Was I In A Cult? - Jehovah’s Witnesses: “Shut Up and Be Blessed“

Episode Date: September 29, 2021

With rockstar aspirations, Daniel O'Brien wasn't looking for anything but a good time. But when heartbreak rocked his world, he tripped into something that lifted his spirits and rallied his hopes - the Jehovah's Witnesses.   Before he knew it, Daniel had traded his guitar for a green Bible and found himself rapidly rising through the ranks of the religion. A wife, and two kids later, he was a fully indoctrinated, high ranking Elder in the church. But when Daniel realizes that he's part of a life much different than the one he originally signed up for, he knows that he must leave.   The only problem is... he can't.  ___   If you, or anyone you know has ever been in a cult, please email us at [e-mail], we'd love to hear from you. Your story could be featured in a future episode... Please support Was I In A Cult? Through Patreon

Hey everyone, this is Tyler and Liz. What up y'all? Before we get to the story, we wanted to let you know that this episode won a 2021 Webby Award in the best interview slash talk show category. That is called bragging, everybody. That is not called humble bragging. We got some hardware and we want to show it off. We did. And for those of you that don't know what a webby award is, it's sort of like the golden globes of the internet. Yep, our name was right up there in lights with the

best of them. Right next to the teacher mother how to twoerk YouTube video. That's a different and better category than ours Liz. True, much more highbrow. We got some interesting-looking trophies guys and we got two of them because we also won the audience award. So thank you to whomever voted. We appreciate it. Yes, thank you everyone for voting. And if you want to do more than just vote for us, we could actually use your assistance. In order to keep making these episodes, your support is invaluable.

Consider it a charity donation, if you will. And to some extent, I'd say it is. Yeah, you see, over the past year, we have received many, many emails from people who say that this show has helped them recognize and reconcile their own cultic experiences. We recently heard from a man who left Scientology, the cult of all cults,

because he listened to our show and recognized that he was in a cult. So in an effort for us to continue to be able to make this show, which in turn, does do some good to shed some light on all the corrupt, manipulative, sociopathic narcissists of the world. Say that seven times fast. Please, please consider coming aboard our Little Cult by contributing to our Patreon page.

Yes, you can find a link in the show notes. Or go to our website at Wazana Cult.com, find a link right there. And if you choose to just keep chopping on Cheetos and cruise down the highway forwarding through this plea, we totally get it and we still love you. We sure do. And now, on with the show. Did I mention it won a Webby? I didn't hear you say that, no. It did. It won two Webbies.

Anyways, you should listen to it. It's really good. I will get on that. We come from hundreds of ethnic and language backgrounds, yet we are united by common goals. Above all, we want to honor Jehovah, the God of the Bible and the creator of all things. We do our best to imitate Jesus Christ and are proud to be called Christians. Because we witness or talk about Jehovah God and His Kingdom, we are known as Jehovah's Witnesses. That passage was pulled directly from the homepage of the Jehovah's Witnesses website,

J.W.org. So in your experience and point of you what distinguishes Jehovah Witnesses as a church or an organized religion I should say versus a cult? That's a really interesting question. No one joins a cult. Right. Right. Who would knowingly join a cult? Hey we have a cult? Right. Nobody joins a cult. You join a movement. Something you think is going to make the world better and make you a better person? Right. Right. Right. Right. Come to get a cult. Right. Nobody joins a cult. You join a movement.

Something you think is going to make their mind. Crucify. This is, was I in a cult? I'm your host, Tyler Miesum. And I'm equally your host, Liz Ayakuzzi. You know Liz, I don't know if you're really equal. I mean, if you're getting 80 cents to my dollar. That's what they call equal rights in our country, Tyler. Come on, Liz. Have you been living in a hole. tholololol. thol. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. th. th. th. th. thi. th. th. th. thi. thi, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I thi, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I th. I th. I th. I th. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. I thi. getting 80 cents to my dollar. That's what they call equal rights in our country, Tyler. Come on, Liz.

Have you been living in a hole? Or living in a cold? Living in a hole? We've reached equality, sister. Oh right. In 2021, I now get to get me to the te. twenty-two cents to your dollar. twenty-twenty-one is tode. thoo-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-oo-o-o-oooooo. tho. tho. tho. tho. th-o. th-o. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho, is th. that... You're my assistant? Now get me my coffee and tell us who today's guest is. Yes ma'am. Today we are talking to a

gentleman by the name of Daniel O'Brien, an ex-Jova's witness and me I personally love this story. That little man crush on him, don't you? I mean he's just so darn vulnerable. Take it away, Daniel. More like take it away from us. Please. I'm Daniel O'Brien. I'm here to tell my story, the journey of joining a cult, being in the cult, not knowing it's a cult, finding out that it is a cult, and then trying to figure out how the hell to get out.

I was born in Beverly Hills. My father was raised as Irish Catholic. My dad left the church, became an atheist. My mom was sort of a new age hippie kind of spiritual person, but we never went to church. Well, even as a young child, I remember the witnesses would come by and I was probably eight or nine. They left off some small book.

My mom took it and threw it away and that made an impression. You know, oh, I want to know what that was. But it was a fleeting thought, because as Daniel got a bit older, his desire shifted to a much more grounded reality. I had visions of being a rock star. I was a guitarist and music was probably going to be my biggest passion. This was 1978 after all, how could anyone not want to be a rock star? You'd be the one to know, Tyler.

I wasn't born yet. Yeah, millennial. And these two girls came by, and they were cute. Frankly, I would have talked to them about anything. They're standing on the porch and we just had a doorway conversation. So, to me, the doctrine of Hellfire always seemed illogical. If God is supposed to be love, then why would he torture people forever? So when they said, we don't believe in Hellfire, it's like, okay, that checked a box for

me. I do know the thing that really resonated with me were those ideas of an end to injustice, peace on earth, no more war. They even said, you could live forever in Paradise Earth. I know I didn't buy that right away, but it's like, well, that sounds interesting. Because the pitch for a cult is usually quite positive. You know, we want to better ourselves and better the world. Who doesn't want to do that?

I don't know. I don't know. Ashawls, con artist. their friend, Steve is not real. Can we get back to Daniel, please, thusesesese. thuse. thuse. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to. to, th. thi, thi, th. thi, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to, to. to. to, to. to. to. to. to, to. to, to. to, to, to, to, to, to, to to to to to to to to t. to tod to to too. too. too. toee. too. toe. toe. toe. toda. toda. today, t Can we get back to Daniel, please? Yes. They talked about an international brotherhood of peace, and that really appealed to me. So I agreed to what witnesses call a study,

and they sent a man over. His name was Bob, and Bob was Daniel's primary recruiter, sent to start the indoctrination process. A study is more or less the Jehovah's Witnesses equivalent to a traditional Bible study, but with a Bible that was quite different from any Daniel had ever seen before. It was different because it was green, and it didn't say Bible on it. It said, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, and it had this scrolly text. It was intriguing. So one time, he just said, let's thiiii thi thi the let the let the let th scrawly text. It was intriguing. So one time he just said, let's go to the Kingdom Hall. He had keys to it. The Kingdom Hall is their version of a church or

synagogue. Today there are over 105,000 active Kingdom Halls worldwide. We went inside. What struck me was there were no religious symbols or icons. No crosses, no images of Jesus Christ or anything. You won't find any religious symbols because witnesses don't believe in idolatry. Kingdom halls mostly resemble traditional lecture halls in an effort to promote functionality over decor. Of course Bob was spinning this. Our meetings aren't like a lecture or a sermon. It's more like a classroom. With my interest in education and my curiosity, I liked that. And so, slightly intrigued, Daniel dipped his toes in. So first you go

to one meeting, and it's like, this is a little strange. But aside from cosmetic peculiarities, Daniel experienced more subtle oddities as well. One of them was the love bombing. Uh, love bombing? Okay, well, you know when you first start dating someone, and on like the third date, she's like, Tyler, like, I thought you only lived in my dreams, but like you're actually here and you're human.

Nope, no one's ever said that to me, Liz. She showers you with gifts, compliments you, tells you you're the one after the first time you sleep together. These are all examples of love bombing, huge red flags. Sure, I mean, but that's a romantic relationship, Liz. What does this have to do with cults? Cults love bomb too. Anyone can technically love bomb, but it's most commonly a symptom of narcissistic personality disorder, which arguably all cult leaders have. Abusive relationships most always start with love bombing. You walk in and there are people who you don't know, and it's like, oh, we're so glad to see you here.

You don't even know me. How could you be glad to see me here? That kind of turned me off. But why is that a red flag? I mean, it just sounds like somebody really likes me. What's wrong with that? Because? Because? Because it that? Because it isn't real. It's just a tactic to get you, a way to make you feel dependent on the love bomber. It's a very dangerous form of emotional abuse because once they have you, they start to devalue

you. It's a cycle. I idealize you, put you on a pedestal. Once they have you, they break you down. the love bombing. the way. they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have the the their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. It's a their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to. t. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. th. th. th. th. th. the th. the the th. th. to way to control you. Keep you always second-guessing yourself. But Daniel said he was turned off by the love bombing. Yes, he was, but yet he kept going to services. Then something happened that put Daniel into a vulnerable state. Which is right where the cult wants you to be. The girl I was dating at the time, we were pretty serious. She ended up cheating on me, and that was emotionally devastating. That was what flipped the switch and that's when I started taking the religion seriously. It was the perfect storm. People are more susceptible to cults when going through a big life change, like a big move or a divorce, losing a job.

Yeah because when you're going through a life change it temporarilyarily leaves you in a highly vulnerable state. Therefore you're going through a life change, it temporarily leaves you in a highly vulnerable state. Therefore, you're much more willing to turn to someone or something to help you get out of that vulnerable state. So for Daniel, heartbreak was the thing that sent him deeper into the religion, searching for answers to help mend his pain. So it was in 1984 at Dodger Stadium that I was baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. At the very young age of 23. From Israelis' 1971, you know, close to 50,000 members would gather at Dodger Stadium

to witness the baptism, literally they were watching. I get it. You're using it for witnesses. God, they would witness. You're overselling. Sorry, they would witness the baptism of about 1,500 new members and ministers. Yeah, in fact, two huge portable pools were set up right on the field for the event. And after the baptisms, they'd celebrate with a huge group pool party. Of course it was BYOB.B.B. B. Bringb. Bringb. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. that is that is that is. B. that is. that is. that is. B. th. that is. that is. that is. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. Of course it was BYOB. Bring your own Bible!

Green Bible, that is. Bitches! All right, so Daniel had a new religion, and life assuredly is just going to get better. Right? Right, Liz? So now Daniel is baptized and heartbroken. So now Daniel is baptized and heartbroken. A lethal combination.

However, the dogma of his new church begins to lift his spirits. It was feeling part of something, feeling like you're making a difference in the world, witnesses had a lot of meetings. Five meetings a week, two of them were back to back. On Sunday, there would be what's called a public talk. That would be followed by the Watchtower study, where the congregation participated in the indoctrination session. Then they would have what's called a book study, midweek, and that was in someone's

home. They also midweek had another pair of meetings, the so-called service meeting and Theocratic Ministry School paired with that service meeting. Saturday morning's knocking on door, Sunday morning meetings. And with that many meetings a week, it's no surprise he started to conform. No one really had to say anything to me.

You look at the pictures in their publications. It was very noticeable the difference in their dress and their grooming and hairstyles. And so I started making these changes. I was still playing in bands. I had long hair. I was a rocker. As time went on, I started cutting my hair shorter. Long hair was a no-no in the church, as wore beards. Your flowing locks would have to go, Tyler. Sigh. You never had a beard for a dumb reason that goes back about a hundred years to one of their

early leaders who apparently couldn't grow a beard and was jealous of his predecessor's beard. Beard envy? Witnesses don't have beards. The Jehovah's Witnesses were started by a man named Charles Tays Russell, also known as Pastor Russell. He was an American Christian restorationist minister from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. What's a Christian restorationist? I mean, it's exactly what it sounds like. A belief that Christianity should be restored to its purest forms.

That's today's dose of irony for you. Pastor Russell founded what is now known as the Bible Study Movement. restored to its purest forms. That's today's dose of irony for you. Pastor Russell founded what is now known as the Bible Study Movement. And after he died in 1916, Jehovah's Witnesses developed from this movement. He was convinced the end times would come in 1914. A hundred and six years later, we know that's not true. The church is a basic Christian faith with standard Christian beliefs. The basic one is there is one true God, Jehovah.

Some people say it probably should be pronounced Yahweh. They don't believe in the Trinity. They believe Jesus did come to earth. He did all the things that are in the Gospels and that he died as a ransom sacrifice for our sins that we could have everlasting life. But they also believe that heaven is like a hot new dance club with limited capacity. Some few people, 144,000, will have the opportunity to go and to reign in heaven with Christ. Ah, there it is. The ubiquitous chosen one theory that's part of every cult stogma. It's a field day for the ego. I choose you Tyler.. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, theeeeeeee thi, thi, the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the ubiquitous chosen one theory that's part of every cult's dogma. It's a field day for the ego.

I choose you, Tyler. I do not choose your friend Steve, but I do choose you. Interestingly, some of them could be women. Because once they die and are transformed, they are like angels, whatever that means, but now they're sexless and don't have a penis or a vagina, it doesn't matter. Make, make, make, make, make, make, make, make, make, make. Make, make. Make, make. Make, make. Make. Make. Make. Make. Make. Make. Make. Make. Make. Make. Make. Make. Make that, make that, make that, make that, make that, make that, make that, make that, make thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. their, their, their, their, their, their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. the the the the the the their, their, a vagina, it doesn't matter. Make of that what you will. Just a bunch of winged Barbie and Kendall's flying around. Yep, that's the Jehovah Witness Heaven. But it doesn't take much to get kicked out.

If a person commits a sin, quote unquote, and the elders find out about it, that person will be disfellowshipped. There will be a quick announcement by one of the elders to the congregation. As that switch gets flipped, suddenly all your family, all your former friends will not talk to you. It's devastating emotionally as you can imagine. So in order to avoid the painful existence where his loved ones turned on him, he committed to a sin-free life. You can get kicked out for smoking, for being drunk, engaging in pornography, for having premarital sex. The list is long. It's many pages. If you join the

military, if you celebrate holidays, witnesses don't celebrate birthdays, by the way, if you owned a gun, if you practice martial arts, if you went to another religious service, you would get kicked out. You were forbidden to go on the internet except for the Watchtower official site. Oh, you can't watch our rated movies. And you can't listen to rock on the internet except for the Watchtower official site. Oh, you can't watch R-Aidat movies. And you can't listen to rock and roll. I did purge some of my Black Sabbath albums, but I kept all of my Led Zeppelin albums. I just wasn't going to get rid of those. Smart move. I myself would trade eternal salvation for the Houses of the Holy Album. And like many cults, Daniel felt the pressure to isolate isolate to r r r r ri ri ri rii ri. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to salvation for the houses of the holy album. And like many cults, Daniel felt the pressure to isolate, and he would only mingle with

those of his own faith. You're discouraged from forming friendships outside of that. They're part of Satan's world. And I don't know if you're aware of this, but Jova's witnesses are very anti-education. Extremely anti-education, extremely anti-education. They say things like, this is Satan's system of things, Satan runs everything except for their religion. As you can imagine, with their anti-education stance, a lot of witnesses are not very educated.

And I have nothing against most individual witnesses. They're just good, honest, decent people who joined a movement, something that they thought was going to make the world a better place, but they lost all their critical thinking skills, and very few of them are highly educated. When Daniel first got involved, he was going to college, which meant that he was breaking the rules. So I couldn't go to school. But cults will find a way to manipulate you one way th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th he was breaking the rules. So I couldn't go to school.

But cults will find a way to manipulate you one way or another, and one way they do that is by playing into your interests. You see the witnesses have a ministry school that taught the tenants of the faith. And some of the people in the church knew Daniels' desire for education and to be a teacher. So... When I was asked if I would like like Daniel Daniel Daniel Daniel Daniel to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to tho. to tho. tho. tho. tho. the the the the. the. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho tho the the the the the the the the the the the the th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to to to to to to tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. the the the I was asked if I would like to conduct the school, I jumped at the opportunity and I tried to make it a school. And by that he means he tried to teach with constructive criticism. But as time went on, the Watchtower leadership changed some of the rules and they made it less and less like a school. Daniel is referring to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, which is a non-profit corporation that is essentially Jehovah's Witnesses headquarters. It's located in Warwick, New York. The Society, as members call it, is used to support the church's worldwide work, which includes publishing Bibles and magazines such as Awake and The Watchtower.

Full name, the Watch Tower announcing Jehovah's Kingdom. Full name, the Watchtower announcing Jehovah's Kingdom. That rolls off the tongue. The society is members by way of invite only. And the members assist the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses. And like many cults, there is a hierarchy within this governing body. Jehovah Witnesses founder, Charles Tays Russell, died in 1916. But that doesn't mean his dogma doesn't live on.

If we had to assign a cult leader to this particular group today, it would collectively be the leaders at the watchtower. As they have the power to reform the rules. For instance, you used to be able to tell somebody if there was something they needed to work on, some public speaking technique like using illustrations or following an outline that was coherent. They started taking those things away and said, you know what, you can't tell anybody they need to work on anything anymore. Which was extremely frustrating to Daniel because essentially he wasn't doing any teaching.

He was just placating because in reality the school wasn't a place to further indoctrinate people. And what exactly did the school claim to toach, Liz? I was curious about that too Tyler, so I went on their website. And this is what's written verbatim about becoming a student at the school. Okay. With a view to helping you improve in your ability to use your God-given gifts to praise Jehovah, we welcome you as a student in the Theocratic Ministry School. As you participate, you will be helped to cultivate such valuable skills as personal reading, listening, and remembering, studying, doing research, analyzing, and organizing,

conversing, answering, answering questions, and putting thoughts down in writing. I am going to take every one of those classes because I need to improve my personal reading. I need to improve my remembering skills. This next section really brings it home. Bring it home. Yeah. Make wise use of this textbook titled, Benefit from Theocratic Ministry School Education. That is a Chinese translation. That's a real title. It's a real title. It's a real the ti. It's a ti. It's a ti. It's a ti. It's a ti. It's a ti. It's a ti. It's a ti. It's a ti. It's a ti. It's a ti. It's a to. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. I. I their the the the the the the the. the the the the the. the the. I the. I to to to to to to to to to to to to to not a Chinese translation. That's a real title. It's a real title. Okay. Then it says, this textbook is also a workbook. When you read in it, important points that you feel will help you underline them. Yep. Well now I understand why witnesses condemn proper education. I mean, God forbid they learn how to write good, der. Derek Zoolander would really appreciate this school.

Just learn how to write gooder. All right, so back to Daniel. Yes, he was given a position at this school. Of course, it's something that only men can do in the religion. Women can have no position of authority or what they would call even teaching. Oh really? I was going to say that it sounds like a woman wrote that inspiring copy. Oh no Liz. That was a man who wrote those transformational words. Surprising. Also surprising or not. Is the rampant misogyny inherent in the religion?

As Daniel said, it's a patriarchal environment, and the watch tower quotes directly from First Corinthians, Chapter 11, verse 3, the head of every man is the Christ. The head of every woman is a man. Finally, someone said what we've always been thinking. Never had the guts to say out loud. So they have all these strange rules, you know, about head coverings and it's just really bizarre. And yes, women do have to be okay with it, although often they're not. Sadly a common thread of many cults is that women are often left powerless and are somehow

manipulated to fit an antiquated wildly sexist point of view of how women should exist. Which of course is in the kitchen. Right, of course. Daniel was running the school, but naturally he wasn't being paid to run the school. So he had to make a living somehow. During that time, I started my own music production business and started writing music commercially, did a few low-budget films, worked for CBS for a couple

of years. You'll tell your age if you remember Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman, so I did music for that TV show, and that actually made me quite a bit of money. You couldn't turn on CBS without hearing music that I either wrote, produced, or all of the above. And it's like, yes, I love this. But I got a lot of pressure because the cult is always promoting, you just need to serve Jehovah, go to the meetings, pray more, read the Bible, go what they call witnessing, going door to door, proselytizing.

So I got all this negative pressure. Okay, to recap, outside world, bad, inside world, good. But Daniel kept his faith at full tilt. Despite his secret pension for listening to when the levy breaks. And he started to garner the attention of some of the leaders. You get just pulled in further and further and in 91 of August. Two elders pulled me aside and said, we had a meeting and your name came up and it was recommended for you to be an elder. Elders are overseers within the congregation,

and as Daniel mentioned, it's an appointed position, creating a false sense of honor. Becoming an elder just gets you in deeper and deeper, moving you further away from the life you once knew. And it just each step of your life. You're going to five meanings a week, conducting the Theocratic Ministry School, I had to read all the curriculum and all the points of counsel. I was also the person who arranged the public speakers

that would come in every Sunday. You're supposed to study with your wife. You're supposed to go knock on doors at least 10 hours a month. from you. And then an auspicious moment happened that would seal Daniel's fate, whether he wanted it to or not. I met a young woman. We dated, fell in love, since premarital sexes and no-no, and you're young and horny and you want to move things along quickly. We met in May, we're engaged in August, and married by February.

We had our first son in 1991 and our second, three years later. We had these exquisite kids and you get all dressed up, you go to the meetings, people always point us out as an example not knowing the real serious problems we had. The whole time we were married, Tracy dealt with debilitating depression. She was raised in this religion and that really no doubt is the cause of her depression. She would not get help for it because witnesses not only are anti-education, they're anti-psychologists or psychiatrists or any kind of mental health professional, if you think every bad person is going to die at Armageddon, which in witness theology is 99.9% of the earth's population, and you

know that deep down you're not the good witness that you could and should be, you think you're going to die at Armageddon too. And so, Tracy she always thought, if Armageddon came today, she's probably dead. And I think many, many witnesses suffer from that. But that's the way that cults like to control people. You're never good enough. Despite his many time sucking responsibilities at the congregation, along with raising two kids, Daniel still had to make a living. And since he couldn't make music any longer,

I taught film scoring. I was also an editor for a now-defunct film music magazine. I started actually teaching at a local elementary school. I was the band director. But despite his hard work ethic, six part-time jobs, and I wasn't making enough money, I was going crazy. So I opened a music store, we bought and sold, new and used instruments. It was pretty great.

When things fell into place to open that store, I thought, Jehovah's Blessing me. I'm the golden child, right? God was blessing me blessing blessing blessing blessing blessing blessing blessing blessing blessing blessing blessing blessing blessing blessing blessing blessing blessing blessing blessing me me me me me me me me me me me. I working working th story, I thought, Jehovah's Blessing Me, I'm the Golden Child, right? God was blessing me. I've working hard, things are falling out of place. But Jehovah, or Yahweh, wasn't just going to keep this lucky street going now, was he? The two best days of your life for the day you open the business and the day you close it. The writing was on the wall, that business was going that, to that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, the the business was going the business was going that, that, the business, the business was going, the business was going the business, the business, the business, was the business, was to be to be to be to be to be to be to be, was going, was going, was going. Wea, was going, was going, was going, was going, was going, was going, was going, was going, was going, was going. And, was going, was going. And, was going. And, was going. And, the business was the business was the business was the business was the business was the business was going, the business, the business, the business, the business, the business, to be to be to be to be too, to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be the business, the business, the business, the business, the business was going to close and we were going to go bankrupt. And that's when Daniel first began to question things. That was kind of a crisis of faith. Like what? What did I do wrong?

Well, Jehovah wasn't blessed me in the first place and I didn't do anything wrong. That's just life, right? It now gave me time to finally go to college and get my teaching credential. And this was the biggest gift he could give himself. thi, th. And, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, that that that th, that that that th, that that that th, that that that that that that that that that's, that's, thi, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, that's, that's, that's, that's th, that's thi, that's thi, that's that's that's thi, that's that's that's that's thi. And, that's that's that's thi. And, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to college and get my teaching credential. And this was the biggest gift he could give himself, because while he was at school, he started learning about his religion. And I started finding out a lot of things that were really mind-blowing. He discovered that the founder of Jehovah's Witnesses, Charles Taze Russell, had purchased dilapidated buildings in Brooklyn in the late 1800s. The leadership had held onto these properties for over 100 years, but... They sold them all a few years ago for billions.

And as most people know, religious organizations don't have to pay taxes. They've built a compound for the people who are the leadership now, and they're all living in upstate New York, like kings in this palatial compound. And technically, every local kingdom hall around the world, the main organization owns that property. So it's a huge real estate business. It's big money. But there were more issues to be discovered that, let's just say, were a bit darker than

simply real estate. In kind of the late 80s, when it was coming out about the Catholic Church, I remember we would wag our fingers and click our tongues and we would say, aren't we glad we're not like them? Well, it's sort of coming out that the organization has a very large problem with pedophiles in their ranks. A few years ago, there was a commission, a royal commission in Australia, and they found that over a 60-year period, there had been in the files, in the congregation files of Jehovah's Witnesses, over a thousand people

who had been identified as pedophiles and abusing members of the congregation. Of that over a thousand individuals, guess how many were reported to the authorities by the congregation? Zero. Not one. Not one. Because it will bring shame and reproach on the organization,

the elders are instructed to do things to cover it up. I have a number of regrets about being in this organization, but I'm glad to say that isn't one of them. I never was involved in any of those situations. And the more I found out, it's like, this religion is not what it claims to be. It is not the true religion. But it takes time for the awakening to happen. After all, he had been in for 16 years at this point. So he kept up his elderly duties. And then... One day I'm out in the witnessing work, as they call it, and there was an older woman in the congregation and

she had two kids at the time and totally unsolicited out of the blue, she says, Danny, if I have to step over my daughter's dead body at Armageddon to get into paradise, I will step on her. And I remember thinking at that time, I'm in a fucking cult. There it is, his aha moment, the point of no return. You would think, but his family and entire life was all about Jehovah, so... You know, you stuff those feelings away. But, one day, shortly thereafter, Daniel's wife showed him a decades-old article from

a witness magazine, ironically titled, Awake. Awake! Ding ding, ding! For those who care, the May 22nd, 1969 awake, the title of the article is What Future for the Young. And here's the quote that she shared with me. If you were a young person, you need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. You'll never graduate high school.

You'll never go to college. You'll never have a career. You'll never have children because Armageddon's coming and you're going to survive it, and you're going to live forever on Paradise Earth. I couldn't believe it, but but but but but in black and white. Clearly what they said wasn't true. That was the first domino that got things moving. It was the beginning of the end for my belief in that religion.

And finally, the messaging was too loud for him to ignore. I went to tell Tracy about this. And she literally put her hands over her head, turned her back and walked away and said, I'm not listening to this. That's the thing about cult control, is that you can't even make your wife see the light. That's the trouble with black and white thinking in general, Tyler. When you have no room for even the slightest possibility of another truth,

it can destroy relationships. I ended up starting to sleep on the couch. We ended up having essentially a celibate marriage. So now Daniel is stuck between a rock and a hard place, sleeping on the couch, dealing with a family who won't listen to him when he tries to share his newfound clarity. Every scenario our rent ends up with I'm not in that religion and we are divorced. Because I couldn't stay in that

religion and she's never going to leave it because she has so many family members in it. If you're single you can just quit going and fade away and don't let them talk to you, that's the best way. But if you have a family they can use that lever over you as they do. I started gradually thinking, how can I just get out with my kids? Because this marriage obviously is going to happen. Being the dutelful father and husband that he was, Daniel stayed, hoping that one day his wife and children would see the light, like he did. But it would take years of living a lie before he could find his freedom. I was always trying to pretend I was someone I wasn't.

I still served as an elder. I kept up the facade, but it was difficult. Untangling the nod of how you end up getting to be involved in a cult like this is really difficult and it takes a lot of work. It must have been like 2007. I was in a meeting with the other elders and we got a letter from the Watchtower Bible and Track Society, once again clamping down more on education. Basically, they said that if anyone pursues higher education or sends their kids to college,

they can't be an elder. I just got my teaching credential like a couple of months ago. If this letter had come come to to, I would have been forced to not get a diploma that I've worked for decades to get because of a change in policy. By now I was ready to leave. He may have been ready, but his kids are not. Well I kept telling myself I was going to hang on until Andrew and Connor both graduated from high school.

And I almost made it. So here's the part that I'm not particularly proud of, but this is what happened. So for the last six or seven years, I was basically in a celibate marriage with my ex, I was sleeping on the couch. I was still a young and healthy man going to college and seeing all these beautiful people. There were a lot of temptations, but I resisted them. One day I happened to be in line behind a woman. We started talking, we were flirting, I got her number, we started a friendship.

Well, one thing led to another and our relationship became intimate. It probably would have been better if I just moved out and didn't have a relationship, or if I had the relationship that I kept it secret. But one of the problems is being indoctrinated as a witness for so long, I was torn up with this guilt about I'm living a double life and I'm lying, I'm not being who I am. And I just, I didn't want to be fake anymore. I wanted to be who I was. So I went and told the elders about my sexual relationship.

And a few days later, it was announced that I was no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and that was it. In one short sentence, my relationships with all my friends and my kids was ended. I wish there would have been a way that I could have figured out how to maintain a relationship with my sons, even if I hadn't gone to the elders and just said, I'm resigning as an elder, I'm moving out, and if they asked me why I would say it's none of your business and if they asked me again I'd say it's none of your god-dame business. It's interesting because and correct me if I'm wrong but you couldn't leave your children right like how could you leave your sons so on some

subconscious level perhaps you told the elders because you knew you'd get kicked out, but that way you don't have to be the one to leave because how do you leave your kids? I didn't take a break. Yeah. I just broke my glasses. I didn't take a break. Yeah. I just broke my glasses.

I'm sorry. I don't know. I haven't thought that. I never thought I consciously. Yeah. Probably that. Take your time, okay. So this is all still rolling, right? Yeah, we're on. Well, that's an interesting idea. Um, right? I never thought that in that way explicitly, but, you know, maybe on some subconscious level.

Um, right? I never thought that in that way explicitly, but you know, maybe on some subconscious level. How do you leave? You can't. Tyler, could you? I mean, you have two kids? Could you leave your children in exchange for your freedom? Absolutely not. Exactly. So, instead, he got disfellowshipped, and this backfires in the exact horrifying way you might imagine. My sons wouldn't talk to me because I was disfellows. So he does what any good father would do.

He fights for his family and tries to get reinstated. Diving straight back into the lion's mouth. So for four years, I went to every single meeting, not believing any of it anymore, going through these humiliating sessions, all in a vain attempt to reunite with my children. Four whole years he did this. Daniel voluntarily handcuffed his soul in an effort to win back his sons. So what would happen in these meetings? You're listening to this now what you consider bullshit, right? Yeah, total. Not just bullshit, but total bullshit. Let's be clear.

Right. Let's be very clear. Yeah, and now I had to pretend. It's like going undercover. Yeah. So by this time I had long since gotten my college degree and so I'd learned more critical thinking skills and I would look for anything that was propaganda, anything that was misleading, and I would highlight them. Jov's witnesses are very proud of their highlighters. One of the elders made a comment that he noticed how much I studied to prepare for meetings because my magazines, I had multiple colors and notes. And what he didn't realize is that I was making notes of all

the false and most leading statements. Interestingly, the last meeting I ever went to was sometime in January of 2014 and this was read to every congregation on earth in that week. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive from the Watched to our Bible and Track Society whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. All of us need to be ready to obey even if what we're told makes absolutely no sense. And that is a direct quote. For a religion that claims to be the truth, it's not about truth at all.

It's about sit down, shut the fuck up, listen to the rules, know your place, and be blessed. So I knew I would never go again after that. And so seven years later, after the very first realization that he was indeed in a cult, he finally left once and for all. Because he realized that sadly you can't force anyone out of a cult, not even your own children. I left the religion and began my relationship with Coddy. This is the woman he met in college. And Daniel, he started to rebuild his life. So I started teaching, I was the band director at Oak Park High School. I still write music a lot. I recently took up martial arts, which is forbidden to Jehovah's Witnesses.

It's good for my mental discipline, my physical discipline. And it's a big fuck you to the Watchtower Bileand Track Society. And if they have a problem with that, they should mind their own business because now I am lethal. Today, Daniel is a beloved teacher at California's Oak Park Independent School and revels in giving constructive criticism and encouraging critical thought. He's also happily remarried. Turns out he and Cotty were meant to be and they tied the knot in 2011. Daniel left Jehovah's Witnesses over 13 years ago. Yet sadly his children have not, and to this day, his sons won't speak to him. One of his sons lives only two blocks from him, yet he still refuses to acknowledge Daniel's existence.

Andrews married. They were married six years ago. I wasn't invited to acknowledge Daniel's existence. Andrews married. They were married six years ago. I wasn't invited to the wedding. He actually discovered his own son was getting married from one of his students. I found out about the wedding registry and bought them set of pots and pans. About a week later, it showed up on my porch with an incomprehensible note from my son.

I mean, they were English words and Andrew's intelligent, but it made no sense. He was probably so angry when he wrote it. Yet, with all of the rejection, Daniel still tries, even after all of these years. Every year on their anniversary, I send them a card, and this year I got the anniversary card back. It had been open, so they obviously read it. And Andrew had written on the outside of it, not just returned a sender, but he wrote spam

and big letters with a Sharpie, like the post office cares. I would love to have conversations with my kids. I'd still talk to my ex-wife if I could. They're the ones that block phone numbers, that don't respond to emails. My son Andrew even changed his phone number, so I couldn't call him anymore. I don't give up hope, but every day it gets a little less likely. Maybe something will happen eventually, and Andrew or Connor will one day wake up.

People often say that one of the hardest things about leaving a cult is the discovery, that the friendships they cultivated inside of the cult weren't real. Apparently I was better at teaching them beliefs than I was at teaching them what real unconditional love is. Because all this love bombing, it's also fake and bullshit because if someone can say someone is no longer a Jehovah's Witness and suddenly all your relationships are instantly over, then that wasn't love.

And it's understandably painful losing those relationships. But for Daniel, what he has now is something he can trust, which is worth its weight and gold. Now I have friendships with people who love me for who I am, rather than what I used to believe. And that's huge. My last question, let's say you go home today, and those two girls that knocked on your door ever many years ago were to knock on your door today. What would you say to them?

Are you still in that fucking cult? You can edit that one out. I would try and patiently help them to see that in fact the group they're with is not in fact the one true religion and that in fact the group they're with is not in fact the one true religion and that in fact it is a destructive group and it's harmful. I still believe in the ideals. I think it would be nice if diseases could be cured. I think it would be nice if there could be an end to crime and violence and warfare. I don't see them happening. They're certainly not going to come about

from any cult, in particular Jehovah's Witnesses. But that doesn't mean I want to give up. That's one of the things I found so damn infuriating about that religion is that one of the things they say is read your Bible, study your watchtower, go to meetings. It's so passive. That's depressing to see injustice in the world and to just wait and do nothing rather than doing something. And funny I didn't think this would be a hard part to get through. Doing nothing is unacceptable. Jehovah's not going to do it. It's up to us. It really is up to us. One of my students once asked me so how are you going to change the really is up to us. One of my students once asked me, so how are you going to change the world, Mr. O'Brien? And I said, through you, you are my superpower.

A lever. Thank you, Daniel. Quite a story. Thank you for sharing it with us. In summation, Liz, Daniel, was I in a cult? I'd say most definitely. What about you? What do you think? Yes, affirmative. Jehovah's Witnesses? Very cult. Very cult. Capital cult. Ding, ding. And thanks for listening to Was I in ault? And please join us next week for another remarkable story. It was highly sexualized, you know, once people turned a certain age,

they were having sex. It was just part of their whole ideology. I like to think of as like a swinger type environment. People would swap, no shame. I would see it quite often. I thought it was funny. Like like like like like like like like like like like thi thiiiiiiiiiii thiii thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thin, t. t. t. t. thing. thing. thing. thing. thing. thing. thing. thing. thing. thing. thing. thing. thing. thing. thing it quite often. I thought it was funny like most things I was just like, ha ha, what are they doing? Was I and a Cult is story produced and written by Tyler Miesam. And me Liz Ayakusy. Executive producer is Maya Cole Howard.

Supervising producer is Catherine Bert Canton. Audio editor is Chandler Mays. An additional story producer is Ari Basile. Visit us at was Inacol.com and learn how you can support the podcast on Patreon.