Up and Vanished - S1E8: In The Box

Episode Date: December 6, 2016

We look a little deeper into the suicide theory and continue to search for new names in the box.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone else close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. So is this a snap? Yep it is. I'm sorry. marked the last time anybody in the presidency were talking to Tara Grinstead. Officially, police are calling this a missing persons case. GBI officials say investigators... Great ex-con in this room. $80,000 reward is being offered. Where is Tara Grinstead?

From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished, the investigation of Tara Grinstead. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey. Once the connections between the frontal cortex and the limbic system are gone, the limbic system is free to fire its messages of emotion uninhibited by the frontal cortex, and behavior becomes erratic and unpredictable.

Gage died 12 years later, still unbalanced. At the Warren Museum in Harvard, the tabbing rod and Gage's skull are preserved, a monument to research into how physical changes in the brain affect behavior. I felt like the suicide story needed more investigation. I wasn't ready to hang it up yet. I did some digging around, and I found some more details about the car wreck he had. From what I could find, the wreck didn't appear to be very traumatic. more details about the car wreck he had. From what I could find, the wreck didn't appear to be very traumatic. He didn't have any broken bones or any other severe injury. So what would cause him to start telling these stories about Tara? I called a clinical psychologist to weigh in on this. My name is Erin Tone and I'm a clinical psychologist. I teach psychology at

Georgia State University. What types of diseases or injuries can cause like a complete and sudden personality change? There's a whole range of possibilities. There are a lot of neurological disorders, particularly those that affect the frontal lobes of the brain that can change people's personality in that they affect their judgment, their ability to control and regulate their emotions. And then there's a whole range of psychiatric disorders that can be associated with at least changes in behavior and emotion that can look like personality changes. So it's a pretty broad range of possibilities.

So someone who's severely depressed may start to look paranoid. Someone who was previously very social could become very withdrawn. There are some brain tumors that lead people to have hallucinatory experiences. Some people with head injuries have these. Schizophrenia is a possibility. In this particular case that I'm dealing with, it was a healthy white male in his early 20s, and he got in some sort of car accident on a dirt road, and he hit his head. He didn't break any bones, but shortly after the wreck, his behavior began to change.

He became a lot more reclusive, and he started telling his family and friends bizarre stories about how he knew what happened to this missing person and he knew that the people responsible were after him. Two years later, he actually committed suicide. Yeah, you know, that would be one of those very, very tricky and difficult diagnostic questions. Simply not having had to go immediately to the hospital for head injury doesn't rule out the possibility that there was subtle, gradually emerging damage. You can also have brain injuries that involve what's called shearing, where the brain essentially bounces back and forth off of the skull, and that can cause symptoms that might take a little bit of time to show up. They may be starting to show

changes in personality and behavior that are very subtle and only seem to make sense as problematic when you're looking back. From what I've gathered from the actual accident, the damage to his head wasn't severe enough for him to be hospitalized. Even though there was no severe damage from the surface, is there still something that could have happened there that could cause this? In some cases, there can be a lot of very subtle damage. And so it may not be something that shows up cleanly and clearly on any kind of imaging, but the functional changes and the timing of those changes can indicate that there are neurological problems. The car wreck he had was on a dirt road and it was at night.

One of the stories that he told his friends and family involved this dirt road at night. And I was curious if, you know, you think there would be any link there with how that manifested? Yeah, you know, it can go either way. Some hallucinations, there's a very clear, obvious connection to real life events. Others, it's very, very difficult to tell a story that makes sense. It's very difficult to know if real life events are getting woven into a delusional experience. Making that kind of decision after the fact is one of the harder things to do and probably a dangerous game. It would be nice to be able to make sense of them and tell a story that's coherent.

In some cases, you can do that, and in some cases, you just can't. And unfortunately, with symptoms like this, there are a lot of cases where don't ever really come up with a satisfactory diagnosis. All of those things that you're describing would lead me to a lot more questions. It is possible that this is someone who was at risk already for schizophrenia or some other psychotic condition and it was just a coincidence that the

car accident happened or that could have been a stressor that triggered it. Schizophrenia would probably be high on the list, but it's also a really rare disorder. It is in that age group more common in males. The age of onset tends to be later for women than for men. Men, late teens, early 20s is most typical. Women, it's a little bit later. Is it one of those things where it's a sudden onset or is it gradual? This is a disorder that starts very, very early. And it's not until late teens, early 20s that it starts to become very evident. It's commonly considered what we call a neurodevelopmental disorder. But that doesn't mean that some people don't show kind of abrupt shifts in behavior.

doesn't mean that some people don't show kind of abrupt shifts in behavior. It's not unusual to see people in an emergency room who are incredibly disoriented because they've never had an experience like that before, and it's utterly terrifying to experience hallucinations or delusions. What people often describe is a pattern, flattening of emotion, isolation. It's a pattern, flattening of emotion, isolation. It can look very much like depression. And that's what gets those around them alarmed and concerned. Once delusions become paranoid, there is a sense that people are out to get them. People may believe things that are overtly odd, or they can be things that are plausible. We never really know the full story, particularly

with someone who has completed a suicide. I think it's valuable to think not only about the story that you do know, but to be mindful that there's probably a lot of story that you don't know too. That could be very helpful in illuminating what ultimately really was going on for this guy. All of the things that we've talked about this morning would be plausible possibilities, but they'd each be possibilities I'd want to hold very, very lightly and be prepared to let go of the second I had any evidence that suggested another path made more sense. So technically, there was a few different ways to explain his behavior. But without a brain scan or several one-on-one sessions, there was no way to know for sure.

Without having been there, it's almost impossible to make any sort of assessment. I tried reaching out to his family again, hoping that maybe they'd have some more insight. His brother agreed to talk to me. Think of the last time you bought something to wear, something to decorate your house, something for your family or friends. What if each time you made a purchase, you got a little something back? With Rakuten, you can. You can earn cash back on just about anything you buy from over 750 stores. If you've ever bought electronics, home decor, fashion and beauty, or booked a trip,

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It's the real definition of control. Visit Mitsubishi-Motors.ca to learn more. As far as my brother goes, all I know is what he told me. And there was a lot of it that some of it, yeah, might have made a little bit of sense, but most of it, the pieces fit together. He had a wreck. In the wreck, he and another guy, they ran off into a culvert, and he banged his head on the windshield

really hard. About a month after that's when all this started. You could tell that there was something scaring him, but at the same time, he actually seemed to be hallucinating. Almost like a schizophrenic episode. But after he started telling these larger-than-life

stories, my parents took him to see a psychiatrist and stuff like that. The psychiatrist said he didn't think there was anything wrong, that he just was suffering from some major depression. And they put him on medication that did not help at all. So how many different times do you think he told you stories about Tara or him, someone being after him? Most of the time, the stories weren't about Tara.

The only time Tara's name was ever mentioned was the first time that this happened. And all the rest of the times, it was people that he thought might have been linked to Tara's disappearance, like Marcus Harper. Really, other than that, he never actually talked about her or how she went missing or anything like that. There were a lot of things that didn't add up with anything he was saying. And then there were some things that would make you go, well, I don't really know. But I mean, whatever it was, he believed in it strongly enough that he went to the GBI. He went to the headquarters of the FBI to talk to them.

He went and sold basically everything he owned to get a plane ticket and spurred Mom and me to fly to Quantico. Do you know any more about the note that he left? Apparently, the GBI still has it in evidence, and they haven't released it to anybody, as far as I know. They haven't released it to my family. They've given some things back to my family, like his wallet and things like that. Even the gun that he used, the GBI still has. They've just been quiet.

They haven't said anything. I haven't heard from them since we went and picked up my brother's possessions that they let us get, and then they really didn't say anything to them. Before this accident, how was he before that? Completely different person um he was extremely outgoing he was really social more often than not you would see him away from the house more than you would see him out the house and then after the accident that completely changed it was the exact opposite he was really reclusive he didn't go anywhere if he did go somewhere he always took

his gun with him. I mean, he was just that paranoid. Did he have any sort of ties to Tara? How did he know her, and why do you think that manifested? He was at a party one night, but apparently Marcus Harper was there. And he had a pistol with him, and he kept trying to get Dwayne to hold the pistol, is what Dwayne said. And Dwayne just never would do it. He said that he thought that that was a gun that was used to kill terror. So he wouldn't touch it. What's your take from it all? You know, he had an accident. There were

five of us had something wrong with the daughters. Either didn't see or didn't think it was serious enough to look into further. I really don't think that anything that he thought was going on was in any way grounded in reality. Like, he would tell me that somebody had sent him a message, and he would be pointing at the blank screen of the phone, and he was seeing something that I wasn't seeing. His brother seemed to think that everything he said just wasn't true. His behavior did seem to match some things the psychologist told me.

Either way, unless one of the people listed in the suicide note decides to talk, there wasn't really much left to look into. Back in episode one, I mentioned a man named Rhett Roberts. He was the son of Tara's landlord, and Tara had stopped by his house for a few minutes before going to the barbecue that night. My grandma's friend Melba told me that Tara stopped at a former student's house in Fitzgerald before going to the barbecue. She couldn't remember his name, but said if she ever did, she'd let me know. But what if Melba was confusing this student with Rhett Roberts?

After 11 years, they could definitely sound similar. I hadn't talked to her in a while, so I figured I'd give her a call and ask her. You know, I remember telling you, you know, that I understood she went to a student's house and didn't remember his name, and I didn't. And you said you had not heard that before. But that was, yeah, that was what we heard from the beginning, you know, that she went there and then went to the principal's house for the cookout. From what I've heard, Tara left the pageant around 7.30 and then she went to her landlord's house and his name was Rhett Roberts. Could this person be that student you were talking about, or is that student somebody else? I remember it was a Roberts, and I couldn't say for sure that it was Rhett. I know it was a Roberts, but I'm not just really positive. Well, I remember now that it was a

Roberts, but like I say, I'm not sure which one it was. So I guess it was Rhett Roberts. Unless the student had the same last name, too. I served as a bailiff for our courts when we have a jury. Because my work when I was working was I was our superior court clerk. And of course, I handled all the court cases and so forth that went up for trial. And I was there one day and two or three of the people who worked for the sheriff's office was there. Anyhow, I said, do you all ever hear anything about Tara Grinstead's case? They said, well, we don't hear a lot, but said, anytime we get anything on it, we check it out. They said,

we don't ignore anything that comes to the sheriff with reference to her case. So they're still actively working on that case. What's the most popular theory going around in town? People have to be saying something. I don't know, but personally, I thought and still think it was somebody she knew that she left with. And I don't really think she was forced because of the situation. I think it was somebody that she knew. I have no idea who it could have been, that she knew. I have no idea who it could have been, but, you know, there were several men suggested, you know, that she had seen and so forth, and I said the main thing that I hated

that came out of this other than her disappearance was most of us who only knew her as a teacher. We just thought she was just one of these quiet little teachers that taught school and went home and stayed home until the next morning and went to school and all. But evidently she had an active life. Chances are it was Rhett Roberts Neville was thinking of. So the whole student scenario was almost all the way ruled out. I reached out to Rhett Roberts on Facebook and asked if he could be interviewed for the podcast. But no response. So a few weeks later I asked him again.

And this time he responded. He said this. I am innocent. I know I didn't do it. God knows I didn't do it. And I have decided to move forward with my life. Then he blocked me. I only asked if I could interview him. I never said anything about being guilty of something. See yourself buying a home one day? Do future you a favor. Open a Questrade first home savings account and help that future

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actors, directors, all kinds of creative people. And we try to have the conversations you have with really, really good friends. The conversations you have when you share a love of something, about ideas, when you want to hear about everything. I feel really lucky to have these conversations. Q with Tom Power. Available now on Spotify. At the end of the last episode, Maurice told me about a man named Joe Hilton. He was friends of Marcus Harper. Because we don't know the exact time

Tara disappeared on Saturday night, in terms of having an alibi, it would have to cover Saturday and Sunday. Marcus Harper spent Sunday with Joe Hilton, and I called Maurice to ask him about it. He was a natural resource officer, like wildlife. Like a game warden?

That's right. I just know that Hilton got a call for deer spotlighting on Sunday evening, and they hooked up with each other, him and Marcus, I got a call for deer spotlighting on Sunday evening. And they hooked up with each other, him and Marcus, and they went riding around Sunday evening. Probably the rural area of Irwin County, probably where that deer spotlighting was going on. It would be Saturday night and Sunday and Sunday night would be what a person probably would think that they need to cover themselves for.

And I'm not saying that that's what he was doing. I'm just saying for two nights in a row, Saturday night he was with somebody and Sunday night he was with somebody. But you would just have to find out and interview Joe to find out who contacted who. Well, I tried that, but no response yet. And as it turns out, Joe isn't with the Natural Resource Department anymore. He's a special agent now, with the GBI.

In a previous episode, I quoted an article from the National Enquirer. It mentioned a police officer from Perry bombarding Tara with phone calls on the day of her disappearance. It also said the officer was married and was having an affair with Tara. They didn't mention him by name, but Heath Dykes was also a police officer from Perry, who was married and made numerous phone calls. So it seemed clear who they may have been inferring. Now before I go any further, let me just get this straight. The National Enquirer is a tabloid, infamous for writing, let's just say, sensational stories.

So knowing that, I wasn't going to jump to any big conclusions off this article. But a few years ago, a producer working with Maurice reached out to the writer of this article and asked him who his source was. See, that guy actually went to Acilla and spent a couple days in Acilla. He said that all the information came from Marcus Harper's lawyer. Because he was Harper's lawyer, he would have inside information to the GBI information. And see, Harper's lawyer, he told this journalist that Dykes was planning to leave his wife for Tara

and changed his mind. This was interesting, but I wasn't completely sold. For what it was worth, I called the writer myself. He asked me not to use his voice, but he told me the same thing Maurice said. All the information was from Marcus Harper's lawyer. Maurice also told me something else interesting. See, Tara felt like that there was too many people who had keys. felt like that there was too many people who had keys. On her kitchen table, still in the plastic,

was a new set of doorknob hardware to be put on that door. She felt like too many people had keys to that door. And I can send you the photograph. In the picture on Tara's kitchen table, there looks to be a new lock. Maybe she was changing it. The neighbor next door had a key, and so did Britt Roberts. But did anybody else? See, in January of 06, I turned this case down from her sister's seat. About third week in February, she contacted me again, and I took it. When I was there, see, Larry has one of these huge RVs. Larry is Tara's sister's husband. He let Marie stay in his RV when he came to Osceola. Right outside of Osceola is a bluegrass park, and you can park RVs.

So he brought his RV down and stuff, and so I was able to stay in the RV. My wife went the one time with me, and I was able to stay in that RV rent-free. They didn't charge me or anything like that. The one night, I think it was a Saturday night that we were there, one night about three o'clock, this big old bright light woke us up and my dog started barking like crazy. It's sort of like the old timey outdoor theater where they had humps between the lanes where you park. Well, this truck was sitting on top of one of those humps, so the lights would be higher up and they were going right through my window. I couldn't see anything and the only thing we heard was the revving of the truck. The next day, Maurice went back home to North Carolina. And after he got settled in, something else strange happened.

I got a phone call about 1.30 in the morning on my landline, not on my cell phone, on my landline. And it was unknown. A blocked number called his house phone. There was a man's voice on the other line he didn't recognize. He said, if you know what's good for you, you stay the hell out of Osceola. The GBI pulled my phone bill. They subpoenaed my phone bill, and it was unknown phone call. You couldn't trace it. Joining me now is Tara's stepmom, Connie Grinstead, and Gary Rothwell,

formerly with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. This is a news clip from 2012. Is there anything new that you can kind of, you know, rest your hat on to say, gee, maybe this thing will be solved? Not really, because we don't know any more than we did in the beginning. The only thing that we feel in our hearts 100% about is that there was foul play involved. Other than that, we really don't know what happened to Tara or even who is responsible. Do you have any feeling, any inkling of who might have done this? Did she ever share with you a concern that some guy was going to, you know, do her in? No, I don't have any idea who is responsible. I've heard all of the persons of interest, all of the names and all of the possibilities, but I honestly don't know what happened to her.

Gary, you worked this case from the beginning and you say that it's one of the cases that continues to haunt you. It's a convoluted case that just maddeningly frustrating. Every time we'd open one door, there'd be several hallways to go down and more doors at the end of that. And it's almost feel like a disservice that we haven't resolved this case for the family and for Tara. But the truth is, Gary, that there were several guys who might have been involved. You know, there was a boyfriend, a police officer who was looking for her the day before she went missing, a student arrested at her house. She was a teacher, who was looking for her the day before she went missing,

a student arrested at her house. She was a teacher, a landlord's son. So you had quite a wealth of possible suspects. Absolutely. The evidence indicates that the person responsible for Tara's disappearance is very likely someone that knew her. So we had to look at people that were close to her, and there were a lot of them. But we have not been able to link any of those people to her disappearance.

It's in the box there. That name is in the box. The name's in the box, but we don't know which one it is. The name is in the box. At least we think so. But whose name's really in that box? We've all heard everyone they mentioned, but if the GBI swabbed over 200 people, who are the rest?

I set out to search for anybody else out there. Anyone that could have fallen under the radar. So I pulled up archives, news clips, blog posts, but there wasn't a single other name out there. But then I went back to where this whole thing started. That website. Websleuths. And that's where this whole thing started. That website. Websleuths. And that's where I found what I was looking for. On the forum for Tara Grinstead, on May 11th, 2008,

someone posted Jim Hickey, software salesman from Atlanta, who took Tara to dinner in early October 2005. Did he visit Tara the Friday before she disappeared? Who is Jim Hickey? I looked him up on Facebook and sent him a message, asking if I could talk to him about Tara. He said yes and we arranged a phone call. Next time on Up and Vanished.

She had text messaged me the night she disappeared. I got a text message from her. It said I'm cold. Thank you.