Was I In A Cult? - The Order: “Feel Like a Number”

Episode Date: November 4, 2021

When you're numbered among the Lord's anointed, you're supposed to feel special, but for Jeremy Tucker, he was just another mindless cog in the machine of the Kingdom of God. It didn't matter though, he would work hard to do his part, until that hard work nearly cost him his life...   From guest producer Lindsay Hansen Park.   https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/ https://sunstone.org/sunstone-history-podcast/ https://www.tiktok.com/@lindsayhansenpark?lang=en   Please support Was I In A Cult? Through Patreon

Once you get to the end of a section of coal, you are left with a bunch of square pillars that are holding the mountain up. Now you start taking those pillars out. From the back to the front, so as you retreat, the mountain will cave in where you've removed those pillars. And this causes the mountain to bounce and to bang. It's just so jarring. And I knew, deep down in my bones, I knew that one day one of these walls was going to blow out on me. Welcome to Was I an occult? I'm Liz Ayacousy. And I of course am Tyler Miesum, the Robin to your Batman, the Sonny to your share, the Joe Polnenchak to your Blair-Warner. The Jesse to my Walter, the Pippin to my Jordan, the hound to my aearned the hound to my a thr.... to to the to th. th. th. th. th. th. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, to to to to to to to to to to the, the, the, to to the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaa, thea, thea, th share, the Joe Polnanchek to your Blair Warner. The Jesse to my Walter, the Pippin to my Jordan, the Hound to my Aria.

All right, all right, let's move on to today's story. I'm actually incredibly excited about this particular one. Why is that? Well, it's a story that's close and I spent years of my life making a documentary about Mormon fundamentalist teenagers. Mm-mm, tempting, but no, Tyler, I will not eat that carrot. You just dangle. Bite! Not gonna plug your film, Mr. Mason.

Fine. Everyone will have to Google it like the regular heathens do in the world. This particular story comes from guest producer Lindsay Hansen Park. Lindsay creates a popular podcast titled Year of Polygamy, in which she tells the stories of Mormon Polygamous and Fundamentalists. Welcome to the show, Lindsay. Hi, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here on another podcast talking about Colts. Okay, Lindsay, now you have collected hundreds of stories over the years, but when we reached out to you to do a show for us, you instantly chose this one.

Why? This story actually is more personal for me because it involves one of my good friends. But it's not just that. The story is crazy. It's got all these different components that make it like something out of a Charles Dickens 19th century novel. But you know what? I'm not going to get ahead of myself.

Just listen and see what you think. Let's give it a listen. I grew up in Huntington Canyon, Utah, out in the middle of nowhere, a really small town. The canyon is pretty narrow and the mountains are steep. We moved into a house right in the middle of the canyon. It was three trailers pieced together in the most awkward way. It was so rickety that when the wind blew down the canyon it would blow through the house. My mom would have candles lit in the house

and the wind would blow them out. This is Jeremy Tucker, a hardworking crew boss at a carbon fiber manufacturing plant in Salt Lake City. When he's not at work, he's playing darts in a league with his friends, or rock hounding for gems and stones. A seemingly normal existence. However, growing up, his life was anything but. So my mom and dad are raising a big family on almost nothing.

And this trailer was a reflection of that. My mom is a really strong person. She raised 10 kids. I'm the oldest, so the family looks to me for help and advice. Religion was everything in my family. For the first 22 years of my life, I grew up in a religion where it was imperative to have as many kids as possible. I was born into a break-off sect of Mormonism. We called ourselves the Order. Mormonism is best known for Mitt Romney, Magic Underware, and Broadway musicals.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints boasts millions of members worldwide. But what is lesser known is that there are over 400 different break-off sex, fundamental strains and expressions of Mormonism. Kind of like cover bands, I guess. 400, Lindsay? Yes, and Jeremy grew up in one of them, known as the Kingston Group. The group lives communally with a practice known as the United Order and is composed officially of about 1,000 members.

But the number is probably a lot higher, as most of these groups like to keep their member count hush-hush. The order is everything. That's our identity. We believe that we are the ones that are literally keeping the world from being destroyed. Everyone in the order turns their earnings into the church to serve the greater good. Sort of like religious communism. Exactly. And in the order, God has a system of organization that is managed through male leaders.

Of course. These men see themselves as ruling God's kingdom on earth like a tightly run accounting firm. Everything has to be carefully documented and accounted for, and it's all supposed to be done in preparation for the to be the the the to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to firm. Everything has to be carefully documented and accounted for, and it's all supposed to be done in preparation for Jesus' second coming. Every day is consumed by the religion, family prayers, meditation three times a day, Sunday meetings, Friday night, young people's meetings, stewardship training classes, numbered men's meetings. Church starts at 10 o'clock every Sunday morning. My mom wakes up around 7 o'clock to start getting all the kids out of bed, fed, dressed, and bathed.

I just dread her coming into my room because church is so boring and I wish that just this one Sunday we don't have to go to church. But yeah always do. And church was just a mile down the canyon. You have around 50 people that are packed into this little Quanta hut. Elbow to elbow and it's cold, especially if it's in the winter it's really cold. We start off with the hymn and then have opening elbow and it's cold, especially if it's in the winter, it's really cold. We start off with the hymn and then have opening prayer and it's followed by another hymn and then we sit down and listen to last week's talk from the Prophet on cassette tape. The last brother Daniel to speak just next.

I appreciate very much the things that have been brought out this morning. The way some of our young people feel, they feel like that they can go on the outside and do things, or they can do things and no one will know, but you can't do that. You come back with that smell that, you can't fool anyone. I shouldn't say that. Sometimes you can fool certain people, but there are people you cannot fool. This is Daniel Kingston. His brother Paul Kingston is the head prophet for the order,

which means he has a lot of power and influence in the group. And he is notorious among ex-order members for being violent and abusive. Oh, great. sign me up. In 1998, he made national headlines for beating his 16-year-old daughter 28 times before she passed out when she was attempting to flee her marriage. Well, I guess when you're a 16-year-old wife, you should obey the pedophile that you're betrothed to, right? It gets worse, you guys. She was married to Daniel's brother, her uncle. Can you pass me my vomit bag? One step ahead of you, Liz. I was always confused by the order as a kid and any time I had

questions I could go to my parents and I would ask these questions and even though their answers didn't make sense, the thing that I took away is that they were, the certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain certain their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their. their their. their their their their their their their their. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I'm. I. I. the the the th. th. th. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. their. to. their. their. the though their answers didn't make sense, the thing that I took away is that they were certain, their faith was so strong. Well, the brainwashing was so strong, really. My parents were really close. Every weekend we were doing something as a family, camping trips and picnics and going sledding, and then all of a sudden things changed. I didn't see a lot of my dad. I remember asking my mom, where did dad go? It's the weekend. He should be home and my mom would tell me he's at Aunt Becky's. Okay, who's Aunt Becky?

Jeremy and his family would attend church each week in the small trailer, but at least once a month they would show their commitment to their faith and drive to the old standard restaurant supply building in Salt Lake City. A restaurant supply building for church? Yeah, we'll get into that in a little bit. It was a long grueling drive that took several hours. You know, as often as we could could we would go to Salt Lake. We had a tiny little church building that a thousand people would cram into and you had to sit through two hours

of listening to sermons. And here's an example of the kind of dry sermons that these folks would have to endure every single week. The thing that we need to do is we need to, and I'm not saying that, in fact, the thing that we do need to do as parents and as managers is we need to like take a closer look at what the people who are associated with are doing with their free time and help them, help them line things up and include things where they can put their energy into. My brothers and sisters and my mom would sit wherever there was an available seat. I remember my dad sitting on the front row with...

Let me guess. Aunt Becky. And I remember asking my mom, why aren't we sitting with dad? And she wouldn't really say anything. I would walk up to the front row and ask to sit by him and sometimes I was able to sit with them. And from the front row you could see all the speakers up on the stage. The men would sit in rows numbered by their importance. I looked at them as being directly connected to God. We have this privilege on the farm, especially in the summer, where

we have our haycrop that needs to be brought in. Most of the lessons in church meetings were more about building up the kingdom of God through hard work and saving money. The order encouraged its leaders to make as much money as possible and as a result order leaders account for hundreds of businesses. They own everything from small pawn shops and laundromats to global energy companies and arms dealers that allegedly trade with foreign mafias. Oh, sounds perfectly legitimate. I thought Jeremy's family lived in a broken-down trailer. Well, though hard work was valued in the order, extravagance, not

so much. Most members are dirt poor. So the leaders live like poppers too then? No. Male leaders in the Kingston family live in gated mansions. Again, it sounds perfectly legitimate. I mean the leaders are the ones after all doing all the commanding and all that bossing does get tiring and when you're that tired, you need a mansion to rest in, obviously. Obviously. But you didn't hear that for me, these men like to keep up an appearance of poverty. They don't want people to know how they really live. Because then it could arouse suspicion that they're completely full of shit. And using members for slave labor, essentially.

Another common theme amongst cults, working for free or pennies, in honor of a greater purpose, to serve the divine. It is funny how that greater purpose always seems to benefit the ones at the top. And the order does a good job keeping up the facade. Their official headquarters address leads you to a run down home in a dilapidated Salt Lake neighborhood. Sometimes the group meets in old warehouses for church service. Ah, that's the restaurant supply building. The business and the religion are one and the same. That's what the order uses to build the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the religion are one and the same. That's what the order uses to build the kingdom of God as a flow of income. One thing that we heard over and over is how important it is to turn your money in. In our

Sunday school lessons as kids they would tell us even if you find a penny on the sidewalk you need to take that to the office and consecrate that penny. Consecration is the act of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of the the the the the the ofinginginginginginging of donating of donatinging of donating of donating of donating of donating of the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the kingdom. their the king. the king. the king. the king. the king. the king. the king. the king. the king. the king. the king the king the king the king the king the king the king the king the kinginginging the kinging the kinging the kinging the kinginging the the king of the the the king of the the king of the king. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the ti. today. te. te. te. te. the the the the te. the the the the the the the the the the the the that to the office and consecrate that penny. Consecration is the act of donating time, talent, money, and property to build up the church. The Kingston's believed that all money earned should be turned over to the church. I mean at least they do have a fancy word for it. Consecration. I remember one time as a really young kid, walking out of Safeway with my mom

after we had finished shopping and seen a penny out in the parking lot. And I was really excited that I could actually do what I had been hearing about in church. So I picked up the penny and told my mom I wanted to turn it in, and she took me to the mine office, just a dusty old trailer and gave that to them and they wrote me a service slip for a credit of one cent to my statement. And I felt really good even as a little boy. I felt like I was actually contributing to the order. So that's really true, Lindsay. Everyone would work for free?

Well again Liz, the money was being put toward a greater purpose to build the kingdom of God. Which, excuse my ignorance, is what exactly? Well, for the Kingston's, the Kingdom of God equates to preparing for the second coming of Jesus. They need money and weapons when God destroys the world and the wicked. And the wicked is who again? Just you

Liz. Just me, right? Obviously. Let me get this straight though. When God destroys the world and all that's left is this divine order, you're telling me United States currency is somehow going to come in handy? Apparently yes, the righteous will be very well funded in a war against the wicked. So when you get money, it's just money. When you turn it in, then it becomes units and it goes on to your statement. They have accounts or an account that all the members money goes to. Units here on earth are equivalent to one dollar. One unit equals one dollar. But when you die die, you get to use that in your kingdom in heaven. But if you spent all that money, then you wouldn't have any units to take to heaven with you.

And also, if members have to turn in all their income to the order, how then do they afford food, toilet paper? Spare keys, light bulbs, extra iPhone chargers. They've already thought about that. The group has set up their own banking system. If we need groceries or anything, you would go to the office and you would tell them, you know, I need $100 to buy groceries and they would say stuff like, well, do you really need $100? And you would leave with $50. Then that money would be gone for good instead of staying units. So spending money always gave

me anxiety. I felt like I was taking money from God. Can't God be just like America and Prince Amore? Going to public school I remember watching the kids put quarters in the vending machine like it was no big deal and a soda comes out and I was envious of that. One day as I was walking past a soda machine I saw two quarters in the money return. Nobody was there. So I took those quarters put them in the vending machine. Didn't know what kind of soda to buy I didn't know what any of them tasted like so I pushed a button the the the the th the th. the the th. the th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tho tho tho thoes the thoesoesoesoes the thoesoesoesoes. I was the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thoes their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thoes. thoes. I was thoes. I was tea. I was tea. I was tea. I was. I was. Soauoesoesoesoesoa. Soa. I was. Soa. I was. I was tea. I was te machine. I didn't know what kind of soda to buy, I didn't know what any of them tasted like, so I pushed a button and Mr. Pib rolled out of the machine. I just spent these unconsecrated quarters, and I knew God knew, and I'm sitting in math

class looking at this soda, and it looks delicious, it's cold. There's condensation drops on it and I want to open it so bad and I'm trying to make my sin feel less so I read the ingredients hoping that one of the ingredients is not sugar. In the group it was a sin to consume sugar. But not only is there sugar in Mr. Pib there was caffeine. Also a sin. A wave of guilt and anxiety just poured over me. But the deed was already done, so I opened it and drank that soda. And it was as good as it looked. These guys have some ass-backwards sins if you ask me.

Mm-hmm. Sugar? No way. For sex with a minor? Live your truth, Peter. You do you ask me. Sugar? No way. For sex with a minor? Live your truth, Peter. You do you, man. Hallelujah. In the order, diet like money is a religious virtue. In fact, they actually have this special health drink that's supposed to provide them magical protection against harm called green drink.

So it's half of Los Angeles in the order? In the 80s in the order? In the 80s, the order was absolutely certain that there was going to be nuclear war. So the leader had a revelation from God. To make this thing called Green Drink that would protect us from nuclear war. It would protect us from radioactive fallout. This was going to allow us in the end of days to be able to just survive. Everybody else in the world was going to be dead. Okay, but death might actually be a trade-off.

I've had green drink and I can say it's terrible. It's like drinking dirty lake water. Well in that case, can I get mine iced, 16 ounce? This stuff is so strong and so foul. The main ingredient is comfrey, a big, broad leaf, green fibrous plant. The second ingredient is garlic. The more righteous you are, the more garlic you have in your green drink,

and you can tell who drinks their green drink by the way they smell. Packing a thousand of these people into a tiny little church building is just awful. We're supposed to have an eight ounce glass every day, and that's part of the daily routine. All right, real talk for a minute, guys. We love doing and making this podcast, and we are thrilled that it is found a worldwide audience. Shout out to Norway. Shout out to China. Also, America, we love you too.

You know, but this show is not a simple chore. This is a weeks long process for each and every episode. Many, many, many hours of me staring at Tyler go into a single episode. We do other things too. Yeah, there's a couple of things, but a few. Mostly I just have to stare at Tyler and you should give us money for that because... That's at least worth $5 a month. Now look, every contribution helps even a scant $5.00.00.00.00.00.00.00.00.00.00.00.00.00.00.00.00.00.00.00.00. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their to their th because that's at least worth five dollars a month. Now look every contribution helps even a scant five dollars head on over to our Patreon page if you feel so inclined. Guys we truly do appreciate it. It will help the

show continue in the way that you have grown to love. Yep and now back to the show. Lindsay. Tell us about the order. Another part of the routine is plain old hard work. When you are part of the order, you work for the order, and that's exactly what Jeremy did. So when did Jeremy start working for the order? Like, out of college, 21, 22? Actually, it was a little bit younger than that.

As little kids, you are put into the workforce right away. My first job, I was about six or seven at this time, and every day after school, one of the things we had to do before we could go play is cut 10 or 15 pounds worth of grease rugs that the miners would use. I think we were paid 19 cents a pound and every month that 19 cents a pound was credited to our statements. As Jeremy got older, he was given jobs with more responsibility. Older like what? 10 and a half?

So I was 11 years old and my uncle was 13 years and we were in charge of all the production for spiffy ice. And we had to produce enough ice to service. All the gas stations around the valley, we had to make sure the equipment ran. We bagged the ice, we loaded it onto trucks with forklifts and pallet jacks. So I have Jeremy to think for those late night ice runs in college. In the order, numbers are everything, whether it's how much money you've turned in or becoming a numbered man. Being a numbered man is the most important goal for any man in the order.

To earn a number, we have to be good workers, we have to save money, we have to be obedient. Okay, what on earth is a numbered man? So if men work hard, save money and are really obedient, then they get assigned a number. Then you will use that number to keep track of your transactions. So with my dad being numbered 80, my mom's number would be 810 and my number was 8101. Another number that is important in the order is the age of 8. And to us, that is the age of accountability. When I turned 8, my mom and dad asked me to come into their bedroom. I sat down on the bed with them, and they told me, you are eight years old now,

and that means that there are some things that we can tell you, but these things are very sacred, and you can't talk about them to anybody. These are just for our family. They explained that for a person to get into the highest degree of heaven, that celestial marriage polygamy is absolutely necessary. And they told me that Aunt Becky was Dad's spiritual wife. It made everything make more sense, and after that, I knew she was our family. When I would see Aunt Becky sitting on the front row with my dad, I didn't feel left out anymore.

And by not rushing up to sit with him, I was helping keep this secret. All right, Lindsay, what is up with Mormonism and polygamy? So, some Mormon sex believe that for a person to get into the highest degree of heaven, All right, Lindsay, what is up with Mormonism and polygamy? So some Mormon sex believe that for a person to get into the highest degree of heaven, celestial marriage, also known as polygamy, is absolutely necessary. Even today, Mormon doctrine still holds that men who live plural marriage are considered more powerful in the religion. Mainstream Mormons don't really know how to deal with this one,

so they mostly just ignore it. But for Jeremy, his dad was automatically more holy because he married a second wife. In the order, the more wife you have, the more righteous you are. The leadership, they just naturally accumulated more wives than anybody else. It was kind of a confirmation that God saw them as a more righteous order member by blessing them with another

wife. The leader of the order Paul Kingston, he's got 27 wives. You know it's nice to hear that women were treated as three-dimensional, respected equals with desires and needs of their own, not just pieces of property to donate to brainwashed egomaniacs. Yes finally women that know their own, not just pieces of property to donate to brainwashed egomaniacs. Yes, finally women that know their place. Are you taking notes, Liz? Yes, sir. Soon the order started a men's quorum for unmarried boys over the age of 18. They would meet each Sunday and one day... The lesson plan was to become worthy for marriage. This particular lesson was taught by Daniel. You remember Daniel, the guy who beat the shit out of its daughter.

For wanting to divorce his brother? Oh yes, we remember. Daniel brought this tiny little girl. She couldn't have been more than five or six years old. And she's in her cute little Sunday school dress, and he starts off by telling us she's going to marry one of you guys someday. Oh God, here we go. In polygamy, there's a problem with numbers.

You have 50% men and 50% women, and if the leader can have 27 wives, there's going to be that many men who can't find a wife. So, he wanted to drive home the point to us that we going to be that many men who can't find a wife. So he wanted to drive home the point to us that we need to look at these little girls in the order as future wives because that's the reality. The order, unfortunately, is notorious for underage marriages and incest. The data suggests and there was a Salt Lake Tribune article published in 2018 stating that girls as young as 13 were being given to husbands in states where the age

of consent would allow for it. So the order would use these laws to marry many underage girls to family members. In the order, bloodlines are extremely important and the Kingston's believe that they're direct descendants of Jesus Christ, but the goal of the order is to have every new baby have the Kingston bloodline in them. And with the limited number of people, intermarrying is unavoidable and cousins getting married is not really anything to bat an eye over. Pretty much everybody in the order is cousins. There are aunts marrying

nephews and uncles marrying nieces and has actually become sacred and seen as a sign of righteousness. But due to close intermarrying, there's a lot of birth defects. It takes a lot of money to go see a doctor. So most births are home births in the order, and there are a lot of stories of stillbirths and babies dying shortly after birth because of severe deformations. And when this happens, there's no record. The babies are brought to the Holy Spot and buried. The Holy Spot is in northern Utah in a town called Bountiful.

It's sort of like Mecca for the Order. No matter where we are in the world, when we pray, we face the Holy Spot. And one of the most sacred tenants in the order is the thing called the Law of One Above Another. The Law of One Above Another, in a nutshell tells you to obey the commands of the commands of the law of one above another. The law of one above another in a nutshell tells you to obey the commands of the one over you as if they were the highest God in heaven. It's not up to you to question. Ah yes, the sacred science in which all doctrine is ultimate truth without question. Jeremy was still a teen when he was promoted and was able to work directly for one of the leaders, Daniel. So Daniel had decided that ostrich

meat was going to become more popular than beef, so he bought a flock of ostriches. Mmm, ostrich burgers washed down with delicious green drink. One day working on this ostrich pen, about 6.30 p.m. a big thunderstorm rolled in and Daniel called us off the projects and about 8 o'clock the thunderstorm finally left but so had Daniel. So we thought well he's gone I'm sure he doesn't expect us to work anymore. So they all took a drive to a quiet hayfield. We looked up the road and we could see a big dust cloud from a pick up a pick up up. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the the. And the the the. And the. And the. And the. And thrown. And thrown. And thrown. And thrown and thrown and thrown and thrown and thrown and thunder. And thunder. And thunder. And thunder. And thunder. And the the thu. And the thunnenenenenene. And the thunnene. And th. And th. And the th. And the the th. And th. And the th. And th. And th. And the the thin, thin, and the thin, and thin, and the thin, the thin, the thin, the the thin, Daniel, Daniel, Daniel, Daniel, Daniel, Daniel, Daniel, Daniel, Daniel, thin, Daniel, Daniel, thinnea. thinnea. And, thin, the anymore. So they all took a drive to a quiet hayfield. We looked up the road and we could see a big dust cloud from a pickup just barreling down the dirt road. We knew

it was Daniel and the speed he was driving, we knew he was mad. He came to a skidding halt in front of us and he walked up to the driver's seat just yelling. Then he reached into the window and started slapping the driver in the face, over and over and over and hard enough that his head was bouncing off the steering low with each blow. I got to see Daniel's dark side more and more. Instead of being that soft-spoken, man that I thought he was, he had a short fuse.

And every time it happened, I felt like I was doing something bad and I had let down this great man. Sounds like Jeremy was starting to witness some of the group's hypocrisy. Thankfully, yes he was. Okay, so he's a little bit older now, and where are they sending him off to work? In a coal mine, nestled in the hills of Emory County, Utah, in Huntington Canyon. It's one of the businesses that made the order what it was.

At 14, I started working at the mine. I was now one of these men that I had heard stories about in church for my entire life. The coal miners, they were strong, and they were tough, they were brave, and at 17 years old, I was running the continuous miner in an underground mine. I was in high school and kind of scoffed at my advisor when she was trying to get me to plan for my future. I knew that I was going to be a coal miner until God destroyed the earth. The leadership saw me as valuable labor. Dreams of an education and going into a less physically demanding job is not what they had in

mind for me. It goes without saying that working in a coal mine was difficult. Before your schedule shift start, you all pile in the back of an open bed pickup truck. You're open to the elements. If it's snowing or raining, you have a half-hour drive from the shower house to the entryway of the mine. I remember days sitting in the back of that pickup treeway of the mine. I remember days sitting in the back of that pickup truck, everybody huddled together driving up the steep winding mine road and everybody just being covered in snow. You could just see white faces, white hair, white clothes, and eyes blinking in the snow.

Once you go into the the the the entryway of the mine, it's windy and it's cold and dark. So if you start the day off wet, it's that much more miserable. You're doing this hard work, you're putting your life at risk. You were lucky to get paid minimum wage, something like five and a quarter at the time. And then one day, something happened that altered the direction of Jeremy's life forever. It was May 28th, so it was springtime just when Utah is coming alive again. We were doing what is called pillar mining.

Once you get to the end of a section of coal, you are left with a bunch of big square pillars that are holding the mountain up. So as you retreat, now you start taking those pillars out. From the back to the front, the mountain will cave in where you've removed those pillars. And this causes the mountain you've removed those pillars and this causes the mountain to bounce and to bang and to pop. It's just so jarring. The best way I can describe it is being a bug inside of a big speaker, inside of a subwifer, it just shakes you to your bones. As you're digging away this final stump,

you have to decide at what point you call it, because if you stay in there too long, everything will be buried. The mountain will come down. So when you're pulling pillars, you're basically mining until your courage gives out. When we died and went to heaven, we were going to have to answer to God for every pound of coal that we didn't get that we could have pulled out of the mine. And I prided myself in being able to read the mountain so well that I felt like I could go to heaven and answer for every pound of coal that I got because

I was able to usually have the mountain cave within inches of the miner. I took so much pride in that. But on this spring day, like many other days before, Jeremy was pulling out pillars with two other miners. This is the very last 10 by 10 foot pillar that's holding the mine up. And I remember looking up on the wall and seeing an overhang of coal the size of an average car hanging over my head and I remember thinking, if the mountain bounces, that's going to kill me. That was the last blew out, they completely buried me. As the dust cleared, Kent and Freddie saw my hard hat sitting on top of the pile of coal, and they could see steam coming out of the ground, so they knew where to start digging for me. When they unbur steam coming out of the ground so they knew where

to start digging for me. When they unburied me I was face down. They said I was digging but you know if I could have actually dug I would have been digging myself deeper but it was my instinct to do that. I was covered in blood. I had serious head injuries, among others. They said I lost consciousness and I collapsed. They loaded me in the back of this pickup and were trying to race me to the surface.

There weren't any thoughts in my head. There was no sensation. I couldn't feel pain, but I just remember images. I remember the walls of the mine flew by. Then it would suddenly shift to me, looking down over his back, looking at my face, looking at my eye sockets, jammed full of coal, blood coming out of my ears, and nose and mouth. Then, looking up into his face as he was shining a light into my eyes, telling me, you know, stay here, stay with this. Luckily, he did. The accident was bad enough that I spent about a week in the hospital.

I had a lot of visitors from the order and they would talk about how lucky I was that I was working in an order coal mine because if I had been anywhere else, if I had been on the outside, God would have let me die. But the irony is that what they said had a reverse effect on Jeremy. Because in that moment, he realized that if he had been anywhere else, God wouldn't have let him die. Because anywhere else, he wouldn't have been working in a coal mine at the age of 17. As time went on and I convalesced, I was away from church. I was away from that constant 24-hour influx of order doctrine. So all the questions and all the spiritual

confusion that had been building up, I was able to focus on it. I spent a lot of time studying the group, learning about the history, getting deeper into the theology and religion to get an understanding of why these things that feel so wrong are actually divine and right. I just became more and more spiritually confused and then I had a mental shift where I decided instead of trying to prove the order right I was going to just try to find the truth. After I did this things started to make a lot more sense. What I was being told by the order leadership, they were contradictions, they were contradictions, things started to make a lot more sense.

What I was being told by the order leadership, they were contradictions, they were lies. I realized that we were being manipulated and taken advantage of and outright lied to. And I knew that I couldn't live in the order anymore. I just wanted to be out of there. So in retrospect, his near-death experience actually saved his life. But he wasn't in the clear just yet. No, of course not, because leaving a toxic cultic environment often comes with its own set of sacrifices and difficulties.

But if I just left, then I was going to lose my family. I was going to lose my mom and dad. I was going to lose my brothers and sisters. And speaking of sisters, remember all that stuff about plural wives and incest? Oh God. My sisters were of an age to be married off to guys who didn't treat them well as second, third, fourth, fifth wives? And that was absolutely horrifying to me. I knew that I had to do everything everything their their their their their their their to do their their to do their their their to do their to do their their their their to do to do their to do their to do I knew that I had to do everything in my power to help them see what I did, to help them question what they were being told. I started

openly questioning the contradictions or the lies, but I did it in a way that made it seem like I was genuinely confused and looking for answers. I was asking questions to my grandma, to my aunts and uncles that lived there. To my parents, I was trying every day. It had got to the point where I had said everything I could say and it had gone on for so long that I just wanted to be out of there. I need to go talk to mom and dad one more time. I laid my case out to mom and dad. I told them all my doubts. the doubts. the doubts. the doubts. the doubts. the doubts. the doubts. the th th th th th th th th th th th th th th their th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi to thi told told to thi to their told told told told to to to to to to to their their their their their their their their their their their to to my to my to my to my to my to my to my to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to than than than the the the the tho tho thou the te te te te te te te te te an tea tea tea to tho to to to tho to to to to to be out of there. I need to go talk to mom and dad one more time. I laid my case out to mom and dad. I told him all my doubts and dad just he gave me the same order answers again and I remember just being so sad and frustrated and knew I was going to have to just go and I looked down, just gritted my teeth an an the and I was ready to have to just go. And I looked down, just gritted my teeth,

and I was ready to make my getaway. And my mom said, Ronald, we need to tell him. And the way she said it, I knew that they didn't believe. It was like a weight, just lifted off my shoulders. Apparently, his parents weren't as stalwart as Jeremy thought they were. My dad had been asking questions too. He had been a lot further along than I realized. They had also been considering leaving the religion.

And he just said, well, what are we supposed to do? Our whole lives, we've taught you kids that this is what God wants, and this is all we know. But they knew they had to leave, right? I mean, the entire family did. Yes, they knew that. But leaving meant losing everything we had worked for, everything we had built up to that point. Not to mention, they had essentially given the order all of their money over the course of their entire lives. Son of a bitch. Getting the money off your statement and into your hands is a tricky thing. When my parents finally announced they were going to leave, the order leadership to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, the, the, the, the the the the, the we the, the the the the we the we the we the we the we the we the we the we wee we wee we wee we wee we wee we the we the we the we the we the we the we the we the we the we the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee the thing. When my parents finally announced they

were going to leave, the order leadership told them that as soon as they were ready to load up the moving truck, they would give them their savings. So my parents boxed everything up and asked for the check and he just told them, oh, we we didn't get that. Another week, then I'll have your check. Give me one more week, but you need to be ready to move. So the same scene played out, no check, and he did this over and over again. But sometimes, in order to succeed against a manipulator, you have to beat them at their own game. My dad, being one of Paul's best friends growing up, he knows the skeletons in Paul's closet.

Remember, Paul is the prophet for the order. He's the brother of Daniel, the one that... Beat his daughter for wanting to divorce their other brother, David. Yeah, we remember that guy. Yeah, it's the fucked-up version of who's on first. So Jeremy's mother went to high school with Paul. And, well, Mrs. Tucker just so happened to have some heartwarming memorabilia from that time. My mom has a photograph of her on a date with Paul. She's sitting on his lap. This is a cardinal sin in the order.

My parents took that picture and blew it up into an 8 by 12 paper. And on the backside, they put 10 order standards broken by brother Paul. And number one, going on a the the to to to to to to to to to to to to the high to to to the high school school school school school school school school school school school school to to to to to to to the high the high the high the high the high the high the high the high the high high the high the high the high the high school. the high the high the high the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their high school school.o.o.o.o. the the the they.o.o.o.o. the the the the the the the the the the the the the their And on the back side, they put 10 order standards broken by Brother Paul. And number one, going on a date to a school dance, and then number two through 10 had question marks. The implication being that every day a new sin was going to be revealed. So his parents made a bunch of copies. And gave it to my younger siblings to take onto the school bus. As the order kids would get on the bus, my siblings would have them a copy of this picture.

All the pictures made it back home to the parents. And by the end of the day, Paul had called my dad and said, I heard you've been having problems getting your money. Let me see if I can straighten it out for you. The very next day, Paul gave my parents their money. Well played, Mr. and Mrs. Tucker. Well played. And in April of 2001, the Tuckers packed up their belongings, abandoned the dilapidated trailer and drove out of that canyon for the very last time.

The world as we knew it, it was gone. And that was really hard. But at the same time, I felt a hundred pounds lighter. I felt like it could float away. And as he left, 18-year-old Jeremy recalled a lesson that the order taught. A concept called N-value, which is short for net value. It was a formula where we could figure out how much we were worth monetarily to the order. This formula would factor in our hourly wage, how much the business makes off of us,

how efficient we were, and after all these numbers were plugged in, you would come out with your ultimate end value. I always felt like a number, I always felt like a commodity in the order, but this lesson seemed to just really drive at home. For the first time in his life, Jeremy was more than just his end value. Being not just another number, not just another worker, was freeing. Now I could work where I wanted to work, I could go where I wanted to go, if I wanted to buy something frivolous, I could do it. The work part was no problem for Jeremy.

It's the other stuff that gets confusing. After leaving a cult, when you reenter the real world, or in Jeremy's case, enter it for the first time, it's often the little things that are the most jarring. Right, like setting up your Wi-Fi. For example, when Jeremy opened a real bank account to hold his real money. The first time I needed to withdraw funds,

I pulled up to the bank and was just overwhelmed with anxiety. The world was spinning around me, and I was sweating, and I was thinking, how can I justify this? I went into the bank and went up to the teller, gave her the withdrawal slip and immediately started to justify th money thy thi thi thi thu th had to have a car to get to work, and giving her all these details, and she just kind of stopped me and said, well, that's nice, but you don't need to tell me. It's been almost a decade now since Jeremy and his family left the group, but they're all doing pretty great. There is some resentment with the way I was raised, but at the same time all the experiences of our lives that good into bad or what made us who we are today. One night two years ago, Jeremy and I were out in the Mojave Desert rockhounding. And I love going rockhounding because I'm a white girl and you know how we love our tarot cards

and crystal shit. But Jeremy is not into any of that. He worked in the heart of the earth so he knows rocks, crystals, and minerals really well. And he finds a sort of elegance in the science of it all. So we're out there rock hounding one night in the middle of nowhere. And we stopped by this beautiful lake. And on this particular night, the sky was so clear, and the stars were big and bright. They were reflecting like these giant crystal balls in the water. It was stunning. At one moment this magnificent shooting star sprays across the sky and I get all

excited. I say, Jeremy, look, it's a shooting star. Make a wish. It means good luck. And Jeremy sort of laughs and then tells me that in the order, they were taught that a shooting star was another world being destroyed by God. If you as an order member ever stopped believing, God would destroy you too, just like that shooting star. And I'm sitting here thinking, gosh, do they really have to take something so beautiful, like a shooting star, and make the darkest meaning of it? So I turn to him and I say, well, look at you. you... you. you, you. you. you. the the th, th, the the the the the th, the th, the th, th, the th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. If th. If th. If th. If th. If, th. If, th. If, th. If, th. If, th. If, th. If, th. If, th. If, th. If, th. If, th. If th. If th. If th. If th. If thi, thi, thi. If throooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. If th. If th. If th and make the darkest meaning of it. So I turn to him and I say, well look at you. You left, God didn't destroy you. And of course Jeremy smiles that smile that I've come to know so well for him. Because I know in this moment he thinks my sort of mystical hippie view seems as

silly to him as God destroying other worlds. Jeremy doesn't believe in wishes like that anymore. He's definitely a bit of a skeptic now. And so we just sort of stopped talking and just stared at this beautiful expanse of stars, each of us finding our own meaning and beauty in it. And that's what being with Jeremy is like now. He knows the meaning of stopping and enjoying the beauty of a thing, without having to know the dollar and sense of it it it. th it. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He's thi, thi, thi, he thi, thi, he's thi, he's thi, he thi, he thi, he thi, he's thi, he's thi, he's thi, he's thi, he's thi, he's thi, he th. He's th. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He thi, he thi, thi, thi. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He's thi. He's thi. He's thi. He's thi's thi. He's thii. He's thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii's definitely thi's definitely thii's thi's thi. He's thi's thi. He's is like now. He knows the meaning of stopping and enjoying the beauty of a thing without having to know the dollar and sense of it. And I'll never forget this. Jeremy pulls out this piece of banded Jasper from his bag, this

rock that we had found rock hounding. So he hands me this rock and it's flat and it's perfect for skipping across the lake and then he picks up a rock himself and he winds up me and he says, hey, the, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the the the thi, the the the tho, they, their, their, their, their, and their, and I their, and I the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th, th, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo-and, and thu, and tho, thu, a rock himself and he winds his arm back ready to skip it. And then he grins at me and he says, Hey Lindsay, make a wish. As he frees this rock from his tight grip, we watch as it sort of dances over the water in this magical whimsy, until it disappears. Thank you all for listening to Was Iana Colt. And a very special thank you to our guest producer, Lindsay Hansen Park. Park, you can find Lindsay at Year of Polygamy.com or at the Sunstone Mormon History Podcast. And above all, thank you, Jeremy Tucker, for sharing your story.

And for showing us what true courage and survival looks like. And there's lots of courageous stories coming at you soon, from Was I and a cult. However, you will have to wait a couple of weeks for the next episode because our editor joined a cult. Poor Chandler. No, he didn't join a cult, Tyler, because no one joins a cult. I know. Nobody did join a cult holtile, however we are taking our mid-season break. And guys, yes, you will finally hear Tyler and my personal cult stories in the second half of our season. So you have that to look forward to. We can't wait to be back with you, November 24th. With our cult expert and her remarkable story.

It's an insult to the people who join cults and who get out of cults to think they were weak. You're not weak. They make you weak. They turn you into a dependent personality. And we shouldn't make fun of them or humiliate them. That could be you. You know, that could be me. That was me. So, I mean, I don't know. I mean, just about anybody can end up in the cult. Thank you for listening. And remember, when given the choice between Mr. Pibb and Green Drink, choose the soda. Don't spare my mind. Crucify.

Was I an occultist story produced and written by me, Tyler Miesom? And me, Lisa Yucuzzi. Executive producer is Maya Cole Howard. Supervising producer is Catherine Bert Canton. Audio editor, Chandler Mays. Additional story producer is Ari Basile. And our super fan of this week is V. D. Valentina, or V. Trident, as her Instagram goes by.

Thank you, V. for spreading the word and sharing our stories with Italy. you the