Was I In A Cult? - Munchausen by Proxy: “My Sister the Perpetrator”

Episode Date: August 12, 2024

When your sister, whom you love, fabricates a pregnancy with twins, it’s alarming. But when you eventually come to discover that your sister is the culprit of Munchausen by Proxy, life as you know it will never be the same. Today, Andrea Dunlop, a novelist and podcaster of the successful podcast, “Nobody Should Believe Me” joins us to share her personal experience with her sister’s Munchausen by Proxy abuse and delves into her family background and where it all began. Fabricated illnesses and surgeries escalate to abuse of her own children. And the question we are all wondering: Are instigators of this disorder aware of what they are doing?? Listen now to find out…  Follow Andrea: @andreadunlop  Listen to “Nobody Should Believe Me” wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the show: @nobodyshouldbelievemepod Resources for those dealing Munchausen by Proxy, visit: munchausensupport.com  Andrea’s Books: We Came Here to Forget  Losing the Light She Regrets Nothing Women are the Fiercest Creatures  Follow us on

The views, information, or opinions expressed by the guest appearing in this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, podcast one, this network, or any of their respective affiliates. We learned that she had had a second baby, who was either still born or died shortly after birth, and then very shortly after that she had her daughter. Her daughter was also born very premature, both born at 24 weeks. And so it's very hard to believe, you know, that that's a coincidence, right? I have seen that pattern a bunch of times with other perpetrators.

And now I say perpetrator, I call my sister a perpetrator because that's what I believe she is. I have strong evidence to that effect. And me, I just sit here and look pretty. Welcome to Was I an occult? I'm your host, Liz Ayakuzzi. And me, I just sit here and look pretty. Does he ever? What, woo? But I do have a name and that name is Tyler Miesom and this podcast is dedicated to giving those who are in cult or cultic environments a chance to share their story, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Of which you are not. Oh thank you Liz. Sometimes a man just needs to be

held and told he's pretty. Is there anything wrong with that? There's nothing wrong to that. Men need more lifting up in this world. I completely agree. I'll work on that. This whole episode I'm just going to throw in side compliments to Tyler just when he's feeling down. I feel up already. We do this show because we give cult survivors a chance to tell their story and take their power back. Yes and we like and we like their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. And we like their. And we like their their. their. their. their. th. th. I'm. I'm. I'm. th. I'm. I'm. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'll. I'll. I'll. I'll. I'll. I'll. I'll. I'll. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. te. te. te. te. te. te. tell. te. te. te. te. te. t to tell their story and take their power back. Yes and we like to do with humor, with lightness and fun guys. Because cults, I mean they are kind of funny if you look at it the lens. Colts are crazy guys, they just are and also like let's stop giving them the power that they think they have already. Here we just cut through it. We take them down. Sorry I don't know what that voice was. Comedy already. Not good comedy, but comedy. You're recognizing it as comedy, so therefore somebody's laughing. At you. There's a difference.

See, guys, all we do is just make fun of each other on this show. If you're new to this show, get used to it. So, today's episode features our fellow podcaster Andrea Dunlop and Andrea is the host of the hit podcast No One Should Believe Me. If you haven't heard of it it is a great show. She is one of the podcasters in the True Crime Space doing wonderful, impactful work and so we wanted to introduce you our dear devoted listeners to her if you don't know her work already. The podcast No One Should Believe Me Dives into the world of Moonchows and by proxy. And if you don't know what

that means don't worry you will find out very soon. And if you do you may not categorize Moonchousin by proxy as a cult until you hear it in context. Now on her podcast which is now in its fourth season Andrea covers covers specific cases over the course of many episodes. Speaking with the victim or victims, she's talks to top experts, reporters, detectives, and family members. It's a highly produced show and it's it's really good. I'm a big fan. So with that, let's jump right in shall we? Take out your night. Purify me. Don't spare my life. Crucify me. Andrea. I'm really excited to have you on the show. Like we met randomly at a podcasting party. Yeah we did we met at a party at podcast movement. Yeah. You had

your very adorable child was running around. I was missing my adorable son who is the same exact age we just found out and so I was just like oh my god a baby and then same age look at that cute mom. So just because nobody knows who the hell you are yet why don't you just introduce yourself my name is Andrea Dunlop I'm an author and post and creator of Nobody should believe me which is an investigative true crime podcast that looks at Munchaus and by proxy cases. It's a big part of my professional life over the last five years. So how did you become a novelist and have you been writing your whole life? You know, from the time I was a little kid, I was drawn to reading, I was drawn to storytelling. I wrote a lot of extremely tortured poetry about boys when I was a teenager? I really was big Barbara Walters. to to to the tha wa th.. th. th. th. th. th. I th. I th. I th. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeateeeeeeeeeeeee. thi, thi, when I was a teenager. I really was big Barbara Walters' stand when I was growing up.

That was the other thing I sort of wanted to do with my life. I was like, yeah, I went Barbara Walters and just like, talk to people and get to the bottom of things. You know, I went to a liberal arts college. I was a creative writing major. When I graduated from college, I moved to New York City and I got like a temp job at Random House and you know, I was in heaven. Like you would see famous authors in the elevator

and like there's these legendary editors. It's so funny too how like every industry has its rock stars. So yeah, I mean, it took me a long time to get my first book published, which is totally standard. You try all these years to get a book published, and that's like, I'm gonna be a published author and it's gonna change my life, and then you just get to being a published author and you're like, oh, this is actually just now,

this is my job, and I think a lot of us get nostalgic about the time, and it's been validating for many reasons. My family, you know, my parents are wonderful. They've been married for 46 years. They're lovely. You know, my sister, so my sister's two years older. We grew up close. We had a happy life together in high school. She really had this fixation on her health.

She was very athletic, she was like captain on our swim team, and overall had always been healthy but started to have all these injuries in high school where she ended up having knee surgery and ended up having back surgery and then there was something wrong with the back surgery and there was like a lot of questions about that surgery. Which may sound like she's faking an injury to maybe get some more painkillers, which people have done that. But odd things around her sister kept occurring. The one thing that happened in high school she started developing a bald patch in her hair, which like your high school girl, a total nightmare right, very noticeable, like people were asking about it at school of course and my mom total nightmare, right? Very noticeable, like people were asking about it at school of course, and my mom took her to the dermatologist, and dermatologist

pulled her aside and said she's not losing her hair, she's shaving it off. So that obviously was very alarming. My mom wanted her to go to therapy, but this was the 90s. Therapy wasn't quite in like the same place as it is now, and also like you cannot get a 17- old to go to therapy if they don't want to go to therapy. We kind of like it just all moved along past that and also like teenage girls do wild things for attention. Now people have done lots of strange things for attention. I myself in the 80s tightly rolled up the bottom of my gerbo jeans. Was that for attention or just to get the ladies? It was for attention.

It didn't necessarily get the ladies. But, you know, what is style if it's not trying to get attention? That's true. Who started that trend? I don't know, but it was very popular for a while. You had to get a tight roll on on on on on do remember that. You folded it and then you like did a fold in and then you did a double roll up. The fold the top.

I was there for that. I was there for that. It was great. You had the gerbo-jeaned, tiedly tucked. You had the braided long leather belt, up, that's good living. I don't care what decade you're in. It's coming back, guys. It's coming back. I have never really done anything weird like that for attention. I did cut off my bangs with scissors when I was like five. But I think I did that because my bowl cut was just a little too sexy for the kindergarten. And I just felt the need to dial it back, you know to I didn't want to throw out too much sex appeal in kindergarten. It's responsible

that's responsible of you Liz. He definitely didn't want to get get cooties on the playground so. So as Andrea's sister continues to get older there's always a health crisis a lot of times they happen when everyone is out of town, like she was hospitalized when my parents were at my graduation, in California from college, like that kind of thing. So there was just kind of like always some things. But then the health crises, well let's just say they evolved. We know when we're in our 20s, she was with a long-term boyfriend and then fiance. He actually had a little boy who I think was like four or five at the time and they were living together and he had some real concerns about the

way that Megan was with his son and so he left her. He had moved back to his home state and that was when she produced a positive pregnancy test. And she told us all that she was pregnant with twin girls. And so he always suspected that this pregnancy was never real. But then also was like, what if it was? And I was living in New York at the time. I was very excited about this news. I was home for the holidays.

She looked pregnant. She was wearing maternity clothes. There was a baby shower. And then over New Year's, again, my parents were out of town. I was out of town. This was months before her due date. And so she called us and said that she had gone into labor early and that she was going to lose the pregnancy and she was in the hospital. My parents were like scrambling to get a flight home. I couldn't fly home because I was like very junior at work and had, and th. And th. And th. And the the the to. And to. And the the the to, and the to, and the the the to, and the their, and to, and their, and their, and I, and their, and their, and, their, their, too, their, their, tooome, tooom, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, to, to, toe, toe, toe, to, to, toe, too, too, too, too, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, tooomorrow, tooomorrow, tooomorrow, tooomorrow, tooomorrow, tooomorrow, their, their, their, their, to were like scrambling to get a flight home. I couldn't fly home because I was like very junior at work and had to get back, but I was like talking to her all the time. She like talked to me through this whole thing of like I'm in the hospital, here's what they're doing,

here's what they're looking at, you know. Her fiance plane had to land in Montana and so now he's driving from there. It was like a whole sort of odyssey of him trying to get back. And then the eventual outcome of this is that she lost the babies. And she was six months in, so that is, you know, it's a devastating time to lose a baby. That's, you know. So, yeah, so I was heartbroken for her. It was horrible. And then, about a week after this happened, I got a phone call from my dad and he said something is not adding up about the situation, and we think Megan is lying about the pregnancy. They had been over at her house and they'd seen discharge papers from the day that she lying about the pregnancy.

They had been over at her house and they'd seen discharge papers from the day that she was in the hospital and it said she'd been hospitalized for dehydration. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. So fall is rolling in, guys, and you know what that means? College football. I was thinking more like school year is starting, but sure. Oh, yeah Yeah that's right. This month I have one daughter that graduates college and a son who's going into kindergarten. Both ends of the scholastic spectrum. Yeah but for my little one I have been teaching him financial independence

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slash cult. That's Greenlight.com.s.Cult to try Greenlight for free. Greenlight.com slash cult. Also, I really like that the credit card, you can like make a photo. Did you do that? Yeah, no, we didn't do it. Oh, we did. Yeah, you can put a little picture of your kids on it. It's. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the green light. Green light. Green light. to to the the the the the the the the tr. true. true. true. true. true. true. true. true. true. true. to true. to to to to to to to to to to to to to toip on it. Yeah, it's cute. Hey Liz, you know what I hate? Tithing. Yes, but also B-O. Body odor, hate it. Worst, especially in the summer. Yeah. Which is why guys we are so excited to talk about an awesome deodorant company, Loomy. Now look, I've been known to get nerdy. No this do you... Yes, yeah, I am. No, this deodorant is made with mandelic acid, and mandalic acid is an alpha hydroxy acid

and is derived from, get this, palmans, believe it. I can't, I don't. Yeah, it's true. And basically, mandelic acid neutralizes the odor by addressing the source of the problem. Sounds like this the odorant has been to therapy. Hmm, one application in the morning, and I'm set all day. And it's for every part of the body that may need it. Yeah, pits, feet, downstairs if you know what I mean.

Privets, just say privates. Privets, just say privates. I know or private area. If you want that sort of thing. And the best part about it is, it's free of baking soda and parabenes, so it's gentle on those sensitive areas. And jokes aside, guys, I love their lavender body deodorant cream. And it has no aluminum, or as the Brits say, aluminium. Aluminium. Lummi's starter pack is perfect for new customers.

It comes with a solid stick deodorant, cream tube deodorant, two free products of your choice. And as a special offer for listeners, new customers, get 15% off all loomy products with our exclusive code in a cult. So if you combine the 15% off with the already discounted starter pack, you guys that equals over 40% off their starter pack. See, Tyler, I can do math too, okay? You did really good, Liz. You did really good.

Thank you. So use code in a cult for 15% off your first purchase at loomdeo-o-de-and-t.com. I can also spell, wow. the micO-R-A-N-T. I can also spell wow. Bam, mic drop. All this and a set of white teeth. Don't take me to a spelling bee. If you want to lose.

We all started kind of conferring with each other, and like I talked to her best friend, and she had told that friend, like a completely different story about she'd said that her fiance had made it back in time and they'd gone to the hospital together and they'd said goodbye to the babies and they'd taken pictures and like this whole thing. So it just like became clear really fast, that like something wasn't adding up.

You know, I'm pretty good at math. of this is adding up. Did you carry the one? I did. I carried the one. I double check my math, not adding up. First of all, how does one produce a fake pregnancy test? Like, do they sell them on Etsy or in the dark web? Like, I don't understand this. And then you have to continue it at fake a pregnancy with twins, no less. And then the fabrication of the story and the hospital lies, lies. you the, she definitely wasn't pregnant because if she had really been pregnant, she would have been way too tired to come up with that kind of bad shit premeditative lie. Because it's exhausting. Sounds exhausting. I prefer the Mark Twain quote, if you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. And then she followed this pattern that I've now realized it's very much ubiquitous in.. Because, because, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if she, if she, if she, if she, if she, if she, if she, if she, if she, if she, if she's the the the the the the the the the the the the th the the the the the the th, if she th, if she she th, if she, if she, if she, if she th, if she the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th, if she the story th, if she thi, if she's thi, if she's thi, thi, thi, thiiiiiiiiiiiiiii's theauiauiaugh, thi, thi, thi, thi thi thi thi thi thi thell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. And then she followed this pattern that I've now realized is very much ubiquitous in people

who do these kind of behaviors where start off denying it, then minimize and then project blame, right? So first it was like, no, of course not, like how could you accuse me of that? And then it's like, okay, well, I lost the pregnancy and I didn't know how to tell anybody and I was so ashamed because my fiance had left me, et cetera, et cetera. So then we were like blaming the fiance. And like, I also like blamed the fiance. I was like, yeah, it was his fault. Like, no, no, logical, no, logical sense.

And they would just be like, you. And so you just go like, all right, I guess that makes sense. And you know, she's very smart and she's very charming on the surface. She's very adept at listening to sympathy. And when confronted, she would cry, she would give all these reasons. And then you just end up comforting her and feeling like a jerk for sort of confronting her on it. Well, that sounds a bit like a cult leader or two that we've spoken about on our dear little show. You don't say. And it was very effective, right?

It's really worked for a long time. You just sort of, I think, when it's someone that you love and when it's someone in your family, you just want them to be better. You just want, you want to, you to, you to, you to to to to to believe to believe to believe, you to believe to believe, you to believe, you to believe, you want to believe, you want to believe, you want to believe, you want to believe, you want to believe, you want to believe, you want to believe, to believe, to believe, to believe, to believe, to believe, to to to th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, to, to to to to to to to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be to be to be the the to be the the the the the the the the the the th. thi. thi. thi. throooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. the. the. the. the. the. the. to, th. to, to be better. You know, you just want, you want to believe, oh, this is a rough patch or she'll grow out of it or whatever it is you're telling yourself. I just really didn't want it to be what it was, which is that my sister had fabricated an entire pregnancy, and then taken us through loss and grief about two babies that were not real and we were able to sort of dilute ourselves into thinking like just a weird blip that fake pregnancy. Similar to one in a cult right like the same downplaying of red flags or unacceptable behavior so you end up disregarding it in the name of

something else and in this case it was in the name of love for her family. So at this point like Andrea said the fake pregnancy was a blip or was written off as such. And possibly because of that, Megan and her longtime boyfriend go their separate ways. And like, she's doing great now, and then she met her current husband, Andy, and they got married, and they had this big beautiful wedding, and we thought he was so great and he's so stable and now she's going to just do great happily ever after Lardina.

And so I think we were really in that mindset until her son was born, her older child. So he was born premature. I don't remember what weeks, but it was early enough to be a little alarming. My parents had to fly back from where they're there, so just like maximum drama with the timing. And then, you know, he was in the NICU briefly, the neonatal ICU, and that was very scary. His prognosis was always really good and positive whenever he was coming out of the hospital.

And then he just started to have all these issues just wasn't gaining weight, wasn't meeting developmental milestones, and think over that first year of his life, my parents and I just in this sense of something's wrong but we don't quite know what to do about it and my sister started being in very insistent that he needed a G-2 which is the one that goes in through their nose to their stomach and then if that's not working not not not not not that's not not not not not that's not not that's not that's not that's not that's not that's not that's not that's not that's not that's not that's not that's not th th tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho thoo thoooo tho. tho. tho tho tho tho tho thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi needed a G-tube, which is the one that goes in through their nose to their stomach. And then if that's not working, then they will escalate to having a G or a G-J-tube, which are the surgically implanted ones that go in their stomach. And she was really advocating for theat.

thiii. for making this next step, and my mother actually went to a doctor's appointment with her, and that was very unusual for her to let anybody else go with her, but she did go to this one, and the doctor was saying, no, let's wait and see, I think we'll just give it more time, you know, we don't want to do this if it's not necessary, and then she was like, oh, they're immediately. And so they're really really really really really really really, they're really, they're really, th. thi. thi. they're, thi. thi. thi. I, thi. I, thi. I, thi. I, thi. I, thi. I was, thi. I was, thi. I was, to to to to to to to to to told, told, told, told, told, told, told, to.... I, to. I, to. I, to.. I, to. I, to. I, to. I, to. I, to. I, to. I, to. I, to. I, to. I, to. I. I. I. I. I. to. I, to. to. I. to. I. to. I'm, to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to sort of crossing a line to where like, oh, now he's going to have a surgery. And so my parents went to speak to our family doctor who'd known all of us for a million years and she told them this sounds like Munchausen by proxy and here is what that is. And that was the first time we'd ever really heard that term. I might might have have have have have have have have have th have th have th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the tho tho tho tho thou. tho. tho. the the thou. tho. tho. tho. tho. thoe. thoe. thoe. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. the the tho. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. the th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. time we'd ever Really heard that term. I might have heard it in passing like in that movie the Sixth Sense

But it was not on my radar was not on my parents radar The Sixth Sense scared me a bit. I must admit. Yeah, it's a scary movie. It scared me too, but do you remember the scene? When the kid Cole was his name played by Haley Joe Osmond. Yes, he sees dead people. S. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. the th. th. the th. th. the th. the th. th. the th. the the th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. toda. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. t. t. t. Spoiler alert. He goes to the funeral of the little girl and he gives the VHS tape to the dad, who watches it and sees it his wife. It's time for lunch, Kira. The mother of the dead girl was pouring floor cleaner in the girl's soup. I'm feeling much better now. That's so great, honey. It's th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiolioliolome, thi, thiolomea, thoom, tho, tho, tho, tho, the the the the the the the the the the tho, tho, th, th, th, th, the the the the the the the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi's thi's theea' thea' thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thi. That's so great, honey. It's time for your food. Yeah.

Can I go outside of me eat this? I don't know, you know how you get sick in the afternoons. Ugh. It's awful. Don't say that it tastes funny, you know, I don't need to hear that. You are keeping her sick. It's a creepy scene. That is a dramatization of Moonchosen by proxy. What happened next after my parents had that conversation with their doctor,

they came home and they told me. But it was sort of like, well, yes, she's done these things, but she would never just fake a pregnancy. And then it was, yes, she faked a pregnancy, but she would never actually hurt her child. And then when you have to reckon with that is what's happening, yeah, it was worst, worst, worst day of my life. Everything in my life is sorted until before that moment and after that moment. Okay, so Andrea has just been told that her dear sister may have a disorder called Munchausen by proxy.

Which is a relatively rare and very unique disorder. Munchousen by proxy abuse consists of exaggerating, inducing, or inventing illness in your child for the purposes of sympathy at attention. There is a psychiatric diagnosis associated with it. It is in the DSM, which is a complicated and imperfect tome, obviously, and the DSM entry is factitious disorder imposed on another. That's great. Rolls right off the tongue.

There's a lot of crossover with like cluster B personality disorders, which I can only imagine that you are very familiar with. So the name of this disorder, M.Cowson by proxy, isn't an easy one to say, and sometimes it's even been shortened to M.B.P. Not to be confused with M. V. V. V. the name. M. M. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the name. M. to. M. M. to. M. M. M. M. M. to. M. M. M. M. M. to. M. M. M. to. to. to. to. M. I. M. I. M. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. M. M. M. M. M. I. I. I. I. I.................................................................................... A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A.................................................. M.V.P. Which is what I'm gunning for. The term Munchausen by proxy comes from the name of Baron Munchausen, a fictional German nobleman created by author Rudolf Erick Rasp in the 18th century. Now, Baron Munchausen was known for telling outrageous, exaggerated and fantastic tales about his adventures, many of which were clearly fabricated.

The term Munchausen syndrome was first coined by Dr. Richard Asher in 1951 to describe a psychiatric disorder in which a person fain or induces illness in themselves to gain attention or sympathy. But Munchousan by proxy, as Andrea just explained, extends this concept to describe a situation where a caregiver, often a parent, deliberately causes or fabricates illness in someone else, typically a child to seek attention or sympathy for themselves. So it's Munchausen. Munchausen. Have you seen the film The Adventures of Baron von Munchausen?

I have not. It's a 1988 film directed by Terry Gilliam. It's amazing. It has Robin Williams in it. What? It has Eric Gidell, it has John Cleese. It was originally budgeted for 23 million dollars and it went over budget to 46 million dollars. It only made, it only made eight million dollars in the box office, but I've seen this movie probably 10 times. I absolutely love it and it's kind of become a cult classic over the years. It's actually really funny, really fantastic movie, and it's about Aaron Munchausen. You always got to one up the world with your random facts.

I just know that movie. I watched it over and over when I was a kid. I love that movie. I love it. I th it. I th it. I th it. I th it. I th it. I th it. I th it. I th it. I th it. I th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th tho tho tho- I've thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi tm. I tm. I've tha tha tha tha tha th. I've tha tha tha tha tha. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've tm. I'm tmsea tmooooooooo' teea'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a te. I've te. I just know that movie. I watched it over and over when I was a kid. I love that movie. I love it. I'm going to watch it now. Okay. This one I'll actually watch. You're always teaching me things, Tyler. See, the compliments. Liz, it feels good to give them. It feels good to get them. I told you I was going to sprinkle them and here I am. A hundred percent 100% chance of sprinkles today. Many times when these ladies, and I say ladies because it's 96% women, they will say, oh my child actually has this thing. They were born premature, for instance, so of course they're going to have feeding issues, or they have this rare condition, you know, that like you can't really, like, completely 100% rule out on tests or whatever. And the misconception is that, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th know, that like you can't really like completely 100% rule out on tests or whatever. And the misconception is that oh if your child has a

genuine issue, then that proves there isn't abuse going on. Of course not. So one, two or three of those things happening, right? It's all abuse. So even if they have a condition or they start off with a condition and then that parent consistently makes it worse. And there's also elements of medical neglect in here because the parent then doesn't follow the feeding protocol that they're given, right? And as to the premature birth thing, this is something that was really hard for me to swallow and is, I think, one of the sort of more difficult thing for people to wrap their heads around just because they think it really is, it really is awful. But it's certainly my belief, and this is shared by many of the experts I've talked to and this is where I got this information,

that premature births are caused by the perpetrators in most case. It's not hard to get medications that could cause you to go into labor. There's all kinds of ways. You know, as a mother carried her child, had a preterm birth and had my son who was in the nickew, it is quite impossible to fathom that someone would actually on purpose cause a premature birth and put their child in danger. And there are perpetrators that have been interviewed by my friend and colleague Dr. Mark Feldman, who's the author of four books on this subject. He's had perpetrators explained to. th. th. th. th. to. to. to. to. th. to. th. to. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thoe, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. thea. to, thea. thea. thea. thea. the. the. the. the. the. the. of four books on this subject. He's had perpetrators explained to him how they caused their premature birth and why, right? Like, then I was in, then I was hospitalized and then I had all these people taken care

of me and that felt really good. And so it's for the purposes of sympathy and intention. Like, that's the intrinsic reward, that's the psychopath of you any more with a preterm baby than they do a full one. You get your two nights stay in the hospital on a bed that makes a pull-out mattress from the 90s feel like a dream, and then they kick you out. See you later. Happy parenting. But this, Moonshousin by proxy, is a very toxic and life-threatening, a tha, a tha, a tha, a tape, tha, toe, toxic, and life-a, and life-a, and life-a, and life-threatening attention-seeking tactic. She should probably just go back to shaving her head in a weird, fabricated, bald spot.

Agreed. Much better way to seek attention. But it's very important, obviously, especially when there are children involved, to like recognize that this is abuse. It's a high death rate, 6 to 9 percent. And even for those who survive, just lifelong psychological, emotional, and physical impact on those kits. So it is very dangerous. Now, the question I couldn't help thinking this whole time

is, do people who suffer from this? Are they aware of what they're doing? One of my first questions when I got the chance to speak to Dr. Mark Feldman was when people do this, do they understand what they're doing? Are they delusional? Are they, you know, like, what's, it seems like she sometimes believes that this is? That this is true, that her children really are sick. thi theee told me no. They understand right from wrong, they understand what the truth is. They're not having delusions, they're not having psychosis, and they know what they're doing, and they're doing it in a very

premeditated, very long-con way. Yeah, this makes me sad. Yeah, this makes me sad. It actually genuinely makes me truly sad. I don't like when you're sad, Tyler. Thanks, Liz. This is me frowning. You're still beautiful, though. Thanks. You're still so pretty when you're sad. Thanks.

Let me wipe that tear for you. I'm showing the compliments all episode. Let it rain, 100% chance of showers. Munch housing by proxy abuse consists of inducing exaggerating or inventing illnesses of your own for the purposes of sympathy and attention. So it's hard for me to believe that somehow pregnancy itself, which is a medical condition, does not fit into that pattern. It's almost like you're showing it, right?

And you want the world to constantly bow to you for those nine months and give you more attention and... Yeah. I personally hated that about Precusey, right? Yeah. I hated having a visible thing that strangers felt compelled to comment on and that random ladies would be like, oh my god, what are you having? How far along are you? Let me guess how far along you are. It's the best thing. I have seven of them and they're all grown and let me tell you about,

I'm like, I'm just trying to buy milk. Here's a PSA for anyone listening who might be inclined to ask someone if they're pregnant, don't. Don't do that. They might not want to talk to you about their uterus for all the reasons, right? Yeah. So real quick, how did she appear pregnant with the twins? I don't know. I mean, certainly, like, bodies are bodies and bodies look all kinds of ways, and it's not like only pregnant people have tummies, whether she was like wearing a thing, like, I truly don't know. And it's like because I't realize this was a fake pregnancy I was not attuned to looking for the fakery and in fact when I was home for that visit over the holidays when she was allegedly almost six

months pregnant she said hey come put your hand on my stomach and feel the baby kick and I was like okay and so and feel the baby kick. And I was like, okay. And so I like felt a baby kick, I thought. Extraordinarily disorienting to then find out that there was no baby there. So what that was, whether that was a little bit of a tummy rumble or a little jerk of a must, I have no idea. And similarly to cults, if you're lucky enough to break free of course, there always comes a point where you just can't ignore the writing on the wall any longer.

Up into a point, we were worried that she was harming her child and then that was obviously a breaking point. And my mother ended up going and talking to the doctor and spoke to him and just relayed our concerns and some other things about Megan's history that were causing those concerns. And he asked her, do you think it's time for an intervention? And she said yes. You know, and I admire my mom so much for her bravery because she did what she needed to do

to protect the child. And she had been picturing, we're all going to sit down and talk this through, and we'll get all the doctors on the same page, and we'll talk to Megan and her husband, and that's not what he meant. So, and I don't remember how much time passed. Megan was actually going to join us in a couple of days, and then we got this phone call from her husband just absolutely hysterical. Like CPS just showed up at our door and took the baby. And we did not know that was gonna happen. So that was extremely shocking. You know, initially we were talking to Megan and her husband Andy,

and then CPS revealed to them that my mother called the hospital with concerns. We became the enemy overnight, and that's exactly like the reason that CPS should keep that information private if possible, right? Because we did not want to end our relationship with her. We did not want her to get in trouble. I mean, my parents didn't want her kid to end up in foster care and we were just envisioning all kinds of scary outcomes.

So they certainly had no desire to like separate her permanently. We were looking at this as, oh, this is a mental health problem that she needs help with, and that's what we wanted to do now. And what I've learned since then is they have to take it to a judge to get a signed off on. So you have to have evidence that something is happening to do that. You can't just do there was a whole sort of process going on with the child abuse team at Children's Hospital. So that either kicked off an investigation or there was already one going that we would not have known about.

What I do know is that call from my mother would not be enough by itself to facilitate something like an emergency removal. Now normally I would jump in here with some timely stats, but Andrea totally stole my thunder. The vast majority of child removals in this country actually do not happen because of abuse. They happen because of neglect. Now, neglect obviously is also potentially serious, but it's a lot more of a gray area

because it's so adjacent to poverty, right? So there are a disproportionate number of families that get caught up in those child removal situations because they are deemed to not have adequate housing, etc., etc. Problems that could be fixed with resources and with support. You know, what they need is help not punishment. 76% of child removals in this country fall into that category. As to the 24 percent of removals that happened because of abuse, this is a very different picture, right? When they looked at confirmed reports of child abuse, seven percent of those ended up in child removal. Now not every

abuse situation should end up in a child removal, right? But the bigger problem is that children are routinely sent back into abusive situations, that it's not taken seriously enough. So yeah, I mean, I think that just really speaks to like what the actual problem is. Tyler, speaking of achy bones. You know this, I don't recall having spoken about eggy bones. And you know why I haven't? Because I've been using CBD from CB Distillery.

Game changer, you guys, this company is the OG of CBD. They really know what they're doing and their high quality product actually helps with all my issues. Oh, you're is useless. I mean, ah! Like at least the ones that you can't help with. Let's just say that. Fair enough, that's pretty good too. CB Distillery has targeted formulations

made with clean ingredients. No fluff, no fillers, just pure effective CBD to help you actually feel better. And not to pull a Tyler here, but in two surveys guys, 81% of customers felt calmer, 80% said it helped with post-workout pain, and 90% said they finally slept better after using CBD. I love their CBD tincdia called ah, because that's exactly how I feel when I use it. Not to be confused with your pre-Cbd ah, it was more like, ah-ah!

Yeah, it's kind of from the gut, it's more of a, ugh! like you're forcing it at it, a, a, a, the the the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, t t t t toge, t ttogether, together, together, together, together, thi, thi, tipe, thi. It's more of a, ugh, oh, like you're forcing it up. Work it from the diaphragm. Very good. That's better. And looky here, Liz. I've got a 20% discount for you guys to get started. Visit CBD distillery.com and use code cult. That's CBdistillery.com code cult. C.B.DDistillery.com code cult. CB distillery.com code cult. 20% off. Now that's something to about. Ah.

Ah. Ah. Ah. A true crime podcast. It got me upset because this is someone's kid and someone knows she's gone. That takes a different approach. It was shocking for something like this to happen in our little town. Focusing on the communities affected by life-shattering crimes. It made news throughout the entire region that these two people had been shot while they slept in such a safe community.

To give a new perspective on the devastation crimes can cause. It was shocking for something like this to happen in our little town. Featuring cases from quiet towns to bustling cities and interviewing the people closest to the case. My first thought was that it's an unusual location for us to have a homicide. Listen to the True Crime Podcast, city confidential, and step beyond the yellow tape to learn just how far a crime can reach. There are certain cases in the history of Boston that I think sort of define the city.

I think this is one of them. New episodes of the City Confidential Podcasts, available wherever you get your podcasts. I can't help a question. Where the hell is Megan's husband and all of this? What is his thinking? Well, here Tyler is where it gets a little more culty. So that became very contentious between the two families. Her husband and his family very much are true believers.

Like, they are in the cult of Megan. That actually is the perfect way to describe it because it does not matter how much evidence these people have been presented with over the years. They will never believe that she's guilty. We tried to have conversations with them. There was one family meeting that the social worker set up where we all sat in this room, and it was me and my mother. My dad has a temper and tempormper and tham and tempormper and tham and tham and tham and tham and tham tham tham and tham tham tham to be tham to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to have to be to to to to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to to to to to to th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. the. the the the. the the theeat the the theeeeeeeat theeeeeat theeat theat theeat. My dad didn't come because my dad has a temper and that would not have been productive to have him in that room. And my sister and her husband came and they brought like friends

and aunties and just this like whole entourage of people that just all took turns telling us what horrible people we were and how could we, you know, accuse her of this. And we try to tell them. We try to be like, listen, we know you think you're doing the right thing. And like, we love her, but you do not know the history here. Like, you have not seen what we've seen. And I don't know if they absorbed any of it then very, she's very socially adept. She's incredibly smart and she's very like warm and personable and good with people, right? So she's very good at creating a sort of team around her.

So if Megan is the cult leader in this story, then Andrea was once in the cult of Megan. But as soon as she spoke out against the leader or questioned her, that was it. She just cut you off and that was it? So basically, for my purpose is yes, for me, yes. My father, she was still talking to for a while because for a minute there, he was paying her attorney's fees. I didn't agree with him doing that at the time, but now that I am a parent, I can sympathize with that much more,

I think it is very hard hard hard hard hard hard hard to hard to not want to do anything you can to protect your child even when you believe that your child is doing something wrong, right? I think he had this vision of like he was going to be able to hire a lawyer and the lawyer was going to get her the help that she needed and sort things out. I think it was just a way to try and to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to to the to to to th. th. thi, thi, thin, thr, thr, thr, thr, thr, thr, thr, thr, thi, thi, thrown, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their, to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thr. try, try, try, try, try, try, try, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, torying a way to try and like exert some control over the situation that was so scary and felt so out of control. That is not what that lawyer did. He, you know, successfully defended her in court. That did not go to a trial. So there was no dependency, there's sort of a bunch of hearings. There was a CPS investigation. It did not get elevated to the police that time, that investigation just sort of ended with nothing. They sort of recommended that my sister get some therapy and then like that was it. Needless to say, like therapy is not a solution for someone who is abusing

their kids. It is part of a solution, but it does not do anything to protect the child, right? So this investigation came to nothing and then we just sort of were looking around thinking great. Like our entire th. th. th. th. th. th. the the th. th. th. the the th. th. thi, it, it, it, it, it, it, thi, thi, thi, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th. th. th. th. th. the the thi. thi. thi. thi. the thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. theau. th. theau. thea. thea. thea. thea came to nothing and then we just sort of were looking around thinking, great, like our entire family has been destroyed and it didn't accomplish anything, right? Like it didn't not protect the child. It's, we're just where we were before. And there was this other sort of series of events where my brother-in-law discovered some other deceptions of my sister, then he was very distraught about that and reached out to my father. Even with what he discovered on his own, which had nothing to do with the child abuse situation, he

just would not accept that Megan could also lie about her son's health. And so basically that ended with the two of them coming to my dad and saying, if you want to see your grandson again, you'll fund us suing the children's hospital for falsely accusing Megan of abuse. And needless to say, he declined to do that. And that was the last any of us have spoken to her, and this is almost 14 years ago. And, you know, over sort of like that, th th th th th th th that, like that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that that that that that that them them them, them, them, them them, them, them, them, them, them, them, them, them, them, them, them, them, th, th, th, th, th, th, to, th, to, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thiiii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to, to, toe, tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomomomoomorrow, toe, the, thi, of us have spoken to her, and this is almost 14 years ago.

And you know, over sort of like that period of time, we learned that she had had a second baby who was either still born or died shortly after birth. I'm not sure what the case was. She posted a photo on Facebook, which is how we learned about that, and then very shortly after that she had her daughter. Her daughter was also born around 24 weeks, so very, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, like, that, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that about that. And then very shortly after that, she had her daughter. Her daughter was also born around 24 weeks, so very early, very premature. Both born at 24 weeks, again, one didn't survive. And so it's very hard to believe, you know, that that's a coincidence, right?

And I have seen that pattern a bunch of times with other perpetrators. And now I say perpetrator, I call my sister a perpetrator because that's what I believe she is. I have strong evidence to that effect. So Andrea discovered that in addition to a nephew, she now had a very premature-born niece. We'd seen that my niece was on the, you know, hospitals have like their fundraising pages where they say, this is little so-and, and they have, you know, this is this is your donation is going to help, right?

So my niece had been on this hospital's fundraising page and someone sent it to us. And so we read this, you know, description of like, she has everything wrong in the world and this, you know, the whole constellation of symptoms this is very alarming. So my dad did send an email to the hospital director. So we got a call from a police detective. But we hadn't spoken to my sister in almost a decade at this point. So we all spoke to the detective and just told him what we knew about the background. Right at that point we didn't have any new information. So that time I was hopeful that something was going to happen. It tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the. the, the, the, the, the, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. the. the. the. I was hopeful that something was going to happen. It seemed like they were taking a lot more seriously.

Obviously, the police were involved. So that resulted in this two-year-long police investigation, right? There's a DCF investigation and there's a police investigation. The investigations in these cases are extremely lengthy. The number of medical records for her then five-year-old daughter was 73,000 pages of medical records. I'm sorry, 73,000 pages of medical records. That's my next summer beetried guys. It'll be perfect for Tyler's boring book club. Thanks Liz. That's like reading 48

bibles. Which would be 48 more times than I've read it. And it's also like reading 137 Book of Mormons. Which is the exact number of times you've read it? Spoiler alert, he sees dead people. How many times have you read the Book of Mormon? I don't know, 10 maybe? I've only read the Bible once all the way through. The Old Testament. You really have? Of course. The Old Testament is really hard to get through. The New Testament. Testament I probably read, I don't know. the Bible. th. th. th. th. th. the Bible. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. the th. the th. th. th. the th. the thi. thi. the the the th. the the the the times. times. the the the the the times. times. times. times. times. times. times. times. times. times. times. times. times. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi. the thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. times. times. times. times. times. thi. thi. to get through. The New Testament I probably read, I don't know, seven, eight times all the way through. Old Testament's really tough. And was that when you were in a Mormon, or was that? Yeah, it was when I was a Mormon.

I don't, I have many other books to read right now. I know how the Bible ends. Flood, flamin, pestill and. they. they. they. they. they. their. th. th. their. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thii. thia. thia. thia. th. thia. than. than. than. thoom's is is thoom. thoom. thoom. thii. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. It is is is is is is is is is is. It's is. It's is. It's is. It's is. It's is. It's is. It's is. It's is. It's is. It's is. It's is a. It's is a t. toda. toda. toda. toda. that's. that's. that's. that's was. that. that's was. that's was. that's was. that's readers. Then I have to read it. They'd have to watch the movie either. Yeah. And so it went to trial and a juvenile court judge denied the state's petition, right? So if a juvenile court dismisses it, basically, it's like the criminal courts just think what's the point? And it was referred to the prosecuting attorney's office and the prosecuting attorney's office declined to file charges. So, yeah, so I mean, then it sort of had a second thing come to nothing. And however, even those reports and investigations, even when they ultimately aren't successful, they do slow the pattern down.

And that can be the difference between life and death. So that's just always something that I hold on to. Well, how does it slow the pattern down? If the investigation is doing what it's supposed to, the parent should be separated completely with potentially supervised visitation if they follow the rules. They should be placed with someone who understands that the suspicion of abuse is there.

The children were placed both times with her in laws. They allowed her to see them all the there. The children were placed both times with her in-laws. They allowed her to see them all the time. They allowed her to spend 14 hours a day at the house. They were not following the rules. So she was not fully separated, but nonetheless, I mean, there's court monitoring during that time. That's eyes on the child, right? So it just reduces the chance that child will die. And especially in these cases where that was that was th was th was the is the is the the is the the the the the is the that child will die. And especially in these cases where that was very close to happening, as it was in my niece's case. And you don't know how your niece and nephew have been all these years?

Information does make its way back to me. And also just looking at the trajectory of these cases overall, one thing that we know about perpetrators is this is an incredibly compulsive behavior. It does not stop when they are confronted. It does not stop when they get in trouble. It does not stop when they go to jail. These abusers will be relentless about getting back into their lives if they've been cut off. If they're living with them, they will continue to perpetrate on them. So yeah, I don't think there's any reason to believe that they're safe in that house. Do you miss your sister at all? When we first became estranged, I really was very deep in that grief because I loved her very much. This is the person I shared my childhood with I thought we would be together

for ever. You know, there's this version of her that I remember from my childhood and even from when we were a teenagers who was like so fun and really had this personality outside of this obsession. She really got taken over by her obsession more and more and I miss having a sister and I miss having an intact family and I kind having an intact family. And I kind of miss that version of my life as I thought it was going to be. But I certainly don't want her in my life, unless she's willing to take accountability for her actions, which not holding my breath on that one, I don't think that she ever will.

Part of actually my motivation that I didn't even see at the time, for developing all this expertise, for getting in toubts with all these experts, was like, if there was a way to help her, I wanted to know. The biggest lesson of covering these cases has been that the more eyes you can have on a child, the the to do anything more to protect my niece and nephew. The people around them are not protecting them because they don't believe Megan's abusive. Putting her name out there is one thing that I can do. And using my sister's real name, Megan Carter, is part of that, right? I want people to know and if they are in their lives to keep an eye on her. All the other systems systems systems systems systems systems systems systems toe, their their the, the, the, thiii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, they are they are thi, thi, they are they are, they are, they are, they are, they are, they are, they are, they are, they are, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. they are they are they are they are they are they are they are they are they are thi, they are they are thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. they are they are thi. they are they are they are they are their lives to keep an eye on her, all the other systems have failed. And when the systems fail you, going public is just the only thing that you can do.

People's capacity for denial is a very individual thing, and the stuff with my nephew broke my capacity for denial. It broke my parents' capacity for denial. It did not break my brother-in-law's capacity for denial, it broke my parents' capacity for denial, it did not break my brother-in-law's capacity for denial, it did not break his family's capacity for denial, nor did the death of the other baby, nor did the subsequent two-year-long police investigation into her younger daughter. Nothing, I am convinced nothing will break their capacity for denial at this point. And it's again, this is where it's very cult parallel. There are some people who will th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi-nigh thi-nigh thi-nigh thi-nigh thi-nigh thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to to to to to to thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th, th, th, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to tho, to tho, to tho, tho, to the to the to to to the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thee the the, this point. And it's again, this is where it's very cult parallel. There are some people who will not.

It does not matter what evidence they are presented with. They will not leave. Like, and I think they're sort of a Rubicon, right? Where it's like, then someone is so dug in that, like, if they now woke up and were like, oh my god, we've been enabling and essentially participating in this abuse for 14 years. They have to then live with the fact that they've done that and they won't. They'll do anything to avoid any amount of conspiratorial thinking. They're all out to get us, all these doctors at all these different hospitals, four different hospitals that have reported my sister.

Nope, they're just all in a cabal. Doctors look out for doctors. They just are all out to get her. She's just this poor mom. She's misunderstood. Her family is evil. They want to snatch her children. They will come up with any completely illogical thing to avoid looking at the truth because the truth is so horrible. And there was a point I had some empathy. I think in the first investigation, I had some real empathy for them. That has long been exhausted. Another really strong parallel with cults is that the cost of leaving is extraordinarily high. The cost of leaving the cult of my sister, which was the cult of we will believe you no matter how implausible what you are saying is.

We will defend you, you know, in my parents' case, we will financially support you in this court battle. But the cost of leaving was everything. I mean, I lost my sister. I never got to see my nephew again. And I just have a persistent worry about them all the time. And she has been incredibly painful for me and now that I'm a parent, right around the time that,

you know, I'd had my first child, I wrote the novel that was really inspired by that experience, becoming a mom really brought all of that up for me, so you can imagine, right? You can't even, I mean. You really face every demon you thought you had tuck away when you become a parent. It will just come right back out. And you just give us a two-sentence description of the book for those that I don't know. Yeah, absolutely. So we came here to forget is the story of an Olympic skier whose life and career get turned upside down by a family tragedy and then she escapes

to Buenos Aires to reinvent herself. It's not based on my real life. But the family story is very much inspired by my family's real lived experience and the press around that book was the first time that I ever did talk about it publicly. But one thing that's great about being an artist is being able to turn your pain into art. I just turn my pain into man moaning. Man moaning? Yeah, he's like, oh, I don't feel so good. I'm not feeling very good. You know, man flu. Yeah, also what's up with the man's sigh?

I feel like, that happens a lot with the aging male species. Yeah, you know what I've been working on? Is the noise when I get up, you know that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then the women are just like, we just do everything silent. There's a, there's a like an exasperated sigh a lot of the time too.

It's much quieter though, it's more like, hah. And now today you have this amazing podcast. Each season we talked about one case and really dive deep on one case. In the first season, you know, we talked to some other dads that had been through other cases and a couple of other survivors. We try and talk to a whole bunch of people that had experience with the case, try and get as much original interviews as we can. I obviously bring a huge backstory and at the same time it is very different to be sitting with, as you

well know, Liz sitting with people listening to the hardest thing they've ever been through is such a privilege and it's also such a high wire act, right? Like it's such a, you so want to get it right and you so want to do justice to that person who trusted you with your story. So the show is my voice, but it's also many other people's voices and many other people's stories who have been extremely brave to talk to me and find people who need it and hear from all these people that are listening to the show and all the ways in which it's resonated with them. That's incredibly gratifying for me.

Yeah, if anybody wants more information or to learn more about anything, is there anywhere you want to send them? Yeah. So if you recognize any of this from your own life, if you are listening to this and realizing that this has happened to you or that this is going on with someone that you know, you can go to Munchhausen. to support.com. I founded the nonprofit in munchhousand support support. I founded the nonprofit. the thoinn. tho-in nonprofit thoom. thoom. tho-in tho-in tho-in tho-in tho-in tho-in-s tho-s. If tho-s. If tho-s. If tho-s. If tho-s. If you are tho-s, tho-in tho-s. If tho-s. If you are tho-in tho-in tho-in tho-in tho-s. If tho-s. If tho-s. If tho-in. If tho-in. If tho-in. If tho-in-in-in. If th. If you th. If th. If you thi-s. If thi-s. If you th. If you th. If you th. If you thooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. th. If proxy. We are doing peer support groups is one of the big things. We provide emergency funds for survivors. We do trainings, we do a bunch of stuff now. So that has been really exciting and fulfilling part of my career over the last couple years as well.

Andrea, you're awesome. I could talk to you for hours, so thank you so much for being there. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for listening and thank you for listening and thank you again Andrea for coming, spending, and thank you again, Andrea for coming, spending your time with me, sharing your story so candidly. I'm really sorry this happened to you in your family, and your bravery to speak out and spread awareness on this topic in the way you do is quite inspiring. A quick reminder that her podcast is called No One Should Believe Me. And she is the author of Count Them 1, 2, Three, Four Novels. Her most recent one is entitled, Women are the Fiercest Creatures.

Oh boy, ain't that the truth? You can order these books in our show notes, where we'll leave the links for you guys to do. So, yeah, do that because it helps us, it helps her. And so thank you, Andrea, I learned, honestly I learned a ton today. Thank you to all of you who listened. One day we'll have you all over for tea. Wouldn't that be nice?

Just have all of our listeners over for some tea and what are those cucumber sandwiches? I like the cucumber sandwiches. I would love to do that. Podcasting is such an intimate medium, but yet we never get to know you guys, but we're in your ears, mostly solo on your headphones, because I don't envision the family is throwing on the old, was I in a cult for dinner time listening? No, no, but maybe they should, you know, like the olden days when they'd gather around the old Philco, you know, listen to the Pepsadent

Comedy Hour with George Burns. I don't know if it was with George Burns. I think it was with Jack Benny, actually it was Jack Benny. Why don't you remember? Yeah, weren't you like 20? You were a PA on that show, right? It's funny. Ages themselves. today's world. Liz you did so well you had good compliments in you and then I guess that rainstorm just passed over didn't it? The point is you look so good

for 95 that's what I'm saying you don't look a day over 54. You know what that's it I'm leaving. Oh! Oh guys we forgot Tyler don't go yet come back. All right all right. This week on our Patreon, Thursday evening, we will be doing a live Q&A with Diamond exclusively for our Patreon members. So if you want to be a part of that, sorry, you got to join Patreon. It's, it's one of the levels when you join. Yeah, like a cult level. Yeah, it wouldn't be a worthy show without some levels, now would it?

And to our patron and yet to be patron members, we have perks to joining and supporting us. Like this. We have, get ready for it. 73,000 pages worth of Tyler's prostate medical raggers all for free. Yeah, it's a page Turner. You know, it really does help us create this show, guys, so please just sign up. Help us. Please.

You're coming off a little desperate, Liz. A little too needy, a little too desperado. How about I neg them? Whatever, you don't have to sign up, but like, cool people do it. Or how about I reverse psychology? We don't need you. Yeah, I don't, I don't even want to see your name on our Patreon. Yeah, actually, you know what? I don't think you actually have the gumption.

Like my collater said, you won't last six months. I was like, thi- th, she got me there. She did her wrong. You lasted seven. Patreon does help. This little engine continue to run. Thank you to our new members. Dara Harmon, Kristen Smith, and my favorite Daredevil stunt pilot and Hotel Yey, Mark Rosenthal. And we have merch guys, go to our website, click the merch link to get the cool things like hats and tots and yada yada yada yada. And please continue to spread the word, right and review us. We're also working on a facelift over here too, so get ready for that. It's time people, it's time.

We're old. We need to lift up the jowl in it back just a little bit pulling it back get that triple chin down to a double you know I'm saying that's what the beard's for and again we will leave links to the munch house and support group that Andrea referenced in the episode in our show notes next week we're taking a week off what we will be publishing an oldie but a goody and we're blaming Rob for this because Rob, our editor is going on vacation. Lame. Who do you think you are, Rob?

You don't get a rest in this cult, Rob. So because of that, in two weeks, wait, Rob's laughing. Rob's laughing on mute. Rob, we can't hear you on mute. I will be. Yeah, nobody hears. Go back to mute. And in two weeks, we'll be back with our one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to. to to to to to to to to to to to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. Rob. to. to. Rob. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. the the the the the the the. the toda. toda. to. the to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. And in two weeks, so in two weeks we'll be back with our one-on-one cult, a cult of one, yes, with Dr. Nadine Macaluso, who is the ex-wife to the Wolf of Wall Street. Yes, that Wolf of Wall Street, Jordan Belfort, aka Leo. He really

didn't deserve Leonardo DiCaprio to play him in this movie. Fully do not. Fully do not. So you then enjoy your trip, Rob. Don't expect a job when you get back. Yeah, actually do. We need you, Rob. We need everybody. Actually, please don't quit. Was I and a cult is written, edited, hosted and produced by me. Tyler. I usually put a nickname here that corresponds to the show, but I'm not gonna do that because it's not appropriate, Measom. And me, Liz, I have to agree, there is nothing appropriate that we can joke about here.

Iacuzzi. Sound design and edit by Rob, no comment, and social media guru Shannon. Faking Pregnancy Payne. Oh shit, I had to do it. I had I had to do it. I'll give you that one. We'll give you that one. And our executive producer, Stephen, just Stephen Labram. And that's our show folks. I'm gonna stand up and leave now. Oh, yeah. Glad you made it now. Every woman is giving the largest eye roll she has. Purify me. Don't spare my life.