Was I In A Cult? - Carol the Cult Assassin: "Out of Fear Into Power"

Episode Date: April 17, 2023

So you've survived an abusive cult. Now what? What exactly are the legal options available to you? An investigative litigator who represents victims of cultic and religious abuse, Carol Merchasin, sat down with us to discuss just that. She is our hero. - Find Carol at Mcolaw.com. Support us on Patreon! : https://www.patreon.com/wasiinacult Follow us on Instagram: @wasiinacult Have your own story and want to be on the show? Email us: [e-mail]

Please note, this episode discusses sensitive topics such as sexual assault. What the heck is happening to society that we have 10,000 cults in the United States. I often wonder whether life has become so anxiety-producing that people are looking more for some answer and not really understanding that the answer that they're being given is not a good answer. Welcome to Was I and Occult Guys. And I'm Liz Ayakusie. And today's episode is a bit of a first for us. We went a little off-roading, if you will. You know, try new things, talking to new people.

It's a very special episode. Yeah, it's kind of like when Eldabarge came on the facts of life and Blair, Tootie and Joe and Natalie, they all auditioned to be as backup singers. Is that what it's like? Yeah. I don't think half the people understood that you were speaking English right there. Are more mature and discriminating audience will certainly understand Liz. The ones who deal with chronic neck pain on a daily basis. You're my chronic neck pain on a daily basis. Today you guys for the very first time on this show, we are not talking to a survivor of a cult. No, we are not. We are talking to the wonderwoman of cult abuse.

And here she comes, flying in with her lasso of truth. I'm so excited to have you on our show. You are an atypical interview for us because Carol, she takes down these cults guys. She just bulldozes these assholes into the ground. Excuse my language. And she is a lovely, badass, awesome woman. Why don't you introduce yourself? I'm a lawyer, number one. And I think that what I do, I mean, I litigate cases on behalf of survivors, thrivers, who have left cults, but who have been sexually

abused or assaulted within the cult itself, and I bring litigation on their behalf. Can you just give us a little background on who you are and how you got into this? I was a lawyer in a number of big firms and I worked for corporate America. Just after Harvey Weinstein, this sexual harassment became a big thing, and I began doing sexual harassment cases, and also investigating sexual misconduct in the workplace.

So that must have been 2017. A woman contacted me and she was doing a project of shining what she called shining a light on the sexual misconduct within a Buddhist community in Canada. I said to her, well, you need to have them do an investigation because in corporate America, if somebody said these things, you would do an investigation, you would try to find out what happened, you would hold the person who was responsible, you would hold them accountable. And what I found out was that corporate America was doing a much better job with sexual misconduct in the workplace than religious America. This happened to be Buddhist America and

I was stunned because when we brought this to their attention including the fact that the organization had been aware of it and covered it up, the response was less than ideal, I would say. The response was, well, yeah, maybe that happened, but you know, kind of who cares, in the sense that there was never even any kind of effort toward reparations toward people who had survived this. Yeah, there's no HR to go to. They're absolutely, Liz. That was, I was like, completely clueless, right? I was like, where's the HR department? You know, guide me to the HR department and I'll speak for them.

And you know if you're saying corporate America is handling sexual assault better than blank, well then blank must be real fucked up. Am I right, Tyler? Must be real blanked up. And so before I was even done dealing with that, another woman came forward who said, I have five women who were assaulted in another Buddhist community. Would you investigate and do what you did in this other case? And so then I did another investigation and then another investigation, kind of from one to another in what I think of as my

five-year project of pro bono investigations into sexual misconduct and spiritual communities. I had to branch out from the Buddhists into other kinds of organizations like yoga and like really hardcore cults. But I couldn't get anywhere Liz. You know, I would say this is credible, you need to investigate, you need to look at it. But the organization continued to do things the way that they always had done them.

And I ran into a woman, Anne Oliverius. She is the founding partner of a law firm in London, and she was doing this kind of work, and she was a warrior, and she was fierce. And I said, how about taking some of these cases in litigation? And so she agreed, and eventually I left my world of pro bono investigations and became a litigator. So I am working within her firm now to bring these cases to some kind of accountability. And as a litigator, most of her cases involve sexual assault or forced labor,

issues that hold up in a court of law. Unfortunately, issues that result in psychological damage, like brainwashing, manipulation, indoctrination, or financial abuse, these are much harder to prove in our current judicial system. So, when did you learn the difference between a religious organization, per se, and a cult? You can almost tell by the names, that there's going to be a you learn the difference between a religious organization per se and a cult? You can almost tell by the names that there's going to be a problem, you know, like the movement of God or the, you know, the light of the earth.

I never thought about these organizations as cults in the beginning. Right. But at some point or another, I began to see a pattern. I then later learned to call it either cult or cult-ish or cult-like, because I think these things probably exist on a spectrum. What I saw is there is an autocratic leader, often charismatic, that there is no dissent that is allowed, that people are separated out into isolation, so they have no input of other people's ideas about what's happening. That's critical, that things are secret. I think the thing that happens in these groups that is really a terrible violation is that

people are silenced and they are not permitted to have their own thoughts. It's taking what we understand about ourselves and our own experience and saying that's worthless. The only thing that's worth anything is the teachers assessment of the experience. And you know another thing that's occurring to me Liz is one of those markers of the kind of cult experience is there is no organization that has any power over or regulating any of these people. Right because of the religious element. Right. If you look at Buddhism in America, if you look at yoga in America, there is no oversight. There is nothing that says you can't just

do whatever you want to do. I long for the day when I can hold a case in my hand that's reported by the court and say, this is where you're going. Those of you who are engaged in this, you are no longer are going to be able to do this with impunity. But there are obstacles that are put in our way. One of the obstacles is the statute of limitations. There is a limited amount of time. It's not right, it's not just, but it is the way that it is. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th th th. th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th th th th th th th th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi the thi statute of limitations. There is a limited amount of time. It's not right. It's not just, but it is the way that it is. In a sexual assault claim, it goes state by state. Some states have a couple of years,

which we know is not enough time to process what has happened to people. Sometimes the problem that we have is tying it to an organization, because it's not just about the perpetrator. I'm very, very convinced that we need to hold organizations accountable as well as the individuals. It sounds crass, but there has to be money somewhere, because that's what the currency of justice is in the civil justice system.

It's about money. It's about giving people reparations so that they can heal from the harm that's been done to them. And so we often encounter situations where it's not about anything other than the fact that they're the harm that's been done to them. And so we often encounter situations where it's not about anything other than the fact that there is no money there to have reparations be given. And I also want to talk about the shame and the encouragement of people to pursue because I think it is a hard thing for people to actualize on, I'm sure. It is. It's very difficult.

You know, often I see that people who have been involved in cults and who have been harmed in cults blame themselves. Or sometimes we as society look at those people and think, oh, well, that would never happen to me. But that isn't true at all. In my experience, the people who are involved in calls have often come from a place of vulnerability. They've come from a place of trust.

And it is simply that the person that they trusted is not trustworthy. And it is the people who are not trustworthy who should be blamed. And so I say that for everyone out there who's thinking, gee, if I had been smarter, I wouldn't. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with being a human being, who has th, who who who who who who who who who who who who has the ability, who has the ability, who has the ability, who has the ability, who has th, who has th, who has the th, who has the th, who's thinking, gee, you know, if I had been smarter, I wouldn't. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with being a human being who has the ability to be vulnerable and to trust, and that's a positive thing. You know, we see such harm that has been done, and for those folks to blame themselves, it's just, it is just it's too much for me, you know. Let's put the

blame where the blame is, where it belongs, on people who have done really heinous things. Another reason people are afraid to speak out is fear of retaliation from the cult and its leader. So I asked Carol about this, and funny enough, she herself was once threatened with defamation in her early pro bono days from one of the cult she was investigating, and this is what she said. Liz, you, I'm laughing because when I was threatened with defamation I got a lawyer and I said, you know, I am really frightened and he said to me, do you believe these stories are true? And I said, I know they're true because I've investigated them.

And he said, then if you believe that they are true, the last thing in the world that these people want to do is put a lot of people under oath and have their depositions taken and find out that all of these the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the. the. the. the.. the.. the. the.. the. the.. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the the the. the. thean thean toean toean thean thean thean thean thean thean thean. thean. the. the have their depositions taken and find out that all of these things are true. They know they're true. And the way that they silence people is, as you said, by being bullies and by threats. To me, as soon as people start to threaten, I know that they are frightened. Now you've opened an investigation into you and how you live and your practices. Do you really want people to investigate that? That is exactly right, and the answer is they don't. As soon as the threats begin, then I know that we are touching a nerve somewhere.

And so I think that if we reframe it that way for people, then we can take it out of the fear threats that threats that th.. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thin thin thin thin th.. thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin that that that that that that that that that that that that that thaten thaten thaten thaten thaten thaten thaten thaten thaten thaten thaten thaten thaten that. that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that. that that. that. thr. threat. thr. thouching a nerve somewhere. And so I think that if we reframe it that way for people, then we can take it out of fear and into power. Hmm, interesting food for thought. And we'll have more snacks to chew on after this break. Um, you know what I hate? The term foodie. Totally overused. It's pedestrian. Plus it sounds like a cute sock you put over a turkey leg, a foodie. Me, I prefer the term gourmand.

Oh, that's perfectly snobby. Yeah, or if you really want to crank up the pretentiousness, call yourself a gastronome. No! Now you've crossed a line, Tyler. As a gastronome myself, I love to to to to cook. I do too, but you know what I don't like? Deciding what that's going to be. So when I'm tight on time, which is all the time, I use every plate to make meal times stress-free without compromising quality. They send you all the ingredients and meals and to their teau. And I love that you can customize that you that you that you the the that you can the the the thine thine the thine thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thiants thi thi thi thi thiants thiats thi. thi. thi. that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that thi thi thi thiants thia thia thia thia thia thia. thia. thia. to to to tia. tia. thau. thau. thau. thau. thau. thau. thau. thau. thas. that's thas. to swap proteins and sides or add a protein to veggie dishes. You do you. Like last week we had this

honey soraccia fried chicken with the side of mashed sweet potatoes and zucchini. It was delicious and not something I would have ever thought to put together. Yeah and I made these gooy pork burgers and my son and I loved it. And their meals have a 31% lower carbon footprint on average than supermarket meals of the same portion. Yeah, the best part, every plate is 25% cheaper than grocery shopping with no hidden fees, so you can count on great value week after week. Get started with every plate for just $1.49 by going to every plate.com slash podcast. By going to every plate.com slash podcast and entering code cult 14 four nine go to every plate dot com slash

podcast and enter code cult one four nine. worked on in... Right now? Yeah. I think we have, hmm, maybe 12, 13 cases that were actively litigating. Wow. What's the process like for you? How do these women or men find you and how do you work with somebody? Well, so people come through a variety of avenues to us. One of them is podcasts, you know, so people hear this. You know, we've had people who come forward who say, you know, I didn't even know that what happened to me was wrong because people think that they consented. And there is no such thing in these situations. There is no issue of consent.

You may have thought that you didn't fight this person off. That doesn't mean that you consented. You may have thought that you did it willingly, but you didn't. There is no issue of consent. So a lot of times people hear that and they say, oh, wow, well that really changes the way that I look at this. And then they may go to the website for the law firm. And there's a form on there that you can either call us

or you can type in and email us and say, I'd like to talk with you. And then we set up a call. And what we do is we listen to people's stories. The first thing is that we believe people because nobody does this for fun, Liz. Nobody makes these things up. In fact, I often think you couldn't possibly make some of these things up. So we believe people. We try to treat our survivors with respect and with dignity. What we're doing is we are listening.

And then we are going back and with our team, we are thinking about, we are thinking about, we are're doing is we are listening. And then we are going back and with our team, we are thinking about, is there a path to a legal accountability through a lawsuit? We're looking at where it took place. We're looking at the statute of limitations. We can only be dealing with sexual assault, not the kind of

psychological abuse that happens and that is terrible, but there are very few tools for. And then we're coming back to the survivor and saying either we think that there's a path or there isn't. If there's a path and people want to proceed, then we do more research on the kinds of claims that that we can bring. So, thi, that that that that is that is thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi thi thi. thi thi thii. thi thi thi thi thito proceed, then we do more research on the kinds of claims that we can bring. So one of the claims that we are looking at now and hoping that we can make it be successful is the human trafficking statute. Human trafficking is commonly misunderstood. And I know that your

listeners are going to be exactly like me. When I first heard of this being used back in 2019, it was about Harvey Weinstein. He had been charged with human trafficking and I thought, hmm, I don't get that. I didn't think that he moved people across state lines. And so I started looking into it, and what I found out is that the human trafficking laws actually are not about trafficking. Like, why couldn't they have named it something else, you know, that would give us some idea?

What it is, Liz, it is a statute about fraud and coercion. There has to be some connection to interstate commerce, which is where the trafficking comes from. But the connection to interstate commerce doesn't have to be crossing state lines. So for example, having people come to your retreat center from various states is what the law describes as de minimis, which simply means it can be very, very small. So think of that in terms of the cults

and the kinds of experiences that people have had. It is about someone using fraud or coercion to get you to have sex. And one thing that I really love about the human trafficking law, just from a psychological perspective, is that it doesn't have anything to do with consent. It doesn't have anything to do with the woman who was by fraud or coercion forced to have sex, and I don't mean physically forced. I mean fraudulently enticed. It's the focus is on the perpetrator and and to go back to what I

said earlier that is where I feel that our focus needs to be. The perpetrator and the organization that enabled all of this, that is where our spotlight needs to be shining, not on the person who was fraudulently induced in this. So this is an important concept, human trafficking and its correct definition. Human trafficking does not only include sexual coercion, but also forced labor. I naively thought for the longest time human trafficked individuals were underage girls from third world countries that are kidnapped and taken to, say, Amsterdam and then forced into prostitution.

And that's just one example of it, perhaps the extreme version of it, but it's so clearly much more than that. And in a way, so much less, right? Like, it's much simpler. Mm-hmm. And therefore, much more common than we probably realize. Did Harvey Weinstein sort of blow the lid off of like, what constitutes human traffic? Like, the one maybe thing that came out of that is that now we have a much wider understanding of it and we're focused on it in a new way. Wow, so let's look at that because I think people

have an understanding as well of what Harvey Weinstein was up to. And what the court said is that telling a woman, I'm going to get you an interview with a famous producer, which will help your career if you have sex with me, is human trafficking. And so it is very clear that that was fraudulent, that was coercion, but you can see how that fits into the kind of cult experience, which is really all about fraud and coercion. And do you have any experience with the psychological damage of being human trafficked?

I mean, I work with survivors, right? I'll see people who are not able to take this path because they are so wounded. I mean, I see, I see that that. I see that that that, I'm the th. I that, I that, I that, I that, I that, I that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, that, that's that, that, that, that's that's that, that, that's that's that, that, that's that, that's thate, that's, thate, that's thate, thate, thate, thate, who are not able to take this path because they are so wounded. I see people who are 10 years in and still dealing with it, which is why I say I know that the statutes of limitations are too short, right? Because we need a long time to recover from that kind of trauma. One of the difficulties is that people come in with trauma. They are looking to heal. I interviewed a woman who told me she had joined this particular group because she was looking to heal from childhood sexual trauma. And the first thing the leader did was

in an interview room in which the two of them were alone was to tell her to take off her clothes and sit on his lap because he was going to give her this tantric empowerment. And of course she was retraumatized. Anybody with half an ounce of sense in their brain would know that that would be retromatizing to a person who just told you that they were trying to recover from childhood sexual trauma. But these people are narcissists. Yeah and they have their own severe trauma and mental illness. I mean they're not mentally sound people. That is right. Let's talk about yoga. Well here's what I would say I th you th you that th that that that I would that I would that I would say that I would say that I would say that I would say that I would say that I would say that I would say that I would say that I would say that I would say that I would say that I would say that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. tho. they were tho. they're tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. that that that that that that that tho. is right, indeed. Let's talk about yoga.

Well here's what I would say, as I would say about the Buddhists or the Christians or the, you know, anybody, it's not the teachings particularly that lead people astray. It's the manipulation of the teachings that is a problem. And so people are there because they're in a transition point in their own lives. Like I've just graduated from college or with my master's degree or I've just broken up with a boyfriend and so this I've got this space of time that is so precious I'm going to go to an ashram and I'm going to practice yoga and I'm going to study and this will be a fabulously healing experience. And so the issues within the yoga community that I have seen have to do with people going to

ashrums where they are by design separated from the outside world. We did a very large investigation into all kinds of abuse but but the most common one was forced labor. Right. And then the manipulation of using Sanskrit, you know, sacred Sanskrit words to justify behaviors. Yes. Like, Sava is selfless service. Selfless service, yes. Right? So then they use this word Sava all the time. Oh, that's Sava. Have you done your Sava? And like you said, they're getting no sleep, they're working in the kitchens for free, they're cleaning the ashrams for free, and all in the name of getting outside of yourself. Yeah, and think about this. This is a business model for a lot of big yoga organizations where they don't have to pay labor.

It's a pretty smart business model, in fact. It's just not smart for the people who are being abused in that way. So what people say is, well, I was there for six months, but then what I was told was, well, you should stay here, because we take care of people. You won't be able to make it in the outside world, because it's too chaotic out there and here we're very calm and you can study and you can go on this spiritual path.

But the difficulty is that after you're there for a couple of years you can't leave even if you'd like to because you don't have any money and you don't have any credit and you're not able to get an apartment and you are more or less stuck. And in some situations, certainly in the ones that I investigated, there was a disregard of known sexual assaults. And if you think about it, if you have no money and you've been theirs for some period of time, and you're sexually assaulted and what you're told is that, you can't talk about it because you should not have negative thoughts.

You have to have positive thoughts or else you have bad karma. And you don't really have any choice but to absorb that message and it does an enormous amount of damage. And were these ashrams in India? These were yoga cults out of India. Some were in India, but not all in India, because there are yoga organizations all over, andhrams all over. And then there are some people who are just kind of culturally appropriating all kinds of religions and calling their situation an ashram when in fact it's a cult.

You see why a yoga community is so susceptible to becoming a cult because of the way the dogma is abused, right? You have a guru who is wise, who has been around for years, who has earned this wisdom. The guru can make no mistakes. If you feel like it's a mistake, it's because you are not enlightened enough to recognize how good it is for you. And they're speaking it with authority. And you, poor American, who live in all of your stress and anxiety and material world, thinking you're getting somewhere but you're miserable. And people go, oh, there's some truth to that. There's some truth to that. And there is a lot of truth in all of these teachings. Right, that's the prompt. That's that's why it's so tricky. And in addition

I think the isolation part works against people obviously. You know if you think of our own lives where you know we're going along and we're going to make a decision and then we go in and we have coffee with a friend and We say oh, I'm about to you know quit my job and go off to be in the circus and be a trap with artist and You know the friend says what are you crazy? You know people who know? People who know you people are willing to say to you. Well, that just sounds like a you know like a dumb th crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy crazy? like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. their thi. thi. thi. their thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi. to. to. to. to. to. to to to thi. to their. their. their. their. their their their thi. thi. thi. thi willing to say to you, well that just sounds like a, you know, like a dumb, crazy idea. You don't have that. In these tightly, you know, contained organizations. And so I have seen people come out of the cult and years later,

have them finally describe to somebody what happened to them and have that person say, you know, well, sweetie, you were raped. And have that be the first inkling that that was true. These are very high context situations. The context matters. And when you're in the context of a spiritual, a so-called spiritual community, that matters to people. It colors how they think about what happened to them. Of course. I had a woman who made, if this had happened to me in a dark alley,

I would have known I was raped. But because it was within my spiritual community, I had no idea. Hey guys, last week we asked you to share with us your short cult stories. And this is just us popping back to remind you. Kind of like that mysterious rash you got in college that just keeps coming back to remind you of... Good times. Good times. And this is just us, popping back to remind you of... Good times, good times. So please everyone we're reminding you to record a unique story about your own cultic experience. Please make it around 10 minutes. And send it to us at

Info at Wasa Anticult. Again our email is Info at Wasana Cult. And we just might use it in an episode. Sort of like a wasana cult all-star cameo episode. Yeah, kind of like when Hervey Villages came on different strokes and helped Sam and Arnold's door-to-door bug spray business. I still don't think people know what language you're speaking. Maybe if I say it's slower. It's when Hervey Villageschase who would normally play Mr. Work's assistant tattoo, well he came on different strokes, and Sam McKinney, who was Mr. Drummond's stepson.

You remember when he married that rich woman, the Southern Axis, she was terrible? Well he and Arnold Jackson had this idea to sell bug spray to people in the apartment and they knocked on Hervey Villages' door. We're going to get back to Carol. For those th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, to, to, to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tho, the thrown.e, thrown, thrown, too, thrown, too, too, too, too, too, too, the the to that might not understand. Why do you think after somebody's been through this traumatic experience such as a sexual assault, it does take as long as it takes for them to be able to speak about it? When you are violated, when you are assaulted sexually, when you are taken advantage of, when you are in a situation in which you placed your

trust in these people, it is very difficult to overcome the shame. I mean what we know is someone who is raped has their own shame about what happened to them even though it wasn't in any way their fault. We have blame. So we have people who are blaming themselves for what somebody else did to them because, you know, that's kind of a deep current that runs through us. I mean, in these cults where the teachings are manipulated, that is what people are taught. When we are taught that, we believe that, and

it takes time for those beliefs to fall away. We have people who've taken 20 years, because they couldn't tell anybody about it. Nobody would believe them. There are many, many reasons why people do not speak out and cannot speak out until they have processed it. I also think that similar to the definition of human trafficking has been misunderstood. I think the definition of rape has been misunderstood. That's right. I think that that's another thing that awareness is bringing us is a different understanding about what consent is. You don't have to have violent rape in order to understand that rape is, in most definitions, sexual penetration, without consent. You don't have to

have to have fought back for consent to be an issue. The consent has to be informed, it has to be given freely, and we're beginning to see this. I think my experience with young women in our society is that they have a much better understanding of this and that they're going to be leading the way on this, which is a very positive thing. Yeah, and the nuance of coercion and fraud. Exactly.

Which is very nuanced. It doesn't say by being pinned down to the ground, you know, while you fought like a tiger. Right. It says by fraud. And it doesn't have anything to do with whether you consented or not, because consent is not an issue. You know, I will also say that in 13 states and the District of Columbia, consent is also not an issue between a clergy person and a parishioner. So I mean, there's undoubtedly legal battles over whether that applies to some of these

cult leaders or not. But in the criminal statutes in those 13 states, that consent is not a defense. So when you get up on the stand and they start to cross-examine you and say, well, but did you fight back? Did you, you know, whatever? They're not allowed to do that because consent is not an issue. We need more of that. Yes. Yes, we do.

And I guess my last question for you, just, um, a quote, survivor. I think a lot of the myth is, oh, they're lost, they're lemming, they're vulnerable, they're vulnerable, they're vulnerable, they're vulnerable, they're, they're, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toeckecklipha, toe, toe.e.they're weak, they're gullible, they're idiots, right? But that's just not the case. But in your experience, is there a quote type of person and can you just give us an example of the quote types of women or men you have encountered who have fallen into cult? I would say that a lot of the people that we encounter are seekers. You know, they're seeking a better world. This is not a bad thing. It's a good thing. They, in some ways, could be seen as risk-takers, in the sense that they are willing to go to an ashram in India or some other place and try some other kind of life. They have an openness to life.

They have a trust of people which as we said before is tremendously important. I do not see the stereotypes of people who get involved in cults as dumb. These are not people who are stupid or weak. Look, you come out of some of these situations that are about as horrible as you could imagine. And you survive? That's a strong person I want on my team. Carol, how can anyone find you if they choose to? Well, you can go to our website. You'll find me there, so you'll look for Carol Merchison, and you can read about the work that we're doing, and you can send us a message, you can also call.

I'm happy, always happy to talk with anyone who feels that they're in a place where they want to take some action. We aren't always able to help everyone, but we are always, always wanting to listen to people's story and help them assess whether there's a path. Just tell us your story. It doesn't obligate you to do anything and in fact there may be, we may say to you there is nothing you can do but I think just telling the story is getting your voice back reclaiming something and maybe there is something that can be done and then you decide what's

going to be the best thing for you. Well thank you for all the work you do. We need more carols in the world but we'll take the best thing for you. Well, thank you for all the work you do. We need more carols in the world, but we'll take the ones we got. Well, you know what? I think that I would speak for every lawyer who is doing this kind of work that it is an honor to work with people who are working their way out of these situations in such brave ways. It is a gift

and we fight hard every day for that. I love it. Well this has been really amazing and thank you again Carol for everything. Thank you Liz for what you're doing and giving a platform for people to tell their stories and it's been a pleasure being here. Thank you for having me. And that is our show. Yeah, thank you so much for listening, everyone. Oh, Tyler's still here. We missed you, Tyler, on this episode. I know, you just carried on a conversation. I was listening.

I was listening. You are deeply enthralled. Mm-hmm. Every once in a while it's okay for me to take a back seat to you, Liz. Well, he wipes the tears from his eyes. Don't worry, Tyler. You are still loved and special. told, thrown, thrown. to to to their, to to to their, to to too, too, their, too, too, too, too, too, they. too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, the the the the the the, tho, tho, tho, tho, the the, tho, the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. too, too, too, too, too, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thr, thr, thr, the the the the the thea, thea, thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea, thea, thea few things on this show, Liz. What did you learn?

I learned a lot about human trafficking and the definition of it. And I also am going to be a little more careful when I'm choosing my next ashram. Oh yeah, when are you going to be choosing an ashram? When I'm choosing my next ash trick. Ashrom. What about you, Miss, what do you learn? I just, I never thought about, you know, the way she called out religious America, like having no accountability. You think about, like you think about that. That's fucking crazy.

Well it's good gig if you can get it, religion, cult leader. What religion should we start? Because I swear to God. I would love to not pay some taxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the. the. the. the. the. the. too. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. to. to. to God I would love to not pay some taxes. I don't know, probably just religion of a nice Sunday off with some brunch, maybe fresh squeezed orange juice and a mimosa religion. Perfect. We'll call it the Sunday brunch religion. As long as I get my check picked up. Exactly. For brunch, totally fine. I can be the leader of that. I'll spare some knowledge. Oh you will. Dole out some wisdom. And the only only only only only only only only only only only only the only the only the only the only the only the only the only the only the only th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to to to to to too. too. toe toe toe toe. th. th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. t. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. to. to. to. te. te. to. the te. the the te. Oh you will. I'll dole out some wisdom. And the only way I can give you this information is if I have eggs Benedict and hashbrows. And Hollandaise on the side, bitch. So picky when on the side.

So difficult. So difficult. I want this show with Tyler on the side, which we got. We got this show with Tyler on this episode. Thanks. to a fucking 80s. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. this episode. Thanks. Just dip into Tyler every once in a while for a stupid reference to a fucking 80s sitcom. Congratulations, Liz. You got your wish.

You guys, we do hope this episode was informative and eye-opening. And oh, we will have one of those yoga cult survivors. She was referencing on the show next season. So get excited for that. And here's to hoping the judicial system continues to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to to to to to the to the to the to the the to to to the to to to the the to to the the the the the to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the faqqqqqqqqqqq. the faq. the f. the f. the f. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tia.f. tia. tiol. ti. ty. ty. ty. ty. ty. ty. ty. ty. ty. ty. tof. tof. the the t So get excited for that. And here's to hoping the judicial system continues to make amends to the laws surrounding psychologically damaging issues like financial abuse, manipulation, indoctrination, and brainwashing. Until then, we have incredible humans like Carol helping with the rampant sex abuse and forced labor issues. And on that uplifting note... We'll be back next week with a wild story about a martial arts cult guys. It's actually not too far from my

hometown of Chicago. Pam Zekman even makes a cameo. Do you know who that is now? Nope I do not but I do because I edited that show so I do know who it is now. Well my shy town homies will know exactly who I'm talking about. And then Keith tortured me. Mentally, physically, took me through workouts that were beyond physical exhaustion. There was one night where I'm training and he's standing over me why I'm doing a form called de doji and you have to stay really low. And for an hour and a half, he stood next to me with a bamboo sort,

they called gumdoce. And he hit me in the back and hit me in the legs, and he tell me how weak I was and tell me to cry and this went on for months. Was I In a Cult is written produced and hosted by the man on the side Tyler Mesaum. And Liz Aykusi. The chips in the middle of the plate. The soggy chips that nobody wants at the bottom of the nacho pile. Production and editing by the fabulous Kristen Vermilia. Thank you, Kristen, for all of your hard work. And sound design and mixing by Rob Parra,

who tirelessly puts the music into these episodes. Thank you, Rob. Additional editing by Emily Carr. And that's it, everyone, good night. And thank you for listening. Good night. And good luck. The end. I got the last word in.

No you didn't. No you didn't. Yes, I did. I met.