We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How to Stop Pleasing and Start Living

Episode Date: September 26, 2024

349. How to Stop Pleasing and Start Living Amanda and Glennon answer your questions about friendship, mental health, people pleasing and the difference between boundaries and control.  Discover:  -Why if you’re a person who “goes with the flow” you might want to reconsider; -What to do when you feel the loss of a friend getting into a new relationship; -The truth about married men who refuse to socialize with women who are not their wife; and  -The healing power of getting a mental health diagnosis later in life. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things Today. Today is a special- That sounded like We Can Do Hard Things Today, which actually might be a more accurate description. We're not sure about tomorrow. We Can Do Hard things today, exclusively. Oh, listen. I have been thinking lately about why the one day at a time slogan is so important to people in the program, obviously.

Sobriety is one day at a time. And I used to only think of it as, of course, because life is so hard that I can't think about not drinking or not. I can't think about my whole life. I can only think of this one 24-hour period, and that will make me less insane. And I can just keep doing that one day at a time. But I think that one of the reasons also

is because you get to start a fresh slate with every. The concept of one day at a time is that you're not bringing every, you're not the history of every relationship, the past of everything, the future fear. It's like recently someone brought up the concept of, you know, I used to be a teacher and you used to have these charts of cards for behavior and it was like everybody would start on green every day.

And then maybe like, if you had some challenges, you would be on yellow. But every morning, green. Green cards for everybody every single morning, no matter what. And that is like a super important concept of one day at a time, too, that if you live that way, you're promising yourself, today I

will deal with the relationships that I have today and not bring all of our past history to every single situation. Like seeing everybody with a beginner's mind is kind of a cool way to live. I really like that. I really like that. I also like the concept of... so I was listening to a speech that Federer was giving to a graduating class and he said, he's that tennis player, one of the best ever. He was saying to them, so I have won 80% of all of my matches, which is a very, very high number.

So he's one of the top players in the entire universe, 80% win. He said I've only won 54% of the points. So that's fascinating, right? Because it's like, you don't, I feel like we think in order to be like nailing it, we have to be nailing 80% of every day or we have to, but the best in the world in order to get to 80% wins only wins four more percent than the next person of points.

And he said, the reason why I have been so good is because every point is just a point. Like if I absolutely kill it and it's gonna be on ESPN highlights and it's unbelievable, that's still just a point. If I come up and the other guy just like smokes me and I look ridiculous, that's just a point. If I come up and the other guy just like smokes me and I look ridiculous, that's just a point. And every one of them is equal

and all I need is one more than the other guy. And then I get my win. It doesn't matter. It's just one at a time. And the only way that you can have clarity to be focused in on the next point is if you completely let go of the last one, whether it was amazing or terrible. And I just think that's interesting. Like when we think about,

I think we berate ourselves for being like, I was only 51% decent today. Why, why isn't that a win? That's a win. 51% federal level or whatever. Exactly. Yeah. It's a hero. A hero. Good stuff. So you see my one day at a time and you raise it. No, one point at a time. Just one moment at a time. One point at a time. And it's always a new tally every time. That's right. That point is over. We're not thinking about that anymore. New day. We're all on green again.

Well, PS, that's why in my classroom, the system never worked because I always felt like we should start over every couple hours. It felt so mean. Some kid makes a mistake at 8 AM. They have to look at the yellow card at 2 PM. No, thank you. We contain multitudes.

Everyone knows that Johnny's always on orange. I know, it's awful actually. It's awful, everybody starts over every five minutes. All right. Okay, let's hear from some pod squatters. This makes me so happy when we hear their beautiful questions in voicemail. So sister, you and I will do our best without our Abby.

She's on the road. It's going to be terrible. I know. I know. I'll try to think of what I think she would say and then I'll try to say this things too. Here is Jennifer. Hi, Lennon and Abby. My name is Jennifer.

I'm a longtime listener. I love your podcast. I just was seeking some advice about a situation that I've recently been in. I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been in a situation where I've been long time listener. I love your podcast. I just was seeking some advice about a situation that I've recently been in. One of my friends recently got into a relationship and has kind of stopped spending time with his friends. I feel like every single

time I try to plan something with him, he bails or he comes up with these fake excuses. When in reality, I know he's just spending time with his new girlfriend. And I'm wondering how you think I should approach the situation because I feel like this is super common with people. They get into relationships and then they drop all their friends and then they break up with that person and then they have no friends anymore because they dropped all their friends. But I care about this person and I don't want to lose my friendship with them. So any advice on what I should do? Thank you.

Do you have any initial responses, Amanda? I do. Do you want me to go first? I do have initial responses. Can't wait. I feel like Jennifer's feelings are hurt. Yeah. I feel like she has a sad

because she wants to hang out with her friend and her friend is in this new relationship and she feels sad and mad about it. She wants to hang out with her friend. And to that, I say, Jennifer, I understand that. And that sounds like it hurts a lot. And in a perfect world, this wouldn't be happening. And also when you first start in a perfect world this wouldn't be happening. And also when you first start in a relationship

and you fall in love, you are obscenely selfish and self-absorbed in that love. And as personal as it feels to you, Jennifer, it is not personal to you. And when you say you care about them and you don't want to lose the friendship with them, I think you won't lose the friendship with them if you remain a friend to them

when they come out of their selfish period. Because they will, whether the selfish period ends when they are broken up or whether the selfish period ends when they have like gone through their initial, we are absolutely bonkers in love, they will come back. And that's the natural order of things. And if you love them, you will still be there to be their friend.

And you can tell them that it hurts your feelings then. They will be in a position to hear it because they will no longer be in their crazy place. It sounds like a little bit like you might want to give them what they deserve and what they deserve is to maybe have a big F you that they dropped you and they had their girlfriend. So if you want to give them what they deserve on the other end of this, you can, but like you won't have a friendship. You will have to give them the grace of understanding that this is what happens and you get loony when you

first fall in love. Yeah. I feel like it's just, it's resisting this whole concept of like, friends should be this certain way. And if you fall in love, you should still spend as much time with us as you do with your new person. It's actually just a bunch of made up shoulds. I mean, actually, so here's one thing that happened recently

is that I have a kid who's in love, and I am so happy about it, and it's wonderful. And then also I started to feel like Jennifer. Oh. And I am almost 50. You love this person, you don't want to lose them? I was like, but what about when we spend time? And so what I did was I told myself

that I was only worried about this child's individuality and like, person. Yes, they are meshing with this person and it's not healthy for them. It has nothing to do with me wanting to mesh with them again. Right, and also just be clear that this relationship is utterly beautiful.

Not a red flag to be found, okay? But I presented it as this concern for maintaining your individual self, whatever. I said maybe you should, you should. And whenever you're saying to someone else you should, you're just fucked. It's just, that's the red flag right there, right? But anyway, I was saying you should spend more time here.

You should spend more time alone with yourself, by which I meant with me. Right. OK. And the child looked at me and said, I think I'm hearing what you're saying, but I want to be with them. I want to spend my time with them.

Now pause. Oh, okay. So you are actually very happy right now. You are so excited about this best person that you want to be with them. I only want to spend time with people who want to spend time with me. I do not want to present a case to a child or a friend or anybody that presents a case that shows that they should spend more time with me

so that I don't know, Best case scenario, they rearrange their life so they're spending less time with the person they want to and more time with me, and then they're annoyed that they're spending time with me because they want to be with the other person. So if I'm Jennifer, I'm thinking, okay, I'm lonely right now and sad. That is my problem.

That is not my friend's problem. My friend is not lonely and sad. That is my problem. That is not my friend's problem. My friend is not lonely and sad. My friend is happy as shit. I might have to figure out how to meet that need for myself in a different way during this time. And if I do that and find some connection and joy and whatever in a different place, I might just be the kind of person

that that friend wants to hang out with again. Not out of duty or some fake sense of justice, but like desire. Truly, at the end of the day, relationships only work with desire. Because you want to be with the person. And nobody wants to be with a person who is shaming them into hanging out with them.

Yes, and I also get that the hurt that happens when it's like, wait, so I was good enough and fun enough and desirable enough to want to hang out with me all the time until this girlfriend came along and now I'm not, I get that that's like feels like a rejection and it sort of is. So that's a real pain of a thing. So I'm not trying to minimize that

and or feel like Jennifer, you shouldn't feel like a little bit shitty about this. That is very. Sure. And especially people who go over this over and over where they're like, oh, I have a friend until my friend gets a partner and then I don't have a friend anymore. And now I have a friend until my friend gets a partner.

You know, it, it sucks. Yeah. But it's also that there's the element of we know, we know what happens with people when they fall in love. Their brains are different. It's like you're on drugs. You're actually, your brain is lit up different. You're in a different place.

So there is just sort of the acknowledgement of, I guess I just feel bad for everyone if everyone is gonna be sad and hurt again and again every time their friend ditches them for a romantic love because that's never going to stop happening. That's what happens to people's brains is they lose their minds. I remember it like it's almost like you just have to be like, oh, like make up a word for it and know that if you are going to have good friends over long periods of time,

you are going to lose them sometimes to this romantic thing, unless they are so highly evolved that they have found a way to maintain sanity in an insane time. And then also, the way that they are friends during that time is that they don't hang out with you. The way that you are a friend to them during that time is you give them grace and don't shame them for not hanging out with you. And that doesn't mean you're not friends.

It means there are friends going through this cycle that happens inevitably. And then the other side of it, you will be friends. You will be friends who hang out. Now you're friends who aren't going to hang out very much. Yeah. Just pretend they have the flu or something. Like if they had the flu, you would not be like, and Johnny never calls me back. He gets the flu and then he's not blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Just, it's the same. Okay, so Jennifer, I hope we've solved that for you. MUSIC I'm Sally Holm with the podcast History This Week. In each episode, we serve as your eyes and ears into history's biggest events. Major elections, world wars, scientific breakthroughs. But we also bring you into the smaller, behind-the-scenes stories. The unsung heroes, secret meetings, even personal grudges that changed the course of history. Listen to and follow History This Week, an Odyssey podcast in partnership with the History

Channel, available now for free on the Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. Let's hear from Ryan. Hi, it's me, Ryan. I love your show so much and I've never called in before, but your episode with Allegra Castans just blew my mind. I've been listening to you guys since day one and I just wanted to thank you for that episode because I am soon to be 47 years old. I think you are also this age, Glennon, and I have always known I was a

little OCD, but like Allegra mentions, I use it as an adjective. And I took a quiz during your podcast, during your episode and realized I am very high OCD. And I'm like, my heart's racing because it's just amazing to me that I could have lived 46 years and never taken the time to talk to my therapist about this. So I am going to do that when I see her next. And my question to you is, is it normal for people to be in their late 40s before they even realize that they do have this mental health disorder? So thank you so much.

And keep doing what you're doing. You're saving lives. I love her, and I love Allegra Castens. And this caller is talking about episode 306, if you haven't listened to that, it is about the truth about what it is like to be someone with OCD and it was really powerful, very powerful episode. I think it is normal, it's typical. It shouldn't be. But I think it

is typical that especially women don't learn of their diagnoses until a lot later. In fact, on average for OCD specifically, because it's such a shame-laden, misunderstood disease, the average person goes between 14 and 17 years before they get a diagnosis. So it is very typical. I do feel like there is just so many more late-stage diagnoses going on with women right now of everything of autism and ADHD and OCD and so much.

I mean do you feel like you're hearing about that a lot just anecdotally and... Yeah. I mean I don't, I think we forget how recent, we didn't even, the word neurodivergent is now on the tip of all of our lips, thank God. We weren't even saying it six years ago in the general population. Like the awareness that people like Allegra, and so many people we've had on this pod are bringing to the culture and then the magic of hearing people's stories and then going, oh my God, wait, I thought that sounds like me.

And then taking that to professionals and figuring out that, you know, I hear again and again, and I know this on a completely different level just with queerness, is like it's not just the freedom that comes from like, oh, I thought I was damaged. I'm this. Since these are all very different than damage. This is not damage.

It's a different way of being. But then you also, so there's the freedom and relief of that. But then there's the community. Then you find all the other people. And that is an equal gift. But I think also we have the double bind of the awareness has been so low. But also every study that's ever done

is the male presentation of whatever that thing is. So women finding out that they have these experiences come so much later because we have to figure it out from behind and inside and whatever because the studies are never done on women. Yeah, the symptoms of autism and of ADHD look very different for girls and boys and women and men. They were typically looking for the symptoms, the characteristics that they thought were just the characteristics, and then to find out, no, those are the way

they present in boys and men. And so you didn't find them over here because you were looking for the wrong thing. So 80% of women with autism are misdiagnosed. That is an alarmingly high number. And so they're misdiagnosed with other various disorders and have to keep going through the process, keep going through the process till they find it. It's also women with ADHD. Most women with ADHD do not get

diagnosed until their late 30s or early 40s. That's most. That is wild. You've gone through, presumably, all of your educational experiences. You've gone through, presumably, all of your educational experiences. You've gone through your formative, trying to figure out who you are, what you're capable of, what's possible for you, all during a time where you had no resources or understanding of how to cope, just kind of felt like there was something wrong with you.

And I'm sure that you didn't just feel that because every institution you were in only rewards the behavior of neurotypical people and the ability to sit and to stare and to not move and to acclimate and to concentrate for so, like you probably over time have a lot of shame to undo because you were probably taught that you were wrong. Right. Which is a slice of insanity.

Like you were just not built for the structures that you were put inside of. And also just discovering people discover so many gifts that they have to offer the world with their particular brand of brain. But no, it's not unusual, it's happening. Thank God. Yeah, it really is. I mean, the blessing of it is of all this awareness and they think a lot of it has to do with, you know,

the internet stuff, people telling their stories, saying this is how it looks for me. Oh, you won't find this in a medical journal because it hasn't been studied yet, and people being able to see themselves in those stories. So actually, over the last 12 years, the ADHD diagnoses in women between 30 and 50 have doubled. So it is happening now. people are finding this out.

It is a new wave of women being able to understand the way their brains and bodies work. And in addition to like on the good news is on the whole, they when they've looked at what happens with the late diagnosis, the overwhelming feeling is that people feel better about themselves and that their quality of life improved on knowing themselves and understanding their experiences, you know, retroactively in light of this. And there's a major relief in community.

And also there's a major relief in community. And also there's a grief. Of course. Because you're looking back at your whole life thinking if I had known this, if I had had the resources, if I had had the accommodations I needed, if all of that, like that's a lot to grieve too. But the good news is even in spite of that grief, if you think this might be part of your life,

people who get a diagnosis say that their quality of life improved and they feel better about themselves. So there seems to be something it unlocks for people in there that makes their lives better. Yeah, that makes sense. And it's very, it makes you kind of appreciate the shithole internet. It's like, that is one really good thing. Yeah, that's one really good thing that like information is not as siloed that you can see yourself in all of people.

The democratization of storytelling allows people to find themselves in places that they never could have before. And you know, it's funny that there's always the, oh god, now everybody's gay now. Oh, now everybody's non-binary. Now everybody has ADHD. That is a hilarious back pushing of this thing. And it's interesting to think that way. I will say that.

It is also just a reminder that neurodivergence nor queerness is contagious. But information and freedom is contagious. But information and freedom is contagious. So to now raise people in a culture where we have all of this information and people can find themselves early, and then express what they are early is so beautiful. It will just make people live with less suffering earlier on. And it's

not that everyone's gay now. It's not that it's people have always been gay. It's just that people have not always heard themselves and been able to express who they are as early. But yay! And thank God for Allegra. Oh my God, she's amazing. Okay, let's hear from Jess. My name is Jess. I have something that I wanted to ask about that I have been noticing in some of my friends' relationships and marriages and I just am really bothered by it and I wanted your take. Something that I've realized is that a spouse or a partner will have a boundary, I guess you can call it, with their counterpart and be that they can't hang out alone with someone of the opposite sex in a heterosexual relationship. So for example, I have friends whose husbands or wives would be uncomfortable with their

spouse being alone with someone of the opposite sex or hanging out with them, even with kids, even at coffee, even driving in the car somewhere. And this just really bothers me and I think that it seems like it's more common than people act like it is. is and to me it feels like a piece of control and the urge to control people but I'm just curious if my intuition is right that this is really toxic behavior. Anyway, that's all. Thank you. Okay, I would like to suggest that we discuss Jess's question, but I don't want to discuss it in terms of whether it's good or bad. I feel like judging everyone's relationships like that,

because I don't fucking know. Am I allowed to discuss it in terms of whether it's good or bad? Yes, you can. But before that, I do know a couple of things. I know that a boundary is not telling someone else what they can or cannot do. That is not a boundary, that is control.

A boundary is what I will do or not do, okay? What if your boundary is I will not have a wife who goes, who eats dinner with a man Then that is a person who if that wife wants to do that, then they should get divorced but what that man can't say is My boundary is for you not to do that. They can and they do but what I am saying is that from my studying of this situation, that when Jess says, is that control?

The answer is yes. If a person is saying, in order for me to be comfortable and safe, you have to do this thing, that is control. A boundary is, in order for me to be comfortable and safe, I'm going to do this thing. Secondly, I also want to say that I've had personal experience in this situation. I was in a high control group called the Evangelical Church for a long time. And we used to sit in the pews while the minister would say to us, your marriage is not safe.

You should never be in a room with a man alone, Glennon. You, Craig, should never be in a room alone with a woman. That was preached to us week after week after week. So that is a very real thing that is taught to people. I as a person who has created lots and lots of rules and controls Anorexia, religion, lots and lots of rules and controls,

anorexia, religion, all these things, to protect myself from myself. This is all from people who are scared shitless of themselves. Like that's the only reason to make all of these rules around other people is because you are scared shitless of yourself. That's why anorexia, I will protect myself from my own appetite. And these rules are, I will protect this institution

from my own appetite, I guess, desire, right? So this is the way people act when they don't trust themselves. I feel hesitant to judge it with inside relationships other than to say the way that I see it, but I will say that I find it abhorrent when, and should be illegal, when these ideas are transferred into professional arenas. So I am a man who is a boss. And oh, because of my piousness and my religion,

I will not take a meeting with this woman, which is very fucking convenient for patriarchy because then no woman has access to power. So when this idea transfers into outside of the little family unit, then we all have a problem that is not your right to control. So that's what I have to say.

Go ahead, Sissy Bear. Yes. So this is all from the so-called Billy Graham rule. Like this all stems from, became very popular when Billy Graham rule, like this all stems from, became very popular when Billy Graham said that he will never meet with a woman alone, who is not his wife, not even in an elevator, like will not be in any kind of alone situation

with a woman in order to quote, flee youthful lusts. Oh Jesus. And avoid appearances of compromise or suspicion. So Billy Graham says that this is his rule. Everyone like evangelicals like jump on the train and we're like, yes, good rule. Everyone adopt this role. That like Mike Pence as vice president also,

his rule was that he would not dine with a woman without his wife present. That obviously is like incredibly complicated when the most, when the studies showed that the most mutually advantageous negotiations occur over meals. When you have the vice president of the United States unable to reach a mutually beneficial negotiation with a woman, that is clearly a problem because a woman would not be...

Yeah and the fact that she's only seeing them as sexual beings. Well, that's the overriding. That's the overriding thing. Like if a woman is only a woman is only a woman. And let us be clear, like the rule comes inside of evangelical patriarchy. That's the origin of the rule. You can say all day long that it applies equally to men and women

because these women are also agreeing not to meet with men. The rule was called the Billy Graham rule because his rule was he would not meet with a woman. Why doesn't he meet with a woman? Because women are temptresses. There is only one woman who's virtuous, just like there's only one, you know, Mary. That is his wife. Everyone else is Eve.

Everyone else is tempting. Everyone else is dangerous, dangerous, exclusively sexual, wholly sexual. And as a corollary, women you can't meet with men, not because the women will have a sexual appetite, but because the men cannot be trusted around the women because they can't have any sense of responsibility for themselves when they're with a woman. And all bets are off. They have no internal sense of control.

So it's tricky because it's presented as this like respect for the spouse. It's bullshit. But when you scratch just a tiny bit deeper, it is not only as you said, no respect for self and self-control, but respect for a woman as having any kind of multi-dimensionality because if her sexual nature is so overriding that it makes everything else she is, you know, a businessist, a lobbyist, a anything under the sun, a, oh, a mentor, a mentee,

a anything. It means you cannot be anything else that would override what is your primary identity, which is a sexual tempstress of me. That's right. And it's super interesting to think about if it were really about protecting you from a deadly sin of lust. Okay, it's not.

It's about control and access to power and not meeting with women. But if it were really about that, then do you also not meet with powerful men to do business deals because that might tempt you into greed? If you're trying to protect yourself from all of these energies that might corrupt you, I can suggest a few more energies that the Bible suggests that you should protect yourself from. So you better, you know, avoid all of those temptations. But no, it's just sex so that we can just keep it to women.

I mean, just not to mention how, I mean, this is all easy to say, but like, how personally humiliating that must be. Like, I'm just trying to imagine I'm personally humiliating. That must be. Like I'm just trying to imagine if I have a working relationship with a man or a friendship or, and I feel like there's like a real mutual respect, a real connection in terms of whether it's professional

or whether it's over some kind of shared interest, not at all sexual in nature. And then he says to me, oh no, I can't ride the elevator with you or I can't go to that. I can't go to lunch to discuss that business thing with you because I have this rule with my partner. Suddenly it's like, you might as well be standing there like it's like totally naked and exposed. But I was never a sexual thing to you, but you just told me I am.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that means to everyone that's what I am? And by the way, this stuff just doesn't, it's, you know, why are the rates of like, no offense to porn, but porn and cheating and all of those is so unbelievably high in these high control groups. That's the irony of all of this. Like they're and all of those is so unbelievably high in these high control groups.

That's the irony of all of this. Like they're making all of these rules and then they so, it also trickles down into the culture in so many ways. Like if there were no Billy Graham rule, then maybe our kids wouldn't be at school with the girls wearing shirts that are tank tops getting sent to the principal's office.

Don't even. Because interrupting their education. Why? Because they're uncomfortable? Because, no, because their arms might tempt the boys in the classroom and might distract them from their education. So the girl's education is immediately interrupted and they're brought to the principal's office. And then, and this happens all the time. And also, Glennon, they are told sixth graders, seventh graders, eighth graders, my daughter's in fourth grade.

She's not allowed to wear tank tops. So they are telling fourth graders, fifth graders, sixth graders, which by the way, I've said, you can wear a tank top any day of the week you want. And I double to can dare them to call me and tell me. Oh, I kind of hope they do. I kind of hope they do. That'd be so fun.

Oh, it would be amazing. But what they're saying is you are sexual. Yes. You are a sexual creature above all. You are not a student that has equal footing in this. You are above everything else, a sexual creature that we have to protect ourselves from at fourth grade.

Yep. Yeah. It's interesting also because all of that comes from Christian puritanical shit. And then, and then since we have no separation of church and state in this country, that's all just a joke. It's just all permeates into those things. But when I have this conversation with, you know, evangelicals or Christian people, the vibe that Billy, that Billy Graham vibe, has so infiltrated the culture that everybody really thinks that way. It's like, no, the boys will be tempted and we can't let the boys be distracted

and go down a hard road so the girls have to do this thing. But when you go into the scripture, when you take away the culture and actually go to the meat of it, it's hilarious because Jesus is always like, OK, if your eye causes you to sin, then you should cut your eye out. So like, OK, if we're going to actually remove the Billy Gramm-ness of it and just go to the scripture of it, if Mary is sitting in class with a tank top

and Johnny, his eye just can't handle it. He's just full of lust and sin and about to just explode. Well, Jesus doesn't say then Mary should put on a cardigan. This is none of Mary's fucking business. Mary's trying to learn her spelling words. If Johnny has a fucking problem with Mary's arm, then Johnny should go to the principal's office

and get his eye scooped out. The line at the nurse's office is gonna be very, very long. Very long. But it's a personal problem. It is not Mary's problem. In any way, it has nothing to do with Mary. Deal with it, Johnny. Scoop out your eyes, cut out your arms, whatever it takes, I guess. It is not Mary's problem. In any way, it has nothing to do with Mary. Deal with it, Johnny. Scoop out your eyes, cut out your arms,

whatever it takes, I guess. But don't bother Mary. She's trying to learn her capitals. I mean, everyone do whatever the hell you're gonna do. I just feel really sad for those people. I'm like, that sucks, man. You have such a low estimation of yourself and your spouse that you've gotta like do that for real?

Aw. It's unfortunately. ["Sweet Home"] So we're going to hear from Alice. Hey guys, this is Alice here. Here's some irony. It's frustrating to be friends with people pleasers because they won't communicate what they want or need, which means it then falls on me to make all the decisions and it is tiresome.

Here's my question. How do I be a good partner or friend to recovering people pleasers? I know they have to do the work themselves, but is there anything I can do to help them on the way because frankly, this is exhausting. I'm with Alice, man. Under talked about phenomenon.

Thank you, Alice. Yes, agreed. Good job, Alice. Tricky agreed. Good job, Alice. Tricky one. And also, this is an important one to talk about, because as we all become more aware of the dangers of people pleasing, there's going to be a lot of us that are in people pleasing recovery.

So it's an important conversation to have. And it's also a little bit confusing, because if you're friends with a people pleaser, are you? Like, do you even know who that person is? They might just be trying to please you. They might not even like you because they have already indicated that they're just gonna go with the flow.

They don't like the Chinese food, but they're eating that. Maybe they also don't like you. You know how I started thinking about this recently is that I really, I have a couple people in my life who I feel like are, I don't know that people please or is a strong enough word. It's like a trauma response of survival that has to do with just morphing into whatever

the person in front of me or situation in front of me or unit needs and so it is. Are you talking about me right now? No, no, but that's hilarious. Okay. No, I'm not. I just like to know. It is a situation where there if there's a person in your life where you just can't grip

on. It's like there is no there there. And then it's just extremely hard to be in relation with that person, because what is that person? And then it's doubled. The confusion is doubled by the fact that these types of people are usually very, quote, nice. So you feel bad even being annoyed or being

unable to whatever, because they're so nice That it feels like you should think they're great But you don't even know who they it like you don't know what they stand for you don't know what they like you don't know what because they're always just a mirror of whatever's in front of them and I Don't think that's a simple situation. Like I don't think it's like a little quirky personality trait. I think it's a trauma response to people who in their families of origin just became, oh, I have to basically be a ghost to survive.

I have to be nothing. I have to be not solid. I have to be. And I think that's a very, very hard thing to unlearn. And I think if you, I don't know if you should continue relationships or whatever, but just even knowing to unlearn and I think if you, I don't know if you should continue relationships or whatever but just even knowing that that is a trauma response is helpful for compassion

and then I think of it in terms of, for me I feel like it's almost like trying to be friends with an addict and it is because those are people who get their shots because those are people who get their shots of dopamine or safety from the approval of other people's faces. So it's not that they... breaking people, please. It's not just like, oh, I have to learn how to disappoint other people. It's I have to learn how to live without this shot of dopamine I get every time I please another person. So it really is addiction recovery. It's like, how do I sit with myself without it's like recovering from hustle culture or any other thing where you're like, oh, but how do I get my worthiness or my shot of whatever?

It is very helpful for me to think of them as addicts. Wow, and that, what you're describing right now is kind of like if people pleasing was a spectrum, those are the most extreme versions of like, they're like vacant, I am empty and get filled up by the people around me and just sort of become them. I am like tofu.

I take on the flavor of whatever I am like swimming in and then there's like a spectrum of people pleasing too where on the other end, you can be someone who just really prides yourself on going with the flow, which is like, I think what Alice is talking about, like it's just fucking exhausting to also be around people who won't make a decision, because when you're going with the flow,

all you're doing is going with it. Like someone else is making the flow. And so going with the flow is a little bit like being a freeloader. You're free loading on the flow. Yes. So I have been guilty of this if it's like, where are we going for dinner? Where are we?

Oh, I don't care. I'm good with whatever. I'm good with whatever. But what that is basically asking is for someone else to decide and then to execute on it. Yep. So, so that does probably get super annoying if you're always like the one or one or one of the two people who always has to be the one to say like, no,

here's what we're doing. Okay. Is everyone okay with this? And so it's good to know that like, you should have to do a little bit of work when people say, what do you wanna do to come up with like, you don't have to dictate, but you could say like, you could come up with a couple ideas and say, have you happened to do this or this?

Like to help, to add a little bit to the situation because that feels like you're just waiting for someone else to do the work. I also think that I feel very comfortable being in relationship with people that I know take care of themselves and say what they want and say what they need. I just feel like in like my body,

a comfort and a settling, because I know that my job in that situation is just to take care of myself. Because they're gonna say what they want. If they're thirsty, they're gonna get something to drink. If they're don't wanna be here, they're gonna leave. If they, so I don't have to be like, tuned into whether they're happy or not because I know they're

handling themselves. Yep. And yeah, that means a lot to me too. I don't. The thing about people pleaser is just nobody can actually be like this. Like nobody's actually like this. It's just a waste. You're acting and we all have like, we all get uncomfortable.

We all have wants, we all have desires, we all have whatever we all get pissed. So we you're just acting this way. So when you're with a people pleaser, you don't know if they're actually having fun. You don't know if they wanna be there. You just know, usually they'll blow up or they'll say, well, I wasn't happy then during that time anyway. So it's hard to trust.

I wanna know if I'm with someone who's not having a good time, I want them to tell me and leave. I had a really cool experience a couple weeks ago with somebody who called me for a favor for this cool project. And they asked the favor, and then they said, I just don't know if this is too much, or if I just don't want to put you in a bad position. And I said, and I felt like, oh my god, this is my recovery.

I said, I want to do this thing, and I need you to know that you can always ask me for what you need, because I will never do anything that I don't want to do. I promise you that if you tell me something, if you ask me something and I don't want to do it, I will say to you, I don't want to do that, or I'm uncomfortable with that. So you don't have to worry about it. I will always to you, I don't want to do that or I'm uncomfortable with that. So you don't have to worry about it.

Just I will always tell you. Oh my God. Did you feel like you're like, I am singing from the top of a mountain? Like that's a huge. And she's like this big producer person. She was like, awesome. Really? And I was like, yeah, I'll just tell you, I'll just say, I don't know.

Thank you. She was like, wow. And that's beautiful because that frees that person's system up. They don't have to tie themselves into tangles for 45 minutes wondering if they should ask you something. And they know if you say yes, you want to do it. And if, and they're also prepared for your no, because you've already forecast that there's going to be things that you're going to say no to. Yes. And it like it sticks to the point of like we are all people pleasers. I just I am people. You're like but my person I'm trying to please is mostly myself. Mostly I am pleasing the people who is me. The people who is in this body. Yes. And what I find is that that in this weird way pleases everyone because they're not constantly trying to take care

of me or figure me out or, or deal with my bitterness because I've said some, yes, to something that I didn't want to. And then it seeps into everything else. They're not trying to like figure out why is she resentful for no good reason. No, because I might not be like completely available or whatever, but you can trust me. You can trust I'm gonna say, and that is a big thing. That is a really big thing. I can't do it anymore.

I won't be in relationship with people who don't take care of themselves because it's just violent eventually. I love Alice. Alice, tell your good, good people to listen to this part and give you suggestions on dinner and take up the space in their own body and just don't, don't freeload on the flow. Yes, because somebody's the flow, damn it. Alice is the flow. Alice is flowing, flowing, flowing. And you're like, oh, I'm so, aren't I a gift? I'm so easy breezy.

And Alice is exhausted over here from flowing and flowing and flowing. Yes, and I do, not now, but at some point, I want to talk about the phenomena. I think we think of people as people pleases or not, but I actually have discovered recently that there's like a couple people in my life with whom I turn into tofu people pleasing.

I don't understand that phenomenon. Like a couple people, I am gone. I don't know where I am. I don't know that person that I just told you about on the phone with the producer. That person is non-existent. Why is it that with some people, the chemical reaction of that is you turn into a people? So is it not like people are people pleases or not, but we all have that capacity and

like there are some environments where we morph into this chameleon thing and why? I'm just curious about that. Maybe we could find somebody to talk to us about that. Sure, that's true. Okay, let's end this episode with Eli. Hi guys, Eli. He, him. Okay, I'm having like a super tough morning and I'm like out for a walk because I need some space and I'm listening to the podcast because I need to listen to some rational people talk about some hard shit. I have a puppy that's having puppies today and like for the last five days our house has just been like strung out and this morning I got up early to make eggs and cinnamon rolls

and coffee and everything for all these women that are in the house, for the pregnant dog, not that women part the house, for the pregnant dog, not that the women part is important, sorry. But just my wife got up at 3.45 and like freaked out on me and said some awful shit and she is so tired and just so like strung out and I know that, I know it. And it doesn't make it any fucking easier. I need a moment to talk about it with somebody that is just like not there and is not going to be affected and it's just like the way in the situation and I don't have a person

I can call so I called the hotline. Sorry it's not a question. Okay guys. I don't know I don't have anything to say other than I think it's my favorite message we've ever gotten. And it just means, it makes me so happy that Eli was just losing his shit and thought I will just call Amanda, Navi, and Glutton and tell them about this.

I love Eli so much. Me too. The ways I love Eli include much. Me too. The ways I love Eli include the following. Let me count the ways. Eli has welcomed apparently many, many women into his house. Do less, don't do less. His pregnant puppy who is having puppies this very day on the same day that his wife woke up and really freaked out on him and said some awful shit. He then woke up and made eggs and cinnamon

rolls and coffee for said women. Also then another favorite part is when right after he said so many women in the house, he very quickly said, not that the women part, not that that's important. No, no, no, no, no. There's nothing wrong with that. It wasn't disparaging groups of women on your hotline. I wish, you know what? Hearing this, I was like, I have a glimpse

of the other side that I never see. Like, first of all, Eli, please keep calling us because we need to know how your people feel because your people don't tell us very much. No, no. And I, as a person who freaks out sometimes, I understand. It's very hard.

Yeah. And I'm really glad that you called. And I really wish you'd keep calling. And I need, I feel like he, him's, need more people to be able to call. Yeah. I like how he said, I needed somebody who would not be affected by this.

Yeah. It's so big and huge to have. That's why I love meetings so much. It's like, you can say anything, but it's not all tangled up in your relationship or you don't have to deal with people's feelings about it or just like a steady presence that you can just say it to and that's it.

You just need somebody to hold it and not be do the family friend narcissism thing where you all, you think it's about you and you try to fix it, or like, you know? I mean, I think it's a little about me. Well, is it terrible that I, for real, my thought was like, do you think they need any extra homes for those puppies?

Eli calls back if there's a way we could help in terms of taking your puppies. Eli, Eli, come on. There had to be a reason for this. I mean, I just love, you freaked out on me and said some awful shit. Cause she's just so tired. And I know that, I know it.

But it doesn't make it any fucking easier. I know it, I know it. We say, amen to you, Eli. And to the rest of you pod squatters, we love you so much. We know it's so hard. And we know hearing it doesn't make that shit any easier. We can do hard things,

but it doesn't make it any fucking easier. We'll see you next time. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper

right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend we would be so grateful we appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Burman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.