Was I In A Cult? - BONUS: Bethany Joy Lenz on “The Big House Family”

Episode Date: November 11, 2024

In this special bonus episode, Liz sits down with actress, writer, and singer Joy Lenz (One Tree Hill) to discuss her harrowing and deeply personal journey through a Christian cult called “The Big House Family.” Having recently published her New York Times bestselling memoir, Dinner for Vampires, Joy opens up about how the group’s leader preyed on her longing for deep connection, manipulated her emotions and exerted financial control— eventually isolating her from her family and friends. From years of spiritual gaslighting to reclaiming her identity as an artist and mother, Joy’s story is one of resilience, self-discovery, and the power of reclaiming one’s voice.   Want more? Patreon members can access the full, extended interview HERE  Buy Joy’s memoir, Dinner For Vampires HERE.  ___ Find Joy (see what we did there?): @msbethanyjoylenz  Follow us on Instagram/TikTok/FB: @wasiinacult   Have your own story? Email us: [e-mail]  Please support Was I In A Cult? Through Patreon (we appreciate the hell out of you guys): https://www.patreon.com/wasiinacult   Merch is here! www.wasiinacult.com 

The views, information or opinions expressed by the guest appearing in this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, podcast one, this network or any of their respective affiliates. if that's the appropriate word. Someone in the management company office had printed checks with my business account number on it and the restaurant name on it. And they were like $70,000 every couple of weeks, like huge checks. And they were just coming right out of my account and nobody caught it.

Nobody caught it. Nobody got it. ["Spring Day in the City"] Welcome to Buzz Light in a Cult, everyone. I'm Tyler, Tyler Meesom. And I'm Liz. Liz, why'd you say your name twice? I don't know, because it sounded cool, Liz. It's just your improv genius.

That's the top of the line right there. I repeat, my name. It's as good as it gets. Well for those of you who are new to our show, first of all, welcome. On this show we give voices to the ones who deserve it most, those who had it taken away for a period of time because they were in a cult. Our guests share their stories with incredible resiliency, self-reflection, and humor. Because laughter is the best medicine.

Especially in dark times. Now, our stories are not doom and gloom and sad victims, but survivors. Sir Thrivers, if you will, which is a what? It is a someone who has survived and is now thriving. Yes, but... Oh, it's a pandemonium. It's a... No, it's a pandemonium. It's a- No, it's not.

Come on. You didn't listen to last episode. Hold on, hold on. Just give me a second. It is a poor man's portmanteau. Portmanteau. A portmanteau. Yes, survivors is a portmanteau. So we have these survivors who are here

to take their power back by sharing their story What's so funny Rob? It was my internet search history after watching the movie closer port It's not funny, it's not funny. I hope you cut that out, but we can't control it because you're our editor, so... It's actually good. It is a good attempt. You did go up to bat. You tried. I appreciate the attempt. I wanted to say it, and I should have hit it on my face better.

Sorry to take up time with that. Hey, Rob's boss, can you fire Rob for this section? And then hire him back for the rest, thank you. So now that you know our show, today is not our regular format, so if you're new, please understand that today's episode is what we call a bonus episode. So we encourage you to listen to our past episodes

to get a real feel for our show. Yeah, and be prepared to be an expert on all things CULT. And for those of you who have never heard of our guest today, Bethany Joy Lenz, who goes by Joy, and as someone who also has Beth in her name, I totally get why she doesn't go with Bethany. You have Beth in your name? Oh, Elizabeth. Elizabeth, hello. Elizabeth, yeah. You don't like it? No, I hate. Call me any other nickname. Liza, Lizbeth, Libby. My dad calls me Libby. Lizard.

You could even call me Lizard. Just don't call me Beth. Fair enough, Beth. So Joy is an actress, writer, singer, who is most famously known for her role as Haley James Scott on the cult classic, One Tree Hill. Now, this is our second actress on this show actually who was in that show as well. Lindsay McKeon, who was in my acting class turned self-help cult, was also on One Tree Hill. Weird, coincidence, wild, it's kind of crazy. Doodly doodly, it's like a portmanteau of guests.

No, it's not. No, it's not. It's really not. No. We featured Lindsay's episode in our first season titled Holly Weirder, if you want to go back and check that one out. Now, Joy has recently published a New York Times bestselling memoir about her time in a cult. It's called Dinner for Vampires.

And she sat down with me to discuss the book and her time in a small Christian cult named The Big House Family. So today is not our normal format, but it's a compelling interview nonetheless. So I'm mostly going to sit this one out, maybe take a gummy, a little via gummy, maybe watch the clouds, maybe take a nap.

I don't know. I don't know what I'm going to do. You're probably going to work. Just, you're going to work. That's probably what I will do. I will work. I should do that. So I did take this interview that Liz did.

It was quite long and I cut it down But we will have the extended interview available on patreon for our members If you are a patreon member also, thanks to our patreon members Thank you, and you'll be able to find the interview there and for now Enjoy the chat between Liz and joy and you know what? I'm just gonna chime in at the end You may see your way out. I can help. I can listen or set the levels. Thank you. There's I got a I got some facts. You don't know when to leave do you Tyler? You don't know when to leave. Rob you can just cut it off here. No I wouldn't do

that. I'm so happy you're here. Thank you. I've been following your story since you sort of first started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started.

I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started.

I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following your story since you started. I've been following're here. Thank you. I've been following your story since you sort of first came out about it. Yeah. And now your book is out. Congratulations.

Thank you so much. It feels great. What was that like? It's surreal. I'm standing in Penn Station in Madison Square Garden and seeing a billboard of my book up on the Amazon board. I don't know where to put this in my body. Yeah. This is so much bigger than anything I ever imagined. So your story is really important to just

have in the cult space because it really shows how anybody can get manipulated into a cult. Yeah. So if you don't mind, can we go into your story a little bit? Sure, let's do it. Since we're here. So the book is called Dinner for Vampires. When I sat down to write, it seemed like it made the most sense

to set up my childhood as a foundation. My particular blind spot was a need for family. Like I really just wanted to be a part of a family that was loud and busy. And there was something in me that just as an only child with two parents who were both working and both having a very difficult time in their relationship, it did feel like I was just missing that sense of community. And we moved a lot. And we did grow up in church, but again, moving so much, there was not one particular church. I mean, I was seven years old

when I actually made the decision. I wanna have a relationship with Jesus. I want that experience of connecting with the God of the universe. What I do remember was being acutely aware of my flawed humanity and not in a way that was like, I'm bad. It was like a very mature understanding of my need for help existentially. And my faith became very real to me. My relationship with God became very real to me at that young age.

So you moved around a lot in Texas? Yeah, in Texas we moved around a lot. And then in New Jersey, we moved there when I was 12, and that's where we really settled down. But Jersey was a tough transition from being a sweet Texas, you know, in that part of Dallas, everything revolves around church and church culture and Christian culture. And then to get up to Jersey Jersey and these girls were not nice. Even if they were nice to my face behind my back in the south, at least there was this

like in a room that everybody was being cordial. No, Jersey was very different and I had to learn to adapt pretty quickly, but also felt really isolated and was just longing for friendship. How did you find your church friends? My parents just picked a church and we went there. It was non-denominational. So it was that time in the 90s when the non-denominational mega church model had really blown up. Yeah, there was this big revival in the 70s, Jesus Revolution.

That's what my parents came out of, all of the hippies who were like, we love Jesus. And people rebelling against the Mad Men era, rebelling against all of the rules and the strictness and the suits and the buttoned up Sunday school. They were like, we want a God that's alive and not just, you know, telling us all the prescriptive things we need to do. So they came out of that. And then the 80s hit, and it's all corporate America. And now you have kids, and you have to make money,

and you need a real job. You can't just be a hippie anymore. It sounds like you had to be an adult very young. Yeah, I didn't learn to play in my real life. I was a ball of energy, but I didn't have an outlet for it. I didn't play sports. My parents were busy and distracted. There was a lot of things going on in their life,

and there just wasn't a lot of play. I found most of my play on stage, and that became the safe zone for me. So when the camera was on, or the lights turned on the stage and the curtain went up, I really became alive in a very new way because I didn't have a space in my personal life to do that. My mom when she wasn't working, she was taking me to auditions and taking me to lessons and dance lessons and probably four times a week I

had voice lessons for eight years from the director of the Brooklyn College of Opera but they just believed in me and also my grandfather had been on Broadway and my grandmother had just done every regional theater production under the sun. So they supported me in the ways that they knew how. My acting career was really taking off when I was in high school. I mean, I got Stephen King's Thinner. We shot in Maine. I was 14 years old.

It was my first big studio movie. And I did a lot of pilots at that time. I was the comedy girl. And especially when I moved to LA after I turned 18, I was always the girl doing the comedy pilots or the comedy guest spots. And then I got Wintry Hill. And once it was over, I couldn't get arrested for comedy for my life. They were like, oh, you were on a serious teen drama.

But I'm funny. I used to be funny. Talk about like moving out and New York. I loved it. about moving out in New York. I loved it. I loved living in New York. We were on 88th and Amsterdam. We were on Christopher and Seventh. I did a show at the Duplex called Foxy Ladies Love Boogie 70s Explosion.

It was so fun. The Duplex is a big drag bar for those of you out there who don't know. We also, I found a church there. I found a small church community. It was non-denominational. This was a sweet South African couple who had come to New York and just wanted to start a ministry. I also had started going to Redeemer Press, which was Dr. Tim Keller's church, who is

an incredible theologian. He's like the modern day C.S. Lewis. It wasn't just like the Bible says it, and so we believe it. He was like, let's talk about that. Let's really look at the context. And I loved it. I felt like I was going to college because I never went to college. So I was like, oh, great. I'm finally getting a little cerebral activity here. Well, I was 17 when I first booked a recurring role on Guiding Light. And then they called me a year later when one of their other actors was leaving and they wanted to keep the character alive. And then they called me a year later when one of their other actors was leaving and they wanted to keep the character alive.

And so there was that day when the role of Michelle Bauer will now be played by Joy Lenz. And then that's what I did for two years. So why did that end after two years? The contract was up. And they asked me if I wanted to renew, and I didn't. I was afraid of getting stuck as an actor on a soap opera. I lived in New York for another year after that, and I worked really hard.

I had a lot of auditions. I got really close on a lot of things, a lot of studio movies. And then I ran out of money and was like, I'll go to LA. And it went really well for the first six months to a year out there. I was the real actor from New York. Out here, everybody wanted to be a star. I was like, I really just want to do theater, but I'll come play with you in LA for a little while. And they loved it. It was like, oh, somebody that doesn't want us?

Great, give her a job. Don't neg me. Yeah, yeah. But it was really hard to leave the church that I had found in New York because I've built these great relationships. It felt like good community. And I left New York and came here and I was really lonely. And I thought, I'll just find new people. And it was a lot harder to do that in LA.

When you're in a city like Chicago or New York or Philly or someplace where people are very direct, you know where you stand with people all the time. Out here, everyone's bullshitting you all the time. Yeah, and when you're an actor, forget it. You can't trust anybody. No. Everybody's blowing smoke up your ass or they're trying to get something from you and manipulating you. Yeah, it's really tough.

But it's so tough for women too. So tough for women. So tough for women. You don't know who to trust. You know what the angle is. The amount of lunches or meetings I've had with studio executives or people out of the office where it's like, do you have time to grab a quick drink before dinner or whatever,

and you leave a meeting like that going, was that a date? Was that, why do I feel uncomfortable? That he didn't do anything inappropriate or say anything inappropriate, but we didn't talk much about work but maybe he's just trying to get to know if I'm a nice person to work with. Yeah your intuition knows. Yeah but when you're 20 you don't know. Yeah I don't know if it's gotten better or if it's just gotten more exposed and people have to be sneakier about it. Yeah. Because

that manipulative narcissistic mindset will find a way. You're up like and getting like screen test for when you were getting pilots like before one tree hill. Oh yeah I was booking things all the time and I were like oh my god I got it and then it's gonna go and it doesn't go. Oh yeah that happened all the time too and you go shoot the pilot it doesn't get picked up or you get the job and it falls apart. There was a huge, biggest budget the WB, I think, was ever putting into a show. It was called the Dragon Riders of Pern. And it was like a Game of Thrones for a CW crowd. And this was back in 1998. They flew me out for the screen test. And my agent,

Nancy called me and said, you got the part. And I was like, oh my god, I'm going to be the lead on a Dragon Rider show. This is crazy. And she goes, wait. They lost their funding. It's not going to happen.

But you need to know, you got the part. And we just move on to the next thing. So how do you deal with that emotionally? What was your outlet for that? I didn't have a safe place. I didn't feel comfortable crying in front of my parents. I never wanted to look weak to anybody. So I didn't have friends that I would go cry to because crying to me was weakness.

Being emotional was disdainful. I don't think I cried in front of anybody until I was like 19. It's so interesting because your book is so vulnerable. So you obviously had a huge shift. Yeah, I did. And you know what really unlocked that for me? Being in a cult. We'll be right back.

Thanks for that cliffhanger. Yep. All right. Have you heard about senolytics yet? It sounds all high tech, but let me tell you, it's actually about making us feel younger by dealing with something called sentient cells. Turns out these cells are, well, kind of useless. Yeah, they're nicknamed zombie cells because they're old, worn out, and don't do much

besides slow us down. And they build up as we get older, making us feel those aches and sluggish energy. That's why we started using Qualia Centilitic. Now when I heard it could help make me feel younger in just a few months, I was skeptical. But honestly, I've noticed a shift in just a couple months. I've got more energy and just fewer of those little nagging aches. You know, the best part is you only take it two days a month. That's it. It's like a two-day reset to get rid of those zombie cells

and let the rest of your cells thrive. Its formula was created by top scientists, MDs and NDs. And since taking it, I've actually started to feel more energized, productive and I mean it just kind of makes me feel smoother. Can you even get any smoother Tyler? You know, there's always room for smooth. So reset aging at the cellular level. Try Qualia Centilitic.

Go to qualialife.com slash cult for up to 50% off and use code cult at checkout for an additional 15% off. For your convenience, Qualia Centalitic is also available at select GNC locations near you. That's q-u-a-l-i-a-life.com slash cult for an extra 15% off your purchase. And a big thanks to Qualia for sponsoring today's episode. Thanks Qualia. Thank you.

We don't like those zombie sales. All right, so we have sung the praises of the Litter-Robot many times on our show. And seriously guys, if you haven't upgraded yet, what are you waiting for? We love our cats, but the litter box not so much. Thankfully, Litter-Robot takes care of all the dirty work. Literally. It's like having an AI butler but just for your cat. It has completely changed my

life. That's not an overstatement. No more bending over and scooping because this thing cleans itself after every use. Plus, it's smart enough to send a notification to your phone when it's time to empty. It's pure genius, guys. And it would actually be a reason to get a cat, in my opinion. And get this, it even gives insight into your cat's health. We've totally fallen for this gadget,

and if you've got a cat, trust us. As your cult leaders, it will completely change your life. We've even had someone write us recently, not to sing our praises, but to go on about how obsessed she is about her litter robot. And as a special holiday offer, Whisker is offering up to $100 off Litter Robot Bundles. And as a special offer to just our listeners, you can get an extra $50 off when you go to StopScooping.com slash Colt. It's a gift for your cat, but mostly it's a gift for you.

Everybody deserves their own gift around the holidays, right? Give yourself a gift. Look, this is Litter-Robot's best offer ever. We talked to them, we begged them. Up to $100 off Litter-Robot bundles and an additional 50 bucks off when you go to StopScoing.com slash Colt. Stop scooping.com slash Colt.

Tell us about the girl that we meet that introduces us to this group. She was my roommate at the time, a friend of a friend. She was on a show, a new and actress friend of mine in New York and connected us and said, hey, I think you guys really like each other. You're both Christian. You're both young actresses. It was great. She was really sweet.

She was 10 years older than me. And I felt like I looked up to her like a big sister. She was going through a harder time in her career as an actor and she invited me to live with her and we had a great time for a while. She really invited me at a very opportune moment. And it wasn't a manipulative thing. I think she was just being a good friend.

Like, I think you just need some friends. Like come hang out at Bible study with me. It was in the Valley. Uh, it was just a group of young artists. I think the first time I went there was probably 12 to 15 people. It was working professionals and some of them were fairly well known. The idea was to keep it private and small. Like that's got to be really hard for somebody who's well known to be able to just go to church without having everybody staring at

them. And it felt great. And it wasn't all revolving around being in the Bible, like having our nose in the Bible. That was the foundation because we understood that there was a similarity in how we related to God. But Saturday nights were the focus on the spiritual meditation and discussion. And then during the week, we were just living our life and trying to encourage each other. These are the people that welcomed me and would invite me. Oh, you actually like me? They just became my best friends. And what do you do with your best friends? You hang out with them every day that you can.

It felt pretty healthy. It felt like exactly what I had experienced in many of the other non-denominational churches I'd been to. But it wasn't this obsessive. It wasn't what it turned into. And then as Les came in, who was a pastor from another state. Les is the cult leader.

Couldn't help yourself, Tyler, huh? You just had to come in here and mansplain some shit, didn't you? Just wanted to make sure that people knew that Les is the cult leader. So if there's any other... We got it. Just so you know, Les is the cult leader. We are good. We got it.

First time. I have some nice facts and stats about the band ELO. Don't actually need them. We're good. Been getting into ELO lately, if anyone's- Nobody cares. We're good. And he came to visit and just, I felt a little uneasy. I met his family, three boys, and the dad and the wife. Three boys.

Yeah, Les and Marty. My body reacted immediately. I didn't like them immediately. Being an empath, being somebody who didn't want to be judgmental was like condemning myself already for having an emotional reaction to strangers. So my brain just was like, that's what it is. I'm being judgmental because I'm in Hollywood and surrounded by all these pretty people. So the two brothers in my book, Harker and Abe, Harker was an actor in the entertainment industry and their parents, Pam and Ed, had a home in Idaho

where the boys grew up. And they also had a home in the Valley for work purposes when Harker was working, I was an actor. So Pam and Ed knew less from being up in the Pacific Northwest and invited him down to the Bible study to come speak because he was currently without a church. And he came to visit and realized

that this was a group of young professionals who were all making Hollywood money and he could probably do something with it. How did the control take over? It was a slow burn. Anyone walking into an environment where they are about to pull a long con has to assess who's there, who could be a threat to the con. That was the first move, was throw something out and let's see who bites and who objects.

And so the first thing that I remember him throwing out was this concept of speaking truth over someone. I read about it in the book with a conversation that comes up about my friend Emily who said, my brother's always just really negative. And no matter what you say, he always turns it down. And you know what, I just, I'm so sick of it. I just, I'm gonna tell him. And Les is going, let's see what the Bible says about this.

So he takes a verse in the Bible out of context and says, so what we should be doing is quote unquote, speaking the truth. So instead of doing what we should be doing is, quote unquote, speaking the truth. So instead of doing what we now know would be the healthy thing to do and saying, hey, I need to talk to you about something. You complain a lot and I love you,

but it's making it really hard to spend time with you. What's going on in your life? Instead of that, what you would say according to Les would be, hey, you are such a positive person. You are such a force of positivity and generosity in this world, and I love being around you. I just want you to know that. Lovely thing to say to someone.

Right. So there were people in that environment who went, but isn't that just passive aggressive? And isn't that just lying to somebody? Like, why wouldn't you just tell them the truth? And those are the people that eventually he found a way to kind of weed them out. Kick them out or? It wasn't an official kick out.

It was much more of, that's when the triangulation starts and he pulls you aside and he's like, you know, I don't want to talk about it a lot. I don't want to give any details, but so-and-so confided in me about this thing. And I just, I know you've struggled with your own issues with your mother. And I really think that you could have some spiritual authority in praying for her. You're so uncomfortable, right?

You're like itchy. I'm just like, ugh. Like that's so manipulative. Yeah, it is. But as I said, it's a long con. Yeah, of course. So he had to weed out who was worth having, who was going to be loyal, who would believe the bait. So once he started really weeding everybody out, and officially, I think

once the last person was weeded out, he really locked down on now he could really start barreling forward with the manipulation and gaining control. What was the doctrine of this group? There was none. So, but how did it differ from traditional Christianity? Or what did he make unique? There was no doctrine. Oh, I see what you're saying.

That's how. It's some guy at the top saying whatever he wants and taking things out of context. And we were too young and inexperienced to know the difference. And we looked to him as an older mentor, a pastor from a real church who had gone to seminary, who told me that he pastored with Tim Keller, who was the man that like was a hero of faith and reason. And of course, later I find out they didn't pastor together. And then he knew that I had been to Redeemer in New York, and he used that card. and it immediately made me trust him. Right. Because I was like, if Keller vouches for you, my goodness, you must be totally solid.

And who at 20 years old has the audacity to look at an older minister who's got all this life experience and go, could you show me your credentials, please? You don't do that. No. You just trust people. Correct. Just from a baseline description of him, it was not at all what I would have expected from a con artist or a narcissist. You know, I had seen actually as an actor because if you're a good actor, you're a professional

bullshit detector. And when people are bullshitting you, you go, no, that's bullshit. You're being weird. Right. I mean, I don't want to use a positive word like superpower, but I guess his cover, his covers and his ability that he had honed is this ability to be very humble, very self-effacing. It was an understated charisma that was like,

oh gosh, what, you think I'm charismatic? Oh my God, me? And it's endearing, it was endearing. I love those kind of people. I feel like I'm that way. I'm always calling myself an idiot and being like, oh God, of course I did that. And you know, like, oh, whatever. I'm playful. I try not to take myself too seriously because people who take themselves seriously are vain and annoy me.

Right. So I would have spotted it. Even at 20, I would have spotted it. Hey, everyone. fall is here. And with our very packed schedules, we here at Wasana Cult are very excited to be sponsored by Green Chef, the number one meal kit for clean eating, which is my favorite way to eat.

And Green Chef makes it so easy to eat clean. They send high quality ingredients like organic fresh produce, responsibly sourced proteins, and even pre-made sauces. You can make delicious, wholesome meals without the hassle. I love to cook and Green Chef has honestly saved me so much time. I don't have to run to the store last minute for that one random forgotten ingredient. Screw you, sour cream!

Everything is pre-measured and prepped. My favorite thing is that Green Chef has options for every lifestyle. For instance, gluten-free, quick and easy, they even have plant-based meals. I'm currently trying their Mediterranean recipes and I gotta say I loved every single meal so far. And let's talk about the holiday flavors. Oh let's. You can have a clean, feel-good Thanksgiving with all the fixin's from Green Chef.

Not a bad idea, because Thanksgiving cooking can be a pain in the old butt. So go to greenchef.com slash wasi50 and use code wasi50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next two months. That's code wasi50 at greenchef.com slash wasi50 to get 50% off your first box, plus 20% off your next two months. Green Chef, the number one meal kit for eating well. Today's episode is sponsored by Squarespace.

Squarespace is the all-in-one platform where we, yes, even us, can create a website. So whether you guys want to start a cult, I mean business, online portfolio, or a blog about Tyler's fashion sense, Squarespace has you covered. Yeah, and you know what they've got? They've got something called design intelligence. Something you don't got. Yeah, but save that for the blog. Basically, this is like your personal website, Coach, right? You're using AI to help you build a unique, gorgeous site that screams you.

You! Plus, with Squarespace Payments, you can sell anything directly from your site. We use Squarespace to build our website, and we were very pleased with how easy it was. At least Tyler was because he did it. Yeah, he did it. And one of my favorite features, integrated social media. So you can connect your socials. You can share your cult, I mean business, with the world and even link to Instagram to sell products instantly.

So head over to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash in a cult for 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash in a cult. Go make a website that would make even a cult leader jealous. Hey Les, how's it going without me? How's it going? Well, it was going completely fine until you just came back. Why are you here? Don't you have things to be doing?

Just checking in, making sure all is going well, that's all. Just checking in. I am here for you, Liz, Beth, and if you need me, I'm here. I don't. But if you do me, I'm here. I don't. But if you do. But I don't. But just in case, you might. But I won't.

I'll let you do your thing then. Without me, that's fine. I mean, I'm fine with it. I'm fine. I got things to do. I'm fine. Editor's note, Tyler's not fine, but I have some ELO records we'll put on.

Should keep them occupied for the next half an hour. All right, we'll get back to Joy now. And so what about your outside world? How did that morph? I had plenty of friends that were other actors that, I mean, I had started to see the separation between the two, particularly at my 21st birthday party, which I write about in my book, where I get all these people in the same room and I'm seeing my Bible study group and I'm seeing all my friends from the industry and going, this is so weird. But I wasn't thinking too hard about it. I was 21. I was just like, oh, I'm in LA.

I'm making friends. This is all great. Then I got One Tree Hill. And my time became more limited. And I just was not able to maintain deep friendships with the people I had begun in my quote unquote secular world to foster those relationships and maintain the relationships with the people in the group who I was deeply connected to at that point.

And how deep into the group were you when you booked the show? A year. Okay. So you were pretty committed. Fully. When did you start to feel some things weird going on? I went through the process of getting the show. He flew out several members of the family to come hang out with me and the cast within the first few months of filming, which I'm sure was his way of just keeping tabs on me.

And then there was friction with my parents and my family because they were like, what's going on with Joy? Why is she more isolated? Why doesn't she come visit anymore? What's going on? At that point, my identity had been constructed around the approval of these people in Idaho and in LA, because it was still back and forth at the time. I couldn't risk recognizing how odd that was. Like when someone repeats that back to you and you're

like, you don't understand. You don't have a relationship with God the way that I do. You're living in the world as a secular person and you just don't get it. And that's okay. And so the more that isolation kicked in, that's when I think it really started to amp up for Les too. And that's when he knew he could stop the love bombing and start the devaluation phase. And to answer your question, that phase was when things started to feel like something's off. And about how far into like a couple years?

Yeah, it was about two years. Maybe it was three years after that point. Three years of love bombing. And you were in it eight more years after that. Yeah. It's not that there was never any negative things to be said, but also I wasn't the only person. Like he got the ball rolling with me and was like, okay, Joy's good. She's set. I'll check in with her every once in a while. I got 15 other people that I have to monitor and maneuver and manipulate and triangulate. And so maybe it wasn't patience as much as he was just occupied. And it just took that long because other people were experiencing a love bomb cycle

and then a devaluation cycle much more quickly. And he knew I was so independent, I had always been making my own money, I was transient, I was used to just becoming close with people and then leaving because that's the nature of the business. You get close with your castmates, then the job's over and you move on to the next job.

So he knew that I probably could pick up and pack out easily if things started to feel funky. I think he knew that he had to string it out for me the longest. And so the cult ended up moving to Idaho full-time. Yeah all the members eventually went up there. And so for you did that became your home away from home? Yes. I just didn't even go back to LA anymore. In fact, Les said, why don't I just make it easy on you? My son and I drive to LA to pack up your apartment and just pay your last month's rent and we'll move you up here. You're up here in Idaho all the time anyway.

Just stop paying rent in LA. And the name of the group, how did it get its name? The Big House Family. That's just a nickname for the big house that everybody lived in. It was a pristine, very presidential sort of estate home. There was no like actual church organization. It just was a group of people. I lived with two other girls in the downstairs room. Les and his boys lived upstairs and there was a couple, they lived downstairs in the basement. lived upstairs and there was a couple, they lived downstairs in the basement. And that was the big house.

So we just started referring to ourselves as the big house family. How did the isolation take over your mind? Yeah, it was lots of really loving conversations. I'd get up to Idaho and wake up in the morning and kind of stumble out of my bedroom downstairs that I shared with two other girls. I'd stumble out of my room, I'd have coffee and he'd be down there reading his Bible and going through sermon notes or whatever. And how you doing baby?

Like, what's going on? How's work been? How's your heart? What are you feeling? And I just, I craved that. I felt fulfilled in a new way, in a place that I had a need by these loving, friendly, intimate conversations with a father figure who was investing in me. And I felt so seen. And then he would say one thing, because that's all it would take. One little

thing. And I'm so glad you're friends with those people. They just sound like really great people. We should get them up here. We got to get them to stop being Catholic. They got to come up here and really experience the Holy Spirit. It's just one little thing. And you're like, huh, yeah, that would be fun. I would love if they came up here. But now I'm thinking, oh yeah, they're Catholic. They're not as advanced spiritually as us. So I guess I should be aware when I'm talking to them that they don't fully understand things the way that I do. And you have enough of those comments dropped in

in different places for different people and different reasons. And all of a sudden, you're alone and you can only trust the person that you're talking to that's telling you all these things. Something so subtle that happens through that when you're in an abusive relationship or an abusive environment, toxic environment, when you start examining your language before it comes out, everything you say because you're calculating who's listening, what they can handle, you are learning how to be manipulative. He's teaching us how to do it to ourselves.

And because we do it to ourselves, we now do that to other people. And everything is thought out and planned. And that was really hard to break. When I left the group, I would catch myself doing it. It was exhausting. And that was never from a place of intentional manipulation or like trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes or whatever. But it was fear-based. Like I was so afraid of being misunderstood. I guess my body instinctually just knew how to manipulate, how to say certain things to certain people

in certain ways that I wouldn't get misunderstood. And then at some point I realized I'm not known, I'm not seen, I'm not letting people know and see me, I'm not being vulnerable, I'm living in fear that I'm gonna be misunderstood and using these weird tools that I learned from this stupid guy, I have to start being real and vulnerable and that was hard. It was a really hard thing to do.

This message is sponsored by Greenlight. As parents, it's important that we pass on to our children some of the things we have learned. Like me, I'm teaching my son that it's acceptable to use the phrase, what you talking about, Willis? I was thinking more about financial literacy. You know, the fact is kids won't really know how to manage their money until they're actually

in charge of it. And that is why we use Greenlight. Greenlight is a debit card and money app made for families. Parents can send money to their kids and keep an eye on kids spending and saving while kids and teens build money, confidence, and lifelong financial literacy skills. The Greenlight app also includes a chores feature where you can set up one-time or reoccurring

chores, customize to your family's needs, and reward kids with allowance for a job well done. So instead of pleading with your child to put their toys away, you can just make it part of their list of chores to mark off. What you talking about, Liz? I know, it's brilliant actually. Millions of parents and kids are learning about money on Greenlight.

It's the easy convenient way for parents to raise financially smart kids and families to navigate life together. Sign up for Greenlight today at greenlight.com slash cult. That's greenlight.com slash cult to try Greenlight today. Greenlight.com slash cult. For years, Tim Ballard has been championed as a modern day superhero.

The first time I saw one of the kids from the video, and it like changed my life. He was the face of Operation Underground Railroad, a movement that inspired hope around the world by rescuing children from human traffickers. However, Ballard's crusade to save innocent lives has always hidden a darker secret. Well, I think he's a pathological liar.

Beneath the accolades and the applause, a dark storm has been brewing. I mean, I can't find a time that he's told the truth about anything. Shocking allegations of sexual misconduct have surfaced, casting a shadow over his once unquestioned reputation. I am host Sarah James McLaughlin, and in this new season of The Opportunist, we explore the rise and the fall of Tim Ballard. Join us this October for Tim Ballard Unmasking a Hero.

Subscribe to a new season of The Opportunist now, wherever you get your podcasts. Uh. Uh. Uh. Uh. Tyler, are you back and are you now crying? No.

No. It sounds like you're crying. No. No. Rob, can you please do something about this? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got this. All right, Tyler, here's what we're going to do. I got some Viagummies. We're going to go in the backyard.

We're going to look up at the clouds. We're going to put on Mr. Blue Sky. Okay, that's a good song. Jesus, get your shit together, man. Rob, can we go back to the interview? Yeah, let me just hit go back to the interview? Yeah, let me just hit the back to the interview button. ["The Last Supper"]

["The Last Supper"] ["The Last Supper"] There's always spiritual, emotional, financial abuse in cults, sometimes physical abuse. What was sort of the biggest one in your group, or for you specifically? The mental anguish of being constantly pulled on this seesaw of you're amazing, you're terrible.

You're amazing, you're terrible. That's where I write about these basement meetings that we had ad nauseam. There was a meeting about fucking everything. Like literally the point of the meeting might've been how to fold a napkin at the restaurant and you'd be there for an hour with Les and Pam talking to you about your identity. Why your inability to remember how to fold these napkins properly is a mental block that you're rebelling. What is going on

in you that you're so consistently rebelling because we love you and we're not saying you're bad, but like we recognize that we've asked you to do this four times and you keep forgetting. So these were adults talking to other adults this way. And because we came up in it when we were 20, by the time we were 25, 27, we still were just used to this mindset of being told there's something wrong with us. And we need to be shaped and we need to be mentored and matured into this better version of ourselves. You were a real asset. Were you tithing or was there a payment plan? Yeah, I was called to tithe. It would go to the ministry.

Les had a ministry with a name and all that. Of course, I didn't find out till later. It wasn't registered as a 501C3, so that was fun. But we, yeah, we all tithed 10%. Then it was Gretchen needs a job. So she's going to be your personal assistant. So here's what you should pay her. And she's going to live with you because your husband can't

live with you because you're too exhausting. And we're going to run a restaurant out here instead. And that'll be something that you and your husband can work on as a project, because he needs a job, because he doesn't have one. So please buy him a restaurant so he can have a job. But yeah, I don't know in total how much I gave to the ministry, quote unquote, ministry. The restaurant was several hundred thousand dollars. There was a house for several hundred thousand dollars that I bought. There was the hotel venture that I put several hundred thousand dollars. There was a house for several hundred thousand dollars that I bought. There was the hotel venture that I put several hundred thousand

into, but it was a lot. It was just a nonstop steady flow. I mean, it sounds so absurd, but like when you're that far in and when money is such a tempestuous topic at all times, it was just, what are you spending the money on, Joy? Why did you go shopping at Anthropologie and spend $300? And I'm going, I'm making a lot of money, like tens of thousands of dollars every episode. It's okay.

And he, yeah, there was so much arguing about money constantly looking at receipts, checking on things. How much did you spend for this? This is what the restaurant needs, and we have to make sure we're saving for whatever. That I finally just realized, constantly looking at receipts, checking on things. How much did you spend for this? This is what the restaurant needs, and we have to make sure we're saving for whatever. That I finally just gave control up to my ex. I was like, you take care of the money, it's fine, whatever.

Just, you manage it. And how much did you end up giving to the call? There was two million that was embezzled from me, if that's the appropriate word. Someone in the management company office had printed checks with my business account number on it and the restaurant name on it and they were like $70,000 every couple of weeks, like huge checks and they were just coming right out of my account and

nobody caught it. Nobody got it. And leaving, there was an aha moment for you. What was that aha moment? I think just becoming a mother. It really just reinvigorated my instinct, my gut instinct, my being able to recognize that I have a valuable opinion, that I can sense things, and that I'm not just all a mess. And so maybe it's not all me.

At the same time, I had become a mother and was getting more in touch with my gut and the show was ending and my marriage had been bad for so long. Like there were just so many perfectly placed things that were ready to just show me the truth, show me the door. And when do you feel like you finally reclaimed yourself?

I think the day I left, I did. The day that I left and packed up and came to LA and was like, I'm doing this, I'm out. That was the first staking the claim. And then the next 10 years of a spiritual journey of finding out who I know God really to be and what is my relationship to that spirit out there and what do I call you? So what's your relationship to God today? It's authentic. It's the most authentic relationship I've ever had with God. I feel like I'm still growing. I'm still learning. But it's much more the relationship I had when I was seven in a way, like simple, clear. There's not a lot of directives and religious checklists and things that I have

to live by. I feel like I'm loved, I'm seen, I'm known, and I live out of the gratitude of that. And the more solid I get in that, the more free I feel. What's next? Are you going to keep writing? I'm going to keep writing. I can't wait to keep writing. I'd love to keep acting too. I feel a lot of fulfillment from writing. I just, I love it. I love nothing more. And I look forward to being able to explore all kinds of stories.

I want to write fiction. That's always what I've really wanted to write. So you write your memoir like a fiction. Good. So beautiful. Thank you so much for having me today. This was great. You're amazing.

I really enjoyed this. Thank you for your time. You're so welcome. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed it. Thanks. And her You're amazing. I really enjoyed this. Thank you for your time. You're so welcome. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed it. Thanks. And her book is amazing. Dinner for vampires. It's out now.

Yeah. Tell us what, plug whatever you want to plug. No, that's it. That's it. Go get it now. Go get it now guys. It's awesome. A link to Joy's book is in our show notes. So you can go there to purchase it.

And in it, of course, you will get all the details of her cult experience. And if you go the audio route, she actually reads the book and she does great voices and she sings, so it's quite entertaining as well. Makes a great holiday gift. Oh, Tyler is back. And you got your shit together. It's great to have you back, Tyler. Yeah, my proverbial shit is together. And in my time away, you know, I had some deep reflections on life's purpose, Liz. That's it? And?

No, I mean, I'll get back to you on that. But I realized that sometimes it's OK to sit back and let others lead. I think you're taking this much harder than it needs to be. Don't worry guys, next week we'll be back to our regular scheduled programming. Oh, thank God. Thank God I get to talk. With an unbelievable story of a woman's time

in the BDSM kink scene in England. Yes. Move over 50 shades of grey. We got 51 of them. No. But yeah, you'll have people doing stuff around you. You'll have people doing stuff off in the rooms. It can be very performative.

As I said, there's a lot of attention seeking. I find it's struggling to describe it because the reason is it's boring now. It's somebody who's tied to a cross is being spanked or if it's a club where sex is happening, they'll be tied up and being fucked or something or there'll be some weird scene that's going on and it does feel transgressive and it does feel exciting and it does feel thrilling. And then once you've been in it for a while, you're just like, oh, well, there's fucking Kevin and Stacey showing off again. Oh, they're so noisy. And there's Sue.

Oh, she never wipes anything down. And before we go, we want to thank our newest and most badass of patron members, Melissa Manon, who quoted our pet phrase, dumb fucking potato, in a message to us recently. And we quite appreciated it. Thank you, Melissa. Yes, go ahead, Tyler. You can do the credits. Yes, at least some of them. Ah, Was I in a Cult was written, produced, and hosted,

usually by me, Tyler Meesom, and her, Beth Iacuzzi. Oh, man. You thought I'd forget, didn't you? I did, I was hopeful, but no, I shouldn't have given you that layup. Our sound wizard is the magical Rob Para. Thank you for not calling me Bob. Yeah, like your Bob is my Beth, right?

So bad. So bad. And a special thanks to our assistant editor, Greta Stromquist. Social media badass is our very own Shani Payton. And executive producer is Steven with an S, Labrum with an L. Stay safe out there guys. Be kind to each other. And we'll see you in a week. Yeah, be kind to each other. Remember, as I learned in my son's kindergarten class this

week, it's okay to be mad, but it's not okay to be mean. Aww. It's okay to be mad, but it's not okay to be mean. Awwww. Crucify me