Up and Vanished - Case Evidence 03.06.17

Episode Date: March 7, 2017

Take a deeper look at the evidence as experts discuss new developments in the case.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Today we'll be discussing everything that's happening right now in the Tara Grinstead case. As we now know, on February 23rd, Ryan Alexander Duke, one of Tara Grinstead's former students, was arrested for her murder. And since then, it's been an absolute media frenzy. And there's been an abundance of new information and different leads to sort through, and not to mention all the rumors. Today we'll be going over what we know, and just try to make sense of everything. This is Case Evidence. Our first guest today is Nancy Grace. Since the last time we spoke, a man has been arrested for Tara Grinstead's murder.

We clearly had some catching up to do. I just want to know, first of all, what was your immediate reaction to all this last Thursday? Well, I got to tell you something. I was taking off on a plane across the country, and I had my head all about my twins. I don't want to leave them. I don't want to go out of town. I don't want to be away from them. And I got a text.

There's an announcement in the Tarrant Grinstead case. And I at first thought, well, they're probably going to say, this is what we've done, and we've done this, and we've done that. Then I got to thinking about it, they're probably going to say this is what we've done and we've done this and we've done that. Then I got to thinking about it. And if that were the case, why would they go to all the trouble to make an announcement that they hadn't found anything? Then I realized something was afoot. And almost within minutes, the word was out that there was an arrest.

And I did not believe at first, I couldn't believe that it was someone that had been under the radar, that his name had never been mentioned. Because, you know, criminal procedure and criminal investigations, you start at the nucleus with the person. You move out from people closest to more distant. And statistically, it's normally someone that knows them. Well, that held true here, Payne. It was someone that knew her, but not anyone necessarily close to her. And I always give the example of a delivery boy or the mailman or someone you know, but yet you don't know. And that's what it was. And that's the crazy thing to me, Nancy. The GBI has charged Ryan Alexander Duke with the

murder of Tara Grinstead. Osceola has a population of around 3,000 people. How did Ryan Duke, how did this guy slip through the cracks? You know, it's pretty amazing how somebody can keep a low profile and stay out of trouble and never be suspected. I mean, a Monday morning quarterback, you'd think they would have gone through every male that had been in her class for, say, the last five, six years, right, before she was taken. But why would they? I mean, and how do you do that? Blanket DNA? We don't have any DNA to really compare it to for sure, except maybe someone that latex glove. We don't have any DNA to really compare it to for sure, except maybe some in that latex glove.

But where do you go? Especially with someone that was so seemingly mild-mannered and unobtrusive as Duke. From everything I've gathered, people I've talked to who knew Ryan Alexander Duke, he was a quiet guy. He was kind of the guy who wasn't very remarkable, didn't really have many characteristics that stood out. He was kind of the guy who was behind the scenes

and kind of just really under the radar in general. So most people were shocked when they learned about his possible involvement here. Very quiet guy, didn't seem very sophisticated or like he would have the skillset to do anything like this and keep a secret for 12 years. You know, the sister, Anita Gaddis, says the farm is one she's driven by hundreds of times while making trips from her home in Hawkinsville to Osceola

that it is hard to imagine investigators are coming through dirt in search for her sister's remains. It's unreal. She's driven by it, you know, probably thousands of times now over the last 12 years. She says if given the chance, she would like to ask Duke one question. Why? Why Tara?

Why did you pick Tara? What do you make of Ryan Duke's charges, particularly the burglary charge and the charge of using his hands to murder Tara? Because I think he may have been unarmed and that he strangled her or hit her. And we don't know that and are not going to know that unless there's a confession or testimony from an accomplice or a witness that he's spoken to because her body is going to be skeletonized, which means we will see no evidence of hematoma such as a bruise. If he had used a knife, there may be a nick in a bone, but that's highly unlikely. You won't see evidence of asphyxiation, be it manual or ligature. You can't look at her eyes to see if the blood vessels have hemorrhaged due to asphyxiation.

So long story short, the only thing they could do is charge with putting his hands on her, even if he used a knife or a blunt object to steal his hands. Also, to effect a kidnap, he had to put his hands on her. Also, as far as the burglary, that goes for any entrance into any structure with the intent to commit a felony,

be it a rape, a theft, a robbery, any felony inside the structure. So if he was unwelcome in her home at all, any felony inside the structure. So if he was unwelcome in her home at all, it's burglary in the state of Georgia. And long story short, I think the reason they charged him with burglary is to have what we call a felony murder. Because without a body or with a skeletonized body, you can't get a COD, cause of death. So how can you get murder?

A death occurring in the commission of a felony. Very simply, if he burglarized the home, she ends up dead. That's felony murder, which gets life behind bars. Bam! They're set up. Yep. So this week, the judge issued a gag order in this case. Can you tell me a little bit about what a gag order is and how it might affect this case?

Yes. Paying a gag order, very simply, is that witnesses in the case, lawyers in the case, the judge in the case, everyone associated to the case may not speak publicly. So that is to keep the jury pool. Well, first of all, they're going to move the venue. There's going to be a change of venue. I can tell you that right now. But if there's not, they want to keep the jury pool pristine from anyone speaking about the case. How does it affect me and you covering this case and investigating this case? And why do you think they posed this here? It doesn't affect us at all.

It only affects people that are connected to the case. So, Nancy, you've been inside Tara's house before. Do you think that there was a struggle inside her home? I do. We've heard over and over there was no sign of a struggle. But the least little thing askew in her home is a sign of struggle because her home was perfect. No fluffed-up pillow was out of place. Everything looked like a little dollhouse. I'm telling you, she had it almost obsessively neat and tidy and

very beautiful. She was a very creative and artistic person. I can tell you that from being in her home. So one thing like a broken alarm clock bedside now on the floor, uh-uh. She wouldn't have left that. It would have driven her crazy. Mm-mm. Nor especially the mud on her car. You know, she would never drive that white. I think it was a Nissan 3000 out in the red clay in Georgia.

Forget it. Her tires were caked with it. Mm-mm. In the GPI's charges against Ryan Alexander Duke, you know, they did say that he used his hands to kill her. How do you think they know this? Did he confess or is there a cooperating witness? I think that Chipster told him, Payne. I think that somewhere along the way, he told somebody what happened and he may have portrayed it as an accident. Because, you know, a lot of times killers do that. They tell it the way they wish it had been. But obviously he's told somebody,

and also with your hands, can include a whole lot of scenarios. If there is a cooperating witness who in fact sent them this information or told them this, would it be like the GBI to offer this person some sort of deal in cooperation? Yeah, if they need to offer the tipster a deal or the person that really provided the information, be it the tipster or third party, I would imagine they will offer them, if they have to, immunity in order to get more information to solidify their case. Otherwise, you know, if they don't need them, don't use them. Prosecute them. So if this witness or someone who was involved in this came forward and gave them this information, would it be possible if his story changes or there turns out to be more people involved for

them to take the immunity away from him? No. Once you grant it, it's done. Now, that immunity may be extended to testifying at trial. And then if they back out at trial, then the deal's off. Gotcha. What happens from here? What should we expect in the next coming weeks and months and really the next year in this case? We're going to know more with each court hearing. I hope that it's not closed to the media. court hearing. I hope that it's not closed to the media. However, this is going to be a long and drawn-out process unless there's a deal to let Duke have a lighter sentence in exchange for

the remains location. Otherwise, it's a DP case, and that's going to take a long time. You got to get DP-qualified defense attorneys. The prosecutor may bring in somebody from the AG's going to take a long time. You've got to get DP qualified defense attorneys. The prosecutor may bring in somebody from the AG's office to help out with the DP aspect of it because it's a very technical, very technical trial. It's not like an ordinary, not that any of them are ordinary, but it's not like your ordinary trial strategy. There's a whole other technique to prosecuting a death penalty case and you may have to bring in a DP expert on both sides.

You know, what's interesting is now that an arrest has been made of a guy that no one suspected, Ryan Alexander Duke, 32. He had graduated from Irwin County High School where Tara taught history

three years before she went missing. But he was there while she was there. And of course, what guy wouldn't have a crush on Tara Grinstead? Beautiful on the outside. She was in many, many beauty pageants. Beautiful on the inside. In fact, people first noticed she was missing when she didn't show up at church Sunday morning. And smart to boot, she was planning to enter a PhD program. Her dream was to become a school principal. So who wouldn't have a crush on her? What guy wouldn't? I doubt pretty seriously if she returned those affections. But listen to what Tara's sister says. It's sad to me what her sister Anita Gaddis says.

She says she has never stopped grieving that the arrest, quote, ripped the scab off wounds that have never totally healed. And it's like it is totally infected now. And when she heard the name, Ryan Alexander Duke, she said, I never heard of him. That's amazing to me that nobody ever suspected him. I mean, his name, nobody knew of his name. He was totally off the radar. Well, one thing is he never got into any trouble, which leads me to wonder what this was all about. Now, reports say it's not clear what the relationship was between Grinstead and Duke.

Well, I can tell you that. She did not have a relationship with him. I'm promising you that, other than he may have been her student or attended the high school while she was teaching there. That's it. I have no doubt they did not have a dating relationship. I agree with you there. I think that there was no sort of relationship like that outside of just being a former student of hers. It makes you wonder though, what was Ryan Duke doing at her house that Saturday night? How does he get there? What was he doing there? Why was he in a position for this to happen? Think of the last time you bought something to wear, something to decorate your house, something for your family or friends. What if each time you

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about your gambling or someone else close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. Since the arrest of Ryan Duke, the man charged with terror grins as murder, there's been many rumors circling around about a possible accomplice, someone who may have helped Ryan cover up this heinous crime.

Well, as it turns out, the rumor mill isn't always wrong. Right after my interview with Nancy this past Friday, the police arrested another former student of Tara's, a man named Bo Dukes. And no, I'm not kidding. His actual name is Bo Dukes. And no, I'm not kidding. His actual name is Bo Dukes, with an S. So we have Ryan Duke and Bo Dukes. I couldn't make this up if I tried. On Friday, March 3rd, Bo Dukes was arrested on three different charges, alleging that he helped

conceal Tara Grinstead's death by disposing of her body out on a pecan orchard in Fitzgerald. Rumors of the second arrest have been swirling around this small town for days. Bo Dukes now faces allegations he helped his high school buddy bury Tara Grinstead's remains back in 2005. 32-year-old Bo Dukes has been arrested by the Bend Hill County Sheriff's Office. Now he has already bonded out, but he is charged with three charges. I'm going to read them off from these documents here. Dukes turned himself in to Bend Hill County authorities Friday morning, accused of helping high school buddy Ryan Duke hide Terry Grinstead's body. Authorities say Grinstead's remains were concealed in this pecan farm at some point during the week after this case has issued a gag order.

This is meant to prevent witnesses and those directly involved in the crime from speaking to the public. This whole thing has gone from a cold missing persons case to a high-profile murder case in a matter of days. To sort through all the different charges for both Ryan and Bo, and to get a clearer picture of what we should expect next, I enlisted the help of a man named Phillip Holloway, a criminal lawyer and expert legal analyst who also happens to be from the Osceola area. My name is Philip Holloway. I practice law in Marietta, Georgia. My office is in Cobb County. I'm a former prosecutor. Before I was a prosecutor, I was a lawyer in the military. In between my military stint and being a prosecutor in the

metro Atlanta area, I actually practiced law in Tifton, which is my hometown. Before I was an attorney, I was in law enforcement. I went to the police academy in 1989, and one of my early jobs was part-time as a police officer in the city of Osceola. I grew up in Tifton. So I know the area. I know a lot of the people that have been involved in this podcast personally. They're all good people, and I don't mean to say anything bad about anybody, but let's just say I understand sort of the dynamic of the way things are. know, several murders over any given weekend, right? And we got people that disappear and they don't generate the public interest that this did. So there's a lot of people who had their reputations damaged, if not ruined early on in this case, maybe rightfully so, maybe not rightfully so, but nevertheless, there's a lot of raw emotion there. There's a lot of hurt feeling there.

There's a lot of pent-up frustration in the community. And so it's going to be a very delicate balancing act for the judicial system to take all of those considerations into account when resolving this case. Okay. Yeah, I can see that for sure. What do you make of Ryan Duke's charges? Ryan Duke's charges really are all over the place. From looking at the various warrants, from aggravated assault to burglary to concealing the death and to the murder charge, I've been looking at these now for a number of days, trying to make sense of how they're worded to try to figure out what we can glean reading between the lines. And I've come to one of two conclusions. They're either purposely worded very poorly in order to keep the details from being known, or someone who is not very well trained swore out these warrants. And I don't believe

that the GBI agent was anything less than well trained. For example, and I'm just going to pull out the burglary warrant, which I have in front of me. Burglary in Georgia is when someone enters into, say, a house with the intention in their own mind at the time they enter or if they remain without authority inside a structure like a home with the intention of committing a felony or theft. So a burglary can be complete, for example, the moment you enter somebody's house. It doesn't mean you have to kick in the door. You can come to my house by invitation, okay? And the minute you enter my house, if you intend to steal my silver, then you've committed a burglar, even though I've invited you in. This burglary warrant does not mention that he entered or remained inside her house

with the intent of committing a crime. It simply mentions that he went in the house and that he did commit a crime. It's possible for the intent to form after he's already inside the home. So burglary warrants and burglary indictments always mention what someone's intention was when they entered the structure, and this one is completely missing. What's an example of a reason that would be missing here? I mean, what's a good reason? Well, a good reason would be disinformation. If you didn't want the public necessarily to know what exactly was going on, it could be a typo. It could be poor police training. If there's more to the story and it was purposely omitted, why would that be in their benefit? Why would they ever do that? That's a very good question and one that I can't figure

out. I've looked at all the warrants. For example, aggravated assault here. This one is also unusual because it simply says that he used his hands in an offensive manner. Well, that's not necessarily aggravated assault. You can use your hands in an offensive manner. Well, that's not necessarily aggravated assault. You can use your hands in an offensive manner by slapping somebody. Aggravated assault has to be an assault combined with the present intention to rape, rob, or kill, or an assault with a deadly weapon, or assault with an object which, when used offensively, is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death. This warrant doesn't say how he used his hands, which are not ordinarily an offensive weapon, like a handgun or a knife would be, or a crowbar either.

So it just simply says he used his hands. It's a conclusory statement. It doesn't provide any details. You typically will see a little bit more detail than what we have here, especially when you're talking about an object that's not normally associated with being an offensive weapon. And there's nothing in these charges that say anything about sexual misconduct or anything like that. It basically just says this was a burglary gone wrong. They seem to suggest that that is a narrative that's being wrong. They seem to suggest that. That is a narrative that's being pushed.

I don't buy it, not for one minute. The murder warrant itself tells me a lot too. It says that he killed her during the commission of a burglary, and that draws us back to the burglary warrant, which alleged that he committed the offense of aggravated assault. Now, keep in mind, there is a version of aggravated assault,

which is an assault with intent to rape. The aggravated assault charge doesn't accuse that. It just says he used his hands in an offensive manner, which is insufficient to make out an aggravated assault charge. Right. So it's kind of circular. It's very legalistic Which is insufficient to make out an aggravated assault charge.

Right. be cleaned up by the grand jury in terms of the indictment, or if they reach some kind of a deal, the language will be cleaned up to be legally sufficient if they bypass the grand jury and proceed on what we call an accusation. These warrants, though, are just not worded properly at all. Even though there are details that are clearly omitted or just lacking. There are some details that are pretty specific. You know, it makes you wonder how they knew some of that information. Where did they get the specifics of using his hands and how would they know that? Well, if Bo Dukes was not present, Bo Dukes does not have any personal information about what happened. The only person who's still alive that we know of that would have personal information, assuming he's guilty, is Ryan Alexander Duke. And this suggests to me that he told them what happened. Now, whether he told them the truth about what happened, we may never know.

He may have minimized his involvement to some degree. He may have simply said this was a burglary that went bad. She came home too soon. Because let's face it, if you're going to go to prison for murder, you might want to have history recall you as just being a bad burglar as opposed to being a monster. So it's common for criminals to minimize themselves, even though they may admit guilt to a crime or most of the crimes, they omit the nastiest part. Oh, absolutely. It happens all the time. We see this in the criminal justice system in many contexts. People will admit to the bare minimum they have to admit to. Sometimes it's because they're embarrassed, they're ashamed, they don't want to cause their family to look bad. They just don't want history to remember them in a certain way.

Well, running with the theory that the police have talked to Ryan Duke and he did admit some of these details, why is he coming forward now? Why, after 12 years, would he feel pressured to say all these details that he's been keeping a secret for so long. He would be the only one that would know that. Yeah. I'm at a loss for why someone this many years later would simply unburden themselves unless they were just somehow overcome with guilt. Maybe they feel like this is something that's been eating at them for a long time. And as they say, the truth shall set you free.

But I don't think if he said anything that he told the entire truth. Right. So let's take a second to talk about Bo Dukes. This Friday, he was arrested on several different charges in connection with Tara's murder. What can you tell me about those? in connection with Tara's murder. What can you tell me about those? Well, these warrants charging Bo Dukes with various offenses all having to do with essentially concealing the death and hiding the body and helping dispose of the body,

they're very specific. They say that this all happened in another county, which in Georgia is actually, in this case, is another judicial circuit. So they're not technically co-defendants without getting too much into the legal weeds. These warrants tell me that if these accusations are true, that Bo did not have any prior involvement with this until everything moved over into Ben Hill County and then the incident at the Pecan Orchard. So it definitely alleges that he participated in destroying any evidence that may be or perhaps her remains. If they found any, I would suggest to you that the warrants imply that they have found remains.

They're pretty clear about that. Right. What's the main differences now with it being different counties? Is there an upside or downside to that if you are the defendant, if you were Bo Dukes? Well, what it means is that in terms of the prosecution of both of these cases, there's going to have to be some coordination between two different district attorneys. The district attorney for Ben Hill County in that circuit was present at the news conference when they announced the arrest of Ryan Duke. So we know that there's some coordination between district attorneys, which is not uncommon,

but crimes have to be prosecuted in the county where they occurred, and they're not alleging that Bo did anything at all over in Irwin County. Georgia does not have any accessory after the fact version of murder. The best they can do is come up with these charges that all have to do with concealing the death, hindering the apprehension of a criminal, and things like that. Bo Dukes, what you can tell from these warrants, he's charged with hindering the apprehension of a criminal, he's charged with tampering with evidence, and he's charged with concealing a death. Concealing a death in and of itself is a 1 to 10 felony, so he could be theoretically facing quite a bit of jail time. So he could be theoretically facing quite a bit of jail time. But because these warrants were not signed by a judge until the day before his arrest,

and since the warrants appear to have set a $5,000 bond on each charge the day before his arrest, signed by a superior court judge, that means that he's cooperating. judge, that means that he's cooperating, he's already cut a deal, and he probably has no concern whatsoever about going to prison, at least not for any significant period of time. So if Bo Dukes cuts some sort of deal with law enforcement, why are they bringing the charges on him? I can't speak for the district attorney involved in this case. I can't speak for the GBI, but I believe, my own personal opinion is that the public just won't stand for someone not to be arrested if they were involved in what appears to have happened out there in that pecan orchard. It appears to

be very gruesome, very horrible, and if it's something that you knew about and you held on to for over a decade when you knew the community was hurting, it wouldn't make much political sense to not at least have an arrest. I'm looking back at the Ryan Duke warrants, and they allege that his criminal activity began with the murder on the 23rd, that being a Sunday. Of course, that's a 24-hour period. So past midnight on Saturday night. Past midnight until the next midnight during the time when you've got multiple phone calls

from people, law enforcement officers, and then, of course, the business card being left in her door during that 24-hour period time, that being on the 23rd, Sunday. Now, the warrants against Bo Dukes say that there was this period from October 23rd to October 28th, which suggests that it may have taken some time, probably at least a handful, if not three or four days, for them to completely finish their work in the pecan orchard. And it also suggests that, and I think it's not at all far-fetched to believe that if Ryan acted alone in the murder, that there would have been some temporary placement of her body until he could get some help and go back and dispose of it in a more efficient way.

So putting all this together, that's what the picture that I see is being painted. In today's economy, saving money is like an extreme sport. Coupon clipping. Promo code searching. It takes skill. Speed. Sweat. Unless we're talking Kudo's new phone, internet, and streaming bundle.

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Nah, it's like Coca-Cola with a refreshing burst of raspberry and spiced flavors. Yeah. Try new Coca-Cola Spiced today. So Ryan Duke's charges, he's the man who's been accused of Tara's murder. His charges allege that he killed Tara on the 23rd, which would mean after midnight on Saturday night. Tara left the barbecue, which is only a few minutes from her home, right at 11 o'clock that night. So you have about an hour of where I guess Ryan Duke wasn't there. It's just kind of confusing to me that if Ryan was going to burglarize her home

and she lives in a tiny house, he would totally see her in there and would not be a good place to rob if that's what you're trying to do. Unless, in fact, Tara may have gone home after the barbecue and then left again and maybe came back really late. And that's why Ryan thought no one was coming home that night.

Well, I'm not buying the burglary gone bad to start with. And if this didn't happen until the 23rd, then she had to go somewhere and be somewhere, probably with somebody after the barbecue, but before she was murdered. So that's the big question that investigators and maybe the public needs to figure out you know what what happened during that time period and then the next question is how exactly did this murder go down at her home the warrants against Ryan clearly say in concealing the death that he removed the deceased body of Tara Grinstead on the 23rd. It doesn't say what time on the 23rd, and it doesn't say what time on the 23rd he burglarized the home and that he committed aggravated assault. It could be that he killed her, left her there, went back during the same 24-hour period, and then removed

her. But it clearly says he removed her body on the 23rd, which was Sunday. Wow. I guess from this point forward, what should we expect in the court of law for Ryan Duke and Bo Dukes? I'm going to go out on a limb, and I'm going to predict that a deal's already been cut with regard to both of them. Because Irwin County cannot afford a high-profile murder trial. Theoretically, this could qualify for the death penalty based on Georgia's statutory aggravating factors. But this is a very rural county with not a lot of disposable income in their budget. This would be a trial that would be very high profile, very sensational. It would have to be moved outside of Irwin County. There's

no way you're going to find a jury there that hasn't heard lots about this case. I'm from those parts, and I can tell you it's an echo chamber, and the rumor mill goes bananas. They're not going to find a jury there. If you use the carrot and the stick approach, I guess you could threaten Ryan Duke with life without parole or perhaps the death penalty. And in exchange for a plea of guilty, he could get life with the possibility of parole. That's really the only deal that makes any sense. Just, they just wouldn't kill him. Right. He goes to prison and he's got some eligibility for parole.

Right. He may have health problems. Who knows what might cause somebody to just go ahead and cut a deal. From his demeanor in court, when we saw him at his first appearance, he certainly looked like someone who did not have a lot of hope for his future. That's very true. What kind of deal are we talking about for Bo Dukes here? Bo Dukes probably gets probation, maybe a little jail time, if any, but if this is a situation where they would not have solved it but for his coming forward, I could see that as if I were representing him, I might not be willing to cooperate at all unless we had either immunity or at least prison was off the table.

So it just seems mind-blowing to me that a guy who allegedly helped destroy Tara's body and concealed this awful, heinous crime and then keep it secret for almost 12 years could just get off scot-free by saying, Hey, one day I woke up and said, I'll just tell the GBI what happened today. and then keep it secret for almost 12 years, could just get off scot-free by saying, hey, one day I woke up and said, I'll just tell the GBI what happened today. That doesn't happen a lot where someone just says, hey, I'm going to go ahead and come forward after all this time and solve the biggest mystery that you've had in the criminal justice system in Irwin County forever. So that doesn't make sense. What makes sense is that he had some, something happened that inspired him to probably go seek counsel, which is what would be appropriate any time you think you might be in legal trouble is go seek counsel. Good lawyers know how to cut good deals.

And if you've got some information, if it's really, really valuable, that is the currency that you're using to pay for a better future, if you will. And so that looks like what's happened here. We keep hearing the word deal, like Bo cutting a deal and Ryan maybe getting a deal. Can anything revoke these deals? Can Bo Dukes do anything right now that could prevent them from honoring whatever deal they may be giving him? Not much, really. I mean, it would have to be something that one side or the other completely reneges on something.

Or if it turns out that Bo, for example, wasn't completely truthful, he didn't give them everything that he knew, that he was in some way dishonest, that could cause a deal to fall apart. But my guess is, and this is an educated guess, this thing was ironed out very meticulously and vetted by the GBI and law enforcement and prosecutors before these warrants were signed just the day before Bo's arrest. Remember, there was some period of time between the two, and the GBI referenced some

additional investigative acts and interviews that they had to conduct to corroborate things, probably. So they would have had to vet his information before they agreed to any kind of deal. One thing I thought was kind of interesting, Bo Dukes was arrested on Friday, this past Friday, and that morning, his mugshot, he's wearing what looks like this sort of pinkish red polo shirt. It could have been something that they gave him inside to wear. But moments later, whenever he walks outside and he's bonded out and he's walking with his attorney, he has a suit on. So he presumably knew where he was going that morning.

Oh, yes. The warrants were signed on the 2nd. He cooperated up until that point by telling the GBI where to go look and what to go look for. And basically, you know, they debriefed him on everything that he knew about this case, probably everything that Ryan may have told him over the years about it. So these things were all happening prior to the judge issuing the warrant. The GBI could have sought this arrest warrant earlier than March the 2nd, but they waited until March the 2nd. And they also went to a superior court judge rather than going to the magistrate court, which if you go to the magistrate court, you're going to be seen by people in the hallway. You're

going to be seen by people at the front counter. If you go to a judge's home at 9, 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock at night to get a warrant signed, then you don't have a lot of third parties and a lot of other eyes seeing what you're up to. So this was all very carefully orchestrated. So the next hearing for Ryan Duke, I believe, is in April. What happens there? I don't think it's wise to assume that there's going to be anything that happens in April. What the judge, and I'm not saying anything negative about the judge, but it's worth noting that magistrate judges outside of the metropolitan Atlanta area don't have to be attorneys. So they don't necessarily know everything there is to know about the criminal justice process. The district attorney is not obligated to send this case to the grand jury

at any particular point in time. They will have to wait, and they should wait, until they get the entire investigative file put together. I suspect that there's going to be, if there's not one already, that there will be a deal cut. There may not ever be a grand jury presentation. He could waive his right to a grand jury and they could file what's called an accusation and go to court and enter a plea. I don't believe there is a court date in April. And what the judge referenced was a grand jury meeting. Grand juries are done in secret. The defendant is not there. The defendant's lawyer is not there. It's just a group of people, you know, roughly 20, 22 people that hear from the

case investigator and then the DA, and then they will return a bill of indictment. If he decides that he's going to contest these charges and not agree to something, it may very well require a grand jury indictment in the future. But there's no reason to believe, and I think it's very unlikely that this case would be heard by the grand jury in April. That's just way too quickly, and it doesn't make sense. What can you tell me about this gag order that's in place? Gag orders are used when there are high-profile cases, cases where the defense may believe that their right to a fair trial would be undermined by pretrial publicity. And so they will go to a judge and

they'll say, look, judge, we want you to order the police and prosecutors and everybody not to talk about the case outside of court because we want to make sure we protect our right to a fair trial. Again, I don't believe there's ever going to be a trial in this case. I think that it would bankrupt the county. I think that the stakes are too high. I think Ryan Duke has told some version of the truth that is sufficient to get him convicted anyway. So I don't think a gag order would really be necessary. I mean, if the court system was anticipating no trial, then why would there be a gag order in place? Well, on its face, it says that the defense asked for it. I can see why the defense might ask for it, at least up front, because in the initial stages of representing a client, the defense counsel doesn't really know exactly what's going to happen.

And it could just have been done out of an abundance of caution. But here's the thing. Any law enforcement agency could have issued a direct order to all of its employees to not discuss the case, and they would be bound by that order as a matter of internal policy. And if you violate a direct order, you can lose your job, potentially be prosecuted if you impede the investigation in some way. But this gag order goes on to say all potential witnesses, I think. And who knows who in the world is going to be a witness in this case when you had so many people, civilians and law enforcement alike, joining out, joining the search, you know, fanning out and going all around the county participating in a search for her. People for the last 10 or 12 years who may have had conversations with Ryan Duke, Bo Dukes, any of the other people that were involved in Tara's life, they've had conversations about this

and who knows who's going to wind up being a witness. And so the gag order was very, very broad and I think it was probably unconstitutionally broad. Yeah, it seems a little extreme in this case. So is it possible for the gag order to be removed in any sort of way? The gag order is currently being fought. It's being challenged by media organizations. You know, there's a First Amendment right of the press to ask questions. There's a First Amendment right to free speech.

People have a right to talk about things, even controversial things. And so gag orders always run into constitutional First Amendment-type problems. You've got, on the one hand, the defendant has a right to a fair trial, but by the same token, the press and the defendant has a right to a fair trial, but by the same token, the press and the public have a right to talk about it. So that's the balancing act that you have with this particular gag order, which is very, very broad. So from what you can tell with the gag order, what can I not do now? Does it affect me and this podcast at all? I don't think you're a witness in the case. I think you're a person who's simply asking questions. Right.

And so you're a journalist. You're a citizen journalist. You don't have to work for a major newspaper or Fox News to be considered a journalist and to go out and ask questions and to talk about it. What we're doing here today is protected by the First Amendment. We're entitled to talk about these things. We're entitled to offer opinions. We're looking at public documents and discussing what they may mean. So absolutely, this gag order cannot cover what we're doing today.

Gotcha. Okay. Well, that's good news then. So what should we expect next? How slow is this going to be? Is this going to be a dragged out process? What's next here? I mean, what are we looking at now?

I think we're looking at a prolonged period of silence, maybe for a few months, and then we'll hear something about somebody having a court date hastily scheduled and both of these matters being resolved. That's just my hunch. If Ryan Duke decides he wants a trial and he's going to enter a plea of not guilty, well, everybody better fasten their seatbelt because this is going to be one hell of a ride. That's very true. If Ryan Duke does plead not guilty, even if Bo Dukes has some sort of deal in place, are they going to have to make him testify against him? That is his deal. His deal is that you're going to cooperate and you're going to testify. And we're not going to resolve your case in any manner unless or until you comply with your obligations under the agreement, which primarily is going to be to testify if there's a trial. Bo Dukes, I'm comfortable in predicting 99.9% in all likelihood, he has already told them everything that he knows about this case,

which is probably quite a bit. And so they've got a record of it. It's probably in writing. It's recorded. It's been taken down. And it may even have been taken down under oath with a court reporter. But he's already given statements. And those statements would be used in any trial if Ryan Duke decides

that he wants to have a trial. Right. Okay. That's the leverage against Duke to give him an incentive to go ahead and plead guilty, because the DA could say, hey, if you don't, then you know what? We'll just go ahead and do what we have to do, and we'll try your case, even if we have to go up to Bibb County or Cobb County or any place like that to have your trial, but we'll have to do and we'll try your case even if we have to go up to Bibb County or Cobb County or any place like that to have your trial but we'll do it and we're going to look for life without parole or we could conceivably seek the death penalty. Right one thing you said earlier is about Osceola and Irwin County area is that it's sort of the rumor mill and obviously a bunch of rumors fly around that place and especially when something this high profile is happening in that small town one of the things i've been hearing

go around is this story about the police knowing about this at some point either they went to go check it out and didn't see anything but i've heard this whole pecan orchard story was told to some people over 10 years ago. If that turns out to be true, which we may or may not ever find out anyways, does that change anything? Is that a big issue or is that just a screw up? It could very well be a very big issue. If this was information that was just out there in the rumor mill that never landed in the laps of law enforcement, well, then that's just the way it is. But if it's something that was known to law enforcement and they didn't properly investigate it, it would at least be very embarrassing. be very embarrassing. And so if it turns out that Ryan Duke was in fact on their radar screen, or if it turns out that he was even questioned, and they said later at this press conference

that he wasn't on the radar and that he wasn't questioned, then they've got some explaining to do. That means that at a minimum, they interviewed him and forgot about it. Well, that's bad enough, but if they interviewed him and then lied about it, then the GBI has a lot of explaining to do. I'm not going to accuse anybody of lying. I don't know who they talked to or what was said. I could conceive of a situation where Ryan Duke was one of the people that they talked to, but the first time around, he didn't have a whole lot to offer, and they felt that

there was no reason to suspect him, and they just moved on to somebody else, and his name is somewhere buried in the reams of paperwork. That's a possibility, But if they dropped the ball somewhere, or if they knew about the pecan orchard and didn't follow up on it, or if it turns out that they misled the public at the press conference, when Ryan Duke, in fact, may have been, for example, questioned early in the case, then they've got a problem. At a minimum, it's a public relations problem, but they've got a problem. My biggest fear is that we'll never know exactly what happened to Tara. My biggest fear is that Ryan has said just enough to generate these arrest warrants, and that he may very well die in prison or otherwise go to his grave without telling anybody what exactly happened.

You can't make someone say everything. That's correct. You can't. And in order for him to, let's say he does enter a plea, all he's got to basically do is tell the judge that there's enough facts in the case that could justify a jury finding him guilty. And therefore, it's in his best interest to take a plea deal. He doesn't have to go and answer every question in court about what happened in order to get a plea deal. He doesn't have to go and answer every question in court about what happened in order to get a plea through. So if he does plead guilty, is he required to say what happened? I mean, obviously he can omit details, but he has to say what he's pleading guilty to. The judge has to be satisfied that there's a factual basis for him to be pleading guilty.

Is he required to tell the story? He's not required to tell all the details. The judge just has to be satisfied that there's a factual basis. He could also enter another kind of a plea. It's sort of like a no-contest plea, but we call it an Alford plea in Georgia in felony cases. It's basically if you want to take advantage of a plea deal and you want to avoid the risk of a trial, you have a right to have sentence imposed

upon you if you believe it's in your best interest, even though you don't have to necessarily admit that you're actually guilty. Okay, wow. And here's what I'm afraid of is that even when people plead guilty, it's possible, although it doesn't usually work, it's possible decades into the future for somebody to come back and challenge their plea by saying it wasn't voluntary. So the state could simply sit on this evidence saying until the appeals are over, the possibility of an appeal is over, we're going to go ahead and classify this as an open investigation and you're not going to get our records under the open records law. That would be terrible. That would be the worst-case scenario. Georgia has a really— They've been doing that for 12 years.

Well, I can see the last 12 years for the most part, because until they knew what happened to her, it was at least within the realm of possibility that she just picked up and left to start a new life somewhere. So it was an active investigation. I can buy that. But once these criminal cases are completed, they really ought to go ahead and release everything that needs to be released under the open records law. And I hope they don't sit back on this. It's an open investigation excuse. I hope they let the public know, especially for the family.

The family needs to know what happens. The family deserves to know. They deserve to know. Georgia needs a better open records law. I agree. If the state is going to sit back and say, well, this is still an open investigation, because maybe some other people are involved. We're still looking into that.

I mean, they could just make stuff up until the cows come home. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for listening, guys. And don't forget, episode 14 comes out next Monday, March 13th. And you don't want to miss it. All I can say is this thing gets much, much deeper.

I also want to give a special thanks to Resonate Recordings for editing and mixing today's episode. They specialize in podcast editing and production. If you're looking to improve the quality of your podcast or start a podcast of your own, check them out at resonaterecordings.com. Thanks, guys, and I'll see you Monday.