Upstream - Palestine Pt. 6: One State with Ghada Karmi

Episode Date: January 2, 2024

It may seem like a distant dream to imagine that the decades-long settler-colonial project which is Israel could finally end and transform into a state where all faiths, ethnicities, and cultures could thrive together in their diversity and equality. It seems like a distant dream because, as we all know, the reality that we’re witnessing is the opposite of that — it’s an escalation of an already ruthless and bloody ethnic cleansing campaign that officially began in 1948.  Although a democratic, multi-ethnic, multicultural, multi-religious state may seem like an exercise in imagination, it’s hardly a futile pursuit. We must constantly be exercising our imagination and dreaming of a better world, not only because it’s important to exercise those muscles of hope, but because in doing so we’re also spreading the seeds of knowledge and inspiration which could themselves affect change.  To talk about what could be, we’ve brought on Ghada Karmi, a Palestinian-born academic, physician and author of many books, including In Search of Fatima: A Palestinian Story, and, most recently, One State: The Only Democratic Future for Palestine-Israel, published by Pluto Press. This is part 6 of our ongoing series on Palestine.  Ghada was a young child in Palestine during the 1948 Nakba, or catastrophe, and has spent many decades involved in the movement for Palestinian liberation. In this conversation, we discuss why a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea is the only just way forward, what some of the barriers to this happening are, what the sentiment of many Palestinains is when thinking about living side-by-side with Israelis in a democratic state, how this dream might turn into a reality, and much more. Further Resources: One State The Only Democratic Future for Palestine-Israel, by Ghada Karmi Upstream: Palestine Pt. 1: A Socialist Introduction with Sumaya Awad Upstream: Palestine Pt. 2: Justice for Some with Noura Erakat Upstream: Palestine Pt. 3: Settler-Colonialism and Medical Apartheid with Rupa Marya & Jess Ghannam Upstream: Palestine Pt. 4: False Solutions and Paths of Resistance with Sumaya Awad Upstream: Palestine Pt. 5: The Political Economy of Palestine with Adam Hanieh Donate to Middle Eastern Children's Alliance (MECA) Anera: Provide urgent humanitarian aid to Palestinians Write your member of Congress to demand an immediate ceasefire The cover art for this episode was originally designed by Thomas Greenwood and was slightly adapted by Carolyn Raider for this episode. This episode of Upstream was made possible with support from listeners like you. Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at  upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Before October 7th, people like me had come to the conclusion that there was only one way that this hideous tragedy that is between Israel and Palestinianism, tragedy. There is only one way really that it can be resolved. And for a very good reason, I put forward these ideas, I expounded on them, analyzed them in my book One State, to explain that if you look at all the possible permutations of how this situation can go, and if you do not accept that a continuation of the status quo is acceptable, and clearly I and all rights thinking people do not accept the current situation as acceptable, then you got to ask yourself, what is acceptable? Well, it seems to me there is only one way,

and that is for the people who are currently living there, to live together in a democratic state. You are listening to upstream. Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. A podcast of documentaries and conversations that invites you to unlearn everything you thought you knew about economics. I'm Dela Duncan.

And I'm Robert Rind. It may seem like a distant dream to imagine that the decades-long settler colonial project which is Israel could finally end and transform into a state where all faiths, ethnicities, and cultures could thrive together in their diversity and equality. It seems like a distant dream because as we all know, the reality that we're witnessing is the opposite of that. It's an escalation of an already ruthless and bloody ethnic cleansing campaign that officially began in 1948. Although a democratic, multi-ethnic, multicultural, multi-religious state may seem like an exercise

in imagination, it's hardly a futile pursuit. We must constantly be exercising our imagination and dreaming of a better world, not only because it's important to exercise those muscles of hope, but because in doing so, we're also spreading the seeds of knowledge and inspiration, which could themselves affect change. which could themselves affect change. To talk about what could be, we've brought on Gata Karmie, a Palestinian-born academic physician and author of many books including In Search of Fatima, a Palestinian story, and most recently,

one state, the only democratic future for Palestine Israel. Gata was a young child in Palestine during the 1948 Nakhva or Catastrophe, and has spent many decades involved in the movement for Palestinian liberation. In this conversation, we discuss why a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea is the only just way forward, what some of the barriers to this happening are, what the sentiment of many Palestinians is when thinking about living side by side with Israelis in a democratic state, how this dream might turn into a reality, and much more. And just a quick update, we're still finalizing the details for our upcoming Patreon, so stay

tuned. If all goes according to plan, we should have it up and ready to go this month with our first Patreon episode being an interview with Roger Kirin and Thomas Kenney on their excellent book, Socialism Betrayed, Behind the Collapse of the Soviet Union. And finally, upstream is entirely listener-funded. We couldn't do this without the support of you, our listeners and fans. If you haven't already, and if you can, if you're in a place where you can afford to do so, and if it's important for you to keep upstream sustainable,

please consider going to upstreampodcast.org forward slash support to make a recurring monthly or one-time donation. Also, if you can, please go to Apple Podcasts and Spotify to rate, subscribe, and leave us a review there. This really helps get upstream in front of more eyes and into more ears. We don't have a marketing budget or anything like that for upstream, so we really do rely on listeners like you to help grow our audience and spread the word. Thank you. And now here's Robert in conversation with Gata Karmie.

Hi, Bada. It is great to have you on the show. And I'm wondering if you can maybe start by telling us a little bit about the work that you do and maybe also a little bit about your personal history. I know that you were a young child in Palestine during the knock-bott. So yeah, maybe if you could just introduce yourself for our listeners. Yes, yes, hello, hello to you. Yeah, I'm somebody who was witness to the events of 1948. We are a dwindling number and for that reason, if for no other, we're very, very important witnesses And for that reason, if for no other, we're very, very important witnesses to history. So, I was a child in Jerusalem, which is where I was born, when matters began to get more and more serious,

more and more dangerous in our neighborhood, we were an ordinary family, leading an ordinary life. And honestly, if it had not been for the NACBAR, the 1948 disaster for the Palestinians, if it had not been for that, nobody would have heard of me. And I wish to God it had been like that. I would have preferred it. However, there we are, I lived through the experience of being forced out with my family and having to find somewhere else to go, leaving our home,

very much believing we were going to go back, that it was just a short time, you know, and of course, it never happened, we were never allowed back. So in our case we went to Damascus because fortunately my grandparents lived there and so we found some refuge very crowded because my mother's sister and her family were there already. So it was very tough. But then my father got work in London and that's how we made that second move to England where I was educated and where I grew up. Now what do I do? Well I became a doctor of medicine and practiced, but you know when you're Palestinian it's not just one of those aspects of identity as you might say I'm Finnish, say, or you know I'm Danish or something, it's not like that, it carries with it not only a tremendous history, but also an injustice, a need to try and redress the injustice.

That's what being Palestinian means. And so, I, like so many others, turned to political activism, and I became a political activist for Palestine in London. I did a lot of activist work for the Palestine cause. I established the first Palestinian British charity in the early 1970s. I also established, I suppose, in what I would call an information campaign on Palestine called Palestine Action, again in the early 1970s, and we worked really very hard because you could realize that in the 1970s, in Britain and I presume all over the West, Palestine had more or less ceased to exist. People didn't really know what had happened. Israel was established. People supported Israel, and that was fine. You know, and of course, the story of how Israel came to be was so clever. It was so clever, it was super-svasive, it invoked the Bible and talked about Israelites,

and ancient people called Israelite, and made a very strong connection between those ancient Israelites and modern-day European Jews. I mean, on the face of it really absurd, but nevertheless that's how it worked. And it was presented as Jews returning home in quotes to their ancestral homeland quotes, and that everybody's one of that. So against that heavy propaganda, we had to do what we could. And I did that for years and years and years. And I suppose I'm still an activist in a way, but you know, one changes one's mode of operation over time. And I, by the time that I had been, as opposed to an activist

for, I don't know, 20, over 20, 20, 30 years, I decided to start to write. And so I sat down and I wrote my story. That was published under the title In Search of Fatima. And it did quite well. A lot of people read it, a lot of people got to know it. And so that was a memoir. And then I did some more writing, political books. Then I did a second memoir called Return that was in 2015 and my most recent book is a book called One State, the only democratic future for Palestine Israel. So that's what I became in the end, a writer. And that's what I am now, I suppose. Great, yeah, thank you so much for that.

And I do want to spend, you to spend most of our time today exploring the themes from your book, like you mentioned, your latest book, One State, the only democratic future for Palestine, Israel. Just real quick, first, I appreciate you bringing up sort of the propaganda about supplanting biblical myths for actual history. I'm actually reading a book called Palestina,

4,000 year history right now, about a hundred pages into it, and it meticulously debunks a lot of those myths. And yeah, I actually saw that you were on the back cover with a little blurb, so that was a cool connection. But yes, to get to your book, one state. And I'm wondering, we've discussed the failures of the two state, so-called,

you know, quote, solution and the problems with the peace process industrial complex in a more technical sense already with past guests. But I'm wondering if you can walk us through maybe a bit of a broader explanation of why a two-state solution is unjust, you know, sort of from a justice framework. Like, I'm curious how Palestinians themselves feel about this. And I know it's probably not one single feeling that represents all Palestinians. But I'm wondering if you could maybe articulate a little bit from your perspective, what Palestinians think of this idea of two separate states. And why you see one single multi-ethnic state as a just solution. Yeah, I think one has to understand that Palestinian support for the two-state solution, and

there is Palestinian support for that, but people need to understand why and what that's about. In fact, if one were to accept the principle of partition, let's say, and if one were to say there's this country and it used to be called Palestine, it's currently called Israel, and it includes the remaining parts of the old Palestine, okay, so that's what we've got at the moment. Now if you were to say it would be a good idea to partition this land, well the first thing to say is you would have to partition it 50-50. It is immediately clear that it is unjust if what you are talking about is 78% of that land to be given to Israel, and that remaining 22% to be given to the Palestinian people.

That is clearly and obviously inequitable. Now you might say, well then why would Palestinians have provided any sort of support for a partition of that land even less generously than the one I've just talked about. The partition which says 78% to 22%, which is what is the so-called two-state solution. Why do they support it? Well, there are variety of motives, all of them understandable, but not one of them, one of them considers that that solution is fair or just. No Palestinian thinks that. But for many, there is a feeling of weirdness and fear of the formidable challenge of Israel, backed

by the United States and the Western world, and that take what you can. It's that sort of attitude. They throw you a crumb, take it, because you won't even have that crumb at all. And so there's that. There's let's get what we can. And then, of course, there's the other, which is very powerful for Palestinians who lived under occupation.

I don't blame them one bit. They cannot tolerate the idea of living with the Israeli army, the usurpers, the Israelis who have done them so much damage. They have a desperate desire to get rid to be on their own, even in a small space, to say this is ours and we're not going to bump into some soldier or some settler, we just are, so it's our own little independent place, free from Israelis. So I wanted to say that because you know people my often would say to you, oh yeah, but lots of Palestinians support this. What have you got against it? But that is really the basis of Palestinian support for it. Now, what have I got against it? Clearly unjust. Not only the

partition of the country is rejected. This small country with resources that are spread all over the place, there's no demarcation line within the country. So, for a start, it's a silly idea, really, to try and break up the land. But if you look at the map, truly a glance of the map should make it very clear. It cannot happen. If you look at the number of settlements there are in the West Bank, there are over 700,000 settlements living in those settlements.

Well, where are you going to put up your Palestinian state? So in terms of logistics, it's a non-starter. Not, of course, to forget that new Israeli government has ever accepted the two-state solution. And the current government says, rejected outright. No way! It's never going to happen. So, you know, even if you were dying to have

a two-state solution, you can't have it because it's not there, it's not possible to create on the ground. But let me move to the really kernel of this story. It's the basis of one's objection. And that is the issue of justice and Palestinian rights. That is the issue of justice and Palestinian rights. If people accept that the Palestinians have rights, and those rights mean that they have a right to self-determination, and they have a right to return to their original homeland. If you accept that, then you cannot accept the two-state solution. No Palestinian can exercise their right of self-determination in their homeland in the two-state solution, and there can be no refugee return to the two-state solution, the sliver that 22% that cannot

happen. So you know what I always say to people is if you want to promote this solution then you have to come clean. You have to say I don't care about Palestinian rights, they will get partial rights but not all their rights, they're not going to get it. And that's what I believe, and that's why there has to be a two-state solution. They have to say it, and they have to be absolutely honest. But of course, for people like me, for Palestinians, for all decent people in this world, that position is not acceptable. You can't say, no, no, you can't have your full rights.

You give you something, but it will fall short of what is your legal rights, so that that is not acceptable, but at least it would be honest if the people who promotes the two-state solution what to come out and say it. So since it's clear that no Israeli administration is interested in two states, in fact, they're actively working against that and have been for decades now, what do you think Israel's current goals are in terms of the, you know, not only just, you know, not only just, you know, the future of the Gaza Strip, which is the most, I guess, prominent part of Palestine,

which we're hearing about, of course, but more broadly, too, like the future of Palestinians in general. And I'm wondering if you think it's helpful to look at the latest escalation and violence as part of an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign that really began in 1948 or even earlier. Yes, I do. I not only think it's helpful, I think it's essential. I think people really need to understand that that's what Israel is doing.

It has tried, if we go back to 1948, Israel, as far as the Israelis are concerned, Israel made a big mistake. It didn't fight on and try to expel the total population of Palestine. This is 1948 and grab the country for themselves. They stopped short as a result of which over 100,000 Palestinians remained in what is now Israel, and the rest became refugees. But so really, they didn't get rid of the total population. Furthermore, they didn't grab the totality of the territory. They're hence, that's why you have a West Bank, that's why you have Gaza. Because they didn't conquer those. So, from the point of view of Israel, that was a big mistake. And they want to put it right.

They have been slowly expelling Palestinians ever since that time, in a variety of ways, some very obvious, some not so obvious, 1967 war for example, the Arab is really war, the Israelis were able to get rid of nearly 300,000 Palestinians out of the the West Bank and the ethnic cleansing has gone on slowly ever since. Now when we come up to the current events since October 7th, at some point, I'm not certain whether this occurred to them immediately on October 7th or whether, which I think is more likely, it started dawn on them that here is a lifetime opportunity to get rid of the rest of the Palestinian people, which they had wanted to do from the beginning. And here they have a chance to do it.

It seems to me clear that if you look at what their actions are showing, if you look at their behaviour on the West Bank, in which they've been arming these brutal settlers and setting them on people and making life very difficult, the aim of all this is clear. People would have to be quite unintelligent, if they can't actually see what this amounts to. What it is amounting to is getting them to leave or literally kicking them out. In the case of Gaza, you'll note they've got them all cooped up right in the South by the Egyptian border. That is not an accident, and their lives are so unlivable, they are so appalling that if the gates were opened to Egypt, it is believed by Israel,

many would go, and that would be wonderful, it would be fulfilling the plan, then you can see that when it has to conclude that is what is in their minds, because of the way they've behaved, the way they've pushed people, constantly getting them to move, constantly herding them together, right up against the Egyptian, the border with Egypt, on the one hand, on the other in the West Bank, the brutality of the army and the settlers, it's so violent, it's so much on the increase that the aim there is also not mysterious. So the hope is that the people of the West Bank will either leave or be expelled to Jordan and the people of Gaza will be expelled to

Egypt. That's the plan or that's the idea that Israel is working on. There's certainly a lot of ongoing political and geopolitical developments that are unfolding and I guess we'll just have to wait and see how this all develops. And you know when Palestine hit headlines again in October, I think a lot of people were quite confused about what a solution to all of this might be. A two-state solution, a single state, what would happen to Israelis if there was a single Palestinian state. So I'm wondering what a single state might look like.

And importantly too, like, is there precedent in this region to have multiple faith communities and ethnicities living together? And what might that look like? And importantly too, what are some of the things that would have to change and some of the barriers that would have to be overcome to get there? Yeah, you know, before October 7th,

people like me had come to the conclusion that there is only one way that this hideous tragedy, that is between Israel and the Palestinian as this tragedy. There is only one way really, that it can be resolved. And for very good reason, I put forward these ideas, I expounded on them, analyzed them in my book One State, to explain that if you look at all the possible permutations of how this situation can go, and if you do not accept that a continuation of the status quo is acceptable, and clearly I and all right-thinking people do not accept the current situation as acceptable, then you got to ask yourself, what is acceptable? Well, it seems to me there is only one way,

It seems to me there is only one way and that is for the people who are currently living there to live together in a democratic state. Now what I mean by the people living there, I'm talking about the land between the river and the sea. That's between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. In that area there are two peoples that currently live. Roughly half, about 7 million, are Jewish Israelis, and roughly half 7.5 million are Palestinian Arabs. The whole territory, this territory between the river and the sea that I'm talking about, is ruled by one sovereign government, and that is Israel. Of course, the problem with that is that the Israelis discriminate against the Palestinian Arabs. They have committed many transgressions and crimes against them, and that is not a way to go on. That doesn't resolve the issue at all.

So if you look at it like this, you've got this territory, you've got these two different people. So what are you going to do? You know, are you really going to kill 7.5 million Palestinian Arabs, or are you Arabs going to kill 7 million Israeli Jews or as many as you can? Of course not, of course not. The only practical way and the only sensible way to resolve this is for them to see where they are, where they live, but instead of having a government which discriminates against the Palestinian half and a government which is prepared to commit crimes against the Palestinian half, if you want to do this? The government has to change.

It has to become a democratic government, which represents the people who live there. Now, I've added to that in my prescription of this that the Palestinian half is incomplete, because the Palestinians who reside currently in Palestine, the current remnants of Palestine, they're not the whole people of Palestine, the whole people are living in camps or in exile, they need to come home. So all those people, the indigenous population population on the one hand and the descendants of settlers, of Jewish settlers from

outside, now called Israelis, and these people have to be able to live together in peace and in a democratic state. That to me is the only way forward. However, if you look at October 7th, one has a kind of reluctance, even from where I'm sitting, to talk about living with and embracing everybody, embracing each other, given the horror that we're seeing, given the inevitable reaction on the part of the victims, that's

the Palestinians, and on the part of many Jews who also feel victimized by Hamas. You know, it's very difficult to do this. One has to be quite cool-headed and to say, all right, that's how it is now. Nobody is talking about this very minute, but we are talking about its trajectory for the future. And that I think remains valid. It's not been changed by what happened on October 7th and all the horror that's been unleashed on Gaza. Really doesn't change the fundamental problem here. And so I remain very much of that view. Your listening to an upstream conversation with Gata Karmie, author of One State,

the only democratic future for Palestine, Israel, will be right back. Ono ka lang sa kib, ya, wakani wala kimi ako lang sa kib, ah, wala, alas sa kib, mo kaya sa kib, mo kaya sa kib, mo zemig ah, na lang hafun ka sa lang sa kib, وزميه نننها فنكسله نحن نننها جاكسله نتباني نننها فنكسله

نحن نننها جاكسله نتباني ووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووو Oh Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna go home.

I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna go home. وطمولة واسيك وصرائي ولذر يليدت وطمولة سديني سبيع وليدت في طارع وطمولتورة العقلان وطميه ونه دوقت اشتو اشراكاً طرقاً تشتو اشريك

عالو جالس تيكاً وطنه طورة عقلان I'm a little bit more blue Oh, oh, oh, oh Where am I? I'm a little bit more blue I'm a little bit more blue I'm a little bit more And I'm not so good at playboy I'm a little bit more I'm a little bit more blue I'm a little bit more blue 1.5% ms. 1.5% ms. 1.5% ms. 1.5% ms.

1.5% ms. 1.5% ms. 1.5% ms. 1.5% ms. 1.5% ms. 1.5% ms. 1.5% ms. 1.5% ms.

1.5% ms. 1.5 the lines on the back of the head. 1. Draw the lines on the back of the head. 1. Draw the line on the back of the head. That was Entezerini by Faircott All-Aird, re-edited and re-released by the German record label Habibi Funk. Faircott All-Eard is a Lebanese band from the 1970s, and the lyrics to many of their songs come from Palestinian poetry. The lyrics in this particular track are from the poet Sami Al-Khassam, we've shared them in the show notes. Now back to our conversation with Gata Karmee.

So before the break we were talking about the immense challenges when thinking about the practicalities of a one-state solution. And of course, there is a lot of difference in the age of settler colonialism and capitalist imperialism, but that being said, there is a lot of precedent for the region between the river and the sea for Palestine being a land where multiple faith communities and multiple ethnicities lived side-by-side in relative harmony. And you know one of the issues is that Zionists specifically try to frame what's going on in Palestine is this sort of millennial long religious conflict like an intractable war between two people that will, you know, maybe never be resolved, but that's really not the case at all

that's definitely a myth. And when you look at the history and the archaeological evidence from the region, you know, all the way from the Bronze Age through to the Ottoman period and, you know, into the 20th century, even this has been a region where multiple faiths existed side by side and flourished under really like a rich diversity of cultures and regions. Yeah, you're quite right. You're quite right. I mean, Palestine in 1948 was, if you like, a mosaic of different peoples from different parts of the world, although of course we mustn't forget that the majority of the population, over 90% were Palestinian Arab. However, we're talking about considerable minorities, really a mosaic of different people all living together without strife. So this is very much a tradition that has been around for thousands of years in that particular part

of the world. So that is not something that would be alien to the Palestinians. However, we really do have a problem and there is a limit to how much we can talk about the multicultural history of Palestine and so on. There's a limit. Because of Zionism, you see, one of the things I avoided talking about when I was trying to get across the idea of why living together in one democratic state is good, why that's a good idea, I didn't make something really very clear. And it is this.

The current state of Israel is a Zionist state. Its official ideology is Zionism, and Zionism is exclusive. It's not multicultural. It is not welcome, non-Jews. It believes in a territory that is there for Jews, for Jews, or at least where the majority are Jews. So that's where the majority are Jews. So that's the essence of Zionism. Now that kind of ideology doesn't work with the sort of future I'm looking forward to

seeing. It doesn't work. So it's very clear to me that Zionism has to go. It has to go. It is not an ideal, like fascism or like other ideologies which are nobody would accept anymore. And so it's got to go. Now only when Jews living in Israel are released from this ideology which says that the place is ours and only ours and nobody else can share it unless that

kind of belief system is dismantled What I'm talking about cannot happen. It's a recipe for continued strife So it's it's really as I say it's very important to disentangle all this. On the one hand, you've got a Palestinian, Arab population, part of the Arab world, which has always had minorities and accepts them and they live there. Why do you think they exist? I mean, why do assyrians exist today? Why do caldians, we have minorities like this?

How is that? It's because they were not killed and they were not destroyed because of that, exactly, that kind of multicultural tolerance. So on the one hand, we've got that as a factor, but on the other, we've got a post to it, an ideology which is exclusivist and says no, this land is for us and for us only and if you threaten us we'll kill you. So you can see that this sort of ideology has to be dismantled also. And you asked me, by the way, are there parallels, are there examples? Well, I would say to begin with, that there are no exact parallels to this situation.

I think it's unique. I really do. Because here you have an extraordinary story in which a bunch of European settlers turn up with the help of an imperial power, plant themselves in Palestine, and proceed to get rid of the indigenous population and take their place, and continue to be backed by Western states as usurpers, as usurpers and murderers because they've killed so many Palestinians, expelled so many. So you've got a state which is supported as it is. You know, I can't say this often enough. It's the support for Israel, is an Israel of the type we see. We know it's not a support for some kind of ideal, wonderful utopia. This is the Israel of the West's supports. So in a sense, it's really very difficult for me to think of any other parallel, maybe South Africa. Because if you think that you had, again, a ruling white population, which had a belief

in its own superiority, and it despised the blacks, and so on, but then things changed, and we now have a democracy in South Africa. But in terms of different people from different parts of the world living together, yes, if you look at Switzerland, for example, or even Belgium, there are examples of people who live together perfectly happily, given a democratic structure. And then now if we want to look at the real parallel to Israel, we're looking at the settler-colonialists

in Canada, in Australia, in the United States. These people went out, they tried to exterminate or expel the indigenous population, take their place. However, they have ended up as multicultural, multi-ethnic societies, not, can't be avoided. Israel is the only one of these settler colonies which goes on insisting that the country must be for its own use, solus, and it's only for people who are called Jews and nobody else. So it's really very difficult this. Yeah, absolutely. I'm really glad that you brought that all up. And I think, yeah, it's an essential point about Zionism and that it's fascist, white supremacist, colonial underpinnings. And what do you do with all that, especially the fact that you have 90% or almost 90% of the Israeli population

supporting what's happening right now, the support, essentially supporting the ongoing genocide. So, and you know, Israel loves to characterize itself too, is the only democratic state in the Middle East, and I think anybody who peaks behind the curtains on that can, can definitely see that that's actually definitely not the case. It's actually in a part-tied state. I'm wondering if you can maybe talk a little bit about, and I know we're sort of thinking about this all in the long term, and I don't think many people have any faith that anything will, towards a one-state solution is gonna happen anytime soon,

but I'm wondering just thinking in the long term, what are some practical steps and some very real barriers that must be, aside from, you know, we talked about Zionism as a night ideology, but I'm thinking like practically on the ground, give people a sense of what would have to be dismantled to decolonize the area and then what some steps could be in order to undo the unjust and sort of white supremacist and colonial underpinnings of Israel and to create a democratic state that exists from the river to the sea. Yeah, well, look, it's a very, very frightening challenge.

It's huge. It's huge. However, not insurmountable. And I have often said, when people, when I talk about the one democratic state, my usually audience usually responds almost immediately by saying, oh no no, the Israelis won't have it, the Americans won't have it, it's not, I've always answered which I'm going to say now again to your listeners, that when one talks about the idea of a democratic state where people live together in equality, irrespective of race, religion, ethnicity, etc. I put that idea to you and I say to you, is this good? Is this something you will consider this a good? Is this something you would like to see? Now, if the answer to that is yes,

because that is the immediate stumbling block. The moment you talk about this, as an idea you immediately get faced with objections. Well they'll never accept it. There this Arabs hate Jews, all the stuff. They jump over the first essential step in this which is is it a good idea. And never mind let's talk about how it's going to happen next. Let's first agree that this is desirable, that this is an end you would like to see for this tormented area of the world, that you would like to see a democratic dispensation which people can calm down, live equal lives in peace. If you agree with me that that is a good thing, that it is something we want to aim at, then our next assignment is to work out how it can be made to happen. And you know, I really believe if we had enough people, enough people, whether they are in politics, out of politics, ordinary people, whoever, who subscribed to the idea of just

a scribe, who said how nice that would be, how much we'd like to see that. If a larger and larger number in the world said yes, we're on board for this, then believe me, the task of implementing it would be much simpler. So I wanted to make that point because it's very important when people think about this that they don't jumble up their minds, where they immediately, ah, Israel is this, a Palestinian never have it, more about the out, what about the Islamist, what about? Okay, so that's the first thing.

Now, in terms of what we should be really looking at as obstacles, I'm now assuming we are agreed at least that this is a good idea. So the next question would be, how do we have a hope of getting there? Well, you know, one has to be first of all very open, very honest about the obstacles. They're not ones that people have really considered because they are more than meets the eye. And we need to be honest, that neither side, and by that I mean the Jewish Israelis and the Palestinian Arabs, neither of them

want to live together. Let's face it. So why, what's wrong? Well, let's take the Israeli side. Remember that Israeli ordinary Israeli people are colonizers. They don't probably don't think of themselves like that. They don't use that sort of terminology, but that is what they are. And they are enjoying the fruits of colonization

because of the way that Israel dominates the whole territory of Palestine, takes the resources, very unequal leaves the Palestinians, very little, all the rest of that. So they are actually sharing in a colonial setup. And they like it. It's comfortable, it's nice, life is good. It's that they don't want to give that up. Secondly, they are reared on a diet of dislike of Arabs, of contempt for Arabs, really. And the idea that these Arabs should come and live with them as equal citizens is an asthma. Okay, let's face it. Now, if you look at the other side,

it's very clear why they would not want this. They cannot face, first of all they cannot face the idea of living side by side with people who who usurped their country, killed them, killed their children, treated them with brutality, cruelty and brutality. So how can they live with them? There is another fear the Palestinian is have. They're not as advanced as the Jewish Israelis, most of whom have Western origins. They will fear, they greatly fear, they'll become second-class citizens, that they will become the sort of slaves of these others who continue to be supremacists. So these are real fears and one has to take them into account when you start to think

about how this is going to happen. You have to take that into account. So when you are armed with information, when you understand what your difficulties are of what you're doing, your chances of succeeding are higher. And it's really what I would like very much for people to think about or carry away from this, is that it's a monumental task, but it's a very worthwhile and noble task. Therefore, we should all work on it together. I wanted to add to it, like I do think that there is, I mean, absolutely, like as a Palestinian, how on earth would you want to live next

of the people that colonized you? Like you said, have been slaughtering you and your family and your children and your parents and your brothers and sisters and your friends for decades now. And then you see those TikTok videos that Israelis put out that are just so disgustingly racist. And you can just see that they have no regard at all for the humanity of Palestinians. And I've always thought a one state solution is an incredibly generous offer to the Israelis. Like if there was a just solution half of the country, half of Israelis would be sent to the hagg, you know?

Like, so I really do appreciate you bringing that up and just framing this whole conversation as a huge compromise for one state solution. Like, it's a huge compromise on the side of the Palestinians. You know, when I talk about the one state idea to fellow Palestinians, most of them really don't like it. They don't like me talking like that.

But then I've often said, fine, what is it you want them? And they'll say, we don't want these people here at all, we don't want them. So my answer has been, which I can fully understand, but my answer has always been, as anybody with a moral sense, obviously we would say, you see to them, okay, but they're here, they're here.

So it's no good saying, I don't want them here. So are you proposing to kill them all and throw them into the sea as they did to us in 1948? Of course, immediately people say, no, no, no, we wouldn't want to do that. All right, well then, then question then is, what do you want to do? They're there. So it's not from the Palestinian end, by the way. It's not a proposal I've put forward saying, how can we make the lives of Jewish Israelis

and Palestinian Arabs so much better? So worried about the Jewish Israelis. I'm so worried about the Palestinian's race. I'm so worried about the Palestinian. It's not like that. It's that the Palestinians have been unjustly treated. They have lived rotten lives since 1948. Let's face it. Really rotten. And by time, it's by time they had a release from this sentence, this long-term sentence that has been imposed on them. Now, so when we've said, okay, the best way is we go back to our country. We go back to Palestine. That's the way to redress the injustice. We go back to Palestine, then I say to you, okay, but look, there's these people. There's a lot of

them and there's settlers and children of settlers and grandchildren of settlers. What are we going to do about them? It's at that point that people then begin to shut up because you cannot talk about this as a problem with a handy solution. You've got this population. It is regrettable and I say that with all my heart it is regrettable that these settlers are there. They should not be there. They should never have come but they are there. They should not be there, they should never have come, but they are there. So therefore, we have to be true to ourselves, to our good natures, and to say, we will live together with you, no matter what you did to us. Although we cannot forget that, but we are human, and we understand that you have nowhere to go and therefore you

must stay where you are and we will live together with you in equality. Never forget though, the message would be to them. This is a huge sacrifice for us, but it is for the future. So that's one version of it. It's not a version. I mean, this is how it is. However, if you really want my opinion about how this might be dealt with in practical terms, I will put forward something which I put forward in the book. And that is all of this can be expedited. If the Palestinian side could be persuaded to get themselves organized, to mobilize into a campaign and to demand equal rights, If the Palestinians currently on the occupation were to run a really big and clever campaign which says to the world, we demand equal rights with Jewish Israelis.

Israel is ruling us, but ruling us as people without rights. We cannot have that. We accept that Israel is the state. Within that state, you have citizens who are Jewish, with full rights, and we are Palestinians with no rights at all. We are demanding that we should have equal rights with these other citizens of the state which is ruling us. It is entirely sensible, understandable, request. Now if we were to follow my idea through supposing there really was a campaign like this on the part of the Palestinians. They caught themselves work together.

They worked hard. They realized what they need to do. And they set up a campaign along the lines of South Africa, where South Africa was demonic. South Africans weren't demanding that the Afrikanas should be expelled or killed. They were saying, we'll live together, but we have to live together with equality. Same thing here, same thing here. We are having to live together, but we have to do it in equality.

Now, if such a message were to become prevalent and strong and worldwide, etc., Israel would have to respond in some way. It really would have to. Either it will start killing more and more Palestinians in order to shut them up, or it has to try and find some accommodation. Now, after Gaza, you might be tempted to say, well, it's got away with Gaza, So why can't it go on killing Palestinians? Well, it's a scot. I mean, it just can't do that. So in the end, any way in which Israel moves is wrong. So if they start killing and slaughtering

all the Palestinian people, that's no good. And if they refuse and reject and say, you cannot have your rights, you cannot have your right, but we're going to go on ruling you, that's also wrong. They can't do it right, except by saying, all right, let's see about this, let's see about your right, okay, we will look at this and so on. Now, if the Palestinians again continue with this story, if the Palestinians were to acquire citizenship of Israel, that's the end of Zionism. I assure you, we don't have to have great speeches and writings and I see end of Zionism because Palestinians are a majority.

It's not a Jewish majority state anymore. So it's not killing Jews, it's just removing the ideology of the state that currently rules them. So they're not, that's the end of Zionism, really. Now what I would predict further is that whether it happened or even begin to happen, there would be a very large emigration from Israel. That I really predict safely because if the kinds of the Israelis with the sorts of attitude that you've described so ably, the racism, the contempt, all of that, such people would literally rather die than live with the despised race, that's

the Palestinians, and they would leave and go elsewhere. Those with the dual citizenship, I've no idea how many there are in Israel, but those would go to the country of their second citizenship. Many others would turn up in the West, or do their best to do that. So that minimized it already begins to minimize the problem. Now, of course, I'm speaking almost in theoretical terms. I would love to see such a movement for equal rights. I would love to see that because it's irrefutable. You cannot say that equal rights is wrong. You cannot say you're threatening the Israelis by demanding equal rights.

You cannot. And therefore, it sets you thinking, and it sets you with any luck, all the people in this world now today, because of Gaza, who support Palestine, so, so strongly, so powerful, so warmly, those people need to back the campaign for equality, for Palestinians Palestinians in the current situation, where there are Jewish Israelis, as well.

Everybody must be equal. And it seems to me in that way, one's trying, well, first of all, you're trying a different approach to all this, where there's not war-like, and it is not talking about cutting up historic Palestine, and it is not talking about maintaining refugee camps, which is what we have got at the moment since 1948. It is not. It is taking another approach. It is saying, let's end all this misery and injustice, and the ideology that created it, which is Zionism, that's the thing that has to go. Oh, man, there are so many threads that I want to pull on,

but I know they were at time. So, you know, maybe at some point in the future, we can do a part two and talk a little bit more because I'm just thinking of, every time you talk about this because I'm just thinking of every time you talk about this, I'm just thinking of all the practical barriers and just thinking about us here in the United States, particularly, and Israel wouldn't be able to be doing what it's doing without our support and material support and our propaganda campaigns and everything. And it's such a huge part of the equation.

And I know. That's on us here in the U.S. I know, but listen, do you not... I mean, I'm encouraged by the popular support for Palestine. I've never seen anything like it. You know, it is a factor that should give us hope. Do you not think? I...

I'm a little bit more cynical because I feel like the connection between popular will in the United States and policy is almost nonexistent. Yeah. Yeah. And I just don't know, you know, what we can do. I mean, we've on the left here in the United States, people have done direct actions, you know, against like weapons manufacturers, against, uh, and docs trying to stop ships, cargo ships with, uh, weapons from getting to Israel. Those have been unsuccessful. In fact, a lot of the activists, a number of the activists are being charged with recode charges, which is going to potentially land them in prison for decades. And, you know, we see huge turnouts on the streets

hasn't made a single difference in policy from the Biden administration. So it's tough. I think really, just like you talk about the solution overall and the one state solution in Palestine, it's also a long-term solution here in the United States. I think it's a matter of organizing and building up the left to a place where we can actually exert influence and have material impact on policy, which is just not even, we're not

even close to that right now. So, not a fun note to really end on or think about, but that's just kind of where I land on this. No, no, no, believe me, and I fully understand what you're saying, and I agree with you, of how could I not agree? I suppose, put it another way. The fact that you've done this podcast with me, and I can talk about these sorts of ideas, it's very important for people to have a range of ideas that they can think about. I'm trying to say to you that it's not a waste of time to have a podcast about the one-state

solution, because people need to have ideas, they need to think about in different ways, they need to change their position, be attracted to change their position. In my view, there's a substrate, if you like, of what then comes next. So it remains a worthwhile... You could ask me, why would I write a book like that, you know, but that's the same reason that you have to lay before people, thoughts, ideas, ways of looking at things, maybe they haven't thought of, and that in itself carries a momentum, you know, and starts things going. But if you really want the truth, I hesitate, let's say, to say any more than what I have said in this meeting about any of this. You know why? Because the effects of October 7th are still not fully clear yet. We haven't seen them. We're seeing some. We're seeing some. But if you think about the

way that the changes that have happened in people's perceptions in the way they're conducting themselves since October 7th, it's amazing. It's amazing. I mean, you'd never thought the who-tis were going to be doing what they're doing now. Where did they come from? You know, I was quite taken, I was really very surprised when they suddenly came into the picture. And there's more of that, there's more of that. So we don't know yet. Absolutely. Yeah. The geopolitical ramifications of this are currently unfolding.

And just to end on a less, I definitely don't think that this is a waste of time. And I think political education is one of the most important things in building our movements right now. And that's exactly what we're doing. And also just to zoom out from that a little bit, last thing I'll say is a quote from the activist Chris Hedges, who said, I don't fight fascists necessarily because I think I'm going to win.

I fight fascists because they're fascists. Exactly. Excellent. Excellent. Yes. What are you? You've been listening to an upstream conversation with Gata Karmie, author of One State, the only democratic future for Palestine Israel, published by Pluto Press. Please check the show notes for links to any of the resources mentioned in this episode, including ways you can support Palestine. The cover art for this episode was originally designed by Thomas Greenwood,

and was slightly adapted by Carolyn Raider for this episode. Thank you to Faircod Al-Eard, the intermission music. Upstream The Music was composed by Robert. Upstream is a labor of love. We distribute all of our content for free and couldn't keep things going without the support of you, our listeners and fans. Please visit upstreampodcast.org forward slash support to donate. And because we're fiscally sponsored by the nonprofit independent arts and media, any donations you make from the US are tax exempt.

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