Was I In A Cult? - The Mel Lyman Family PT 2: “Wanted at the Big House"

Episode Date: October 27, 2021

When you grow up in a cult, life on the outside can be rough. So rough, that one might actually prefer to stay inside the cult. When Guinevere finally experiences life on the outside, she witnesses firsthand that one can physically leave a cult, but mentally, still be in it.    And the moment of true clarity for Guinevere comes at a moment no one sees coming. Especially not herself.    ______   Guinevere's Instagram: @guinevereturner   Twitter: @turnerguinevere   Link to Charlie Says: https ://www.netflix.com/title/81023720 Please support Was I In A Cult? Through Patreon

Please note this episode contains explicit sexual references. Ugh, cults. Well, isn't it weird that all of the Armageddon's haven't happened? Yeah. I guess one will one day and one prophet will have called it? Yeah. Correctly. We're like, nailed it, we're like, oh, you're all dead. Damn, we're t joined the wrong cult. This is Was I in a Cult. I'm your host, Tyler Miesum.

Along with me, Liz Ayakus. And today is part two of Gwenavir's story in and out of a cult. Now, if you haven't listened to part one, we highly recommend you do that first. I mean, otherwise you wouldn't learn about the time that Liz had hope shoved up her ass. Yes, that's the main reason. Yeah, or perhaps because it's filled with music and movies and pop culture references. And Tyler singing a lot. Yeah, it is a great story though.

Told by Guinevere, who is a great storyteller. I mean, obviously because she is a screenwriter. But she's able to recall events about her childhood, mostly because... I wrote in a diary every day. Mostly everyone wrote in their diaries. I would...mostly I would write about like the tape we listened to, who arrived or who left. I'm 10 and 11, and this one, the earliest one that I have.

I'm obsessed with the fact that I don't want to hang out with those young kids because they're making me childish and I'm a grown-up. I'm 10. When I was a kid, they used to call me the little 44-year-old. And there was a reason for that. In the family, kids weren't allowed to be kids. Children as young as five, tho, they, to, to, to, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to tho, tho, tho, thi. thi. the thi. the thi. the the the tho, tho, the tho, thi. the the tho, the thoomoomoomoomoomoan, the the the the the the the th. the th. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, thi. And, the th th th th th th t t toda. And, toda. And, toda. And, t toda. And, the toda. And, the the toda. I was that kid who would like read an entire book that was made for grown-ups, but I would have no clue what it was about, but I would have read every word and been like, yeah, I'd read that book.

Now let's catch you guys up. As you recall, Gwenavier is part of a Boston-based commune led by the Messianic Music Mel Lyman and his right hand, the millionaire painter's daughter, Jesse Benton. And when we last left Guinevere, she had just been, quote, bought by Jesse and Mel's daughter Dariah and ushered into the inner circle of the Mel Lyman family. Jesse and whoever she wanted to bring with her would migrate to Martha's Vineyard for the summers and LA for the winters and that was two cross-country trips a year. It kind of went Boston, Kansas, LA, Kansas, Martha's Vineyard. I moved among all

of those places at least five times. So it was like this whole long caravan trip back across the country. I remember it was really fun because they had a CB radio. My CB handle was J9 because I was 9. So you know there was like talking to truckers, you know, and then sometimes we would play like, just J9 over. That's it. I'm so excited to say nothing. Just a k- just press the button and say something. And just be excited when they were like, copy J-9.

I'm like, yes. Gwenevier is living her best life. After all, she gets to travel with the king and the queen. They had a limousine, like a silver limousine with the license plate that said that that said that said that said that said that said that said that said that said that said that said that said that said that said that said that said to say that said. Just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just. Just. Just. Just, just, just, just, just, just to say to say just just just just just just, just a to say to to say to say just to say just to say just to say just to say just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's a a a the. Just, just a the. Just, she gets to travel with the king and the queen. They had a limousine, like a silver limousine with the license plate that said the letter you, the number are all one. That was the point car, and then they had a fancy camper, that was sort of where the adults were, and then we had a renovated school bus. That said Venus or bust on the side of it. I am not kidding.

That was the kids bus. That bus was also known as Jupiter. So it would be like four or five vehicles and we would camp every night until we made it to our destination. And on those camping trips, Mel would often pull out and play his beloved banjo. Now remember this wasn't just any man playing the banjo. This was God playing the banjo. And his followers, they believed he was God.

He was sent to save the world. But not world people. Just us. Again, world people being anyone outside of the Mell Lyman family. You know, one thing I often get asked is do these cult leaders actually believe their own bullshit? You mean their dogma? Correct, they're dogma. I'm 100% sure that Maliman believed what he was saying. Right. Like he wasn't making it all up to keep people. So yeah I guess that makes you crazy because like the

spaces were not going to come and they were not going to bring us to Venus. Totally the behavior of a crazy person. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thii. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. I thi. the the they. I they. I they. I the their their their their the the the the the the their. their their their their their their their their their their their their their. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I th. I th. I th. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I te. I te. I'm toge. toge. togu. togu. togu. togu. th. th. th. th. the the the their their th not going to come and they were not going to bring us to Venus. Totally the behavior of a crazy person. I realize that this particular person defines a lot of who I am, but also it's challenging to me, but also feels like my family. Even after all these years. There's a part of me that just doesn't want to speak ill of him. It's still there, which is interesting. But at 10 years old, Mel was still an enigma to Bonavier. I didn't know anything about him. I mean, we were given these books and we were told the legend of who he played with and, you know, how the family came to be.

Now, as you recall, it was Mel who wrote a book that started this particular movement. Oh, no, it's it's it's it's it's it's it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was thi thi thi thi thi thi that it was that it was that it was that it was that it was that thi thi that thi thiol- thiol- thiol-a thi the the their that's that's that's that's th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. that's thi. that's that's thi. thi. the the an thean teannenene. today today te today today today the the the the the the the th book that started this particular movement. Oh no, it's more than just a book, Tyler. It's his masterpiece, titled Autobiography of a World Savior. It was full of his ideas, although confusing, if you decide to believe it. And it's not terribly written. You know, like it's sort of compelling in like a lot of rhetoric in coercion groups, high control groups. If you want to find meaning, there's meaning to be found. Or you're like, that's just gibberish and it doesn't make any sense.

Here's a little taste. We'll let you decide. All the old rules just don't work anymore. I know. I tried them all and they were too limiting. They were made for a lesser man than me. the. the. the. the. the. the, the, the, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'll, I'll, I'll, and, I'll, I, I'll, and, th, th, and, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, and, and, and, the, and, and, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the.e.e.ean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, the.e. the and they were too limiting. They were made for a lesser man than me. If I have to write up a whole new set of commandments and creeds and laws and constitutions to make people freer, I'll sit right down and lay it out in whatever way best serves that purpose and I will say this is where it's at and this is the law and don't you dare not believe these words or you'll go straight to hell and I'll be making the to make to make to be make the to be make the to be make the to be make to be make the the the to be make the to be making the the to be making the the the the the the the the the to be making the the to be making the the the the the the the to be making up as to me their their their their their their to their their their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to the to the to to to to to to to the the to be straight.... the to be to be the the to be to be th. thr. thr. thr. throwneeats. throes. truea' thracea' thr.eats. toeats. tooes. toeats. toeats. truth, that you must love more and whatever that means to you is the truth for you and there is nothing else to say. I have a few things to say, like for example, what the hell was that?

Mel's drivel, I think they call that. And Guinevere, she is a bit of an expert at deciphering it. In among the sort of rantiness of it is it is it is it is it is thiiiinessinginginginginginginginging the the thiness thiness, it is thiness, it is thiness, thiness, thiness, thiness, thiness, thiensensensensensiness, it is, you thiolioliolioli. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, there is there is, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. th. th. th. thi, th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. There is thi. There is there is only is only there is only thi. There is only thi. there is only thi. there is only thi. thi. there is thi. thi. thi. thi. I among the sort of rantiness of it is you know fight make your own rules, challenge people. I mean what can go wrong? Mel also wrote another book entitled Mirror at the End of the Road. It's more of a memoir. A lot of it is sexually graphic like here I just saw something. September 1963 New York. Moderation is the key. Too much pussy is bad for the soul and pecker, but I'm definitely not getting too much pussy. In fact, I have voluntarily abstained from sex play, you see I can't

seem to fuck without love motivations and I can't fall in love with a pussy, and though I'm told this is a gas and everybody seems to be doing it, I guess I just missed that boat and I miss that pussy. Oh so essentially Mel is saying he can't have one night stands. He needs to be in love to have relations. So he's a hopeless romantic. Is that our first hopeless romantic call later we've covered? Perhaps. It's the first one who openly uses the word pussy. But he can't just have pussy unless he has love motivations. He used pussy and pecker in one paragraph.

Perfect. Perfectly positioned pussy and pecker pontification. Kudos, Mel Lyman. We just read them, write about them, memorize them. Sort of religious text for us growing up. Just like somebody read that to your eight-year-old, see what they say. Well, I bet we could conjure up a Bible verse that rivals it.

Here's Exodus Chapter 22 verse 16. If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife. I prefer Mel's version. It was a bit more flowery. And it came from the heart. Obviously women found him incredibly compelling. He he the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the theck theckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckecke, the the, the we could toe th. th. the the the the the the thoing. thoing. thoing. thoing. the the the the the toe the the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. toe. Wow, the. Wow, the. Wow, the. Wow, toe. Wow, toean, toean. toean. toean. toeooooooooooooooooooooooooo. theo. the. Wow And it came from the heart. Obviously, women found him incredibly compelling. He had 13 kids with nine different women,

all of whom lived together and managed to be fine with it. But it wasn't just adult women that Mel was with. Oh man, not again. Mel Lemon had a 13-year-old girl that lived in a room off of his room. That girl would have to wait on him hand in foot and no boys were allowed to go anywhere near her. Was there sexual abuse? I don't know how weird that got as time went on, but I'm guessing didn't go well.

Unfortunately, the leader wasn't the only one with the teenage servant. Barf. It was just adult men to, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I to, I to, I to, I to, I to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have the the the the the the the the only one with the teenage servant. Barf. It was just adult men taking 12, 13-year-old girls and all of a sudden that girl was meant to serve him and sleep in his room and just follow him around and do whatever he wanted. Like, I don't know what was really happening. So this is from my diary. So it's March 1st of 1979, also known as O2. I am an 11-year-old girl when I'm writing this. So, just making up names right now.

Sadie is a 13-year-old girl, and Bob is a 35-year-old man. Dearest Lavinia, I have a diary I named. This was Lavinia. Nothing in all to tell you. Oh yes, exclamation point. Something Linda told me about Sadie. Well, what happened was Sadie sleeps in Bob's room on a cot next to his bed in case he wants anything. And Bob was mad at Sadie.

So when he woke up, he told Sadie to go stand near the closet and put her face to the wall so we didn't have to see her. She did, and she stayed there for three and a half hours. Just stood there, exclamation point. Bob was terribly mad, so we told her she couldn't go to school. She sat around in the kitchen all day. He came downstairs and asked her what she was doing and she said nothing. He said he hadn't had lunch yet and she said, oh, he asked her nicely if she would make

him some and she said, I don't know what you want. This made Bob furious. He locked her up in her room. Then I wrote, sad, exclamation point, good night. Given that I start out my passage with, oh nothing really to tell today, oh wait, I didn't have an emotional reaction. I didn't understand yet, because I was too young. Like I can't express the injustice. Soon Mel started to fade from the leadership position. He was actually really sick and he didn't want people to see him sick. So he had changed his schedule so you kind of never saw him.

He would be up all night and sleep all day. And someone else stepped up as the de facto leader. Jesse Benton. Once he was receding, she took over. And sadly for the world because the world, because, because the world, because the world, because, because the world, because, because the world, because the world, because, because the de facto leader. Jesse Benton. Once he was receding, she took over. And sadly for the world, because it couldn't be saved anymore. In March of 1978, Mel Lyman died. Although legally his death is not confirmed, there is no death certificate.

There's a conspiracy theory that he just got sick of being a cult leader and moved to Europe or whatever. So he faked his death like Elvis. Oh here we go. Ah you know Liz. I wrote a term paper in college all about Elvis faking his death. I don't necessarily believe it. But it's a very fun rock and roll conspiracy. Well I did think I saw Elvis at Burger King. Recently. I'd have been Elvis. I think you're right. I think if the King were going to eat a burger, it would be from Burger King. And how would he order it? I'll take all seven walbers. Oh, you all got French fries back there?

Like very much. That's really good. Enough Elvis. So with Mel now dead. tho somewhere in a conspiracy theory rock band with Elvis and Tupac, and the community closed off to the outside world, there were no new people. People sometimes got kicked out, but no new people came. People had kids.

So those kids are new blood, but no new blood adults. My generation, by the time they were teenagers, they were like, you have to let us at least go to a public school because like we can't marry each other. We need fresh blood. There was a two-week period where they decided here in LA that they were going to send us all the public school. It was a disaster. We were all just huddled in a corner. We were scared and we were clearly also probably really stood out because we're all these weird kids who only talked to each other, who all came at once.

Sure, she may have been the outsider in public school. But back home, Gwenevier was still very much the privileged cool girl, hanging out with the exclusive inner circle. But there was one woman in the group who had had, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thoved, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thed, thed, tho, tho, tho-nue, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho-a, tho-a, tho-a, tho-a, tho-a, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. thiiiiiii. thiiii. thi. th the group who had it out for her, mostly because Guinevere looked like her mother. She just did everything in her power to trip me up, and because of that I was so nervous around her that I kept plugging up, like I got soap in the baby's eyes. The final straw was everybody was cooking for dinner, and I was tasked to make the salad dressing and I shook the bottle and I didn't close thuuuuuu and I was thu and I was tasked to make the salad dressing and I shook the bottle and I didn't close it properly enough and I sprayed her completely with salad dressing.

Then I was shipped out the next day at five o'clock in the morning with nobody to say goodbye to me. She was sent from Martha's Vineyard back to the farm in Kansas. Why why was suddenly just shunned and sent away. I don't know what anyone's logic was but it was devastating you know I was totally demoted in some ways it was very like high school because people would be popular and then not popular with like one Queen B. It was like you just fall out of favor. I fell out of favor. But all was not lost for our little Cher Horowitz because I had just been living with Jesse and the cool kids for, you know, years.

I was like, oh my God, I'm like such a rock star here. But because this was a cult and not Bronson Elkhod High School, her rock star status didn't last long. You're throwing out references I don't know. Ugh, as if? Clueless. Bingo. So, Gwen have your continued living and working on the farm.

And then one day... We were at the kids' house and then somebody called, they said you're wanting at the big house, which is the adult house. To me, everybody was like, like, can't be good. So she went to the big house, right as the adults were having dinner and approached the man seated at the head of the table. And he told me, your mom left. Her mother, as a reminder, had been on a separate compound for eight years.

So when she heard the news that her mother had indeed left the Mel Lyman family. I kind of fake cried because I thought that's what was expected of me, but I didn't really feel that bad about it. Because sadly, she had no real connection to her birth mom. Then he told me that I had to go. Mel's dogma constituted that in order to be a child in the group, you had to have one biological parent also in the group. Which is part of the mind-fuckery of it all right? We don't value nuclear families, yet you need your nuclear family to validate your existence within the group. So I like really begged to stay in the cult. She was 12. It was her everything, her entire life.

It was all she knew. The man listened to her appeal, then gave her instructions. And he was like, go talk to so-and-so in Boston, so they sent me to Boston. On a plane, by herself. And all she remembers is... Staring out the window and crying. But also, like, working out my speech, hoping that I could make a case for myself. So Guinevere landed in Boston and she was taken to the main house and stood before one of the leaders.

One of the more powerful men. And 12-year-old Guinevere pled her case with all of her might. But it fell upon deaf ears. And he said you have to go now, but if you really, really, really don't like it out there living with your mom, you can come back when you turned 18. It messed with my head for years. And they drove me and my sister, who was four at the time to my grandmother's house, which is in New Jersey. I'd met my grandmother once. And it was there where she saw her birth mother for the first time in years. Her mother stood in the doorway, looked right at her daughter and said,

I never thought I'd see you again. That is what she said. I never thought I'd see you again. I'm like, I'm your child. Yeah, that was a rough. But I wasn't mad at her. My biggest thing was like, see? Like, she doesn't want me, like, let me go back. But her mother refused. She wouldn't let me let me. theat the rest of that year like every week being like,

okay, mom, they said I could go back, I want to go back. Gwenavir now felt like an outsider everywhere. I remember that my very first day of school was the middle of the school year. It was lunch, so I just was walking in there with my mom and meeting the teacher and there was one girl in the class and she just was running out of the room. She's like, the hamsters and the ziggarot! The hamster's in the ziggurat! And I was like, I'm never going to make it in this world. They just built a model ziggurat in the class hamster got stuck in it. But like to make it. Why would a hamster be in there? By the way, a ziggurat is a large terrace compound built in ancient Mesopotamia. Great Scrabbleward. It just was very daunting and also at that time I was starting to look around and see that I for sure was dressed differently. With limited access to the outside world, Guinevere was stuck in a decade earlier. I was wearing green velour bell bottoms, which I made.

I remember they had big pockets all the way, like halfway down my thigh, which I loved. And a blousey kind of thing that I made with, it was white with big purple flowers on it and a tie right here, a tie in the front, and brown boots that toe, their boots that to my knees, and hair, of course, down to my ass, all of which I thought was so superfly. That outfit would kill today. But at the time it was 1979, not 1969, and now everyone had feathered hair and was wearing designer jeans. I was miserable and sad and alienated and lonely and had no one to talk to, and it wasn't a pretty transition. It was constantly trying to catch up and figure out what was sociallyiiiiiiiiii. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thi. thi. thi. thi. that that that that that that that that to that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that that that that. that that that that to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to they. they. the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the. the. theeeeateateaa. theauuu. I today. today today that today that that today. I tod't a pretty transition. I was constantly trying to catch up and figure out what was socially acceptable and how

it could be cool and I was a weirdo. Not so much a weirdo, perhaps, but conflicted. She'd been told her entire life that the kids that were now her peers were evil. But she was used to a certain level of clout from her days with Dariah. So if Guinevier couldn't win them over with her appearance, she would find another way. I quickly emerged and had an identity as like a smart kid, even though I wasn't a cool kid. There was a level of respect there. But kids will be kids.

There was two girls who, I think, felt sorry for me. Like I was like a project for them because because because because because because because because because tham because tham because tham because th. thu. thu. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, tho, th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. So, th. So, th. So, th. So, th. So, th. So, th. So, th, th. So, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. to, to, to, toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. So, too. So, thi. So, thi. So was two girls who I think felt sorry for me. Like I was like a project for them because I was obviously such a weirdo. I learned pretty quickly once I started talking about where I really came from that they just couldn't handle it. So I would say things like to talk about the banjo or like Bing Crosby and I could just see on the look on their face that like it was too weird. They weren't like, oh, weird. Kids are dicks. So I think my biggest project in that first year was learning to hide where I came from and working really hard to assimilate. So at the time I got to high school, to ninth grade, there wasn't a trace of cult on me.

Even though at the time she still did not know that it was a cult. And while school life came with its cha life the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the at the time she still did not know that it was a cult. And while school life came with its challenges, so did life at home with her mother. And why did her mother leave Mel and the family in the first place? I think that she probably didn't really ever want to be there in the first place. And I think that this man that she was with, who is the father of my brother and sister, he was going to leave. And so she saw a way out, like as a person to go out into the world with together and figure out how to make a non-culte life. But it's important to note that just because you physically leave a cult, doesn't

mean you're actually out. Basically, my mom chose to leave with a man who wanted to be a cult, the cult, the cult, the the the their, their, their, their, their, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, their, to, their, their, to, their, to, to, th now, thi, thi, and, to, and, thi, thi, thi, the, the, and, the, tho, and, and, and, and, thi, and, thi, thi, and, to, their, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, to, and, and, and, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the to, the the the the the the thi.e.e.e.ea.ea.ea.ea.ea.ea. too.ea.ea. too. too. too. too, too, t t t t who wanted to be a cult leader and tried to replicate that life that he wasn't allowed access to in the cult, in his own little mini-cult. And he would have pictures of male linemen on the walls, and he would do a lot of things that were as if we were still in the family. The man that my mom laughed with was a horrible,. Thankfully they escaped and they all moved in with her grandmother. My grandmother was like, let me teach you all what a restraining order is. A useful tool to have. And finally, Gwenevere seemed to be

free from the cult, free from domineering angry men. I was going to school back in the New Jersey school. I had gotten a job at the mall and Life seemed like it was going to be okay. And then one day she was home alone with her younger brother and sister. Just blasting the radio. My youngest sister Julie was really cute because she could sing the words to Cindy Lopras true colors, but like she couldn't actually say the words, so she would just be like, true color, blah, blah, blah, and so I was just having a gale time with my brother and sister,

thinking that I was safe, and this man just shows up. The wannabe Mel Lyman walked into the room. And he was just standing there. And he said, it's time for you all to come home. And I was like, I don't know what to do. And so I said, well, I have to go to work. Can you please just take me to work? And we'll figure this out.

And so I got to work my job in the mall. I called my boyfriend. Her boyfriend Brian knew all about the prior abuse occurring at her mother's home. And Brian said... My dad said that you can come stay with us and that he will adopt you. I didn't really believe that it could be true that it was happening, but I said to my mom, I'm leaving, I can't deal with this. Sadly her brainwashed mother moved back in with the abusive mini-cult leader. But Guinevere. I packed my suitcases. I left

and went to Brian's house and I eventually his dad became my legal guardian. He never ever asked me what happened. I think he knew enough from Brian. She had finally found a home, a real home. And high school was awesome, because it was just my boyfriend's dad. And his dad was a lovely man and let me do whatever the fuck I wanted. So like my house was the party house. I was like in the play and the editor of the newspaper and my new persona was way more popular. Soon she graduates from high school and she begins to prep for college.

And before she embarks on this big scary journey into a young adulthood full of the unknown, she thinks about her previous life in the Lyman family, about the camaraderie, the safety. And a thought pops into her head something one of the leaders told her on the day she got kicked out. You can come back when you turn 18. And here she was. Finally, 18 years old.

I don't think I fully admitted it to myself, but I think I was wanting to see what it would feel like. So, she went back to the Boston compound. It had been six years of detoxing the cult from her life, yet she walked in and was like, it's home. All of a sudden it all just looked like rose-colored glasses like it was just really I just felt really at home. I'm like these are my people and then like a lot of them were like you know don't go to college stay here

like you'll never have a work another day in your life and you can be with us and this is where you belong. Now Guinevere's back living with the family and she falls right into step with the group as if not a day had passed. She felt loved and accepted. the family and she falls right into step with the group as if not a day had passed. She felt loved and accepted. It's just been so interesting because I really have been so focused for most of my life

on my experience of this family, these people, that I haven't really ever looked at it as an adult. She had now been living back on the compound for one whole week. And then one night... Everybody was hanging out after dinner and there was a man, one of the more powerful men who was sitting in a chair and I was sitting on the floor next to him. A lot of people were sitting on the floor. And his wine glass was empty, and he just went like this, like handed it to me, saying anything, meaning fill it.

And all of a sudden it was like, click. I just looked around and I'm like, oh, if you're a woman here, you have to serve men and you have to do what they say. And I was like, nope, I'm going to college. One little gesture was just like everything got crisp for me. Yay for massaginy. For it saved her life. Correct. College was exactly what Queniver needed.

She was smart, exploring, experiencing, doing all the things you're supposed to do in college. Balling hits and kickstands. You had a very different college experience than I, Liz. Would you do? You heard essays about Elvis. Yes. Nonetheless, Gwenavir put her upbringing in the rearview mirror as if it had never existed.

But sometimes objects in the rearview mirror may appear closer than they really are. I was 22, I think. I was with my first girlfriend and she heard everything about my life and upbringing and struggles and she said you really need to go to therapy and I was like, I don't want to go to therapy. I guess it was raised to believe that therapy was for... oddly enough, you don't need to have been raised in a cult to feel this. Many people of, thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, thi, thi, therapy was for... Pussies. Oddly enough, you don't need to have been raised in a cult to feel this. Many people of my generation, men especially, are afraid of therapy. They think it's for the week.

Someone once said to me that therapy is a privilege, not a punishment. But I went, because, you know, my girlfriend was going to break up with me if I didn't. Whatever it takes to get you there, right? So, being the great storyteller that she is, she enraptures a therapist with tales of her childhood living on a commune. And she said, this doesn't sound like a commune, it sounds like a cult. And I was like, like, oh, like Jim Jones, Charles Manset, a cult. The therapist gave her literature from the cult awareness network, which is an organization that helps rescue individuals from cults. And then reading all this anti-cult stuff I was defensive. I was surprised.

I was like, they don't understand this life and they're like putting this particular spin on it that makes everyone who lives an alternative life, evil or aberent in some way. But after a year of therapy and reading the cult awareness newsletter? At some point I had decided, okay, I guess you would call what I grew up in a cult. Full disclosure, the cult awareness network, which was founded in 1978 had helped tens of thousands of individuals leave cults. This network went bankrupt in 1996. It was however purchased and is now currently being run by none other than Scientologists. Who use it as a form to convince callers that Scientology is not a cult. Full disclosure it is.

What I would say I grew up in a commune people people would be like, oh, hippie parents, like free love, like, whoa, you must have been a... Now when people ask me where it came from, I have to say I grew up in a cult. And that wasn't necessarily easy for her. To admit that it's all a sham means you have to kind of like tear down your house of cards and start all over, like my mom. She still can't talk th. th. th. th. to to to say to say to say to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to me tho, tho, tho, to me, to me, to me, tho, like my mom. She still can't talk about it. She still is just like, you know, it was weird. There was a different era. I said to mom, you have a college education, you're an intelligent person, like, just start here. You knew

that even scientifically human beings cannot actually live on Venus because of the actual environment. And she's like, it's complicated. Until one does the work to heal from the trau-the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. It the th. It the th. It was the th. And she's like, it's complicated. Until one does the work to actually heal from the trauma induced by a cult or any abusive relationship for that matter, denial is a really great tool. And the Lyman family, I suppose they're done now. Oh no, Tyler. They're still rocking on across the country, including a compound right here in Los Angeles.

It's in West Hollywood. It's a very unassuming gate, but inside is two houses, a pool, a tennis court, the school house, you know, a pretty sizable piece of property. And then Jesse's father's paintings are like hanging everywhere in the house. I live next to West Hollywood. And then Jesse's brother's paintings are like hanging everywhere in the house and worth millions of dollars I live next to West Hollywood should we jump the fence You know we could play a couple of sets cool off in the pool and swipe an original Benton

Or two you bring the sunscreen? I'll bring the ladder perfect. Perfect. We will be robbing this compiling and And next week you will have new hosts and the group is also rolling in it due to a highly profitable construction company. Called Fort Hill Construction, which is actually really successful here in LA. They built an extent to Madonna's house and they do well working on celebrities, houses because celebrities trusts like, we're not going to talk about you and you're not going to talk about us. So weirdly it's like you could be in a call, you could be a celebrity. But celebrities get better tables at restaurants. Naturally, Guinevere has taken a few positive things from her upbringing in the cult,

but one is rather unique. You guys remember how the girls were taught to embroider? As girls, we were never allowed to not be doing something with our hands if we were inside. So, like, those houses are full of, like, chairs, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. embroidered seats. And now she uses that skill for more than chairs. You know the bear in Griffith Park? The statue that's that's right when you go up Franklin. I went through a phase where I would make clothes for that bear, crochet clothes for that bear. True fact. NPR did a story on me actually. If you were among the thousands of Angelinos who visited Griffith Park yesterday, you may have noticed a pair of bunny ears on the statue of the bear that stands at the entrance to the park. At various times, that bear has been clad in later hosen and in a jumper decorated with hearts,

lovingly crocheted by an anonymous yarn artist. Captain Hook, as she's asked me to call her for this story, sits in the front seat with a lap full of crocheted granny squares. So why did she take up this very specific hobby? I had just gone through a bad break-up, so I was like, I can be a come of heroin addict, or I could put all my energy into this really weird thing? I probably put like 15 outfits on thens thens thens thens thens thens thens thens thens thens thi thi thi thi thu thu thu thu thu thu-a thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus, thus, the their their their their their their th. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. thi, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi. C. C. C. C. C. C. thi. thea, tttttttttttape, tttape, tape, tttape, the, the the, the, the, the, the, break up, so I was like, I can be a come of heroin addict, or I could put all my energy into this really weird thing. I probably put like 15 outfits on that bear in 2011. And then other people started doing it, and it was like this whole cool thing.

When she first started clothing the bear in October, little did she know she was part of an international movement of so-called yarn bombers. People stitching, people the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th th, th th. I th th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I the I theck, I theck, I theck, I theathea theathea theathea the. I probably the. I probably the. I probably the. I the. I the. I the. I the. I I the. I the. I I the. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I the. I the. I the. I probably the. I probably theate theateateateateateateateateateateateateatea theateateatea theatea theeeate the the the the the people stitching cosies onto public fixtures like stop signs, parking meters. I like reclaimed my needlework training. And when a scarf appears around the bear's neck later that week, she feels that maybe her work here is done and contemplates moving on. I was just looking the other day and there's a dolphin in Santa Monica somewhere that is actually standing much like the bear fins out.

When I saw that I was like, dude, your days are numbered. And so how does one of your survive today? Well, by dressing bears in Lederhausen, by writing, and by facing her cult past head on. I mean, I guess a survivor is someone who has found a way not to live in trauma every minute. I've found a way to not live in trauma, first of all by not letting it define it to survive me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me to find it to find it to find it to find it to find me me me me to find it to find me to find me to find me to find me to find me to find me to find me to find to find to find to to to to to to to to to to survive to to survive to live in that trauma every minute. I have found a way to not live in trauma, first of all, by not letting it define me, which is a tricky space because obviously here I am talking about it. I think it's powerful to put forth

that people who either were born into cults or who joined them at points in their lives are not people with spirals for eyes. We're just normal humans who get sucked into various things or born into various things and survive them and figure them out. And figure it out, she has. She continues to write screenplays. In fact, she recently wrote the movie Charlie Says, which just so happens to be about the Charlie Manson cult, but focuses

on the point of view of the women who killed for him. Guinevere also has a memoir coming out. We are so excited to read it. I am so excited to read it too. Do you have a time machine? I'm just dying to jump into it and be like at the book party. Of which we're invited to, right, Gwinevier. I'm going to come dressed in embroidered Lederhausen. And I'm going to come dressed as 1979 Guinevere, but I will look like 1969 Guinevere except my hair doesn't grow that long anymore. I can't wait for the party. Please invite us. Thank you, Gwenevier for coming to the studio not once but twice to share your awe-inspiring story with us.

And folks, keep a lookout for her memoir. Coming soon, ish. She's not sure of the release date yet, but once we know it, we'll share it with you. But while you wait for her story, there are plenty of other great stories right here on Wasa in a cult, including this one from next week. The leadership just naturally accumulated more wives than anybody else. It was kind of a confirmation that God saw them as a more righteous order member by blessing them with another wife. The leader of the order, he's got 27 wives.

And in the meantime, if you're a hamster, stay out of the cigarette. Crucifare me. Was I an occultist? Story produced and written by myself Tyler Miesom. And me, Liz Ayakusy. Executive producer is Maya Cole Howard. A supervising producer is Catherine Bert Canton. Audio editor is The Amazing Chandler Mays. Additional story producer is Ari Basile.

And our super fan of this week is Dr. Whitney Blankenship. Thank you so much for discussing our podcast. Thanks, Whitney. We appreciate it. Visit us at Was I &Acult.com and learn how you can support the