Upstream - Gift Economies with Robin McKenna

Episode Date: December 3, 2019

What do an indigenous ceremony in Canada, Burning Man, and an occupied salami factory in Rome have in common? They are all expressions of the gift economy featured in a new documentary by Robin McKenna, the guest of this Upstream conversation. Robin McKenna has worked in film for twenty years on several projects, including The Take with Naomi Klein (a film about workers who take over the means of production in Argentina in the wake of an economic collapse). Drawing inspiration from Lewis Hyde’s book, The Gift, Robin McKenna set out to chronicle gift cultures around the world that are challenging the logic of global capitalism. The result is her first feature-length documentary — GIFT, which is out now in theaters across the United States and Canada. Gift-giving is a radical act of resistance to the status quo. It requires trust, being open to receiving, and confronting traditional notions of wealth, ownership, and property. In this conversation we share stories of gifting, imagine what a more gift-oriented world might look like, and trace out the pathways to that transition. We spoke with Robin while she was visiting San Francisco for a primier of the film. To learn more about the film GIFT visit: giftitforwardproject.com  This episode of Upstream was made possible with support from listeners like you. Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

Oh You are listening to Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. I think one of the things with the gift economy is there's a kind of misconception that it only exists in these exotic places like Burning Man or indigenous cultures or fireway villages in Africa, you know. And I think a family is kind of like the first simplest version of a gift economy. And hospitality is a very simple example of it.

I mean, there's all kinds of examples in whatever community we live in. You are listening to Upstream. I'm Della Duncan. And I'm Robert Raymond. This is a conversation with Robin McKenna, the director, producer, and writer of Gift, a documentary chronicling gift-based cultures around the world, challenging the logic of global capitalism. We spoke with her while she was visiting San Francisco for a premiere of the film. Support for Upstream comes in part from the Guerrilla Foundation and from listeners like you.

We are releasing this interview on Giving Tuesday, so if it leaves you feeling inspired to gift-give yourself, please consider donating at upstreampodcast.org forward slash support. Thank you. Welcome. Welcome to Upstream. Thank you. I'm wondering if you can start by introducing yourself for our listeners. So my name is Robin McKenna. I'm a documentary filmmaker from Canada. I grew up in Montreal. I've been making documentaries for like 20 years, but this is my

first feature. I've worked on other people's films. Like I worked on a film called The Take in Argentina with Naomi Klein about the worker-occupied factory movement after the economic crisis. And I have a long-term film about ayahuasca that I'm also finishing now. And the film that you're currently touring for, could you introduce that film for us? What is it about and what's the title? So the film is called Gift. It's inspired by a book called The Gift by Lewis Hyde, which has kind of become a classic. It came out almost 40 years ago, and it's been loved by many artists and writers like Margaret Atwood, Zadie Smith, David Foster Wallace, Bill Viola, and all different kind of creative

people. And the book started when Lewis Hyde was was a young poet and he was asking himself why do i spend so much time writing these poems when my landlord doesn't care about my poems the day my rent is due and he started thinking about this idea of like the transformative gift how creative work operates according to a different logic and it comes to us and kind of can wake up our own gifts. So he's playing on this double meaning of the gift. When we say that someone's gifted, we have gifts that come from somewhere outside ourselves. And he's also looking at these systems of gift exchange throughout time and in stories. Okay, so let's talk about those systems for a moment. so this may be in the world of economics considered the gift economy perhaps um can you talk about what is the gift economy or gift economies as you see them how

would you describe them and like what are they well a gift economy just operates according to a different logic than the the market economy that we're we're so kind of indoctrinated in our culture. Lewis High talks about how one of the cardinal differences between a gift and a commodity exchange is that gift creates connection and relationship between people, and gift exchange creates community between people. So the idea is like if I go to the store and I pay for something, I put down my money and there's no connection remains between me and the person I bought it from. And with a gift,

a gift creates a kind of connection. So a gift economy is a kind of system that operates according to that logic of sharing. And, you know, there's an element of risk when we give a gift. So it's not a barter. It's not like a deal where I'll give you something and I know there's an element of risk when we give a gift so it's not a barter it's not like a deal where i'll give you something and i know that something equal will come back to me but there is a kind of reciprocity that operates in these cultures where the idea is the gift moves in a circle and eventually kind of things continue to flow and come back to you. So one thing that's interesting, you're saying gift economy or even, sorry, you said gift exchange and reciprocity. So, you know, what is, like I'm thinking about the exchange economy versus the gift economy. So how does gift relate

to trade or exchange? Is gift always something that's one-sided, like you give a gift and then that's a gift? Or does gift giving in these systems, are they more transactional or exchange oriented? What's the relationship there in your mind about exchange versus gift? Well, I think, yeah, that primary difference is that idea of risk, right? It's like we give a gift and there's no guarantee of something being given in return. Whereas even something like barter is an exchange where there's kind of a deal. It's like you give something,

but you know what you're going to get back. So in a gift system, the idea is that wealth is meant to circulate. So for example, I have a story of a potlatch in the film, which is an indigenous tradition in the Pacific Northwest where it's kind of a feast of giving. And the idea is the more you give, the more wealthy you are, and kind of the more status you have in the culture. So they say we were giving everything away to become wealthy. potlatch was actually outlawed by the colonial powers in Canada and I believe in the US too and it's it's interesting to ask like why was that idea so threatening to the colonial project right I mean the whole system of settlement was based on the idea of private property and ownership so that idea of kind of burning your wealth giving everything, and operating according to a whole different system

where wealth keeps circulating and people get fed, things are shared in a different way. It was very upsetting for the people who came here. Yeah, it makes me wonder about the mentality or the paradigm that comes with gift exchange or gift economies. So one of the things you mentioned was you said, you know, having wealth by giving it away. So what are some of the other attributes of a gift paradigm or mentality that you noticed? Well, I think there's an element of trust that has to come when we're engaging in gifting, you know, and there's moments in the film that are always very interesting for people where simple gifts are being given. Like there's a artist who has a project where people are invited to take a flower and gift it to a stranger. And you see people on the street

trying to make this giving and receiving happen. And there's, you know, there's a lot of kind of resistance from people who are like, um, no, it's okay, you know, and it lot of kind of resistance from people who are like um no it's okay you know and it shows our kind of like you know there's something that I think we're raised with is this feeling that we're supposed to be independent and self-sufficient and earn what we have and the idea of like fearlessly and kind of gracefully giving and receiving is not something we're brought up with you know so there's an element of vulnerability to it, and there can be like shame around that. But I mean, of course, it's about a kind of like, yeah, a spirit of generosity and also a trust that by putting things out there, they'll continue to circulate and

feeling like things will, you'll be taken care of in a different way. And just to zoom out for a second, could you tell us about the film? Like what, how is it framed? What are the stories within it? Because I don't think we've heard that yet. The film is kind of an essay film, but it's, I decided to do it through following characters in four different places. So the ideas are kind of woven through the characters' stories. So there's a story of a young guy hosting a potlatch in BC, just north of Vancouver Island, who's saving up all his wealth for four years in order to give it all away. And that was the first story I came across. And, you know, I live

in Canada, and this is someone who lives in the same country as me, but who's like, just operating according to such a radically different system of values. And that was something I found kind of amazing in this 21st century of total commercialization, you know. So there is a Burning Man story. There's a young woman in San Francisco who's a social worker in her everyday life, who's building a honeybee art car to give away honey and mead at Burning Man and she's spending all her weekends and free time working on this project and kind of asking herself like why am I spending so much time on something that's going to last for such a short time but who's kind of like involved in the Burning Man community and has

found connections and relationships with people that have lasted throughout the year and really changed her life. So she wants to kind of contribute within that system. Then there's a artist named Li Mingwei, who's Taiwanese and based in Paris, who a lot of his work is, it's like in the field of relational aesthetics. And a lot of it is around this idea of gifting and connections between strangers so we follow a couple of projects of his one with the flowers and one called sonic blossom which is this kind of beautiful exchange of a song in a museum which is one of the most kind of emotional moments of the film and then the last story is in Rome. There's an occupied former salami factory on the industrial outskirts of Rome being inhabited by 200 migrants and precarious workers,

which is protected by a barricade of art. So all this incredible work by some very well-known artists and some kind of muralists and street artists is everywhere on the walls of this place and they call it the world's first inhabited museum the museum of the other and elsewhere so it's like it's kind of a a situationist idea of they say they're using the value of the art market versus the value of real estate to kind of subvert this idea of the value of the property and now the art

has created a different value for this property so the people are you know by living in this occupation they're kind of in resistance to the paradigm of real estate speculation and the housing crisis in Rome so it's kind of an amazing community half the people who live there are Roma so there's families who live there and there's many children who live there are Roma, so there's families who live there and there's many children who live there. And we follow two of the little girls who live in the place and kind of discover that world through their eyes. So let's stay with Rome for a moment and the occupation of this building. How do kind of occupied buildings relate to the gift economy or how did you see the gift economy playing out in that

example? Yeah, I think it's not such an obvious one. But I think, you know, the danger of an idea like this is that it's all kind of like beautiful and nice. But it's like, how does the idea work in relation to the current political systems that exist and the moment in time that we live in? And I think, you know, bringing in this story, which is more about a real resistance, you know, where people are in a very precarious situation, but they're doing something that's making a strong commentary on the whole situation of real estate speculators and developers driving up the cost of property, which is a theme that people here can relate to and in cities

everywhere, right? So I think I like that idea of the gift as an act of resistance and also of imagination. You know, it's like these people have created something that's totally other and it kind of, it's creating this possibility of imagining different spaces and ways we can relate to each other. That's very kind of beautiful. What is your personal experience with GIFs and GIFt economy and maybe how that related to your inspiration? Well, I kind of realized while I was making the film that even when I was younger, like when I was 18, I did an exchange program and went to live in Peru and Cusco and the Andes.

And I was doing a research project about Inca traditions and what was left of them in the Andean indigenous communities now. And I was learning about this tradition of they call it Aini or reciprocity, which is like a very gifty principle that, you know, when a couple gets married, the whole community comes together and builds a house for them. And when they have their wedding, people bring a pig and, you know, and that's just a way of that, a way that reciprocity operates within the culture, that you know that when your time comes, that people are going to come and support you. And it also extended to the idea of reciprocity with the land, the mountains, and the kind of offerings that

people made and the prayers. So it's not just a kind of like community or economic system, but it's kind of extends to something more on the level of spirit too. I also lived in a bookstore in Paris called Shakespeare and Company, which was this crazy, an old american kind of anarchist communist guy around the store and he used to let young people live in the store they would help out with the work now and then they were supposed to read a book every day and write their autobiography and he was really trying to kind of encourage this culture of young writers and a love for books and part of the reason i i love that place is because it had this crazy, I mean, it was a very kind of chaotic place, but it was a kind of gift economy, you know. So I think I've just always

like been drawn to situations where it's like things, there must be a different way of organizing things than the one, the dominant one that we're all indoctrinated with, you know. And these kind of whimsical places and the poetry of them and the connection between people was always intriguing to me. So let's go back to the potlatch again. So you shared the story from the film. I'm wondering if you can zoom out and just look at potlatch in general, because it is often used as an example of alternative economics. I'm just wondering how prevalent is it today and just anything else around the history of it or anything that you learned about potlatch through making film? So yeah, I mean, it was very interesting to me when

I read the book, Lewis Hyde talks a lot about the potlatch in the book, but more in a historical sense from 100 years ago. And I didn't really know, you know, when I started making the film, like how contemporary or current was this? So I reached out to a community. I found this cultural center and called them and said, are there any potlatches happening soon? And they said, of course, they're happening all the time. Like what kind of potlatch are you interested in?

So, I mean, I think there's been a kind of revival in the last couple of decades of something that had to was forced to go underground when it was outlawed and there was a whole kind of secret time when people continue to practice and try to pass down these traditions which are all kind of oral and direct right but continue to learn about these things. So it's something that it's a very strong thread of community and a whole different system of, you know, thinking about power and wealth distribution, which I think is still very alive through the whole Pacific Northwest from like Alaska down to Oregon and Washington. And yeah, I mean, they just, it was a, it was a whole system of wealth

distribution where people were kind of taken care of in a different way right so there's many elements to the the idea of wealth like there's a character in my film who says wealth is many many things not just money money is the cheapest it burns the quickest out of all of them so names rights dances you know there's all these different gifts that are being distributed. And so it's interesting. I mean, the film is also playing on this double idea of the gift, right? And the creative gift. And so, yeah, I mean, what is wealth is an interesting question. So another example that you mentioned is Burning Man. So I'm wondering, how is the gift economy alive in Burning Man, maybe both historically and still today?

So Burning Man, I mean, one of the central principles of Burning Man is this idea of gifting. And, you know, even though people pay for a ticket, so of course there is money exchanged at the beginning. So of course, there is money exchanged at the beginning. It's, you know, it's an example of kind of a temporary autonomous zone where people are relating to each other in a different way. And even though it's only for a week, it's, I think it can be very kind of transformative for people. So the idea is that there's nothing really for sale, and there's no commodification, there's no branding or selling of things. But I think one of the biggest things is that, you know, they say it's kind of a peer-to-peer culture, right? It's like it's created from the ground up. It's created by all these kind of makers who are laboring for so long in service of these gifts that they bring. These art cars or projects or food to share or musicians come and bring their gifts and yeah it was interesting when I made the film Larry Harvey who died recently but one of the founders of Burning Man when we went to film we had to get permission from them and he heard that we were making the film and he

offered us an interview and I don't have any talking heads or experts in the film we're just kind of following ordinary people so at first I was like well I don't really any talking heads or experts in the film. We're just kind of following ordinary people. So at first I was like, well, I don't really have any sit down interviews in my film. But my partner who was making the film with me was like, are you crazy? Just take the interview and like, let's meet him. So we did. And he told us that, you know, the kind of the genesis of the gift culture at Burning Man was at first he said it was this kind of like freak family picnic. And he's like, you wouldn't sell things at a family picnic, right? That would be weird. So at first we kind of decided to ban commerce. But then he says that he read Lewis Hyde's book and that, you know, this idea of actually actively gifting and encouraging this gift economy

was partly inspired by the book, which I didn't realize. But it's interesting because he says it was, you know, very hard at the beginning because there was this thing, you know, we're so kind of conditioned to be like, no, it's okay. You know, I don't want to take anything from you because I might owe you something. And he said to kind of like encourage this idea that, no, it's really just about the gift. Like, I just want to give you something. There's something very hard for people to kind of like wrap their minds around or be open to. But it's been kind of cultivating this culture over the years. And I don't know, it's interesting.

Like, would you say in the Bay Area or san francisco can you see evidence of that and yeah i would say that i i definitely have that affiliation with burning man and the gift economy and definitely like you show in the film people who go find something that they want to contribute that they're excited to contribute i think i also hear about self-reliance though like that that you have to bring everything, pack in, pack out. And so that's an interesting one. So there's almost like you're safe and you're contained, but then you gift when it's maybe like convenient or when it's fun. So I do wonder what a more mutually indebted gift economy of Burning Man could look like. I

guess the extremeness of the conditions might make that difficult if you don't come with enough water and you have to gift give. But I think what's coming up for me is my understanding of the gift economy from an alternative economic perspective is that there's the exchange economy and the gift economy. And the exchange economy is inherently self-oriented. It's when I give to you to get something back for me. There's something that I want. And then the gift economy is inherently other-oriented. You give for the sake of giving. You give for the other. And then there's the gift paradigm and the gift economy and the exchange paradigm and the exchange economy. And that you could even have the exchange paradigm within the gift economy. You could give, like I could donate to a hospital,

for example, to have my name on the wall. That would be a gift economy, but I would be doing it for exchange so that I get something out of it, prestige, fame, et cetera. And you could also work within the exchange economy, such as being a teacher or something, but do it with a gift paradigm. So do it for the love of doing it. So that's the kind of frame that I'm coming from. So that's why I'm trying to hear what you're saying about reciprocity and exchange and all of that. But I do think that the commonality is this mutual indebtedness that happens when we gift give. And almost like it's not an equal exchange. There's not, I would like oranges and you're selling oranges, so I give you a dollar and you give me

an orange and we're done. And it's that relationship is severed, that the gift economy makes us mutually indebted. And we might have an actual arms race of gift giving, where I give to you and then you give to me and you give to him and you give to her and we and we give to each other. So I imagine that in an ideal form, Burning Man would have a mutual gift circulation without that kind of exchange that could come with gift. Yeah. Any thoughts on that? Well, I think it's also interesting what you were saying about the charity or philanthropy aspect. Lewis Hyde talks about that in the book. And he says that, you know, traditional philanthropy or charity that's one sided doesn't really work as a gift economy because there has to be this circular quality of things coming back to people.

Right. So he says, for example, like Andrew Carnegiegie the steel baron you know donated all this money for the carnegie library so people could have libraries and books in their communities and isn't that wonderful but imagine his workers got paid more so there was enough for everybody to contribute to create their own libraries and you know there's a way that it has to be it can't be a one-sided unequal thing it has to be a way where things eventually kind of circulate and can come back so with the story in Rome for example that's something I really thought about where a lot of the artists who are contributing they're giving a gift but it's also you know what was interesting to me is what do they gain by spending

time in this place where these like Roma children are running around and interacting with them and they have a chance to spend time with people who are totally on the margins of the society there and you know it's such a kind of enriching experience by like being in the place spending time in it and creating these kind of bonds of relationship and community so it's important to not show it as this kind of like one-sided charitable thing. Yeah. So I'm really hearing like the key themes are that yes, gift giving can be other oriented, like you can do it for the other, like the artists probably in the Rome example, we're doing it for the refugees, the folks living there, but that it can't be a

one-sided, that there is also something that they're getting back, but it's not in exchange. It's that mutual gift giving that makes a gift economy an economy and not just a gift. And then I'm also hearing, again, that reframing of what is wealth, right? Because in the monetized exchange economy, something is given for money. But in this example that you just gave, there's mutual gift giving and receiving simultaneously, even if it's, you know, a feeling of belonging or connection or learning. Yeah, so that's what I'm kind of hearing is the main theme. So that'd be right. Totally. And there's also an important idea that the gift needs to keep moving, continue to circulate. So Lewis Hyde is drawing the parallel to, you know, how we can kind of be transformed by art, that we're moved by it, and there's something

of our own gifts that can be woken up by it. And then something comes out of us that's passed on to the next person. And that's part of how the gift moves. But he also, you know, uses like fairy tales and stories to talk about this idea of, you know, like there was a mother who had three daughters and she gave them a piece of bread. And the two older sisters came across these birds and they didn't want to share their bread because they didn't have enough. And then they ended up meeting danger on the road and they were killed. But the youngest daughter is the one who shared her little piece of bread and she gave her crumbs to the birds. And then later on, the birds come to her rescue. And, you know, there's so many stories like that, in kind of mythology and fairy tales. And the idea is that wealth wants to keep moving. And when we try to

hoard it, or keep it in one place, that's when it can kind of destroy us. Yeah, it reminds me of the concept of demurrage money, this idea of what if money had a expiration date? So if you had to keep circulating money, it's almost like hot potato, that we wouldn't want that river of money to stagnate in pools, you know, first of all, to be siphoned off from the common good, the common river, but into private pools, but then to be siphoned off into pools that then stagnate and sit. And that's kind of, yeah, connecting with wealth and hoarding and all of that. Yeah, I've just opened my film. It's been touring in theaters. And when we opened in LA, my special guest was John Densmore, the drummer from The Doors,

who famously kind of fought against the commodification of The Doors music after Jim Morrison died. They were going to use it for car commercials. And he fought against all the other members in the band saying that Jim would have been rolling over in his grave. And so he actually legally stopped them from doing that. And he wrote a book about it. But he was talking about this idea of currency, you know, coming from this idea of a current. And like water, like a river is supposed to keep flowing, right? So he was saying he actually tithes 10% of his income.

And he has for years. Just like systematically giving it away. And he said when Oliver Stone made the film about the doors, he's like, my hand was kind of shaking when I was writing those checks. He's like, the greed gene is in me too. But he's someone who I think really embodies both sides of that idea of the gift, kind of like channeling his inspiration and his talent and his music and then really keeping gifting all his different wealth away. What would an idealized gift economy look like or gift economies if they were more prevalent,

if we fed them more or they were more activated? So one of the things that comes up for me is that people would need to ask for what they need. But yeah, I'm just wondering, like when you imagine stronger gift economies in the world, what might that look like? Or what might, how might things change? Yeah, I mean, one thing that comes to mind is this practice of the gift circle.

You know about this? I think it's kind of originated around San Francisco, the Bay Area, but that idea that people get together and go around and say something that they could use help with and then you go around and people say what they might be able to offer or help each other with and it's an interesting like very simple practice but just of like having to do both of those things you know be able to express what you need from people and then just see what comes up for you in terms of what you could offer.

I think one of the things with the gift economy is like there's a kind of misconception that it only exists in these exotic places like Burning Man or indigenous cultures or fire away villages in Africa, you know. And I think a family is kind of like the first simplest version of a gift economy. And hospitality is a very simple example of it. And that's been, you know, kind of turned into a bigger scale thing with things like couch surfing, you know, but that's a very like simple thing that people have always done is like offer a bed to a friend or a passing stranger and just welcome someone into their house. I think, you know, we're at a point where so many acts of everyday life have been monetized. So even like childcare, for example, you know, the idea that people like bankrupt themselves paying people to take care of their kids while they have to work in communities

where neighborhoods and communities are stronger. Like people have always helped take care of each other's kids. So it's, you know, by strengthening those bonds of community, we're able to help each other with things that have been monetized. Right. So, I mean, there's all kinds of examples in like whatever community we live in. whatever community we live in, you know, it's, I think just about kind of reaching out to your neighbors with generosity and kind of, you know, having the courage to show up with our gifts. That reminds me, I was in Korea recently, and there was a woman wearing a beautiful handmade brooch, like pin. And I was like, Oh, that's really beautiful. And she took it off and gave it to me. And I've heard I've heard stories of that but that's never happened to me and it was it was it was quite disorienting because I

didn't know should I give something back or should I should I not accept this like you know but just yeah chose to just be open and accept it and wear it and it was it was really special did you have did you hesitate were you at first like no i can't take that i was so surprised yeah i was really surprised and just like that's just incredible but i think the lesson for me was around this like keep things moving and practicing non-attachment to things i've even heard about an invitation from the buddhist tradition of if you ever feel attached to something that to to give that away like give away your most prized possession yeah that's a hard one yeah because there's some there's some

clinging or attachment to that and you know all things will you know either be lost or you know change or you know we'll lose them when we pass away right so we don't actually really own anything so that idea of like keeping things moving yeah is really prevalent but yeah that that came up for me too lewis hyde gifted me with a special first edition of his book when i i just saw him in san francisco and it was something he had given to someone when the first edition came out and then he was staying with this friend like 35 years later and they were decluttering and they gave it back to him. So he signed it to me. And, but I was like, I'm traveling and it's, it's this beautiful hardcover thing. And I had it in my hand and I met someone at breakfast and I was telling him about it. And he was like, I love that.

It was the original title of the book was The Gift, Imagination, and the Erotic Life of Property. And he was like, that's such a poetic title. And I just looked at him and I was like, maybe I should give this to you. And I just gave it to him. And it was like, that's such a poetic title. And I just looked at him and I was like, maybe I should give this to you. And I just gave it to him. And it was like something that had been given to me in kind of a special way. But in that moment, it was just like, it's the right thing to do to pass it on. But I did have that pang. And there's that question of like, can you re-gift? You know, you get something that maybe is not really for you. And I think there's a little bit of a faux pas with that. But the flip side would be, you know, just to keep things moving. Like if something, if it really doesn't serve you or you don't need it, to just keep it moving.

You know, circulation, as you're saying. And I love that that subsection of the book title was about the erotic connection to property. Is that what you said? The erotic life of property, like the way kind of the bonds of Eros, not so much in like the romantic way, but just in the sense of, you know, connection between people, the connections that are created. Yeah, it's interesting about the things and Christmas. I mean, I think that between the ideas of the gift economy and the idea of like degrowth, there's a lot of connection. And I feel like I'm more and more into this idea

of like questioning growth and questioning buying more things. And I think, you know, just thinking more about the intangible quality of the gift and how we can change our conception of that. And then I think we have to mention that you, we're not just talking about physical property and things that you have mentioned a few times about the gifts that we bring, like the qualities or our talents and skills. And I think that also, yeah, is part of the gift economy.

And when we're able to gift give and when we're able to show up, it connects with the concept of right livelihood, you know, to be able to give that which makes us thrive or is connects with our calling and one way that i participate in the gift economy is um almost all of my workshops retreats and coaching sessions are done in the gift economy so they're given freely for the other and then the other person has the opportunity to gift give at whatever amount feels good for them yeah so in in buddhist terms that's donna the the poly word for generosity so yeah i think part of what i'm hearing is recognizing the gift economies and the gift

mechanisms that are already existing that are already out there. And practicing that trust, like you said, and willingness to show up and to gift give, and then also to receive. Exactly. So I'm just wondering if you have any other closing thoughts, like maybe around why is the idea of the gift economy important today, or just any last insights or reflections from your experience in so deep in this topic? I think as I've traveled with the film, I mean, it's funny when I started making this film, it took me five years to make the film. And, you know, there was this idea that like the gift, gift culture was kind of in the zeitgeist and, you know, people in the Silicon Valley talk about, you know, the roots of the internet as a

gift economy, the free software movement, hacker culture as a gift culture. And it was like, oh oh it's something that's kind of hot right now but then I was like oh it's taking me so long to make my film like maybe it's going to be passe by the time I finish it and you know then Trump got elected and you know this age of like the age of greed just seems to keep expanding you know and the kind of extractive approach to the earth. And I now that I'm putting out the film, I just feel like there's so much receptivity to these ideas. And I just I think there's a feeling that, you know, things are broken with the way the direction we're moving, and people are just looking for something else. And it's like, there must be different ways. And, you know, there are such basic human stories and practices of

connection and, you know, what makes us human. And I think the extremes of inequality are, you know, the gap between the rich and the poor is increasing. And the way we're going, it's like things are going to keep getting darker, right? And we have a choice to either kind of fight tooth and nail, fight for the resources we have and build walls and try to keep people out or find ways to be in solidarity with each other and create community and show up with all our gifts. And I think the importance and the value of art and creative work and all the different things we can offer that can't be counted or measured will be our most precious assets. Yeah, thank you for that. That reminds me of just the idea that the exchange paradigm or capitalism, if we could say that, is highly competitive and even co-ops that

which tries to address it. So that kind of that commodification that you're speaking of, the sharing economy, for example. And it almost relates to the fact that, like, I love how you said right now we're in a time of greed. And so it's even more important for this gift giving and gift economy to be realized. And it's almost like we all have the capacity for both greed and that self-orientation, as well as that other orientation and that gift giving. And so just to return, as you said, to the idea of gift giving as a radical act and just to reframe our sense of wealth and what is important and that gift economies are here. I love that you said it's not just places like, like I'm thinking about the Kula Ring, for example,

is a classic example of alternative economics as well as the potlatch. And those are things, yeah, in far off places. And true, I didn't as the potlatch and those are things yeah in far off places and true i didn't think the potlatch was still happening either i thought it was this concept from from long ago far far away but to know that there are ways that this is being practiced and thriving and to recognize that and to celebrate that in that so your film definitely does that yeah one more thing that comes up. There's a book called Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer, which I only came across after I had made the film, but it just blew my mind because she articulates in such a beautiful way, so many of these ideas,

and the connection to now. And she talks about this idea of how gratitude can be a radical practice. Because, you know, it's so much of it is about like the idea of sweet grass is something sacred that's used in ceremony and so it should never be bought or sold that it's kind of like it needs to be kept outside of that exchange paradigm but she says that you know when we practice gratitude for you know the places we live and the small things that we have it's it's radical because you know when your whole culture is based on not enough and always lacking something and needing something to be fulfilled, it's like to say that you're full and you're wealthy and you have enough

is one of the strongest things you can do. You've been listening to an Upstream with robin mckenna the director producer and writer of gift support for upstream comes from the gorilla foundation and from listeners like you we practice the gift economy by giving away all content freely to To practice give-giving yourself, please consider donating at upstreampodcast.org forward slash support. Our past interviews and documentaries are available on our website and on Spotify, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. We're also on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at Upstream Podcast. Upstream Theme Music was produced by Robert Raymond. And speaking of Robert, don't forget to check out his new project, The Response, a documentary podcast series that explores remarkable communities that arise in the aftermath of disasters. They just released a new

episode today on the rebuilding efforts in Paradise, the Northern California town that was burned down in 2017's campfire. Visit theresponsepodcast.org to check it out. Thank you. Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, Sinti, ¶¶ Oh