Undetermined - Vivianne and Lance | 5

Episode Date: January 3, 2023

Jessica and Justin had a secret life. And a few months before Jessica disappeared, the couple has a rendezvous in their home with another couple from Florida. But it quickly goes south. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I don't even know how to explain it. Hidden in the redwoods of the Pacific Northwest, Hupa Valley grapples with a crisis. A series of unsolved disappearances spanning decades. And we've been hearing about a lot of them. I've been following your new season about Ashley Lourdes. I'm sure you may have been contacted regarding the name of Alia Heavy Runner.

Many of the missing and murdered are indigenous persons. And we wondered, what factors make this tribal land a place where people just vanish? So we started looking into it. People seem to be very hesitant to come forward because they're scared for their own safety. You don't know if she was trafficked. You don't know if she is murdered. What's even more crazy is that person who ever did it is probably someone we all know

here. From Tenderfoot TV, I'm Celicia Stanton, and this is the vanishing point, an up and vanish series. Available now, listen for free on Apple Podcasts. Hey listeners, Jessica here. Be sure to check out new episodes of Undetermined

every Tuesday for free, wherever you get your podcasts. For early and ad-free listening, check out Tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals interviewed and participating in the show and do not represent those of Tenderfoot TV and resonate recordings. All individuals described or mentioned in the podcast should be considered innocent until found guilty in a court of law. This podcast contains subject matter, such as violence and graphic descriptions, which may not be

suitable for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised. She told me about it to some degree before they came to stay in my home. I never really investigated it. I never really asked her more about it. He is a very pushy person. Like, around a person like that, you hesitate to wait into any conversation. Much less something you're not interested in.

I think she was under a lot of pressure to bring money in and to provide, but at the same time not a lot of the leave. Because I think it's part of what held her in place after she was ready to leave, is she had this dirty secret. We all have our secrets, right? The things that only a select few know about, or that we keep tucked away for no one to ever see or know. Most of us are fortunate enough to be in control of our secrets, our narrative. For a long time, that's what Jessica did. She had her secrets, and for various reasons,

she kept them to herself. But near the end of her life, she started to open up a little, namely, with Maria, who first heard about Jessica and Justin's not-so-side hustle while they were staying at her home for Thanksgiving in 2018. When she first started telling me about it, I just thought they were bored. I thought they were a couple in their 40s. Maybe the spark was gone. They spend too much time together, so maybe they were just trying to spice things up. I was like, you know, whatever, do you, that's entertaining to you.

I didn't know that it was really for the income, the way I think it turned out to be. So even when they were in my home, I never knew their stage names. I don't know if you call it a stage name online, their online names. I never knew their alter egos. And at one point she was sitting on her on my couch and she was like, see look, these people are tipping and she was like looking at some app, apparently

it's very user friendly. And there were like little coins floating across the screen, the same way people do likes or hearts or whatever when somebody's like doing a live stream on Facebook. So these little coins are floating across the screen and she was like, see he's tipping them. I was like, okay, well, how much is that little tip worth? She was like, oh, that's like five cents. I remember us joking back and forth and I was like, I wonder if I could just put my feet on there. Like, while I'm doing my files, if some weirdo wants to look at my feet and send me some money,

like I could be okay with that. Like that's not too risky. And my face had never been involved. I was like, I wonder if somebody wants to pay me for my feet. But, they're like, I mean, if you want to be a weirdo about my feet, like knock yourself out,

like here's my finmo. You know, but the conversation never really got any further than that. This really, I'm not trying to put minority bits on the internet and perpetuity from a grandkids to look like, nah, Nana. While Maria was able to keep it all light-hearted, even joking about it, learning that Jessica was performing sex shows online for money was a pretty startling peak into her life with

Justin. for money was a pretty startling peak into her life with Justin, and it was certainly a new revelation to her family. But Maria thinks it was more about control. I think that she would have done anything that he wanted her to do because she really just wanted to make him happy. I'm not going to completely alleviate her of all responsibility because you know she wasn't an adult. So it's possible that she wanted to experiment with the sexual stuff that they were doing online. It's possible that she wanted to

experiment with drugs, but that was not at all the Jessica that I knew growing up. The Jessica that I knew growing up was the sort of girl that was comfortable wearing a strand of pearls and an updo because we worked in the casino industry together when people would get into like salacious or scandalous situations. She'd be like, we are Southern ladies like you do not do that. So it was a huge departure from who I knew her to be. She was a shadow of her former self. Metrolinx and cross links are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Cross-town LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert, this trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals.

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Sarah, the contractor's here with the plans. American Express, don't do business without it. Terms and conditions apply as at mx.ca slash business platinum. In addition, as an MX.ca slash business platinum. To friends and family, Jessica may have become somewhat of a shadow of herself, but she was still Jessica. The girl they'd known and loved from most of her life, well before the camming. But to a whole community online, she was known as Vivian, and her partner was Lance.

These were Jessica and Justin's camming names. So, what exactly is camming? Well, it's different for everyone, but me and my wife specifically, we just go on camera and people pay us for our time. So if we're camming for an hour for a specific person, then we request a specific dollar amount per minute, and that's how we get paid.

People are viewing us on the screen. We have a camera in front of us. This hooked up to the computer and it's live. So everything we do is live. This is Ken. Well, that's his camming name alongside his wife, Barbie. Yeah, Ken and Barbie. I am Ken and my wife is Barbie and we met Justin and Jessica through the

Canning Community. In fact, as far as we know, they are the only cameras to have ever met up with Vivian and Lance inside their home and saw them together as a couple. But it's an experience they regretted almost from the start. More on that in just a minute. The young couple got into camping after he lost his other online fortune. I made a pretty hefty fortune on Bitcoin when I was in high school and being young and having a decent fortune you don't really know how to spend it. So me and my wife

we dug ourselves in a hole living in Miami. We needed something to keep us going and keep us alive and off the streets. So we chose to start canning and it worked out really well for us. So we just stuck with that and it worked out really well for us. So we just stuck with it ever since. We really enjoyed the job because we could spend all of our time together. Not one of us is having the lead to the house, go to work and things like that. So it works for us. So you know, immediately a bunch of camp people started reaching out to us like, oh wow,

you're going to do so good at this. You're going to be able to retire by the time you're 30 blah blah blah and you know just like Trying to flatter us trying to get close to us and we thought that was normal and It turns out that for the most part that a lot of them were trying to use us Because we were naive to the canning community and how it works So people were trying to get us because we were naive to the caring community and how it works. So people were trying to get us to help them in different ways. And it just seemed to us like everyone's out for themselves and trying to like make their end of the deal better. Me and my wife, we kind of stay in our own little bubble.

We don't really talk to anyone else. Ken says that while there is a darker side to the Camming community, he and Barbie stay away from that. It's kind of how the community works. You only do what you feel comfortable with. I mean, every single person out there has a different experience coming. One experience is not the same as another. Some people have really bad experiences coming. And some people have really good experiences coming. There's definitely some bad stigma about the sex industry. For what is worth, I'm sure a lot of it's true.

I'm not denying that, but that's why we stick to Cammy because we get to create our rules and boundaries, so if anyone steps over those boundaries, we can put it into it by a click of a button. If we feel offended or threatened in some way, then all we got to do is hit the block button and they just fear. We do this together and only together. We don't talk to any other cameras. We don't post on social media really ever. We just realized that it's best to stay in your own little bubble and not try to get too far out there and meet too many people because so far all the people that we've met they've ended in like really crazy experiences. One of those crazy experiences for Ken and Barbie was meeting Vivian and Lance at their home in New Orleans. When we sat down with Ken, he shared his personal experience and opinions from that in-person meeting.

From here on out in this episode, we'll go back to referring to them as Jessica and Justin. They were trying to get close to us early on because they knew that we would be successful at this job and from the very beginning things turned out really well for us. We didn't really have to worry about money or anything like that. And they just kind of reached out to us. And then they started to call more and try to reach out to us more. They were really, really easy to get along with. Mostly her Jessica.

She was really easy to get along with. She just kind of reeled us in and gave us someone to talk to that was in the industry, we're new to it, we didn't know anything. So if we had any kind of questions, they would help us out with that. And we just talked to them, I don't know, I'd say maybe once or twice a month, she would call. As that went on, they started feeling closer to us and whatnot. So I guess they felt comfortable asking us for money. Here and there, they'd ask us for like a hundred bucks. And we didn't know what their situation was. And I'm too nice sometimes if people need help I'm usually willing to help so whenever they would ask me for money I just did it and I

didn't think anything of it I knew they had a daughter and I knew that they probably weren't doing that well I don't remember them telling us that they had a job so Camming was how they're making money and every single time they're canned, they weren't really doing that well. That kind of made a sad. So yeah, we would help every now and then and I don't regret it. It's whatever. I just wish I would have known then better before we really got involved with their life. and then better before we really got involved with their life. But their meetup wasn't really something they had planned. It was just by happenstance.

They driven to Pensacola, Florida to meet with a friend of Barbies, but the friend never showed. We were like, what the heck? We drove all the way down here. So what could we do to make it a trip that's not wasted and we remembered that Jessica and Justin they lived in New Orleans and that was just a little bit farther so we called them up and we asked them if it'd be cool if we came down to hang out. Before they even arrive at

Jessica and Justin's house they see their first red flag. We were basically asking them if it was cool if we come by and that's whenever they started texting us and then they randomly texted us a pipe and I didn't know if there's a crack pipe or a meth pipe. I don't know the difference if there is a difference or what but they sent me a pipe that looked like you smoked drugs out of it. And when they did that, we were like, what is this? I was like, you're joking.

I asked them if they were joking and they were like, they would send me like an emoji, a laughy emoji or an LOL or something and be like, yeah, we're just messing with you. We were skeptical, but then they said that they were joking and we just took it for what it was. Like, we thought that they were joking. If we were texting someone, we didn't know if it was just in Ordraska. We had no idea. And I'm pretty sure sometimes she would act like her whenever he's texting us. Like sometimes we would detect her and we're like, this feels like it's just it texting us right now.

We didn't think anything of that until we met them and then we saw how he was. It all happened so gradually, it's like they just real disin. When Ken and Barbie pull into the driveway at their Lakeview home, everything seems fine at first. Everything's cool at first. He kind of looks like he's cracked out, which we thought was weird at first, but then we kind of just blew it off because we didn't want to be man or we just didn't want to make a scene or make them feel uncomfortable. Justin's demeanor is something can remember vividly.

He looked like he was on some kind of drug that was like speed, like it was making him talk really fast and like make really weird movements and stuff and We didn't know if that was just his personality or if he was on drugs. We didn't know He told us that he took Adderall prescribed Adderall So we didn't know if there's that either but anyway we came into this whole situation non-judgmental. We just like, this is our first time meeting him. We just wanted to meet him and we didn't want to make a big deal out of it.

Canembarby quickly realize they're not the only other ones in the house. Soon, they'd meet Justin's daughter, and notice that his elderly father was there too, though they never spoke. He was always in the other room with the lights off. You could just see him through the doorway. That's another reason why he's sketchy. Like, he never introduced himself to me. He never spoke a word to me.

Justin said the whole time I could just ignore him. Don't talk to him. I just thought it was the weirdest thing. As the visit continues, their concerns for Jessica begin to fester. We were most scared for her. It's like she's stuck here with these crazy people. I just don't understand. I don't understand how she's at that house. Kins growing impression of Justin kept signaling to him that something was just off about this whole thing.

He tried to sell me a gun. He shoved me a bunch of pictures on his phone and he was like, I can get you one of these. You just send me $3,000 cash and I'll get you one. He's trying to make money. I don't even know if he has real guns or if he's just showing people pictures on his phone trying to make a quick dollar. I don't know. They'd say this. These should be in the Marines. Whenever he was showing me guns, that's where I thought he had guns from was being in the military. And I didn't ask to see them because I didn't care about them.

He offered to buy me a gun or sell me a gun. And I was like, I'm good. And you just had a lot of sketchy things. This NBA season make every three-pointer alley-oop and buzzer-beater even more exciting with FanDuel. Download the app today to see why we're North America's number one sportsbook. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Kamlin Tom call 18665-212-600 or visit connectcentario.ca. I didn't understand that people go missing this way. over the Connects Ontario that's here. The most pissed action stars in Hollywood searching for my husband. But nobody really knows what happened.

We try to find out on witness Vade de Black, available now wherever you get your podcasts. Pushing past the awkward shit chat and gun paddling, the two couples tried to make the most out of the visit and do what they do, cam. But that turned out to be kind of a bust, too. We planned to do a cam show. They had like a big bathtub. It was kind of like a hot tub. It was a work thing.

And it just wasn't going well, Jessica. She seemed uncomfortable. It just wasn't working and we just kind of hung out and talked some more until nighttime came. But as night fell, things took a turn. Justin, he pulls out math and they both start smoking it and they try to get us to smoke it and we're like no, we don't want to smoke it. So we're just kind of awkward. We're not very comfortable with the situation. They had a little container I've never seen meth before. I don't know the quantity of what it was. They had this little contact lens and it was full of it.

It just kind of gets kind of weird. We don't want to, like, say that we want to leave. We were too nice. So we just kind of stuck around while they didn't that. They were okay at first. I mean, they were like the same. They were just a little up, you know. They're nervous and everything. They were just up in, like were like the same. They were just a little up, you know. They're nervous and everything.

They were just up in like full of energy. And in no time at all, the shit hits the fan. They just start out of nowhere. They like start yelling at each other. And I don't know what it has to do with. They were whispering and stuff before they start really yelling at each other. And I don't know what it has to do with, there were whisper and stuff before they started really yelling at each other. And we thought that we could basically be a mediator,

but make the situation calm down a bit. And like throughout what's going on and why they're so upset. So we're like, hey, what's going on? And I have to like really get in there and be like, okay, hey, how about we separate and Jessica goes in her car and Justin stays in the room and I start talking to Justin my wife goes and talks to Jessica and Justin

Is all over the place like I have to tell time I can't even understand what he's saying, but he's calling her all kinds of names and he's saying that he's gonna do stuff to her. And I'm like, what the fuck is going on here? He was calling her a bitch and a whore and stuff like that and he was gonna beater and just, you know, really violent stuff. He was out of his mind at that moment.

He was mad because Jessica said that she wanted to have sex with me. And I was like, okay, that makes sense while you're mad. Then I go to the car and I'm like, okay, so what's going on? And Jessica just seems scared. You know, she just seems like she's scared. She doesn't want to talk to him. She doesn't want to see him. She's sitting in the car crying,

just saying that she's just scared. And we felt bad for her. At that point, we go back inside. I tell Justin, I'm like, okay, Jessica's gonna come back in here. But you have to stop yelling and you have to stop being so violent. And he was like, okay, right whenever Jessica walks to the door, he starts screaming in the elegant. And we're like, what the heck?

This is exactly the opposite of what you said you were gonna do so things weren't working out I tried one last time to like tell him that he needs to calm down and he freaked out on me he said if you don't shut the fuck up then I'm gonna splattered your head against the wall he threatened to bash my head into the wall. And at that moment, I was genuinely scared. He was a way bigger guy than me, and it just got in the pad of control. I don't know how far he was willing to go, or if he was actually going to hurt me. So at that moment, we were like, okay, we're gonna grab our bags and we're gonna go.

But before they left, the couple tried to help a hysterical, inconsolable Jessica. Jessica, she follows us to the door and she was like crying, she's sobbing, she's like, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. And then we were like, okay, listen, Jessica. We're going to a hotel. If you want to come with us, you can't just hop in the car with us. And she was like, I can't, I can't, I can't go. And we were like, listen, you need to come in the car with us and we're gonna go to a hotel for a couple days. It's not a big deal. You just need to get away from her. And she didn't listen. She was scared that he was going to do something more. I'm sure in that little sliver of time that we spent with them, we saw how violent he could get. And we figured that it wasn't going to end well just because of that experience It was just the weirdest weekend we've ever had

After we left and went back home they called us like a week later and It was really just him apologizing and saying sorry Like over and over again and we basically just let them know that we don't want to speak to them ever again We told them to stop calling us and I think that was the most blunt and we basically just let them know that we don't want to speak to them ever again. We told them to stop calling us, and I think that was the most blunt we ever were with them. It was easier not having to be faced-to-face with them, just to be able to tell them over the phone. But they listened, they didn't call us ever again.

This all happened just a few months before Jessica vanished. The unsettling experience has stuck with Ken and Barbie. They've thought about it ever since they left that day. But when they caught wind, the Jessica was found dead. That's when they really started having thoughts. We think that Jessica had her good heart and we think she was a good person and she was a pleasure to be around. Justin on the other hand was not. What I think what happened was Jessica might have came to her senses and was like okay I got to get away from this guy.

No matter the theories about what happened to Jessica, the fact remained. She was gone. What was left were her remains, which had been released to Justin as her next of Ken, though he hadn't claimed them. Instead, he took to the internet to try and raise money for a funeral, one that Jessica's family had already offered to take care of. He created two separate GoFundMe accounts, one under her legal name, Jessica, the other under her Kimming name, Vivian, offering various items in return for donations, shoes, lingerie, even photos.

He was sitting there selling her image, and then we tried to get all that stuff shut down and the cops said that they would look into it, but they never did. They never did anything. It was us that got that all shut down. And there must have been like seven or eight porn sites. I ended up getting on Twitter in January and I put my story out there about Jessica and I had at least 30 inbox messages saying to me, what do you mean she died in August? He's been telling us in November. Like no, August. Everyone he was following, I went on his thing and I just started following all the people and I started

attacking him. So that what they would see my sister's story. It was just a mess. It was just, it was chaotic. He was sitting there. It's like he didn't even have a care. Like he didn't even care about Jessica. The Camming community was incensed and they rallied, finding ways to shut down as many of his online accounts as possible, which seemed to stop him in his tracks. And while Jessica sat alone inside the coroner's office,

unclaimed, her family couldn't get the one thing they wanted the most. Jessica, to make matters worse, they were also lacking answers about what happened to her. A quick visit from Todd Knight, the New Orleans police department, wouldn't lend any assurance as to where their investigation was headed. It's considered unclassified.

So an unclassified debt leaves us in limbo because we're not allowed to make any movements regarding the case because we don't have a determinant cause of death. So no one here would be like trying to find more information to fill in holes in what happened. Because it's a forensic case. Undetermined is a production of resonate recordings and tenderfoot TV in conjunction with Kaden's 13, written and hosted by me, Jessica Hoh, and produced by Dennis Cooper and Todd McColas, with additional production by Whitney Bowsarth. Executive producers are Dennis Cooper, Mark Minnery, Jacob Bowsarth, Donald Albright, and Payne Lindsay.

Our senior producer is John Street, editing, mixing, mastering, and sound design by Caleb Melcher, Dayton Cole, and Pat Kicklider of the Resonate Recording team. If you have a podcast or are looking to start one, check us out at ResonateRecording.com. Our theme song and original score is by Dirtcore Robbins with additional scoring by Dayton Cole. Our cover art is by station 16. You can follow undetermined podcast on Facebook and on Twitter at undeterminedpod. Show notes as well as bonus content can be found on our website undeterminedpod.com.

If you enjoyed this episode, please take time to subscribe, rate, and review. Your feedback is greatly appreciated. And finally, if you have any information about this case, call Crime Stoppers at 1-877-903-7867. You can't imagine what it's like until you're actually there. My heart weight went from zero to 100. You're here to automatic weapons fire outside. You can't imagine what it's like until you're actually there. My heart weight went from zero to 100. You're here to automatic weapons fire outside. A adrenaline rushes through your body and you do what you've been trained to do. He gets maybe 40 feet and he collapses.

You better have that pit in your stomach. Once you commit, it's game on. We started going down the road and then I hear this. Bravery. We started going down the road and then I hear this bravery Valor determination These are the stories of our heroes like you've never heard them before It felt like somebody hit me with a baseball bat and a lower back

I opened up my eyes and I looked at him and he was like I Thought you were dead son And he was like, I thought you were dead, son. And I was like, I did too. A new podcast from Tenderfoot TV and Telegraph Creative. I'm Remy Anleike, former Navy SEAL. And this is Downrange. Downrange is available now. This is DownRange.