We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How to Know if You’re in a Cult with Tia Levings (Pt. 2)

Episode Date: December 12, 2024

370. How to Know if You’re in a Cult with Tia Levings (Pt. 2) Glennon, Amanda, and Abby welcome back Tia Levings for part two of this amazing conversation on her experience leaving a high control Christian Fundamentalist cult. Tia shares her experience leaving the church and her husband and offers advice for others in a similar situation.  Discover:  -The life-saving power of women sharing their stories—and why it threatens patriarchy -How she finally heard her own voice—and how you can find yours, too -Why people crave fundamentalism—and a solution they’re searching for -Tia’s life-saving advice for women escaping abuse or high-control groups More on Tia: Tia Levings is the New York Times Bestselling author of A Well-Trained Wife, her memoir of escape from Christian Patriarchy. She writes about the realities of Christian fundamentalism, evangelical patriarchy, and religious trauma. She also appeared in the hit Amazon docu-series, Shiny Happy People. Based in North Carolina, she is mom to four incredible adults and likes to travel, hike, paint, and daydream. Find her on social media @TiaLevingsWriter. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Because Pod Squad, you are so lucky. We are back with Tia Levings, and if you haven't listened to our previous conversation, go back and do that. In that conversation, we talked about the high control religious group that Tia became a part of, what it did to her and her family and her heart and her mind and her body and how she got free from it and how all of that is a map sort of for how we can navigate this moment in this country. So let us begin with, I mean Tia, this quote from your book, you said this, you said,

Today it hit me when he hit me, blood shaking in my brain, maybe there wasn't a savior coming. Maybe it was up to me to save me. Can you start for us with the night? What was the moment? How did we decide enough was enough? And what happened next? Yeah, my final escape was a making of about seven years of trickle and then a final snap.

I think that I honor those seven years. There's a lot of pushback against women when they're in violence of why didn't you just get out. I really hope my story paints a very vivid picture of why women don't just get out. Also, I'll just tack on here some top reminders of go Google how recently women have had any kind of rights to no fault divorce, which is on the line right now.

Getting your own finances, your own credit card. There's a lot of reasons, especially societally, why women don't just get out. And so it took me about seven years to get my body free. My mind was a process. If we wanna talk about that specific night, what happened is my children were in total and complete jeopardy.

I had read a story in People Magazine about a murder suicide, and I knew that we would be the next one. I could see our faces on the cover of People Magazine as this tragic mountain couple. And then that night happened. I had said I was gonna leave. He had shown all the signs that they tell you to look for

in extreme violent situations. And there's some animal cruelty and animal death in my story. There's the complete breakdown of somebody that's having a psychotic break. That was definitely happening coupled with this environment when he needed external structures and we had been excommunicated. I was excommunicated

from our church, which is a spanking cult, for writing in my own name. I refused to put my writing online in my husband's name and they excommunicated me for it. And without that church... Wait, hold on a second. Hold on a second. They wanted you... Okay, wait a second. Yeah, we skipped a step. It's okay. Before this night, the freedom is bubbling. Yes. Am I right to say that? The freedom, well, it starts with Clara.

The seven year mark starts with Clara, right? It does. Do you want to take it, is it okay to start with Clara? It absolutely is. My crack started with grief. Grief is what cracked me open. And I talk about Clara all the time. She's the only one of my children whose name I didn't change. She liberated my heart. She broke

me open. I had never lost anyone before I lost my daughter. She died in 1999 and she created a pure heart in me. She broke me open. She made this person I could not contain. I could not put myself back into this T-shaped box that I had tried so hard to craft so that they would find acceptable. I started to question literally everything. It's important that I'd spent a couple months in the hospital around women who'd gone to school, became doctors, had careers, had options, parents from all kinds of walks of life. I had this huge step out of my worldview through Clara's life. And during her death, after her death, I could not pretend that she did not exist, which is something they do in

quiver-full environments. You just move on to the next baby. You're sad for a little while. You're allowed to be sad, but then you're supposed to get over it and give God the glory and move on. And I couldn't do it. So it really unleashed this whole streak in me to honor her and in so honoring her life, I had to become the kind of mother I wanted her to have. And so that meant growth areas that just wouldn't have been there otherwise. It's not that my older children couldn't have brought them about, it's that the complete and total loss of her life and everything that said about God, everything they were telling me about God. The whole universe broke and split into a million stars.

There was no way to put it back into the box. And so seven years passed because I tried to be the best Christian wife and mother I really could. I brought my whole self as much as I could back then to this game and it got worse. The situation, the high control continued on its trajectory, regardless of how I behaved. I wasn't a key player as much as I thought I was. It was going to do what it was always going to do. And it consumes women. You see this over and over again, when you look at these high control systems and these families,

the women have a lifespan, they have a purpose, and then they phase out of it. I think it's fascinating that Vance likes to talk about the role of older women because with your perimenopausal right now and you are a Gen Xer, you are finding a level of freedom and expression that like we give zero fucks, you know, that's the thing. This is this time. And this is exactly the moment where the patriarchy would say, get back in the box. You're going to be a grandma and that's all you're going to be. There is so much more to me than just grandparenting. I have three beautiful grandchildren and I love them, but they've got other stuff to do too and they've got a life. So, you know, it's this, it's this utility of women that consumes. So when I was in my grief with Clara, I got online

and the internet was brand new. And I ended up on this Christian forum where women were talking about what they were reading, um, is It's pretty benign as far as that's concerned, but in my circles we weren't allowed to go to the library at this time and we weren't allowed to read outside of our approved list. So being on a forum was already dangerous. The internet was brand new. Nobody knew how to manage it. You know, it was this whole thing. And so I fell in through a literal trap door. These women had a forum called the Trap Door Society, and I had a secret place to go where I could read books, talk about ideas. It started with like, how to be a different Christian. Like it wasn't real far out of our worldview. It was just a little bit different than fundamentalism,

just this little tiny. And I would feel rewarded with air, breath and light. It would be like I could re-recharge from my one hour talking about a thought that I had in my head and writing it out. Like that just gave me so much food. And I became kind of evidence based at that point. That was about 2002, three. And I started realizing what like kind of delineating, putting into piles, what gave me life and what didn't and starting to learn how to say and these are the my baby boundaries my little tiny baby boundaries of What feels good and what doesn't feel good and it wasn't more complicated than that. I knew what hurt and Increasingly, I was starting to pay attention that everything in the hurt pile was religious was my marriage was my husband Was my church. And I didn't like going to those places.

And I knew I didn't have the stamina to hold it up. So then I would have to try and get through with a little time in my other half, a little time online. And I started a blog called Living Deliberately when we moved to Tennessee. And blogging was brand new. And I was really good at it. And boom, it exploded and it became this thing and then the elders had a problem with that because.

Oh yeah they did. I went through this. I went through this Tia. Yeah. I know you did. Tell us what the elders said. Tell us what the elders said. Oh my goodness.

Now I think it's ironic that I was writing about my life as a tradwife. I was I was actually writing in support of their system. I was criticizing other books, like Oprah had an author and I criticized that book because she wasn't patriarchal enough. I mean, I was being their voice, but they were too stupid to know it. Can you also explain what a tradwife means?

Yes, a tradwife is just short for traditional. So we called it back then, traditional wife and mother. That was like the little da da da da da da traditional wife and mother. Now they just call it trad hashtag, trad wife, hashtag, trad wife life. It's the same thing. If I had had social media, I would, you would have seen pictures of my bread as it was living deliberately had pictures of my cloth diapers and my dried beans and my chickens and my bare feet and my babies. And you it was the exact same thing we just didn't have the technology for yet

so it's really funny to me when these young women are like this is the new old way I'm like you just didn't go anywhere you're just doing the same things because it's the same things like they have no that verse that says there's nothing new under the sun I'm like yeah there's no new ideas here this is not progress yeah and so I was writing and I was doing these things that were giving me strength and freedom and I was widening my circle. I had clients at this point. I had business people asking me, how are you doing this? How are you using blogging? And it was giving me an income and I was pocketing my private money. So that's an important part of my escape aspect. I was gaining confidence. It's really kind of redemptive that I'm even having this conversation with

you today. And then 2005, six and seven, I would not have been able to even order a pizza. My social anxiety was so high and my stuttering was so bad. There's no way I would have thought that I could do this. Last week, I just talked for two hours at a public event with a podium and a microphone. I'm like, that's not who that girl was. She has grown. She has grown. But in 2005 and six, I was living in hell. I was alone in an isolated mountain house in the bottom of a valley being watched 24

7. My mileage was watched. my finances were watched. I was being spanked if I stepped out of line. I was in a church where other women were being spanked. We were not allowed to speak to each other because women talking is very dangerous to patriarchy. Yes it is. And they couldn't do anything about this blog

because it was public. If I disappeared, people would know. And here comes another big major theme in my life is stay where they can see you, be public, get your face out there. People will wonder if you disappear. That's safety for you is visibility. And that's how I learned it was during that time.

At what point do you get excommunicated? Like where does it go from, they can't do anything out of the blog because it's out there and you're being a soldier for them anyway, but you still manage to get yourself excommunicated. March 2007, I was formally excommunicated from Covenant Reformed Evangelical Church. Because they wanted it to say by your husband? wanted me first to put it in his name, second to stop writing. And third, when I blogged about the mother Mary and said that men needed women because Jesus had come to the earth through a woman's body, they lost their shit. That was the final straw. That was a bridge too far to you.

Apostasy. Men do not need women. Not really, right? Okay. So then what happens? You get excommunicated and your husband's pissed, I assume. And how does excommunication work? Like, I've been excommunicated from a lot of churches, but I didn't go to them. I kept getting these, like, things that would happen online that would be like, Glennon Doyle excommunicated from whatever. And I'd be like, but I don't, I felt like that Seinfeld episode where I'm like, you can't fire me, I don't even work here.

But you did work there. So how does one receive the news? Is it like being served with papers? I still have them. They're behind me here in an envelope. Yeah. So when you join a covenantal church, you sign a contract. You sign a covenant of your membership and you will put yourself- That's the covenant part of a covenant church. I never thought about that once in my life. It's a real thing. And you sign that you will obey,

that the church elders are your authority. And men do not like to actually be under another man's authority. So the men in fight a lot and they go start their own churches. And so when you see all these churches pop up, it's usually cause the men weren't getting along. Cause no one likes to be told what to do.

But anyway, you join this covenant church and you sign this covenant. And so you're adhering to a certain standard. And that means that I agreed that if I stepped out of line, my church could correct me. And so that's what happened. We had a series of three discipline meetings. My husband was told to get me under control and take me in hand, but he was upset with them. He liked my blog. He liked that it was bringing in some money, and he was ready to stick it to them. And so we kind of got excommunicated, kind of unified for the first time in our whole marriage. We were kind of like, yeah, we don't want to go there anyway, so we don't care. So we were excommunicated and formally shunned, which meant everybody in our

community would not speak to us or our children. That part was hard to explain to the kids and it was hard to deal with, but my skill of having another foot in another world helped because I did have friendships that were outside of that church that I had home through our homeschool co-op. So I just kind of transitioned my children over to people who would be friendly and that part went fine. And I thought that things would be pretty okay because we were kind of on the same page. If ever there was a point in our marriage where it was going to succeed, that was gonna be the moment,

but he couldn't mentally cope without having rules. That much freedom, being in charge of himself, completely, utterly broke him. Like total psychotic snap, total loss into addiction. And so we escaped Halloween. So from March until Halloween was, I don't know, a constant break was just the darkest point of my entire life.

Tia, that night, we wouldn't be having this conversation if you didn't listen to yourself in that one particular moment. Can you just take us, because I think it's important for people to hear, like when that voice comes to you, can you just say us, because I think it's important for people to hear, like when that voice comes to you, can you just say that for people so that they know? My kids wanted to trick or treat that year and because we weren't in this church anymore, they were going to finally get to do it

in this small town. And so we went trick or treating. They had these adorable little costumes, George Washington and Pippi Longstocking, and they were so cute, all four of them. And we got through it with our friends and I had decided with a priest I was going to leave the next day while he was at work. We would be going November 1st. And he got wind, I think, either got wind or he sensed it, something happened, and he snapped when we got home that night. I got the kids bathed, put into bed, and then he broke into one of his tirades, which didn't usually last longer than about a half an hour, but for some reason this one lasted about four hours. And he involved him ranting, walking through the house, screaming, waving firewood, threatening to kill me,

threatening to kill the kids. And I just kind of kept doing the same things in the same order. I didn't speak. I was very vigilant about weapons. I was trying to like not set him off and just kind of let him do his thing. But I knew like, if you've seen there's a clip of it and shiny happy people and they filmed it so accurately. The stove is down here in the living room and then there's the stairwell and I had hair down to my waist that makes a convenient rope. And I was afraid to go up the stairs and I was afraid. I was just afraid, you know, and the children were sleeping and he's doing his thing and I'm cleaning.

And then we go upstairs and I'm putting on my boots and he's screaming at me about my boots or I just think I just moved them from one side to the other side. And he's going off about how successful I'm going to be. And he's using this very final language of, he knows I'm gonna get out of here and I'm gonna do well. And he's like blessing me in his anger. It's very strange. But I knew he's thinking final thoughts and I'm in a lot of danger right here, and we're about to die. And I was like kind of getting ready for that. I used to run drills, like what order will I get the kids out of the house?

And you know, kind of always used to do that. And so I was trying to kind of like accept that we're about to die. And instead, he put the stick down and he walked out of the house. He goes, I'm out of here. He had never once in 14 years left in the middle of the fight. It's not something he ever did. And all I heard was run, just run, just run, get the kids run. So I grabbed the day's laundry, the children out of their beds, my computer, and we drove

out of town and on the way back, like it's a little tiny town with one stoplight, we passed him and he was deranged, driving deranged, but he'd gone back to his office to get his gun. So we would not be here, I would be dead. That is what would have happened. And I went to my priest's house and he sheltered me. And then what happened next? How did you, after that moment of courage and when you did save yourself, instead of waiting for God, you just found the God in you and listened to it. How does one begin to recover? I was doing this event recently and there was this woman who was speaking before me and she had grown up in a similar situation to what you're describing. And she was there because she had had an abortion several years before that had saved her life. And so she was now an activist

and knew with every cell in her mind and her body that she was there for freedom and to save women's lives. And she was shaking like a leaf before she went on stage because she said, it doesn't matter how much distance I get, every time I'm about to open my mouth, I still feel like all I do is I hear my parents' voices, I hear the religious leaders' voices,

and I feel like a bad person, even though she knows. So like, how does one begin? You said your body is now free. How does one begin to free one's mind? I really feel for her because I know there's a modality that will help. So one of the things that I count as such a humongous gift is that when I left in 2007, the language of recovery was evolving. We didn't have words like religious trauma and deconstruction and ex-saint evangelical. We didn't know trauma very well. There was like

two trauma responses people talked about was fight or flight. It was still kind of taboo to say the word anxiety. We just didn't have much language in 2007. So in the scope of my recovery, this has grown. And what I did, what I can congratulate myself for and be proud of myself for is that I promised I'd show up. Whatever it was, I would show up. Whatever they said would help, I would try it. I found it completely intolerable that this was going to be my story. That this is all that was going to happen to me in my life was going to be this sad thing, and that's all I was. And so the way I say it now is that trauma took my past. It's not going to get my present and future too. My present and my future fall under the line of things I can control. I

can change my future. I have that ability, and I'm a manifestor. I'm a visionary. I'm high capacity. I have a lot of capacity to change my future. And I knew that about myself. I knew that I had done this thing and I knew better not fuck with me because I'm going to stand up for my kids. I'm going to stand up for what's important to me. I'm a little hypersensitive baby, you know, about other things, but there are things I have my rigid about and and I wanted it to be for healing and so I showed up for everything that they said to do. I got very very sick in the years after all that body keeps the score stuff is absolutely true. I thought that I was gonna be blinded in a wheelchair for years. I couldn't see. I lost all my

vision and could only see white. Everything white was pink for a long time. I had week-long migra only see everything white was pink for a long time. I had week long migraines. A lot of physical symptoms manifested, but trauma therapy also ramped up. And so I've done EMDR and brain spotting and journaling and somatic therapy, nervous system regulation, medication. All of these things are available to me now and I use them. So I don't shake as a leaf and re-traumatize myself when I'm telling my story anymore because I've done all of that work

in order to integrate it and metabolize it. My story is fully metabolized. When I tell you that story of that night, I am also now seeing, because of my EMDR experience, I am seeing a calm, collected mother who carried herself for four hours under a death threat while her children slept. That's who I see. God damn right. Oh my God. Yes. Yes. Wow.

It's strength. It's redemption. That's my redemption. That's me saying, no, you can't have the rest of me. Tis the season for shopping. And whether that is really exciting news for you or really tragic news for you, I have something to make it a little brighter. Bracketton is the way that you are going to something to make it a little brighter. Rakuten is the way that you are going to stack up the savings while you shop. Use Rakuten to stack cash back at hundreds of stores on top holiday sales. That's like savings on top of savings. Do we call that compounding savings? Maybe. With Rakuten, you get to save money on gifts for everyone on your list, from toys for the little one, to kitchen gear, to electronics, all of it.

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and I've been covering the media business for right around 30 years. I have a new podcast called The Varsity, where I will take you inside the executive suites and owners boxes that run the entire sports business. Twice a week, I will bring on the smartest people I know to break down the hottest topics in sports media and give you a window into the inside conversations that are happening throughout sports media.

The best known personalities in the business, everyone from Peyton Manning to Jimmy Bitarro. If you have designs to make The Varsity itself, you need to listen to the varsity podcast. Don't be stuck on the JV squad this year. I'll be coming at you every Wednesday and Sunday, so be sure to follow and listen to the varsity podcast, a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm just really thinking about anybody who's listening. What do people need to build? It strikes me that you were building things before that moment. That's right.

There are people who hear the run and can't. So what did you build or maintain that allowed you to have the agency to respond to the God in you when the God in you said run and take your babies? I really think it's the accumulation of other women. So when I think of this strength, I'm hearing Liz Gilbert say stubborn gladness. I'm hearing Glennon Doyle talk about a cheetah.

Abby talks about a wolf pack. I mean, you guys got curiosity, you've got drive. And the more we tell our stories, those themes come out. And I don't feel so alone in those moments. I feel like, okay, if we're gonna all accept the language of recovery, then let's do it. This is recovery, this is grace and space. I'm not that powerful on my own. You know, like one of the, one of my therapists told me early on when I was convinced I was the problem,

I was the, it was all my fault. She's like, you're not that powerful. It can't possibly be. You're not that strong. Like, and I was like, oh yeah, I can't wreck the universe. I'm just Tia. That's all I am is just Tia. And who Tia is is a big, warmhearted, strong, capable person in some ways. And then in other ways, like don't ask me to organize anything. Don't ask me to math.

My poor partner, he's always like, God bless you, because I'm neurodiverse. And please close the cabinet doors. Those guys. Those guys. I get it. Oh, I agreed with you with everything until now, Tia. We've had a break. I know, I know, but I understand why you leave them open, girl.

So it's that humanity. I get to show up here and be like, I have one wild and precious life. It isn't going to be perfect and there's no expectation for it to be. All I have to do is be kind and what that looks like is sometimes pretty tough, you know, you got to have your armor on. But I'm a cancer, I got that soft underbelly thing, so I lean into my softness, my fourness, I'm Enneagram 4, INFJ, on the Myers-Briggs and I'm on a path to myself. And she's always growing. So I give that to myself because other women have given that to themselves.

I have role models and I have support and there's a whole tribe out here. And I think that's one of my like thumbs to the patriarchy is that we are not alone. I felt so miserably alone in that house staring staring at the gray rain, wondering, you know, where are even the other women of the patriarchy? Alone in their homes, feeling isolated. Loneliness is like cancer in our society, and health is one of the ways we combat it, is coming together.

So where does it come from? I mean, like I said, I was born with a tooth. I came here screaming. It's just who I am. I have a question, a little bit of my story. People know a little bit about this, but I grew up Catholic. And when I was quite young, I think I realized I was a little different. I don't know what the difference was yet.

I couldn't like verbalize it or even consciously understand gayness or queerness. But what I knew is that what I was becoming was not going to be accepted. It was going to be seen as an abomination. I was literally going to go to hell via the words out of my mother's mouth. And I struggle with the facts that I think her intentions of being in the church were true and beautiful, really. I do think that she fell in the lines of a little bit more of like the conservative version of Catholicism. She wanted 12 kids. You know, maybe she wasn't in this like the more conservative sect of Christianity that you found yourself in.

One thing that I struggle with and I'm curious if you can help me is this idea of you know when I was 16, 17 years old when I was really coming to terms with this sexuality thing, I just decided okay, if hell is where I'm headed, then I will accept that. I still have to maintain myself, my inner self. However, some of the things that happen throughout my life, I very quickly can draw the line of bad things when bad things happen, it's because I'm gay. And I think a lot of people in my position

might have a similar thing. And I wonder if that's something that you carry with you or if you have been able to unlearn or unwind from that attachment that I still currently kind of hold onto in some way. I think that one of the things you said about your mom is important to emphasize that people are attracted to these systems because they want good things.

They want structure and order. They want eternal security. They are scaring their children because they want ultimately to get them to a good place. And they've been told, just scare them for this little bit here and then it'll be okay in the end. And those of us who find that here and now, we don't want to spend bit here and then it'll be okay in the end. And those of us who find that here and now, we don't want to spend our here and now in eternal suffering. Like I got to a place where I was like, okay, if you say hell, then it's say you say hell

because I can't fight you anymore. I cannot keep this up and I'm living hell. This feels like hell and I can't take it anymore. I think what happens in the self harm moments is that attachment. And so the one of the biggest modalities I've spent, I still spend a lot of time on and I honor her today actually is inner child work. And going back to my little tiny parts, part work is huge in my, I combine it with somatic.

And so I have all these little parts and you have a part that internalized that anything that was bad is evidence that you're bad, that is evidence that you're hellbound. And it doesn't matter how much you cognitively deconstruct that hell isn't a real literal place and heaven isn't even a real literal place, and who needs either one of them when we create them here on earth? Your brain can believe that all day long, but if your little child inside of yourself is saying, well, no, I was born bad, which is Catholic doctrine 101, you were born bad in original sin. And here's the manifestation

of it. They need just love, just so much love and advocacy. No one advocated for you. And you had to navigate that as someone so young, which wasn't a fair ask. And shame on all the adults in the world that would put that on a child's shoulders because one of the places where I'm really drumming right now is the damage that indoctrination does to a child's self-development. I don't know if you are familiar, but every once in a while I'll meet someone who has no religious upbringing at all and they had child development. They knew who they were at like five, six years old. And they don't carry any like existential fear that they're going to like nail Jesus to the cross with their sins or go to hell. And I was just like, you're amazing. I would love to like be you. But that's what indoctrination does. It interferes

with our sense of self. It's not natural for a child to self harm. Children are naturally open-hearted and explore and if they feel secure then they'll widen their circles not narrow down in their circles. So when you see someone shutting down their circles there's that's a flag that something's happened. So I would just go to 16 year old Abby and I'd spend a lot of time with her and whatever that looked like whatever she needed needed in that moment, she was probably a mom that said, you're wonderful, you're just the way you are. And that was probably more than your mom, your actual mom could do, but that doesn't change

that that's what you needed in that moment. You know, it's interesting because I think that people probably listened to the last episode and hear us talk about the baby, the blanket training, where a baby is on a blanket and the way that you discipline them as you hit them, if they the baby, the blanket training, where a baby is on a blanket, and the way that you discipline them as you hit them, if they're gonna leave the blanket, and that trains them to not leave the blanket.

And there are probably so many of us who listen to that story and think, how could anyone do that? How could you do that? But that is what we do to children, emotionally and spiritually, when we sit them down in a pew, and we allow them to

hear that they are bad and that if they don't somehow fix that badness that they are gonna go to a place where fire will burn them forever. Like I just want everybody who's listening to this who thinks that it is harmless to take children to a place where, yes, they might have finger painting, and yes, they might have cookies and coffee, and there might be a lot of love there. But if that message is there,

teaching children that they will go to hell if they don't somehow figure it out to subjugate themselves enough, is blanket training. It is abuse. And it is why so many of us are so confused and scared, even when we start to intellectually know better. Our bodies and our hearts don't know better. Why aren't we talking about that more? Why are so many well-meaning people still allowing that

messaging into their babies' minds and hearts? When you share that story, I feel it in the back of my legs because I remember what it was like to be a toddler, a very skinny little tiny frail toddler, sitting on a wooden pew with a flannel graph in front of me of flames and a teacher showing me, here's a flame, here's a person drowning in the flame.

You did this to Jesus on the cross. Like it's a very internalized little toddler memory that I carry and it, as a sensitive person, I didn't wanna know that I hurt Jesus. Jesus is perfect and good and I'm the person that hurt him. That I have carried that forever. Why I think people still do it is because they haven't healed that or addressed it or even

articulated it. It isn't okay to talk about yet very openly. It sounds a little woo when you start getting into parts work because there's still this baggage that you're talking about, split personalities or something. So just having the permission and the space to do that. Then there's all this external pressure to comply. And I think parents, you can relate if you've had the noisy child in a crowded space and everyone wants you to keep it quiet. You can relate to the burning shame on your face and the anxiety and the sweat that you're feeling

in order to get your kid outside because it's being too loud. And then moms lose their cool and then they reach out and they hit their child. That's just a desperate non-religious example of why it continues happening because it takes so much intentionality. I went on this Eat, Pray, Love, like self tour to Europe after my second divorce. And I was on the train platform in Zurich

and there was a toddler that was having a tantrum on the train platform because clearly they had been traveling and they did not want to go another step. And train stations, you know, are like little ant hills and little tiny person, big huge train station. And that mother sat down on the ground in the middle of the train station and just met eye contact with their little toddler and talked them through. And I stand there and I cried and I just watched and I was probably that weird stranger watching this mother

but I have not seen that in American's culture. I have not seen a mother be willing to sit on a dirty train platform and help her child feel less overwhelmed without an air of discipline anywhere in that. Like that baby just had space to feel overwhelmed for a second in an actually overwhelming experience, and the mother was able to meet it. And it just has stuck with me so much because if we can give

that to individuals, like we are grown ass adults with toddlers inside of us. And if we can look at one another and say, I get it, you're scared. What can I do to help you feel safe right now? That moment sets you up to not reach out and hit your child later. That is the breaking the cycle is allowing another human being to feel seen and safe and comforted and not ashamed of the feelings. We're breaking massive generational cycles here. The boomers are still alive and they just ingrained all their values into our Gen Xers and that's a whole nother show.

But those cycles have to be broken constantly. We cannot lose our vigilance right now. Because is that the heart of it? Like the reason why that moved you so much to see the woman sitting with her messy, loud, wild toddler, is that the root of all of this fundamentalism is like fear of our wild, messy, beautiful human selves and existence. It's just, it's so uncertain. The world is so uncertain. Life is so uncertain. Everything is so complicated. I am so cult susceptible because, well, for one reason,

I think I was taught not to trust myself very young because of mental illness. I was taught you just don't, you're a mess and like you need an outer structure, right? Right. But there's also this kind of, sometimes I think that it's like the most precious seekers that are so big hearted and so full of curiosity

that actually end up in these things because of that seeking. Like what's your take on that? Like what's at the root of it? Because my sister and I are always saying, it's like the question is always right. But fundamentalism, it's just the wrong answer. It's like the tradwife thing.

Like they whisper to you, women, life is too hard. You can't do it all. You can't, you can't do this work life and this home life and this, it's too hard. And we're like, correct. It is too hard. So the question is right, right? It's just the answer they give you.

The answer is never so. The other half of the population is gonna step up. So your husbands are gonna help you. So you're gonna share the mental load. So we're gonna change the law so that you have agency. So no, no, no. The answer is come back under our wing and we'll control you.

Right. I think that permission to ask questions and be curious is the most radically unfundamentalist thing we can do. However, it is also the same vehicle that they'll use in order to ensnare us. So we have to be full of ourselves, which is I know like that just that saying it is triggering, but you do have to know who you are and be confident in yourself. And this is what I pick up on the people who haven't

had any religious baggage is they carry this self assurance to have a filter that says this is for me and or this is not for me. That's not good or bad. It's for me or not for me. Like if somebody else might find that beneficial, but that is not for me or this is not for me. That's not good or bad. It's for me or not for me. Like if somebody else might find that beneficial, but that is not for me. Why is that not for me? Because I can't be true to myself and do that. I wasn't taught about self betrayal or anything like that. We are supposed to be curious.

We are supposed to explore, but then be okay with, I don't know. Be okay with uncertainty. Be okay with an investigative process. Be okay looking at the evidence and the testimony that you have available for what they're suggesting. We have that, it's 2024. We know what it's like to be a Puritan.

We know what it's like to be a boomer. We know what the 1950s were like. We do not have to romanticize or wonder. We can say, oh no, here's what it's actually like. Is this what we wanna choose again? We can make an informed choice. So asking the question and then following through that way in a healthy way, I think is like cult insurance.

Another thing that I do for cult insurance is I resist binaries. So one of the best, the question I get more than any other question in the world is, are you still a Christian? And I say, okay, I'm gonna tell you I'm spiritually private and here's why. And it's the answer that I give to that question

that is then like, oh, here's the lesson. Here's the lesson that I learned in my life. I love binaries and I love people pleasing. And if someone asks me, if I'm still a Christian, my brain's already sussing out. Do they wanna hear me say I'm a Christian? And they would like me better if I say I'm a Christian or do they wanna hear me say I'm an agnostic or an atheist?

I can't go there. That's dangerous territory for Tia. So I have to say, no say I'm an agnostic or an atheist? I can't go there. That's dangerous territory for Tia. So I have to say, no, I'm guarding my fluidity and my privacy and that spirituality is something deep and intuitive and changes. And I'm going to say that it's private. I was also supposed to have that as a five-year-old and no one gave it to me. So this is a present to my five-year-old who says, you know what?

You don't even know who you are yet. You do not have to make an eternal decision at four and a half and then stick with it for the rest of your life. So we are not gonna do that. And then also I just can't put myself in a box. I can't, I can never again assign a name to my belief system and put myself and say, here's where I am. No, you don't get to label me with jack shit

because I will go hog on that. That's who I will become. And I can't do that. I know the cost of that too viscerally. And so I just don't do it. So yeah, I think curiosity is wonderful and both and all the other stuff that comes with it. I love that.

It's good. That works for sexuality. It works for all of it. It's private. It's private. And that doesn't mean you're ashamed of it. That means there are no words. How could there possibly be words for faith, for sexuality?

Multifaceted people. We are so dynamic. Why do we have to be defined by any one thing at any one point in our life? And that's who we are forever, especially if you're a little child and you aren't even fully formed. Now that we're a couple hours into our fundamentalism conversation, could we talk about what fundamentalism is? Oh yes, girl.

If it's like, what is at the root of it? At the root of it is this unacceptable reality that there is no quick answer to our lack of safety and lack of chaos. Yes. That is unacceptable. So fundamentalism exists to help us not live in that reality. Can you just blink it? What is your definition of fundamentalism exists to help us not live in that reality. Can you just blink it?

What is your definition of fundamentalism? Yeah, what I always say is there's no solve for the human experience. We are gonna feel pain. We are gonna feel a whole range of emotions. And I need to caveat, I'm not an academic. I haven't even been to college. So I'm not gonna give you the academic answer

for fundamentalism. I'm gonna give you the Tia answer, which is fundamentalism is any kind of ideal that's attached. It's got a promise, a formula, a step-by-step formula. And if you follow this step-by-step formula, then you will achieve this ideal. And ideological purity is the highest pursuit. It doesn't matter. Humans do not come first. People's needs do not come first. The ideological purity is the whole goal. So I used to just sum it all up and say, it's ideas over people. And I put people over ideas. There is no ideology that I will sacrifice my humanity to serve ever again.

And so that's my filter. Like it's real quick who's served, who's, who has served here. And if it's not a human being and they're foibles, then it's not for me. And so if the people who are sitting there are people who are so, you say that these people who are fundamentalists are not evil, they are not crazy. They do not want something different than the rest of us. They're just like you and me and they want comforting

answers, reassuring binaries. They want organization in times of chaos. So I think in some ways that answers, Glenn, and what you say is, what the fuck are we still doing in those pews? Like there is a, yes, that's not good, but what alternative do we have? We need some way out of this chaos. We need some answers to this mess that we're in and we can only get them here. So we're just going to have to kind of cherry pick what we like or not.

And this I think is, you know, how many people, how many, how many Catholics do you know, they're like, yeah, they're a little crazy about that gay thing. We're not into that. We don't believe that, but it's a great church. It's a great community. It's great comfort to us. Like there is that all the time. And this is where I think leads us into MAGA exceptionalism, which I would love to hear you talk about Tia with, you know, if I am a good person who goes to a church that says women can't serve, gays are going to hell, your trans kids are not human.

I am now a good, decent MAGA person who doesn't believe all the crazy stuff that I'm hearing. Tia, tell us what you say to them with your fundamentalist understanding. Yeah, I hold space. I hold space and I empathize with them where they are because I've been there. It is really hard to step away from the fundamentalist promise that you believed and then have the psychological health to sit in the seat of discomfort, which is so hard to tolerate and most of us have to work at it, and then be met with uncertainty. So let's use a practical example with the holidays. You can deconstruct whether or not you believe Jesus really came through to earth on with

the bio virgin and does Christmas have this spiritual meaning. And you might come to a different like intellectual belief about Christmas and then you might stop attending that church because I don't really believe that that's Christmas. But if it's part of your family traditions and institutions, then what are you doing? And then everything becomes a point of analysis, every single thing. Am I going to spend money on this? Am I going to take time out for this? Am I going to decorate my house? Am I gonna take time out for this? Am I gonna decorate my house? Am I gonna cut down a tree?

And so it becomes this really hard thing. A very healthy person can do that and still be uncomfortable. An unhealthy person can't do it at all. So they have been taught in religion to smile through their suffering and their suffering aligns them with Christ. So they understand that this is not ideal.

They are not expecting it to be perfect. They are expecting to overall be part of a system that's going to better society. And they couple that with dissonance and different, you know, we have a misinformation campaign happening. It's not all their fault. Like there's some external abuses happening here that have changed our culture that we have not kept up

with and we're not really sure how to combat. But what we do know is that people crave fundamentalism when they are feeling chaotic and they need to have that stronger internal compass that says, I'm not going to be swayed by this. I have a foundation to stand on if you take it away from me. It's not going to make me fall apart. Like what my husband did that night when his external system was taken away, he crumbled. He had nothing to hold himself together on. And to this day has nothing really to hold himself together unless he has an external system. And so I just sit with them and I spend a lot of my work trying not to vilify, trying not to other into the other side and say, okay, well, tell me what that was like, or that must have been really hard. Because that's what people did for me.

When I was on that forum with Berkeley grads and feminists, and I'm coming at it with this little gothered fundamentalism who's like, can't go to the library because there's dangerous books there, they didn't other me. They let me spout, and, my God, did I spout some theological crap at them? And I shamed people and I was a hothead and I was complicit in systems and I did all that stuff and a lot of them just was like, tell us how it is, you 24-year-old smart ass. They just let me do my thing. And so that's some karma, like pay it back and give somebody the grace that you want yourself.

That is something we can carry with us is that golden rule. Can I read something that you wrote that I loved for this? Because I think it's also what we're talking about when we sit in the church and we agree with 50%, but not 50%, but we agree we're not going to talk about the 50% we don't agree with. You say, not all Trump supporters will join the not all men and not all Christian arguments because not all of them, but enough of them. No one gets to participate in group energy for group impact and then claim individuality

in the aftermath. The ones grieving harm and promised harm are releasing words and sounds of pain. If good people who voted for Trump want to be exceptional individuals One's grieving harm and promised harm are releasing words and sounds of pain. If good people who voted for Trump want to be exceptional individuals who don't align with the harms of the congregational platform, you need to take measures that help you stand apart. That begins with empathy over shame, curiosity, vocality for what you'll do to oppose them.

This will make you an outlier in your group and the grieving doubt you'll do it. If enough caring Trump supporters expressed curiosity, kindness, empathy, and vocality against the oppression, the red wave would become purple, but that's up to you. If you are part of a group that has a group impact and you're not having individuality within that group, then you can't claim separateness from that group. If you are in a church and they're spouting about gay people,

you can't then go to the side and say, but we don't agree with that. It is your impact, yes? Like. That's right. It's why it's so infuriating right now. It is your impact, yes? Like. That's right. It's why it's so infuriating right now. Abby and I talk about this a lot. In the aftermath of this election,

to have men, well-meaning men one at a time, come up to us privately and say, I'm so sorry. And I wanna say, just make sure that before you privately say that to a woman, that you have said that loudly to your boys. If you are not standing in your groups of power and saying this is shameful, what are we gonna do? How are we gonna show up for the people that are gonna... then do not apologize to me in private because there is no such thing as silent solidarity.

So it's like that movie, that woman talking movie, right? It's like, there's three options. You can stay, lose your individuality, be complicit. You agree. Or you can stay and fight like hell from inside. My friend Rachel Held Evans used to do that. She stayed in the machine, but she fought like hell while she was in it. Or you can leave and help others leave. But that's it. You don't get to stay, be quiet and still be thought of as different.

That's right. In speaking about leaving, I know that Tia, you talked about what it took emotionally to get yourself prepared to leave and that that was a very long road you're preparing for so long. I think it's super important and I wonder for folks who are listening to this and may need to prepare themselves to leave, It'd be very important to just leave folks with a couple of very tactical things because it is true that the most dangerous time in a person's life leaving an abusive relationship is the leaving of the abusive relationship.

Like that period directly before, during, and directly after is where most people die. So I know you did some things with untraceable funds. You did some things like, if there were three things that you were like, if you think whether it's gonna be seven years from now, seven months from now, that you may need to get yourself out,

what are like practical things? And if it's just even, if it's not true abuse, but it's a spiritual abuse, mental abuse, like for anyone who's trying to leave any sort of high control relationship or group, what are the steps? Totally. It's just I think sometimes it's patronizing and unsettling to be like, get out of there when it's like actually that's the most dangerous time for you. So be very careful as you get out of there when it's like actually that's the most dangerous time for you. So be very careful

as you get out of there. So yeah practical steps when you know that even when you suspect it might like it's okay if you're not sure yet just give yourself the tools for when you are sure that you have what you need. So untraceable money is a big one you can get yourself gift cards if you have a friend who you think might be in this boat give give them gift cards. It is like one of the most powerful things you can do for the someone who's in DV or trying to get out of DV is to have untraceable money. Read, read, read bravely. Arm yourself with the stories of other women. It will help nurture your own resilience and resourcefulness. Reach out to someone who's safe. And I like to use someone who is sworn to secrecy. So that means like a therapist or a priest. I worked with an

Orthodox priest who was very progressively minded and he knew what was going on in a way that he was a resource. And then I just did show up at his house in two in the morning with four children. Like that did happen. His gift to me was that he helped me stage a formal goodbye to my husband the next morning so that I could leave the state with them without being accused of kidnapping. And that isn't something I even thought to know about. So that's the power of having like the right advocates around you. There are underground networks. so if you can only reach out to someone online, there are hotlines, websites, my DMs. I refer people to a few networks that I'm aware of. Signal is a good, reliable app for this. I believe that once you open your mind and your heart to a direction, the universe will catch you and provide you with the resources you need when you need them. I think that's one of the biggest things you can do is allow for the possibility of leaving.

Love isn't supposed to hurt. Marriage isn't supposed to be a never ending case of hard. If you're in pain, you deserve to not be in pain and you don't have to decide everything today. Just get to where you're not hurting anymore. Give yourself the honor of being able to think through this clearly is I think one of the biggest mental steps

that someone can give themselves. And follow Tia. You all seriously. Tia's social media is a source of strength and sanity and brilliance actually. It's extremely helpful. So go follow Tia, get Tia's book. We're going to leave all of this in the show notes or whatever podcasters say about that. And Tia, Abby's laughing because I don't know what show notes are. She says show notes or whatever podcasters say about that. And Tia, Abby's laughing

because I don't know what show notes are. She says show notes all the time. We'll put it in the show notes. We know. I know what show notes are. Okay. I just, you said three words that just keep coming back to me. You just kept, you said she has grown. And I just, I love those three words. She has grown. I just keep thinking about that when I look at you. I find you to be just a fucking inspiration. And I just want you to just daydream and hike and paint forever. Thank you. Thank you so much for this. What a dream come true. When we come back again, which we are going to, can you tell us the prequels and can we

talk about the tradwives and how we just are trying to buy like a shirt from free people and then we end up losing our souls? Yes. Okay. Okay. Very slow people. Happy to. Scary out there.

Next time we discuss it. Bye Pod Squad. Go be free. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things first, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify,

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