We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How to Quiet Your Inner Critic with Dr. Kristin Neff

Episode Date: September 24, 2024

348. How to Quiet Your Inner Critic with Dr. Kristin Neff Dr. Kristin Neff shares the secret to self-compassion and how to lessen our inner critic’s voice in order to build self-worth. Discover: -The 20-second daily practice you need to increase your self-compassion; -How to use your compassion for others as a template for how to treat yourself; -How to give your inner-critic a software update; and -The “fierce” self-compassion and what it has to do with drawing boundaries. On The Guest: Dr. Kristin Neff is an Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin, and co-founder of the Center for Mindful Self-Compassion. She is a pioneer in the field of self-compassion research, conducting the first empirical studies on self-compassion more than twenty years ago. Kristin runs the Self-Compassion Community, an online learning platform where people can learn the skill of self-compassion with the help of others. She is author of the bestselling books Self-Compassion and Fierce Self-Compassion. She also co-wrote The Mindful Self-Compassion Workbook and has a new book called Mindful Self-Compassion for Burnout coming out in Fall 2024. Order her latest book here: https://self-compassion.org/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We have the Dr. Kristin Neff here, who we have been hoping to speak to for so long, and recently Amanda was talking about how it would be nice if she could silence the critic in her mind. And we just thought now's the time, Dr. Neff. Beautiful. I'm so glad you had me on. Yeah, there's so much resonance, you know, I think in your book and actually your book Untamed came out the same year my book, Fear Self-Compassion came out.

So I feel like there's a little sisterly resonance there. Maybe I'm presuming, but I love that book. Oh, I love that sister books. Amanda, why don't you let us know why you were so excited to have Dr. Nefon? OK, well, first I want to talk to the Pod Squad because I know that many Pod Squadders are like me and I want to speak to them and tell them to hang tight with this and and keep listening to us because this episode is for all of us who have a mean voice in our head and to think that actually we need that constant self-critic in our head

in order to keep us motivated. That if we didn't have the self-critic, we would just be lazy and complacent and our life would be crap. And it turns out that's not the case. Like at all. Which I thought that this self-compassion idea was very woo woo.

But it turns out that it's all counterintuitive. The more self-compassion you have, the greater motivation you have, the like greater self-responsibility that you have. Less depression, less anxiety, less perfectionism. So what I'm saying is, I've been trying it out for a tiny beat and just hang with us because I think that this is good for the woo-woo people

and also the people who are like, yikes, that sounds kind of soft to the touch. So Dr. Neff, she's saying, if you're like Glennon, you'll like this. And if you're like Amanda, you'll like this. Great, we've got everybody. Okay. We've got everyone.

I'm gonna introduce Dr. Neff. Dr. Kristin Neff is an associate professor of educational psychology at the University of Texas at Austin and co-founder of the Center for Mindful Self-Compassion. She is a pioneer in the field of self-compassion research, conducting the first empirical studies on self-compassion more than 20 years ago. She runs a self-compassion community, an online learning platform where people can learn the

skill of self-compassion with the help of others. She's the author of the bestselling book, Self-Compassion and Fierce Self-Compassion. She also co-wrote the Mindful Self-Compassion workbook and has a new book called Mindful Self-Compassion for Burnout coming out fall 2024. So thank you, Dr. Neff, for being here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really just thrilled to be talking with you both. Thank you.

I want to tell you how this little mini journey started with me and tell me if this makes sense or if this is the way a lot of people come to it. But I was like in a loop, a mental loop with my relationships and my marriage and whatever, where I would see the things that were wrong. And I was very critical in saying that, that should be better, this is a problem over here. Basically, I had blinders on of only being able to see that. And it was causing me a lot of suffering, and not to mention all the people around me. And I was talking me a lot of suffering and not to mention all the people around me.

And I was talking to a friend and I was like, I don't understand how I can't get off this cycle and I still just feel so negative. I can only see where things need to be improved. I can't see where they actually exist. She was surprised that that was surprising to me and she said, why do you think that you'd be able to have a non-critical voice to the people close to you if you always have a critical voice to yourself? Like if you can't cut yourself a break ever, how are you ever gonna cut anyone else a break? Is that, is that the case for people who have the critical voice in their head?

Uh, no. No, damn it. All right. Well, it got me here. So that's good. So I've done a lot of research on this, and there's that it's kind of like people say you can't be compassionate to others until you're compassionate to yourself. That's actually not the case. A lot of people are very compassionate to others, maybe don't criticize others or understanding or patient or loving but beat themselves up. So that's actually the normal way of being. Now when you learn to be more supportive and kind to yourself, it actually helps you be even more compassionate to others

and sustain giving compassion to others without burning out or becoming drained. But first of all, I just have to say, Amanda, it's your brain. Please don't judge yourself for judging yourself. This is the way our brains are designed to work. So our brains through evolution are designed for survival. And so what's most effective for survival is to, we have something called the default mode of our brain, kind of the normal way our brain operates. And what it does is it creates a

sense of self, it projects that self into the past or to the future and it looks for problems. And you can see why this was good for survival, you know that self into the past or to the future and it looks for problems. And you can see why this was good for survival, but just the way our brains naturally tend to operate. And so when you've made a mistake or something difficult happens in your life, you feel threatened naturally, part of you feel threatened. So you go into fight, flight or freeze mode.

So you focus on the problem, which is in you or maybe the environment. You fight the problem. And if the problem is you, that means you fight yourself. You criticize yourself thinking maybe you'll make a change so you'll be safe or you'll control the situation so you'll be safe. You flee into a sense of shame and isolation, like just kind of protect yourself

from the perceived judgment of others. And you freeze and you get stuck. You kind of get in this loop because we think, maybe if I just don't do anything, the problem will go away. This is natural, it's normal. We shouldn't judge ourselves for it. In fact, you might just take a moment

just to really appreciate that part of yourself that's been trying so hard to keep you safe, working very hard, maybe over time for many, many years. However, it's not actually that effective at keeping us safe, it kind of works. I mean, some people, they criticize their way through law school or med school. So it's not like it doesn't work at all,

but it doesn't work as effectively as another system we have, which actually evolves primarily to care for others. It's called, there's a lot of names for it, the attachment system, the mammalian care system, the tend and befriend system. So it's basically the system that evolved for parents who want to care for their infants, their family members, their in-group members.

And this is a system which I'm sure, I'd be willing to bet five bucks. And maybe I can ask Glennon if it's true, that when you're coming to Amanda with a problem or you're upset, she can probably be pretty compassionate and listen, or with your friends. So you have that system also in you, but it just typically comes online for others.

And that's kind of the way it evolved, but the nice thing is we aren't stuck with that. We can use this system, we can access our compassionate self, which is really learned. We know how to listen, we know how to be there for someone, we know how to be silent, you know when to give advice, how to help, how to care. But it's usually for others like pets or children or close friends. So what we're doing with self-compassion is very simple. It's actually a very humble agenda.

We're just including ourselves in the circle of compassion. And the cool thing is just like we know that motivating your child with encouragement, saying, I believe in you, how can I help you get your grades up or whatever it is you wanna do, is more effective than saying, you're stupid and lazy, I hate you, which will kinda get the kid to pay attention.

And they might work a little harder, but they're gonna be so overwhelmed with negative self-talk and self-doubt, it's gonna actually work against them in the long run. Same with ourselves. So say, okay, this is, first of all, a good friend tells it to you straight. A good friend doesn't say there's not a problem, if there is, first of all, a good friend tells it to you straight. A good friend doesn't say there's not a problem

if there is, that's not being a good friend. A good friend says, hey, yeah, there's a problem. It's okay, it happens to everyone. How can I help? It's the exact same thing with ourself. When we take that friendly, supportive, clear-sighted attitude with ourself, it's actually more effective.

No, it makes sense because that's the other thing that's one of the myths about it. You know, you'll stop being motivated, but also that like, that is just a tool to cover up your problems. You know, like if you're being sweet to yourself, you're kind of trying to obfuscate your problem as opposed to what your research has shown is that if you're beating yourself up over your problem, you're actually not even seeing the problem clearly. That if you're being compassionate, you can see it. So can you talk about that? Yeah. So there's also two faces of self-compassion. There's a similar energy. People think that

self-compassion is just tender, and it can be tender, that's an important side. So tender self-compassion is the accepting, nurturing side of compassion. You know, if you were to put your hands over your heart and feel that being there with yourself, acceptance, yes, we're flawed human beings, we aren't perfect, that's just the human condition. Just like a parent hopefully unconditionally loves

their child, we can unconditionally love ourselves. This is a real healing power of self-compassion. But if you're doing something that's harmful to yourself or others, it's not compassionate to say, oh, it's not a problem if it is, right? And that's where fear self-compassion comes in. Fear self-compassion is like the ability to say no, draw boundaries. This is harmful to yourself or others.

Or if you're in a relationship, for instance, it's toxic. It's not compassionate just to say, oh, well, it's so hard. The compassionate thing to say is no, or I have to leave, or I need to make a change. I call it like this mama compassion, like tender mama compassion, and there's mama bear self-compassion. And both are equally necessary to alleviate suffering. And so it's really this mama bear self-compassion,

the fear self-compassion that says, hey, I love you unconditionally, just hopefully like a mama bear would, but this behavior has got to change. How can I help? Or this relationship's not good for you. Or the fact that you're being discriminated against, it's not okay.

Drawing boundaries, saying no, it's a really kind of overlooked part of self-compassion, which is really crucial. Because if we want to alleviate suffering, which is really what self-compassion is, the desire to alleviate suffering, which is really what self-compassion is, the desire to alleviate suffering, we need more the accepting side and we need the action side. And it's like yin and yang. We need both. They need to be in balance constantly.

So when you're talking about having the conversation, okay, I love you, but this thing isn't good for you. I love you but this thing isn't good for you. You're talking to yourself. You have a behavior or you have a habit or you have a choice you're making or a way of being and you are talking to yourself and saying love this is not for you. Absolutely. At the same time so so normally when people do that the inner critic sometimes says that but says you better change or else you won't be a worthy person. If you wanna be lovable,

you better get your shit together basically. So this, so the tender self compassion is like, I love you unconditionally. Even though you're a mess, I still love you. Your worth isn't contingent upon making change. But because I love you. Your worth is in contingent upon making change. But because I love you, I really care about you and I see that this behavior is not helping, you know, it's harming you.

I think I love you, I see your suffering. How can I help? So can you wanna make the change? And sometimes you need to be firm like, hey, draw boundaries, this is not okay. But it's coming from love, not coming from like fear of being inadequate. And it makes a huge difference.

We know this instinctually for our children. We know both work, but it works much more effectively when the bottom line is unconditional love and the fierceness when a child knows that mom is doing this because she loves me, not because she hates me, it's gonna land a lot better. Exact same thing with ourself. But yeah, sometimes we need to stand up for ourself. But also, remember, I know you're really focused on standing up for whether it's LGBTQ rights or... I actually wrote the Fear Self-Compassion book when the whole Me Too

movement was happening. This whole thing of saying no discrimination, anti-racism, no sexism, that saying no to others is also a really huge part of taking care of ourselves. And so we need both. If we're too accepting, we might be complacent. On the other hand, if it's too much about a change, change, change, we have to accept the frailty and messiness of the human condition. People are messy, situations are messy, relationships are messy, we're messy, you know, so we can accept our worth unconditionally as we flood human beings at the same time that we can be pretty strong and powerful in saying, hey, something's got to change here because I love you, not in order for me to love you.

Yeah, I love you so much that I can't leave you in this place, whether that's yourself or the world or your kid or. And it feels very different when someone's being tough with you, like maybe a coach. I'm sure Abby could talk to this. A really good coach doesn't say to their players, oh, don't worry about it. No, because by the way, we did a study,

if you don't believe me, with NCAA athletes. And these are, you know, they have to be the best. You can't be second best if you want to, like, if your scholarship's riding on it or you want to go into the pros. So we taught them to be self-compassionate about their mistakes, their training routines, or their games.

But I like to think of an ideally compassionate coach. Now for an athlete, the ideally compassionate coach is the one who points out very clearly how you can improve. Because the kindest thing you can do for an athlete is to say, hey, here's how you can improve. But not from like a place like, you're only worthy unless you're perfect. But yeah, I love you, I care about you.

This is what's not working. You know, giving you really good constructive feedback. And we found that athletes who learn self-compassion, their performance improved. Their mental health improved, but their performance also improved. And this is not only their own opinion, their coaches also rated them as improving their performance

because it's more effective. We can let in the feedback in when it's safe to do so. When I know that, okay, yeah, it hurts, but I can admit it, I made this mistake, or this isn't working so well. This doesn't mean I'm a bad person, I'm only human being. We could let it in more, we can grow from it. I mean, we learn from our failures, don't we. We know that, and yet somehow we think we aren't supposed to fail. But it's true, we learn from our failures. If we're so threatened, if our goodness and lovability and worthiness on the planet

is contingent upon not receiving that negative feedback, because that means I'm bad and I'm not worthy and I'm not lovable, then of course we're not gonna let the information in, and then we'll never be able to solve the problem, whereas I am already loved, I'm already good, I'm not worthy and I'm not lovable, then of course we're not gonna let the information in and then we'll never be able to solve the problem, whereas I am already loved, I'm already good, I'm already worthy, therefore I can receive this feedback you're giving me and take it in.

I loved when you're about the athletes when you were working with the basketball players at UT and you gave them this course, but you called it inner resilience instead of self-compassion so that they could like accept it and tolerate it and integrate it. So it sounds more like that. I actually called it inner strength training

because I knew the other one. Inner strength training. Inner strength training, yeah. But it is, right? It's really, it's another way of bolstering yourself up for what life inevitably is. It's actually more realistic. It is. It is. And by the way, so back in your point that you were making about self-worth, so when I first introduced the construct of self-compassion to the field of psychology,

by the way, I didn't come up with the idea. It's not my idea. It's actually a tic-tac-hon who's a Zen master talked a lot about it. But you know, I did play a role in bringing it into academia. And my first paper was an alternative way to feel good about yourself in terms of comparison to self-esteem. So self-esteem is esteem. The word esteem is an estimation, a judgment of worth, and it's contingent. In other words, we have high self-esteem is esteem, the word esteem is an estimation, a judgment of worth, and it's contingent. In other words, we have high self-esteem when we look the way we want to look, but our body looks the way we want it to look, when we succeed the way we want to succeed, when people like us.

But it's a fair-weather friend because what happens when we don't look the way we want to look, or people reject us, or we don't succeed the way we want to succeed, it leaves us flat and then we feel badly about ourselves. So self-compassion also provides a sense of worth but it's intrinsic to our humanity. It's like you don't have to go to graduate school to be worthy of self-compassion. The moment you're a human being, a living, breathing, flawed human being, trying the best you can, That's where our self-worth comes from. So you might say it's a true and stable friend. When we don't look the way we want to look, or we don't succeed the way we wanted to,

or people don't like us, then we can just be with ourselves and with this unconditional type of support. So the research shows, for instance, we did a study of people with body image concerns, women with body image concerns, and we had them listen to the meditations on my website for three weeks. And we found that just doing that for three weeks, their sense of self worth was less contingent on how they looked,

you're more able to find a sense of self worth that was more stable, this true friend, that was just from the fact that they were a living, breathing human being. And so that's a huge difference between the two and that's one of the reasons it provides such benefits. It makes so much sense because we don't say to our kids, hopefully we've learned this, like, you know, we don't tell them messages over and over again,

I love you because you're beautiful. I love you because you're smart. I love you because you work hard. I love you because you're smart. I love you because you work hard. I love you because whatever, because those things, while they seem like compliments, they're actually terrifying because, okay, so if you love me because I am smart or because I show up or because I achieve,

then I am not those things. Or when I'm not those things, you won't love me. It's the same to ourselves, right? It's what drives me nuts about like the beauty messages and body messages of you're beautiful, we're all beautiful, we're all beautiful, you're beautiful, that body's beautiful. Like, that's not the point.

The point is that we shouldn't have to be beautiful at all. Like, that's not where our worth is. I don't want anybody to tell your body's perfect, you're beautiful. I just want you to remind me that that doesn't matter at all. Exactly, exactly. It's unconditional.

Parenting is a really good example. It used to be, as you know, spare the rod, spoil the child. We actually used to think that you needed to be harsh and cruel with kids, otherwise you'd become spoiled and lazy, you know. And now, hopefully, most of us have learned that that's not good parenting. It's the exact same thing with ourselves. You know, so the love and the acceptance, this is the tender self compassion, is unconditional. But the behaviors and the situations, we're always working to try to get them to be

as healthy as possible because we care, not in order to be lovable. It's huge. Once you make that shift, it just changes everything. And it's so much easier to get things done when you aren't dealing with the shame on your shoulder saying you aren't good enough. It just kind of depletes you. Makes it harder than it needs to be. Sister, do you have an example of this?

What does your voice sound like? What is the voice in your head that has made you realize you even want to address this? What's driving you nuts up there? Well, so there's two, I have like two kind of parallel tracks of it. One is how I am unable to see anything other I am unable to see anything other

than the way things need to be improved or the way things could be better. If things are 98% amazing or if I've done something 99 point, my focus, my brain is on the one or 2% and it's like the rest of it's invisible. is on the one or 2% and it's like the rest of it's invisible. So, and that's in every aspect of my life, the way I perform or any output. More recently, and this is something that I would love to talk about now,

is the aspect of this that is about now is the like, the aspect of this that is about like, just surviving the inevitable pain of every day and year and month and whatever, and especially with like parenting and life. And so when things happen that are beyond my control, when I see my kids going through something when I and allowing trying to allow it to be as painful and hard as it is not immediately going to they're going through that because I fucked up in these three ways if I would have done X they wouldn't be going through that if that person over there didn't do it, you know, like trying to make the world controllable by my criticisms as if I, as if though, if those things were better, that pain wouldn't

be happening as opposed to just letting the pain be. Which is what I've been working on in therapy, which I had an epiphany when I was reading your work, Dr. Neff, because my therapist is always doing this such an annoying thing where she's always like, wait, stop. Where do you feel that in your body? Wait, when you're talking about that, like, is that your throat or your belly? And I'm like, what does this have to do with anything? We need a solution. Like, what's happening?

And I always thought it was, but can you take us to why that perception and attunement to your body is absolutely vital to self-compassion. I'm Jean Marie Laskus. I'm a journalist. I spent my career helping Americans understand the lives of other Americans. Coal miners, gun shop clerks, staffers in the White House mailroom. In my new podcast, Cement City, I tell the story of an entire town. A dying town that you have absolutely no reason to care about. But trust me, you will. Listen to and follow Cement City, an Odyssey Original podcast

in partnership with Cement City Productions. Available now for free on the Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. you get your podcasts. Before we go further, I really do. I want to make sure Amanda, because it's so common when people go down this path that you're really appreciating that voice in your head that wants to get things right. The part that wants to control things, it's not because you're a controlling person, it's because you're a caring person, right? And so you want to alleviate suffering,

your kids, your own, but it's coming from a place, these are like old parts of us, just like the reptilian brain that just wants to control things, fight, flight, or freeze. And so it just needs a little update. So it comes from a good place, it comes from a good heart. But in fact, it's actually not that effective. That's the problem with it.

And that one saying we have is the goal of practice is simply to become a compassionate mess. Oh, I love that. It doesn't mean their goal is to be a mess. Our goal isn't to be a mess. Our goal is when the mess of life arises, which it will, their goal shifts. Our goal is to bring compassion to it.

And so you talked about the brain, which again, which is the way brains are designed. Oh, it's looking for the problem. What you can actually learn to do is when the problem arises, you let yourself feel compassion for the pain of that mess. And then what happens is instead of just the problem arises, you let yourself feel compassion for the pain of that mess. And then what happens is instead of just the problem being foregrounded, what actually becomes foregrounded

is the compassion that's holding the mess. Does that make sense? So instead of just the pain, there's like all this kind of love and connectedness and presence with the pain. And your goal actually starts to be to cultivate that. You know, to cultivate when a mess arises, to be compassionate for the mess.

And you start to actually get your primary satisfaction and sense of safety, believe it or not. Not from getting things right, but from having an open heart. That starts to become your refuge. The place really starts to be your goal, is that's what you're looking for, is to have your heart open, to feel kindness,

to feel compassion for yourself and others. Okay, so that's part one of your question. The body part of your question is also really important, and I could see how it'd be annoying, but the reason we do it is because if you look at the Latin word of the root of the word compassion, passion means to suffer, calm is with.

So how are we with our pain? When we're with our pain just in our thoughts and our emotions, typically what happens is we just end up exacerbating our pain because we think we shouldn't have the pain and we resist the pain and we try to control the pain or we judge ourselves for having the pain. If we move our awareness kind of dropping out of your head into your body and you're just feeling the pain so that's why your therapist says you know where do you feel it in your heart and your stomach

you know in your chest is there a? In your heart, in your stomach, you know, in your chest? Is there a tension? Then we're not in the storyline of the pain anymore. It's more just a physical sensation. So it allows us to still be with the pain. We don't want to reject it or resist it because that will make it worse. So we accept that we're hurting, but at the physical level,

we aren't running away with the storyline of it. And then a thing you can add is like you could just, okay, I feel tension in my chest. You can actually put your hands over that part of your body where you're physically feeling the pain. You know, again, we're, you know, kids, the primary way parents communicate compassion before language comes in is through touch. So our bodies are also designed to interpret touch as a signal of care. So maybe you're, you know, your default mode, your brain can't go there,

it's just doing fight, flight or freeze. Okay, drop out of your brain into your body. Where do you feel the pain? Oh, I feel it as the tension in my throat. Okay, can you put some hands there or just hold yourself and be with that pain in a caring way? And what we know from the research, I know people are thinking it's woo woo, there's

over 7,000 studies, this is empirically supported stuff. Study came out that just doing that 20 seconds a day really increases self-compassion and another study found it's actually changing your physiology. You're reducing cortisol levels, you're increasing heart rate variability, you're switching from sympathetic to parasympathetic nervous system reaction. So our body is like we can start with our body, then once your body's calmer, then it's actually easier for your head to follow. Does that make sense?

There's method to your therapist's madness. Yeah, because isn't it part of it is just the baseline embodiment of I think I don't even know when I am suffering part of the time. Like I think the base, like the kind of foundation of self-compassion is the recognition of your suffering. And I don't even think, like, I think I'm operating on that baseline understanding as opposed to, because when it's all in my head and everything is just a problem that can be solved,

then I'm not recognizing that it isn't just problems that need to be solved. The reason I'm jumping to the problem that needs to be solved is because it's so unbearable for me to sit with the suffering. Your insight is why my model of self-compassion actually has three parts. So the first part, according to my model

of self-compassion is mindfulness. And that's exactly what you're pointing to, the awareness. Instead of just being lost in solving the problem, just recognizing, wow, I'm really hurting. You know, you need a little help here. I need some attention because this is hard right now. So instead of running away with the pain, or either ignore it, or we run away trying to solve it,

but just to take a step back and just be with it. This is really hard. And then there's the kindness and warmth that you've been talking about, like the care, the nurturing, sometimes the mama bear, like fierceness, but there's the trying to alleviate the suffering through kindness.

And there's a third element we haven't talked about, but that's really important, and that really differentiates not only self-esteem from self-compassion, but self differentiates not only self-esteem from self-compassion but self-pity from self-compassion. So what's the difference between self-pity and self-compassion or for that matter between pity and compassion? Other people. So the third element is the sense of connectedness or what I call common humanity. When we frame our experience in light of the human experience.

So self-pity is poor as me, well as me, everyone else is living a normal, perfect life, and it's just me who's made a mistake. Or when I pity you, it's like, oh, I'm looking down on you. This woman's kind of screwed up, but I feel sorry for her. That's not compassion. Compassion is, hey, all human beings struggle. Yeah, absolutely not the same amount, and some people, hey, all human beings struggle. Absolutely not the same amount.

Some people are privileged, some people are not. So there's differences. It's not like we're all one. We are different, unique, and our stories are different. And yet, again, intrinsic to our humanity is this worthiness. And everyone struggles in one way or another. Is there something wrong with you? You know, that's why I was trying to emphasize, Amanda, please don't judge yourself for judging yourself, because

the brain wants to do that, because then it thinks, oh, maybe I can fix this one too. You know, no, this is what it means to be human. We do this, we criticize ourselves, we're scared, we make mistakes. Even though the word self is in self compassion, the sense of self actually lessens with self compassion. Yes. Because it's like we expand our boundaries and okay I'm a human being you know just going through the ups and downs of life trying the best I can moment to moment. And the moment we do that it feels more relaxed you know when we aren't so self-focused and I need to fix it, I need to solve it, I need to be perfect. So from my point of view, really all three need to be there in

order for this to be a really healthy mindset. Is there a piece of this that is also about making intimacy possible because when you talk about, like we're either believe that we're below everyone else and we feel like crap about ourselves and look at all these people that haven't figured out and I don't, or we're trying so hard to preserve this idea that we're above people, but when we're above people or below people, we're not, our existence depends on not being with people

and among people. It seems like the ability to do this and if you actually did the self-compassion would actually allow you to have intimacy with other people. Absolutely. So again, first of all, one insight you had, this is a funny thing about self-esteem and we all suffer from it. In American culture especially, to have just

baseline minimal self-esteem, we have to be special and above average. Let's face it, Glennon, if I said, yeah, your book untamed, it was average. You're going to go, ugh. If you say, oh, I read your book, Fierce Self-Compassion, it was average. I'm going to go, ugh. It's like in our culture, we are conditioned. We didn't choose this. We're conditioned to have to be above average, just to have baseline to be good enough. And that sets up isolation.

And as you said, Amanda, we're always like jockeying for position. We either feel like, oh, there's so much better than me, I'm worthless, or like, I'm better than them. We can't just be one in our common humanity, which means strengths and weaknesses, partly because our culture has conditioned us to be that way. Well, let's just stay there for a second, because it's so huge. It's huge. it's so huge. It's huge.

It's the withness. You said compassion means passion with. And so it's like the epitome of self-love. And I don't know how many times I've exploded about this, like getting just to the edge of it and then losing it. But it is a dissolution of self. Or a complete understanding of, like the path of self-love leads you to understand that you are everyone and everyone is you.

Like people, I feel like people think self-love is like, if I take enough bubble baths, but it's like a complete loss of the illusion that you are any different than me, that I am any different than you, that I am any different than you, that any of us are bad or good. And then you just relax into being so deeply connected. I mean, you put it like that,

it's like the most self-indulgent, self-centered thing you can do to not practice this. Of course it is. Because then you're just trying to prove where you shake out as opposed to just, if you do this, it's the opposite of self-indulgent because you're just trying to prove that you're just like everyone else.

Yeah, I mean, we all have unique gifts and strengths, so it's not like we're all the same. And I think we have to be careful because when we go down this path, especially people who've been historically oppressed, we aren't all one and we haven't been treated all the same way, but we all are, we're all human. And we all have unique gifts and strengths.

But Glenn, I just taught a workshop this last weekend called Who is the Self and Self-Compassion? Teaching with a spiritual teacher, a friend of mine, where we actually did that. So you might say that the self that receives the compassion is our sense of personal self. We feel limited, we feel separate, we feel isolated, we need compassion.

But the self that brings the compassion, the source of compassion, like when we shift from the self that needs the compassion to the self that gives the compassion, that self is like unified. It dissolves. It dissolves into something you might call interbeing. It really is for many people. You could think of it as a spiritual concept.

You don't have to be spiritual with it. But my friend Dan Siegel says spirituality is basically just going beyond our everyday sense of small self. And so in that sense is very spiritual we're going beyond our everyday sense of small self which needs to be special above average which needs to be perfect to this like larger whole and recognizing their interconnection or oneness with you know the universe with all life the very least other human beings. And when that sense of self softens, that sense of boundary-ness, then the compassion starts to flow.

Very important though, because I'm hearing all people's parts. You hear that it's boundary-less with boundaries. In other words, this sense of self, if it sees like you're being mistreated, it may very well draw a boundary. But it's not coming from a place of separation, it's coming from a place of love. That's like the million dollar take-home. Yeah. That the boundaries, that the action, that the self

improvement, it's all coming from a place of love, not a place of deficiency. And there's a recognition, I feel that the more I go into this place where we're all, there is a part of us that is exactly the same. There's an internal part of us that is untouchable and unchangeable and of utmost worth inside of every single person and that is person. And that is the same. That is the same.

I don't think that the more I go into that place, the more I am physically and spiritually unable to accept the degradation or marginalization of anyone else. It is not a place where I go to say, oh, we're all the same, so we're all having the same experiences on the planet. I go to the place of we are all sacred,

and so how dare anybody create a hierarchy or oppression, or it is a place of deep love and connectedness that blossoms into advocacy for all of us. It is because the culture doesn't want us to see that. That is not something that we see unless we are in a deep compassion practice or because that is not what's presented to us. These two sides of compassion, fierce and tender. And so gender role socialization really impacts our ability to manifest both.

So people raised as men, and by the way I'm not talking about biological sex or even gender identity, you might be trans or non-binary, I'm talking about like what shoe box were you put in when you grew up? Were you put in the pink shoe box or the blue shoe box? So people put in the blue shoe box aren't allowed to be tender. This is a huge harm. I mean people are bullied, they're called names that they're too tender, too sensitive. This is a huge harm. I mean, people are bullied, they're called names if they're too tender, too sensitive. This is partly why people raised as men,

they can't access the healing power of tender self-compassion. You know, 15% of the people that show up at my workshops are, you know, people who identify as men. That's a problem because research shows it's actually one of the most powerful sources of strength, coping, and resilience we have available. And that's cut off from people raised as men

because of gender role socialization. People raised as women, it operates a little different. We're allowed to be tender, we're encouraged to be tender, but for others, we're actually also encouraged to be self-sacrificing. So this is a weird statistic. So women have actually quite a bit more compassion for others than men do.

Not in as lots of exceptions, I don't wanna generalize, but because of gender role socialization, they're compassion experts. They were taught how to be compassionate. So it comes very easily. But they're a little less self-compassionate than men. It's not because men are all about self-compassion, it's because they feel entitled to get their needs met. People raised as women don't feel so entitled to get their needs met, so the discrepancy for women is larger.

But women also aren't allowed to be fierce, right? I mean, there's a little more leeway for like tomboy behavior, but you know, like that Kamala Harris, she's so ambitious. I mean, it's a little more leeway for like tomboy behavior, that, you know, like that Kamala Harris, she's so ambitious. I mean, if you look at like the glass ceiling, a lot of it is because, yeah, women can be powerful, but we don't really like them. And if we don't like them, we may offer them less money. And if they ask for more money, we think, oh, she's not being very feminine, so I like her less.

So this is like a real problem. There's a lot of backlash for a woman so the beautiful thing about compassion especially the balance of tender and fierce compassion is like it's an act of radical authenticity it's saying you know I don't care what my society tells me about how I'm supposed to be if I love myself that means I'm gonna be both fierce and I love myself that means I'm going to be both fierce and tender in the way that's uniquely right for me. So it's also kind of a political act because our society tells us that you know to buy our goods you better want to be special and above average.

Good women look this way, good men look that way. It's like they've sold us and by the way it's not a mistake. I'm gonna don't get me too much started on patri way, it's not a mistake. I'm gonna, don't get me too much started on patriarchy, but it's not a mistake that women are told to be self-sacrificing because who does that benefit? The people whose needs are being met by women. You know, so it all plays a role, which is again why we need to be self-compassionate about all this because we didn't invent this system. It's a system we grew up in, but it is our responsibility to be self-compassionate about all this, because we didn't invent this system.

It's a system we grew up in, but it is our responsibility to be aware of it. That's where the mindfulness comes in, to be aware of how the systems of oppression, how the unconscious biases, how history, and also just how everyday things like, you gotta be aware of how our society pushes us to be special and above average, partly out of concern with buying goods and consumerism.

I mean, it's pretty pernicious, American society. You know, you're never good enough, or unless you buy our products or you do this, then may, or you look this certain way, or, you know, then maybe you'll be good enough. And the whole system is kind of predicated on that insecurity. And so if you're really going to take self-compassion all the way, it is about radical authenticity. What's true for me? What's what does my

heart really want? What allows my heart to rest regardless of what society says? And that's a big act and it takes a lot of courage. Because it's like, I can survive this. Like if you believe that in any moment, you can come alongside yourself and be with yourself in that and take care of yourself in that, that changes everything because all of our desires to gather all of these things around us and put up all of these defenses and buy these things that we think are going to protect us are because we

believe that we need those things in order to survive. Yes, exactly. And then you start realizing, well, what is it that really makes me strong and safe? Well, that's my inner self. That's my, you can call it your higher self, your true self, you know, you can use whatever name resonates for you. But when we know that we have our own back, that we accept ourselves unconditionally, that will support ourselves unconditionally, that will speak up for ourselves when we need to speak up, that we'll draw boundaries, that we won't abandon ourselves. You know, that's when we really start to feel safe. And that's really what the practice of self-compassion is cultivating.

You know, really cultivating intentionally this being there for ourselves when times are tough. Being a good friend to ourselves. Do people's critical voice, does it correspond with what you were taught your worth was inside of? So like if my critical voice is mad at me every time I don't like get enough done, or if my critical voice is mad at me when I don't look good,

or if my critical voice is when I'm tired, or does that correspond to, if you're saying to me, I'm mad or does that correspond to if you're saying to me, I'm mad at myself because, then that thing that you identify means that that's where you believe your worth is, right? Yeah, yeah. So I would say this is actually two parts. Part of this is just our brains and evolution

and part of it is socialization. So I don't wanna downplay either of them. So for instance, my son, he's autistic and he's pretty self-critical. I mean, clearly didn't learn that from me. And that's just his brain. Like he thinks it feels safer to like beat himself up because he's afraid of the judgments of others. And that's partly with challenges perspective taking it. That's just, I can see it in his brain. He's like, during the headlights, he's afraid he's done something wrong. So he starts criticizing himself because it helps him feel like maybe he'll be in control.

I didn't teach him that, I can guarantee you that. So part of it, it's just important to realize that part of it is just the brain evolve, fight, flight, or freeze. But it's only part of the story. Everything is always nature and nurture. Another big way is the messages we got from our early caregivers and from the culture. So you know the messages and you know the

parents are part of it but just middle school, think about middle school, think about all the messages you absorbed in middle school. You know all that mean girl stuff and stuff we're raised with, we internalize this. And we get the message that this is why we're worthy. You know, sometimes if we had critical parents, either who are directly critical of us, or maybe who are very self-critical, we got the message, oh, I see, this is the right way to be with yourself.

That's some of it. Let me interrupt real quick and say, doesn't, every time I hear mean girl, my body reacts and I feel defensive of every girl everywhere every time that said. So what I wanna suggest too, is isn't even the mean girl talk a result of the culture that we have?

The girls are soaking in the message that there can only be one of us, that our worth is in our beauty, that our whatever. Like that didn't come from nowhere. Even the mean girl stuff is a result of misogyny that has been breathed in. 150%, and I guess I assumed that that was clear, but thank you for,

because I know not everyone interprets it that way. Absolutely, that's all, that's all a product of what we're talking about. I mean, it's not like culture is a personality that's like evil, thinking, how are you going to mess people up? This is just, it just kind of evolves over time, but partly so that people who had power could stay in power. So teaching women that, for instance, that their worth came from their beauty,

that kind of really supported a culture in which the men had the power, they had the money. Back in the day, you couldn't even own property. A woman's worth came from bearing children, being a good wife. I mean, they're all interconnected, all those messages, which leads to things like interconnected, all those messages, which leads to things like, you know, some people buying those messages that looks as all that matters,

and then taking unhealthy ways to reinforce that message. It's all intertwined, absolutely. But having said that, I remember being in middle school getting some of these messages that my worth came from, like, looking a certain way, and nothing comes through me and my Calvins and short ass jeans and all that stuff. But you know those messages are buried pretty deep and it's just really good to bring them out into the light of day and say you know I internalize those messages because I was just trying to stay safe but I don't need them anymore. That's not where my safety comes from. My safety comes from just people. It doesn't take

much just from being. Being. Being. It doesn't need anything more than that. I mean the miracle of being. It's not what you are it's just that you are and when you really start to learn to rest in being just in your awareness and the open heart. You know, this is really where for me these days where my real satisfaction comes from. Going back to the idea, the goal of practice is to be a compassionate mess. Yeah, of course you're gonna do whatever you can

not to be a mess, but that's not really the goal. The goal is to rest in your own compassionate heart. And that's where the true satisfaction and fulfillment and happiness is. I wonder if you could, I was really touched by a lot that you've shared about the moments that you were able to give yourself compassion in raising your son, especially in those very challenging

and public moments. And so I wonder if you could, as a way to kind of folks to put this in practice or to imagine what it looks like for them in a moment of stress or suffering to actually give themselves the compassion, what it feels like what you go through. Could you give us an example from your life? Yeah, yeah. And I like to talk about my son also just because, you know, a lot of us are caregivers, we're parents or we're caring for elderly parents, or maybe we have a special needs child.

Also to make the point that self-compassion is not selfish because what we cultivate inside, we communicate to those around us. And this is partly through the way, going back to the brain, we're designed to empathically resonate with others. So if you're in the presence of someone who's upset, you feel upset.

It's just kind of the way the brain works is designed to do that. And so when my son, by the way, he's doing great. He just graduated community college. He's doing wonderful. But when he was younger, he really struggled, and he would have these horrible tantrums. And of course we were very empathically attuned.

So when he was tantruming, not only was it really difficult, cause he was screaming, but I would also just feel it as a mother because we resonated. So I remember one time we were on a transatlantic flight. We were flying to London to see his grandparents, and he's very had a lot of sensory

issues. So we just had dinner and it was that part of the flight when they you know they turned down the lights. They were that oh great I can get sleep and my son for whatever reason was not expecting it. So suddenly turning off the lights for him was like a and he went into like this full on flailing screaming tantrum on the plane. And he was like five at the time. And I was like, he was like, and you know, so I was thinking people are used to crying babies and maybe crying two year olds, but he was, you know, I was thinking, oh, these people don't understand.

He's five, he should be older than this. And what's wrong with that mother? And why can't she, you know, control her kid? They probably weren't thinking that, but I was imagining they they were and I felt really bad because it was really disturbing. People were trying to get some sleep so I got the brilliant idea. Oh I know maybe I'll take him to the toilets and let him have his tantrum in there and maybe it'll muffle the cries. It was like the only plan I I could come up with. So like I took him kicking and screaming, playing down that little aisle, excuse me, excuse me, coming through to the toilet, which was of course occupied.

Of course. Because the lesson life had for me in that moment was not how to avoid a difficult situation through the clever plan of muffling his cries in the toilet. The lesson was what do you do when you have no other plan, right? So what we did is, even though it was probably in sanitary, we got down on the floor because I couldn't hold him. He was like, he was five and he was too big. So we got down on the floor and I made sure he was safe.

But I just flooded myself with compassion. Normally in public, I don't do it obviously, but I didn't care, I mean, I was just sure we'd anyway. So I just sat there and I put my hands up my heart and I just started rocking myself. Like I hands up my heart and I just started rocking myself. Like I couldn't reach him, but I started rocking myself and I'm so sorry, Kristen, this is so hard. I'm here for you, it's gonna be okay.

You know, I love you. You know, just kind of flooded myself with warmth and care and support. I was just really there for myself in that moment. And a couple things happened. This may be hard to believe, but I had this experience a lot. Instead of my awareness being totally consumed with his tantrum in this horrible situation, my awareness was flooded with the love and the kindness. So

it's like it foregrounded the love. The problem was still there, but it wasn't overwhelming me. So that gave me a big well of resources, like just being the love and the kindness and the caring for myself in this difficult situation. And then the other thing is, empathic resonance goes two ways. So for caregivers, what you cultivate inside is being directly communicated to the person you care for

through their mirror neurons. Yes. And so he was very attuned to me and he calmed down. I couldn't reach him directly, but when I could calm down and I got filled with like this loving, connected presence, which is another way to describe self-compassion, he calmed down. And then once he started calming down,

then I could start working with the board directly. You know, and so what we cultivate inside is not only a gift to ourselves, it's the gift to everyone we come into contact with because they are coming into contact instead of with like a frustrated self-critical stress person. They're coming into contact with like a caring open-hearted calmer person. And by the way now my son has learned self-compassion. He'll say to me sometimes, like, Mom, give yourself a break, it's only human, it's so sweet. I'm upset about something.

So, yeah. Oh, thank you for sharing that. That was so beautiful, so helpful. I love that, I will take that visual with me of the floor of the plane, unsanitary or not. Life is very unsanitary. Yes, with your hands over your heart rocking and saying, I, speaking to yourself about the hard time,

not speaking to your son about his hard time, yourself about your hard time. Oh, Dr. Naff, you're wonderful. He couldn't regulate his own emotions, but I can work with mine. And sometimes you're so someone who's so upset, you can't reach them. You can reach yourself,

and you can help them kind of through their mirror neurons, their capacity to resonate with you. The presence you cultivate can actually help other people, which is really important for parents or anyone who loves someone who's upset. If you just focus on other people and not yourself, you're not gonna have the resources to be there for them.

Anyone who thinks it's selfish, like that is a real thing. And the studies that they've done of the people who are working on self-compassion, their partners report that they're more satisfied with their relationship because the people who are working on self-compassion are less controlling and less angry and less stressed. So like this is a thing.

You did your homework Amanda. She always does. You're good, that's exactly right. Please tell me the value, the probability value we found in that study. No, that's exactly right. Damn it. Thank you. Giving myself compassion

for not having that statistic on hand. Well, God, I've never had someone who's interviewing me like quote my own studies to me, well, I'm impressed. Thank you for all of the work you're doing. I'm so excited to continue on this road. Like I really feel like this is a key to unlocking something in me that I've been trying to work

on for a while and this feels like a kind of clicking into place situation that to work on. I'm really grateful for all of your work. I'm so happy. And also it's really not that difficult. It's not rocket science because we've already developed the template of how to be compassionate for others. It's not like we're developing something new, we just have to give ourselves permission to use

those skills we develop for others with ourselves. And there's a whole like you know the last 15 years I've been spending on really finding out ways to teach this to other people through developing certain exercises and programs. It's not that difficult. This is the really good news. It's easier than you think, but it will change your life. Thank you, Dr. Neff. Your work is world-changing and family-changing and life-changing, and I'm really grateful that you exist. Well, thank you so much.

I really appreciate both of you so much as well. Okay, Pod Squad, be good to yourself. We'll see you back here next time. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle,

Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and this show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlile. -♪ I walked through fire, I came out the other side I chased desire, I made sure I got what's mine And I continue to believe

That I'm the one for me And because I'm mine, I walk the line Cause we're adventurers in heartbreaks on map A final destination we lack We've stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved we need to belong We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring

We can do our thing I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start I'm not the problem, sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that Our final destination we lack

We've stopped asking directions To places they've never been and to be loved we need to be known we'll finally find our way back home and through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do our thing We're adventurers and heartbreaks on back We might get lost but we're okay back directions to places they've never been. And to be loved, we need to be known. We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things I think