We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How to Say No

Episode Date: October 22, 2024

356. How to Say No Glennon, Amanda, and Abby tackle an essential life skill: Learning how – and when – to say No.  Discover:  -The concept of false urgency and why it’s a red flag; -How your values can help you find your Yes’s and No’s; -What you’re really saying when you say, “I should”; and -How to know if you’re being generous in an authentic way or just out of guilt. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. This is an episode that will fix your life. How many have we started like that? Well, listen, if my life is not fixed. I know, I know. That's the thing about life is it's impossible to get fixed. You should pay closer attention, Abby. Yeah, are you listening?

Listen, I want to do easier things. Exactly. Today, we learn how to do easier things, okay? Which is in the vein of this. A topic that the pod squad has been begging us to discuss. A topic that if we learn this skill we will free ourselves. Okay? To live the life we want to live. It is hard. Okay? It is hard because it is how to say no. Oh jeez Louise. In a world that relentlessly from the moment we wake up till the moment we go to sleep

asks us to do things, grabs us, says do this, do this, do this, how about this, do this. It is the most freeing, liberating, space-making skill to learn how to diplomatically and without shame say no thank you. Okay. Today we shall learn how. Amanda, I'm going to ask you to lead us in this conversation. And if you don't want to feel free to say no. Okay. What if I was just like, no, now that we've modeled it, go forth unto yourselves

and knoweth on everyone. Correct. So yes, the pod squad has wanted to talk about this. So we did a bunch of research and a lot of thought and we are going to have two parts. One, how do we even know when we should say no? Ooh, this is a big thing. Do we even want to say no? Do, how do we know it's a no for us? How do we know it's a no? And then when we know it's a no, how do we practically concretely do the no?

Excellent. And we're gonna go through like social, friendship, community, and workplace knows. Oof! So excited. Yes. So this was in response to many of you wanting us to have this episode including Jodi and Missy. My name is Jodi. My question is have you ever dealt with having a hard time saying no to people? And then, you know, once you do start doing that, you carry around this guilt or feel like people are upset with you. I've been quite a people pleaser my entire life and have been starting to say no more

often when I feel like I don't have capacity. And I'm just wondering how you deal with that. Like I said, the guilt and things that come with that. This is Missy. I am calling because I need help saying no because I always feel like I need to say yes. I have a hard time saying no because I like to help people and it's hard for me to say no when I should say no. So that is my hard thing. This apparently is a universal issue. So feel not bad, friends, if this is happening. So the way I think about this, and tell me if you have other frameworks for it, but I think

it's even hard to know when to say no, because sometimes you feel like I will be happier in the end if I do this thing. I just don't feel like doing it. But I know after I go hang out with my friends or after I make out with my husband, I'm like, good idea, that was good. But right in the moment, you don't feel like doing it, things like this.

And also sometimes you feel like you don't want to do it, but you want to live a life that is aligned with the kind of values that that thing represents. Like what? So maybe you don't want in this moment that you're sitting on your couch to go visit your getting older mother-in-law, but you're like, I want to be someone

who my kids have a relationship with their mother-in-law and have good memories with their mother-in-law. So on balance, I want to have done that thing. Yes, there's a lot of things that we want to have done. Like I don't ever want to write, but I really do want to have written. I don't want to go for a walk, but I really do want to have written. I don't want to go for a walk, but I really do want to have gone for a walk.

So how do we know if it's one of those things are true no? Yes, exactly. So this is the first level of things. And then the second level of things we're gonna talk about like practically once you know it's a no what you do. But the most important thing seems to

be the thing is presented to you, whether it's your own idea or someone approaches you and asks you to do something, whether it's like want to hang out tomorrow or want to run a marathon next year or want to whatever fill in the blanket is. Could you you know take care of my kids this weekend and anything. The number one thing apparently is to pause. Live to die another day get yourself out of that moment. How long? This is something you do. How long do you pause? you do. How long do you pause? You pause as long as is necessary to not answer in that moment. Okay. So like, for example, thank you so much for thinking of me. Let me think about it. Yes. Like the episode we did with Pooja where she was talking about taking time, not rushing a response because it's so much easier to start from a blank slate

where you're just receiving a request than it is to in the moment, which I do every time, try to like appease that moment in the moment. And now I'm stuck with undoing the thing that I accidentally agreed to. Yeah, it feels like this is a perfect opportunity to utilize if you are in a partnership or you do have children,

when's the last time you've made a straight on decision without talking to me about it first? Oh, so you're saying it's a good strategy if someone asks something to say, I need to talk it over with so-and-so. Yeah, like I need to talk to Glennon, I have a family. Yes, great idea.

Check the family schedule, don't know what's going on with the kids. This is like whatever means necessary to get yourself out of the accidentally committing yourself in that moment. And I do know this is something that I'm pretty good at. One strategy I have, I have two ideas. One is I think sometimes we just jump into the yes because we feel like we were lucky to have been asked. Like a friend asks us, do you want to go to coffee?

Somebody from work asks you something. You feel grateful that anyone thought of you and asked you to do it. So out of immediate gratitude, you say yes. And what I have learned is that I can say I am so grateful that you thought of me. Let me think about that. You can express gratitude because you can both be grateful and not want to do it. Saying no does not mean you aren't grateful. So for me if I say the truth of the matter

which is I am grateful for this request, I need to think about it. It's an and both, right? It's like, it immediately expresses the gratitude because gratitude is not enough to commit yourself to something, is what I have found. You can be grateful and also not want to say yes. So having a thing that you say, which is true, I need time to think. I'm really grateful to have been asked. I want to talk it over with so and so. I want to think

about it. There's also, I think it's helpful to have something physical. I remember hearing Brene say that every time she gets a request, she turns her ring three times that every time she gets a request, she turns her ring three times. Because it's something like grounding and embodied. And it is a ritual that brings her back to her center. And it's a forced pause. I think when you can have something physical that you do while you're

thinking, it gets you out of reaction mode and into like true response. Yes. And knowing that there's truly not a lot of things that are legitimately urgent on the planet. So like with my kids, I remember, Bobby's always like, I need to know the answer to this right now. I want to know, like, I want to do this thing next month and I need, please tell me right now. Please tell me yes right now. I need to know right now. And I just always say like, if you need to know right now, it's a no. If that's the priority is the needing to know right now, then tragically for you, it's a no. Yep.

But I'm going to take some time to think about it and then it might not be a no. It might still be a no, but if it's right now, it's a no. And I feel like that's a good way of applying to a lot of things. If it needs to be answered in this second, it's a no, unless it's a hell yes in your soul and you're like, yes, want so much, have capacity, want to do that. I think that's excellent because for me, unless someone's on fire and they need me right away

to put them out, like that is urgency. But when someone comes to me with false urgency, yeah, and that to me is always a no. Because I feel like it's happened so many times before I learned about false urgency, but when someone comes to you with a request, and it's not something that should be urgent, like no one's in peril,

but they are presenting it with urgency, that means that person is flailing. Wait, what is that phrase? Your inability to plan is not my emergency or something? Yeah, and I don't even mean it in like a judgmental way. It happens to me all the time. I fuck up and then I try to pull someone else in. But wise people do not get pulled into false urgency because when someone is drowning, they wise people do not get pulled into false urgency because when someone is drowning, they will take you down. Like you just, false urgency is always a no for me, a kind no. Okay. So this is the thing. Get yourself out of

the moment. Also realize that like there's very few things where it's needed in that moment and you can talk about schedules. You can talk about, let me check on something. Let me talk to my family. Let me see if that's doable for us. Let me think about it. Anything that gets you out of that immediate moment. Then you have to actually make the decision, right? Now that you have gotten your time.

One thing that I read about somebody doing, they were a business woman and they carried around a list in their pocket of their top three personal and professional goals for their year. And that's a bit extreme to carry it in your pocket, but they had written down at the beginning of the year, what they wanted, what their values and goals were for the year. And that when they were in a situation where they're like,

is that a yes, is that a no, I'm confused, I don't know. They would look at that and say, does it fit with my goals and values for the year? Does it match this? And if not, then I don't feel guilty because my goals and values are making the decision. It's not like a personal thing about me or a personal thing about you. And then they said that they explain it to the person. I would love to do that for you. Listen,

these are my three things that I'm really focused on this year and I can't figure out how to make this work with that. And I would love to talk about this next year and see if it's aligned. So I think that would be pretty cool. Cause it's like, if you don't know where you're going anywhere, it will take you. It's if you have that idea. Yes, very good.

In that moment where you're figuring it out, one of my favorite strategies, which I've mentioned before, but I will mention again, because I have to remind myself every day is if it's not a yes that I would want to do today or tomorrow, then I say no because for so long I lived in this world in which I would say yes to something that was three months away. Number one, because it felt far enough away to not be real. Number two, because it felt far enough away to not be real. Yep. Number two, because I felt like I was going to become

a different person before then. Yes. Kind of how I bring six hair products with me on vacation. Like the vacation version of me is going to do my hair. Exactly. Every time. Exactly. I think I'm going to wear shit I have never worn in my life.

I think I'm going to turn into a person who's going to do face masks masks and put on heels. I'm always gonna turn into a person who's doing face masks. You know this, Amanda. I bring all of this crap on the road with me, like serums and shit. I don't know, I'm gonna become this person who wears high heels again and puts on these jumpers

that have flowers on them and like I'm just gonna become this other person in a minute because I'm flying somewhere else. But no, I'm always like where are my sweats? Right. I'm the same person. Okay, so like if I'm not gonna want to like get on a panel for me It's like do you want to do this panel on a stage or do you want to know that makes me so sad today? For sure in three months, it's gonna make me sad. I'm not gonna wanna do it. And it's gonna bring me a sense of dread. Or even if it's a party, if it's something that I know

I'm not gonna wanna do tonight, I pretend. I say to myself, Glennon, is this gonna make you feel expansive and warm and joyful if you had to do it tonight? Yeah. If the answer is no, I keep being the same person all the days of my life. So three months from now I'm going to be the same person. No now, no for three months ahead of time. Okay. Can I ask a follow-up question to that? Yes. Then how do you say yes? Because I would say that one of your biggest things is that you would prefer always to just stay home, be with the kids on the couch. What are the elements then that go into you

actually do saying yes to one of these like invites to leave the house at night? Okay, well I think it would be with what Amanda just said about values, vibes, values. We just went on a trip to go to a memorial service, to go to my aunt's 85th birthday party, to then go to visit Chase where he is. Do I want to do any of those things?

Does my lazy self want to do any? No. But they were so aligned with this ache that I have to make more connections in my extended family, to reach out to my kid who's an adult now, and I, you know, like it makes me feel so warm to be that, to do that, to have done that.

It's the greater want. It's the greater want. That's what I was trying to get at. That's good, yes. The bigger, it's a capital W. Yes. It's like I lowercase don't want to leave my couch ever. I uppercase want to live a life that is full with these good things.

But what I would say is, okay, so do I want to go to my aunt's 85th birthday party? Do I want to show up for this memorial? Do I want to do all this crap it's going to take for me to spend six hours with my kid in New York City? Like, holy shit, okay. But if the same thing is like, do I want to, I get this invitation to go to this party where there's all these fancy people and it feels like I should go for my work and like it's, that is a something that's lower case. Like it's based in scarcity. It's based in like, I should show up. There's no deeper want beneath it.

It's like a frantic surface want. I think that this is great. So we're kind of classifying capital W want with a lowercase W want. How then do we categorize these things? I know we've talked about values and that feels in my head, like what I want my life to feel like.

But I do think that there is a deeper level, like a more spiritual way of deciding things here that we, I know that us three really vibe on like this warm and cold feeling that we get from the inside. Because at the end of the day, I do think that we have to make logical choices and we have to classify and categorize things. What is it in your body that creates this list of capital W's versus lowercase W's? I think it's kind of self-fulfilling prophecy in a lot of ways, the saying no and the saying yes. Like for me there's so many things that I don't want to do in the moment and then after I'm like there was a bigger yes inside of that experience.

Once I did it, I felt that is stuff I want more of. There's plenty of stuff I say yes to and I'm in it and I'm like, this is stuff I want way less of in my life. But I think maybe you've got to give yourself a little bit of, and this is going a little bit on a tangent of like what to fill your life with, as opposed to like you get asked by a friend to do something and you're feeling like you don't want to do it, but you've got to try enough things to know to experience the warmth, to know at the end of the day, like this math nets out for me. This week, my two

friends asked me to go on a walk in the morning and I was like tired and thinking, I don't want to go walking. But I remembered that when we went on a walk the week before, I felt really good the whole day after the walk. Because we talked about interesting things because we were in the sun, because I was like, I'm associating, yes, warm good with that thing. So even though in this moment, it takes me a tiny barrier to entry,

I actually know on balance I want that. I want the way that feels. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's the season to shop new styles, electronics, and definitely a holiday trip.

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simple. Start your shopping at rakuten.ca or get the Rakuten app. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N dot C-A. Don't you have a thing, Glennon, with the like should, because there's also a whole universe of, I should want to do that. Like whether it's a business opportunity, I should want to go hang out with those fancy people that can help my career. I should want to go hang out with those friends

because they seem to be having a great time. Don't you have a thing that you do with Chase and his friends of like how to know whether it's an I should or I want? So I think the kids are like me in terms of like, they come to me with, should I do this or should I do this? Okay, should I join this group? Like there's one of my kids wanted to decide

how do I join this group? And they felt like, I could tell when I was listening to what they were saying, is they felt they did wanna join this group, okay? They really did wanna like go for it and kind of join this group. But they felt like they shouldn't want to join this group. Okay, they really did want to like go for it and kind of join this group. But they felt like they shouldn't want to join the group. They felt like,

but my value is like, this maybe this feels a little fancy or it feels a little like, like a group, any kind of group is exclusive and like, I shouldn't want this thing, but I could just tell underneath that they did want the thing. Right. And there was a layer of I don't know this heady stuff of like all the shoulds. All the shoulds. It's the opposite. That's such a good point because it isn't

just I should want this. The idea of like I should not want this. I should be the kind of person that's so elevated and kind of how I was never even considered like, oh, I shouldn't, I would never do any like cosmetic stuff because then I wouldn't be a feminist or whatever. You know, it's like that kind of thing. And so I remember saying to one of them, like, this is funny, I actually told the kid, I won't say which one it was, but I told the kid that I needed to tell them

the secret that I use on them to figure out what they want in case I die, that I need them to know how to use this tool. Yeah, it's just, my poor children are always like, their mother. This is what's been keeping you alive for so long. So I need to tell you. It's a trick I use on you, but in case I die, like here, just have the trick. I don't know.

And it was something about like this one kid is constantly shoulding, you know, like all of their desire is smushed behind this web of like, but who am I inside of culture? And should people like me want this thing? And is okay to want this and like what would a better person, a perfect person want and it's just you know I relate very much. And so I don't know I wish I remembered exactly what it was but it was something like I'm listening for beneath all of this matrix of should what you really want because I feel like what you and I are talking about is whether you should want this thing or you shouldn't want this thing. But the only reason we're doing that is because underneath you really do. Or otherwise it would be the most easy thing to dismiss at all.

If you number one didn't think you should want this thing, and number two, you didn't even want that thing, we wouldn't be having this conversation because there was no conflict. So the conflict we're discussing is your brain is saying, I shouldn't want this thing, and your spirit is saying, but I want it anyway, so what should I do, mom? The conflict is between the should and the does, right?

So what I told my kid, because we're not talking about big moral issues here, they don't want something dangerous, they don't want something, this is just a desire. Do you feel like you shouldn't want to be part of that group, but you do want to be part of that group? Yeah, I think that's it. Okay, well, I'm going to tell you to go with the true want. But the should kind of gets in our way, I think.

Probably like 90% of the time that we're talking about making a decision, it's probably that. Exactly, because why would we be talking about it? The conflict. Because we want the affirmation that we have made the right decision, we are gathering a consensus, we are creating a unified front of if and when this decision gets questioned as to whether it should have been a yes or whether it should have been a no. We are clear and have caucused about this. And the right answer is the right answer I'm doing. So I'm just like gathering your permission, approval,

and consensus. I'm not actually under the guise of you're helping me make the decision. Exactly. So, usually when you're discussing with the kid a should, you're not discussing whether they want it or not. They know that. It's permission. Yeah. I have a question around the idea of thinking about the person I want to become and then

making decisions to support that person. I'm just trying to like understand this. I am a people pleaser. I really struggle to say no because I want to be quote-unquote the kind of person that people think I'm generous with my time and whatever. I think what I'm struggling with though is aren't we all just like in our heads trying to create a person of ourselves, like a personality of ourselves rather than tapping deep down into being the person that we are. Yes. Do you know what I'm saying? So like sometimes these decisions, this is all like social norms that I feel in conflict with.

It's like, oh, I socially speaking am not allowed to say exactly what I'm thinking. Like, no, I don't wanna do that. Are you crazy? Or yes, I would love to do that. I worry that sometimes we get so in our heads about the people we're supposed to be in our heads or the people we want to be in our heads

rather than just like being and owning who we are. Like in terms of decision-making, I'm really good at making decisions because I don't think, I'm not like ciphering it through. Yeah, you're not future casting it for 12 generations. No. Like Glennon and I will do sometimes. No, I'm not like ciphering it through. Yeah, you're not future casting it for 12 generations. No. And I will do some. No, I'm just like, oh no, this is what I want now.

And so this is what I'm gonna say now. Now, if somebody asks me to do something, you have taught me a tremendous amount about saying no and like how loving that can be because for a long time I put that in like the I'm not a loving person if I say no I'm like the opposite. You also had the scarcity thing which is a big part of this. You thought if I get offered a business opportunity and I don't say yes to it yes then I become a person who's not going to more offers. So you're so afraid of becoming that from a business perspective,

that also if someone asks you to do something and you say no to that, you're not a generous person. It's like we constantly need receipts. I think it's like we wanna, we have a vision of who we are and it's not necessarily fake. I think some people are. Like I'm crafting this ideal person that I really think I should be.

And so I'm living into it instead of just living and figuring out what kind of person I am. But I also think even if we are aligned with what kind of person we actually really are and we're living into that, we think it doesn't count unless we have the constant receipts. So like, I can't just trust that I am a generous of spirit person and that because I am, people will know about it or receive that. I can't just live with knowing that I am a

generous of spirit person. I need everyone else to have incontrovertible evidence. So true. And me to be able to present the daily receipts, reinforcing that it is clear unequivocally that I am a generous of spirit person. Yes. That doesn't seem like someone very confident in their personhood. But also like even the idea that I want to be a generous of spirit person. When did we decide that that was the thing? That's right.

I mean, I truly wonder about that. It's like when we don't know ourselves or we don't trust who we actually are, we default to this list of qualities that whatever our particular culture has told us we should be. And that is how we make our decisions. So I'm saying yes to this and this and this and this because I am a person who is generous of spirit, whatever the fuck that means, you know? Or I'm a person that wants to have friends. So I feel like my way of having friends is saying yes when friends ask me to do something,

even if they're doing something I have a zero interest in doing. Right and so what I have learned through trial and error for so long is like when you don't do the thing where you pack for your fake future self which saying yes to a bunch of shit that you're not feeling in your body is exactly the same as packing a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do in your body is exactly the same as packing a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with you or your future trip self. It's like making up a person that you think you should be and responding how that person would. Okay. Maybe a bunch of people like spend a bunch of time during their day thinking, God damn, Glennon is such a generous

of spirit person. I seriously doubt it. Like I doubt that anyone else is spending, like I'm not winning in other people's minds. But what about if you say, actually, I just, I freaking don't know how I'm gonna feel that day. I don't, I'm like a person who can't decide what she's gonna wanna do until a couple days before. I actually don't wanna do that. I am so grateful that you asked me because I love you so much. I'm like a person who can't decide what she's gonna wanna do until a couple days before. I actually don't wanna do that.

I am so grateful that you asked me because I love being invited to things, but I probably won't come. Whatever it is, I'm sure that, I stopped getting invited to some things. I'm sure that it doesn't always work in other people's minds. But the amount of times I have heard back,

oh wait, we can do that? You just said no, and I'm allowed to do that? What if, okay, maybe in other people's minds, I'm not generous of spirit, but what if I'm a little bit like, oh, she gives me a little permission to say no. Like what if there's another thing that you can be with lots of nos that is a good thing,

equally good to the quality we assign to saying yes to everything? I think it also innovates. It's like the improv yes and. If someone's like, want to hang out and get dinner. And I'm like, ugh, just like another fricking dinner of the same shit. You can be like a yes and, yes, I'm so excited to hang out with you.

And would you want to like go on a walk sometime instead? Yes, I am so excited. And I'm trying to like learn pickleball. Would you want to do that on Tuesdays and just mess around? Mm-hmm. There's a way that you can have that connection possibly and make it something that you want to do.

Yes, based on the type of person you are. So for me, that would look like I know that it is never, ever going to be satisfying or comfortable or happy or connection-making for me to go to large gatherings. But I do know that I love actually getting to know another person. I know that I don't love sitting with somebody like usually one on one and staring at them across a table. It makes me nervous. I don't. So if somebody invites me to a party or somebody says, do you want to go grab coffee? I could say, I'm not a party person. I don't want

to sit and have coffee. Do you want to like go for a walk with it? Let's go walk and grab a coffee and go together for a walk. If that person hates walking, this is a helpful exercise. They're saying what they want. I'm saying what I want. If those things do not match, we're not a match. Great. Yeah, well, hold on. I agree with that. And I do think that there is an element of this,

like knowing how to say no is one part of this equation, but also knowing how to ask is equally important. So for me, I'm sitting here thinking about but also knowing how to ask is equally important. So for me, I'm sitting here thinking about the things that we do, and we don't ask a lot of our friends or our people. Would you agree? I don't know what you mean yet.

I'm just saying in terms of having dinner with folks, it's usually somebody asking us, hey, do you wanna get some dinner? Or, you know, I have this thing, do you want to come to it? That's true, but we don't have any dinners or things. We wouldn't have anything to invite people to. But that's my point, like I think that part of this thing too is I don't think that we put ourselves in a position to ask of much. And I wonder if we can change the way we ask people things so that it gives the other party a way of saying yes and also saying no like both things are true. For instance with Liz Gilbert, what does she always

say around... No cherished outcomes. No cherished outcomes. And so it makes me want to say yes, almost every time Liz asks to be a part of anything. So what Abby's talking about is, Liz, there was this poem that she sent me in the very beginning of our friendship that was about how she thought we should be friends, but basically she was saying,

our contract will be through this poem she sent me, our contract will be that we will never demand anything of each other, that we will offer each other our hearts, but we will have no cherished outcome, which is actually quite a beautiful thing because so if Liz invites us somewhere, if she asks us for whatever, she always adds but no cherished outcomes, which basically means I am asking you this thing because I love you and I want your presence but your yes I will celebrate your no I will celebrate equally as much. She doesn't have an aim that she's trying to get from us it's an open-hearted invitation and what she wants is for us to do exactly what we want. Yeah and that's rare.

Yeah, it is. Because isn't it true that like we get so much into our head when some of these asks come in and these like needs and conversations we have with ourselves like, well, if I say no, I feel bad. And then what are they gonna think about it? So it's like, maybe that's what we need to do is create relationships that are strong enough

and grounded enough that the people in your life you can say, hey, I want to do this thing. If it's a no, awesome. If it's yes, awesome. Equally on the same par, right? Yeah. I think we should move to practically how to do it. So like if you know what you want, you've taken the time, you have studied your uppercase W want and you're like, okay, this either is in line with that or not. You have decided not to should all over yourself and instead like honoring what your actual funny little desire is. And you know. And can I ask one question before we move into that? Because that's what we need to go to is the practical but I want to just ask one thing before we move into that how practical. Okay I'm listening to all of us talk about yeses and nos and okay is it possible that our capacity to yes

or no or maybe is based a little bit in our attachment style. I'm asking that because of this. Yes. Abby struggles with saying no. Yep. I struggle with saying yes. Okay. Saying no is not a problem for me. And I don't mean that in a braggy way because I think it's equally detrimental to not know when to say yes, as it is to not know when to say no. And I wonder- Yeah, you're the island girl, right? Right, right.

I wonder if securely attached people have an easier time with yeses and nos, and if anxiously avoidant, Abby self-identifies as an anxiously attached person, which means she is always worried when the world asks anything of her or a person asks anything of her. She is worried that if she does not say yes,

she's gonna lose that person, that love, that job, that moment, that reputation, whatever. I'm scared I'm gonna lose you. So I say yes. An avoidantly attached person like me, and we're both working towards secure, I feel like we're getting there. I feel like we are.

Yes, but my default in moments of stress or uncertainty, which anytime someone asks something of you, that's a moment of uncertainty. In my moments of uncertainty, moments of stress, I go to avoidant behaviors, which are, I am scared if I say yes to you, I'm going to lose me. So Abby's always worried I'm going to lose you, the other person. And I'm always worried I'm going to lose me. That person's request of me, whatever this is, is going to just, I don't know, just take

me over and I'm going to have no self and I'm gonna lose myself in this other person or this other event or this other whatever and so it's a no. So I wonder if, I just think that's important to note. Like if you are a person who it's hard for you to say no, maybe there's a little anxious stuff going on. Maybe people, and if you're a person who's always saying no, who's listening to this and being like,

Jesus Christ, will somebody teach me how to say yes, which would be me, maybe you're scared to lose yourself. Right? Maybe there's a balance here that people who, you know, these elusive, securely attached people, whoever the hell they are, that they actually know in moments of uncertainty, this is not a moment where I'm about to lose myself

or this other person. I'm just trying to figure out if this is best for both of us. If there's not a fear, scarcity, panic, overtaking moment that unconsciously guides us to either say yes or no. Yeah. I think it probably makes a ton of sense that that's the case. I think it probably makes a ton of sense if that's the case.

I mean, it does encapsulate everything. It has to do with, are you accepted? Are you still part of the belonging? Can you be both who you are and have what you want and still be embraced by this workplace, by this friend group, by this family, can you be held and free? Can you be free to say no

and still held close by these people? Or is the price of being part of it mean letting go of any part of you that conflicts with that? So I think it is to the heart of the matter. And on the flip side, can I say yes to this thing and still have my freedom? So Abby's would be, can I say no to this thing and still have belonging? And if she thinks unconsciously, no, then she just, I can't have both.

Then she just says, yes, real quick. My thing would be, can I say yes to this thing and still have my freedom and still have my sovereignty and still have my individuality and my default when I'm not thinking it through carefully is no. And what you've just said and we're going to get to later is a big part of the whole take it or leave it binary that we have right now in the world, where it's like, we believe that if we say yes to something, so Lady Gaga has this great quote that we're talking about when she was like going to leave music completely. And she was going to leave music after she looked at it for a long time because she hated selling fucking perfume and taking selfies all day.

Which, if you think about it, is not music. Exactly. But we live in a world where we do that exact same thing all the time. And it's like, it isn't a take it or leave it. You don't have to leave music because you hate selling perfume. You can say no to selling perfume and make music. You can say no to being at the bar to 2 a.m. and say yes

to friendship. You don't have to be either or. And you don't have to throw it all away because you hate 50% of it. Well, then when you think about it, that's the binary of yes and no. If all the discussion we're having is, do I say yes or no? All that is is reactive to something someone else is presenting us with. What if it's not yes, not no, I'm creating. It's not that I'm just constantly responding yes or no to your idea, world, company, music industry, whatever. But I'm actually bringing my full self to this moment, to this situation and saying, can we create something new?

I say neither yes nor no to your idea. I feel your desire and let's create something new a third way together. Right. Right, right. This feels complicated to me in a lot of ways because of my anxious attachment and because I really value generosity and being like the kind of person that shows up for people, like I really do value it.

It makes it even harder for me to say no, because I have so many of these value systems in place while also knowing I have this anxious attachment that my instinct and my fear forces me in a lot of ways to say yes. Well, do you trust Abby that you are a generous person? Yes, but I have to tell the story. Do you trust?

Yes, I do. That you show up for your people. I do. Okay, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You believe strongly that you are a generous person period. Yes. And that you show up for people. Yes. So if then that is already done. Yes, it's that is who you are.

It is. It is. But here's what I have. I have a problem now. Looking back in my life. I have there's something that's happening in me. We did this podcast with Tobin and Kristen on their recap show. And Tobin wanted to acknowledge my generosity on the podcast. And this other thing happened inside of me. I don't even think we really talked about it.

Maybe we talked about a little bit. But this thing was happening that like really floored me that her expression, the receipt of my generosity that she was handing me and we're talking you know this is like a 12, 10 year old story. I felt really bad about it because I knew that that decision wasn't fully based in my generosity. And when she said it, I kind of got like the ick for myself. So now I'm having this beautiful awakening around decisions

that I've made throughout my life that I'm able to see a lot more clearly because I'm really trying to make the decision, like true decisions that like are like full body yeses. And I can see this younger version of myself who's just desperate for the love, who's desperate to really believe that I'm just, I am a generous person,

but I was so generous that I lost myself. I was so generous that I was not generous to myself, that I was hurting myself. I was like almost like losing myself in a way. And so I think that that is an important thing that we can then utilize. It's like a way of determining some of these present day or future day yeses and nos.

Look back on your former and your past yeses and nos and how those made you feel. I think it's what you've just said is a perfect setup for what we'll talk about going forward, the next piece of this. Because if you already know who you are and you feel confident in that, then you're not doing further things to reinforce and stay secure in who you believe you are. That's right. And then the scary truth of it, which I live in this world

too, Abby, so I understand what you're saying. This scary kind of ugly underbelly of what you're doing to appear to be in line with those values that you are allegedly secure in is a transaction. that you are allegedly secure in is a transaction. You are transacting. You're showing up. You are paying with your generosity in exchange for the dopamine hit that is telling you you are good enough, you are worthy, you it is a cheap consolation prize that you are paying dearly for to have security in who you are, which by the way is not security because you have to keep paying down that debt. Yes and it's from shame right? It's from unworthiness. Unworthiness. Unworthiness. You have to keep paying the debt of your unworthiness to every day, not feel unworthy of what people are saying about you, who they are saying you are. You have to keep reinforcing

that because everyone thinks I'm amazing. Everything else I'm generous. Tobin's telling me I'm generous. I feel even shittier because I know I'm not really. And so next time someone asks me, I got to show up because I am already been told I am. This is the transaction and the payment and it's never secure. And that's why people are always saying yes at their jobs because they're, they're so insecure. They don't know they haven't done enough. They've never done enough. And it is deeply, deeply insecure. And it's the same reason we can't say to Glennon, when we say to say to our kids, you're bad, you're bad, you're bad. We can't say you're good, you're good, you're good. Because then they're going to start paying that debt forever.

That's right. It comes from all the yeses when we want to say no, come from our belief that our worthiness isn't what we can do for you. And what you will say about us if we do that thing for you. It's not my worthiness in this relationship is just that I exist. It's all transactional. I think that, I mean, we had so many talks about like, you know, if you're a person who's constantly grabbing the bill for things, this is sort of a fake yes, right? It's like, this is a big thing that Abby and I had to like.

I was like, I will not, like I, if I'm going to a restaurant with a group of people, I'm not talking about the occasional generous whatever, but like, I have to believe that I am here because they want me here. I'm not gonna have a transaction at the end where it feels like, and this is not, has nothing to do with having a lot of money.

Like Abby, when you had no money, would constantly pick up the check for everybody. And it was because she would say, I just wanna be generous to my friends, but that is not what it was. It was, I feel like I am not even worthy at this table unless I do something for you. There was also guilt in a lot of that for me

because I was making more money than my teammates and we'd all be at a dinner table and I'd be like, I'll just, I'll pick up the check I'm making. And I wasn't making a shit, shit ton of money. I was, you know, paying my bills, making money more than they were. So. But it's a metaphorical.

And you did that with friends. You know, like throughout life. Yeah, for sure. I apologize for being here and also, I'm gonna make an insurance policy to ensure I could be here next time. That's exactly right. Yeah.

That's exactly right. And I lived my life a lot like that. And so when Tobin was telling the story, I just was sitting there like, oh, I felt like that poor kid, a poor young kid, because I don't I'm not like that way. I mean, would you say that I'm like that still? No, but I think your generosity of spirit is even more visible. It's amazing of all people that you would feel like

you needed to prove that generosity of spirit through these transactions, because you are such a deeply generous in spirit person. And I think that shows up more when you're not doing the transactional things. But if you have a generosity of spirit person, personality and worthiness, that's like. Problem.

No, that's the most beautiful thing in the world. Oh, both, both, both. Got it, got it, got it. And your want is so, your capital W want, Abby of who you are, is so absurdly gigantic. I remember, did you feel a sense of obligation or need to show receipts to show up for me in my surgery? Or was that a want?

No, big want, big W. So you, pod squad, Abby shows up for my surgery. She's the only one that goes back with me for my surgery. The first two nights of surgery, she decides that she doesn't trust anyone enough, including me, to administer to me my medicine. And also she wants to not have me have to wake up to an alarm because she wants me to be able to sleep as much possible through the night. So she sleeps on a couch, sets six alarms throughout the night and has all six of my medicines set out in front of her on the couch.

So she sleeps on a different floor than me. So her alarm can go off. So she can pick up my medicine, walk up to my room, just touch me gently on the shoulder, put the pills in my mouth, and walk down to sleep for another like hour and a half until her next alarm goes off. So I barely wake up the whole night for two nights,

take all my medicine. Okay, this is the kind of showing up generous person she is. And the next day she's standing in my room going, these are the best times of life. These are the best times of life. This is my favorite part of life. I love this. That is your, so like you don't have to do things

you don't want to do when what you want to do is so ridiculous. I think that's a really important point. When you're acting like you should be a certain way, you don't have to act it because you are that thing. And so here's something, okay, if you're going against your want, you are a person of great generosity. If you are going against a want

to do something that you think is generous, that's not out of generosity. That's how you know. If it's something else and you don't want to, that's against your true self and your true self is generosity of spirit. So that is how you know that it's from something else. It's from unworthiness. It's from ego.

Why would somebody want to pick up the check all the time? It's transactional, but it's also ego-based. I am important. This is not an equal situation. Maybe that's the reason to have your values listed, right? Because then you can measure it against, is this thing coming out of this value? Because sometimes things can feel or look

like they are coming from a place of generosity and really be from something else. And maybe you can tell the difference by if it's a true want. It's good. Should we end here? Yeah. And then move on to the next episode

where we figure out actually how to do these yeses and nos and maybes? Great. Do you want to do that? Is this a big want for all of you or are you just doing this because you should? It's a big- No, I think we need to do what's practically-

It's a big want. It's a big want. No, we do. We do, we need to do the practical thing. Okay. All right a big one. No, we do. We do. We need to do the practical thing. Okay. All right. Then we're just leaving people like, great, great. Now I know I don't want to do it. What the hell do I do now? Okay. And what should people think about before we go into the practical one of the next episode? What's the job here? Like what's the work of this before we get to the practical? Yeah. Like how do people, what should they think about in terms of what they're saying yes

and no to? I think it's really powerful what Abby just talked about. That probably undergirds a lot of our doing things that we don't want to do, that we don't have capacity to do, that we don't have budget to do, is who... What am I trying so hard to prove? Yeah, to project, to... Yeah, and is that just a fake self? Am I trying to prove that I love you? Am I trying to prove that I'm a good friend? I wanna do this to be a good friend. No, no, no, are you a fake self? Am I trying to prove that I love you? Am I trying to prove that I'm a good friend?

I wanna do this to be a good friend. No, no, no, are you a good friend? Are you already a good friend? Then show up in the ways that are true to you in being a good friend. You know, this kind of things, like do you trust that you can be that without acting against yourself?

Without slipping into this kind of icky transactional stuff. And it's a slippery slope. It's hard. It's a pretty gray line between like that. But I think that's like the bigger spiritual piece of it is like when you hear you're amazing or when you hear you're generous or when you hear you're amazing, or when you hear you're generous, or when you hear you're such an amazing worker, does that feel like it's feeding a part of who you are? Or does that feel like it's feeding the engine that will require you to continue to say yes to things? I love that.

It's like that pause. That pause. What's the point of that pause? That point of that pause is a returning. It's getting you out of the thing, the person that you think you should be. I want to be a person who does, I want to be, I should be this person. It's getting you out of the should, the future fake self that you're trying to create and project and returning to who you actually are. This is about a full acceptance of self. This is about saying, it's like giving up on hope.

It's like forgiveness is giving up on hope that your past could have been any different. And sanity is giving up that your future self is gonna be any different than who you are today. And who you are today is good enough. Right? It's giving up the control of the management of your brand. You're just going to be yourself.

You're not going to manage the perception of your brand. I'm going to trust that I'm gonna do a good enough job at work. I'm not gonna need to show the receipts. I'm not gonna need to send the emails at two o'clock in the morning. I'm not going to need to say yes to every offer. I'm going to trust that my work is good enough.

Also, I'm gonna do that in friendship. Also, I'm gonna do that in my family. Also, I'm gonna do, like, I don't need to keep pounding out the receipts that show that, and I don't need to keep pounding out the receipts that show that and I don't need to control whether you think I am. It's enough that I know I am. God, it's just so important to not to give up the idea that you can live in other people's minds that your success, your okayness is contingent upon what a bunch of other brains think of you. It's a returning and realizing. And it's insatiable. Yeah. That's the other thing. It's

unsustainable and insatiable. If you are trying to do that, you are never done. Because every single time you have to do it again, because you're only as good as your last yes. That's right. That's right. It's an addiction. Feels like addiction to me. every single time you have to do it again because you're only as good as your last yes. That's right. That's right. It's an addiction. Feels like addiction to me. Okay, perfect.

Anyways. Great. So. Good job. We'll wrap there. When we come back, sweet precious pod squad, don't worry, we're gonna figure out how the hell if we figure out we're living in the should and the fake future self who's gonna wear heels and jumpers and use a face mask across the board in our life. And

definitely blow-dry our hair. Oh for sure we're definitely bringing a blow dryer probably a curling iron. If you would like to just accept who you are and make decisions from there and let go of the picture in your head of how you are supposed to be, which is the entire point of this entire podcast. We will come back and figure out how we do that. We love you Pod Squad. Go forth and say no if you're Abby and consider saying yes if you're me. We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds

to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing

to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman,

and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Ellison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.