We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How to Spot a Narcissist with Caroline Strawson (Best Of)

Episode Date: May 17, 2025

Trauma therapist (and survivor of marriage to a narcissist) Caroline Strawson joins us to discuss: how to know if someone’s really a narcissist; how to know if you’re more likely to get into a relationship with a narcissist (and avoid it); strategies for parallel parenting with a narcissist; how the brain and body respond to narcissists; and how to rebuild after ending a relationship with a narcissist.  CW: Abusive relationships, self harm For more related episodes, check out: ⁠Episode 170 The Most Radical Way to Heal: Internal Family Systems with Dr. Becky Kennedy⁠, ⁠Episode 169 Why We Love the Way We Love: Attachment Styles with Dr. Becky Kennedy⁠, and ⁠Episode 142 Codependence: How to Stop Controlling Others with Melody Beattie⁠ About Caroline:  Caroline Strawson is a Trauma Therapist and Coach specializing in helping others heal from the trauma and shame of narcissistic abuse. She hosts the Narcissistic Abuse & Trauma Recovery Podcast and is the #1 best selling author of Divorce Became My Superpower. Having been married to a covert narcissist herself, Caroline was in debt, lost her family home, and was at rock bottom with PTSD, depression, anxiety, and self-harm. Caroline integrates Internal Family Systems, Somatic Experiencing, Brainspotting and breath work with positive psychology, to help others move from post traumatic stress to post traumatic growth. TW: ⁠@cstrawson11⁠ IG: ⁠@carolinestrawson To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we're going to learn about narcissists. What types of people tend to end up with narcissists? How we can spot narcissists in our life. We are going to try to narcissist proof ourselves during the next hour. And to help us with that, we have a wonderful, fascinating expert. Her name is Caroline Strossen.

She's a trauma therapist and coach specializing in helping others heal from the trauma and shame of narcissistic abuse. She hosts the Narcissistic Abuse and Trauma Recovery Podcast and is the number one bestselling author of Divorce Became My Superpower. I feel you on that, Caroline. Having been married to a covert narcissist herself, Caroline was in debt, lost her family home and was at rock bottom with PTSD, depression, anxiety, and self harm. Caroline integrates internal family systems, yay,

somatic experiencing, yay. Brain spotting and breath work with positive psychology to help others move from post-traumatic stress to post-traumatic growth. Ooh, post-traumatic growth. I like that reframe. I do too. Have you not heard of that?

No, no. Have you not heard of post-traumatic, I've heard of it too. Ah, yeah. It's great. It's a positive psychology term we use where we actually go on and lead an even better life because of the trauma you've been through. It's phenomenal. It's a real passion of mine. Yeah.

I love that term. I love that. I already feel like I've learned enough. So that's it. Yeah. OK. Let's put the kettle on. Go ahead.

So narcissism is a term that people throw around casually, but it's a real thing like ADHD, like gaslighting, depression, it's a condition, a real diagnosis, but it's also, it's on a spectrum. So what are some of the characteristics of someone who is on the narcissism spectrum? Can you tell us so we can avoid them when choosing friendships and romantic relationships? Please help us!

I know! God, I'll help myself here. I think it's a really interesting concept when we talk about narcissism, because it is a diagnosable condition. It's listed in the DSM, along with lots of other mental health disorders. And in the DSM, they list nine traits and to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, you have to have five or more. The problem being though, with medicalizing narcissistic personality disorders, a number of things. One, it's only five traits of nine that you are supposed to get the diagnosis. And actually, there's over 30.

It isn't just this linear nine things that you would get if you were a narcissist. There are many, because there's many different types of narcissists too. The other problem with making it a diagnosis, and I see this online, you know, with a lot of my posts on Instagram, are they diagnosed? Now the problem is, and I'm sure we've all encountered narcissists, no narcissist will ever go, hey, do you think I'm a narcissist? I need to go and get a diagnosis.

That was my question. No, no. Are narcissists diagnosed secondhand? Is it an indirect diagnosis? Yeah, it normally is. Have you been diagnosed with denial? No, by definition, you were in denial. And the problem being is that is one of the traits of a narcissist, zero ownership and projection all of the time. So they really, the only time where

people actually do get a diagnosis is often if they're in a relationship and the other person says, we need to go to therapy, we need to fix this. And they do it from a cognitive perspective, do get a diagnosis is often if they're in a relationship and the other person says we need to go to therapy, we need to fix this, and they do it from a cognitive perspective thinking they can probably triangulate with the therapist as such, and then they may end up with a diagnosis. But all the research, it's very, very rare. And this is what makes it such a divisive subject. Because we've medicalized it, because we've said, okay, they're not a narcissist unless they have a diagnosis. But if you had flu, you wouldn't need to go to the doctor

and get a diagnosis for that. And actually the term narcissist is really for the survivor to know that it's not their fault. And this is why I love internal family systems as well, because how I talk about narcissism is is narcissists aren't born that way. They are created from childhood. So going back to some of your questions, so they're created from childhood and they are actually some of the most wounded individuals out there. And what happens is they have this emotional wound, the narcissism is created in childhood. and if we look at IFS in this instance, IFS is based on,

we all have the essence of who we are, our true self. We have these childhood traumas that creates what we call exiles, these inner child wounds. And as human beings we're built for survival, so our protective parts will come up to diminish and minimize the pain of what our systems think would be the most pain to feel. Now with a narcissist, their protector parts are things like gaslighting, manipulation, coercive control. So I tend to look at a narcissist as an individual who has gone through childhood trauma.

They then have these protector parts that are abusive and very reactive, and we can label then the collection of protector parts that are abusive and very reactive. And we can label then the collection of protector parts that are abusive of that individual as a narcissist. And that could be a whole array of protector parts. So just because we call them protector parts doesn't mean they're not destructive. And I like that because we can do the same with codependency for instance as well, who are the magnets to a narcissist. I want to talk about that because Caroline, you were married to a narcissist, but you did not know that until he left you. So walk us through the piecing together of that for

you, where you begin to connect the pieces and understand him as a narcissist and understand what you went through as narcissistic abuse. And before you do that, Caroline, I just have one question with my always worried about the person who's not here and underdog thing, and then I'm going to get over that. And then we're going to move on to this. I have depression and anxiety and all the things. You know how there was a time when nobody would claim that and there was all this stigma around it. Are we ever gonna go to a time where narcissists, a stigma has gone from it and narcissism is something

that people are working on actively and are embracing that label or is that impossible inherently in the condition? Cause it's a condition. I agree. And I think that's why I like the IFS, the way we can look at that. Because there's still compassion. There's still human compassion that they're wounded individuals. And we can explain the abuse even though we're not excusing it. We can

still understand it. And I think from research, from science right now, there is no cure for narcissism. But what we do know is things like psychedelics actually have helped some, but not to the extent where they're still able to be in a healthy relationship. It can minimize and dial down potentially some of the abusive protector parts, but not to the extent where they are really capable of having a healthy relationship. So who knows as of now, no. But again, from a compassion perspective, who knows what the future will hold. I think the problem with saying that they can be cured or they can be, if you're in a relationship then and somebody else says, I'm with a narcissist and now they're

okay, you start to think, well, am I not good enough? I can't heal this person then. And that actually isolates people even further. Okay. thank you for that. I'm so sorry. Please go back to Ceci's question. So when we are talking about narcissism, when I was in my marriage, you know, I was brought up on happily ever afters, you know, Disney stories, all of these things, keep your family together at all costs. So when I was in my relationship, I started to feel like things weren't right. And after we had our son, things really started to go downhill. But again, my parents were still together. We stayed together. I made my vows and that was it. We were going to be together. I didn't want to be a single mom, all of these things, but

I knew things weren't right. And he used to work away from home a lot. Then when I was pregnant with my daughter, I'd had four miscarriages between my son and my daughter. So you can imagine it was a really traumatic time and I felt very alone. And then when I did fall pregnant with my daughter, six months into that, he had an affair. And probably from then, things really went downhill too. But even with that, and even when I found out about the affair,

I eventually, when he admitted it, the evidence obviously stacked up. But I ended up comforting him about having an affair because he had it because I was sick in pregnancy. So, and also the woman he was having an affair with, I also comforted her. So, pro-dependency to the extreme, right? I'll make it OK that you was having an affair with, I also comforted her. So, pro dependency to the extreme, right? I'll make it okay that you've had an affair. And my mom passed away 14 years ago,

actually today, relatively, dividing dimensions that it's today. And because that happened a year before we split up, again, I was focused on looking after my family, my dad, all of these things, but I knew things weren't right. I was feeling isolated from friends after my family, my dad, all of these things, but I knew things weren't right. I was feeling isolated from friends, from family, but again, I was focusing on being a mom.

At all costs, I keep my family together because I didn't want people to judge me, and I felt like a failure if my marriage ended. And actually, he ended up leaving me because he obviously met somebody else, but I realized I'd completely lost myself. I did not recognize myself. I was looking down all of the time which is signs of shame.

When I came out, I actually started seeing a therapist. I remember he said to me, go and Google narcissistic personality disorder. I remember going home and I was like, oh my god. What were the things you were reading that made you feel? So it was things like predominantly the gaslighting side of it. And I felt like everything was my fault in the marriage. And I felt like there'd been pretty major things that had happened. So multiple affairs, financial element, I'd been totally isolated. I was earning more than my husband when we got together.

And then I had very limited work that I was doing. I was a stay at home mom. And some of the things that he would say to me, and I would question things like he came back from work one day and said he killed somebody. Now we can kind of go, what? That's not happened. But when you're in it and then he's explaining things to you and looking you in the eye, you start to think, well, maybe it did happen.

And then I was a bit of a detective and trying to find things because my gut was saying that's not true. But then I thought my husband's looking me in the eye and telling me it is. And it was really confusing. So there was a lot of times where he would say things to me and I would really start to question myself. Am I going crazy here? What was the point of him telling you that he killed somebody? Yeah, go back to that because people are going to be like, wait, what the what?

But he had said that he had failed to give someone proper CPR at work and his reaction was therefore I killed someone. And so that's a perfect example of look at it from this perspective. Is that true? Look at it from this. And it gets worse even with regards to that. So he came home and it was eight hours late coming home and I was really worried. So he'd come up with this story and it's about what had happened. When he came home, he worked for an airline. So when he came home and I was like, Oh my God, are you okay? But it didn't make sense.

Obviously having a medical background myself and the things he was saying, I was questioning him on that. And rather than him answering the questions, what a narcissist will do, will hone in on how you ask the questions. Stop asking me that, ah! You know, so you're kind of like, oh, okay.

Not answering the question, but how you are. And it got to the stage where I did keep hounding him for a couple of days saying, you need to speak to the airline. They should have let me know you were eight hours late. So when he went back to work, I said, you need to speak to your line manager about this. You know, it's not acceptable. Anyway, he called me off and he goes, you'll never guess what. And I was like, what? He said, she's actually really grateful

and sent in a letter of thanks because she survived and I actually saved her life. Ah! Now we can laugh, that's the thing. We laugh about all of these things, but when you are in it and somebody is saying that and it's so confusing because it's like, that can't be true, but he's telling me it is.

So you're kind of left. And it gets to the stage where you just think, there's no point me asking. And this is where we isolate ourselves. We retreat. We become very lonely. We're filled with shame because we know the marriage isn't right. But we're worried if we tell people, because narcissists are very different in public than they are in private. And everybody thought he was a great father, a great husband, and all of this was going on behind closed doors, which increases the shame around it as well. Do we know now that he was just having a fair during that time? Or was that story at all true? Yeah, it wasn't true. And believe me, there are plenty more like that of these stories.

And I look back even afterwards, and I kept thinking, did he know he was lying or did he actually feel the truth to him in those moments? And I don't really know the answer. But what I do know is, and again, this comes from a trauma informed and IFS lens, his core wounds, because I know what his childhood was like, his core wounds were to not feel his pain. So just like a toddler would, they will say and do anything to get out of anything. They will project outwardly. So he would say and do anything up until that point. He couldn't get away with it. Literally. And I even on those occasions, I remember even seeing like a flicker of, can I still get away with this? And then he'd admit something and then he'd start crying. And then obviously the codependent me would kick in

and I would comfort him. And that was like the cycle of our relationship. Wow. Okay. Thank you for sharing that. So does he know he's a narcissist? No. No.

So he is unaware. So he thinks- It's like a trick question. Right? It is. It is. So he thinks that you are bananas. Like all this work you're doing. And you are co-parenting, but not really co-parenting because you can't co-parent with a narcissist. Parallel parenting. Tell us about that. Parallel. So parallel parenting

is really a term we use. And the thing is our court systems are broken around abusive relationships. They're not trauma informed. And this makes it so challenging for people going through that. And I've not met somebody, and I know there will be people out there who do this, but I've never met someone who's deliberately trying to stop the other parent from seeing their children. I'm sure there are people who do that, but I've never met one in my communities. So what parallel parenting is, is really where we can tick the boxes for the court, where it looks like we're co-parenting. We have a communication system set up which we call extreme modified contact.

So we still have maybe a separate, totally separate email address for them as well. I always advise people to go and get like, you know, one of those old brick knockier phones that we used to get like years ago, like massive. Go and get one of those so it's not coming in on your regular phone because especially when people are trauma bonded, for instance, when the relationship has ended and you're looking to keep that communication going. So you still need to tick the boxes, say from the court that you're still going to have

communication set up. So yes, I have an email. Yes, there's this for emergencies. So think about parallel parenting like a train track. So one side of the track is one parent. The other side of the track is the other parent, the narcissist. The carriage is the children. So the carriage can still run smoothly, but those tracks never meet as well. So it's really important to disengage because narcissistic abuse is trauma. It is abuse. And our nervous

systems go totally dysregulated. We go into a fight, flight, freeze, or even form responses in this. So we need to focus on our mental health. Just like, you know, when we're parenting, we need to put our oxygen mask on first. So we have to focus on our mental health. Yes, still have some forms of communication to tick the boxes for the systems that are out there, but we have to focus on our own mental health because otherwise it's so challenging. Okay, so narcissistic abuse is abuse. In most abusive situations when you're co-parenting, you then can protect your child from that abuse by bringing it to the court and then the court understands that this is a dangerous place for a child to be. Are people married or divorced from narcissists

uniquely situated to have to send their child into an abusive situation? Because if a narcissistic parent is narcissistic, aren't they definitely going to do the same thing to your child? And how do you talk to your child about the partner's narcissism and protect them? It's so difficult and there's no easy answer to that because again a narcissist whether it be going through court or not will portray themselves to the system of this loving parent as well and it can make it really challenging and they get labeled as high conflict divorces and they're not high conflict divorces they're divorces with an abuser. And I think this is the key thing, but a narcissist will create high conflict divorces

because whatever you say, they will say the opposite. And also if you're going through the court system, narcissists can be very convincing in given moments. They can be very charming and look like the perfect parent even. And this is why when we look at things from a trauma-informed lens as well, if you imagine polyvagal theories where we talk about the nervous system is on a hierarchy.

I talk about it from a traffic light perspective. So the green light is when we're in ventral vagal, our social engagement system. The yellow light is when we're in the fight-flight response and producing more cortisol in our sympathetic. And the red light is in where we're in dorsal vagal. We're in shutdown, we're in freeze. Often the child when they're with the narcissistic parent will be in a freeze response, okay? They'll be in the red light. They're protecting themselves. But externally, somebody looking at that child in that situation might think, well, actually they look really well behaved. They look that they're fine with that parent. But if someone is in trauma, yeah, if they're not trauma aware, they will think, well, everything's okay.

Now the problem being even more so is when the child goes back to the non-abusive, non-narcissistic parent, because we know that the nervous system is on a hierarchy, the child will shift then into a sympathetic response, be a lot more aggressive sometimes, anxiety ridden. It looks like, well, hold on, look at how the child is with you and look at how they are with the others. And if someone isn't trauma informed, it can be so challenging. And that's why the whole system is broken because sadly they don't understand how a child behave when they are in trauma and how that presents. So, you know, often, yeah, often I will say to parents, if they are more aggressive, more anxious with you,

it's actually because they feel safer with you. Exactly. And they're in freeze when they're with the narcissistic parent. It feels to me like this is a shit show. That's my official diagnosis. And is- Put it mildly. Yes, so let's move backwards

and let's talk about how to avoid this shit show. What are some red flags? I know that you've said sometimes it takes to like a sixth date or something to really start to be able to identify someone as a narcissist. Can you give us some red flags in people, narcissism, simple things that we might be able to see?

So when you initially start being in a relationship with a narcissist, and again, narcissists can be loving relationships, they can be parents, friends, co-workers, whomever. If you think they want to hook you in, so their drug of choice is what we call narcissistic supply. So they're going to behave in a certain way to get you hooked in so you can continue to give them narcissistic supply. So they're going to say and do all of these things that actually your inner being is absolutely craving to hear. Oh, is that love bombing? Is that what love bombing is? Yes, it is exactly what love bombing is. So again, those of us who end up in relationships with narcissists will have a real sort of, I'm not good enough wounds, I'm worthless, I'm not important, I'm unlovable. So we will have a people pleasing part and we'll

show you what a good girlfriend we are, what a good wife we are, what a good sister, daughter, friend, co-worker we are. And what the narcissist will do is they will say things to you that really fill that hole in your soul as such as well. But the red flags of this will be things like, all my exes are crazy. I mean, and again, these could be anybody as well. But if they're coming all together with this, I see how we're all nodding our heads. Another one is they'll say, I love you very, very early on. I've never felt like this before. I really love you. And this can be like on the third date, for instance. Okay. They'll want to move in with you very, very quickly as well.

This could also just be a lesbian. All lesbians just turn their... So far. The diagram with lesbians and narcissists. So can we get past that? Something that doesn't apply to all lesbians. Okay. Okay. So remember, this isn't just singularly, this is kind of collectively as well.

Yeah, we're not saying that. We're not going to... Definitely not. So the other things that are there. Let's say you go out for a meal, okay? And they're quite rude to the waiting staff. These start to be red flags. They're trying to impress you

and kind of exert their sense of power, for instance. They'll start to subtly say things about maybe your appearance, how you dress. They might start to say things about your friends and your family. One of the key red flags is when you initially start out in a relationship, and let's say you've got a circle of friends, or maybe you're due to go out with your friends that weekend,

they will start during that week to bring up things just to keep like dropping little bombs towards you about, are you sure you want to go out? Didn't so-and-so say that about you the other day? They'll start to tranchorate, a divide between you and your friends. Then they will normally, right before your due to go, cause a big argument.

So when you eventually, if you go out, that is, but if you do go out, you spend your evening there messaging the narcissist and you're not present with your friends. So then when you go back and you're with the narcissist, they say, well, didn't your friends mind you messaging me? Maybe they won't want to go out with you again. And they'll just start to plant all of these seeds because they want to isolate you from your friends and your family. And they'll do the same thing with family. You say that about your mom, your dad, you know, they don't

understand you like I do. And they'll just create that divide because what the narcissist wants is you alter themselves so you can keep feeding their wounds, their supplies, so they feel better. They want to control you in all of that as well. Is that the key? They're trying to get fed? Say more about that.

Yeah. What is the point of the narcissist? So it's the same for all of us as human beings. We will all have some form of trauma, these emotional wounds that normally have come from our childhood where we've interpreted certain situations in a way. My father was very unemotional.

So for me, if I did really well at school or I was good at sport, I was always seeking praise and approval from my dad, which never came. But as that child, my interpretation of it never coming was, it must be me, children are very egocentric. It must be because of me. So I need to try harder, do more, be more. And that created really an emotional wound,

my exile of I'm not good enough. So my system then, it's almost like that was my biggest wound that my nervous system didn't want to feel. So I would have lots of protective parts coming up like high achieving, people pleasing, perfectionism. Glennon, just like you were saying, I always look at everybody as parts and I use a lot of parts language. When I work with people, you don't have anxiety, a part of you is anxious. And that anxiety part is trying to protect you from feeling something that your system thinks would be too dangerous for you to

feel. So when we look at things like this, say from a narcissist perspective, their protective parts that are coming up, like love bombing or emotional abuse or control or manipulation is projecting their pain outwardly for someone else to behave in a certain way. So it actually soothes their wounds. And it's the same for all of us. The problem being with a narcissist is their protective parts then become their false sense of self. You can never get beyond that to work on that inner child wound. And it means then, like all of us, we would take some ownership responsibility. We could work around all of this and we'd look at that. Narcissists don't. If I could work with a narcissist and help them heal those inner child wounds, I'd do it in a

heartbeat. The problem being is they don wounds. I do it in a heartbeat. The problem being is they don't feel like they've got a problem. They're behaving like that because of you or because of somebody else. And that makes it really, really challenging. And in some respects, it's incredibly sad that they're so deeply wounded that their protective parts become their sense of self and we can't get beyond that. When we talk about red flags of these folks, I'm feeling so much compassion towards younger you,

you know, younger everyone. If you are listening to this and you have found yourself in a position to recognize yourself as having been in a relationship with a narcissist, congratulations, because you are now a thousand steps ahead of where you could be, which is wallowing and never knowing. Or thinking that it was your fault. Right. Right. I mean, by definition, you think you are doing something terribly wrong to

aggravate this wonderful person until you're able to see it with new eyes. So my question, Caroline, is do you think like we can talk about these danger flags of I can recognize in myself that I am codependent, so I am more susceptible to this. I can recognize in someone else that if they're trying to isolate me for my family and friends, that that is a red flag. But do you think we're capable of stopping it before it gets there? Or is that just like the parts of them that need to be narcissist?

There are parts of us that are being fed by that. Oh, damn. That we need to walk through it. Absolutely, you tend to find, again, codependence, which we could have as a collective term for somebody who has protective parts like people pleasing, perfectionism, anxiety, depression, addictions even,

because all of these are about distracting away from what a core wound is. A narcissist though is almost like the external protective part for a codependent. The narcissist soothes the codependent's core wounds of not feeling good enough and that's why then they become dependent on them because they feel better. And it doesn't mean the wound isn't there because at some point if we look at the narcissistic abuse cycle, initially it's great, we're producing the oxytocin, the dopamine,

the serotonin, it feels good. They're telling us all the things we want to hear. But then we will start to question something or we'll maybe push a boundary a bit and the narcissist will react. We will then go into a fight, flight, freeze, or fawn response. We produce more cortisol, adrenaline, or epinephrine.

And we actually become addicted to that cycle of hormone release then as well. And that's what we call a trauma bond. And it actually, often those who end up in narcissistic relationships, it's taking us also back to a time of what we believe is our version of love. Yes. You know, it takes us back to, I didn't feel good enough as a kid. So it felt normal for me to be in a relationship with someone to not feel good enough.

That was love, wasn't it? I didn't know any different. And I was literally physiologically addicted to the highs and the lows. And that's why I was addicted to struggle all of the time and feeling like my life. And I kept thinking, God, why is all this happening to me all of the time? Well, I was creating that because I needed that rush of hormones all of the time in my life, because that's what I was physiologically addicted to. Carolyn, we have had this ongoing conversation about how good, safe, stable love is boring as shit to people who grew up that way. And why we dispose of it so quickly for this sexy shiny object of drama and it's

really hard to settle into. When you were just talking, we did a conversation with Sarah Edmondson who was in a cult for a very long time and what she was talking about as how they were, she recruited folks for this too, how they were specifically trained to love bomb the shit out of everyone. Cults, yeah. At the beginning. She spent 12 years in it. She said the rest of her time in that cult was all trying to get back to that initial

high of that initial love bombing. And so is that what you're saying? That you have filled my wound from the beginning and then you're slowly taking it away from me. And so I have to chase and chase and chase after that initial filling. Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. And the dynamic between a narcissist and say a codependent is the codependent will think it's their fault.

But if the relationship isn't where it needs to be, it must be me. So I need to work harder. I need to do something about this. So that's where you'll have protector parts coming up. The problem being is many people that stay long term in these relationships will then start to go into a freeze response. And we live in what we call functional freeze then. So, you know, I was functioning, I was doing my children's pat lunches and I was taking them to school because I had to, but I was doing my children's pat lunches and I was taking them to school because I had to, but I was literally in a permanent freeze response. I was highly dissociated. I wasn't feeling

anything. I'd got all of these protector parts for me coming up to try and protect me. I was drinking more. I had a really strong emotional eating part to distract me in that moment away from my core wounds all of the time, which then I felt bad about myself. So you're just stuck in this cycle all of the time. And yeah, you're absolutely right. The narcissist will hook in. And I think it's really key to think about this because what you were saying there is almost like a conscious intention of doing that. You know, they were taught to love bomb at the start. Narcissists don't necessarily consciously know what they're doing because a lot of people will say to me, are they aware that they're doing all of this? Well, a narcissist's primary intention is to not feel their own wounds. That is what drives their

nervous system, just like for all of us not to feel what our core wounds are. Because of that, of course it's going to hurt somebody because we receive their projection of their pain in a way it must be my fault. So my interpretation of my ex-husband was, he's being like this because of me, I need to change, I need to do something about all of this. The power then in healing is not in changing the narcissist. That's why the term narcissist isn't for the narcissist. It's so that I then knew it's not my fault.

And that's why I talk a lot about narcissistic abuse and narcissistic trauma. We cannot change the abuse. The narcissist won't change. What we hold onto is trauma. Trauma doesn't have to be a life sentence. The narcissist highlighted in me with a great big spotlight, let's be honest, all of my core emotional wounds. So he shone a spotlight on that. Whether he was there or not, my wound was already there. But the fact of the dynamic of that is he shone a great big spotlight on that. And that actually woke me up to what was important. My own healing is still the same, but my wounds obviously always a work in progress. It's never a destination.

You just keep working on that too. So I don't react now as a trauma response, as a nervous system response to my ex-husband because I know and feel good enough. Yeah. I knew I was, but my body was telling a different story. You changed your whole attachment story. Yeah, that's right.

So is this, is in simplified terms, if we could have, we sometimes have genetic counseling where somebody looks at us and says, all right, according to your body, this is what you're at risk for, and so avoid this. So if we could have personality, how we were raised counseling

that was equivalent to genetic counseling, somebody could look at us and be like, okay, you were raised by a parent who made you fight for love, who you never really got enough from. You have a tendency towards codependency. So you're really gonna have to avoid people who might be narcissists.

And this is how, because if a person who's not codependent goes on a date with a person who's a narcissist, what happens in that date is the person hears some shit and they're like, I'm here looking for love and that doesn't feel like love, so I'm out of here. But the person who's codependent because they've been raised by a parent

who made them earn love sits at that date and thinks this feels like love. Yeah, you go right back to those early moments with your parent and you're like, oh, this is what that feels like. I remember this feeling. So is the only way to deal with it working on your own codependency?

It absolutely is. The power to heal is within ourselves. And really those of us who end up in narcissistic relationships, long-term that is, will have normally an anxious attachment style. We'll have a wound from childhood that has normally been created. And it can be from a narcissistic parent where we don't feel good enough.

Equally, also a codependent parent. My mom was highly codependent and I loved her to death. You know, literally just the most amazing woman. But as I was going through my own healing process, I realized my mom created the need in me to need her. So I remained very childlike for a long period of time, because for me, I was trying to get love from my dad, who was narcissistic. I got love from my mom by saying childlike, she'd created that need. So if I needed her, that gave her a sense of self-worth as well. So the dynamic then for me as an adult was I needed to

be needed myself because of that sort of generational cycle. So I then attracted someone into my life. And when I look back, it wasn't just partnerships, it was friendships as well. You know, I started to look back and think, oh my God, I've been a narcissist, Maganot, all my life. Talk about that. I want wanna talk about people who have friends who are narcissists, what does that look like? And then let's talk about people who have parents for narcissists because is there a version of parallel daughters and parents?

It is, it's really difficult I think when it's a parent as well, because there's an element of they're your parent and you love them and they brought you up, but equally there still can be boundaries. I have a very boundaried relationship with my father now and I think at the end of the day we can only do what we can do and it has to come down to ourselves. When I think about my relationship with my dad for instance, I am doing the best I can as a daughter,

so I can look in the mirror and think I'm doing the best I can as a daughter. Does it mean I don't have a relationship with my dad that I would love to have? I'd love to have a great relationship with him, but he's not capable of that to have that level of relationship I would love to have. So we have the best relationship we can, but with boundaries for myself as well. And also with friendships too, I talk about it being a friend's cleanse. You know, as you start to realize some of your friends as we get older, you know, my friendship grew as you go along. But I realized one in particular when I split up from my ex-husband, I realized she latched on to me and she was going around telling everybody, oh, I'm really helping Caroline through all of this. You know, she couldn't get through it without me. So of course they were all saying to her,

you're such a good friend, which of course gives her the supply. And I started to see this and think, wow, I have been surrounded by narcissists and not even realize, no wonder I'm on my knees and I'm exhausted because I'm giving everything to everybody else all of the time. And I've really had to work hard to bring it back to myself.

And it's not easy because I love helping people. I naturally like doing things like this. And I've had to really understand the boundaries around all of this and no is a full sentence. I don't need to write an essay to somebody if I can't do something and justify it. So you call it a supply. So a narcissist friend, they're like a, I mean, for lack of a better word, it's like a leech.

It's like a something that needs this thing. I want you to actually tell us what is a narcissistic friend because I can understand it easier in a relationship. But with a friendship, can you give me some characteristic traits that can help me understand? So some of the things would be if you're in a friendship with a narcissist, you'll start to say to yourself, you feel like you're, you're giving everything in the relationship and not getting something back. We also need to check in because really as friends, we shouldn't give to receive something either, you know, but there's an element of where you feel like all of the time you are giving in this relationship almost to the point of exhaustion and you're not getting anything back.

They'll also, again, start to gossip a lot. So I call it a gossiping part. They'll start to talk about other people, try and separate people in the friendship groups as well, trying to isolate people. And again, what narcissists are looking for, and that includes narcissistic friends, is they want to literally be

like the top of the Christmas tree. They want to be the one that you are focusing on the most and they will talk about other people. And let me tell you, if people are talking about other people to you, they're going to be talking about you to other people as well. 100%. 100%. You know, however they might say, you know, don't say anything or this, you know, so it's all Fiona. We've all been there. I mean, that's a bonding too. That is bonding. That is a bonding too. It's like, you trust me so much that you're gonna tell me this thing.

Now we share this little secret thing, even though that person is sharing it with everybody. Absolutely. And again, that feels good to a co-dependent because you think, oh, I'm special. She's been like this with me and everything. So again, you think, great, I've got an amazing friend. We've got this amazing bond.

I trust her. You know, some of the things with one of my friends was, you know, we have got children similar ages. And I asked her to look after my children after school one day because I had my clinic for the day, but I was paying her for that. So I set up, I would pay you for this. Yeah, I looked after her children probably five times as much in the week. Didn't have, didn't take any money. It was fine. But I wanted that obviously because I'd got my clinic. And then when I was going through kind of at the start of my healing process, my therapist said, you need to stop doing anything for anybody else. You know, you putting the wash in the washing machine is good enough. And I was

like, okay. So I remember saying to my friend, I'm really sorry, I'm not going to be able to look after the kids, you know, for a period of time. And of course the reaction was, and we've all know, Oh yeah, that's okay then. Okay. Yeah. And you're kind of like, obviously on edge. And of course I'd be like, well, I'm really sorry. I'm sure it won't last me very long. And I'm really sorry about this, but this is what my therapist, so again, an over explaining part. Over explaining. Absolutely. So people who are anxiously attached are anxiously avoidant, people less likely to get attached to narcissists.

So anxious potentially, yes. There's no one size fits all, so to speak. You tend to find with pure anxious attachment, they need to be close to somebody because they're looking externally for someone else to show them that they are worthy because they've not been shown that as a child. If we think about it developmentally, they haven't gone through the process of somebody making them know that just for breathing, just for being themselves, you are good enough. There's the anxious attachment. Do you think you're anxiously? No, I think I'm avoidant.

That's what I meant. I went avoidant. So I was definitely anxious, attachment when I was in the relationship. Then when I came out and I started my healing process, oh boy, did I go avoidant. Of course I did. Sure as shit you did. Sure as shit you did. You'd be crazy not to be avoidant for a while.

Absolutely. The barriers were off. It's like, yeah, you're not getting near me. Thank you very much. Absolutely not. But I still did for a while. I went on dating websites after a couple of years and I still was attracting some narcissists into my life. I ended up in a six-month relationship with WOD because I was out there dating when I should have been dating myself initially and really working on myself for.

But that was when again, when I thought just time and talking would actually help me heal. I didn't realize then, and that's why I've totally retrained. I needed to work in the body and that's for hence like somatic experiencing and IFS and brain spotting and EMDR. I needed to work in my body at a nervous system level to truly heal and keep on working towards that as well. What is brain spotting? So we all kind of have heard of EMDR, so where we use the eye movement. So brain spotting was actually founded by a guy who used to teach EMDR and he was working

with this eye skater this one time and he was doing his eye movements and he noticed at one point her eyelids flickered a bit so he just kind of held the spot. So brain spotting is eye position and it's almost like, because our eyes go all the way back to our brain stem. So we use eye position then where we naturally let the body process the trauma and integrate that as well. It's super powerful.

You know, EMDR, we tend to get people to think of certain images and it can be quite exposure-like and it can be quite dysregulating. Whereas brain spotting doesn't do that. It just allows the body to hold space to actually heal at a deep level. And it's amazing. I love it. And that I use that in combination with like somatic experiencing and IFS and just by parts map people so we know, you know, this isn't you. This is a part of you.

That in itself is really non-shaming. It's non pathologizing, even though we can label people as narcissists. It's not like narcissistic personality disorder. There's still an element of humanity and compassion behind all of that as well. You just said that after you got out of this and you're healing and you ended up in a six-month relationship with someone who was a narcissist, that resonated with me right after my divorce, which was very horrendous, I found somebody who looked same profession, same everything as that person. And there was something in me that needed to go back

in with this new person who was a mirror of the old person and like make it different. Like I get that person attached to me and then I break up with them. person and like make it different. Be different. Like I get that person attached to me and then I break up with them. Is there something there with that? Definitely. Okay.

As human beings, we naturally want to heal. We're always looking for these corrective experiences, corrective attachment experiences to heal those core wounds, which is why we tend to keep going back to those relationships as opportunities to actually heal from them. Often that may be never, and sometimes obviously that can happen as well. And also it's the trauma bond. You come out of a narcissistic relationship and let's say they found supplies somewhere else for instance, you're still needing the fix of the

kind of serotonin, the dopamine, the cortisol, the adrenaline. So you naturally will gravitate then to relationships to feel the serotonin, the dopamine. That's why a lot of people, like you say, you know, I could have put the most amazing person in front of people when they split up from a narcissist. And like you say, nah, not staying in that relationship. It is boring. It doesn't serve me.

I don't like that. Where's the toxic person out there? That's who I want to be in a relationship with. The brain likes what's familiar and that feels familiar because you're still alive. You're still in the relationship. And this is how our nervous system works. It doesn't mean we're not in pain. It just means our nervous system thinks we're in less pain than something else.

So that's why we keep on. That's why we keep on. That's why, you know, when we talk about things like even actual physical pain, so many people end up with autoimmune disorders, for instance. And one of the things that actually attracted me to IFS at the start was because it's an evidence-based parts therapy, they done a research study on rheumatoid arthritis, which is my mum had rheumatoid arthritis, but they looked at it as a protector part.

And that made so much sense to me. So my mom had a lot of childhood trauma, then obviously married my father and pain for my mom, whilst obviously it was painful because she'd got rheumatoid arthritis, to her nervous system, it was still less painful than sitting and feeling like an eight-year-old little girl who wasn't good enough. So both were painful, both painful, but actually the nervous system's like, that little girl feeling like that, that is the pain we don't wanna go to. Caroline, oh my God.

So actually the rheumatoid arthritis for my mom was like a savior for her. She didn't like it and it was painful, you know? And for me, that was like, whoa, wow. We're amazing as human beings. Yes, we are. Our body is always working for us, regardless of how we're showing up. Just stop there for a second because I want to hold the beat for when people trigger warning,

when people cannot understand, addiction. It's because there is a protector part who says, this thing will distract me from pain that is even worse. Okay. Let me give you an example. When I split up from my ex-husband, I used to feel such shame about it. So one of my protector parts was self-harm. So I used to literally gouge out the tops of my legs. I felt incredible shame about it.

I didn't tell anybody about it. But now I know that was my nervous system going, whoa, Caroline, you are feeling like a seven year old little girl, not good enough. That is painful. So focus on that. It is painful, but it's still less painful than that. Thank you for that.

It's really important. It is a beautiful reframe to think of. It is. I love it. When I went into recovery recently, my dear friend Liz wrote to me and said, thank God for everything that you've done to protect yourself until now. And thank God that now you don't need it. No shame for those things.

Those are survival strategies. Those are survival strategies. I think that a lot of our pod squad who's listening is probably thinking one of two things. Am I a narcissist or am I with a narcissist? Like that's what probably is going on in everybody's mind. I know I'm doing it this whole conversation. I'm like so scared. Do I have three or two of the nine?

Okay. I thought you were wondering if you were with a narcissist. No. Is this like a couple's therapy session now? Yes. Exactly. Exactly. We're going to have you take the quiz after. That was the result. Exactly.

I'll just send in. That's what I'm curious about. Our slippy idioms. It's a good question, yes. How do I either self-diagnose some of these traits? Because even if I don't have more than five, if I have one, I want to figure out what those childhood wounds

that I'm trying to cover up are so that I can heal. How can we figure this out if we have it or if our partners have it or if our friends have it? It's a really great question. And the simple answer is, if you are even asking yourself if you are a narcissist, you are not a narcissist. Because no narcissist is ever gonna go, I wonder if I'm a narcissist. Yeah. Because no narcissist is ever going to go,

I wonder if I'm a narcissist. I wonder if I am. I really wonder if I am a narcissist. They're just not going to do that ever. Okay. The other thing is a narcissist will never take any ownership or responsibility. And again, if we're looking at it, say through an IFS lens, we can have similar protector parts with some things as well.

I could have addiction or anger or even control as a protector part, but I can get past those and recognize if I hurt somebody, I don't want to do that. I'm really sorry and I'll take ownership and responsibility. A narcissist will never ever take ownership or responsibility of any of their behavior whatsoever. And I think that's a really key thing to remember. Yes. And the other thing, when we talk about narcissists and co-dependence,

when you're in a relationship with a narcissist, and many people will start to almost behave in ways that they can't imagine they would ever behave in, we have something in our brain called mirror neurons. And those who end up in relationships with narcissists already have more mirror neurons than the normal person, because most are also empaths when they're in relationships with a narcissist too, and there's a lot of science around this. And because we have more mirror neurons, we end up mirroring the narcissist's behavior, because it's like, well, if I mirror their behavior, surely then that must be okay behavior, and they'll diminish the abuse that they are using against us.

I have lots of people who come to me, both my parents were narcissists, both of them were and I'm like, okay, let's explore all of this. And very often the one they thought was the narcissist when we dive deeper actually sometimes isn't. They are just the codependent mirroring the narcissist to stay safe in the relationship. Whoa. I wanna ask you kind of a big question that if, if a partnership, a relationship between a codependent and a narcissist is really, as you say,

two people just with sucky things on each other, getting their supply met. Tell me in a short sentence, what does the narcissist need that they're getting from the other person? What are they sucking on? What's their supply? They need other people to make them feel like a worthy individual. So they are attracted, obviously, to people pleases because the protector part of a codependent will be say people pleasing. So they will give, give, give. The narcissist way of soothing their wounds is take, take, take.

So it's a match made in heaven for them. And then what is the codependent need from the narcissist? Because they're both sucking each other dry. They are, absolutely. So the codependent needs the other person to behave in a certain way so they can almost have a calmer nervous system knowing, I am good enough. I am worthy. I do matter. I am lovable

because they're behaving like I am. Okay. So both people are trying to get their worthiness from the other person directly. What is love then? Because we all want to feel worthy. And now I'm just thinking is love getting high on your own supply? What is the difference between two people next to each other who love each other and two people who are just feeding each other's wounds? Yeah, I think it all starts with ourselves. At the end of the day, we need to learn to love ourselves and know that just for being ourself, we are good enough. we are worthy, and not needing somebody else to show us that. You could be in a room of a hundred narcissists and feel unloved.

That doesn't mean you're unlovable. It just means you're not loved in that moment. So we need to start to think about that as codependence and wanting them to have a healthy relationship. Really, the term we should look at is interdependency, where we can go off and do our own thing and it's okay and we support each other, but we also have common ground together and we can come together and support each other. And really healthy love to me is how well you manage conflict. In that moment when you have something you disagree about, because you're never going to agree on everything, it's how do you manage that?

Do you immediately have a protector part of your own coming up and you get defensive, you go offline in your brain, then the other one goes offline and a protector part comes up as well? That's when it can start to become more challenging. With my husband, for instance, we will have conflict now and we're married now and we will have conflict. And obviously I've done a lot of work, he's done less work, but it means I'm very aware

when he has a protective part, say coming up with like anger or something, then I don't take that personally. I just know something's going on in his system so I can stay calm in myself. And in that moment, I know how to speak to him to help calm his nervous system as well. This is so beautiful because what you've just described and Glennon, when you're talking

about what love is and to Abby's point about how can we all know that we're not with narcissists or are narcissists. It's like love to me is being responsible for myself in partnership with someone else who is responsible for themselves. I mean, I can be a complete asshole in my relationship and often... Oh, me too. But I am, but I can own that. I'm like, I am. Yes, I did that thing and I'm working on that thing and that thing is really hard for me

and I'm probably not going to get it right for another 10 years. And my partner can know what they do that is not correct and know where we struggle. But I feel like when you're going back to the other person, when you're not responsible for yourself, when you say there's something empty in me, there's a problem in my life and you are looking to the other person as the reason that's a problem or an answer to that problem. And never knowing that you're responsible for yourself, that's when you get in all this mess, right? Because what you've just said is the narcissist

can never be held responsible for anything. Everything is deflection. Everything is someone else's fault. Everything is because you did it or the world did it to me and nothing is their own. Absolutely. Remember, a narcissist is totally blended with their protector parts. They have a false sense of self.

It's protector parts. If you have a part-to-part relationship with somebody, so they're in their protector parts and you are, it's never going to be a healthy relationship. What you want is ideally a self-to-self relationship, but also the recognition. When I use this type of language around my husband, you know, because let's say he said something and I feel like he's not listened to me or something, I can feel an anger part coming up. Now, my anger part represents when I feel unheard. It'll come up. I've got a Wonder Woman doll that I use as an external representation

of my anger part because I used to feel a lot of shame about getting really angry. But my anger part comes up when it's almost like, hey, Caroline, I know you're feeling unheard right now. I'll come up for you and protect you from feeling that core pain. But I will say parts language to my husband then and say, okay, I've got a real anger part coming up now because like the little Caroline is feeling really unheard right now and immediately because I'm not saying Stop saying that I'm so angry at you

Immediately he starts to calm down as well because we see a totally different dynamic in the relationship So and this is beautiful with children. You are not a bad child that part of you that was showing up right there I love you, but that part of you. Yeah, let's work on that If you had to ask that part of you that was showing up right then, I love you, but that part of you, yeah, let's work on that. If you had to ask that part of you showing up right now, why are you there? It immediately externalizes bad behavior, as such, say from a child or an adult, and it's not you. You are amazing.

That part of you is there for a reason. So we are looking beyond just immediate present behavior. Caroline, I'm just picturing families, couples, instead of just trying to talk to each other on couches, we should all be in those little like fake stages that families have, you know, those fake auditory, cardboard puppet shows. We should all just be communicating through puppet shows. Every time there's a conflict, just hold up your Wonder Woman, hold up your crying in the corner self.

Honestly, it would revolutionize it because all of a sudden you would know if you understand, you would know if someone has a part of them, it's because their little person is hurting and you want to help, you want to understand. Narcissists don't do that. Most people would have compassion and empathy around that as well. So it becomes a completely different dynamic in relationships. Nobody's a bad person. These are just parts showing up to try and distract their inner system from feeling pain. They can be destructive, but they have a positive intention for all of us, including narcissists. It's a beautiful thing. So the gist is the narcissist is perhaps not a bad person either, but they have a part that has swallowed them up,

like the imbalmable snowman. And that part is never going to, as far as your research has gone, is never going to identify itself as a part. That is the whole thing. Yeah, they can't, correct. They don't recognize themselves. They become so blended with those parts.

That becomes who they are. It's almost too dangerous to go within and look at the pain of those parts, that inner child. It's too painful to go there. That's why when I think of my ex-husband and the same for any of the listeners who think, you often see the narcissist will go off and it looks like they're really happy now,

so it must've been me. They're in a great relationship now. Yes, of course. Of course. It's just in that moment, somebody else is giving them supply, but they're never truly happy because their system is constantly working so hard not to feel what their core pain is inside. Narcissists are also codependent.

They have a lack of self-worth. It just is that protective parts of a lot more proactive and abusive that show up for them to minimize their wound. So everyone here, Caroline, when she says just because they have the parts and they're not bad, they are not fit to be in a relationship. That's right. That doesn't mean- This is the explanation, not the excuse. Yes, this doesn't mean work harder so you can understand their parts.

This means run like the every... Right. And Caroline, to you, thank you. I just feel like so many women are scared to talk about their stuff because the world. Thank you. Your courage and honesty and openness is... Well, it's world changing because it's helping us understand the shit we're in personally. And you are a good example of post-traumatic

stress growth. Growth. Post-traumatic growth. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for you. Yeah. Move from the post-traumatic stress. Yeah. And bringing all the data and the science to something that has previously felt like

it's not even a reality, like it's something that we're just existing in. I feel like bringing that to this conversation is so empowering and de-shaming. It is like the scientific equivalent of like, you're not crazy. And it's really valuable and I have learned a lot. And thank you for spending this day with us. I know knowing that it's a special day for you having lost your mom on this day. Just we're grateful to be with you today.

Thank you. It's been my pleasure. Thank you. All right, Pod Squad, keep your eyes peeled. Okay. Catch you next time. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign

in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.