Was I In A Cult? - Democratic Workers: “The Revolution Isn’t A Tea Party"

Episode Date: November 24, 2021

Some experts come by their expertise by way of education. Some by experience. Others, by both. As is the case with today's guest. Dr. Janja Lalich joins us to share her experience in a 1970s Marxist Cult, as well as enlighten us with her expertise on the subject.   She's been there, done that, and has more than lived to talk about it.  ______   Janja's Twitter: @Janja_Lalich   Her books: "Stuff They Don't Want You To Know" episode:  Please support Was I In A Cult? Through PatreonSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's an insult to the people who join cults and who get out of cults to think they were weak. You're not weak. They make you weak. They turn you into a dependent personality. We shouldn't make you to be a dependent personality. We shouldn't make fun of them or humiliate them. That could be you, you know, that could be me. That was me. So, I mean, just about anybody can end up in a cult. And we're back. This is Was I in a Cult.

I'm Liz. I'm Tila Kuzza. And I'm Tyler Missom. Did you miss us guys? Because a lot can happen in two weeks. Yeah, Liz. Trans can change. Stiles can change.

But you look the damn same. Why don't you ever change? I think I'm wearing the same shirt that I was two weeks ago. I think you actually haven't left this room. Well, missed us or not, we... They'd missed us. It's not an or not. Missed us. We missed you. We missed you a lot you guys. And we have a very interesting episode today, but it is slightly different from our other ones. Because this one we're going to do completely in Morse code, just dots and dashes. No we're not. Not exactly, it's still just our desperate voices. You are welcome. Now we've been asked a ton of questions about cults from you guys and the stereotypes around the subject. And so we

elected to bring in an expert. A master on the subject. I personally learned a ton from this interview. You may know her from the stars hit miniseries seduced which covers the Nexium cult. Or HBO Max-X-on, the th's th's th's th's th's th's th is th is th is th is th is thi-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o' th. th. thi-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-s, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. You th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th-a-a-a-a-a-a-s. th. th-s. th-s, th-s, th-s, the-s. the. the. the. thease-s. thea-s. thea-s. toda-s. theeease-s. thea-s. the. thi-s. this interview. You may know her from the stars hit miniseries seduced, which covers the Nexium cult. Or HBO Max's mini series, Heaven's Gate, the Cult of All Colts. She has spent a better part of 30 years studying and teaching on the subject. And has authored many important books, such as Take Back Your Life,

recovering from cults and abusive relationships. Her name is Dr. Yanya Lollich, and we are so lucky to have her. But Yanya is more than simply an expert on cult. She has her own story of being in and out of a 1970s political cult. So we'll start the episode with her story of being in a cult. And then the second half will be the juicy questions and commentary about the subjects of cults themselves. And there will be a test at the end, you guys.

So take notes. Liz had a lovely conversation with Yanni over Zoom and they covered some really amazing topics. So I'm just going to sit here quietly. Try not to bud in and I'm going to finish this piece of pie that I brought with me. Two weeks ago because you have not left. It's warm in here. Hello, hello, hello. Hello. How long have we been trying to do this? We've, I think a good, better part of a month? You think so. It's so great to meet you. Yeah, it's good to meet you. Is that a tattoo on your arm? Yeah, it's an owl. Wow. That's an owl. Wow. That's a that's incredible. that's that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a good. that's a good. that's a good. that's a good. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their. their their their their their their their their their their th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. ti. try. today. today. try. today. tou. try. today. try. today. th. th. th. th. th. th. th so great to meet you. Yeah, it's good to meet you. Is that a tattoo on your arm? Yeah, it's an owl. Wow, that's incredible.

It was my 71st birthday present to myself. Come on. It was the first tattoo I ever got, and the guy thought I was crazy. Did it hurt? Oh, it hurt like hell. And I did it all in one sitting. I was singing along with Patty LaBelle, like at the top of my lungs. Like I'm screaming with Patty LaBelle. I love it. So maybe we should start just with your story if you don't mind? Sure. And then the questions like obviously what constitutes a cult in your definition?

The wide range of cults, how prevalent they are today. Okay. Well, the? Well, I was, the. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was.c. I was. I. I was. I was. I. I was. I was. I. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I cults, how prevalent they are today. Okay. Well, I was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. We lived in a pretty lower middle class, working-class neighborhood, working-class neighborhood. We were sort of considered outsiders because we were Slavic, and it was a very German neighborhood in German town, and so we experienced a certain amount of discrimination because of that. So anyway, I got to the University of Wisconsin on scholarships and I did my junior year

in France. I became a French major. I graduated with honors. I then got a Fulbright fellowship and went back to France on an independent research project. And while I was in France this was in 1967-68 and some people may know that in May of 68 there was kind of a revolution in France where the whole country went on strike.

The three hundred years that we promised us to be the USHONE and so I was part of that we occupied the university part of that. We occupied the university, all of that. So before that, I had been sort of realizing what the Vietnam War was about and reading a lot of political literature and going to political meetings in France. And when the year ended, she didn't have enough money to apply to graduate school. So she moved back to the U. US, New York, to be exact. And I ended up dropping out and becoming a hippie.

It was 1969, after all. Picture your stereotypical hippie, and that was Janya. Traveled across country in a painted bus, you know, the whole thing. Including being the beverage bitch for none other than the great Janice Joplin. She had me on stage with her holding her bottle of Southern Comfort for her. What? In between songs, so I was like right by the curtain. And then she'd come over and take a swig and go back to the microphone. A perhaps enviable gig at the time. time. time. time. tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. to to to to to to to to to be too, too, too, to to bea, and to bea, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, to be to be to be to be to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to be. to be. to be. to be. too, too, too, th. thi. thi. thi. thi. the the thi. the the the. the the the the the. the the the the the the the the the. the the the toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. to the microphone. A perhaps enviable gig at the time. Well, somebody had to do it.

Janice's drink wasn't going to hold itself. My claim to fame. That's amazing. Yeah. So I had a boyfriend, who was really the first boyfriend I ever had. He was very abusive. And long story short, I ended up leaving the country and moving to Europe and I lived on an island off the coast of Spain for four years.

Oh wow. I had to escape from him. I see. So I landed on this island and I lived there for there, I discovered that I was a lesbian, and I had my first lesbian relationship. And so in 74, I moved back to America and I went to San Francisco. I happened to be living in the Castro district. She was about 30 years old at this point, and wanted to be a writer. I was working part-time at the progressive bookstore, and I was typing for lawyers.

This is in the days of typewriters, and I was typing legal briefs. I mean, it was a very heady time in San Francisco then, or in all the big cities, after the Vietnam War ended. It was like lefties, everywhere were trying to figure out what to do. There were a lot of study groups in those days. This was in the 70s and all around sort of the Marxist movement on the black nationalist movements and the different movements that were going on at that time, right? And so people would gather like at their houses and they'd read various

revolutionary literature, you know, Lenin and Mao and whoever. I had met a friend of a friend and we'd have coffee and then one day she said we have the study group and we're going to study women in the state, you know, the role of women in the state. Would you like to join? The study group was all women and mostly recruited from the lesbian community. Just an innocent little study group. So when I got to the study group, from the lesbian community. Just an innocent little study group. So when I got to the study group, I was pleased to see the people I knew. The readings were intellectually stimulating.

Each week one of us was assigned to lead the discussion of the reading for that week. So when it was my turn to lead the discussion, Oh,the praise I got, oh they just raved about me, oh they just thought I was the cat's pajamas, right? It was like, oh you're so wonderful, but you're so brilliant. This was part of the love bombing. You ever been love bombed, Tyler? I have not yet. No one's ever raved about about you. No, I'll th. the the the the the the to the to the to to the the to the the the to have the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. thathea. th. th. th. th. th. that is that. Oh, that. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, they're just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just, the the the the the the the the the th. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, that, that, that, that, that, that, that. Oh, that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that. Oh, th Nope. I'll try to incorporate more love bombing into our working relationship. Oh, thanks, Liz. That would help my ego. We have to remember it's all bullshit.

Okay. But you're great. I felt that one. How many people are in this group? In the study group, maybe 12, 14. Oh, so small. And the whole point of it, as I as I as I as I as I as I as as, as as, as th, as th, as th, as th, as th, as th, as it, as I was saying earlier, is we wanted to have a revolution, a socialist revolution.

We didn't say that to the public, but that's what we were. So after a few weeks, this friend asked to meet with me again at my house, and she said, well, how do you like the study group? I said, oh, well, what are you learning? And I said, I've learned that you have to have a vanguard, to have, the v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v vang, to have, to have, to have, to have, to have, the to have, the the to have, to have, the the th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, th......... And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th.a, th.a, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th th thee. th th th the. the. th th th th thean, the. th the. the. that, that, that, the. the. the. th th th that you have to have a vanguard Marxist party in order to make the revolution. And so she said, well, what if we told you we have one? And I'm like, what? I didn't realize that there was a group behind this study group and that's what they were using to recruit.

And she said, yeah, we have this international organization, it's multinational, wouldn't you like to join? I'm like, oh, that, that, that, that, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, th, th, well, what, what, what, what, what, what, thi, thi, what, what, what, what, thi, what, what, what if tho, what if tho, what if tho, what if tho, what if thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th th, th th, th th, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. thi, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that,, we have this international organization, it's multinational, wouldn't you like to join? And I'm like, oh yeah, sounds great. She said, well, well, first you have to fill out this application and then we'll get back to you if you're accepted. Ah, it finds this little bait and switch, right? So the application, of course, asked, everything about you. So I turned that in and within a week I was told that I was accepted. Accepted into a seemingly elite group.

And already they have ample information on her. Info that they will then weaponize later if needed. A brilliant cult tactic. I have anti-personality, right? I have the things that cults want. I'm multilingual. I've lived in Europe, I can perform, I'm smart, I'm this, I'm that. Your cult did it have a name?

Yeah, we had a lot of names actually. Our final background name, the name of the cult itself, was the Democratic Workers' Party. In fact, they had many different names in front organizations, worker patient organization, the peace and justice organization, and US out of Central America. And these groups would work behind the scenes to well initiate a Marxist revolution. Their hope was to convince the hearts and minds of the

people, but they were also quite successful in lobbying the government and getting numerous propositions on the ballots. Well, we actually took over, at one point we took over the Peace and Freedom Party, which was a third party on the tickets here in California. And we took them over for a while when we ran somebody for governor. So we did all kinds of dirty deeds like that, beat people up. I mean, you know, nothing super violent. And we weren't like bomb-throwing radicals. But the leader was a complete megalomaniac, alcoholic,

rageful, overweight woman. What was her name? Marlene Dixon. She was a sociology professor, and she taught at University of Chicago. And in November of 1968, Professor Marlene Dixon stood in at a student rally protesting Vietnam. Because of this, two months later, the University of Chicago's Sociology department declined to renew her appointment for a second term. And the students were not having it. They didn't care for this particular strong

arming. So they rose up against the school. And in January 1969,'t care for this particular strong-arming. So they rose up against the school. And in January 1969, over 400 students peacefully overtook the university administration building. And they stayed and lived there for two weeks. A good old-fashioned 1960s student sit-in. It was seen as a revolt against the treatment of Marlene Dixon, but it was generally a way for the students to air their many grievances against the university, including its lack

of opposition to the Vietnam War. And its poor support of the women's movement and the lack of female professors, among other things. But as a result of the protests, Dixon became something of a folk hero with a small following. And a couple of her former students were in San Francisco in a study group and invited her to come and visit. And so she basically took over the study group and then she somehow convinced them to start an organization, and then I joined sort of shortly after that.

The group was founded by 13 original women. Dixon wrote up the Constitution and was given the title of General Secretary. There were certain rules that I had to live by now. That I had to be available 24 hours a day. I couldn't tell anyone I was in this organization. And then after about a week, I was told I had to choose a new name. So I chose Emma, and after that I was a comrade Emma. After a while, she was told to quit her job.

I was just full-time for the organization. The first couple years was really exciting, and it was like, oh, I thought I had really found something special and this was really serious and all the founders were women. And so this was part of the appeal of our group was that we were led by women and they were going to fight sexism and all that. So they sort of brought me up the ranks very quickly. But I had a lot of different leadership positions like I was in charge of recruitment I was in charge of political study I was in charge of new members classes I then was told to build a publishing house so I ran the publishing house thus exploiting her talents as a writer moreover this

publishing house was actually servicing commercial clients like banks and catalogs and making money doing so. Of course, Yanya saw none of this revenue, but she did feel like she was on the executive board. I was in the inner circle almost the whole time until I couldn't take it anymore. And at her level, you were either fully committed to the cause or you were out. There was no halfway. We were full-time staffed, never had an outside job.

We had a set set set set set set set set set set set set set set set set set set set set that that that that that that that that that thamamamamamamamamamamamamamamamamamamamamamamamamamamamamam, thii, thi, thi, thi, th We had a set amount that everyone was supposed to live on, so if you worked, you turned over to the organization everything above that amount. Do you remember that set amount? You know, I think it was like, I don't know, maybe $600. It was below poverty level. So we all lived together in houses, like we'd get a Victorian to rent and we'd cram six or eight people into it and turn the dining room into a bedroom and you know because we couldn't afford no one could live on their own or anything like that.

Meanwhile the leader had two maids, two houses, a bodyguard and a sports car. All paid for by the sweat of the workers. What a bitch. You know we had a couple hundred members, full-time members. And how would you guys go about recruiting? In the beginning it was all through friendship networks. We would have these big picnics in Golden Gate's Park, you know, and everybody could invite someone to try to recruit.

If you were married, you were encouraged to either recruit your spouse or divorce them. If you had kids and you got divorced, you were supposed to give the kids to the spouse who wasn't in the group. So they didn't want the kids in the group? No kids. Because they would get in the way of our work. And this was no nine to five gig with weekends and holidays off. We worked 20 hour days, seven days a week. When you'd get home from whatever your work was, then to write reports, a security report, a the their, their, their, their, their, th, th, their, th, th, th, their, thi, thi, and thi, and their, and thi, and thi, and thoomomoroomoroomorousea, and thoomorough, thioloomorrow, thoomorrow, thoomorrow, thiolk, thiolk, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they report, a self-criticism report, or this report, or that report, and then get up at five and go out and be leafleting or selling the newspaper or whatever. We had a newspaper that we put out bi-weekly. It was called the Rebel Worker, and we did all the printing, everything ourselves. So people be all night up, printings, collating, sta, and st st st st st. thing, and to, and thing, and thi and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, and th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to, to, to, to, thi. thi. thi. thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, and th. And, and then, and th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, the printing everything ourselves. So people be all night up, printings, collating,

stapling, whatever. We had to sell those, so you'd maybe get 250 newspapers that you had to sell before the next one came out. And you had to turn in that money. I would take my papers and throw them in a dumpster. But then you had to come up with the money to pay for the papers. Right. Oh, interesting. People were selling. to to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. We. So, their. So, their. So, their. So, their. So, their. So, their. So, their. So, their. So, their. So, their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. We. We. We. I. I. We're to. We're tod. We're. We're. I. Wea. I. We're. I. And, to. We. I. And, to. We. And, the papers. So people were selling their blood to get money to pay for their papers because they couldn't bear to sell those regs anymore. And then we'd say, oh, and we sold 50 million papers this month, you know, and they're all in the dumpsters. So you know, even though you're completely brainwashed, right, you'd find these little ways to rebel. Right.

And like many cults, there was a lot of time spent analyzing members' behavior. We spent most of our time in meetings, sitting in a circle, and criticizing somebody, either for something they really did or just some trumped-up charge. If something was really bad, we would put people on trial. like you'd have to sit up in front of the room and everybody would just criticize you for hours. You're embarrassed, you're turning red, everybody's looking at you, people don't like you, you think you're going to get kicked out. We had one person where we kept her locked in a basement for days and she had to sit in a chair in a certain way and couldn't

move and there was a guard, 24-hour guard watching her. So we would do things like that. We would expel people and throw them out on the street in front of their kids. We were harsh. We were very harsh. The revolution isn't a tea party. Right. You expected your life to be hard. And we all spied on each other and turned each other in.

It was just brutal. Brutal anxiety-ridden existence. Right. Those of us who were considered cadre, like the full-time membership, were pretty much the same people over 10 years, and people were burned out. We were fried. We were reaching a breaking point. But just because you're in the inner circle of a cult doesn't mean you don't have concerns.

I had issues all along. I mean, that's why I was on trial so much, I think, you know, because the leader had this thing for me because I was from the working class. Sometimes she'd hold me up as like the model cadre member and then she'd have to just obliterate me, you know, so that it wouldn't go to my head. And by that time you blame yourself, you think it's you. It's like I, you know, I'm weak-willed, I can't do this, I'm lazy, I don't want to work this it's all my fault. But I had a lot of doubts after a few years, but it's, but it's, but it's, but it's, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to to be thi, to be to be to be to be to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, I was, I was, I'm, I'm, I'm, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I'm, I'm, I'm, too, too, too, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, to, but it just became impossible to leave. And we were told if we left, we would die in the streets because we were communists and

America's hated communists. And so no one would want us or help us. And I did have no money. I literally had no money. I had nowhere to go. I didn't know anyone outside the group anymore. I had either lost touch with everyone or recruited them.. So. So. So. So. So. So. to. to. to. to, I. to, I. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to leave, I, I, I, I to leave. to leave, I to leave, I to leave, I, I to leave, I to leave, I to leave, I to leave, I to leave. to leave. to leave. to leave. to leave. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thea.ea.ea.ea.ea, the thii. Wea. I was just justto go. I didn't know anyone outside the group anymore. I had either lost touch with everyone or recruited them. So you just get paralyzed. You know, you're just paralyzed with fear. So in 1981, I found out that my mother

was in the hospital back in Milwaukee and they didn't know what was wrong with her. So she borrowed money and she flew home. And it turned out my mother had a Leo Blastoma and they didn't know what was wrong with her. So she borrowed money and she flew home. And it turned out my mother had a glioblastoma brain tumor, and she probably has four to six months to live. So I was staying at my aunt's house and every day my leadership from the cult would call me and say, what's going on when you come back?

So I said, look, my mom has maybe four months to live. I'd like to to to to to to to to to to to th, and I'd to th, and I'd to th, and it th, and it th, and it th, and it, and it th like, and it th like, and it th like, and it to th, and it th like, and it th, and it th like, and it that, and it the, and it tho, and it tho, and it tho, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, th, th, th you come back. So I said, look, my mom has maybe four months to live. I'd like to ask for a leave of absence and stay here, you know, until she passes and then I'll come back. So she calls me back the next day. And she said, oh, well, we have a solution. Bring your mother out to California. And I'm like, huh? And she said, yeah, bring your mother the their tho tho tho tho tho tho tho th. th. th. th. th. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, tho, tho, thi. thi. tho, tho tho tho tho tho tho, tho. tho, tho. to me to me to me to me to me th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to th. to to to to to to to to to to to th. to th. th. to th. to to the. to to to me to me to to to to to to tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. I to to to to th. I to to California. And I'm like, huh? And she said, yeah, bring your mother out to California. You know, we'll tell one of your roommates to move out. She can live in your house. You can see her and take care of her. And I looked at the phone and I was like, oh, okay. Brought her out to California, set her up in my house, the bars in the bathroom, did all that. And then of course I'd go to to to to to th a th a thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi the thi thi, thi, the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, bring, bring, bring thi, bring thi, put bars in the bathroom, did all that. And then of course I'd go to work at 6 in the morning, so I'd go home and I have dinner with my mom for 45 minutes. And then one evening, Yanya came home and she opened the bedroom door. She was lying dead

on the floor, and I just lost it. I mean, I hadn't been able to say goodbye to her. I hadn't spent any time with her. I called my leadership and I said, my mom just died. I'm having the body sent home to Milwaukee. And she said on the other end of the line, well, you're not going to the funeral, are you? I said, yes, I am going to the funeral and I defied the organization for the first time. I borrowed

money again, I flew home. I somehow planned a funeral and a big dinner afterwards. But the pressure from the cult back home still got to her, and she left in the middle of the dinner. Fle back. I was told to come to a meeting the next the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thununununueuinal the funeral the funeral thuneruinal thuneral funueuinal thunnel the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the funeral the the the the the the th. And th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. I was. I was. the a the a the a the a the a the a the a the a the a the a the a the a and she left in the middle of the dinner. Flew back. I was told to come to a meeting the next day at 10, and of course, I was sitting in the big chair, and I was criticized for putting my mother ahead of the revolution. And with that defiance came consequences. Yanya was removed from all of her positions. And after that, I was in the living hell. I would wake up every morning and I'd go in the shower and I would cry and cry, because we weren't allowed to cry ever, no emotions.

And I'd cry and I'd get in my car, and I would just wish that I would get killed in a car accident because I couldn't see how to get out. I couldn't have figure out how to get out. So I lived like that for another five years, just like a walking nervous breakdown. And I wished I could figure out how to get the fuck out. Five years, five long years, Yanya stayed and played the part of dutiful communist with no clear vision on how to leave. But fortunately, ultimately the group imploded. What happened? Well the leader was out of the country, she was

starting to travel to Bulgaria a lot and while she was out of the country. She was starting to travel to Bulgaria a lot. And while she was out of the country, the inner circle just kind of broke. We called together the whole membership and said, this is fucked up. She doesn't write anything, everything in her name. We actually write, she's an alcoholic, blah, blah, blah. It took about a week to convince everybody that we were telling the truth. And so then it was just like a giant speaking bitterness, you know, for days. We meet in our print shop and people would just say, you know, how they never, their husband

was expelled, they never saw their husband again. They gave away their children. They sold their blood to have the money to pay for the newspapers. They, you the, you the, you their their their their, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, toda, today, today, today, today, today, today, today, their, their, their, their, their for the newspapers. You know, just these horror stories of how people were living. And then the night before she came back, we took a vote and we voted unanimously to expel her, and we voted unanimously to dissolve the organization. So the very next day, her bodyguard picked her up at the airport, brought her home.

We got rid of all the guns and the rottweiler guard dog. And a little team was the the was the was the was the was the the the was the was the the was their their their their their their theanor weiler Guard dog. And a little team was there to meet with her, and one of the people on the team wore a wire so that we could all hear what happened. And she walked in and sat down in her big chair and said, oh, what's the pawn on? And they were like, well, the party's over. It's like, they were trying trying her and she didn't get it. Well a crazy narcissist wouldn't. So she picked up a cigarette

and everybody just sat there. And then she realized nobody was getting up to light her cigarette. And then that's when she got it. And she threw the cigarette down and she started swearing, you know, you god-blah-blah-wha-whah. And that was it. It's a very unusual ending for a cult. It was August of 1987. A full 13 years after the founding of the group, or the cult. And we actually had our revolution, and we overthrew our leader, and we all got out. Like, oh my god, I've just been let out of prison, you know. And then I left for New York. She got a job at a publishing house working as a proofreader.

But the truth is, I wasn't really dealing with anything. I mean I was suicidal at times, deeply depressed, just terrified to ever do anything. Go anywhere. You know, I was 41 years old. I barely knew how to cross the street. But one night she was at work, proofreading a book about post-traumaticicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicic st. th. their. their, their, th. th. th. th. their. th. th. their, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, their, to, to, to, to to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the publishing, the publishing, the publishing, the publishing, the publishing, the publishing, the publishing, the publishing, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the their-a, their-I. their-I. their, their, their, their, their, barely knew how to cross the street. But one night she was at work, proofreading a book about post-traumatic stress disorder among Vietnam vets. And all of a sudden, I stopped reading and I was like, oh my God, this is what I'm going through.

And then, a couple days later, my boss, he looked at me and he said, you know, Yanya, you've been here six months now, and I've never seen you smile and I've never heard you laugh. Those two things combined made me realize I had to get into therapy. That there was stuff I needed to deal with. Right. I got this therapist who knew about cult after effects. It was absolutely brilliant, who literally saved my life, literally. Wow.

So I started trying to figure out, like, could we have been a cult if we were political? So I'd get these books and it would be all about religious cult. And I'd make these parallel lists. I'd say, okay, they had Jesus, we had Marx and Lenin. Okay, they had this, we had that, you know, and I said, yeah, we were called, we just called it something else, right? At the time, the idea that there could be a political cult was not a mainstream notion. There were a couple of kind of cult awareness organizations that had conferences and

I started going to those. I remember I gave the first talked ever on political cults. And I met a thucultha the the c we the the thu, we thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi-a thiolk the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. We just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just th. We were th. We were thi. We were thi. We were thi. We were thi. We had thi. We had thi. We had thi. We had theeeeeateateateeateeeateeateeateeateeeeeeat. We just called theateeateeate. We just called the. We just the. We gave the first talk ever on political cults and I met a therapist at a conference and we talked about writing a book together and so that was the book that came out in 94 which is captive hearts captive minds about recovery. The book was republished in 2006 under a new title Take Back Your Life. And the book really made a big impact. With her new passion ignited, Yanya was ready for more. I wanted to go to go to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to the to to the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the book. the book. the book. the book. the book. the the the the book really made a big impact. With her new passion ignited, Yanya was ready for more. I wanted to go to grad school. So in 1996, Yanya got her PhD. In what's called Human and Organizational Systems. And at the age of 55, she started teaching. I ended up getting a professorship at one of the state

universities in California in the sociology department. Now I have, let me just say something. I have a 3 o'clock, I'm sorry, I play cards with my 90 year old neighbors. That's so sweet. And they really look forward to it, yeah. Of course. No problem. We can pick up a different day. We can finish a different day. Is that all right? I mean, yeah. We can pick it up whenever. So while Jania plays cards with her neighbors, we are going to take a short break, but we will be right back. To hear Jania drop some knowledge about cults. Hello, how are you? Hello?

Oh, I'm okay. I'm glad it worked out. It's my birthday. Thank you. Shouldn't you be taking the day off or something? Not when I get to talk to you. Oh, please. Okay, well, we were kind of in the middle of a lot of stuff when we left off.

But I think we should start with, well, part of the reason of the show is sort of to debunk the myths, right, around cults. So why do you think cults are so misunderstood? Because people want to think that could never happen to them. So they want to distance themselves from it, right, and say, oh, you know, it's only crazy weird people who join cults. And th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. And, th, th, th. And, th, th. And, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thi. And who join cults. And that's actually not the case. The studies have shown that the people who get into cults typically do not have any kind of history of psychological disorders or mental illness background. Cults want high-functioning, smart, active, talented, creative people. Why?

Because they want you to run the businesses. They want you to recruit. They want you to bring in your contacts. They want you to be able to raise money. They want you to do things that will lend legitimacy to the group from the outside. And if there's any common denominator, it's idealism, right? It's people who want a better world, who want a better life for themselves. With that said, there are times in our lives where you might be a bit more susceptible. At transition moments, divorce, moving to a new town, graduating from school, starting over,

these moments of vulnerability, people are likely to come across something that seems interesting and also are, people are susceptible to the pressure from their friends. And more than two-thirds of the people in cults got recruited by a friend, a family member, or a co-worker. So it's much harder to say no to someone you know. And so once you take that first step, or goto that first meeting, they're going to be

there ready to take you to the next step, right? The cult recruiters are very good at what they do. So yeah, I think people really need to be on the alert. And how the recruitment process happens is also often misunderstood. I think sometimes people have this idea, like the cult gets you one day and already you're glassy-eyed and you're gone. And it doesn't work like that. It's a process. So recruitment is a process, indoctrination is a process. The whole idea of the indoctrination process is to attack yourself. It's to tear apart who you are. Any self-confidence, any sense of intuition, any critical thinking.

It all has to be torn apart, get you to doubt everything about yourself before you joined, and become in a sense completely dependent on what the cult is giving you, which is a new identity. And that identity becomes merged with the cult. They're basically doing social influence and social control. Things we're used to in our lives all the time. Social influence, right? We are more influenced by our peers than anything else after a certain age. You go to someone's house and all the shoes are at the front door, what do you do? Take off your shoes. Right. You may think it's stupid but you do it. So it's thi, so it's th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thethe shoes are at the front door, what do you do? Take off your shoes. Right. You may think it's stupid, but you do it. So it's those same

principles of social psychology that are at work. But of course, we're raised following rules, right? We have driving rules. We have rules when we go to school. We have the cop on the corner telling us what to do. We're taught to respect to respect to respect to respect to respect to respect to respect to respect to respect to respect to respect to respect their to respect their their to respect their to respect their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. their, their. their, their. their, their. their, their. their. their. their, their. their, their their their. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their their their. their telling us what to do, we're taught to respect authority, all those things come into play. Our brains are very malleable. What do you believe is the biggest myth out there around cults? I think the idea that cults aren't around anymore, you know, that that was something from the 70s and early 80s. Well, there's more cults today than ever before and the cults have mainstreamed th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. their th. th. th. th. th. th. their th. thi. thi. today. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thiolioli. thi. their thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their tell, tell, tell, tell, tell, tell, today, toe. toe. toea. today, today, toea. Wea. We're today, today, today, today, their today, their their t 80s, well there's more cults today than ever before and the cults have mainstreamed. They're everywhere. There's every type of cult from therapy cult to fitness to martial arts to political to new age to UFO, you know, you name it. There's a huge number of self-improvement cults today and certainly the multi-level marketing schemes. Oh yeah. It can be based around any idea, any theme, any ideology. If you look hard enough, you'll find a chocolate chip cookie called.

It doesn't have to do with a religious belief system at all. It has to do with an extreme ideology put forth by a narcissistic leader who's going to take advantage of you as his or her devotees, some of whom also have sadistic or psychopathic tendencies. They have an idea. They get one or two recruits. Those people go out and recruit more people. After a while, the cult leader doesn't really have to do much of anything. Their cult leaders are pretty lazy. If we think about the relationship with the cult leader as a charismatic relationship, charisma is actually an attribute that

you give to someone else, right? You decide that that person's charismatic, right? So right off the bat you have an imbalance of power in the relationship. And then secondly, you both have obligations. The charismatic one has the obligation to stay charismatic in your eyes, right? Your obligation is to completely express your devotion, your 100% loyalty, and you are to help spread the message about what an incredible, wonderful, creative, brilliant person this is, right? And so you do that by recruiting, by bringing people to see the guru and you'll tell everybody, we're all going to get in this room and the guru's going to come in and everybody's waiting, waiting,

finally the guru comes in and they tell you, and when he sits down, there's going to be a yellow halo around him and you're sitting there and you're like, what the fuck, I don't see a yellow halo, right? But everybody else is going, oh, ah, so you kind of go, oh, uh, and some people are going to go through that experience and they're going to leave, and other people are going to respond by what's called in psychology, the demand, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, thea, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and, and, and, and, and, and, thi, and, and, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, the f, the f, the f, the f, the f, the f, the f, the f, the f, the f, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, the f. f.fa, the f.fa, the f.fa, what, what, what, the f. the f. What, their, the demand expectation, right? They prime you for what to expect so that then you see it. So that charismatic relationship really wields a lot of power, especially when you're in a small group situation, right? Do you think cult leaders have any self-awareness or do you think they just believe their own bullshit to such a degree? This is a bit of a tricky question. I believe probably 98% of cult leaders are straight out con artists.

And start out that way. They're people who love power and they know they're taking advantage of people. And the more they see they can do, the more they try to get away with. And I think what may happen with some of the leaders is that over time, they do become delusional. Right. And they do believe their own story. They are narcissists to such a degree

that they do believe the world revolves around them. But then wrapped up in that is this desire to control and exploit. You know, if you think about all the people that we've talked to and done stories on in this podcast and the leaders that we've profiled, it really is easy to see the patterns that Janya is laying out. Yeah, the tactics of cults have been used for centuries. However, in this modern world, Liz, there seems to be a new tool for cult recruitment. And we're going to find out what that is after the break. What makes a cult a cult? What is the difference between a cult and just like a woman's group?

What is the difference between a cult and just like a woman's group? Well, a cult has to have certain features in order to earn that label. So for me, there needs to be an authoritarian leader who is usually considered charismatic, who was most likely narcissistic, and sometimes has psychopathic or sociopathic tendencies as well. That person comes up with an idea, some grandiose idea that he can save the world or offer

you a better life or take you to enlightenment, whatever it might be. And within that ideology or belief system is the requirement that you must go through a personal transformation that is basically shaping you to comply and conform and be the good follower. And so that transformation is then the indoctrination process or as I call it as a sociologist I call it a resocialization process, right? Right. You're going to go through some kind of training or lessons or whatever that is basically shaping you to comply and conform and be the good member, the good follower.

And then the final part of my definition is that there need to be what I call interlocking systems of influence and control. So the control mechanisms are the obvious kind of rules and regulations. It might be how you need to dress, how many children you should have or not have, whatever. But the other aspect of that is the systems of influence. Basic social psychology. it's getting you to respond to things you've always responded to, right? Guilt, shame, fear, love, all of those basic human emotions that get manipulated again to get you to conform and comply. The internet, I feel like, is a breeding ground. How prevalent are these internet groups rising today and how dangerous is that?

I mean, we've now got this new phenomenon of internet cults, you know, these amorphous communities where there's not a physical space, and we're seeing these new types of cultic formations that aren't what I now call the run-of-the-mill cults. You know, there was an obvious leader, there was an obvious the obvious the obvious the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the the internet the the internet the internet their the internet the internet their the internet their the internet their their the internet their their their their 't what I now call the run-of-the-mill cults. You know, there was an obvious leader, there was an obvious headquarters and centers around the world or whatever, but there was a physicality to it. Right. With what's happened over the last, say, four or five years, six years, whatever, and these groups like Q&O and on and some of this conspiracy stuff has absolutely mushroomed.

We also had four years of a president who basically trained us into this us versus them mentality. And it's sort of tipped over into anything. It's tipped over into the, you know, the recall vote for Governor Newsom here in California. It's the anti-vax movement. It's the people who wantx movement. It's the people who want to go after the Black Lives Matter movement. It's obviously Q&N and the deep state, all of that. They are able to build these online communities where people absolutely feel connected to something and are getting that same sense of purpose and meaning as you would have

in a physical cult, five years ago, ten years ago. There's maybe not even one leader you can point to. It's almost like the ideas are the leader. And then there's kind of these different spokespeople who are sending out this misinformation or disinformation, like some of the TV networks and certainly the radio, some of the talk radio. What really added to it, of course, was the pandemic. A lot of people fell down rabbit holes, so to speak, and people are, in a sense, desperate. Right.

They don't know how to evaluate information. And then somebody comes along and says, hey, I've got the answer. You know, there's a deep state and they're, you know, eating babies in a pizza parlor. And it basically bolstered so many hate groups. I include the white supremacists and the armed survivalists and patriot boys or whatever they're called, right? But now they have a platform and they have the recognition of top leaders, and so that has, of course, helped them recruit. Right.

I think it's going to take a long time for us to heal the country again and recover from that. Well on that note, it ended up being a lot of right-wing cults that came up. Do you think the left also had a reaction to that and have some left-wing cults have presented from that as well? There still are a number of sort of Marxist-Leninist groups left over from when my group was around, left over from the 70s and 80s, but for the most part, I haven't heard of much. There are the anarchists, the crazy anarchists who wear all black and come and bust everything up, and they've been doing that forever, and it's unfortunate. You know, the left, I have to say to say, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, to say, to say, to say, the to say, the the to say, the the to say, the the the the the the the the the to say, the the the the the the the the the the, sort, sort, sort, thi, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, the the the the the the the the the the the the they've been doing that forever and it's unfortunate. You know, the left, I have to say and I'm sorry, the left has just never been very good

at getting it self-organized. To be fair, one has to clarify that there are extremists and cult-like behaviors and groups on each side of the political aisle. Politics for many is akin to religion. And where you find extreme beliefs, you will often find cult-like behavior. Because extreme beliefs often come with absolutism, which is the antithesis of critical thought and varied opinions. Two things cults work hard to rid you of. So can you just enlighten us a little bit on the notion of one-on-one cults and family

cults? Both of those are really prevalent. It's basically, you know, being in a relationship with a narcissist, and narcissistic relationships can go very awry and can be very traumatic. And similarly, in families where you have a narcissistic parent. And the kind of trauma that people experience from those relationships is absolutely the same as if they were in a group cult. And it's, you know, it's very hard to break away from.

You know, something that bothers me is a question often is to those who have been in cults is, well, why don't you just leave? You know, I feel that that that question is used too o'er. you just leave? You know I feel that that question is used too often and it's too much of an over-simplistic question. You've been in an abusive relationship, well why didn't you just leave? Right, you have a shitty boss? Why did you keep working there? I just don't like where you live? You should just pack up and leave. Why do you think that the question, why didn't you leave is so damaging? Because it's a lack of knowledge or a complete denial of

the concept of coercion and how coercion is used to get people to do what they ordinarily wouldn't do and how coercion is used to push people down and keep them from fighting back or speaking out. And so we really need to get people to really understand how subtle coercion can be. You know, think about when you go shopping and you try on a pair of shoes and the shoes don't really fit, but everybody's telling you how wonderful they look,

and oh yeah, they fit. And don't worry, they'll stretch a little bit. And you get kind of pushed into buying these things, and then and th and th and th and th and th and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and then, and thin, and then, and then, and then, and thin, and thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, th, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thinthese things and then you get home and you say, why in the hell did I do that, right? It's because you were pressured, right? I mean, that's a simple everyday example. We experience this every day of our lives, you know, from kids on, that's why when we get into these groups, we don't realize how we're being pressured because it seems normal. It's not until you're perhaps in way too deep that you realize, oh boy, this is a mistake, and then it's much harder to get out. But thankfully, people actually do get out. They do, however, sometimes people have a hard time admitting that this group that they were a part of was, in fact a cult. It happens all the time.

They don't want to admit they were wrong. They don't want to admit they've been duped and conned. And it's unfortunate because at some point, nine times out of ten, it's going to come back to bite them. Right. Because we'll either join another cult. Yeah, they'll become a cult hopper. understand what happened and how it works. I kind of say to people, depending on the length of your experience and the extent of your experience, the role you had in the group, you know, it's usually at least a good five years before you

kind of know who you are again. And when do you feel like you sort of got your, your mind back, you said, okay this is me, this is who I am. I guess by the mid-90s, there was still always stuff to deal with. You know, this stuff goes really deep. So yeah, I'd say, you know, it was about 10 years. And there's still remnants. I mean, there's still stuff, you know, like, I still have dreams sometimes about the cult, you know. Ten years. She spent over ten years living in the cult, and then another ten years,

deprogramming all that abuse and damage. Most of the things in these environments are abusive or toxic, but if you had to sort of look at the best thing that came out of this environment, what's your experience of that? Well, I guess for me, the best the best the the the best the best the best the the the best the best the best the is the best the best the is the best the best the is the is the best the is the is the is the is thease thiastensensensea' thiaeseses thia' thia' theensensens the the the the the the the the the the the the.. the. the. the. the. the. if you had to sort of look at the best thing that came out of this environment, what's your experience of that? Well, I guess for me the best thing was learning about publishing. I'd always wanted to be a writer, and so it expanded my knowledge of that industry, but I would rather have learned it another way. Right. If I had to do it over, I would not do it. And while the cult may have taken up a sizable portion of her life, she seems to have made up for the lost time.

Just tell us all the things you're up to today. So I retired from the university, I guess three years ago now. Do you miss teaching at the university? Not at all. No. I mean, I miss teaching at the university? Not at all. No. No. I mean, I miss the students. It's a lot of work. I hated grading papers and giving exams, and I hated all the administrative bullshit.

But, you know, I love teaching. She may be retired, but Yanya's busier than ever. Highly in demand with media appearances, as well as doing a ton of interviews and working on her memoir. And still enjoying the success of her most recent book release. Entitled Escaping Utopia. Which was the study of people who were born or raised in occult and I interviewed like 69 different groups. A lot of people referenced that book actually that helped them get out, saved their life. Great. So you are doing really good things.

That's great, thank you. But I do think it's interesting you sort of set out to have, for the revolution, but you are sort of in a revolution. It just doesn't look like that, right? I guess. I mean, that's one way to look thiaeeeck. thiiiiiiiiiiiiii. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. thi. th. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th.. th. th....................................................................................................that's one way to look at it. You're helping a lot of people and saving the world in some capacity. Well, thanks. And we'll just look out for your memoir whenever. Yeah, it's a wild one. Thank you for all your time. This was incredibly helpful. All right, thank you. Okay. Have a good day. You too. Talk to you soon.

Chow. Wow. Wow, what an honor. Thank you, Yanya, for taking the time to share your personal story. And your enlightening expertise. We hope everyone listening had at least one takeaway from today's episode. And if you did, we'd love to hear what it is. Feel free to reach out to us guys. We love hearing from you. You can email us at info at was I an occult.com. Diem us on the old gram at was I an occult? And also if you or someone you know had a cult experience and you'd like your story to be heard on the show please show, please reach out. Our email again is info at was I in a cult.com. Now, next

week's episode is a very special one because you will hear the story of two people who were in an acting cult. She sits on a chair a throne with a shawl wrapped around herself like she's been studying at the foot of the Buddha when she just like ordered this shawl on Amazon. And her little dogs on her lap or circling around her and then the rest of us sit on the floor before her. There's incense burning, there's flowers all laid around. She is creating the visual and sensory experience of being in front of some enlightened person. That's right you guys. we're going to find out more about the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little the the the the the the the the the the toolal.augl.al.al. And theyl. And. And theyl. And theyl. And theyl. And their little little little little little little little their their the visual and sensory experience of being in front of some enlightened

person. That's right you guys we're going to find out more about the cult I was suckered into. Also if you're interested Liz and I were guests on the wonderful podcast stuff they don't want you to know. And if you don't listen to that show you should because you want to know what they don't want you to know and you can find a link in our show notes. And if you love us and this show, we need your help. I know how cult leadery of us. We knew it would come to this eventually.

You guys did too. We became cult leaders. Look, it is true. In order to continue making the show the show the show the show the show the show the show the show the show the show, the show, the show, the show, the show, the show, the show, the show, the show, the show, the show, to to to to to, to, to to to be, to be, to, to, to be. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to. to. to. to. to, to. to, to, to, to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, the the to. And, to. And, to. And, toooo. And, tooooooo. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, to. show at the level it demands, we do need your support. So we're just putting it out there to consider a small one-time or monthly contribution to this show so that you can keep getting the stories you love by helping us afford to keep making them. So head on over to our Patreon page for more information. Or visit our website at wasainaCult.com and you'll get all the info you need right there. Was I an occult is story produced and written by me Tyler Miesim and me, the executive producer is

my occult Howard and our newly promoted supervising producer is Ari Beasiel. Congratulations Ari or as Tyler likes to call you air. Audio engineer. That's the same old guy, Chandler May's home, huh? Somehow, Chandler, bar, bar, bar. And our fan of the week comes from Twitter, and she has the handle at Soft Black Girls. Thank you for spreading the love, we appreciate you. And thank you for listening and spreading the love, everyone. Thank you guys. See you next week. See you soon.

Chow for now. Say a lot of suckers. Kisses on your face. But not on your lips, because that's weird. Yeah, that's sooner than a pandemic after all. Just a double-cheek kiss, like a good old Italian and grandma. Ha-haired. Purify me. Don't spare my life. Crucify me.