimberly Massnick, who you may remember from our analysis of Jessica's autopsy, is the director and founder of a co-case investigations institute in Florida. She tells me they were hand in hand with the detectives on each of those cases, and she was able to give us some perspective on what would need to happen in order for this case to move forward. Undetermined, it's kind of, I want to call it a placeholder. I like that it's there because it gives us the opportunity to pull Jessica off the shelf and look at this case again because in 40 years, who knows what's going to change in science.

If that said anything other than that, that case would be closed. And then I wouldn't have the opportunity to be able to pull it off the shelf 10, 20, 30 years from now. So having watched many interviews with their her sister, that sister's not going away. As long as it says, undetermined, we can keep it on the shelf and we can work it. We can pull it off and dust it off and call it not cold at any point in time. Basically if there's one good thing about an undetermined classification it's that it does leave the door open for the case to be worked and possibly even solved. But how do you make a change in classification happen?

Dr. Masnick says for starters the NOPD should be working in classification happen? Dr. Massnik says, for starters, the NOPD should be working in tandem with the corner. If you don't ask the corner to specifically test for something, that test does not get done because that corner or that medical examiner is relying on you, the officer, to give them as much information as possible so that they know how to do their job to the best of their ability.

This case stands out to me as one that definitely needs to be re-examined. for whatever reason it wasn't followed through the first time by multiple agencies that should or could have done things. So it's not just a law enforcement thing, it's not just a medical examiner thing, it's a bunch of people things. So that jumps out at me as this case definitely needs to be looked at because it's potentially a very solvable case given the right circumstance. Dr. Maznick has a good point. There is potential for Jessica's case to be solved, but at the end of the day, based on what we've heard so far from the corner and law enforcement, more information is needed. For now, this case is a copy.

No rest have been made. No persons of interest or suspects have been named publicly. And although Jessica's body has been laid to rest, there's no closure if there's even such a thing as closure for families like Jessica and no justice. That does not sit well with Audrey or the rest of Jessica's loved ones. Again, they've recognized the stagnancy of this investigation for a while. So the fact that Jessica's case is in limbo is no surprise to them. Audrey says, she's felt like this has been the norm ever since the corner was working with

the family to try and identify Jessica's body, which is why she's felt that she's needed to take things into her own hands. Like Dr. Masnik said, she's not going away, and as it turns out, she isn't going quietly either. After returning briefly to the Lakeview neighborhood to plaster signs to every pole she could find and ask anyone who knows anything to call cramp stoppers and the NOPD, Audrey took to the loudest public platform she could find. She started sharing everything she could about her sister's case on social media. And people have taken notice.

Like the lieutenant said, it's going to take a village to solve Jessica's case. And her family was about to get some new information from a couple in that village, who stumbled upon something in the same spot where Jessica was discovered seven months earlier. We were walking the dog, we're heading towards City Park, and we were going between the railroad and that security building. I spot that idea on the ground. I picked it up and I walk over to her and I show it to her and she says oh that's a woman who was killed. Undetermined is a production of Resonate Recordings and Tenderfoot TV in conjunction with Caden's 13, written and hosted by me, Jessica Hohl, and produced by Dennis Cooper and Todd McComas,

with additional production by Whitney Bozarth. Executive producers for Dennis Cooper, Mark Minery, Jacob Bozar, Donald Albright, and Pain Lindsay. Our senior producer is John Street, editing, mixing, mastering, and sound design by Caleb Melcher, Dayton Cole, and Pat Kicklider of the Resonate Recordings team. If you have a podcast or are looking to start one, check us out at ResonateRecordings.com. Our theme song and original score is by Dirtcore Robbins with additional scoring by Dayton Cole. Our cover art is by station 16. You can follow undetermined podcast on Facebook and on Twitter at undetermined

pod. Show notes as well as bonus content can be found on our Twitter at undetermined pod. Show notes as well as bonus content can be found on our website undeterminedpod.com. If you enjoyed this episode, please take time to subscribe, rate, and review. Your feedback is greatly appreciated. And finally, if you have any information about this case, call Crime Stoppers at 1-877-903-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877-877 call Crime Stoppers at 1-877-903-7867. You can't imagine what it's like until you're actually there. My heart weight went from zero to 100. You're here to the automatic weapons fire outside a Drenel and rushes through your body and you do what you've been trained to do He gets maybe 40 feet and he collapses You better have that pit near stomach once you commit it's game on we started going down the road and then I hear this

Bravery, valor, determination, these are the stories of our heroes like you've never heard them before. It felt like somebody had hit me with a baseball bat and a lower back. I opened up my eyes and I looked at him and he was like,

I thought you were dead, son. And I was like, I did too. A new podcast from Tenderfoot TV and Telegraph Creative. I'm Remy Anilake, former Navy SEAL. And this is Downrange. Downrange is available now. Listen for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.