Up and Vanished - S1E12: "I Love You Too"

Episode Date: January 31, 2017

We find out who George Harrison really is and we talk to several new people with some very important information in this case.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Are you scared? Yes, sir. One by one, kids are going missing with no explanation. A black 15-year-old male who lived in the same area where three other children had disappeared. There was a real-life monster on the loose. The city of Atlanta demanded answers. Inner-city kids get killed. Unfortunately, nobody cares.

By 1981, the FBI was involved in one of the largest manhunts in U.S. history. And eventually, they put one man behind bars. But nearly 40 years later, this case has left more questions than answers in what may be Atlanta's darkest secret. I don't know today whether he's innocent or guilty. From the producers of Up and Vanished and How Stuff Works, we present an all-new podcast, Atlanta Monster. Subscribe to Atlanta Monster right now on Apple Podcasts

and be the first to hear it on January 5th. Okay, cue the clap now. George Harrison. Isn't it a pity? Isn't it a shame How we break each other's heart And cause each other pain I'm ready. 10 years ago today marked the last time anybody in Tennessee or talking to Tara Grinstead. Officially, police are calling this a missing persons case.

GBI officials say investigators say the conversation is not going to end. An $80,000 reward is being offered for your involvement. Where is Tara Grinstead? From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished, the investigation of Tara Grinstead. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey. Since the last episode, some people have asked me whether or not this George Harrison thing was real. Some suggesting that maybe I made it up. But I can assure you that's not the case.

And I can totally see where you're coming from. Because when all this stuff was happening, I was literally thinking the same thing. Nobody's even going to believe me. This whole George Harrison thing was a real eye-opener in the beginning. Of what I was getting myself into. This idea that somebody associated with the case knew me, but I didn't know them, was a creepy feeling. And for a while, it's all I was thinking about in this case. I found a way that you can search for the IP address next time that you're chatting with him. Yeah, I saw that, but I had to keep it on there. That's the only thing. Maybe if I don't type and I just paste it in there, he won't see that type

and I can get something sent to him. But see, he don't stay on long enough. I even called my mom to get her thoughts on it. And he keeps deactivating his Facebook, like completely, not just blocking people, like deactivating it. And after you told deactivating it and after you told me about it and after you know that night we talked that's the way I would feel to me it must make more sense for maybe somebody who knows something or something or that would be somebody who's paranoid thing is is that I've only talked to so many people so I can like narrow it back

to like there's only so many people I've talked to yeah so many people, so I can like narrow it back to like, there's only so many people I've talked to. Yeah. He's like someone who's been trying to find out information. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you're not good at that. Someone who's been watching. Lock your doors when you leave, you know?

You can search it. Yeah, yeah, I am. There's crazy people out there. Not only was his situation crazy, but with no podcast out at all, and the fact that I was spending all my time dealing with this and talking about it, it was making me sound crazy. Here's a conversation with my wife and my little brother, right after it all started. That person is still messaging people. Still messaging the investigator, talking about pain sense, all this. Still deleting his account?

Yeah, so he keeps deactivating his account, which makes it disappear. And when he does that, it makes his account? Yeah, so he keeps deactivating his account, which makes it disappear. And when he does that, it makes his comments disappear too, whenever he posted them. Then he reactivates it, I guess, to check his messages, to see if God wouldn't message him or somebody else. I mean, I'm not saying this person's the killer.

I don't know. Give me one other good reason why someone would do this. I was freaking out. And I probably sounded a little nuts. But remember, this was all before the podcast was even a thing. My younger brother did not take it as seriously. He's going to solve it, and that's my brother. I'm being serious.

Whatever, Mason. So my little brother thought I was silly, but I was still hell-bent on finding out who this guy was. One of the biggest mysteries that I couldn't explain, and one of the things that makes this story sound so unbelievable, was the fact that George Harrison knew the name Up and Vanished before I even announced it. After putting some more thought into it,

it technically wasn't impossible for someone to find that name, but only if they were really looking for it. And I mean really looking for it. See, right before it all started, I shot a trailer for Up and Vanished, to use as a promo for the podcast. My friend Christian helped me shoot it. We had an actress named Michelle playing the role of Tara. When I was shooting it that morning, I took a picture of the film camera and posted it on Instagram.

I didn't put any captions on it, but if you looked closely at the film camera, there was a small strip of tape on the film magazine that said, Up and Vanished. I sent some still shots of the shoot to the actress, and she asked if she could post them on Facebook. So I said sure. But when she did, she tagged my name, Tara Grinstead's name, and the name Up and Vanished in the post. So if somebody typed in the name Tara Grinstead on Facebook and clicked search, this would pop up in the most recent post. And you would learn not only my name, but also the name Up and Vanished. But here's the thing. I realized this very quickly,

within about 20 minutes, actually, and I had her take it down. But technically, if George Harrison searched for Tara Grinstead on Facebook during that time period, he would have found that post. But only during that 20 minutes. Now that you're filled in on the backstory a little bit, let's pick up where we left off in the last episode. Okay, what's this guy's name? Let's run him. You got his information? Yep.

Okay, I'm glad he gave us the license. There's our guy. Who the hell is that? Jose ***. For legal and safety reasons, I have chosen to censor his last name. He's a real person, and it's a very complicated situation. Who is this guy? Did we ever verify if he was really Tara's student?

No. He claimed that he knew her, and he was either in the 7th or 8th grade. He just came here. She helped him with... English. English. Yes.

It seemed genuine. What was his demeanor when he was in there? It seemed like he was being truthful then, but what wasn't truthful was he just fell off the face of the earth. I tried calling his number. It didn't work. I didn't even get him until I called, I think, his mother.

And I said, what is going on? What was his motive in coming here in the first place? He wanted to hire us to investigate the case. And he had already done a lot of investigation himself and gotten in trouble. Doing what? Just interviewing people, talking to people. I mean, I don't know if... I didn't get a feeling then that he was interjecting himself.

It seems very suspicious, because if he... I always look at the motive. If he was genuine and he cared, he's going to be jumping all over it. Me calling, and what are we doing, and did you find anything? That's what somebody, I guess, genuinely cares. But now he's radio silent. Mm-hmm. Been radio silent for a while.

A long while. But, you know, he's radio silent. and acting almost like a PI himself. And I told him, you have to stop that. You can't keep doing that. So now I had George Harrison's real name, Jose. Well, at least I thought so. So far, I was basing this determination mainly off of my gut feeling, that his typing matched up perfectly, and his online behavior, from what I could tell, resembled that of this Jose guy in real life. But I needed something more concrete than that. Undeniable proof that this guy was George Harrison. A few weeks went by, and George Harrison's account remained inactive. He was no longer online. He pretty much fell off

the face of the earth. When his Facebook was deactivated, and he looked at his messages, his profile picture would be blank, and say something like Facebook user. But one day, all of a sudden, Maurice was looking at the messages, and the profile picture was back, and so was the name. Except for this time, the profile picture was of a woman, and the name was no longer George Harrison. It was Julie. Basically, George Harrison reactivated the Facebook profile,

then changed his name and his picture on the account to a person named Julie. But here's where things got interesting. His new Facebook profile was based off of a real person, a lady who in real life was friends with Tara's sister. When you search Julie's name on Facebook, both accounts will pop up. So Maurice took it upon himself to message the real Julie, informing her of the fake Facebook profile. He told her the whole story about George Harrison. Then he asked her, have you ever met a person named Jose? The real Julie responded and

said, yes, I met him once. He came to the town I live in. I thought he had done something to my account. What? This person said she met Jose one time. How in the world did that happen? Either way, it didn't matter. Because now Maurice and I had proof that without a doubt, Jose was 100% George Harrison. There was no doubt about it that he was Harrison. There's no doubt about it that he was Harrison because her profile picture was a different profile picture than the one that he was using, but it was still her. I sent her a message.

I sent you the chat. There's no doubt about it. It was him. Yep, it was him. Remember that copy of his driver's license? I sent it to Maurice. I reported it. When you gave me that driver's license, and they went to his house.

I mean, he never let me know what happened or anything like that. I guess they just did it to eliminate him, but I'm sure they questioned it. I had told the guy ahead of the tariff thing about him a number of different times. But see, I didn't have anything to go on. And when I got that driver's license, I had something to go on. After that, things slowed down with George Harrison. His accounts went away again. At this point, the podcast was out, and I shifted my focus on other people.

Maurice sent his info to the GBI, so if they felt the need to investigate him, they could. At the time, I felt like I had bigger fish to fry, so I just sort of moved on. But throughout the course of my investigation, it was always in the back of my head. Who was this Jose guy? What was his motive? Was he just a troll playing a joke on me?

Or did he have credible information? Since the last episode, I went back to those same private investigators I met with six months ago to see if we could make contact with them and put this thing to rest once and for all. All this happened just a few days ago. Since I was here last, I spoke with Maurice, the PI in North Carolina again, because he was the one receiving the messages from George Harrison, the fake Facebook account. You know, they were about me, but they were to him. So I shared with him the details of Jose, who came in here.

He was pretty stressed out about it at the time, and he felt like he had to get this off of his shoulders. If this had to do something with the case, he had to do something about it and get it off his shoulders. So he, on his own account, sent this ID right here here to the gbi do we have a new number on him let's just call him and see what he's doing well i think we should call him does he know your number yeah he knows your number yeah because i've been trying to text him remember we're trying to text him back and forth okay and i want to since he's somewhat trusted us let's try it let's let's you want me

use my phone what do we want to if he answers what do we Let's try it. You want me to use my phone? What do we want to, if he answers, what do we want to ask? Just, hey, what are you doing? Why have you been doing this? Why are you doing this? Why are you poking around? Why are you doing this? Why are you obstructing? He's absolutely obstructing.

Right. The Verizon wireless, the number you dialed has been changed. Disconnected. No surprise. Of course his number didn't work, so we searched some more. And found one more number on him. Maybe this was it. Hello?

Hey. Hey. I'm trying to reach Jose. Pardon? I'm trying to reach Jose. You must have the wrong number. Okay, how long have you had this number? About three years. Three years, okay. Okay, how long have you had this number? About three years.

Three years, okay. All right, I apologize. That's fine. Thank you. Again, no surprise, but right before we left, this happened. Okay, got Jose's mom on the phone. Jose's mom? Hey, how are you?

Hello? Hey, we're you? Hello? Hey, we're trying to find Jose. Okay, thank you. Yes, hello? Ah, bueno. Habla español? Ah, bueno. Ah, habla español?

Uh, a little bit, but we're looking for Jose. Gotta be kidding me. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, bueno. Oh, habla español? Uh, a little bit, but we're looking for Jose. Gotta be kidding me. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. What is your rank? Yes, he knows me. So would you have him call me? I don't know. Do you have a one-four number?

Yeah. One-four number? Do you have his number? Oh, my goodness. Well, that's his mama. So he was still a ghost, but I was over it. Then two hours later after I left the office, the PI called me back. You have to be really careful and acute when you're being accusatory on this podcast. I never accused him of anything. All I did was read the messages. I understand. I agree with that.

You were right about that. You were right. He put his own self on the radar. I agree. He's probably, well, Jose's probably lying about a lot of things too. I'm like, Jose, you've been missing. What's the problem? Well, I've been dealing with the TV.

I'm like, what do you mean you're telling the TV? Yeah. TV, I can't lie. Terry, they need it. This is, this is what's going on. I said, I don't know. You have to be really, really careful about what you put on this podcast. I would rather him tell me everything if he could, or tell him to come to my office and interview him. I just want to calm him down. I want to beg him to come to my office,

and I want to see what's going on with him. I want to ask him every single question that you want to ask him, and then I want to tell him it's about time for you to meet Penny. The complicated thing about this was that Jose came to them first, about a year ago. So in their eyes, he's still their client. I felt like I had done my part. And unless he had something else to say, there was no need for me to meet him. She called me back the next day.

There was no need for me to meet him. She called me back the next day. I mean, Jose, I just, I mean, I just showed up at his work. GBI showed up at his work, I guess, about six months ago. I guess interrogated him and swabbed him. He did admit to the fake profiles, just like you said, everybody else, but fake profiles together. So there it was. Final confirmation. Jose admitted that it was him.

I wanted to make sure that I found the right person before I even said his first name, so I was in fact being truthful. I had a gut feeling, but I wanted to see it all the way through. That's why I met with you guys again to see if we could make contact and affirm that that was the case. I was trying to get to the bottom of who was sending those messages, and it looks like I have. I have no evidence that says that he was actually a student of hers. I think he's just somebody who has become obsessed with this case for whatever reason. Maybe not in a malicious way, but in a way that's not helpful. He's probably not a suspect here.

He's just some guy who got himself in a mess that happened to involve me. So after doing some serious digging with Maurice, we found nothing supporting that Jose was a student of Tara's. He would have been 15 at the time of Tara's disappearance. Tara taught 11th grade history, so he wasn't old enough to be in her class if he in fact went to school there, which we also have no evidence of. The GBI has his DNA, and he's not in jail.

That has to say something. It was still weird to me, but after all that, I had no desire to meet him. experience basketball like never before with bet mgm an authorized gaming partner of the nba ready to shoot your shot we've made the bet mgm experience more immersive and fun for all types of basketball fans being on the sidelines is one thing. This season, experience basketball on the foul line, exciting state-of-the-art live tracking technology, and dozens of sportsbook selections await you at BetMGM Sportsbook.

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shop, plain and simple. Start your shopping at Rakuten.ca or get the Rakuten app. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N.ca. Not too long ago, I got a call from a man named Robert Preston. He ran a local newspaper near Osceola at the time of Terra's disappearance. He wanted to share with me some of the things he learned as it all unfolded back then. I was the editor of the Douglas Daily News at the time. We hadn't been in business very long, maybe six or seven months or so. And it was a neat experiment for our community. We never had a daily paper and we were five days a week. We obviously had to find a lot of news in a hurry to put out five newspapers a week.

I remember when we heard that Tara had disappeared. None of us knew Tara, had never heard of Tara before. Even though we're, you know, we're 25 miles away, we weren't familiar with her at all. And we began getting phone calls at our office that morning that this young, attractive teacher in Osceola hadn't shown up for work and people feared the worst. And normally, in all honesty, we probably wouldn't have pursued the story as quickly as we did. If we had been, you know, a once or twice weekly newspaper, we probably would have just kind of sat back to see how it developed. But again, because it was a Monday Monday morning we needed news for the week

we jumped on it pretty quickly and it didn't take us long just a just a matter of hours to see that there was a lot of interest in the case that a lot of people in Coffey County did know her and and were particularly people in the pageant scene were familiar with her. We stayed with the story for as long as we could. I got involved when some of the television stations, the national media really started paying attention. When Nancy Grace picked up on the story, that was when we really took more of an active role in the case. The Nancy Grace show called our office one day,

one of the producers did, and this was several months after Tara had disappeared. And they asked to speak to someone on the air about the case. And what I actually did was I looked at my reporters. I said, look, you know, Nancy Grace wants somebody from Douglas Daily News on the air, somebody from our papers going, who wants it? And neither one of them wanted to do it. And I said, all right. I said, I'm giving you guys one more opportunity because if you don't do it, I am, and we're not going to pass up this opportunity. And so I said, okay, I'm going to tell them I'll do it. And now you guys have to brief me on the story.

Because again, I just, I knew what I had read in the paper. I made a few phone calls and we found out the details of the Nancy Grace appearance. I was actually on the show with Tara's sister in front of Tara's house. The one thing that we couldn't figure out, the same thing people still can't figure out today and what you're trying to get to the bottom of, is how does something like this happen? How does a person completely vanish?

And I know your podcast is up and vanished, and that's exactly what happened. Tara was here, and then Tara was gone. And there aren't a lot of clues in between, not anything that has really pieced together exactly what happened. There are gaps in her movements that day. And those gaps obviously are where the clues are, but we've never been able to fill in those gaps. And of all the cases that the GBI has investigated in Georgia, the Grinstead case is the thickest file that they have. There's more information, more notes, more papers in that file than any other file that they have. Either nobody saw anything

or people are too scared to talk. But I mean, obviously somebody knows. Somebody knows exactly what happened. And somebody knows somebody who knows exactly what happened. But people aren't talking. And it just still, 10 years later, it puzzles us now.

And I think that people automatically key on the fact that it was a jealous lover who might have killed her. Again, I'm not so sure that that's the case. I'm not so sure that it was someone, you know, who was having an affair with her who killed her. Maybe someone who wanted to have an affair with her and she wouldn't reciprocate, something like that. But, you know, I don't know that the glove has anything to do with it. I don't know why the glove was there. I don't know that the glove is necessarily a clue. You would think with the people close to her, as many people have been swabbed, if the glove was directly

involved, something would have shown up on that. It would be interesting to find the person whose DNA is in that glove and find out what information they have. But I say it seems unlikely. You know, a lot of times breaks in these cases come from the most unlikely of sources and unlikely of places. Somebody gets arrested for something else and wants to cut a deal and has some information,

hey, you know, I can tell you a little bit more about the Grinstead case. And that might come another 10 years down the road. But, you know, the glove, what everybody is keyed on is the glove and the black truck. And I remember on the Nancy Grace show being asked about the black truck, you know, what significance that may or may not have had. You know, obviously it's suspicious that someone's coming by in a vehicle like that or just in a vehicle period along that same time. At the same time, with as many relationships as Tara reportedly had, knowing how people are in our area,

it wouldn't be that unusual for somebody to ride by our house looking for them. He told me an interesting story about a Nancy Grace interview that was held in Osceola. He was in the room when it all happened. I was sitting in the interview, and during that portion of the interview, I didn't have a lot to say. And I was listening to the exchange between Nancy and the other guests. And they basically accused Marcus of killing Tara on that broadcast. And you've seen Nancy's show.

You know what her on-air persona is. And I was sitting there listening to that, and I'm thinking, you know, as a reporter, I would not dare get into the territory that she was getting into. I was thinking, she could be liable for these statements that they're making. And

apparently, the Harper family was watching it as well, and they called their attorney, who was Tom Pajalas, a very well-known, prominent attorney in our area, lives in Ocilla. And once the show, I mean, immediately after we went off the air, he walks in. Now, I come from a family of attorneys. And I have heard Tom Pajotis' name mentioned many, many years in my family.

I'd never seen him before. I didn't know who this gentleman was. But he walked in. It was a Friday night. And he was basically in his pajamas. But he walked in very confidently and with an air of authority about him. And he went up and demanded to speak to the producers. And I saw them talking, but I didn't hear exactly what was said.

But they came back to us and said, as we went into the next show, which we were going to take and play later, that we couldn't get into Marcus during the next segment. I don't know exactly what was said, but there was a threat of legal action and they issued some kind of apology and then didn't discuss that again. The Harper family took very swift action that night. And to my knowledge, Nancy never took that same tone about Marcus on her show again. The spotlight always seems to come back to Marcus Harper.

But I think that you stated this on the podcast, that nobody has been vetted to the degree that he has. And thus far, nothing has been linked to him. You know, I mean, everything, at least on the surface, seems to point back to him. His military training, the strained nature of their relationship. There was obviously some jealousy issues going on. Tara was evidently seeing more than one person, and there just seems to be a lot that could cause someone in his position to do something drastic. But he's been vetted up and down, top to bottom, front to back, and everything seems to check out. I wonder if while the investigation focused on him and while officers and agencies worked their way through that vetting process with him,

if that didn't give someone who was, if not equally close, time to cover their tracks. The spotlight was definitely immediately on him from day one. And I think the focus on Marcus Harper gave he or she the opportunity that they needed to make sure that they covered their tracks. He's been vetted more than anyone else has. And things have been pretty consistent with him, at some point, if you're lying, you're going to slip up and give something away. You know, you have to keep telling lie after lie after lie

to cover everything up. Either he didn't do it, or he is a very good and very consistent liar. When the news about Tara's disappearance spread through the media, it quickly gained national coverage. One of the most consistent reporters on the case in those early stages was Nancy Grace. She's actually one of the few reporters that were allowed inside Tara's house at that time. And she's interviewed countless people in this case. So I reached out to her. And sure enough, she was down to talk to me about it.

I recall first hearing about Tara Grinstead's disappearance. The moment I heard about it, I knew something was off. This woman did not leave on her own volition. She was just too close to her own family. And I guess I projected how I would feel because there's no way in ATLL that I would have left my mother and father worried sick about me. There's no way she would leave her upset, wondering, hurting. I knew immediately Tara was dead. I'm from Macon, Georgia, the really big county out in the middle of really nowhere, where all you could see were tall pine trees and soybean fields.

That's where I come from. And Hawkinsville is just a hop, skip, and a jump away from where I grew up. So I was very, very familiar with Hawkinsville, having driven with my mom and dad those back roads all throughout Georgia. Hawkinsville is very, very rural. It's got a vibrant little town, the county seat. But beyond that, very rural. And you start getting into a lot of unincorporated area.

Her body could be anywhere. And I would put money on it that it was expertly hidden. I remember meeting with Tara's mother and going through her house. And the impression I can give you, it was like a dollhouse. It was small, very small, but it was perfectly furnished. Attention to detail. And she did it herself. Tara did, decorated beautifully. She had wall hangings and objects of art. It was just very beautifully done.

It looked like, I remember when I walked in, I was first struck that it looked like a dollhouse. And I was first struck that it looked like a dollhouse. I mean, it clearly reflected who she was to me anyway. Well, we both know there's very little evidence in this case, besides the latex glove. But the condition of the house inside, did it present to you that there could have been a struggle there? Or do you remember? It was in tip-toptop shape and i didn't see any signs of a struggle but of course if a man had kidnapped her especially a man that she knew there may not have

been struggled there may not have been a struggle she may have opened the door she may have stepped outside another thing about tara she went to dal State. Now, that's where she got her master's. She's a teacher, as we all know now. She also went to Middle Georgia College. I was very familiar with those because I went to Valdosta originally, and that's where I met my fiancé, Keith, who was later murdered. And in fact, the baseball field there has a dedication plaque to him still sitting there, the Blazers. So that caught my attention as well. It was close to my home where I was born. When I met her mother, I became totally dedicated to trying to find the answer to the riddle of her disappearance.

Many people seem to believe they knew who the killer is. Gossip, rumor, and innuendo was rife all around town. Now, everybody didn't agree. Now we know there's only one killer. They can't all be right. But I do agree with them, especially to the extent that I believe, I know, I'll go out on a limb, I know her killer knew her well, where she lived at the time, it's not on a busy thoroughfare

it's not say you're walking in the streets of Manhattan or the Bronx or Hong Kong and you're surrounded by millions of people anybody could snatch you. Not so where Tara went missing. It's somebody that she knew, a local that was in her life. That's what happened. She wasn't the victim of a hit and run and they hid the body. It wasn't an accident. She was targeted and murdered. Now, that's the easy part. The hard part is proving which person that knew her wanted to murder her. I think that whoever murdered Tara and hid her body, disposed of her body, knew very well what they were doing. I hate to say criminals are smart,

because if you're that smart, you're not going to be a criminal. But whoever murdered Tara knew what to do and what not to do. I would be willing to bet her body is totally decomposed by now. Or possibly even, and I hate to say this because I don't want to hurt her mother's feelings, but possibly even dismembered and strewn in different parts. One of the main issues with this case, especially if you're me trying to dig back into it, in Georgia, the Georgia Open Records Law basically locks up those case files. So the GBI has this huge case file, which has now grown to the largest case file in the history of Georgia.

How do you feel about that? Do you feel that they should limit access like that? Or should people like you and me who want to solve this have access to that? I think that we have closed investigative files for a reason. However, once a case goes cold and police aren't getting answers, Once a case goes cold and police aren't getting answers, I really don't see why the entire case file is kept secret. Now, certain things, for instance, if they had a person of interest and they investigated it and they eliminated that person as a suspect, that would be in the file. as a suspect, that would be in the file. And you don't want that released because that person is innocent and they would be forever smeared by that association to a murder.

So I get why some things are kept secure and secret. But for the bulk of the investigative material, I think it should be released. You think there's a case to be made here for at least some of the records to be made available to the public? Absolutely. Because we're not getting any more forensic evidence. That's over. That was possibly over the night they realized she was missing. It may have already been hidden or disposed of.

But what we have now is putting together a puzzle because there's no more physical evidence to be had. And that puzzle would be bolstered by the timeline and potential motives. Then you start with the timeline, ruling out anybody that's got an alibi, and I mean an airtight alibi. I don't mean I was at home reading a book by myself alibi. I mean, you've got a witness or a phone call or a cell phone triangulation to place you at a certain spot. Bam. If you don't have that, you're in the pot of suspects as far as I'm concerned. How do you feel about the latex glove found in Tara's yard?

Based on what I saw in her home, she would not have had any piece of trash in her yard. Her car was immaculate. Her home was immaculate. She was always very put together. And I don't think she would have had anything in her yard. If she had seen that the day before, the night before, she would have got picked it up and thrown it in the trash, which leads me to believe it was not there the day before, which clearly connects it to the time of her disappearance. Why do you think it doesn't match anybody's DNA? The same reason that JonBenet's underwear doesn't necessarily match anybody's DNA. You know, in the JonBenet Ramsey case, detectives reportedly went out and bought underwear, girls' underwear, or somebody's underwear at a store and tested it immediately.

And it had DNA on it from, I guess, the factory where it was manufactured. So that somebody else's DNA on that really does not impress me now that I know that. I think the gloves should be retested with all of the developments in DNA testing, specifically the Y-filer DNA technique, which they are reportedly using to retest pieces of JonBenet Ramsey evidence. It's a whole new thing. There's a lot of new developments since Tara went missing. I think all the evidence should be retested. I mean, that's a start. There was something about the inside of her house, too.

I never really discussed it because I didn't have any evidence to base it on. It's like bringing a psychic into a courtroom. It's just a hunch, really. Something seemed amiss. There was something hanging in the air that was just wrong. She was super busy, and she had a little bit of, let me just say, a complicated love life. So whenever you have a single beautiful woman who has dated several people, focus really goes on her love life.

And there's a reason for that. I know it seems unfair, and in some ways it is. But statistically, that is where homicides are born. You look first at the lover, the husband, the ex, and then you move out from there to friends, relatives, family. You move out from there to the grocery boy, to the clerk, to the gas station, to the delivery guy, the mailman, the FedEx, the yard man, and then you move out from there until you finally get to a stranger attack,

not connected, which in my mind are the hardest cases to solve, a random attack. Usually killers are caught because of their relationship to the hardest, hardest cases to solve a random attack. Usually killers are caught because of their relationship to the victim overwhelmingly. And I think that this case is not unusual in that aspect. I think that the killer is close to home. Her cell phone was inside on the charger, but her purse and her keys were missing. Do you think that Tara left her house willingly that night? That makes me think she may have gone willingly, although I don't believe it was like her not to take her cell phone. And that makes me think she left suddenly without the intent to leave. Your podcast has been a real inspiration for me. It really has. Although it has brought back the whole Tara Grinstead murder. People say missing.

She was murdered. She's dead. She met a horrible, brutal ending. And her family still grieves. So let's just not make a mistake about that. My podcast is Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. And we are creating a feature where we can actually take calls from listeners. I'm super excited about it. And you can reach it, of course, on your cell phone by getting the app,

but on our new website, CrimeOnline.com, which I am so proud of. You know what's interesting? Toward the end of my time at HLM, I tried for several years to launch a crime website. I noticed that the cases that we helped solve were all solved because of the Internet. Nancy Grace, and I talk about it like it's not me, like it's something else. Nancy Grace aired at eight o'clock live Eastern, and then it repeated. So that information went out for just those two hours during the day. Crime goes on 24-7, 365, and so does the internet. You get action, you get results. And that really spurred me. I never thought in my wildest dreams I would be anything but a Shakespearean literature professor. That was my dream. Really? I never planned to become a prosecutor. That only happened after my fiance was murdered. Wow. I never planned or even

considered getting on TV. With Marcus Harper, you know, his history, he used to be a police officer in Osceola. Part of his alibi is riding around with a police officer in Osceola. Part of his alibi is riding around with a police officer in Osceola at the time. And then you have the whole possible affair going on with another cop from a different town. So you have all these men in badges. So do you think that has any sort of effect on why this case is unsolved? I think that you may have an embedded belief that a friend or co-worker is innocent and you may take their statements at face value. I doubt pretty seriously there was an overt cover-up such as they know the boyfriend did it and covered it up. I don't believe that. You know, loose lips sink ships. And

the only people that can really keep quiet, I think, are ex-cops because they know the deal. I met with Maurice again in person. We discussed in detail some of his findings from when he was first hired on this case, over 11 years ago now. When I was there in March of 06, the car was still there. They'd ripped that car all to pieces. That's when I found that stuff under the front spoiler, that debris stuff. It looks like marigolds. It looked like mulch or something, but it basically got it down to looking like marigolds.

What is that? That's a flower, type flower, with the seeds and the sticky things and stuff. So it was stuck in the front of the car? No, it was actually in the spoiler underneath, in the cup of the spoiler. So is that something that was in her yard or her driveway from a tree or something, or did that come from some other place? It must have come from some other place. For that to be on her spoiler, how would it get there? It would have to be run through some marigolds and stuff,

and some got trapped in there. Do you still have the actual... Oh, two years ago, cleaning up, my wife said, I said, just throw it away. No. I did. I just... colder than Alaska, man.

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And that makes it a double whammy here in trying to solve this case. She was not abducted from her home now. I do not believe that at all. It's a bad situation because a lot of people got their fingers pointing at them and suspicious and all that. And that's bad because these people got lives. You've heard that statement right. There's no such thing as a perfect crime

without some errors made by law. I think it was a crime in a heated moment, but planned afterwards. Something brought up recently by one of our listeners was that Jim Hickey, the guy who received the text message from Tara saying, I'm cold, was wrong about the time of the football game in his interview. Maurice commented on this.

Well, he was wrong about the football game in his interview. Maurice commented on this. Well, he was wrong about the football game. He was actually in Athens and the Georgia football game was actually during the daytime. It started at 12, probably noon, probably over at 4. Tara was at the barbecue at 8 o'clock when she sent the text to Hickey. If she sent the text to Hickey at 8 o'clock or after 8 o'clock at night, there's no way he could have been at the ballgame and got it. You couldn't have got a text message from Tara when you were at the Georgia game saying it's cold. It was encouraged by Troy Davis to send that

message because she wasn't at the Davis' house until after 8 o'clock p.m., and you were long gone from the Georgia game. An interesting point for sure, but in his defense, it's been over 11 years since that happened. I reached back out to Jim Hickey about this. He didn't have time for another interview on the podcast right now. He told me on Facebook that he probably just had his times mixed up. The football game was at noon that day and would have been over by 4 p.m.

He said they usually stayed up in the box for a little while after the game, and so it could have been nighttime when he got the message. He seemed sincere when he talked to me. While I was with Maurice, I asked him a very important question. Who was the last person to see Tara alive that you know about? Troy Davis. Usually in law enforcement, you look at the people who first found him, who brought attention to something or found something or found a body or whatever, and the last person to see him alive. But the last person to see her

alive that I know of was Troy Davis. To refresh your memory, Troy Davis had the barbecue that night. And from what we know, he was the last person to see Tara alive. Troy was also friends with Jim Hickey. He encouraged her to send that text message that said, I'm cold. Troy walked Tara to her car when she left the barbecue. And that was the last time she was ever seen. This was very important information,

and somebody that I needed to talk to. I reached out to him on Facebook, and we eventually agreed to meet up at a local bar in South Georgia for an interview. It was pretty loud in there, but I did my best to clean up the audio. Jim Hickey and I went to Georgia together. We didn't know each other then, but he played for Georgia.

So I watched him play, but we were there at the same time. So I knew him. I mean, I knew him from a football standpoint, but I didn't know him personally until later. I told Jim Hickey a while ago, and he said that that night he received a text from tira and i said i'm cold what do you remember about that whole thing or do you remember that i remember sending one to him yeah you know i remember saying it was cold yeah of course i probably um i probably pushed her a little bit gassed her about you know

well there's somebody you know right old Jim he'd be perfect you know yeah so

because I had introduced them one time and when we were at a conference at the same time she actually stayed with us I had like a four bedroom condo kind of thing

at this conference so she stayed with us and went out with him and you know you know so yeah I probably pushed that one a little bit I thought it was alright

you talking to Jim that night too? Pushed that one a little bit. You know. I thought it was, I thought it did alright. You know. Were you talking to Jim that night too? No, not that I recall. No. I mean, I don't recall talking to him.

You kind of just knew she was texting him. Well, she's sitting right here. Yeah, and you kind of like telling this guy. You know,

she's telling me. Okay. That's one thing you won't ever catch me do. You're following rings. You won't say, well, who was that thing? I mean, I don't do that. I asked him more about the barbecue.

When Tara arrived that night, what happened while she was there? Most everybody had wrapped up the eating part of it. The game actually was Auburn versus, and I could have told you this now years ago, but it was Auburn somebody that night. And we had a deck with a television. We just, back then, we rolled on and off the deck. And everybody else, of course, ate, but they were inside finishing, you know, whatever,

dessert, cocktail, whatever they were inside finishing you know whatever dessert next cocktail whatever they were doing it then of course I was out there running the fire pit on the bed TV for the next event and Tara came up and she rarely ate pork you know just because the beauty pageant thing, the training, her nutrition was huge and so she rarely ate pork. Well, that night we had grilled pork chops and I grilled steak. I knew that

she probably would be coming by. And so, we just had a little bit of both. And when she came in and she came in, she made a plate. I said, go on and make a plate. My daughter and I are out there on the deck at that point by ourselves. I said, you go on in there and make a plate.

You eat in there and come out here. Where would she come out? My daughter's sitting here, and she sat down here, and I'm sitting here. I can see the television, you know, and she had pork chop. And I said, Tara, you don't eat pork chop here. I said, I made steak for you. I know, but I just want to do something different. I said, okay.

I mean, eat what you want. You know, you have to sell. You could be overanalyzing it, but Tara did something out of character that night by eating pork when she never ate pork, at least according to Troy. I wasn't sure what it meant, but it was interesting.

What time did she get there, do you think? Oh, Lord have mercy. Let's see. It was an ESPN night game, so it had to be 8 o'clock, 7.30, 8 o'clock. You know.

Had the game started yet? Yeah. It had. Yeah, I think it had started. Yeah. But it was right early. I mean, early. So it had to be

8 o'clock. I mean. And she stayed until the local news had came on, WALB's local news, because at the end of that game, she helped us get the TV in. And so she hung out for a little while. I always walk people to the door. Always. It's just something I do. And back then on the deck, I walked people out. I walked out on the deck.

So there was a false wall that goes down the stairs. The deck's over here. And you take a ride under an open carport. Her car's parked right there. So I just walked out on the deck because I can look down at her. And she, you know, makes sure she gets in the carport and her car's parked right there. So I just walked down the deck because I can look down at her and she, you know, make sure she gets

in the car, you know. And I said, now next weekend is George Florida game. So, you know, we'll be doing

the George Florida game. Yeah. And so, you come on, you know, next weekend, come on down. Well, you know what? Come to think of it, I don't think the Sweet Potato Festival was that weekend. I think it was the next one.

Or was it? No, that was it. Yeah, we touched that. Okay, well, the Georgia-Florida game was next weekend. Georgia-Florida's huge. Yeah. You know, as long as I'm living and I can breathe, Georgia-Florida's huge. I'm going to have a crowd. Yeah, oh, yeah.

I said, you come on over to the Georgia-Florida game next weekend. Oh, I'll be here, she said. I said, okay. So she backs out, turns right to go home, drives the two or three blocks, it's city blocks from the house. Yep. That's it. I mean mean just last time i saw it it's pretty crazy last time i saw it so what time do that was that she left

yeah she didn't live far either right no i did she where she was going? Did she say she was going home? Yeah, she said she was going home. Said she was going home, put on her pajamas, and watched the pageant video. That's what she said. Remember that infamous pageant tape? This is where it came from. But also remember, they never found that pageant tape. So they never found that pageant video, which is one thing.

That was kind of odd. Really? I didn't know. I don't know. She may have meant the practice tape the night before. Like I said, she may have just been saying, this is what I'm going to go do. I asked Troy about Tara's behavior at the party and if anything she did stood out to him he did say that there was one thing he found very odd Tara was getting a lot of phone calls that night and one call in particular really stuck out to him over the years I'm sitting here, she's sitting here, my daughter's sitting here

yeah and I love a good cocktail, you know. I like a good cocktail. I'm sitting there and I'm just happy as I can be, you know. Yeah. Them two, they're talking, you know. I'm talking to her whenever she wants me to talk and she'll take the call. And she tells me who it is, you know.

That was so-and-so. And then somebody called about the beauty pageant. I can't remember which particular girl called, but there's some girl called about a beauty pageant. She told me. I mean, that's your thing. Volunteering. She's just telling me, you know.

And then she got a call, and she talked at length with this person for a phone call from me at length. And what caught me was she says, I love you too. Now, and that was a little louder than the rest of the conversation. And so she hangs up. I don't ask one word. She starts volunteering. That's an old friend of mine. I said, okay. He said, he's a police officer in Perry, I think. Perry. Perry.