Was I In A Cult? - An Islamic Sect: “Stolen Innocence”

Episode Date: June 3, 2024

WARNING: This episode contains graphic discussions of abuse and self-harm.  Raised by a single mother in the Muslim community, Samir Ahmed was sent to a Tablighi Jamaat-focused madrasa at age 11, a religious boarding school for boys under 15. With good intentions and pressure from the community, his mother hoped this would keep her son away from drugs and knocking up girls. What transpires is one of the most harrowing stories we have ever featured on this show. But as Samir recounts his traumatic experiences with remarkable vulnerably and poise, listeners will hear the resilience and strength that define him. With his huge heart, Samir proves that your voice is one of the most powerful tools you own. Thank you again, Samir. It was an honor to share your story.  Support us and our show on Patreon  Follow us on Instagram/TikTok: @wasiinacult Have your own story and want to be on our show? Email us: [e-mail] Try VIIA Hemp! and use code INACULT! (15% off)

The views, information, or opinions expressed by the guest appearing on this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, podcast won this network or any of their respective affiliates. Warning, everyone. This episode contains discussions of sexual assault and self-harm in fairly graphic detail, so listen accordingly. Thank you. In the beginning, the fear of abuse was constant. You know, it was 24-7, but then after a while, it didn't scare me anymore because I was made to feel like I had deserved it. I had to be the perfect Muslim for them and that created its duplicity within myself.

And if I didn't do what they wanted me to do and follow exactly how they wanted us to do, that I would have left the fold of Islam and I would have burned in hell for all eternity. Welcome to Wazana Cult everyone. My name is Liz Ayakuzzi. And over here I'm Tyler Miesum. And if you happen to be joining us for the first time today on this show, we give those who are in cults or cultic environments a chance to share their story and take their power back. And we can do this because both Liz and I were. We were both in cults, this is correct. And one thing we learned and we've learned by doing this show is not all cults are created equal.

No, I mean, yes, all cults are the worst. I need to be called out, but no, they're not all created equal. And today's guest came to us with his story years ago, and when I first heard what happened to him, I was dumbfounded. I couldn't believe it, and because of that, I knew that we had to share a story. Now this story is a religious cult, but bear in mind it is a sect of a religion, a break-off from the main religion, just to reiterate, like in Christianity, not all Christians are in a cult, but there are many cults within Christianity. So that's it for the disclaimers. It's not going to be a very funny one today, guys, but it is freaking powerful.

I thought you said there were going to be no more disclaimers. Yes, you're right. I did say that. So with that, we are honored to share with you this story today. Liz did a very powerful interview with this gentleman named Samir. And Tyler lived in the interview for many long days to edit it. It's a powerful and important tale. Take out your knife. Purify me. Don't spare my life. Crucify me. I kind of want to just dive in. Sure. Let's go for it.

Okay, so how about, uh about just introduce yourself. My name is Samir Ahmed. I'm 33 years old. I was born in Chicago, but my parents split when I was just a few months old. I was raised by a single mom. My mom raised both my brother and myself, and it wasn't easy. And unfortunately Pakistan has a history, same as India, of massive misogyny. The first arranged marriage she got into, had absolutely zero say in it whatsoever. He was extremely abusive. My mom actually had to sneak my brother out in the middle of the night and hopped on a plane and came to the States.

And at that time, my mom was unmarried and she had a young child. And in the community, being a single mother is literally like the worst thing that you can be. By community, Samir is referring to the general Islamic community. It means one of two things that either nobody wants you or that you're a secret closet lesbian. My grandmother made my mom get married again and that marriage was to my father. That lasted very short time and my mom was able to get away and she was able to come out to the West Coast hoping to seek, you know, support from family. And so when she comes out here to the West,

my mom's family cut us off completely because my mom had cancer. Their leader in one of the mosques they went to in Pakistan said that my mother got breast cancer because she was a single mom. And that because she had not only left one arranged marriage, but two, after my mom had cancer, they cut us off completely. My mom was able to get back to work.

She was a hairdresser. She got a job at the JCPenney hair salon in Northridge Mall. I was raised in Encino, California, in the Valley. Yeah, we were the only Muslims for miles, honestly. So Samir stood out from his school friends. Everyone was just like, where are you from? And I was like, Chicago? And they were like, no, where are you from? And I was like, well, Pakistan. And then sometimes I would mess with them and say Agriba, which is the made to. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, thi, they, they, they, the, they, they, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, we, they, they, we, we, we, we, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, th.. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. th with them and say Agriba, which is the made-up city from

Aladdin, and they would all just be like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great, yeah, I'm, sure you had their food. So, I'm like, yeah, they've got great flying carpets. Yeah, it's great flying carpets, wonderful magical genies, amazing. Pet tigers, I would say Muslim, only because if you were from Pakistan, you were a Muslim. That's just, the two were intertwined. Well played, Samir.

Agraba, though, for real, Tyler. I mean, probably the best magic harborette I've ever taken, like, authentic AF. Yeah, I mean, you're in the real deal in Agriba. I mean, it's thia's much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, thi thi the thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their tha, tha, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. tha. tha'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a. thi. tha. thi the real deal in Agriba. I mean, it's much better than the knockoffs than a babua. Prince Ali, Abhya, Abhya, L'Aba'u. Idiots. So Samir's experience with being a Muslim at this point was more cultural. We had never really prayed. So we had none of that. So my mom started to look for mosques or mschids for us to go to.

So she would go to these different mosques and they would ask her a lot of these questions. What is she identify as? Is she Sunni or is she Shia? And my mom had no idea. And for those of us who also have no idea, help us out, Samir. 80 to 85% of the Muslim world identifies as Sunni Muslim, and that's 1.6 billion Muslims. Identify as Sunni. Yeah, significantly more will identify as Sunni than as Shi'a.

So we ended up becoming Sunni, not based off of our religious teachings on it or our differentiation of opinion on it, but rather because the people from our country that looked just like us followed that particular type of ideology. All right, now this could become an entire seminar on theology, but we're not qualified to do that, nor is that what our show is about? But within the two Sunni and Shia sects, there are a ton of other sects that fall under them. Like a downline of sorts. That's the wrong called. So just how many other sex are there?

There's an average of about I think 71 that are out there right now that are the big main ones and even all of them have their own different offshootots. And so we decided honestly just to go to the one that was most geographically close for us. So we ended up going to the receda mosque and the mosque there had a very strong Tabliji Jamath presence. So what you consider this sect a cult? What I considered Tabliji Jamath a cult? What I consider Tabliqa the cult? What I consider Tablijiamath a cult? No not at all because they call themse the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their 100%. But what's interesting is this isn't like a well-known cult. No, not at all, because they called themselves a movement, right? It really took its roots and started in 1926.

The founder, his name was Mulana Ilias. Mulana means like scholar, and he went to the pilgrimage in Mecca. Mulana Ilias, when he was there, said that he had received a dream from the Prophet. He was told that the Muslims community is going completely astray, and they're all being led to the hellfire, and he needs to start a movement to save everybody. He said in his mind that he was going to set up schools or madrasas to teach the rural kids how to be proper Muslims, right, and would mold these kids into what he saw was the perfect Muslim or what a perfect Muslim should look like, right? And what that means look like a Muslim in a lot of different countries is the way you dress,

right? Men have to have beards, the women will be fully covered. The men will have to wear like the male robes, which are incredibly comfortable, but that's a different topic. And so this ideology of creating the perfect Muslim community, right? The perfect face of a Muslim, the perfect recognition of a Muslim, is how the Bligee Jama the thamamamamamamamamamamamamamam.. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So, so. So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, to, so, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, thi, to, to, to, to, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their face of a Muslim, the perfect recognition of a Muslim is how the Bligie-Jama-Tama-Started. So he goes and he starts to preach this, right? And within 10 years he gained like 250,000 followers. So they made massive headway into the UK, into France was a big one, in general into the states, especially in the 70s, this is when they really started coming out here in the states.

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No, that's enough Comey gumming top Samir's mother had incentive to be accepted into this community We had been starting to become an active part of the missing community for about 18 months. I was just learning. to th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the th. the the the th. the the their their their their their their their their their their th. th. tom. to tom. tom. tom. tom. tom. tom. I tom. I I I I time. I I I I I I I I I tom. I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I t. t. t. t. t. t. t. I t. I t. I t. t. I t. t. I'm. t. t. t. t. t. today. today. today. te. te. te. tel. te. tel. te. tel. today. today. today. I of the Muslim community for about 18 months. I was just learning what it meant to be a Muslim, so basic understanding of things. My mom definitely felt a big pressure on her because she had just been told that she was cursed by God for having breast cancer and that her two boys are going to grow up and get into drugs and partying. And she was legitimately just trying to find a way to protect her children and the only way

that she could at that time. And so she would relate back to the community and she would try to get advice from them. And it came back down to the point of, okay, you want your kids to not do drugs and knock girls up and become gay, right? You need to force them into the religion. Because that always works, right, Tyler? Right, Liz. Force them into religion. And so they told my mom to send my brother and I to a madresa, which was a boarding school

in Sacramento. So we called the school, had some information there, and they, and th. And they, and th. And they, and th. And th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and the, and the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, you the, you, you, you, you, you, you th, you, you th, you, you, you, you tho, you tho, you, you to tho, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, tho, the tho, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the, to to thresa, which was a boarding school in Sacramento. So we called the school, had some information there, and they said that my brother was too old, that they didn't accept anybody over the age of 15. So I had just turned 11 at this point. So I remember we went for the first visit for the school, and you know, it seemed fine. Had a lot of open air, a lot of open field, and I knew even then as a child that if I didn't do this, that my mom would be looked upon as a failure. And so Samir joins the school. And this school was a Tablijah Jamath focused school.

So in this Madrasa, the way that goes is very strict dress code, Pakistani dress. You weren't allowed to bring in any kind of outside books, no toys, no music that was allowed, you weren't allowed to bring family pictures with you, nothing. I love Batman. I had these Batman toys and I wanted to bring them so badly and I wanted to bring my Pokemon cards so badly. And my mom told me I couldn't bring them so badly and I wanted to bring my Pokemon cards so badly and my mom told me I couldn't bring them but I snuck them in my bag and on the first day there they went through my bag and they found them and they told me like how atrocious I was and like made me feel super horrible. We had like these really rickety, shitty bunk beds that we were on, no mattresses on there but we had like a blanket on it. We had like a like a like a like a like a like a like their their their their their their their their their their. We their. We th. We th. We th. We th. We th. We th. We th. We th. I th. Like like like like like like like liked. Like thi. I'm liked. S. S. S. S. S. I th. I th. I was th. I was like, th. I was like, th. I was like, th. I's th. I's th. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I's th. I. I's th. I's th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm t. I'm tote. tote. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. th. th. the the there, but we had like a blanket on it. We had a pillow, and I believe there was about 26 of us in the smaller kids room.

So the bunk beds would be like touching, just practically like smush them together. You'd have to like go around the other beds and stuff like that. Like give me just real quick, wake up to sundown day in the life. We would wake up about 45 minutes before sunrise every day and we had our morning prayer that we'd have to do and then directly after that which is right as the sun was rising up we would start our first religious studies class and in that class we would spend memorizing what we would need to do. We did that for about two hours, and then we had like 45 minutes for breakfast to use the bathroom, to wash our face, brush our teeth, and then we'd go back in for another three-hour class, and then we would have a half-an-hour

break for lunch. From lunch to dinner, we would be in another class, another religious class as well. After sunset, we would go and we'd have to clean the bathrooms and vacuum and do all that for about 45 minutes to an hour. And then we would get 20 minutes for dinner. And then we had another class for about another hour, and then we had another prayer session, and then the teacher would lecture us lecture us. I am exhausted just hearing about this day. And I'm assuming the weekends were filled with soccer games and free time, right? On Fridays and Saturdays, we had people that would come in from the typically Jemoth groups,

so we would be doing things for them, like cooking for them and servicing them. I mean, they made little children massage the feet of like grown-ass people, like nasty feet of these people, and they would take off their shirts and they would make us massage them and do everything for them and pretty much dewyne on them a hand and feet. Okay, so Samir, he was enrolled in this particular boarding school in Sacramento. And by definition a school should be quote schooling, correct? Yeah, so by law we had to have school. So once a month we would show up to a charter school and have like a lesson for like two hours, and then they would just give us homework.

And then it was up to the staff to educate us after that which they never did. They just gave us the books and they're like figured out yourself. When I got to this place, I thought I was going to learn a lot more initially, but my first few months was just learning how to read and write Arabic, because we had to learn and write Arabic. to learn the Quran or memorize the Quran and it's all in Arabic so we had to learn how to do that. There is a proud tradition amongst Muslims of becoming a hafiv which means you have memorized the entire Quran front to back in Arabic, right? 500 plus pages. Millions of Muslims around the world have done it and the schools that's a primary function of theirs.

The problem is they don't really teach you what you're saying, right? Because Arabic is none of these people's original language, right? It's mostly Urdu. So you're just becoming almost like a parrot piece for them. And mistakes, well, they were not allowed. So we were given our assignments, memorize X amount of pages. As you memorize them, you would go up and you would recite them, and then you were expected 100% if you didn't want to get the absolute shit beaten out of

you. I remember one time when I was reading the Quran to the teacher and I remember making a mistake and I realized my mistake and I tried to the teacher and I remember making a mistake and I realized my mistake and I tried to correct it but before I could correct it I just I remember just like this intensive pain that came over me and I realized that I had just been struck by the teacher and then before I could even process my thought I was having my head slammed against the wall. So and then before I could even process my thought, I was having my head slammed against the wall. So they beat the living shit out of the kids there, because that's the way they taught, right?

And it was part of their fundamental ideology that you keep the stick closer than the carrot because children can be led astray very easily and we needed to be disciplined more strongly. And I remember witnessing a child, the teacher made him open his mouth and grabbed his chin and started shoving like a black PVC pipe in the kid's mouth and then just started hitting him on the face with it. He's a tiny child by an adult fucking man. And this kid trying to console him tells him that it's okay because he was told by the teacher there,

anywhere the Molana or anywhere the teacher hits you, the smoke of Hellfire won't tou. That's how fucked up that was. So that the beatings were actually a form of protection on you. These poor little kids, I could cry. No wonder they didn't let in any boy over 15. Because those guys would have fought back and beat the shit out of those teachers. So they would use everything they could. I mean I've lost count of how many broomsticks have had broken on me as a child. They would make us choose our own bamboo sticks, and if they thought the one we chose

was too thin, they would go out and grab the two largest ones and beat us till they broke. There was a few instances where they blocked us in a closet. And we were in the closet for I think a day and a half, almost two days. No food, no drink, nothing. We. We have they. We have they. We have they. We have they they they they they they they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they had their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. their their their their for I think a day and a half, almost two days. No food, no drink, nothing. We had to shit and piss ourselves in there. And then when the closet was done, they would beat us and make us clean up the mess that we left in there as children. There was a child who had made a mistake in the Quran and then on top of it had the audacity to talk back to him. So he made the kid stand at the doorway for the mosque and he made all the rest of us line up and he made us all spit on the kid. And I faked spitting on the kid because I didn't want to spit on anybody. He was my friend.

I remember faking it and then just the feeling of fear as I feel the back of my shirt being pulled up and thrown to the floor and then just beaten. And I remember him getting so tired from beating me that he had to sit down and take a break and drink some water and he made one of the other older kids beat me while he watched until he got his strength back up to come beat me again. And I can't even tell you the amount of times that I was told while I was getting beaten that if I had a father that this wouldn't have happened to me.

And that, you know, I'm a child of a whore and I'll never be anything more than a child of a whore if it wasn't for them. You know, they're going to make me something more, you know, while they're viciously fucking beating me on the floor as a child. We weren't stealing shit or things like that. It's like we would make mistakes while reciting the Quran. We're children learning something in a completely different language, and this was our punishment.

I just want to go rescue baby Samir. His story breaks my heart. And unfortunately, he couldn't really talk about what was happening. Like, we couldn't tell our parents about this. We were only a lot to make to make to make to make to to make to to to to to make to make to to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make their mistakes their mistakes their mistakes their mistakes their mistakes mistakes mistakes mistakes their mistakes mistakes mistakes mistakes their mistakes their mistakes to make to make their mistakes their mistakes their mistakes to make to make to make to make their mistakes to to make to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their mistakes their mistakes their mistakes their mistakes their mistakes their mistakes their mistakes their mistakes their mistakes their mistakes their mistakes their mistakes their mistakes toaa' mistakes toa' mistakes to to to was happening. We couldn't tell our parents about this. We were only a lot to talk to our parents for 10 minutes a week, and they were in the room every time we talked to our parents. So we kept our heads low, we took the beatings. You know, then 9-11 happened a couple weeks after all this, and, you know, change the dynamics of everything because we were thiiiiiiiiiiii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, threats, the, the, the, the, the, thr-a, the, the, the, this and, you know, changed the dynamics of everything

because we were getting bomb threats and we had a couple drive-by shootings. People just come by and shoot their guns at us. And so we had to shut down the school because it wasn't safe. And we were home for two weeks. You go to the mosque and everyone's asking you about your studies and they keep praising that you're going to become the leader the leader the leader, the leader, the leader, the leader, the leader, the the the the the the the the the the the, the, the, the, the, to, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the their, their, their, their, thiii.e, thi.e, thi.e.e.ea, thii.ea, thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiweree.ea.e.e.e.e.e. And, their, their, thi become the leader of the group. And if you tell everybody how much you hate it, nobody believes you. You told your mom what's going on or you couldn't really talk to her about it? I couldn't tell her. If I left, that means I failed.

And if I failed, that means my mom raised the kind of child that everyone there thought that she had raised. I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, tho, the, the their tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thoed thoed, thoed, tho, tho, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, their, their, their, thold, the, thea thea theaught, thea thea tolouldea tolouldea toloulde, tole, tholdea tholdea thoed, thethought that she had raised. I knew I couldn't leave. I knew I had to go back and finish. So I went back and about a month later somebody had broken onto our campus and set a fire to parts of the buildings so massive flames ended up engulfing a huge portion of our campus and then they had to shut it down completely so, you know, I ended up getting to leave, ironically due to a hate crime, which is interesting, but you know, I'll take what I can get, right? I thought I was free and I was at home for like a week and another boarding school had opened up in San Diego.

So all the kids from LA that went to the school in Sacramento where we all thought we were free, we're now all being told we're going to be going to be going to another boarding school in San Diego. Obviously I can imagine your biggest fear was being abused again, right? Honestly in the beginning the fear of abuse was constant, you know, it was 24-7, but then after a while, fucked up it sounds, but it became like a part of it, like it didn't scare me anymore because I was made to feel like I had deserved it, and you're constantly being bombarded by all the things that

make you go to hell. I had to be the perfect ideal Muslim for them and that created its duplicity within myself and if I didn't do what they wanted me to do and follow exactly how they wanted us to do that I would have left the fold of Islam and I would have burned in hell for all eternity and this was the only way that it could fix it and if I didn't fix it with them that I was a failure and that my mom was a failure and that my brother was a failure, you know, and it was it was this that I had to do it because if I didn't, everything that I experienced was for nothing.

And that is indoctrination, manipulation, and brainwashing, all working together. Okay Tyler, so the other day I got one of those fishing texts, you know, like, it says, hello, dear, where have you been? Is everything okay? You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I know, it's common. So I was like, you know what, I'm gonna actually write back to this gentle person. And I was like, no, it's not okay actually. I've just been attacked by a rumba. Yes, very nice. And then I kept replying to them so much so to the point where they asked, they asked me to stop talking to them. You probably need some friends, Liz, but I like that their harasser doesn't like to be harassed. All that's to say is this is sadly just one of the many forms of people trying to scam

you. Yeah, it's true. And it happens often. In fact, in 2023, according to the Federal Trade Commission, frauds reached over $10 billion. Billion, which is horrifying, but I believe it. And that's why we here on Was I and a Cult are thrilled to partner with ORA. ORA is an all-in-one online safety solution that helps protect and stop. What information about you and your family is being sold without your consent from these data brokers by automatically

submitting opt-out requests on your behalf. Because legally data brokers are required to remove your personal information if you ask, but of course they make it very difficult and time consuming to do so. Yes, they do, but ORA does that. And that's not all that ORA does. In fact, it also monitors identity theft, financial fraud and other online threats before they happen. See the way it works is it scans the dark web and if anything is found, you'll receive

an alert in real time. You know, hopefully they can find and remove those horrible pictures of me on the dark web. Oh, you and your Mormon underwear? Yeah, it's more just a bad hair day. Which is equally as bad. Looking. Oh, to, thi. Oh, Liz. Oh, Liz. Oh, Liz. Oh, Liz. Oh, Liz. Oh, Liz. Oh, Liz, Liz, Liz, Liz, Liz, Liz, Liz, Liz, Liz, Liz, Liz, Liz, Liz, Liz, Liz. th, Liz. th, Liz. th, Liz. th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th, th. th. th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi. thi. thea. thea. thea. tha. tha. tha. tha. thea. the tha. the the tha. is equally, you know, life-threatening to you. Equally is bad. Look, Liz, as much as you love those fishing texts, Aura will help reduce annoying robo-calls, telemarketers, and junk mail. For a limited time, ORA is offering our listeners a 14-day trial plus a check of your data to see if your personal information has been leaked online all for free when

you visit aura.com.trust. That's aura.com slash trust to sign up for a 14-day free trial and start protecting you and your loved ones. That's A-U-R-A. to co-sust. Certain terms apply, so be sure to check the site for details. And maybe you'll also find pictures of Tyler and his Mormon underwear. Just Google that too, while you're at it. They say money can't buy love, but it turns out you just have to wait till the end for the check to come. We trade uncomfortable truths for comfortable lies, imaginary solutions to real problems. I'm James Sexton, host of unlikely sources. You may know me from my books or my many interviews such a

soft white underbelly, Lex Friedman, or one of the many other places I've shared my perspective on love, life and the law. I know a divorce lawyer isn't the first person you think of advice on how to keep your relationship strong. But wisdom is found in unexpected, counterintuitive places. In sickness we see the value of health. The godfather, he can teach you more about business than an MBA. Fight club, it's actually about religion. The most valuable practical wisdom comes from unlikely sources and it's time we sit up and pay attention to what they can teach us. So if you're looking for compelling conversation, blunt talk about culture, religion, romance, and how to navigate life in the machine of modern society, I'll look forward to spending some time with you. I'm Jim Sexton.

Unliakly sources will be available May 28th. Samir moved to the new school believing that it was similar in style to the previous one, but... The facilities were garbage here. Like there was no outside the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tha the thiii. their thi. their the the thi. the machine the machine the machine thi. thi. thi. theat. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. the machine the machine the machine the machine the machine the machine the machine the machine the machine the machine the machine the machine the machine the machine the machine the machine the machine the machine the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi. thi. the thi. the. the. the.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.ean.ean.ean.ean.ean.ean.ean.ean.ean.ean. the the the the the the the the the in style to the previous one, but... The facilities were garbage here. Like, there was no outside space. It was literally just a mosque and one other, like, little hallway room. And that's where we ate, that's where we slept, and our sleeping arrangements were sleeping bags. Piled literally right next to each other and on top of each other.

Our schedule was pretty much the same as the old place. We'd wake up super early and, you know, we would just learn the Quran all day long. But this place was a lot more strict on certain things is because we were forced to become involved with the Bligigie Germans. And this facility also had an awesome leader at the helm. That's sarcasm, right? Yes, he sucks. I got it.

So this moss was run by a gentleman, say his name, but if you bleep out his name, his name was the name was B. And the L. s-f-family is very powerful in the West Coast to Bligie Jamant. Very powerful. And the guy was just an absolute prick. Like he was a massaginist. So in Islam, according to the doctrine, you can have a maximum of four wives. And he would cycle through these wives like they were just yesterday's clothes. And I'm talking wives, young, young wives. Young wives.

I'm fresh out of vomit, Tyler. You? No, no, I think I can conjure some up. Give me a second. And I remember him pulling in the office once and telling me that my mom needs to cook for him. Because obviously my mom doesn't have another man to cook for and what else is she good for? Yeah, this is what he told me.

And me, being the dumb-ass 12-year-old that I was, went back to my mom and like, I didn't want to get in trouble. And my mom was like, who the hell does he think he is? Like, what is this guy trying to do? And so my mom came and tried to complain to him, and he refused to talk to her. He called me in afterwards, and he called me pretty much a little girl. I was one of his favorites at this point, because I was articulate, and he would have me lead all these different things. My reward for doing all this was I was allowed to drink milk. I'm afraid to know what the non-favored children were drinking. There was a

period of about three and a half months where all we had for breakfast, lunch and dinner was a garbanzo beans. No seasoning, nothing. And every day he would go around and tell us that we need to tell our parents th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the all the all that the all the all the all the all the all the all thi the thi thi thi tho tho thi thi thi thi, I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the. the. the. the. the. theat theat theat theat theat theat the theat the theat the. I was the. I was the. I was the go around and tell us that we need to tell our parents that they're not paying enough money to support us here. They had plenty of money. They were eating lavishly. He's having lamb and bolmas, which is a traditional cordish dish, where it's like stuffed grape leaves, and it's amazing. And this was a gift from one

of the community members for the kids that they had made it for the children and so him and the other adults were in the back eating it so they went to go pray and I skipped out in prayer and I remember breaking into the kitchen and as I'm breaking into the kitchen they start walking in and I remember looking at them and I kick over the food the food on the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the kids. the kids. the kids. the kids. the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids kids the kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the kids the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their to to to to to to to to to their to to their their their their their their kids. their their their their their their the into the kitchen, and as I'm breaking into the kitchen, they start walking in. And I remember looking at them and I kick over the food onto the floor, and I start stepping on it, and I remember that look that I got. And that, that day is when my fate changed at that boarding school, because after that I wasn't allowed to go home.

Shortly after that incident, there was a teacher there. His name was Jammeladdin and he was really sweet at first. He was very nice and I started to look up to him a lot. Like he was like a father figure to me. And when I was learning to read the Quran and I was memorized, he started having me to recite just like him and it became ingrained in me for years and that single handily was to me the worst thing he ever did to me because it made it so for the next 20 years I couldn't forget. Because he went on to sexually abuse me for the next two years. He went on to sexually abuse me for the next two years.

And it started off where they had this thing about wrestling. They loved wrestling. Everybody loved wrestling. And not like John Sina, cool wrestling, like Greco-Roman, where this is sort of homo-erotic kind of wrestling, right? Which nothing wrong with that, but like in a group where people who hate gay people so much Like it's a little homerotic for that and They would wrestle so I remember one time he invited me into his room To do something for him to serve him I think was serving tea the first time and

You know he was joking around and he he said that we should wrestle and um He said that we should wrestle and, um, and next thing I remember is that I'm being pinned to the floor, and, uh, you know, my pants are being pulled down. And he raped me and continued to rape me constantly over the next year or so, a little over a year and a half. Um, not only did he, he would do it, some of the other individuals that would come and go through the mosque, would do it with him in the room as well.

And, you know, it, um, you know, it, um, you know, you never really understand why you, you know, and you never really understand why anybody would do that to a child to begin with. Like it was that I just became this thing for them to use, you know, and, was very busy too, so like, I remember a couple times somebody had knocked on the door a bunch and had interrupted us, interrupted us, I'm like the way that sounds, they had interrupted him raping me and, um, so he would, uh, he would begin to come from me in the night. And I remember in the room that we had one, just one light that would stay on at all times, just single bulb.

And I remember trying my best to move as close to the bulb as I could without raising suspicions, is why I was doing it. Because I figured in my mind if I was at the center of the room, there was too many kids that he would have to step to step to step to step to step to step to step to to to to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to of the room there was too many kids that he would have to step over to to get to me. I remember one time he had tried to come from me and I'd hit him with my pillow and then the next day they made us throw out all of our pillows so you weren't allowed to have pillows and we had to sleep straight on the floor. I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I there and we had there and we had there and we had to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the. the. the the. the the the tod the the the today. the. the. to to to to to to to to to to to to sleep straight on the floor. I remember, and this is a little graphic and I apologize, but I remember one time after I was raped, he was getting up and he was cleaning himself off and I was lying on the floor and I was just crying. And he starts telling me that, you know, my prayers that I was offering haven't been sincere enough,

and I need to pray deeper for protection, and that it was almost this way of him telling me that the reason why this is allowed to happen to you is because God wants this to happen to you, because you don't pray hard enough for his protection. You learn to create two different people for yourself. For me, there's the Samir before he went to boarding school and the Samir that went to boarding school. That kid that went before boarding school, he died. That kid doesn't exist because that kid was a good kid. He was the sweet kid and he didn't deserve any of the things that happened to him. So I would I would go in my mind and I would I would think about him and I would tell myself on how happy I am that he's not the one, sorry, that he's not the one that's experiencing it.

You know, that even though that was me a year earlier, that I would tell myself that, you know, I'm doing it to protect him. And that's where I would go in my mind, I would go to protect him and that's where I would go in my mind I would go to protect him you know and and and so I remember at that point I had developed like an eating disorder as well I wouldn't eat I nightmare after nightmare and and then I remember bringing it up one day with Amir, and I was like, look, this is what's happening. I was sexually assaulted. This is what's happening.

I was raped. And I remember being told that nothing happened. There was all in my gay fantasies. You know, he was like that not to say anything to anybody because they would tell me that I was gay. He asked me, he said, do you know what we do to gay people back home? We would strap you up and then throw a bunch of tires over you and then light you on fire. And I mean, I was 13 at this point and just scared the living fuck out of me, you know, as a child. And I wanted it all to stop. I. I th. I th. I to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to try my try me to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi thi. thi. thi. thi. I was the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi. thi. thi. the. te. te. te. tea. tean. tean. tean. toean. toean. toean. toean. toeananananannipea. thea. the you know, as a child. And so I kept quiet, and I wanted it all to stop.

I remember trying to kill myself. The only way that I knew how I saw in movies that they would just take pills, and I just took pills, whatever was that I could find, and I ingested them, and then I remember throw me just being told how much of a piece of shit I was and how much of a disgrace I was and you know like this is your mom's fault. And I wasn't allowed to go home. I just, I wanted to go home and I didn't give a fuck anymore about the consequences.

I just wanted to leave. So I, um, I remember that there was a kid who got to go home because he was bleeding, you know, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there was there was there was there was there was there was, there was, there was, there was, there was a there was a there was a there was a there was a there was a their their, their, their, their, their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, and their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their, their their their their their their their their their thea, theating, thrownea, theaugh, throwne., the., thea, throwne. remember that there was a kid who got to go home because he was bleeding. You know, there was blood in his stool. And so I took a sharp, sharp object that I could find. It was like a, I think it was like a shard from like one of the railings that we had and, um, I went into the bathroom and I stabbed myself in my anus. And I stabbed myself pretty deep and hard because I figured a little blood wouldn't, they wouldn't let me go home. And so it was a lot of blood and you know they called my mom and my mom took me to the hospital and I remember the doctor they're asking me about like like if I've been sexually abused, and I just said, I don't want

to talk about anything and I just, I wanted to forget, you know, because in my mind I had been told that that happened was, it was all my fault, that I did something, and if I did something that means everyone that said all the horrible, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, tho, thi, I'd thi, I'd thi, I'd thi, I'd thi, I'd thi, I'd thi, I'd thi, I'd thi, I'd thi, I'd thi, I'd thi, I'd thi, I'd thi, I'd thi, I'd thi, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I'd thi, I'd thi, I'd thi, I'd thrown, I'd thrown, thrown, too, tooooooooooooooooooo, thri, thrown, thrown, I'd, I'd, I'd thi, I that I'd be gay or a drag addict or this, they would be right. And that means everything that I put in the last four years at this point would have been for nothing. So, I got out of that school and I asked my mom if I could go somewhere closer and I used schooling as an example. And so there was another boarding school. It was a small charter school in the back of a church. So I ended up going there for a year and a half. And I was angry all the time. I was talking back.

I wouldn't give a shit about anything anymore. Like, at this point I had gone through a massive growth spurt. I was now like five, six, five, seven. I was 14, had a full grown beard. And I remember going to the charter school one day to fill out some paperwork, and I was wearing like a nice button-down shirt and some khakis, because you know that's the ideal high school dress code. My teacher was there filling out paperwork too, and he saw me and he called my mother brainless for allowing me to dress like what he called the Gophar, which means like the non-Muslims.

And my mom was like, let's pull you out, you know. But life on the outside for Samir well it it wasn't so easy I remember trying to go from community community trying to find not only a community to accept me but I was looking as a child is what I now realize is a cult you tend to feel lost without it, because in your mind they were bad, but I'm sure there's people that have the exact same structure and same organization that is good. And so for the next few years, I would go to the local mosque. I studied with one of the imams there and he was such a good-hearted, kind person.

And I really felt like I was coming back into my own and then pretty much after a few months of being there I started hearing that people were saying that I was kicked out of the boarding school because I was a gay drug addict and I wasn't allowed to lead the prayers there anymore. I lost everything that I had built in that community because of it. So he he enrolls in high school. I was so terrified of going into a normal high school. I have not interacted in any social environment

outside of Dubligi Jamath in so long that I didn't know what I was going to do. So I remember taking the bus from Encino to Norwalk to get classes and then I would go home and I would study. I mean I would spend sometimes six hours on a single assignment because I didn't understand it. I would study and I would study and I got a really good score on my SATs. And he attends Cal State University Northridge. Go Matador's. So at this point I was in college,

and I remember I had become part of a date rate prevention program that was on campus and learning about sexual assault, and having to give talks and lectures on it, I started to have a lot of this repressed trauma come back and started to truly realize what had happened to me. I then went to go seek help and when I was diagnosed with PTSD, I decided to be the change that I wanted to be and we started like a little grassroots group and we started talking about sexual assault and domestic violence and Muslim communities because thesethese guys had absolute power and they were abusing women left and right in these communities. They were preaching misogyny, they were advocating for domestic violence.

And with women, they don't have the ability to get in front of the people that need to hear it most in these communities because the communities are segregated. So I was being allowed to come up and give talks about domestic violence and about sexual assault for the first time in these communities. And I went and got my degree in psychology. I was initially planning of becoming a therapist, but I realized that I had way too much trauma that I had to figure out first. These monsters took a lot of things from Samir, but they didn't take his faith. I loved being a Muslim.

You know, I loved, I loved praying. I loved the charitable aspect of the religion, how it puts a lot of emphasis on charity and community building and being there for your neighbors and helping those that are less fortunate, and just truly doing good. When I first came out, I would still pray to put up the facade, but I remember I wouldn't be reciting when I'm supposed to recite, because I felt that I was naturally at odds because of the trauma I had experienced. But I remember fighting myself in the morning one day, like picking up a Quran. And I remember reading it out loud again, and I sound just the same like the person who abused me and so I told myself

that I am gonna stop reading out loud but I'm gonna read quietly and I'm gonna slowly try to work on it. It's kind of nice to for the first time in 20 years be free of any of that kind of influence. And Samir had basically spent most of his life away from females and wasn't all too familiar with dating. However, he was still hoping that one day he would find a wife. I had gotten a few arranged marriage offers during that time frame. Like I was like I'm not doing any of that whatsoever and I was

determined to be the first person in my family to ever get married for love. And fortunately for him, I met my wife through a comic book chat room actually and we had talked and I at that time was giving lectures on domestic violence sexual assault. And I found out that she was going to Purdue University, so I decided to kind of make a trip out there under the guise of giving a lecture. And so I ended up traveling out there and I talked to her and I met her. And I remember we're an hour into our conversation and there was just this safety that I felt with her. You know that I had never felt with anyone I'd ever interacted with and I remember just

feeling not happy but I like truly safe for the first time in a long time and that's when I realized I was like this is the woman that I want to marry. And dissolve to today. Sparkling music, sound effects. I have a seven-year-old named Nora, and I have a four-year-old named Nadia. They are the cutest, most adorable, just balls of innocence and love.

Slight update, Nora is now nine and Nadia is six. Now, perhaps because of his background, Samir had more than a passing interest in the subject of cults. I'm fascinated by the concept of cults. And then I remember my wife showing me your podcast and I remember I'm like six episodes in and I was like, dude, holy shit, I think I was in a cult. I went to work the next day and I couldn't stop thinking about it.

I had my therapist appointment that day and my therapist is very well aware of your podcasts, we've talked about it a lot but I remember telling him I was like dude I think I was in a cult and he was like yeah he's like I completely agree he was like they sounded extremely culty and that's how they operate and I was in my mind I was like well why didn't you fucking tell me sooner I could? I could have had this realization a little bit earlier. But it was crazy because I started going to this therapist just within the same time frame of starting to listen to your podcast. So it was a really interesting journey that I had been in the proper mental state to recognize that.

And that's when I began to share my story about sexual assault and how I was abused. And something that isn't isn't th you th you isn't th you isn't th you isn't th you isn't th you isn't th you th you th you th you th you thuuic thuic thuic thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thus thus thi the the, tho- tho- to tho-like tho-like the. I the. I the. I started the. I started the. I started the. I started the. I the the the the the th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I the. I thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. I thi. I thi. I the. I'm the an the an thean thean. I'm thean thean. I'm thean. thean. thean. I'm thean. I'm thean. I thean. I abused. And something that isn't talked about enough is the effect of abuse and how it plays out in life. I remember there was a, I feel like a piece of shit for this story too, but there was a, I remember he had his eye on this little kid that was seven. And he would invite him to bring him tea and to do things in his room. And I remember trying to interrupt him as much as I could and grab the kid and tell him that he was one in other places and then take the abuse for him. And I remember it got to a point where I just, I, I, I felt that because I had already let myself die, that that innocent kid had died, that I would see every time I would close my eyes when these things would happen, that

I would not let that happen to this kid. So he had an older brother, it was just the two of them. And I remember talking through their dad, because he'd come to visit and he had complained about bullying and he had threatened that if his if his sons keep getting bullied that he was going to take them out of the school and so while his dad was still there I went to the older brother and I slammed his head against the wall and I started beating the shit out of him. In my mind, I was trying to save the younger kid because if I had beaten this kid up that his parents will take

them away. And I mean it weren't. The parents took the kids out that night because of the abuse that happened, but I find out years later that the kid ended up getting hooked on, he ended up getting hooked on pain pills because of what I did to him. And he became an addict, you know, and uh, I never told anybody that story before, but, uh, I just, I wanted to save that kid so badly. Because I wish somebody wanted to save me, you know? I just wish somebody wanted to save me. And I mean, for years, it was this concept of this idea that, um,

that nobody saved me because I wasn't worth saving, you know? And that was, that was drilled into my head by them for a long time. That if God wanted to protect me, this wouldn't happen. And so for a long time I believed I wasn't worth saving and then I remember meeting my wife, kind as human being on the planet, you know, and she she loved me for who I was, broken and all, And, you know, even with all that love, I still felt that I wasn't worth it. You know, surprisingly, when I had my first kid, it made me feel even more so.

Because I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know how to be a father. I didn't know how to be a parent. I was just terrified. That somehow, in the back of my thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, the, the, the.. toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. the, the, the, that somehow in the back of my mind I'd turn out like them. You know, it was a struggle every day to remind myself that, you know, I'm Samir, I'm not them. Like, I'm here for my kids. I'm here for my wife.

Like, fuck everybody else. You know, and it's taken seven years of that. Is that stuff? it doesn't leave overnight. And sometimes it never does. You know, and you just, you gotta work on it. And I have to be someone that's willing to embrace the love and willing to understand that I deserve every ounce of it that I get from my family, you know, for my wife and my kids, I'm not home. And that's my goal. I'm

not going to let them take that from me. That's that's the greatest fuck you to them is that I'm living in life where people love me and that I'm not the person they said I was going to be. Like I want to be the person that is known for being kind to their children. That they grow, when my kids grow up, they tell positive stories about me. That they can, they can laugh about the jokes that I tell them and say things that like when people ask about their relationship my dad was one of my best friends. That's what I want. Yeah I might not have had anybody to protect me but you know fuck around and find out kind of thing like I will protect the shit out of my kids I'll protect

the shit out of my kids. I will protect the shit out of my family, you know? It's amazing. You are incredible, truly. And it's going to be very interesting to see how your story, it's going to, and people are going to be very, very moved. You're going to affect a lot of people's lives. So. It's very kind of. I'm excited. I, people are going to be very, very moved. You're going to affect a lot of people's lives. So.

It's very kind of, I'm excited to see how this story turns out. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to do this. It was very kind of you. And so, just from the bottom of my heart, thank you for all that you and Tyler do. It's incredible. to to to to to thi to to thi to to thi thi thi to and Hather do. It's incredible. For this to come full circle for us is like just as incredible for our experience as it is for your experience. Because that was the intention of the show.

Hopefully, even if there's one other person that listens to this and is able to realize that, holy crap, we were in a cult or we are in a cult, then my story would have been 100% worth it. Oh, what a story. Thank you, Samir, for being so vulnerable, open, and brave. Today, Samir and his lovely wife, Ashley are living with their two daughters in Valparaiso, Indiana. And Nora, their nine-year-old, just recently ran in a 5K for an awesome organization called Girls on the Run. Yeah, that's fun.

Girls On the Run is a 501c3 non-profit organization dedicated to creating a world where every girl knows and activates her limitless potential and is free to boldly pursue her dreams. And as for religion, he told us that he has found a mosque in Maryville, where the community is a lot more inclusive and kind. He did say that it still becomes a bit overwhelming sometimes, but it's something he is continually working on. Samir, thank you again for sharing with us. You have such an incredible sweet soul and

we're happy you found your freedom and a beautiful life. And that, folks, is our show for today. Thank you for your ears and your hearts. And your elbows. We'll be back next week with an incredible story of a woman who got caught up in a Paul dancing cult. That's right. I didn't up in a pole dancing cult. That's right, I didn't stutter a pole dancing cult. Solving patriarchy, that's the end goal. Solving patriarchy through pole dancing.

It became this thing of we're going to fix all of you and then send you out into the world as our ambassadors. And you will fix the world. And ambassadors. And you will fix the world. And did you know we're changing the world for feminism? All right, guys, real talk here. Every week we hear from numerous people like Samir, who have discovered that they were or are in cultic environments because of the stories of the guests that we've had on this show. Yeah, and we love making was I in a cult. We do, but frankly, it's incredibly time consuming

for us. It's late nights and weekends. And we hate asking for money because frankly we are terrible cult leaders, but in order to keep making this show at the level we do, we just ask you please do please please the the the the the the the the the the the th th. please please please please please please please please please please please please please the the the the th th th. th., the the thi thi thi thi thi the thi thi thi. thi thi. the thi. thia' thia' thia' thia' thia' thia' thia' thia' thia' thia' thia' thia' thia' thia' thia thi. thi. thi thi their their their their their their their the the the the the the the thi the thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. to te te te te te. tean. te. tean. te. thea' the the. the to keep making this show at the level we do, we just ask you, please do us a favor and support us in whatever way you can, support our advertisers. Yeah, and consider supporting us on Patron. We don't yet do this show full-time, but we would love to be able to. And if you're already supporting us in all the ways, we genuinely thank you and keep fighting that fight. We love it. We love hearing from you as well so please don't be afraid to send us a message.

Was I Nicolt is written hosted and produced by that girl over there. You can see her. She's sitting right there in front of the mic. That's her. That's Liz Aykuzzi. And that guy have Tyler Mason. Our sound design and edit is he's over there. No over there.. No, no, there. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th. We's th. We's th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. to to to to to thi. to to theeei. to to thei. sound design and edit is, he's over there. No, over there. Nope, look, right? I see him. There he is, he's right there. Yep, it's Rob Parra.

And our social media work horse, Shannie Payton. Do you think she'll like being called a horse? Oh, our work unicorn. And our executive producer, Mule! We Whip! Yes. Stephen Labram, but he likes it. That's the thing about Stephen. He likes the whipping.

He actually is the one that wrote, Spare of the Rods, spoil the child, that erotic poem from... Put it up! Thank you everyone. Thank you for listening. We love you, we love you, we love Vam you. And... Wrap it up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up you we love bomb you and wrap it up Who's you find?