Upstream - How to Decolonize and Indigenize with Sikowis Nobiss

Episode Date: October 9, 2023

What is the connection between capitalism, colonialism, consumerism, and Christianity? How do these systems and ideologies uphold and support one another? How do we work to dismantle them and cultivate in their place a decolonized culture and politics that supports Indigenous sovereignty, human health and wellbeing, and flourishing ecosystems? These are some of the questions that we’ll explore today on this special Indigenous People’s Day conversation with Sikowis Nobiss. Sikowis is Plains Cree/Saulteaux of the George Gordon First Nation in Saskatchewan, Canada At 19 she began her life's work of uplifting Indigenous rights and voices when she got her first job at the New Brunswick Aboriginal Peoples Council in Fredericton, Canada, during the Burnt Church Rebellion. Between 2010 and 2015, Sikowis attempted to work with various Indigenous folks in Iowa City to build a climate and environment organization but was unsuccessful. However, her goal to found such an organization became a reality in 2016 when she joined the fight against the Dakota Access Pipeline. This led her to co-found Little Creek Camp in February 2017, which has since transformed into Great Plains Action Society, a fully Indigenous-led organization where Sikowis works at a grassroots level to dismantle corrupt colonial-capitalist systems and rebuild them with a decolonized worldview. Thank you to Soni López-Chávez (of Chichimeca heritage) for this episode’s cover art and to Black Belt Eagle Scout for the intermission music. Upstream theme music was composed by  Robert Raymond/Lanterns. Further Resources: Great Plains Action Society The Righteous Gemstones Upstream Podcast documentary: Our Struggles are Your Struggles: Stories of Indigenous Resistance and Regeneration This episode of Upstream was made possible with support from listeners like you. Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

Ah Ah Ah Ah Ah Ah Ah So as Indigenous people, culture changes everything.

Loss of language, loss of knowledge of how to carry out ceremony, even loss of cooking the things we ate, how we eat, how we get our food has been so detrimental on not just our society as a whole, right, but the individuals. on not just like our society as a whole, right? But the individuals. And I feel that's one reason why it's so hard for us to heal and come back from genocide is because we don't just get to connect back to the culture. Like we literally have to find that culture and rebuild it. So we have to rebuild what's been taken as well

at the same time as we're trying to heal ourselves. You're listening to Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. A podcast of documentaries and conversations that invites you to unlearn everything you thought you knew about economics. I'm Robert Raymond.

And I'm Della Duncan. What's the connection between capitalism, colonialism, consumerism, and Christianity? How do these systems and ideologies uphold and support one another? How do we work to dismantle them and cultivate in their place a decolonized culture and politics that supports indigenous sovereignty, human health and well-being, and flourishing ecosystems? These are just some of the questions that we'll explore today on this special Indigenous Peoples' Day conversation with Sikawis Nobis. Sikawis is Plains Cree Saulteaux of the George Gordon First Nation in Saskatchewan, Canada.

At 19, she began her life's work of uplifting Indigenous rights and voices when she got her first job at the New Brunswick Aboriginal Peoples' Council inicton, Canada during the Burnt Church Rebellion. Between 2010 and 2015, Sakao's attempted to work with various Indigenous folks in Iowa City to build a climate and environment organization, but wasn't successful. However, her goal to found such an organization became a reality in 2016 when she joined the fight against the Dakota Access Pipeline. This led her to co-found Little Creek Camp in February of 2017, which has since transformed into Great Plains Action Society, a fully indigenous-led organization where Sakawis works at a grassroots level to dismantle corrupt colonial capitalist systems and rebuild them

with a decolonized worldview. We're really excited to share this conversation with you, but before we do, really quickly, I just wanted to say a huge thank you to everyone who responded to our call for help after we lost our grant funding this year. It really means the world to us to know that you all have our backs and so many of you shared our call for help on social media. You reached out to us personally. You became monthly donors and we truly felt the love and we are so, so grateful to you all. Now that we're entirely listener funded, it's not hyperbole to say that we truly cannot do this without you. And if you haven't already, if you can, and if you haven't already, if you can, and if you're in a place where you can afford to do so,

and it's important for you to help keep Upstream sustainable, please consider going to upstreampodcast.org forward slash support to make a recurring monthly or one-time donation. Also, if you can, please go to Apple Podcasts and rate, subscribe, and leave us a review there. You can also go to Spotify to leave us a review there too. It really helps us get in front of more eyes and into more ears. We don't have a marketing budget or anything like that for Upstream,

so we really do rely on listeners like you to help grow our audience and spread the word. Thank you. And now here's Della in conversation with Sakawis Novus. So let's start with an introduction. How might you introduce yourself for the listeners? Hello, my name is Sakawis Nobis, and I'm Plains Crease Alto of the George Gordon First Nation, which is in Saskatchewan, Canada. And I grew up in Winnipeg, Manitoba, which isn't too far away from there, so I went back and forth as a kid. I moved to Iowa City about 17 or 18 years ago now. I came here for school, and I got my master's degree in religious studies with a focus on Native American religion and culture, and a graduate minor in Native American studies. I felt that after that, it was really important that we needed more

Indigenous representation in the state of Iowa because there really isn't. And so I founded Great Plains Action Society. Now I am the executive director of this organization. We're a small organization working across Iowa and eastern Nebraska and also doing some national work. And we've been around for, geez, I guess since 2016 now. Wonderful. Thank you. So when you think about what's going on for you and communities that you're involved in, and you think about what's happening in the world, what is it that's breaking your heart right now or concerning you? I think what breaks my heart the most is the loss of humanity. Or honestly, if we ever really had that for a lot of people in the first place, I get so sad to see the indifference and the continued

growth of wealth for the 1% and the suffering that it causes, you know, so many people in this world. the suffering that it causes, you know, so many people in this world. But yet, then I say to myself, well, wait, like, this is how it has been for a very long time. You know, things used to be even worse when you think about like the kind of torture and murder and misogyny and anti, you know, LGBTQ sentiment out there, anti disability sentiment out there. It's like, yes, things are getting better in a way, but it's like the type of degradation to humanity, the loss of humanity, like the way people are, it's almost like it's just changing. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, now we're just becoming like secluded narcissists, just living in these like little like colonial households apart from community really just communicating through digital means and I mean I even cry because I see the younger

generation and even like a loss of ability to communicate in person you It's like, I think that's what bothers me the most because when you're not connected to community, then you lose your ability to have empathy and compassion. And we are facing a massive extinction event right now. We're facing down the climate emergency and fascism and huge issues, possibly another world war. And here we are just with our heads in our phones and like nobody's connecting. And so that's a really big deal for the work that we do at Great Plains Action Society. It's about community building and bringing back our

culture as part of that to build community so we can live healthier lives and make real change. What are the ways that you have found that are helpful for reconnection and community building? I just mentioned culture. So as Indigenous people, culture is key to all of that. Culture changes everything. Loss of language, loss of knowledge of how to, you know, carry out ceremony, even loss of cooking, the things we ate, how we eat, how we get our food has been so detrimental on not just like our society as a whole, right, but the individuals. And I feel that's one reason why it's so hard for us to heal and come back from genocide is because we don't just get to connect back to the culture, like we literally have to find that culture and rebuild it. So we have to rebuild what's been taken as well at the same time as we're trying to heal ourselves. And this show is called Upstream because it's based on a parable of going upstream from the heartbreak or the challenges of our time to the root causes. So I'm wondering if you were to go upstream from the disconnection, the heads in the phone, the genocide, the need to rebuild culture, the

need to heal. What would you say are some of the root causes for that heartbreak? I have been saying this for years, and I always go back to the Christian dogma that God gave man dominion over the earth. And then there's also some other verses as well, you know, that basically just define what is at the heart of Christianity being like, obviously misogyny, one of them. And this idea that men have dominion over our earth who is our mother who is a living being which means dominion over all the resources all the living things and that mentality is what led to in my opinion colonial capitalism the doctrine of discovery manifest, all of that stuff, colonial expansion, imperialism, and then just also to this independence, this radical independence. Because if you are born into this

world, a sinner, and all you got to do is just prove that you're okay, so that you can get on to this next world, like then you're obviously not going to care too much about what happens in this one. Or you're only in it for yourself, right? And then you're worried about other people that you love and care about also getting to where it is you want to go. So then you end up with a lot of oppression, right? And that's how you end up with proselytization

and this idea that people need to be civilized so that they can then move on to you know whatever heaven or whatever it is that they imagine but like all of this was done like all of these thoughts and these philosophies and these like religious ideologies and mythologies you know were all created in a echo chamber right like it's not like people actually had like it's not like they were out in the world already knowing that all these other people existed right when this was all like brought together but then you know when they did start to move out into the world these colonizers right they literally used religion as their fundamental reason for being able to steal, to kill, to rape, to harm. And so in the end, what I absolutely blame is Christianity.

I just so appreciate that you're connecting and the way that you're connecting Christianity and capitalism. And I want to pick up on one of the seeds that you brought up. Christianity and capitalism. And I want to pick up on one of the seeds that you brought up. You brought up misogyny and kind of patriarchy and this idea of man's dominion over women, but also nature. So let's go a little bit more into that. Like, how does misogyny, in your view, manifest through Christianity? This idea that women are objects, right, that are objectified and were there basically to please men comes into this whole conversation because women are supposed to, you know, have children. Women aren't supposed to have control over their bodies, though, right? Like the people who decide whether a woman's going to have a child or not is like, you know, in the past it was her father, then it was her husband, right? going to have a child or not is like you know in the past it was her father then it was her husband right her father was to keep her from having the kids so she had the husband and then the husband

you know tells her how many kids to have and so like that mentality has like come over that christian mentality has come over you know into the u.s and it's burgeoned into this whole weird cult sect like like fundamentalist movement and it's it's it's like they have so much power because they're you know they have so much money and they're able to lobby our governments and they're able to make this decision for like the rest of the country who basically does not agree right and and like you know indigenous peoples like women were in control of their body right like women controlled what they did and did not do. And in fact, like, there is evidence that we did not have lots of children, right? Like, you know,

after colonization, yeah, like, we started to have a lot of children because that's what we were told to do. But before that, you know, women did not have, like, you know, 10 kids, right? Like, from what I've been told, they had one to three. And so I just think that's really important to note and to note that this hatred, this vitriol that's coming out of this right-wing sect, if you will, it's hatred of everything that they are not, right? So it's like basically disinterest

in people with disabilities. It's absolute pure hatred for LGBTQ communities. And essentially, it's perpetuating like colonial harm violence, you know, on trans people in a big way as well, not just trans people, but the whole LGBTQ community. And then again, like taking away our access to abortion, taking away our reproductive freedom, and not that indigenous peoples have had a lot of reproductive freedom, and we've, we've, we're still fighting for reproductive liberation. We've never had an abortion carried out on a reservation due to the Hyde Amendment, which came out like a couple years after Roe versus Wade. And then even up until that point, just around that time that Roe versus Wade

came out, we were having mass sterilization of women, indigenous women across the country. Nobody knows the exact numbers of how many women were sterilized against their will. But like in some cases, people have said that up to 50% of our women were sterilized. More used number is 25%. But let's just say like it was a really large number of our women were sterilized. A more used number is 25%. But let's just say like it was a really large number of our women that were sterilized against our will. Due to this idea of eugenics, there was actually a eugenics program that was going on here in this country, if you can believe it, sterilizing disabled folks and Native American folks. And to some extent, I think as well, the black population, it all ties back to Christianity.

To me, that's the absolute like upstream spot that we should be looking at if we're trying to understand this issue. So I talk a lot at reproductive liberation rallies, right? I talk, I write about it as well. I have an article out there in Bustle about this abortion um and i'm always saying like why can't people have like the real conversation why can't we talk about christianity i will go up there and talk about christianity and nobody else will nobody it's like crickets everybody's like the patriarchy the government you know blah blah blah and i'm like y'all, like, you know, this is like, this is a Christian attack on our bodies. It has been for since day one, the Christian faith is very controlling of women. And so people need to understand that. And it's very linked to the hatred to LGBTQ folks. And, you know, just all that. It's all one in the same, honestly. It comes from one

source. Absolutely. I know. I think that's such an important connection. And so let's bring, let's bring capitalism back in. Let's bring that thread back in and let's explore what you call the four C's. So what are the four C's? If you can introduce them for us and maybe share a little bit about how they connect. Yeah, it's Christian, colonial, capitalist, consumerism, right? I mean, they all are linked tremendously. I mean, I love the example of the megachurch. I love to use the example of a megachurch because there you go. That is like an absolutely great example of like those four C's

coming together. So there's actually a show on HBO right now that I am loving called The Mighty Gemstones, which is, I don't know if you would call it a black comedy, but it's definitely, it's a comedy drama and it's supposed to be a caricature of like what's real, right? It's a comedy drama and it's supposed to be a caricature of like what's real, right? It's supposed to be like almost satire or something, but it's not. Like I honestly believe that this is real. I believe that this is how a lot of these people function because they're the epitome of all four of those things, right? They are the epitome of that.

They are the ultimate example of how ridiculous Christian colonial capitalistic consumerism can get. Dear God, today is going to be big. The most watched daytime service of the year, over 6 million worldwide. If I were the king of the world, I would come home, Dr. Gemstone Your whole ministry is set up to serve the gemstones

You should be ashamed of yourself Well, I ain't Praise be to he I mean, I don't even feel like I really need to describe it I mean, people can just picture it, right? They can picture the ridiculous amount of money that goes into creating a space like this. The ridiculous amount of grifting and conning that goes on, right? In the name of religion, like in the name of Christianity.

So like it's really, really about capitalism, right? Because it's about money, money, money, money, money. It's about getting money into the hands of a wealthy few, right? Because it's about money, money, money, money, money. It's about getting money into the hands of a wealthy few, right? Again, and taking advantage of the masses. And like, you know, these churches are like full on little towns, you know, where people can just go and pick and choose and buy whatever it is they want, whatever kind of spiritual package they want to, you know, take part in or like, I don't know, go get themselves a Starbucks coffee or whatever, right? Like, I'm just like, I truly feel like that is the epitome of it. And it's surreal to me. How do these exist? Why do they exist? How did Christianity become so blatant in its exploitation of humanity and the earth that's the question i ask when i look at

megachurches like christianity is a corrupt religion and i'm sure people can say that there's something to salvage from it like in the actual text the original text and the historical incidences that happened right right? But then I have to say, all I have to say is like, that's great, but let's look at the history of Christianity itself and like what's happened with it, right? And like, let's be honest about like what's occurred in the name of Christianity. And then also remember that this is like over 2000 years old, right? That like all these sort of historical events happened. And like, maybe it's just time,

just like other religions and other faiths and spiritualities and whatever, you want to call it cults, whatever. It's time for it just to phase out. I don't think you can redeem it. Even these people that are, you know, into Jesus, right? And they're like, Jesus was a radical. Like, I'm like, yeah, but Jesus still like

is part of the whole ideology and i guess we're still going to hell if you don't listen to jesus yeah i was uh driving the other day and i saw a sign on the freeway that literally said jesus or hell and i was like wow what a what an example of christian supremacy but also the way that I felt in reading that, even as someone who's not Christian, I just felt so icky. Like what a threat to receive in such a public space. So I absolutely hear you. So let's bring capitalism into this.

So I want to know about what you think of the connection between Christianity and capitalism and particularly why you call capitalism Christian colonial capitalism. We all know that capitalism arose out of Christianity, right? Like through Protestantism, right? And then from there, you know, like we just become more and more individualistic. become more and more individualistic and while we already had we had serfdoms right so we already had a one percent economy going on right and you know these people wanted to perpetuate that obviously and with the rise of these new technologies these ships back in the day they could you know increase their realm and then that gave rise to like, even a larger trade economy, which turned into true capitalism, like that we know now, and globalism,

basically, and just basically, like, supplanted the 1% from like, you know, within Europe to the rest of the world. And it's based upon like, you know, Christian understandings of the world that like, again, like, we come into this world as an individual, we leave as an individual, world and it's based upon like you know christian understandings of the world that like again like we come into this world as an individual we leave as an individual we have to watch out for ourselves like only we can rid ourselves of sin we have to be good we have to act a certain way be a certain way and like honestly like it's almost like everybody's kind of out for themselves in christianity like you know you don't see a lot of like community going on it's kind of out for themselves in Christianity. Like, you know, you don't see a lot of like community going on. It's kind of like, it's almost like families are just out there like

fighting for themselves in the Bible. Don't you feel like? Like, let's watch out for my family. I mean, I do know there was like a whole group of people like, you know, the Jews that were together as a community. And that's a very inspiring story, honestly. And I do like that aspect of it. But still, like, I feel like when I think about like the first book, like I'm kind of like, it's just all these families just out to like, like, I'm thinking of Noah, right? And like the ark and like how him and his family survived. How come there wasn't a community that survived, right? Like, I don't know. No, I hear you. It's the kind of putting individual salvation as the ultimate goal.

Because that's what it is, right? I mean, like, essentially, when you think about it, like the Bible is telling the individual, like you need salvation. And I think that like, from an indigenous perspective, like, you know, salvation comes through community. You're listening to an upstream conversation with Sakao Snobis, founder and executive director of Great Plains Action Society. We'll be right back. I'm sorry. Open up the door, I see I know you're taken What is it to you? Habits just don't fade Open over crowded love

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Cynhyrchu'r ffwrdd o'r ffwrdd. We'll be right back. Thank you. guitar solo Thank you. That was Soft Stud by Black Belt Eagle Scout. Now back to our conversation with Sikawis Nobis. So what are the ways that you would invite a decolonized worldview? What does that mean to you to cultivate a decolonized worldview? Decolonized is to indigenize for me. You know, I don't even want to like try to define what decolonized means because it can just mean so many things. But I mean, I guess it does mean to forego colonial systems and practices and ideologies, right? So, I mean, that's essentially what it is. It's like, for the individual, it's like, what am I doing right now? What am I going to do today? What am I doing with my life? What am I doing with my job? What am I

doing? How am I bringing my kids up? Are you just like going with the colonial status quo? Are you trying to like actively make changes in your thought patterns? Like the ultimate change again is to not think that everything out there is for the taking, right? The ultimate change is to understand that like we're all in this together and that we need to treat this planet like it's our mother and we need to be gentle and tread lightly on the earth like Wilma Mankiller said be careful how you tread because in front of you are generations yet to come right and I know that's hard with almost eight billion people on the planet right but if we were living differently we could support eight billion people as well if we were being careful with how we do things it kind of honestly goes a lot along with like the

environmental and the climate movements like it kind of is very much that as well in my opinion and you know from a community perspective from societal perspective, I guess it just means like trying to get better representation in Congress and like local level politics, trying to get more representation for indigenous peoples, black folks, Latino, Latina folks, whoever, you know, like all of us that are oppressed, women, disabled folks, LGBTQ folks, like more representation, like in our society, in spaces where we're normally not supposed to be in or normally like haven't been, you know, like invited. So making those changes, right? I mean, that's what I consider decolonizing. It's actually not even a really difficult term to understand. It really isn't. And in the end, like I said, for me, it's about indigenizing, bringing back indigenous power and culture and traditions. efforts and practices of things like land acknowledgements, pay the rent, land back, nationhood for indigenous peoples, or even the taking down of statues and also changing the names of things. What's your view on those efforts and actions? I'm all for it. It's a lot of work,

I'll tell you, because I've been working on a land back effort for years now. I've talked to hundreds of people about the concept of land back or like rematriation. I'd rather use that term, which means to like repatriate, but to use the term rematriate, cause like it's empowering the feminine, right? And so it is very easy to raise money to stop a pipeline. It is very easy to raise money for me as an organizer, as an executive director of Great Plains Action Society, to try to end the missing and murdered Indigenous relatives crisis. And I wouldn't say very easy. I'm just saying like, it is easier, is what I'm saying. But like then to raise money to buy land, that's almost impossible.

And that's because land is ultimate power, right? There is nothing more valuable than land when you think about it, right? Because that's everything. Like I said, that's reality. Capitalism is an illusion. All the things you can buy, the things you can put on that land, like that's an illusion. But the land itself is real. And what you can get out of that land is real, because you can grow food on that land. You can build a home for yourself on that land. So that's why land is ultimate power. And that's why we can't get that back. That's why it's been so difficult for so many of us that are working on that that issue. But yeah, I absolutely, absolutely 100% agree in all those things. And I'm working

hard on all those things as well. So, you know, I know you studied Native American religion. And, you know, I'm wondering what would be your vision for alternatives to colonial Christian capitalism, and particularly Christianity, because I know that, you know, there's obviously for folks who can return to a more eco spiritual wisdom tradition, that's beautiful. I'm assuming you wouldn't want folks to culturally appropriate other traditions that are not their own. So what would be your alternatives or your invitations for folks as they let go of or phase out Christianity? I mean, I do think that some people are, like I said, there are some people that are doing some cool stuff like around Jesus, right? Like, like you can really trace back things. I mean, for instance, there's like earth mother figures,

like, like all over Europe. Right. So there, there were pagan religions that worshiped the mother. And then it was just completely wiped out by Christianity. Why can't people bring that back? I mean,

like, why can't they just, you know, celebrate that back? I mean, like, why can't they just, you know, celebrate that again? I mean, it's literally like in our, this particular like country's societal structures, like, you know, in Halloween, in Christmas, right? Like, I know that a lot of stuff has been lost, but know enough that they can they can pick it up but i don't i i don't want people to go into that new age crap though like they got it like they got to separate paganism from new ageism and like unfortunately that's being muddled a lot and that's got to go i'm not saying that we shouldn't be able to celebrate like you know together and that like you know people can't be a part of like you know different like ceremonies and like whatever powwows and

things like that what i'm saying is like also due to what colonization did a lot of us are very nervous about like you know tokenism romanticization whitewashing the commercialization of our of our very sacred religions and traditions. So like, you know, that's why people are the way they are right now. But yeah, so I just say, you know, bring all that stuff back, bring all that paganism back and, you know, do some cool stuff. And just for clarification, how would you differentiate New Ageism? Or like, what does that mean to you? New Ageism is like a melting pot of everything right

so like you go into these new age stores and they're selling like you know bits of everything in them and like it's like things are just for sale it's like religion and culture is just for sale and then it's it's really disrespectful to these like very deep and wonderful traditions and cultures, right? Like it's just picking and choosing just like you would at a mall, like whatever it is you want. Yeah, the fourth C of consumerism. Yes, absolutely. So we're releasing this conversation on Indigenous Peoples Day. I'm wondering what message would you want to share on Indigenous Peoples Day and what invitations for those listening? we have urban natives we have afro-indigenous folks we have white passing indigenous folks

in our communities we have you know latino latina folks that are now you know starting to identify as indigenous because you know indigeneity has been so faux pas like in south america for a long time right like and more people are starting to reconnect to that. And then we have indigenous peoples from other parts of the world that are living here in the US that we need to bring in and support because, you know, they're away from their territories. They're away from their lands. And, you know, they're a big deal too, because like the global indigenous population is something like 5%, but we're protecting 80% of the world's biodiversity. So like, is something like 5%, but we're protecting 80% of the world's biodiversity. So like, we're in this together, you know, and the colonial expansion project was, you know, like global, like, it's not just like us here in North America, that were affected by colonial powers,

like, people all over the world were genocided through this, you know, Christian colonial capitalist, consumerist project. So, you know, here we are. And then last question. So I know that you are a mother, I'm wondering, what is the better future or your vision for the future that you hope for your children? Like, again, just indigenize everything. That's kind of how I feel. I feel like that's how we're going to have to curb the climate crisis because I'm not trusting these technologies that are coming out like CCS and CO2 pipelines it's just more it's it's kind of like apocalyptic kind of thinking like I'm going to build some pipelines so that we can solve the problem of like the climate crisis and like let's just do more of the same to solve the problem

like we just can't do more of the same like capitalism is not going to solve our problem that's it capitalism is is is the reason we're here and again christian colonial capitalist consumerism is why we're here so like this just i don't know i just wish people could get that through their head like i really wish they could just get that through their head, that this is the problem. And we have to do the opposite. You've been listening to an Upstream Conversation with Sakawis Nobis, founder and executive director of Great Plains Action Society. Please check the show notes for links to any of the resources mentioned in this episode.

And if you enjoyed this conversation, we're excited to let you know that Sakao will be a featured guest in our next documentary, which will explore the connections between religion and capitalism. Stay tuned for that. Thank you to Sony Lopez Chavez for this episode's cover art and to Black Belt Eagle Scout for the intermission music. Upstream theme music was composed by me, Robbie. Upstream is a labor of love. We couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at upstreampodcast.org forward slash support. And because we're fiscally sponsored by the nonprofit Independent Arts and Media, all donations to Upstream in the

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