We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Being Left Out: Navigating that Lifelong Ache (Best Of)

Episode Date: December 31, 2024

Amanda, Glennon and Abby explore how to survive the lifelong, universal pain of being left out: What Abby felt when she heard “We don’t want you here” – and its long-lasting impact;  Why it is so painful, and how to process feelings of rejection and isolation; How dissociation helped Glennon cope with rejection in the cafeteria;  What parents should and *should not* do when helping kids navigate exclusion; and  The real difference between “fitting in” and “belonging.”  Also check out Episode 179: How to Fix Our Loneliness with Dr. Marisa G. Franco To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My neighbor's nightly saxophone practices? Er, nope, you're on your own there. Coulda skipped it? Shoulda skipped it. Skip to the good part and get groceries, meals, and more delivered right to your door on skip. Hello friends, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Today, we are going to talk about the feeling of being left out. And we're gonna discuss how to survive that feeling. God, it's the worst. It's just the worst.

And how even maybe occasionally to transcend that feeling, but I don't even know. We're just gonna talk a lot about how to survive life as an adult and a kid with this constant recurring feeling that never really goes away completely, does it? No. And I think there's a lot of different levels of it, and we'll discuss all of them, but just the feeling of rejection.

Oh my gosh. Isolation. Yeah, isolation. And also, however good belonging feels, however good being in, when you're like, you are in with that person. You are their person, and they're not gonna do anything without you.

It's like that feels so good. And being left out is the equal and opposite of that amazing feeling. Yeah. Do you have stories? I have one. Instantly, I have the first time that I felt like so hard. Basically, I was left out of everything as the youngest of seven kids. Right. But one in particular had nothing to do with my family.

It was my friends. I lived pretty close to one of my childhood best friends. And so I would ride my little bike down to her house. And back then you didn't really call. We had no cell phone. So you just showed up at people's houses and you knock on their door and you're like, you want to play? And so I knock on Susie's door and she has a friend over, another friend of mine, Caitlin, and they're hanging out and I walk

in, you know, walk into the house and eventually this must've been like four or five minutes being there. They just said, we don't want you here. How old were you? I must have been seven or eight. And I was like, okay. And so I got back on my bike and the worst part is it's an uphill all the way home. So I think I was crying a little bit. And I got myself together because I now had to go

say it out loud to my parents, to my mom who knew that I had just left like 10 minutes ago. So I get home and my mom says, what are you doing back? And I said, they didn't want to play with me. And she said, what? And I said, yeah, they told me that they didn't want me there. And so, I don't know. I just remember sitting down at the kitchen table, just kind of baffled and confused. I come from this family who is like, you walk in the house and everybody's like,

come on in, the more the merrier. I had never been experienced with any sort of boundaries before. You're like, first of all, I didn't even know you could say that. Second of all, I can't believe someone just said it to me. Yeah, yeah. It was really, it hurt my feelings a lot. And I get over stuff pretty quickly, but obviously this one was a big one because I still remember it. It's like one of the only things I remember from my childhood.

Can you feel it in your body right now? Oh, it just sick to my stomach, especially being in a big family. My friends were really important to me throughout my whole life. Cause all of these people in my house, like they have to like me in a way. They have to love me. And so friendship was really important for me to get a sense of myself. So this was a toughie because I was like, I don't know what's happening.

Yeah. A sense of myself. That's an interesting way to describe it because it feels like I'm being isolated or I'm being shut out. But what it gets at more deeply is self-worth. Am I not worth anything? Am I not good? Am I not likable? Am I not enough? It's self-worth, right? Yeah, I mean, guess who struggles still with that

but might've imprinted right that in there. Damn, Kaitlyn. You're not alone. Susie and Kaitlyn. You're not alone in that. Who I forgive, I forgive you. I mean, we were eight or something. Kaitlyn, I don't forgive you.

Ha ha ha ha ha. It's interesting because this need to belong, if you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the belonging need is above the like shelter. Wow. Basic life things. And it makes sense. And I feel like this is important because it's this idea of, we're all

laughing about how, you know, you're seven years old and you're kicked out of the house and it's still there, but it makes sense from an evolutionary. Perspective for millions of years, isolation equals death. We are a pack of people. You don't survive by yourself. So you have to be included in the group to survive. And our society has changed so much, but it still affects the exact same part of the brain. The part of the brain that when you get left out,

gets triggered when they do brain imaging, it's the dorsal anterior cingulate. It's the exact same place where we experience physical pain. Yep. And they've actually done studies where the treatment for physical pain, when you treat being left out, it ameliorates the pain. Because there was no difference when you treat being left out, it ameliorates the pain because there was no difference when

you think about our species of having a wound versus being kicked out of the group. And so it's still there in us. And now it's even more confusing because we have this intellectual disconnect between being like, that is so silly that I feel this strongly that at my office they don't invite me to sit in the group of people. But it's because our body doesn't know the difference. Our body thinks we're going to die. Yeah, our body thinks we're like in a herd and we've been picked off from the herd.

And that's how animals die is they get kicked out of the herd and then they're left alone. Well, humans, that's how humans guide. I mean, like, that's why it's in our bodies so much still, is because this has only been a little blip on the radar where we could ostensibly get through life, quote unquote, independently, which, you know, arguably we can't. I guess the good news for me, though though is that this experience informed so much of the rest of my life because I am so inclusive. Yeah. I actually can probably pinpoint this moment being one of the first times where I started to really be like, wow, I need to be more aware of including

everyone because I now know what it feels like to not be included. And I think though it was heartbreaking, I mean, you know, I just think about all the new kids coming in on the national team and how terrified they were. And I would walk right up to them. I would invite them to sit at my table at the meal rooms, you know, just like being, trying to be almost like kind of overly inclusively, probably a little bit too much. I'm remembering right now being in my, a lot of my early traumatic memories were from cafeterias in school,

but I'm remembering elementary school cafeteria. I remember there were these big like grapes and watermelons painted on the wall. Oh my god, yes. And then if you got in trouble you had to go put your nose up against a grape. That's so wild. In front of everybody you just have to stand. But I remember being at a circle table, I think we had assigned tables and there were a bunch of different circle tables. So you'd have like seven people at, and there was this one group that was in my class of girls. And it was always an in and out thing. Like you were in, you were out, you were in, you were out of this group. It was like as good as what you were saying, sister, as good as the belonging felt,

there was always the threat of unbelonging because every week there'd be somebody who was out for whatever reason. And then it was pretty brutal. Like the group would just turn on that person for the week. And so I was being turned on quite often because I was kind of like on the fringe. Periphery. I was a peripher like on the fringe. Periphery.

I was a periphery person. Yeah. Not like in charge. I was not a ringleader. So there's not a lot of power then. You just get in and out. And I just remember this one day, I will call her Michelle. Oh, you're covering...

Because that is in fact her Michelle. Oh, you're, you're covering. That is in fact her name. I was like, I didn't know you were trying to call her fresh shell. Yeah. And she, she actually turned out to be a lovely person, but she looked at me and she said, Oh my God, your hair is so greasy. You could start a car with all of the grease in your hair. Oh shit.

And then I remember this really, really nice kid named Buster. Cool name. He was at the table and he goes, you don't start a car with grease, you start a car with oil. And I was like, Buster, I don't think that's as helpful as you think it is at the moment.

But I remember in that moment, in the cafeteria, the reason I'm remembering the watermelons and the grapes is that I dissociated and went to play with my imaginary orangutan friend. Oh wow. Who used to... This is a good joke. Hold on a second.

Hold on. You guys. You guys. I've never heard of imaginary orangutan. Have you, Cece? never heard of imaginary orangutan. Have you, Cece? Literally neither have I. Okay, I'm telling you, because I can remember

moving my attention from that table where I was stuck, where they were being so mean to me, and looking up at the corner, the upper corner, where I used to have this friend, who was an imaginary friend. What was the friend's name? I don't know. I just remember him being orangutan.

And feeling like, oh, this is okay. This isn't really happening. I've got my little friend here who's going to be with me all day. This is something. I'm looking at your faces and I'm feeling like maybe this is less relatable story. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just like, okay, first of all, I'm like, is it orangutan or orangutan? I think it's orangutan.

I think it's orangutan. Oh, well. Orangutan. Don't say you didn't learn something today. I think it's with a G at the end. We'll find that out. Can somebody find out for us? I feel like it's the least of our concerns right now. Listen, my point was sometimes the horror of the left outedness feeling,

which can feel like death, can lead us to things that become survival skills in our lives. Like for Abby, inclusiveness, and for me, imagination. No, well, disassociation. So you're... No, but like orangutan become... Orangutans. Wow. Orangutans become bulimia, right? Because if you're like, okay, don't worry about the outside drama. I have my own interior thing that I can control and rely on,

even if it's not kind to me. At least it's not in this wild west. That is fascinating. Wow. I wanted to follow up on Abby's thing, but I feel like we're out of the shallow now. Did you guys not have imaginary friends? No. Never. Oh, God. I didn't. And I think it's cool that you did. I feel like imaginary friends and stuffed animals and comfort things like my blankie. I had my blankie until college. I feel like comfort things that are controllable by me.

I like this. They're adaptations, it makes sense. I mean, that's also very evolutionary, right? You're like, well, I find this to be an inhospitable environment. I will adapt to make it less so. You know who never leaves you out? Because my goal is to survive. You know who never leaves you out?

I'm not getting any attention around it yet. That thing loved me. You were the center of its world. Grease or no grease. I think that this is kind of interesting because we can talk about all the kinds of ways we get left out, how we handle it, is really what this conversation's about.

Because we've all been left out, but what do we turn to? What do we try to use to solve that heartbreak or that hurt? Thank you, because you know what? One way to look at that is that that's dissociation, that's crazy, that's whatever. But another way to look at that is remembering that there's always something within you

that will help you withstand the rejection of something outside of you and that you have everything you need internally to be your own friend. So cool. Hey everyone, it's Elisa Kelly, astrologer and host of the Open Mind original podcast Horoscope Weekly. Every Monday I decode the universe to help navigate your life. Plus, I give detailed forecasts tailored to your unique zodiac sign. Follow and listen to Horoscope Weekly, an Odyssey podcast in partnership with Open Mind Studios available now on the free Odyssey app and wherever

you get your podcasts. I am interested in being left out as why? Why does it happen? Why do people do it? What is the, like, what is the actual nexus of it? So we've all been left out. We all still feel as upset about it when we're 45 as when we're seven. But are we actually being left out a lot of the time? Because often I feel that way. I have like such a strong reaction to even a perceived being left out as I do to the actually being left out. And what is happening at the center of that when folks are leaving people out?

So I wanna tell a story about something recently that happened with Alice that I think relates to all of this. Bobby was on a new baseball team. So there's always like new set of siblings involved in that if we're lucky. If not, it's like really, really, really long double headers with new siblings.

New set of siblings for Alice to play with. For Alice to play with, yes. Ideally. So we really lucked out. There are two on this team. She loves both of them. Hallelujah to all of us. And they're playing during the games. So before one of the games, she asks if she can invite this girl, Sarah, changing the names, but she says, can I have Sarah over after the game? I say, sure, that's great.

So we go to the game, she and Sarah find each other, they're playing, and then the other little friend, Amy, is also at the game. So they're all playing together at the game, and I say to Alice, oh, Amy's here, let's invite her also to come back after the game with Sarah. And she has this kind of tentative face, like, I don't feel comfortable with that. And I just noted it, but overwrote her.

It was like, no, I'm inviting. So the end of the game, I say to Amy's mom, can Amy come back to the house with us? And she has this kind of like really funny face on her. And she's like, oh, no, no, no, she has something. She has something. And it was very odd. I like sense something weird. And I just mostly wanted to just run directly out of the game with Alice and Sarah because I was uncomfortable, don't understand what's happening, feel weird. Everything's weird. So then I see Alice and Sarah, I go up and talk to them and I'm like, hey, Alice, what's going on? And I find out that Alice has told Sarah that she doesn't want Amy to come.

And Sarah has told Amy that Alice doesn't want to come. And Amy has told her mother that Alice doesn't want Amy to come. And Alice is very kindhearted, so this was kind of odd for the ecosystem. And I said, Alice, if we don't invite Amy, she's going to feel bad. And Alice said, well, if she isn't invited, she will feel bad, but if she is invited, I will feel bad.

Why should I feel bad to make her feel better? Fair. And I'm like, this is a very valid point, and I should at least feel equally empathetic to my daughter's feelings as I do to other people's daughter's feelings. So I was like, okay, could you share with me why? Because I know that this girl is nice to you and you like her. And why don't you want her to come? Why are you going to feel so bad if she comes? And she said, I am scared that if Amy comes, Amy and Sarah will not want to play with me and I will be left out. Wow, it's left out inception. Left out inception.

And it was such a revelation to me because, first of all, that she could put that into words. That instead of just being like, no, I don't want to. She was like, I'm scared about being left out. So better her than me, right? And I was like, wow. So I look at this girl, Sarah, and I'm scared about being left out, so better her than me, right? And I was like, wow. So I look at this girl, Sarah, and I'm like, Sarah, Alice is clearly worried about Amy coming because she's going to feel left out.

Like, do you think you could work together to make sure everyone's being included? And God bless this little girl. She puts her hand immediately around Alice and goes, of course. It was so sweet. And then I say, look at Alice, and she expresses that if she knows she's not gonna be left out, she actually would love to play with both of them.

Oh my God, I have the chills. It's crazy. So then I brought all three of the girls together and all of their parents, because now this is like a weird thing. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, so, Amy, you're probably having a lot of feelings because you heard

that Alice didn't want you to come over to our house. And I just want to say that that is true. Alice didn't want you to come over to the house, but I need you to know why. And that's because she was worried about you two playing and leaving her out and so both of you were having the exact same fears at the exact same time that both of you were worried about being left out right now and I think that we can actually solve that all together by making sure no one feels that way and we

all play together. And they were like, oh yeah, I know how that oh yeah, that really stinks when that happens. I feel that way too. So then they all went home to the house. And they also because we have just put it out in center, they were negotiating it themselves for the next four hours. It was like every 20 minutes, they'd be checking on each other. Like, is this good for you? Are you having fun? Do you want to play this game? Because we're only going to play a game.

We're going to all play together. And it just made me think, like, I wonder how many times that the things that we do, the things that I do that impact others, that are experienced as meanness to others, are actually just acts of self-preservation. We think, okay, my emotional survival right now depends on sacrificing someone else's, because there's no way that everything can be fine here. And so to protect myself, you're out.

And I bet that's happening a lot more than we think it is. In fact, your situation, Abby, with your friends, it could have been less about, oh, we don't want you here, and more about, I want someone to pay attention to me. And if Abby's here, my friend is only going to pay attention to Abby. Yeah. And I just want to be seen. Like we all just want to. Hundred percent. And it's so important, sister, that you had the bravery and the courage to figure this out and then talk about it. Of course, I probably went home and I'm sure my mom was probably like, well, they're just mean girls. You know,

like that's probably where it ended rather than trying to really get to the bottom of it because these kids have now developed a much deeper bond because now they're all aware that, that there's this fear of being left out. And so they're going to be much more conscious of it. And then they can negotiate it themselves. It's so cool. I do think we need to have a language for our kids around

like, around this, like there needs to be, I don't know, like a, a scoring system. Like, do you feel left out? Like something that's like very common where there can be like a check-in moment. And maybe there's a room to discuss left outedness because that whole thing is so beautiful and is ideal that the way that scenario played out sometimes and for certain age group.

But there might be room to discuss left outedness with maybe kids who are a little older as not just always a problem to fix. Because if people make choices about who they're going to spend their time with socially based on what they really need in the moment, not necessarily based on whether the other person who's being left out is worthy or not or mean or not.

But if sometimes it's about what I need right now, I'm having this person and not that person, then there's room for a conversation about it not needing to be fixed all the time. Maybe you're not there not because you're bad or not, but because they needed something else in that moment. Do you know what I mean? Certainly when my kids were little,

I wasn't thinking all this way. So it always felt like a problem to fix right away. Like certainly you're being left out and you shouldn't be left out. I think for me, I sometimes feel left out as an adult if parties are happening. I don't even want to go to the parties, obviously, but I can still feel left out because people don't invite me to things sometimes when there's going to be drinking there, because they know me and they know that I won't want to be there. But maybe they don't want to feel awkward because they know

the whole thing is going to be revolving around drinking and they know that if I'm there, they're going to have to have this consciousness about me too. So I am being left out of that. But it's not because I'm bad, it's because they wanna feel a certain way. And so that doesn't need to be fixed actually. You know about the Snapchat map sister, right? So Snapchat is like the way that teenagers now are mostly communicating.

And there's a map literally like you would see on your GPS on Apple Maps or whatever, or Google. Yeah. That locates where that kid is. So let's say you're a kid who, um, you're at home, you look at, and you see all your friends in one place and you're not there. You know that there's a party that you weren't invited to. They all know where all their friends are all the time. It's ruthless.

So there's no more FOMO. There's like, CONFIRMO. Yes. Like, you, there's no fear of missing out. I'm just real sure I'm being... Proof of missing out. Yes. Proof of missing out. It's so intense.

Can we listen to the voicemail from Stacey? Because I think that that relates to what you were just talking about, Glenn. Yeah. Hi, Glennon. My name is Stacey. My question is, the seven-year-old daughter, she goes to aftercare program yesterday that counselor said some of the girls are getting kind of clicky.

And I don't know if this is a problem. My daughter has experienced being left out when her neighbor was with a bunch of friends and she was excluded, so she knows what it feels like to be excluded. And my question is, how do we help the kids learn how to include people that also know that sometimes they just want to play with their two friends? And then if we do teach them to include everyone all the time, are we teaching them that they have to be responsible for other kids feeling any discomfort?

Because I've seen that play out and I don't wanna teach my child that she has to be responsible for other people's discomfort all the time. This is such a good one. I feel it. It's so good. I feel there's some truth in this. I mean, I think there has to be, there could be an and both of teaching kids to kindly

express their needs and wants. There's levels of left out in this. And when we go into meanness and bullying, we don't want you to hear meanness. But I remember when I was teaching third grade, trying to help kids express to each other, I just need a little bit of time with Jason right now. Or I don't like having a lot of people around. It's too loud. So I just like to play with two people at a time.

Like really getting into what I need, so it's less about the other person. But I do feel like when we obsess about our kids being included in every single thing or including things in every single thing, we are teaching them that to not be included is a problem that they can't handle. Because if we jump in and fix things,

then what that is saying to the kid is, oh shit, that was a bad thing. It's so bad, my mom has to step in and fix it because this is unsurvivable. So I do think there's a way of not accepting bullying, not accepting meanness, yes, but also teaching our kids that it's okay to want and need and set up certain social situations for themselves to meet their own needs.

Totally. Because if they're trying to please this inclusiveness, then sometimes they're leaving themselves in the vein of trying to make sure everybody's included. So trying to teach your kids kindly how to not only ask for what you want, but also be in a place where you're not mean when you do ask for what you want. It's hard though, because like we wanna teach our kids so many things about connectivity, but also that they can handle being left out.

I think that you're right. Yeah. I know. It does get tricky because I remember as a teacher, then there's, where's the line? Because there's a, then there's often a couple of kids that are always left out. Yeah. For reasons that are beyond their control. And that's not okay.

Right. Either. We're kind of talking about two different things. When we're talking about inclusivity, that is like a posture towards the world. When you're like, I hope that my kids are people who have an eye for the person who's being left out situationally. To be able to look and see, I can tell that person doesn't have someone in this moment. That person is sitting by themselves.

That person is new. I have the ability to do something about that in this moment, to change this person's moment for them and to risk a little bit of my social capital to make this less of a circle and more of a horseshoe. That feels very different, a different conversation and that's an orientation towards the world and that's a training of your eye to see things that other people don't see versus I feel like I can't ever invite best friend A over without best friend B. That's a very different analysis. And so I think a culture of inclusivity where

we're looking for those folks is very important, but it doesn't mean that we need to always go down the checklist and include everyone every single time when we really feel like some private time with person A. Living in fear of being labeled a mean person is just as awful as being a mean person. It's just your intentions. I'm 44. I still feel like this once a week. And explaining to your kids like, this is just the murky waters you're going to be waiting in for always. And we're really sensitive to it. And our bodies and our minds are designed to be really

sensitive to it. So this is going to happen a lot. And it also doesn't necessarily mean anything in any particular instance. Doesn't mean anything a lot. This person could have just run into that person and they've gone home. And in our heads, we make it a whole story about how now you're on the outs. This is an inevitable part of life. Resolve it in yourself. Think about it when you're thinking about other people. But also, I think we as adults can be less cagey. I just feel like sometimes we,

even with our own friend groups, or even when we're navigating this on our kids' behalves, it's like we try to disappear when someone could have the feeling of left out. It's like we just go dark or go like, as opposed to being like, we're getting together with these people. Do you have time next week to get together? Or, you know, Alice is having friend A over today, so we can't make it. We'd love to plan another date with B. I just feel like we hide and then that makes it so weird for everyone rather than being

direct about it. I think there's a way to explain to kids, because I feel like this way as an adult, what you're saying about a posture to the world of inclusivity. I think there's a way of explaining and understanding things that we have like front yard experiences. Like our front yard experiences are you know times like where there's everybody's around and those so those can be at the school those can be at the neighborhood those can be in the cafeteria the library whatever and during those times we have certain ways of being which are open and we make sure that everybody has a place. We make sure that we are

including people. We look for the lonely kid. We think about who's probably lonely in this situation. Those are like front yard experiences, but there's a different level of intimacy when we say, okay now we're coming inside. You're coming into my foyer. Who are those kind of people that make you feel comfortable when you're in your foyer? You're not out of the way inside yet, but like you get to decide those people. And then you have those people that are like

at your kitchen table, like who are those friends? You get to decide as you invite people further into your home and your life, who makes you feel the most that you can exist the most. You actually don't have to exist the most in the front yard. Like that's a different communal experience, but then you get to decide who you invite further and further in.

And we can't and probably shouldn't force kitchen table experiences on our kids or ourselves with people that make us feel like we have to abandon ourselves, not to abandon. Yep. In the front yard it's a little bit different. It's good. But I think when we force it on them at the kitchen table they are learning to then abandon themselves. Exactly. So that they don't abandon the other person and I'm not sure that's correct. I think there is a compromise honestly. I have learned that. I don't walk around talking about orangutans in the front yard all the time. I think there is a compromise, honestly. I have learned that. I don't walk around talking about orangutans

in the front yard all the time. I think there is a different me that is in the front yard. I don't want to have to care that much about, you know, worrying about everyone's at the kitchen table. I want to just be able to be me. And I think that's probably what kids are saying. ["The Last Supper"] Honestly, sister, the reason why your situation with Alice worked out is because the adult in the room

got the kids together and figured out how to communicate this stuff to the kids in a way got the kids together and figured out how to communicate this stuff to the kids in a way where they could hear it and then they could actually negotiate it afterwards. But also worked out because Alice was like, super honest, I do really want to be with those both of these people. I just want both these people to want to be with me. So that's a very different type of story. If she had been like, actually, I think Sarah's kind of a jackass, this would have been not that outcome.

And then it would have been a lot hairier. I just think that's one aspect of things, which I think often the quote unquote mean girls, the quote unquote clicky things are more about like, I am so desperate to ensure that I am not the one on the outs that I'm willing to go along with anything that will keep me on the ends. If it means keeping that person out to keep me in, I'm willing to do it because it's such a survival instinct. We should do exactly what you did with the little ones,

as much as possible. But I think what we learn as they grow is that trying to fix everyone's left outedness is a little bit like rearranging chairs on the Titanic. Like left outedness is coming no matter what. It's like what you said at the beginning. There are some things in life that are so beautiful that they, by nature, have an opposite that comes with it.

It goes back to me telling my little one like, okay, that's great you're in love, but you're going to get crushed. Like, you know, love is so amazing. so amazing and it's terrifying because it has this, this opposite, which is loss or expressing yourself and showing yourself is so beautiful and amazing, but oh my God, it has this opposite thing, which is criticism, which you will experience if you have the beautiful thing or go and explore. But then there's this thing called homesickness if you do, or, you know, try, try, try, but then there's this thing called homesickness if you do. Or, you know, try, try, try, but then there's this thing called failure or grow up. But then there's this thing called nostalgia

or look for friendship and belonging and that delicious feeling. But there's this thing also called left outedness and disconnection. And it's like, we can fix it in a million different ways, but that only lasts for so long. And then there's this time where we have to just say, oh my God, I can tell you're feeling that thing. Let me tell you about when I feel that thing. Because you just have to meet each other there.

There's no fixing it. It's coming back every other month for the rest of your damn life. And it might be sometimes because they just forgot you, or it might be because they actually don't like you. It exists as the shadow side of connection. And so we just meet each other there. And that is because you are human.

Exactly. It will feel so overwhelmingly awful. And it's supposed to. Let me explain to you why. There's nothing particularly wrong with you. And there is nothing particularly fragile about you that you feel this awful. It feels that same way to me. Happened to me last week.

I think that is the answer. And it's also the answer when they do it to other people and other people get really upset. It's like, oh, that's what they were feeling. It doesn't mean you should have done anything different. It means that they're having this huge, strong reaction because their need to feel connected is just as strong as yours. So you can understand why they're having that reaction. Remember last week when it happened to you?

It's so visceral and we experience it so much that when we see our kids go through it, my heart starts racing, my breath starts, like it feels like I have to fix this. Anything that happens. You know, if I just see it happening in front of me, I am done. And so, and that's a very real thing too. But there's these studies that show that if you do the totally natural thing where you rush in and try to fix it, you know, like you get on your phone and start texting and be like, don't worry, I'll just set up a play

day for tomorrow. Don't worry, I'll figure all this out. That they already have shame and embarrassment when this happens to them. And one of the reasons they don't tell us about it is that they don't want us to think that they're incapable of making friends. Exactly. They feel like they're incapable of making friends already. And so they're already ashamed and they're already embarrassed.

But when we rush in as if this is a crisis and a problem, then they're like, see? Confirmed. This is a big problem that I had this happen to me. And this is something very wrong, as opposed to like, ah damn it, really? That sucks. I'm so sorry. Tell me about it. And then I'll tell you about when it happened to me last week. We add shame by fixing it, because what they knew before was, this almost feels unbearable, I'm so sad. And then we can either meet them there and say,

oh my God, I totally know this unbearable feeling. I've had it, here's when I had it. Then we're both just sad together. But if we add, oh my God, I'm calling Johnny's mom, then we add, oh, you should be ashamed of this. This is so bad that your mom has to fix it. That's how bad it is. Oh God, it's so hard when your kids go through the things

that trigger you from your trauma. And I think that that's what this is like. We're trying to fix this thing because we don't want them to experience possibly the most human experience. This is really like that paradox. It's just so human. And so let's teach them how to work through their feelings of this because then they won't

attach their worthiness to whether they're getting included or not. If they're able to actually work through some of it. And it's all such a bandaid because truly we're never going to save them from this feeling. Nope. That's what I mean. So really all we're doing is having a full on panic attack anytime we see it about to happen and being like, not today Satanists! And we try to get in front of it.

But it's just leaving it for another day. Because like what you said. Satan's like, okay, tomorrow then. Right, it's like at the table at lunch. If today is not their day to be left out, tomorrow will be. And we are just so desperate for it not to be today that we're doing the same shit

the kids at the table are doing. Or like, whatever it takes to make it not my day. Exactly. Instead of just being like, whatever it takes to make it not my day. Exactly. Instead of just being like, today's her day. I feel like we've been talking a lot about kids and that's like a self-protection. We're like, oh these poor kids. I know. I think we should talk about this happening in adulthood because really the loneliness, we talk about it as kids because it's easier in some ways, even though we pretend like it's harder, but the spikes in loneliness actually happen in the 20s, in the mid 50s,

and in the late 80s. The kids are not as lonely as we project them to be. We are as lonely as we are making them. Believe they are. But I do think if we talked about it differently earlier, we would understand it differently as adults. Exactly. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think if we didn't avoid it like the plague when we were little, it wouldn't be something that felt so devastating as adults.

It's why... And reverse. I don't see them as separate. If we could understand it, if we could talk about it, about ourselves now, as this is inevitable and sucks and you just have to endure it, then we would probably be less likely to try to futilely save our kids from it. Yes. So let's hear from Danielle. My name from Danielle. When I was a little kid, if I didn't get invited somewhere or anything like that, I

think people kind of say, oh, that's normal. She's little and she's heard by that. But I still feel that way as a grown 20 something year old adult. I'm 27 going on 28 this year. There's just, I guess you could say, there's many girls at work and I used to be friends with them and now I'm not and believe me I don't want to be but it's just I'm still human and I still just want to be included and feeling left out is probably the worst feeling in the world. I just wanted to call you guys and say

thank you for the pod and that I love you all. Thank you. Danielle. I love Danielle. I have a whole story in my mind about Danielle already. Fuck those bitches at work. Okay. Why would I go with that? Sorry, but you can cut that if you want.

Yeah, I love you. I know. That just. Yeah. And I love Danielle. Okay. So here's what I'm thinking about Danielle. I love Danielle. I feel like she probably had her own orangutan as a kid. I'm with Danielle. So she says that she was in with the quote,, mean girls at work and now she's not, which means that probably Danielle tried to be in with the mean girls.

Whatever that means, I'm not claiming that term. I know it's problematic. I'm just responding. So, I was thinking when Danielle was talking about what Brene talks about, Dr. Brene Brown, about the difference between belonging and fitting in, and that most of us just try to fit in, which means we look at a group and we say, okay, what are they doing? What are they wearing? How are they talking?

And then we change ourselves to kind of be like that, to be with them. And so when we do that, we get like a false sense of belonging. It's not real belonging. It's fitting in. Belonging, you have to be yourself. You have to truly be accepted for who you are to have real belonging. So fitting in is just as much self abandonment as anything else. You're still alone. It's a fake version of you. And you don't get the benefit because you're chasing that belonging.

But what her research says is that you actually don't even get the gratification of that belonging because you know that you're not being your full self. So that doesn't count as being seen. Exactly. So it's like a double whammy because if you didn't try to fit in, at least you'd have yourself. At least you'd have your, you wouldn't have abandoned yourself. But the fitting in is a double whammy because you've abandoned yourself

and you're still not getting the belonging. So it sounds like maybe Danielle tried to fit in and then probably she couldn't fit in anymore. And so she probably messed up the status quo of that group and got rejected one way or another, whether that happened in big ways or small ways. So now she's on her own again outside the pack. And she looks at the pack and she still feels sad. She still feels the sting of left outedness, even though she was in and now she's not in

for probably authenticity reasons. So I do think that there's different levels of left outedness. And one of them is like what we would have referred to in the Dr. Becky episodes as it's growing pain. Because she's looking back at that group and she knows she feels a sting, but she knows she doesn't want to be back with them. So it's discomfort, but it's true good growing pain discomfort because it's not self abandonment. Like, for example, I feel left out sometimes now because I've made these decisions for my recovery

to not do professional things. And so I look at my Instagram or whatever, and everybody who's in my lane for the last year is doing all of these things all the time. And I'm never there and I'm never doing the things. They're in important places and I know that I'm not supposed to be there. I know that I have made a decision that is best for me and that doesn't change the fact that I look at those things and I feel like I'm becoming irrelevant and everyone's going to forget about me. But it's a different version

because I know I'm not self abandoning. So I think that Danielle is feeling a version of growing pain. That is such an important point you just raised because I think the more we talk about this as just a very natural consequence of experiencing a thing. It doesn't get confused with, oh no, I feel so shitty, that means I'm supposed to be in

that group. Oh no, I feel so shitty, that means that I'm missing out on a place where I should be. It just means you feel so shitty because that is a natural consequence to any perception of you not belonging. Like they did these studies where the whole like brain imaging stuff, where it was a video game, okay? So two bots on a video game and you're the third bot and you're in the video game throwing

the frisbee to each other among the three of you. Then the scientists change the setting. So the other two bots only throw the frisbee to each other. You're on a freaking video game. You don't even know who these people are. You don't care about frisbee. And the brain's reaction is the same as an interpersonal real life situation of being left out. It is just a natural reaction. You're now jealous of two bots throwing a pretend bot frisbee back and forth. It doesn't mean you're

supposed to be in that group. It doesn't mean you're supposed to be on that stage. It's just a physiological reaction that is inside of you. Yeah, you're just a little, it's like, it's a little bit of heartbreak and that's not a problem. That's being human. Danielle is just experiencing being a human being who is made for love and connection

and sometimes looking at it and feeling like it's not her day. Yeah, I just want to say, because we're kind of making up the story what we think has happened with Danielle at work. No, I know Danielle. But going along the lines of this story, Danielle, I think that one thing that I've learned

with all the teams that I've been on, because there's a lot of cliques and groups in every work environment in the world. And some of them you're in on and some of them you're out on. And I think that what I have found with the teams that I've been on in my life is if you just don't abandon yourself, you will find someone that also doesn't do that. They're going to be the people that make you feel good about yourself, that don't make you feel like you have to change or warp into something that isn't true to you. So this might also be like an opportunity. I know it's heartbreaking. I'm not trying to bright side this, but this could be a kind of a unique opportunity for

you to look around and find maybe somebody that I don't know. You normally wouldn't go sit and have lunch with, or you normally don't talk to on a regular basis. Um, strike up a conversation. And also, I'm so sorry. And I really want to kick those bitches out. So this is a good time to say that there are two responses to, to this kind of isolation. And one is aggression. Yeah. And so that is Abby's response where it is like, forget these people, I will

see them in hell. The second one is the acclamation. So where you're like, okay, I will just make this work no matter what. I'm going to just acclimate it. And that's the one that Glennon said. I'm thinking about Danielle and what you're saying, Abby, and there's this strategy that the research suggests for kids that instead of a family tree, that when your kid is feeling some isolation, to make a friend tree, whatever you see the most, which is why there's always, you know, the school isolation or the work isolation for adults, weighs so heavy because if you're only looking at that one group all the time, you feel like you don't have any connection because that's where you spend

most of your time. But they said that kids should, and this is probably a good idea for adults too, is to make a friend tree. You know, like your friends that you've had for a long time, your friends that might be in the neighborhood, or even potential friends. People that you see on your walks, people in the neighborhood, and people you're interested in, and just make the tree and then sit down and figure out,

oh, well, there's actually a lot of folks around, not just this one branch of the tree that isn't working for me right now. And how can I, instead of using my attention to perseverate on this one branch that is not sturdy right now, how can I invest in these other branches? Because really, the connection is what you need. You don't need connection to those people on that branch. You just need to find your connection to some place and more often not it's there. We're just not looking at that branch. You just need to find your connection to some place. And more often not,

it's there. We're just not looking at that branch because it's not the branch that is activating the pain center of our brain and at top of mind. Yep. Also buy a chainsaw and lop off the branch of the mean girls. Well burn it in your witch fire. That's what, you know, popularity. Like everybody, we think we're going to get over that in elementary school, but no. In every office and every whatever, there's like a group that would be the equivalent of the popular group. That just means power.

Those are the people that are wielding power in one way or another. And usually the way people wield power in social situations is there's somebody that gets to decide through the way they look, through what they say, who's in and who's out. That's how to wield power. That's actually not real. The person who's deciding, I have the power that you're in or out.

We can look at those people and just say, no, thank you. It's like obsessing about the one, the person that says the one mean thing because you want to change their mind. You want to change. So then you give all of yourself to the person that's the least worthy of yourself. If there's one person rejecting you in a spot,

I think what you're saying is so important. There's probably 20 other people around that if you just turned your head, you know the Jesus thing that's like, if somebody slaps you, turn the cheek? Turn the other cheek. Turn the other cheek. I always think about that in terms of when you turn your head, you're looking at something else. It's not necessarily turn the other cheek so they can slap you again.

Jesus is like, turn the other cheek so you can see Barbara over there eating lunch by herself and instead of, you know, focusing on Tanya over there who keeps slapping you. Turn the other cheek and find yourself someone who's not going to slap you. Exactly. Exactly. We don't have to give people that power all the time like we did when we were in third grade. That's right. You know, we can just say actually there's a million portals to connection and friendship. And you might be teasing me by opening and closing this little barn door that you have, but I don't have to try to get in your barn door anymore because there's a lot of other

doors. I think that the idea too that we're giving our worthiness to this group of mean girls and like, right, exactly. It doesn't make logical sense, but we still want it. It's like the freaking moth to a flame. And yet it still feels that bad. Yeah. So like when our kid comes home and says that that happened, it doesn't help to be like, fuck those mean girls. And when Danielle has this happen, I mean, it

probably feels good to have Abby Wambach say, fuck those mean girls. But it just is that shitty. And there's no fix to it. Oh God, that sucks so bad. But I do need the fuck, I mean, I'm, I need all the things. When I feel really left out, I want a good friend or Abby or whoever to tell me all of those things. Like, I want to hear that there's other portals and that I don't have to, but I also want to hear, fuck those mean girls. I want, I like people who give me the whole, um, kitten caboodle of responses. I feel like we need all of it.

We need the mad, we need the, this isn't about your worthiness. We need the everybody experiences this. This is just the shadow side of connection. Because all of it is true. Every single piece of it is true. As long as it's not screw them, forget it. They're terrible.

As if that dismisses the deep pain center of your brain where it's like they are not worth it and also this does feel that bad. Or worse yet, they are worth it because not all people that exclude you are mean girls. And not all people that exclude you are terrible. No, but sometimes you need somebody to have your, the strong part of your back when you're experiencing this left outedness and this loneliness. I got broken up with one time and my mom, she heard me crying and she came in to the room and said, you know, she doesn't deserve your tears.

And this was a big deal for her to say, cause it was about a girl as many years ago. And I needed my mom to be like, fuck that bitch. You know, like I needed her, she said it nicer. But I needed that, I needed somebody to solidify a little bit of like, some sort of power back in me, because you lose it, and then somebody else can help and give it to you.

And then that girl's mom could have been somewhere going, honey, you know this isn't meeting your needs. Like it's the right thing to do. But it doesn't matter. It could be right for everybody. You just need your little crew to have all of the reactions for you. So that your parts can relax.

Cause you're like, oh, I've got it all covered. I've got my crazy mom. I've got my reasonable dad, whatever it is. You know? Yeah, it's actually really helpful. And the reason why that felt so good to you is what your mom was doing replicated what she just did to you. Your mom saying, fuck that girl means she's out.

She is out of our circle. She is done for us. And it's like, she kicked you out of your circle, then your mom kicks her out of y'all circle. And now you're like, even Steven lady, you're not welcome here. Balancing the scales. Balancing the scales. You can't leave me out, I left you out.

You can't fire me, I don't even work here. Oh y'all, I don't know. It just comes back to the beautiful thing, doesn't it? It's like these things are, and both, and being made as a human being who so badly wants belonging and connections, there's going to be moments of such beauty with that, and there's going to be moments that feel so cold. We're not going to get it all the time. Yeah. Sadly. And it's just universal.

It happens every day. And I don't think you'll ever arrive at a day where that doesn't happen to you anymore. It's not like a maturity level. Just like a couple days ago, I was invited to this place. I felt so special to be invited. And it was like seven women and then four of them rolled up in a car, all in the same car. At the same time, I rolled up by myself in another car.

And I was like, Oh, I mean, it just happens. I just got out of the shower just now. And I thought Tish and Glennon were in the bedroom, chit chatting. And I was like, what are you guys talking about? I thought Tish and Glennon were in the bedroom chit chatting. And I was like, what are you guys talking about?

And I run in there and Tish goes, mom's not even here. And I was like, oh, I like felt left out for no reason. There was no left out in this. That's what I like about the pod squad. It's there's so much room. Everybody can be here. Yeah. And nobody's here. Yeah. It's like's so much room. Everybody can be here. And nobody's here. It's like my ideal scenario.

Yeah, you have to click. You are choosing to be here and everybody's invited. You can sit with us. After Danielle takes her seat. Danielle gets the first seat. Danielle gets to sit. That's right. Danielle sits wherever the hell she wants.

I would like for the Pod Squad with this topic to just talk to us. Like, how do you deal with left outedness? What are you hearing in this that we're missing? How do you talk to your kids about it? How do you decide when you get to include, exclude people? Just talk to us. I love this topic. 747-200-5307. I need to know some of your regrets in trying to handle some of your left outedness for

you or your children. Yes, please help us. Just be selfless and tell us what you did so that we don't have to walk the same lonely valley. Not because it's funny. I just think that it's important that we learn from each other of maybe some of the things of what not to do in these circumstances. And best case if it's funny. Yeah, best case. We love you, Pod Squad.

You belong with us. We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, Bye. because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign

in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.