Upstream - How We Show Up with Mia Birdsong

Episode Date: October 24, 2023

As we continue to work towards outer transformation, building the structures and models that will shape the transition to a post-capitalist society, it’s also important to think about the inner transitions within ourselves — particularly, how we relate to one another personally and socially. How we show up together for a liberated future is the core theme of the book How We Show Up: Reclaiming Family, Friendship, and Community, written by our guest in this episode, Mia Birdsong. Mia is the Executive Director of the Next River Institute and the host of the More than Enough podcast miniseries. In How We Show Up, Mia shares how we have separated from one another despite our deep desire for belonging. She explores how we can instead turn towards one another, remembering our inherent interconnectedness, and how we can find connection and support in vulnerability and generosity.  In this conversation we explore how capitalism has undermined our ability to create and sustain healthy communities, what it really means to show up for someone, how to set boundaries and hold each other accountable without bosses or policing, what a healthy interconnected community feels like, and how to cultivate a sense of collective vitality that embodies the liberated future we want right now Further Resources: Mia Birdsong Next River Intstitute More Than Enough Freedom's Revival: A Field Guide This episode of Upstream was made possible with support from listeners like you. Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.    

Ah. Ah. We're facing multiple existential crises as people. We're past a point of preventing, you know, climate change is here. Millions of people are going to die and be displaced. Like, that's just something we need to kind of come to terms with. But how we respond to that and what we build on the other side of that, right, and what we build on the other side of that, right,

can either be what we have now, which is garbage, right? It's why we're here. Or it can be about reconnecting to what it means to be human. you're listening to up scream up scream up scream up scream a blood-curdling podcast of demonic documentaries and cryptic conversations that invites you to unlearn everything you thought you knew about economics. I'm Robert Gravemout. I'm Della Pumpkin. It might frighten you to think about the alienation and loneliness that pervades our society today. But fear not, it doesn't have to be this way. day. But fear not, it doesn't have to be this way. As we continue to work towards outer transformation,

building the structures and models that will shape the transition to a post-capitalist society, it's also important to think about the inner transitions within ourselves, and particularly how we relate to one another personally and socially. to one another personally and socially. How We Show Up Together for a Liberated Future is the core theme of the book, How We Show Up, Reclaiming Family, Friendship, and Community, written by our guest in this episode, Mia Bergson. Mia is the executive director of the Nexus River Institute and the host of the More Than Enough podcast series. In How We Show Up, Mia shares how we've separated from one another despite our deep desire for

belonging. She explores how we can instead turn towards one another, remembering our inherent interconnectedness, and how we can find connection and support in vulnerability and generosity. In this conversation, we explore how capitalism has undermined our ability to create and sustain healthy communities, what it really means to show up for someone, how to set boundaries and hold each other accountable without bosses or policing, what a healthy interconnected community feels like, and how to cultivate a sense of collective vitality that embodies the liberated future we want right now. And before we get started, Upstream is entirely listener-funded.

We couldn't do this without the support of our listeners and fans. If you haven't already, if you can, if you're in a place that you can afford to do so and it's important to you to keep Upstream sustainable, please consider going to upstreampodcast.org forward slash support to make a recurring monthly or

one-time donation. And also, if you can, please go to Apple Podcasts and rate, subscribe, and leave us a review there. You can also leave us a rating on Spotify now. It really helps us to get in front of more eyes and into more ears. We don't have a marketing budget or anything like that for Upstream, so we really do rely on listeners like you to help grow our audience and spread the word. really do rely on listeners like you to help grow our audience and spread the word. Thank you. And now here is Della Pumpkin in conversation with Mia Birdsong. Well, welcome, Mia. Let's start with an introduction. How might you introduce yourself for the listeners? Yeah, so my name is Mia Birdsong. I'm a futurist and a writer. I'm a social justice

advocate and activist and world builder. And today I am also thinking about how I'm someone who enthusiastically works toward my own and our collective transformation. And I hear that you started with Futurist and I noticed your shirt says something about the future. The future is fluid. Can you share a little bit more about why Futurist came first? That's just for today. It totally depends on what day you ask me to introduce myself. The lane that I've chosen for myself in the last several years is deeply about the world that we need to be building for our descendants. And that feels important, because that long arc is where I see the effort to create justice and joy and well being for people, like it's not going to happen in our lifetimes.

And if we don't have a future vision of that, and we're not clear about that possibility, I think that we seed our capacity and strategy and energy to the present. And for radical folks, for progressive folks, we've gotten very, very good at reacting, at fighting back, at defending. But if that's where we spend our energy, then that's the world we're building. And I am not interested in having my, you know, great, great, great, great grandchildren live in a world where they are spending most of their time and energy defending, fighting back, resisting and reacting. And I think we can do both, right? I'm not saying that that work is not essential, because it is about making sure we are still alive, right? It's about protecting us. But without an orientation toward the long arc and toward the generational work that we are in, you know, we cede our imagination for what's possible. And we stay in a kind of small,

reactive place of what feels pragmatic, what feels logical, and it's so limited. So thinking about the future, and the shirt in particular is about, you know, is about gender. And I think is a, is an invitation to what was a moment where people were saying that the future is female, which feels reactive to me, right? To be like, is that is that actually what we want? Do we want a future that is female? And what I feel like I got invited into as you know, a cis woman by my gender non conforming

and gender fluid comrades and siblings was to imagine something beyond that. And I think the fluidity in the same way that you know, queerness is not just about sexuality, I feel like the fluidity is not just about gender, right? It is about, it's the invitation into being expansive, the invitation into trying to think about, dream about, and exist beyond binaries. Thank you. And I'm, I'm reminded of the indigenous wisdom invitation of seven generation thinking, right? Thinking of how our actions and our living will impact the seventh generation from now. I'm also thinking of it. I think it's Roman Kazarnik's book, How to Be a Good Ancestor. you know, great invitation. How can we be good

ancestors? And then, yeah, this other idea that we can't simply, you know, replace, you know, women's faces for men's faces on top of a system of unchanged social and economic power, right? And so that, you know, instead of reactionary, really visionary thinking. Beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. And let's, let's explore the book that brought us to this conversation. So how we show up reclaiming family, friendship and community. So what, what inspired you to write that book? And why? Why now? So, like most of us who grew up in the US, the socialization that I experienced pointed me toward this kind of trajectory of seeking, and I'm putting this in quotes, right, middle class success and happiness. And for anyone,

right, like, as we receive, you know, our political education or have kind of awakening, right, emerging from that socialization is a journey. And also, like the socialization doesn't stop, it continues. So there is an effort and intention that we put toward not just the kind of like intellectual understanding of it, but also the internal excavation that has to happen. And I was at a point in my journey where my political education had given me a very, you know, strong point of view, and understanding of the world and what change I wanted to see. But it didn't really say a lot about how my life could actually function differently. And in particular, I had questions about what family and relationship and connection could look like, right?

Like how I wanted to raise my children, what I wanted from my marriage, what I wanted my relationships and community to be like. wanted from my marriage, what I wanted my relationships and community to be like. So the book was really came out of a place where I was experiencing some tension of having, you know, achieved, and again, I'm putting all this in quotes, this kind of middle class, you know, I own my home, I have a retirement account, I am married to a man, we have two children, we have a chain link fence, not a picket one, you know, got dogs, like these things, right, existed. And I recognized one that obviously, my having those things doesn't mean anybody else does. And there are aspects of it that felt out of alignment with my political beliefs, and also just like my, again, like the way that that kind of functioned. And neither my husband

or I grew up in that context. I was raised by a single mother, and had, you know, kind of a community of aunties and, and I'm an only child, right. And like, during my childhood into my young adulthood, my friendships were deeply important to me and very familial. And my husband is kind of on another, and he's one of seven. He grew up in a community, you know, that I think would resemble what many people would kind of think of as like a hippie commune, right? So there were just like, many, many families, and he has lots of folks who he considers family who he's not biologically or legally related to. So both of us kind of came out of that context and into a context where the thing that our society says we're supposed to do felt unsatisfying. So I had

a lot of questions about what else we could be doing. And I feel like whenever I have questions about how to live a life, I turn to the people and communities who our current systems don't work in service of, because those folks are having to create something else. So it was really, it was really a journey for me, I was going in with a lot of questions, and I wanted to find answers for myself. And it seemed that because we collectively experienced the socialization, I was sure that what I was going to find would be useful to other people. And I wanted to make sure that the stories that were being shared with me had a broader audience that one could affirm the lived experience and stories of people who survive on the margins. So lots of Black queer women, sex workers, unhoused people, trans folks. And then also, I wanted it to be an offering to folks who are like, yeah, this thing, this thing that America tells us to do is not working for me. What else can I do? And I wanted

to provide a bunch of models. It was very specifically not a how-to book. Because one, I was not trying to present myself as an expert who had figured something out and was going to bestow, you know, answers to anybody else. And I think that, you know, community is a very personal thing. And I wanted to share enough stories so that it might just be that people would read them and be like, oh, there's something besides what I have. And here are a bunch of examples of what's possible. I need to figure out what's possible for me, like taking these as inspiration, but not taking them as like

blueprints or instructions. So that's the story. Yeah, and I definitely felt how it was guided by an inquiry. And I love the stories throughout and the learning. And I personally found it helpful. So I'm sure others have as well. And just uplifting two quotes related to what you just shared. You shared an Audre Lorde quote, without community, there is no liberation. And you also shared a quote by someone named Daniel Aldrich, a political science professor, saying, resilience isn't personal grit. It's the capacity of a neighborhood or community

to respond, mitigate and adapt to crisis. So just for me, those landed as to the why, why to explore community, why to be in community, why to work on how we show up in community. Anything you might add to those quotes or feelings? I mean, I think yes, like, I think that what I wasn't thinking about kind of in the beginning, but what became more clear to me at the end, and then also of the writing, and then also, as the book came out in the world, you know, it came out in the, like, June of 2020. So the beginning parts of the COVID pandemic. And, you know, the other thing that what you just said kind of like elevates is that we're facing multiple existential crises as people, right?

And, like, we're past a point of preventing, you know, climate change is here, millions of people are going to die and be displaced. Like, that's just, that's just something we need to kind of come to terms with. But how we respond to that, and what we build on the other side of that, right, can either be what we have now, which is garbage, right? It's why we're here. Or it can be about like reconnecting to what it means to be human, what it means to be interdependent, because that's how we survive. Daniel Aldrich's work is about how communities survive disaster. So, you know, whether it's weather disasters, or, you know, nuclear disasters, or, but just like massive, massive disasters. And part of what he found in his research is that the communities where there

is the most kind of social connection are the ones that do well, it's not the wealthy communities. is the most kind of social connection are the ones that do well. It's not the wealthy communities. It is not the ones that first responders get to, you know, first, it is like the people who know and care about each other. And that to me feels like a critical piece of wisdom about how we're going to move from where we are through the uncertainty of the next several generations to something else. And that there's an opportunity there, right, to build something on the other side that is the future we actually want, which goes back to, I think, what I was talking about in the beginning, which is that we actually need to spend time envisioning that we need to tell the story of that future, so that we can be practicing it now. So we can be, you know, sitting in this place

where we have one foot in the realities of the world we live in, and we have another in the future that we want. And being able to kind of straddle the tension between those two places is where that future emerges from. And then the other piece, so I feel like that kind of speaks to what Daniel Aldrich has to say about resilience. I also just think it's so important for us as people who live in a society that is constantly affirming the idea that we should do things ourselves, right? That like, it's a show of not just like strength, but also like, like morality, to do things yourself. To understand that like, resilience is not this individual attribute. It is about social fabric, it is about being connected enough to other people so that

like, when you need to rest, or you need to grieve, or you need to care for yourself, that like, others will pick up whatever needs to happen, that we are in relationship with each other that way. The Audre Lorde quote is one I've had in my email signature for many, many years now. And I feel like I come to understand it in new ways. And on its face, like, of course, we have to be in community to get to liberation because it's not work that an individual is going to do, right? Like, no one person gonna liberate anybody. It is collective effort. And I feel like, you know, many, many decades of history

of looking at social justice movement, at looking at revolution, makes clear that the way that people achieve any kind of liberation is collectively. But the other thing that came out of the research that I was doing in this book is, is this deeper understanding of what freedom is. And not just what it is like as an idea, but like, like a kind of almost natural or biological truth to it. When I was doing research for the book, I came across these freedom facts that deeply resonated with me and that I could not stop thinking about. One is that the word freedom and in English and the word friendship have the same etymological root in a Sanskrit word that means beloved. And I remember reading that and having this like, like, I didn't quite know what it meant, right? I was like, there was some confusion and curiosity there. But also there was this like,

and curiosity there. But also there was this like deep, yes, in my heart and my spirit when I read that. So that was one piece. And then the other was that pre 1500s, probably in many places, but this is speaking to a kind of Western context that's super different from the one we have now, but was still a Western context. Someone who was enslaved was understood as being unfree, not just because they were in bondage, but because they had been separated from their people. And that to be free required the condition of being in connected community. And that made a ton of sense to me, partly because ofiel aldrich's work but also because i was reading about kind of the biology of humans as animals and we are we are fundamentally social animals right you know we're not turtles right we're like our mom lays a bunch of eggs on the

beach and is like you know peace out watch out for the seagulls, right? And you get hatched and you just like, skibble off into the ocean and hope you don't die. We raise our young, we care, you know, in the best of conditions, we care for our elders, through the arc of our lives. If we are able bodied people, right, there are times where we are caring for others, there are times where we experience care. If we're not able bodied, right, either because we have disabilities throughout our lifetimes, or we get them or we grow older and become disabled, right? There are folks who are able to care for us through all of that. So the idea that that freedom is something that we have in that context made so much sense to me because no one is accessing our material needs, the things they need to survive on their own. We need each

other for that. And that just deeply resonated with me when I thought about freedom as a collective project, freedom as something that requires the conditions that are available only in community. Yeah, thank you. And yeah, one quote that touched me from your book, you saying something similar, freedom is the idea that together we can ensure that we all have the things we need, love, food, shelter, safety. The way I've come to understand it, freedom is both an individual and collective endeavor, a multi-layered process, not a static state of being. Being free is in part achieved

through being connected. So I, yeah, this is not about individual salvation or the rugged individual. This is about collective liberation. Yeah. And you know, I've since, I've spent the last more than a year now actually working on a project called Freedom Survival that is specifically about reviving, right, this understanding of freedom as a collective process. And one of the questions that I was sitting with was about what I feel like I learned was a tension between the good of the collective and individual sovereignty and agency. And I feel like those things in our culture are presented as being in conflict or intention with each other. And one of the questions I had was, is that bullshit?

And I think what we found is that the well-being of the collective, right, when the collective is experiencing freedom, it facilitates our individual agency and autonomy. And part of it is about understanding that that individual agency is supported by the collective's liberation. And that if an individual has agency, right, without that being true, it usually is costing the collective something. So what I'm talking about is that everyone actually has access to their own sense of agency, as opposed to people who are extracting from others. commoning you know universal access to to commons and i also do love in the book how you bring up boundaries and kind of just really loving ways to hold boundaries and one story that really resonated you you really you express that you really wanted to have folks over you wanted to have kind of a home that you know people could come and go and yet like maybe that happening all the time didn't feel good so you set days when people could come over and you had some some ground rules like, you

know, leave the kitchen better than you found it and everyone can be casual. And it was just really sweet to hear that you were able to find a rhythm to have community and then also have some maybe alone time or time with your children or family if needed. But I really love that. And then you also talked about, you know, hearing no's from friends and giving no's and working with that not being like a disappointment or a rejection, but something for you to work with and something that you could lovingly hear. I don't know. Do you want to say more about no's and boundaries and how that relates to community? I mean, no's, I feel like, you know, we, I feel like many of us automatically

hear a no and feel like it's a rejection of us. And the thing I wanted to get to was being able to hear a no as information about the person who's saying no. It's not, it has nothing to do with me. It's not, it's not a reflection of me, it is about them. And knowing, I think, in particular, often how hard it is to say no, I also wanted to receive it. And actually, like one of the things I try to do with my friends, if I ask for something, and they say no, is to thank them, to thank them for taking care of themselves. Right? Like whether it is that it's something they're not interested in, or something that they don't have capacity for, whatever it is, it is about them protecting their own boundary. And I want my loved ones,

right, to be taking care of themselves, like that matters to me. So I think there's that piece. And then I think the other piece is that, like, the way that I that I'm able to get to that place is to have a kind of faith that there's not scarcity. So if I'm if whatever the thing is that I can't have from them, right, it is to trust that it is not for me. And that the universe is operating in a way that is going to ultimately take care of me and that my community is operating in a way that is ultimately going to take care of me. So if this is a thing that I want from somebody, and they cannot provide it, then either I'll get it some other way, or I will do without it. And that'll be okay. Right. So that to me feels it has felt just deeply important because it's not that I don't feel

disappointed when people say no, right? It's not like pretending that like, it's all great. But it is about recognizing that that disappointment is mine, and something for me to unpack and learn from, right? And like grow from. And that what I want to offer, you know, the person who has said no to me is gratitude. I think it makes it easier for people to say no when it's received with gratitude. And I genuinely mean it because it is in my experience, like, you know, when people say no to me, it is people setting a boundary for themselves. And I feel like that's something I want for people in the world. Yeah. And I'm reminded of the practice from nonviolent communication of, you know, offering requests, not demands. And it's such a subtle shift, but it's a, it's a really important practice to like feel into this is a a request that I feel like either might be a lot of effort, or I'm making it of someone who I know has limited capacity, I often make clear that

their no is welcome. So then they actually can like, freely give it if that's what they want to do. And then relatedly to being able to make requests and hear the no, even welcome the no, is to have multiple relationships that we can make these requests of. And so one thing that really stood out to me, I wasn't familiar with the term relationship anarchy. So I learned a lot about that. But just this idea that, you know, in ecology, diversity builds resilience, right? So it's the same in our interpersonal lives. So yeah, tell us about relationship anarchy and how we can have multiple connections and relationships that really provide us with an abundance of love and ability to meet our needs and also gift give. Yeah, so relationship anarchy is an idea that really came out of communities of aromantic and asexual folks. So first, I need to

give them a shout out because that's where I learned it from. And there's not, you know, they're like multiple definitions of it. The pieces that feel just like, super resonant for me are about not just accepting the relationship paradigms that we've inherited from our culture as the only ones that exist, right? I feel like there is, in particular, this primacy that is put on romantic relationships. And it's deeply heteronormative. It is about monogamy, even if you're a gay or lesbian person, it is heteronormative. It creates this hierarchy where like, you know, there's a pyramid and a romantic sexual relationship is the like goal. It sits at the top. I mean, so many of our structures and our cultural norms and our

cultural affirmations are about that kind of relationship. And it is meant to be like the most important one that you have in your life, and you get everything you need from it, which is absurd, first of all, like, if that's what you're expecting out of a romantic relationship, everybody's gonna be disappointed. So it's this idea that like, you know, we inherit this, this kind of paradigm from our culture, and then like, you know, and then friendships are secondary. And I feel like relationship anarchy says that, first of all, those aren't like the only kinds of relationships. And we, each relationship can actually have its own culture. And you can decide how much energy

and importance you put in your relationships based on your own needs and the needs of the people you're in relationship with. We actually can throw out all of the assumptions that go into both like the place that relation these relationships hold in our lives, but also our expectations of what we get from those relationships, and build something for ourselves. And I feel like that is such a beautiful, like that is such a beautiful, expansive way to think about connection with people. It is about like figuring out what your relationship ecosystem is. It requires, you know, a bunch of communication and conversation and listening. But the space that it opens up for having deeper relationships and having relationships that feel satisfied and actually having a life where more of your needs are met, I think is deeply profound. You're listening to an Upstream Conversation with Mia Birdsong,

author of How We Show Up. We'll be right back. ¶¶ Touch me, what would that mean? To a super-discard There's something with that demon, I think Telepathic, I'm bad Telepathic, I'm bad Send a message, be via telepathic Send it now, don't make it tragic If I can't get through

What are we gonna do? Will you tell me something without saying a word? Touch me once without being too specific Give me something without giving a thing Telepathic, a fear Telepathic, a fear Telepathic Love by Wipers. Now, back to our conversation with Mia Birdsong. to our conversation with Mia Birdsong.

I'm hearing an invitation to unlearn the primacy or even the ideal of the nuclear family, this blood relation that you mentioned earlier, and then also now this unlearning of the single romantic relationship meeting all of your needs. And one story that you offer is somebody who marries their community. I love that idea. And I have seen folks say, you know, hey, why is it that I have this beautiful ritual and celebration with this one person in my life when I have all these maybe friends, even friends from like childhood or other relationships, comrades, like people you work with or you, you know um you're activists with that are deeply important relationships in our lives as well so i thought that was a really beautiful like way to kind of

explore the rituals and also the like dominance of the the solitary relationship yeah i have a very close friendship we consider each other family and like we celebrate our anniversary like when we met it's in my calendar we often have dinner together or send each you know we text each other that feels super important right to like to honor the kind of beginning of that relationship that's very sweet and yeah now i'm thinking also about breakups although i don't wish your friend but you know but this idea of like yeah a friend breakup can be very very devastating devastating debt or being dumped by a friend like and because we don't have I mean people experience them and I actually feel like in the last you know five or

ten years there have been more public conversations about them but I'm like yes that's a thing that you can do with people. And I also think it's an important thing to do instead of like, letting a relationship just like, you know, you just like ghost people, or you stop communicating or whatever that you actually either, you know, sometimes you explicitly need to end the relationship. But other times, it's actually that the relationship is transforming, right? It's becoming something else. And I'm not saying like, it sounds exhausting to constantly have to like, mark the transformation of every relationship in your life. Because I know for me, like they're often very fluid, or they go through, like seasons where we're not as close. And then like, it kind

of comes together at some other point. But I think that at least recognizing and witnessing what's happening, I think in a relationship can be really important and allows for clarity, right, for the people who are in the relationship, because it's the worst, I think, when you think everything is the same, and this person doesn't feel as close to you or has moved on in some way, and there's not communication there. Whereas, yeah, in a romantic relationship, like, you know, if your boyfriend stops calling you, you're gonna be like, what the fuck? Like, that's not okay. Yeah, so I think we need to honor our non-romantic and non-sexual relationships in ways that are recognition, right? They're recognition of their importance and of the ways in which they change and shift over time. importance and of their the ways in which they change and shift over time. Yeah, and part of this recognition and being able to make requests, this part of this is unlearning capitalism, capitalism's kind of creating everything in the exchange economy, this idea that, you know, we must pay for childcare, we must always take our own individual transportation or buy all of one of everything in every home.

That's kind of like pushed as an ideal and it can be so difficult and inaccessible and very challenging when we also can't meet our needs in those ways. And so part of the like unlearning is also, you know, how can we rest into the gift economy, the gift paradigm, so that these relationships can also be one of mutual support of one another, like child rearing, caretaking, meals, like there's just so many ways that we can turn towards one another and offer support and request support for one another that can also help us unhook from the rat race of capitalism. Absolutely. So I don't know if there's more you want to share about that. I mean, I think that part of it is really about us beginning to notice, right, the impact that capitalism has on our ability to create and tend to relationship and community. Our work is often the sun around which the universe of our lives revolves in terms of our time and energy. And some of us have some control over

that. But my sense is that most of us don't, right? Because like, we need our jobs in order to live. And that means like, you know, the time we have that is not about preparing for getting to being at leaving from and like recovering from labor, right, like our paid labor is pretty small, we do not have a lot of time and energy for the other things in our lives. And, and then the other thing, of course, that capitalism does is it is distorted and corrupted our relationship with the environment and the rest of the natural world. And then we're also experiencing this kind of relentless exhaustion and grief and anxiety from the ways in which it is extracting from us and the rest of the planet. So I feel like we have to understand

that like, those are the conditions that we're in. And while relationship and connection is fundamentally who we are, it's kind of like we are a beautiful, lush rainforest plant with the potential for like life and growth inside of us. But we are planted in a desert. I mean, like stark desert, not like I know the deserts are not places of no life. But like, there's not that it's not the environment we're made for, right? We are, we are lush rainforest plants, and we're planted in the desert. So like, even though the potential, right, and the impetus for connection and relationship is there, we are not in the ecosystem that actually supports that. And I'm saying that not because I'm like, well, screw it, don't try to build relationships or community. But I think it is so important for us to understand

why it is so hard. And that just because something is fundamental to who we are as people doesn't mean that it is going to be easy. There's a lot of intention that needs to go into it. It is a constant, it requires energy and tending. And I feel like we also need to give ourselves a tremendous amount of grace when we can't keep it up, when we feel like we're failing at it, when it's just like not working for us. And there is this balance, and this kind of like alchemy that can happen in a community if we are able to provide some of what we need to each other, because then we're not having to, you know, work as hard to get it for our individual selves, we're able to do this thing for each other.

And it creates some of the spaciousness that we need for the tending of those relationships, for the caring of ourselves, right? So like that I have seen, I have been a part of that. And it's beautiful when it happens. And it is hard to maintain because there are these outside forces that end up, you know, it's like one person from the community has to move, because their job transfers them. And the whole thing kind of like, you know, the ecosystem gets screwed up. It's like, all of a sudden, there's not enough rain. And things begin to dry up. And that can, you know, so maintaining it is just really hard. And I want us to just give ourselves a lot of grace when we're not when we're not able to sustain it. But also to just like keep trying because when it works, it is just like, gorgeous. I don't know about other folks, but the

place where it feels the easiest in some way is actually in my neighborhood. I know most of my neighbors, we have each other's phone numbers, and we are constantly engaged in a gift economy, right? Like, I can pretty much feel like safe, beginning to cook something without all of the ingredients that I need, if I don't have time to like go buy, you know, lemons or onions, because I know that somebody on my block is going to have that. So there is often this like, like weekly stream of like text messages, and then we send the children out to get whatever it is. And there's like kids, you know, running up and down the block to go get lemons or soy sauce from somebody's porch. And that feels like, I want to make something. I don't have to take a trip. I don't have to get in

my car and drive to the grocery store just to get a cup of white wine for whatever it is I'm making. I can ask a neighbor for it. That that feels like a, an easy point of entry into that. And the way that it sustains us, not just because we're getting these ingredients we need for cooking, but because we're in relationship with each other, right? So it's not just that we, you know, we take care of each other's pets and plants. You know, when my children were, were younger, and we were getting to leave them at home by themselves, we would totally text all the neighbors and be like, we're leaving, we're going out for a date, the kids are at home by themselves, like, keep an eye out, they have your numbers, right? Like, like that kind of thing, where it's

also building our sense of safety and security. And, you know, I'm clear. I mean, I have an example in the book of the way in which that exchange of pet care and dinner ingredients becomes life saving. A few years ago, one of my neighbor's house is caught on fire. Her nephew, who is developmentally disabled, was the only person at home. is developmentally disabled was the only person at home. And if he didn't know who I was, like, I'm sure his instructions are to like not answer the door or not let anybody in. But he knows me as someone who talks to him who talks to his aunt, who we seen in the neighborhood. So when another neighbor saw that their house was on fire, and we were like, Oh my god, is he home? And I went knocked on the door. He opened it for me. And he opened it. And then he walked back into the burning house. And I went in

and like let him out. And then other neighbors came and took him into their house. And then I called my neighbor who's who his aunt, because she was away, right? She was, I don't know, doing whatever. And I called her and let her know her house was on fire and their nephew was okay. Like, and all this happened, all this, you know, him getting out of the house all happened before the fire department got there. So like, we build the connection and the fabric, ideally, right? In these like, like smaller exchanges that we have in our lives, right? We're building, it's like we're, we're weaving the thread one, one strand at a time, by being

in relationship by asking for, you know, things that are not a big deal for folks. And then, when shit goes down, right, we have people to lean on. And I feel like neighbors are so important for that, because they're in proximity to you, right? Like they're the people who are actually around you, like my closest friends will absolutely show up for me if something happens. But I'm like, if it's happening, like it's an emergency that's happening in the moment in my home, like it's going to take them a minute to get there. But my neighbors are literally next door. So that kind of relationship feels really important to me.

I also feel like, like as an abolitionist, it is also a place where we put our theory into practice. Because we as a culture have, you know, kind of outsourced our conflict, right? And we don't have, you know, navigating conflict as a practice, it's a thing you need experience for, but we call the cops for everything. You know, somebody played their music too loud. We call the same people who we call if, you know, somebody's broken into your neighbor's house and is holding them hostage. police is by not calling them. So if we can build our capacity for addressing and dealing with conflict, and not outsourcing that to people who have no business, I mean, having jobs at all, but certainly being in our communities, we do the work of abolition. So, you know, like, you do not want your first conversation with a neighbor to be, can you turn your music down? Right? You want it to be an introduction, you want it to be

like, you know, an exchange of names and information and, you know, small talk. So I really encourage folks who believe in abolition to know their neighbors. When we have people move into the neighborhood, I do the same thing for everybody. We have an amazing bakery near us, I buy cupcakes, I don't know if people eat, you know, I'm like, they're full of gluten and butter and eggs. But like, just don't worry about it. It's about the gesture. I buy delicious cupcakes. I write a note, I welcome them to the neighborhood. It includes my name and the names of everybody in my household. And it includes my phone number and my husband's phone number. I leave it for them on their doorstep. You don't

even have to talk to them. You can put on the doorstep and ring the bell and run away. Inevitably, like, you know, within a few hours, I get a text of thanks. Right. And I've begun to build the thing with them. And then I see them, you know, at some point, we see each other, like outside, and I introduced myself in person. And like, that's how we do this. And that means when my next door neighbor is having a party, and it is going too late. And, having a party, and it is going too late. And you know, I'm trying to get my kids to sleep, I can I know their names, I can call them, I can go over there. They know who I am, they receive cupcakes for me, right? Like they know a little bit that we're familiar with each other. So then I make the request for them to change a behavior. It is not the first conversation

I've ever had with them. And I feel like that is so important. And it's doesn't require a lot of effort. Yeah, I mean, what I'm hearing is I love alternative metrics, alternative metrics to success or progress or development, you know, instead of profit, or how much money you have, or how nice your car is, or GDP. And so, you know, a couple of metrics that I'm hearing is, you know, could you start cooking and know that if you don't have an ingredient, you could you could text a neighbor? I love that. I love that as a metric. That's beautiful. And I love the metric of, you know, if you like how many of your neighbors do you know the names of? How many do you know their their situations right to support or request support, their phone numbers. And then

also in the book, you had like somebody who was particularly good in maybe like heightened situations that you could call on instead of the police. Like there was someone who maybe could feel safer intervening or going into a difficult conversation. I really appreciated that role. So maybe it's like, do you know someone that's another metric? Is there someone in the community who'd be able to do that? Absolutely. Like, this is the like, we often think that like, if there is a situation that we think is going to involve conflict, we have to do it ourselves. And I'm always like, bring a couple neighbors with you.

Like, whatever it is that like, however you need to engage in something like we often go to the lone wolf, right? And I'm like, no, no, no, wolves are part of a pack. Like, let's be clear. Like be part of right, the community so that you can. Yeah, so you can get it can engage at one of the things I get asked about the neighbor piece and like getting to know your neighbors is often from, you know, from folks who are introverts, they're like, I do not, I'm not going to go introduce myself to my neighbors. And I'm like, do you know one person in your neighborhood who is not the introvert? Right? Can you like team up with them to make an effort like an like an actual like

kind of like official effort to connect with everybody on your block? Like write an introductory letter, right? That's from the two of you. And it's just like, hey, like we lived near each other, we would like to know who our neighbors are, if you would to like, you know, put your info in this Google Doc, or you know, here's our numbers, whatever it is, like, there's so many ways that we actually can, one make start to build those relationships and like, let it be awkward. It doesn't need to not be awkward, like just go with it and have it be awkward. It's gonna be awkward for everybody. And that's okay. But we also don't have to do it ourselves. We can do it with a partner. Absolutely. And so accountability, accountability is a really important feature of communities. And it's actually something,

as I've looked into and studied solidarity economics, cooperative economics, it's one of those things that in capitalism, there's a very clear delineation of like the boss and the workers and like at least one, one area of accountability. Without a union, there's lack of accountability the other way. But at least accountability is kind of clear. Whereas in cooperative structures and solidarity economies, there needs to be stronger self and peer accountability. And that's often a skill that that is either underdeveloped, or we're just not really taught. And so, you know, this idea of calling people in versus calling them out, this idea of holding each other accountable,

what what offerings, invitations, insights would you have in that realm? I think that one of the ways that I've come to understand what it means for other people to support my accountability is that what the it's, you know, because I think a lot of us have this association with accountability being like punishment for fucking up, right? It's like when you're going to be told that you're doing it wrong. So I've tried to understand it as that my loved ones, right, or my comrades or my colleagues, right, are holding am behaving, or the impact of what I'm doing is outside of my integrity. And that that is a gift. I'm not saying it's an easy one to give or receive, but it is absolutely a gift. Because I want to be right, like the best version of myself, I want to be in alignment,

I want to be integrated with my integrity. So that's one piece I would offer. I think that some of us don't actually know what our integrity is, like, we don't know, like what we would want to be supported and accountability around. And I think that that's an important kind of question to ask ourselves, right? Like, what do we stand for? Like, what are the values that we're trying to uphold? and my ancestors and my descendants a lot when I think about what that is. It's where I feel like I connect with a sense of purpose, especially because I feel like I'm doing work that is for my descendants. Like I'm accountable to them. The other thing I would say is that, so Mia Mingus, who is a transformative justice practitioner and a disability justice activist, justice practitioner and a disability justice activist has taught me a ton about accountability. And she would say, like, no one can hold us accountable. We can only hold ourselves accountable. Other people can support us holding ourselves accountable, but we hold ourselves

accountable. And then she would also say that if you are not having conversations with the people in your life who you know could and would be able to check you when you are fucking up, like if you're not actually explicitly having those conversations about accountability, then you are living an unaccountable life. conversations about accountability, then you are living an unaccountable life, that we actually need to identify and have conversations with people who can play that role for us. And for me, it was really interesting to think about who those people were, right? Like, it's not always gonna be your best friend, right? Like, sometimes the role of people in your life is to like, be your cheerleader, to be the person who, you know, when you are wronged, like matches your outrage, like all of that stuff, right? Like you have those people in your life. And then sometimes it's like very different people who are the ones who are going to meet your outrage with compassion or a different perspective for whatever is outraging you. People who maybe you're not as close to might be the ones who are going to call you up when

they see you acting out of pocket. So I think it's like figuring out who those people are for us, I think is really important. Another, you know, one of the things that that makes accountability challenging is our relationship with shame. My therapist, who I mentioned multiple times in the book, because she has said so many brilliant things to me, explained to me like this just blew my mind, and I love it. So we're familiar with kind of our fear response, right? The that like we have this like, fight or flight or befriend or fawn kind of responses to fear. And that it is about survival, right? Like, the bear is chasing us, you go like, pretend you're dead or run up a tree or offer the bear a piece of cake.

I don't know, whatever it is, right? We have these different things that we do that are like systemic responses to things that make us afraid. They're survival responses. They're meant to keep us alive. Shame is also a survival response. Shame is also a survival response. And it is meant to keep us from doing things that would get us kicked out of the tribe. Our shame response is similar to our fear response in that often, when we experience shame, we feel like we're going to die in some way. Because getting kicked

out of the tribe, we'd like you would die, right? Like, you know, back in the day when we lived in a way that was more communal, like not being part of the community would mean you're, you know, off on a like out in the forest by yourself, like gonna get eaten by wolves or starve or not have shelter or whatever, right? Break your leg and not get taken care of. For me, understanding that about my own shame responses and understanding that about other people's shame responses, like deeply softened me to what happens when accountability gets surfaced. So for me, it's like, it's easier now, right? Because I've done some work on my experience of shame. It's easier now for my loved ones to support my accountability, they can call me out, because I'm not going to be as reactive. And then for me, I think a lot about is my purpose in addressing the way that somebody is acting out of pocket? I'm like, is it about supporting them and their accountability and changing their behavior? Or is it about shaming them? And like,

there is a place for shame. I'm not saying that we should like never do that. Like, you know, for example, you know, if you're in a context, and there's like, one queer person, and somebody is saying something homophobic, right? For me, like, I'm going to be trying to protect the like, one queer person who's in that situation. So I'm going to make clear that it's unacceptable for that behavior to be happening in the space we're in. That might mean kicking the person out, it might mean that they need to shut up. Later, I might go and engage with them around some potential growth and change that they can engage in.

But in the situation where I'm like, I want to make sure that this one person feels protected. It's not about trying to change this person. It's about stopping their behavior. It's not about changing their thinking or their feeling. So shame can be useful in that way. But I think we have a culture in which we all have this kind of like, you know, our shame, our shame response has been hijacked by the way our culture functions in the same way that our fear response has been hijacked. We all have these outsized shame responses, we don't understand what shame is, we are deeply reactive. And I think that in general, if we had more empathy for what shame does inside of us, inside of, you know, everyone inside of us inside of others, inside of everyone, inside of us, inside of others.

I feel like the ways in which we could support accountability would be so much more effective. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I love this idea of seeing feedback as a gift, like feeling that feedback is a gift. And also i heard you say like maybe even establishing before calling someone in that we love them or that we care about them right because of that that shame coming from perception of like losing the tribe yeah thank you for that and so to close i just want to offer the invitations that i've heard and see if you have any others for the listeners. So I heard to practice futurist thinking. So to be able to imagine a world that is more equitable, regenerative, and just, and then think how we can activate or participate in that world now. We have the invitation of learning about or engaging in relationship anarchy, so expanding our connections and maybe developing

a relationship ecosystem. The invitation to turn towards one another instead of away from one another, particularly in times of crisis, and then of course before crisis, so that we're more resilient in times of crisis, but that we have this choice between disaster capitalism and higher walls and weapons, or we have the choice of disaster capitalism and higher walls and weapons, or we have the choice of turning towards one another and mutual aid and solidarity and connection and support. The invitation to get to know our neighbors, whether it's someone just moving in or someone that's been there for a while. The invitation to not call the police to find other ways to intervene or talk or connect, whether that's with other folks or an ally, someone who might be more appropriate for the situation. The invitation

to look at our needs and ask how can community meet our needs? How can we unhook from capitalism and find more collaborative or solidaristic ways of meeting our needs and also offering the ways we can help others meet their needs. And then finally, this invitation to practice accountability, practice those conversations, find who can be our accountability buddies and engage in that calling each other in and being more open to being called in. And so those are the ones I heard. I want to know if you have any other invitations for our listeners. And one last thing is, I do know so many people who tell me, oh, I just haven't found my people or my community.

They maybe have lots of people in their life, but really not this feeling of community. So I'm wondering if you have any invitations for how to cultivate or find community and just any other closing invitations for our listeners. First of all, it was amazing that you just captured all of that. That was beautiful to listen to. I have also this piece about like, you know, being able to find your people, which is such a, it's such a painful place to be when, especially when you know a lot of people, but you don't feel like belonging, you know, and I feel like it is often a long journey. And I think it's important to just like, understand that you're not like, it just sometimes takes time. So the

place that I feel like I go to when I am, for so many reasons, but like, you know, if I'm feeling a sense of being unmoored, like I'm not quite clear where the path forward is, if I'm feeling a little lost, if I'm feeling despair, and in particular, if I'm someplace and I feel like I don't have my people with me, right? I don't have the sense of belonging is to take a breath and feel gravity, feel the way that the earth is holding me to the ground. holding me to the ground. You know, even if I'm, you know, in a building, like just like feeling grounded to like through the concrete, through the wood, the rebar, like whatever, to the earth. Gravity keeps us all from spinning off into space. It's a reminder from the earth that we belong here. And no matter what someone says to you, what the culture that you are in tells you about who you are, the earth is constantly reminding us that we are held and that we belong.

You've been listening to an Upstream Conversation with Mia Birdsong, author of How We Show Up, Reclaiming Family, Friendship, and Community. Please check the show notes for links to any of the resources mentioned in this conversation. Thank you to Carolyn Rader for this episode's cover art and to Wipers for the intermission music. Upstream theme music was composed by me, Robbie. Upstream is a labor of love. We couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at upstreampodcast.org forward slash support. And because we're fiscally sponsored by the nonprofit Independent Arts and Media, all donations to Upstream in the U.S. are tax-exempt. All donations to Upstream in the U.S. are tax-exempt.

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