Up and Vanished - The Trial Series: What's next?

Episode Date: March 12, 2019

As of now, Ryan Duke’s trial is set for April 1, 2019. Payne and the UAV team talk to some of their most informed sources to prepare for what’s next. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone else close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. It's something where it's just too close. You know, like the Dukes kid, not Ryan, but Bo. You know, his first cousin's my kid's pediatrician. Ryan, I knew Ryan. I actually liked Ryan. I dated a girl that graduated with them.

They'd come to our house on the weekends, and we'd drink and stuff. My last connection with those guys was, I mean, and when I say connection now we were never friends or anything. It's Osceola. You know, we had similar friends or, you know, running the same cliques and this and that. There's only a couple cliques here. Osceola's a weird place because, you know, it's this big around. So everybody already is all in your business and stuff already, whether you want them to be or not.

And, you know, something like this only sort of magnifies that. But back to the fair trial, I mean, can Ron and Bo get a fair trial anywhere? Could O.J. have got, I mean, granted, the O.J. case, obviously, you know, the case of the century, that was last century. O.J. couldn't have got, I mean granted the OJ case obviously, you know the case of the century that was last century OJ couldn't have got a fair case anywhere and again this is

this case is OJ here though, you know 10 years ago today marked the last time anybody officially police are calling this a missing persons case GBI officials say investigators Ten years ago today marked the last time anybody in Tennessee or talking to Tara Grinstead. Officially, police are calling this a missing persons case. GBI officials say investigators say it's a $80,000 reward is being offered for impolition. Where is Tara Grinstead? From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished, the investigation of Tara Grinstead.

I'm your host, Payne Lindsey. The voice at the top of the episode is that of Luke Roberts from the Ocilla Star. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey. Like he said, there's only so many clicks. With everything being so close to home, literally, I wanted to know what Luke thought about the likelihood of having a fair trial in his hometown. Last time I even saw him was probably, I'd guess, a year to a year and a half before all this even happened. And I knew at that point they were still tied. I'm guessing the minute that the two of you are involved in something like this, that weird stuff starts happening, and you get questions in your head and stuff. And then I think it's been almost proven and well known that, you know,

after it happened, Ryan sort of went on that downward trajectory, a spiral that was no good for anybody. Bo appears to have held it together, but you know, it looks like, too, they split, you know. Bo went into the Army, ends up getting married and this and that, and commits a crime. And I think Ryan tried the Army kick and, you know, just more or less fell into

what sounds to me like a you know a path of addiction and stuff so I'm guessing you know the severance started pretty early on And I would guess now you know once the once everything came out then I Mean you have to be sworn enemies at this point What good is? He to you or you to him?

Or like, nah, that's public enemy number one type deal. So I don't believe it was very long after that, you know, the split at least began and is what it is now, which I don't believe would be friendly terms if, you know, they cross paths somewhere. One crazy dude, one mellow dude, and whatever happened, happened. And now we just got to see if we can figure out

if they can even convict Ron. The attorneys will, you know, they're going to have to be on top of their stuff, obviously. We've got convictions for at least the concealing of the death. The other, you know, more serious charges, that's something, you know, where people are going to have different opinions on that. I'm not, there's no way I would ever, I know that this is going to happen, no way, no way. The way everything's gone already, anybody that says that would be out of their damn mind.

I could see, I mean, I could see it go both ways. People around here, if you're on that jury, you want to convict somebody for that, it's human nature. I mean, we already know what Ryan's defense is is going to be i've spoke with his attorney these aren't these aren't backwoods lawyers or anything i mean this is sort of real deal stuff all it takes is one on a jury with reasonable doubt that's all it has the community is ready for it to get underway the community is ready for it to to come. The community's ready for it to come to some type of conclusion. And hopefully you know that justice is served.

But there are doubts about that. April will be a pretty big month around here. For me, I'll be sitting in a courthouse every day. I'm guessing 70% of it's going to be pretty interesting. There'll probably be times where you want to take a nap. The prosecution already said that they expected it to take them two to two and a half weeks to even present their case. You've got to think the defense is going to be along about the same time line. So we're jury selection for this

thing. Who knows? I mean really, who knows? A jury selection is tricky wherever it's held. I have an attorney friend who I spoke to, we actually reported this when I asked him about the fair trial deal because they just announced the date of the trial a couple months back and then coincidentally the same week you've got the Oxygen show that came out. You got a Dateline show that was maybe a week before that. So, you know, I hadn't even started, and the attention's already revving up.

He said it, you know, with any jury selection, there's gonna be two or three people on there that probably won't, they want to get selected, whether that be they think they can do a TV interview after, you know. There's been people on juries who, the minute they came off the jury they called a publicist and stuff and they've gone and did a makeover and you know what i'm saying

this isn't something you want to piggyback off of if you live here you want this you want this shit to be over with i mean you do but back to the fair trial i that's going to be up to the prosecution and the defense to sit there and, I mean, they get strikes and everything. A lot of that's on them. As far as the judge moving it, that's his decision. And I mean, if he feels that he's within his right to do so and that Ryan and Bo can in fact get a fair trial here, then where are you gonna move it?

If you move it to Valdosta, which is an hour away, does that do you that much good? Because I'm pretty sure people follow it down there. If you move it to somewhere in this court, if you go to Tipton, you came through Tipton, right? It's a hop, skip, and a jump away. Like, nobody there knows about it. So, I mean, I get the point, you know, of the judge,

sort of, I mean, that's sort of his you know, of the judge sort of. I mean, that's sort of his argument. Who doesn't know about it? And the fair trial questions, one that I don't think, no one can answer that. No one can answer it until you get your approval and until they get to sit up there and, you know, go through the process. you know, go through the process. I mean, honestly, with a case like this, jury selection stuff is a lot of times how people come back and get an appeal in the future. It's just one more, it's one method or avenue

that you can use to, you know, a last ditch effort or something. So again, in a way, it's speculation completely as to your opinion on if they can receive a fair trial. So I would imagine almost the whole county is going to get a summons. Osceola does seem overwhelmingly colored by rumors, publicity, and family connections. But I also understand Luke's perspective. The alternate options for trial locations, Valdosta, Tifton, these places are really close by.

And there's definitely a good chance that citizens of these places also know a whole lot about the case already. Like Luke said, for this area, this is the OJ case, at least publicity-wise. And when it comes to the jury pool, it turns out Luke wasn't far off. Last week, 600 people in Irwin County received a list of questions to see if they were eligible to be on the jury. It's got some pretty specific questions and a couple familiar names. So I asked Rob to read out some of the questionnaire for you. So I asked Rob to read out some of the questionnaire for you. In the Superior Court of Irwin County, State of Georgia, versus Ryan Alexander Duke. Juror Questionnaire.

The information that you provide in this questionnaire will be used by the court and the parties to select a qualified jury in this case. That is, a jury that can render a verdict fairly and impartially based upon the evidence offered at trial. Both parties are entitled to a fair and impartial jury. This questionnaire and the jury selection process is not meant to be intrusive, rather it serves the important function of ensuring that a fair and impartial jury is selected to hear and decide this case. It is very important that you answer these questions as completely and accurately as you can. Please print or write legibly with a pen and answer the questions as candidly as possible. There are no right or wrong

answers to these questions. Honesty and candor are of the utmost importance. The integrity of the process depends upon your truthfulness. Please bear the following instructions in mind. It is important that you formulate the answers to these questions yourself, without consideration of other people's feelings of knowledge. The court thanks you for your attention and willingness to participate in the jury selection process, an important duty of citizenship in our democracy. Do you know or have you had any contact or relationship at any time with the defendant in this case, Ryan Alexander Duke, or any member of his family?

To your knowledge, do any of your close personal friends or relatives know Ryan Alexander Duke, or have had any contact or relationship of any kind with him. In this case, Mr. Duke is being represented by attorneys Ashley B. Merchant and John B. Merchant of the Merchant Law Firm, P.C. in Marietta, and John S. Gibbs III of Atlanta. Do you know or are you related to or have you ever been represented by any of these attorneys or any lawyers or other person associated with any of these attorneys? The prosecutors in this case are Irwin County Assistant District Attorney J.D. Hart, District

Attorney of the Tift Judicial Circuit C. Paul Bowdown, and District Attorney of Ben Hill County, Brad Rigby. Do you know, or are you related to, or have you ever been represented or prosecuted by any of these attorneys, or any lawyer, or other person associated with any of these attorneys? Do you have any knowledge of this case, gained from any source? Do you have any knowledge of this case gained from any source? Please check all that apply. Television, radio, newspaper, magazine, internet, social media, family or friends,

overheard discussions, or other. How familiar, if at all, are you with this case? I have never heard of this case. I recognize Mr. Duke's name, but do not recall any details. I remember the basic subject of this case, but not much else. I recall this case and can describe some details. I have followed this case fairly closely. This case will draw a high degree of media attention. If selected as a juror, you would be prohibited from reading or watching media accounts of the trial, consulting external sources, doing any research about the case, including on the Internet, and discussing the case with other people in any oral, written, or electronic form.

While you are a juror, you will not be permitted to post anything about the case on social media sites such as Twitter or Facebook, and will not be permitted to publish anything about the case on a blog or any other online forum. Would you be able to abide by these rules for the home of the following persons? Tara Faye Grinstead, Ryan Duke, Bo Dukes Have any of the following persons visited in your home? Tara Faye Grinstead, Ryan Duke, Bo Dukes Grinstead, Ryan Duke, Beau Dukes. Did you or an immediate member of your family participate in any beauty pageants from January 1st, 1995 to December 31st, 2005? Have you ever been questioned

by any member of law enforcement, any private investigator, or bounty hunter in connection with the disappearance of Tara Faye Grinstead, including but not limited to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, Osceola Police Department, Irwin County Sheriff's Department, Maurice Godwin, and Robert Hardiman? Did you ever provide a DNA sample, either voluntarily or subject to a search warrant

for comparison in the investigation into the disappearance of Tara Faye Grinstead. Did you personally participate in any search for Tara Faye Grinstead from October 24, 2005 through February 22, 2017? Did you personally report any information or tips to any member of law enforcement, any private investigator, or bounty hunter in connection with the disappearance of Tara Faye Grinstead, including but not limited to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, Osceola Police Department, Irwin County Sheriff's Department, Maurice Godwin, and Robert Hardiman. Did you ever personally report

any information or tips to any other person or persons, including but not limited to America's Most Wanted and FindTerra.com? Are you now or have you ever been a friend or follower on any social media sites, including but not limited to Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, of any of the following persons. Brooke Sheridan, Karen O'Neill, Anita Gaddis, Dr. Larry Gaddis, Dusty Vassie, Maria Woods-Haber, formerly known as Maria Hewlett, Maurice Godwin, Payne Lindsey, Ashley Merchant, Marcus Harper, Anthony Vickers, Dixie Hudson, Zach Jarad, WALB News, WSB News. Are you now or have you ever been employed by Hudson Farms? Have you ever been on the property owned by Randy Hudson located at 605 Highway 129 Fitzgerald, Georgia, commonly known as Hudson Farms or Fitzgerald Farms Pecan Orchard. Yes or no? Get ready for Las Vegas-style action at BetMGM, the king of online casinos.

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to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to any operating agreement with iGamingOntario. Hey, I'm Tom Power. I'm the host of the CBC podcast, Q with Tom Power. I get to talk to artists from all over the world, writers, musicians, actors, directors, all kinds of creative people. And we try to have the conversations you have with really, really good friends. The conversations you have when you share a love of something,

about ideas, when you want to hear about everything. The bond hearing for Ryan Duke happened on February 11th of this year, exactly one month ago. During a bond hearing, you're expecting to hear whether or not the detained party will be released for the duration of the trial and all the relevant information pertaining to that decision. But this bond hearing was quite a spectacle. Honestly, it felt more like a Tara Grinstead tell-all. Rumors were discussed, DNA was mentioned, and the lead case agent for the GBI was basically cross-examined by the defense. Here's Philip Holloway to discuss how abnormal this thing really was. I really don't know how other to describe it than just a hot mess.

In addition to Heath Dyke's DNA mixed with Tara's blood and some sketchy touch DNA, which is oftentimes unreliable, from Tara and Ryan both being on a latex glove, along with what's probably some other DNA that can't be ruled out as Bo's or someone else's. There was a latex glove found at at the residence in in front of her house the dna on the glove is a match to ryan duke ryan's dna was not found anywhere inside of that home correct no he dykes semen was found inside of that home yes okay um Okay. Mixed with Tara's blood, correct? I don't know if it was mixed with her blood or not. I know that his semen was found on her bedsheets, yes. What did we really learn? Well, we learned that there was a lot of stuff that needed to be followed up on, and it just wasn't. The GBI interviewed Ryan at least twice after he had counsel.

That's a no-no. That's unconstitutional. On top of that, these unconstitutional interviews were not even documented. It wasn't recorded. It wasn't written about. The DA apparently didn't even know that it happened until the defense had to call them out on it. So just what's going on in this case? What is the GBI doing? I don't know what it says about the GBI or what's going on with them when the case agent doesn't even sign in at the jail because he wants to go and interview an inmate sort of on the down low. That just doesn't happen. It's not supposed to happen anyway,

and it just raises a lot of questions that, quite frankly, don't need to be raised. If I were the prosecutor, I would be livid about that because they're shooting themselves in the foot. Another way the prosecutor, I think, sort of shot themselves in the foot a little bit is by calling this case agent, Agent Shadel, as a state's witness at the defense's bond hearing. Let me get you to state your name for the record. Sure, it's Jason Shadel. And how are you currently employed? I'm a special agent with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. The defense was able to use this to get into all sorts of stuff that's otherwise inadmissible. Originally, at the beginning of this, the defense objected saying, look, this is all irrelevant. And it really was

irrelevant for purposes of bond. But the prosecutor said, no, we want to get into it. The judge let them get into it. They were able to get into multiple levels of hearsay, second and third and fourth levels of hearsay. Basically, all these rumors that were floating around in Osceola and Irwin County way back in 2005, in the days, weeks, and months after Tara disappeared, all of these rumors apparently were documented in the GBI's case file. Things like that would never see the light of day in a trial because of the rules of evidence and because they're either not relevant or they were just unfounded. But because of the can of worms that the prosecutor opened up by putting up Agent

Shadel, all of this stuff came in and we heard all sorts of salacious things, all sorts of things that had to be really, really hurtful for the family to listen to. There was all sorts of inadmissible evidence, things that would never come out at trial that the defense was able to basically get a deposition about. There was apparently some investigative effort to track down rumors about Tara's love life. Okay. So those were the types of things that came up in this courtroom. And I was scratching my head saying, why in the world are we talking about rumors about Tara's love life in 2019 at a bond hearing? They have nothing to do with bond. They have nothing to do with anything. They never would see the light of day, most likely at a trial. But here we are talking about them in a public courtroom with live feed going out all over the internet. This is stuff that is going everywhere that never should

have seen the light of day. You know, the prosecutor pointed out, you know, hearsay is admissible in these hearings. And that may be true, but it's only true to a point and it's only admissible if it is still reliable. And so a mere rumor and things that were speculated about in the general public in 2005 have no place in a bond hearing. All of these bombshells that were dropped in this bond hearing should never have happened because the only things that are relevant is the following factors. The judge has to decide if the defendant poses a significant risk of fleeing the jurisdiction of the court or failing to appear in court when required. Secondly, the judge has to decide whether or not the defendant poses a significant threat

or danger to any person, to the community, or to any property in the community. Thirdly, the judge has to decide whether or not the defendant poses a significant risk of committing any felony pending trial. And lastly, whether or not the defendant poses a significant risk of intimidating witnesses or otherwise obstructing the administration of justice. So how in the hell all of this stuff about Tara's love life and DNA and all this stuff, how that fits into these factors, I really don't know. If there wasn't enough damaging pretrial publicity before this bond hearing, there certainly is now, and this really adds ammunition to the defense's case.

If they ever have to take this case up on appeal, that the venue should be moved. that the venue should be moved. I think that if I were the judge, I would go out of my way to make sure that I rein the parties in, keep them in bounds, and make sure that a trial doesn't turn into a no-holes-barred free-for-all like what we saw at a mere bond hearing. It's sort of uncommon for bond to be set in murder cases in Georgia, but it's not unheard of. If the judge ultimately says, you know, this is a person who's got a very serious charge hanging over their head. It's a mandatory life sentence if he's convicted. I think he's got a strong incentive to either flee the jurisdiction of the court or they're a danger to the community. Those would be reasons why the judge could deny bond. And I'm not at all

surprised by the fact that he didn't because one way or the other, I think everybody knows, and even the defense is conceding that Ryan was involved in Tara's death. Ryan is simply saying, I wasn't the person who killed her. So I think they're conceding that he was involved in a really, really bad crime. So that in and of itself, I think, would be enough to justify the judge denying bond. Mr. Duke, the court's going to deny your bond. I'm going to find that you present a significant risk of intimidating witnesses or otherwise obstructing the administration of justice.

And I'm unable to find that you don't present that risk. So that's the basis for the denial of the bond. Basically what happened was the defense put up Ryan's brother. Okay. And basically the brother is going to testify to these, to the, basically the four factors that he doesn't pose a significant risk of fleeing the jurisdiction.

In other words, he's going to show up for court. He doesn't pose a danger to anybody. He's not a risk of committing a felony, and he poses no risk of intimidating witnesses. Those are the basic four factors, and that's why they put the brother up as a witness to testify to those factors. But the prosecutor took the extra step on their own when it came their time to put up evidence. They actually called the lead case agent because they wanted him to say that basically they thought he was not a good candidate for bond. Well, there were some objections that were sustained, but then they wanted to get into a little bit of the facts of the case.

And that's OK because that is relevant, again, to a point for the court to determine whether the person poses, for example, a danger to the community. But they went way beyond that. They started getting into all the minutiae from this giant case file. And it went on and on and on. To start with, the defense was saying, look, you know, judge, this is all irrelevant to a bond hearing. The judge said, look, I'm going to let it in. It's a bond hearing and there's no jury here, so we're going to go for it. And they did. So I think that the defense had to prepare a cross-examination on the fly. I really don't think they were expecting to be able to get into all that and to be able to lock this witness down to a certain version of his testimony the way that they did. There's so much that you could talk about from this bond hearing that I really don't

know where to leave off, but I think it's important to talk about indigency. Here you have a case where you have a defendant who is clearly indigent. At one point, he was represented by the public defender because he is indigent. He was able to take advantage of an opportunity to be represented by private counsel who are operating pro bono, meaning for free, but it's still up to the court to ensure that due process prevails. And it's illogical to say that a defendant waives his access to public funds for his defense because they need money for investigators. They need money for expert witnesses. The judges shut him down, said, no, he's got private counsel. Therefore, we're not going to pay for any of these other costs. Paradoxically, if he had stayed with

the public defender, presumably he would have access to some of this public money. But you don't give up your rights to due process simply because you take advantage of a lawyer's willingness to work for you pro bono. Because you choose not to have the public defender represent you, it doesn't mean that you're in any less need of being able to put up a defense. doesn't mean that you're in any less need of being able to put up a defense. So I think it was a mistake, not just for the judge to deny the funds, but I really think it was a mistake for the prosecutor to weigh in on that and to take a position and say, look, judge, he's given up that right because he's got private counsel. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. I think the prosecutor should have stayed out of that. It's just illogical to say that a defendant waives access to public funds for his defense if he elects to have counsel

outside the Georgia public defender system. Well, there was one part that really struck out to me. I went back and watched this a couple of times, but there was an exchange between Ms. Merchant, defense counsel, and Agent Shadel, the lead case agent. And she effectively asked him, you know, other than the, let's just call it a confession for this discussion, other than the confession, do you have any proof that Ryan committed murder? And he essentially said, no, we don't. We have evidence of a coverup, but we don't have any evidence of murder. So the defense is going to basically try to prove that this confession, if that's what it is, was a false confession. And they're going to try to explain to a jury false confessions are real, and we know they are,

and they're going to try to say that this was one of those cases where the confession was false. And that's where I believe the defense is going to go with this trial. I was really surprised by this. This bond hearing went off the rails quickly. And I'll be candid with you. I believe that it surprised the defense. I don't think they thought they were going to be allowed to get into all that stuff. But once they saw that they could, they basically turned it into an extended deposition.

So they don't have many opportunities before a trial to get a witness on the stand under oath and to lock them down to a version of the event. So when they got testimony out of Shadel, where he admitted that absent this statement by Ryan, or let's just call it a confession for these purposes, absent that, he admitted they don't have any evidence of murder. They have evidence of a cover-up, but according to his testimony, under oath in court at a bond hearing, no less, they don't have evidence of murder beyond his statement. So if that is unreliable, if that's false, if a jury is not going to believe that it really was a confession, they've got a big problem.

Prosecution, on the other hand, I really don't know other than they're going to try to throw everything against the wall and see what sticks. They have a mess on their hands. We saw that from the bond hearing. I really hope that they can clean this up for trial and present their case in an orderly, efficient way, a way that comports with the rules of evidence and in a way that makes sense. If there is a conviction in this case, all of these issues, indigency, change of venue, these are all going to be self-inflicted wounds that the prosecutor has caused, and they're going to have to answer for all of these things if there's an appeal. If you just go ahead and give him some money for

an investigator, you agree to change the venue like they originally did in this case, those are giant issues that will never be part of an appeal. As much as the prosecutor I'm sure wants to get a conviction in this case, I'm equally sure they don't want to have to try this case twice. And that's what's going to happen if it comes back on appeal because they've acted foolishly by opposing a change of venue and opposing an indigent defendant's right to have access to funds for their defense. If this bond hearing was any preview for what a trial may look like, it's going to be a mess. It is a very warm, kind community.

One of the things that we're really known for is our football. We've been to state twice. Two years in a row, we actually play the same team, and unfortunately, they beat us two years in a row. We've got a phenomenal school system here. My full name is Kathy Stott. I am the president of the Ocella Chamber of Commerce here in town. We've gotten a lot of negative publicity, but publicity is still

publicity. We've been put on the map. Now what we choose to do with that is what we do here within our city. Are you making any preparations for the trial that's upcoming? There will be a lot of people here, and there will be people who need a lot of services. So why would we want to send those people to another community to take their tax dollars there when they, in fact, can use that here? The streets around here roll up at a certain time of day. That's like any other small city.

But we will need some services that are not necessarily there on a regular basis, but we will need it at that time. It's a very sad situation. Very, very sad. We'd like to put it behind us. We'd like to say, and I don't mean forget it, because you can't forget something like that, but we'd like for this to be over, put it behind us and move forward. There's going to be some eye-opening information that's going to come out. I hope that it does not hurt and affect a lot of lives and I think it can in our community. A lot of people's names are going to be run through the mud during the trial. I mean we know about two but I think, with my theory,

I think there'd be some names thrown around. And it can devastate some people. And I hope that's not the case, and I hope that what we see and what we've heard is exactly what happened, and nobody else is involved, and we move forward. But I don't think that you can do what happened and keep it covered up

if not more people helped keep it covered up. So that's a sad thing. It's a very close-knit community. It has a very unique charm about it. I don't think that enough people come here to see what the town is all about, but it is very unique, very family oriented. We're an agribusiness and that's what most of our community is made up is farms. And people in farming are salt of the earth people. They'll give you their shirt off their back and they'll help you in any way they can.

We've got the only cotton gin in the state of Georgia that is strictly owned by farmers. All the others have investors. Come and see Paul Vineyards. It is the largest guppinan and muscadine vineyard in the world. They produce the most juice to other people who made wine. It is just now that they have decided to start making their own wine. So where else can you say that you have the largest vineyard, the Scuffman and Muscadine Vineyard, than here in Ocilla? We are known for the Dave Prater Fest that we have here in town to celebrate his life. Back in the 60s, there were Sam and Dave. They were great. If you followed the

60s, wonderful music. Soul Man, Hold On, I'm Coming. Dave Prater was born and raised here in Ocella. The Sweet Potato Festival is always the last weekend in October. Unfortunately, it's always the Georgia Bar Game. The Sweet Potato Parade starts in the morning, and then the festival is up at the old school. People come out to see that. Some of the things that are happening here are a lot of fun. Come and join us. Come see them. The trial of Ryan Duke was supposed to start next month,

and as of right now, that's still happening. But just like everything else in this case, The trial of Ryan Duke was supposed to start next month. And as of right now, that's still happening. But just like everything else in this case, I'll believe it when I see it. Next week, join us for a Q&A episode. The phone number is 770-545-6411. Again, that's 770-545-6411. If you have any questions for Maurice Godwin, now would be a great time to call in. He'll be joining us next week.

Thanks for listening, guys. I'll see you soon. Up and Vanished is an investigative podcast produced for Tenderfoot TV by Payne Lindsay, Mike Rooney, Christina Dana, and me, Meredith Stedman, with new episodes every Monday. Executive producers Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright. Additional production by Resonate Recordings, as well as Mason Lindsay. Voice over by Rob Ricotta. Our intern is Hallie Badal. Original score by Makeup and Vanity said. Thank you. or you can visit our website, upandvanished.com, where you can join in on our discussion board. If you're enjoying Up and Vanished,

please tell a friend, family member, or coworker about it. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening.