We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - It’s Not Too Late! How We Save the Planet with Dr. Ayana Johnson

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

404. It’s Not Too Late! How We Save the Planet with Dr. Ayana Johnson Glennon, Abby and Amanda speak with Dr. Ayana Johnson, a marine biologist, policy expert, writer, and teacher working to help improve our climate future.  The joy of imagining what comes next for our planet, if we mobilize and engage in fostering climate solutions.  How to create a personalized climate action plan: realistic things you can do on an individual and community level to help heal the planet.  Why we’re not as satisfied with hyper-consumerism as we think we are and how we can get back to nature.  For more, check out Dr. Ayana Johnson’s podcast What If We Get It Right? on Apple or Spotify. About Dr. Johnson:  Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson is a marine biologist, policy expert, writer, and teacher working to help create the best possible climate future. She co-founded and leads Urban Ocean Lab, a think tank for the future of coastal cities, and is the Roux Distinguished Scholar at Bowdoin College. Ayana authored the book What If We Get it Right?: Visions of Climate Futures, co-edited the bestselling climate anthology All We Can Save, co-created and co-hosted the Spotify/Gimlet podcast How to Save a Planet, and co-authored the Blue New Deal, a roadmap for including the ocean in climate policy. She earned a BA in environmental science and public policy from Harvard University, and a Ph.D. in marine biology from Scripps Institution of Oceanography. She serves on the board of directors for Patagonia and GreenWave and on the advisory board of Environmental Voter Project. Above all: Ayana is in love with climate solutions. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There's something about the spring that just makes me crave a getaway. I'll never forget one of my favorite trips with friends a couple of years ago when we headed to the mountains in the spring. The flowers were blooming, the air was crisp, and we stayed in this cozy Airbnb cabin. It had huge windows with the most beautiful views of the landscape, and the kitchen was perfect for cooking up a big breakfast together, we had all the space we needed to relax and unwind much more than a hotel could ever offer. Spring is the perfect time to plan a trip with your family or friends, especially if

you want more space and privacy. Whether you're looking for a quiet getaway or a place to celebrate together, Airbnb gives you the chance to stay in the best local spots where you can truly soak in the season. For your next spring getaway, book one of the most loved homes on Airbnb for a truly memorable stay. Trust me, it's the perfect way to experience the seasons in style. Okay, flights on Air Canada. How about Prague? Ooh, Paris. Those gardens. Trust me, it's the perfect way to experience the seasons in style. Okay, flights on air Canada. How about Prague? Ooh, Paris. Those gardens.

Gardens. Amsterdam. Tulip Festival. I see your festival and raise you a carnival in Venice. Or Bermuda has carnaval. Ooh, colorful. You want colorful. Thailand. Lantern Festival. Boom. Book it. How did we get to Thailand from Prague? Oh right, Prague.

Oh boy. Choose from a world of destinations, if you can. Air Canada, nice travels. ["The New Book"] It is getting very close to book release time. Our new book, We Can Do Hard Things, Answers to Life's 20 Questions, comes out on May 6th. You can pre-order We Can Do Hard Things

anywhere you get your books, or you can go to treatmedia.com. You can also join us for a virtual event that we're doing on publication day. You guys, we're doing a live virtual event because since the tour sold out so quickly, lots of you were sad to not be a part of it and we can't stand your sadness.

So we're hosting a virtual event to support those who could not get tickets and to support our beloved local independent bookstores. All the proceeds from this virtual event are going to these local bookstores. They show up for us, we're showing up for them. May 6th. If you pre-ordered the book from an independent bookstore, you don't have to buy it again to come to the event, please register for the event by uploading your Indie order at treatmedia.com and just click the option that says, I've

already pre-ordered from another Indie. Okay, we'll see you there. Hello! We did it! We did it! We're here! How are you? It is such a treat to meet you. How's it going? Good. I'm Glennon. I'm Abby. I'm Amanda. It's so nice to be with you. Thank you for making the time. Nice to meet you all. This is really an honor to be with you. Good that cute book you've got on your shelf there. I mean, it's so cute. It's so bright.

Also, I was looking at it this morning and it's all like banged up, which I feel like is my, the only the books that I've really like, grip brought into the bathtub with me, carried in my purse. That's what this book has been, it's been on many journeys. I'm so glad you've brought that book into the bathroom. Yeah. Deeply honored. That's the first feedback to that degree that I've gotten.

It's her most precious space, is the bathtub. Not scrolling Instagram, but being like, climate solutions. Where are we at? Like, let's take a poop about it. Yes. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, you need a warm, comforting situation when you're diving into these topics.

And everyone got to get in the right flow for that. That's right. And that's what we're trying to provide today is a warm, cozy atmosphere. The best segue of all time, truly. Thank you for noting that. Whenever anyone says the word segue, I just have to repeat that I've spent my entire life up into two years ago calling it a segue, because I had only

seen it in writing. I was definitely one of those kids that read more than people talked to me. Exactly. And so I have a long list of words like that read more than people talk to me. Exactly. And so I have a long list of words. Same with Glennon. Every once in a while I go, wait, what'd you say? What was the other word?

Swored? Lots of them. I said swored. I said everything's are going hour-y. Aright. Yeah, anyway. Oh. Okay, you're in deeper than I am, honestly.

Yeah. I've caught up on some of those. Anyway. OK, you're in deeper than I am on this one. I've caught up on some of those. OK. Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson is a marine biologist, policy expert, writer, and teacher working to help create the best possible climate future. She co-founded and leads Urban Ocean Lab and authored the book, What If We Get It Right?

Visions of Climate Futures. She earned a BA in Environmental Science and Public Policy from Harvard University and a PhD in Marine Biology from Scripps Institution of Oceanography. Above all, Ayanna is in love with climate solutions. And that is why we are in love with Ayanna. Yes. Thank you for having me.

It's such a treat to be with you. We just, of all the people to talk to about this and this moment, we know it's you because, well, obviously we've read your book, we followed your work, and in just this kind of existential moment, which I guess the moment's been going on for a long time, but will we save the planet we live on or will we not? You're just the person to talk to because you are just always insistent upon looking

beyond the doom of it all and focusing on the could be. You always say instead of obsessing over what if we blow this, we have to ask what if we get it right. So good. Oh my God. Which really. Thank you for bringing that. I mean, it's worth thinking about at the very least.

Yeah. Yeah. And isn't it also a way of bringing people into accountability? Because if we're just talking about the doom, then everyone freaks out and shrinks back. And you can say it's not my fault. Right? It's the oil executives, it's the politicians, the PR people, it's the people destroying nature, it's big ag, right?

You can make all these excuses why it's not your fault. And if it's all heading toward the apocalypse, then you don't have any responsibility either. And so I think asking a question like, what if we get it right is sort of a calling in, like, okay, like we still get to shape the future. It's not totally written yet. And so if we let go of this binary of apocalypse or paradise, and just think about like, how can we build the best possible future together? Then that's gonna require all of us.

And so it's like, all right, well, what's your part of this? And that's, I've been thinking about it. It actually feels like that is my mission or my life's work is to welcome more and more people into finding their roles in climate solutions because we really need everyone because we have to change basically everything. Okay, so we have to change everything. Okay, great. So we'll start there and then we'll

work backwards. Okay. We'll start. I mean, just to break that down a little bit, not everything like falling in love and shooting stars and like not everything everything. We'll still have families and communities and so much of the sweetness. That's just who we are as humans, right? The full range of human emotions and all of that. But what kind of planet we live on and what other species we share it with and the state of the ecosystems that we're a part of is very much up for grabs. And so when I say that we have to change everything, I mean that

in a very concrete sense, like we need to change our transportation systems and our food systems and we need to update our buildings. We need to transition from an economy and a society that's based on fossil fuels to one that's renewable and regenerative, right? So that requires changing a lot of the underlying systems that support the way we currently live. But the good news is we have the solutions we need. It's not a mystery how to have more public transit or have electrified transit and how to insulate buildings mystery how to have more public transit or have electrified transit and how

to insulate buildings and how to make appliances more efficient and how to conserve water and how to prepare for extreme weather. We know all this stuff, how to protect and restore ecosystems. That's like a third of the solution right there. So it's not, I feel like we get so caught up in the problem that we don't talk enough about the solutions and the possibilities. Why if we know what we need to do? Why are we not doing it?

Well, we could ask that about like any number of things, climate or otherwise, right? There's so many things we know we should do. Like I should probably exercise more regularly and eat more vegetables and like go to bed earlier, you know? So to me, it doesn't seem unique in that way, but I think there's the word accountability that you mentioned already, like that's part of it.

We don't have a lot of accountability when it comes to how we show up necessarily as members of society. We have it maybe in our personal relationships, in our households, but as far as like our civic accountability or our community level responsibility, I feel like that's quite lacking in a lot of places. I have to create that for myself, right, with my friends. Like, what are we doing? Who's doing what? Can we collaborate?

Are there opportunities for action that I'm missing? I think a lot of people are thinking about that right now in terms of like the political context in America too. Like, what can I do to safeguard the people in the places that I love? Requires doing something beyond your home. So I think the reason that we're not charging ahead with all these climate solutions we have, there's several answers. I'm sure I'm going to miss some, but one is for so long the problem was diminished. And it was that thing like, well, if it's that existential

of a problem, like clearly someone would be doing something about this. Clearly the media would be taking this more seriously. Clearly this would be like saturating the communications we receive if our quality of life on this planet were all at risk. So I think there's that cognitive dissonance between. This is a very serious problem, say the scientists, you know, as it's reported. It's like, scientists say. Those crazy scientists.

Scientists are concerned, like, why are we not all concerned? Right? So there's this dissonance between the science, which can feel distant and like the way that's communicated to us. So the media has a big role to play in people not taking this seriously enough. And then the way it's often talked about is that the solutions are the provenance of like experts of politicians who are writing the laws of the engineers who are creating the electric cars, right? It doesn't often feel like something that everyone can pitch into, apart from in this very generic like march protest, donate, spread the word, lower your personal at home carbon footprint, which are all like great things to do, but are not enough to get us there unless we're showing up in all these other ways.

Like, are we supporting composting in our communities? Are we getting bike lanes installed, right? Are we getting our own homes if we own them off of fossil fuels? Are we using all of the credits under the Inflation Reduction Act to put in solar panels and induction stoves while those tax credits still exist? And all of these things that we have to think bigger

than ourselves. And I think that's just a muscle that's atrophied. This like civic engagement, this community level engagement in making the world that we want. And I guess the best kept secret is like, it's just a better world. If we have cleaner air, because we're not burning fossil fuels, cleaner water, because we're not having like oil spills and fracking problems, right? If we have healthier food, right?

That's not doused in pesticides, which are basically derived from fossil fuels. We have healthier soils, and we have more biodiversity because of all of this. We're protecting ecosystems that are absorbing all this carbon. We also have like just more beautiful forests and meadows to walk in and more butterflies and bees, right? Like there's just so much upside. Anyone who's driven an electric car is like, oh, these are just better. So I feel like a lot of it is a comms problem and a lot of it is a greenwashing problem. Like for so long, we've been told that the way it is is the best way. And it's just not true.

When I learned the phrase, now we're cooking with gas, you guys remember that phrase? No, yeah, now we're cooking with gas. That's like Johnny Carson was paid to say that by a fossil fuel company to popularize that term. Before that, everyone was using mostly electric stoves. And then we're like, oh, well, the real chefs gotta cook with gas. And this became the whole thing, right? Oh my God. Exxon and other companies in the 70s, 80s, 90s knew their own scientists told them exactly what was going to happen from

burning fossil fuels. They explored going into renewable energy. And then they're like, nah, this is the easier way to make up quarterly earnings that are high. So we'll just stick down this road. Like these were all deliberate choices made by a small handful of powerful white men basically, if we're being really blunt about it. But it is now up to all of us to figure out how to turn this around. And so I think it's important to say that like whether you're a teacher or a nurse or a project manager or in charge of like procurement or booking guests on TV shows or an artist or whatever it is that you do, if there's a way that you can be part of pushing solutions forward, of helping people find their own roles,

of just like rolling up your sleeves and figuring out how you can help. I mean, don't give up, I guess. Is that what I'm trying to say? Yeah, don't give up. Yeah, don't give up. Don't quit on the future of life on earth. That's like the one option I would like

to take off the table for us. Right. There's many reasonable responses possibly, but not giving up on the future of the planet doesn't seem reasonable. One of the parts of your work that feels so revolutionary and and I'm so glad you just mentioned it feels like very in the zeitgeist of this moment in terms of what we're experiencing politically and civically is that it seems like the rise in power of Trumpism, it's really easy as a galvanizing force to be against something that is very easy. It is harder to imagine and to galvanize people towards a vision of something better. It's easy to break, it's harder to make.

That is, I feel like, the moment that we're in and what you identify so beautifully is that people only run toward what they can see. We know these solutions are there, but like we can't see that picture. We can't see that world that is different than the world we're in. And so if we could see it, we wouldn't have to convince people to run toward it. They would just do it because they'd want that for themselves. And I think that's true of whatever's going to get us out of MAGA, is going to be someone painting that picture of the different way and that people want to go

toward that. And I think it's true of this world that we're living in with the planet. So like, when you, with everything you know, see that world, what are the irresistible parts of that world that you see when we get it right? So this is the very last chapter of my book is my answer to that question. There are 20 interviews in the book with all these different experts, right? From farmers and foresters to AI executives and museum curators and environmental lawyers and community organizers and indigenous leaders and youth activists and all these just freaking brilliant folks, landscape designers, all of it, finance folks. And the last chapter of the book, I try to put together my thoughts

along with the lessons that I've learned from all of them, which I had mentioned not to like avoid directly answering your question, but to preface my answer by saying, I think this is a time for collective wisdom. This is not a book I could have written by myself without quoting all these other people. This is a time to be pulling from all these different threads of lessons that people have learned and weaving them together. And when I tried to do that, at the end of the book, the first sentence I wrote was, if we get it right, the world is a lot more green, more full of life.

And that to me, I'm like, full stop, I'm in, because I'm just such a lover of the life on this planet. This term biophilia, which was offered up to us by the scientist E.O. Wilson, really describes this innate sense of loving life, of loving nature that we all have, that tends to kind of atrophy as we grow old if we're not careful to continuing to nurture that. I think about what changes in terms of what society values when we get it right. And one of the parts of this clean energy transition that we need is just like a lot of electricians installing solar panels, rewiring things, improving the grid. Right. So one of the things that I imagine is that when we get it right, electricians do very well on dating apps because everyone's like, Oh, these are the people building the future.

Like extremely hot. That's so good. More ways than one. Yeah. Sparks are flying. Exactly. Okay, Martin, let's try one. Remember, big. You got it.

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But let's face it, some people don't understand the importance of Ford. Ford, it's a big deal event. Visit your Toronto area Ford store or ford.ca today. The more you know about American history, the better you can understand things today. But let's face it, sometimes the way history is taught kind of sucks. So let me tell you about my podcast, History That Doesn't Suck. I'm professor Greg Jackson, and I'd like to tell you a story, not give you a lecture.

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soldiers on the battlefield. The or wherever you get your podcasts. I also imagine that like culture will have caught up with our climate reality. Right now we have just very little coming out of Hollywood or music or pop culture that shows us these visions of what the future could look like, that give us something more concrete to work toward. We have a lot of apocalyptic imagery in films, right? And if that's all we have, it's sort of like,

okay, well, we don't want that, great. And that's not really enough to motivate people. And it doesn't give us a vision that we can see ourselves like fitting into, which I think is, you know, some of the resistance to people to this transition from fossil fuels to clean energy is that people are worried they're gonna get left behind their ways of life, their communities, et cetera.

So the more we can create and show examples of, no, no, there's a place for everyone in this future that we're building together for you and the people, the communities that you love. I mean, I guess we could figure out like electric monster trucks or something like that if we had to. There's like ways to adapt our traditions, right? I talk about this in the book with Paola Antonelli, who's a senior curator at the Museum of Modern Art in New York. And she talks about consumerism as, of course, part of the problem. But there are ways to scratch that itch that are not bad for the planet. I remember being in college and a young professional just being so excited about clothing swaps. Like, I'm going to find a new cardigan in this pile of stuff other people don't want anymore. Right. And it's so social and so delightful and

so giggly. And you're just sharing things and you end up with a bunch of new stuff, new to you stuff. And you've had like a great afternoon with your girlfriends. And so there just are so many other ways I think to satisfy all of these different human desires for like having beautiful things and sharing beautiful experiences with people that aren't about extraction and harming nature. Yeah. So I imagine a world that's like still very much familiar, but maybe with like fewer desk jobs and more people like out in the world making the world that we want to see. I imagine like a more humane pace of life.

I mean, this is just my personal dream. Like I imagine a world with fewer emails. Like while we're washing. We're going to sell everybody right there. Yeah. There's just so much money that goes into subsidizing fossil fuels, like millions of dollars a day from our government and supporting fossil fuel companies. So I imagine all the things we could do with those resources instead. Isn't it true that like 70% of all of the carbon, all of the environmental impact comes from those companies and we subsidize them with millions of dollars a day? Yeah, there's a lot of ways to slice that statistic, but fossil

fuel corporations in America receive subsidies from the federal government, our taxpayer dollars. It's like written into these laws of Congress that are actually quite difficult to unwind, I understand, and that's money setting our futures on fire. And so I'm really grateful to young people who bring this sort of moral clarity to this conversation. Us grownups can get caught up in the nuance and create gray areas larger than they need to be when we can just say like, it's actually wrong to set the future on fire,

to leave this kind of a world to future generations. We need to figure out how to do better. We need to figure out how to make sure our taxpayer dollars are going to secure a good world for them. And so when young people stand up for themselves with this sort of irreverence, like this, are you fucking kidding me kind of energy, like, what are you guys deciding to do?

That moral clarity of youth, I think is critical to harness for this and have some sort of multi-generational approach to this that includes them too. One of the things I kind of want to talk about, because I think as an adult, I've gone through a life, we've all gone through a life, and we've become accustomed to some of our ways. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like the big blocker for people to really accept the fact that climate solutions are really possible is that people don't want to change their everyday lives. They are comfortable in the consuming of products.

They're comfortable ordering from Amazon because it makes their life more convenient and all of the things. And I think that what the listener might want to hear is what are some things that they can be doing actively to create, just not a better necessarily future, but like to create building blocks around helping, helping teach your children. And it doesn't feel like something's being taken away

from you, you know what I'm saying? Yes, because it's like when you're talking and for the first time, even though I know you've said this a million times in your work, but I'm just starting to understand in my body what you're saying for the first time. It's like what's destroying the planet is what's destroying our lives.

It's like the making efficiency and more money and more the thing is what's destroying the planet. And it's also what's destroying our days and our connection to each other and our neighborhoods and our peace and our inability to rest. We are being mined and destroyed the same way the planet is being mined and destroyed. And so if we create this thing together,

it's not like there's not a bunch of things we can't do now. It's like, no, no, no, we're saving ourselves by changing the goal. Yeah, and I think we're also in denial about the fact that life actually isn't perfect right now. I get that people fear change. I totally feel that, but I don't think it's the life everyone wants to feel disconnected

from their neighbors to have every little thing they want to derive at their doorstep to never have like cute chats about the weather at the hardware store. I love those freaking chats. And that's actually where you can build community across political divides. We actually might need a little more small talk. That'll keep our small businesses open. That'll keep our communities thriving, right? That'll have a lower carbon footprint.

All these things can be intertwined in a really beautiful way. And one of the things that I wish people would think about more is how can we repair things? We're so into this disposable mindset that we, you know, your toaster breaks and you're just like, oh well, throw it in the trash. Do we not have places we can take these things, right? Part of my vision, Amanda, for the future is that we have repair shops in every community so that we're not wasting all those like metals and materials that were mined out of the earth

to create these things that we use in our lives. I think it's such a badge of honor to have your sweaters mended and your blender re-sharpened, re-motor reworked. But Abby, to your question, I think so much of the discussion about how to address the climate crisis has been framed as one of sacrifice.

And first of all, as an athlete, you know, like there is some sacrifice to get what you want sometimes. I'm like, that's okay. Like it's freaking worth it. Like you don't want to lift that weight, whatever. You will be very excited to hold that trophy. That's right. That's right. And so first of all, I want to sort of weight, whatever. You will be very excited to hold that trophy. That's right.

That's right. And so first of all, I want to sort of not let that be a dirty word. Like we can work for the things that we want. But I remember when Al Gore's movie came out, An Inconvenient Truth, whenever that was, like early 2000s, I was just like, that's a weird title. I truly did not understand the meaning of that title

until a few years ago. And I was like, oh, I get title. I truly did not understand the meaning of that title until a few years ago. And I was like, oh, I get it now. Like change, people don't want to change some of these things. It's inconvenient to think about change. But I guess I would challenge us all to think about like, what is it actually that we're holding onto? Yeah.

Right? Are we holding onto like Lunchables as the thing we don't want to give up? Right? Like all this fossil fuel based plastic and like ham from a disgusting polluting, you know, factory farm. Like, is that the thing that we like can't give up because it's so convenient? We know that Americans are very lonely, have fewer friends, you know, than people did generations ago.

Like our happiness levels are low. So when we fear change of our society, I also wonder if we're just not being honest with ourselves that there is something missing now, that it's not perfect now, that if we think about turning our lawns into biodiverse gardens that welcome butterflies and grow food that we can share with our neighbors and like feed to our kids, would that be nicer than having to mow your lawn every weekend?

I don't know. Yeah. Totally. And I think what you're getting at, like with Glenn and I feel like I'm feeling it too. If we aren't connected with nature and we're so disconnected in a way that we are ordering things into our house

and we're abusing our choices in a way, there is this part of me that when I do think about climate change, I do have a part of me that's like, there's nothing I can do. And that feels so terrible that there's almost like a frozenness to me that I don't know how I can even move.

But I think Glenn and what you're saying is like, when we're acting irresponsibly with nature, it will affect us. And we don't know that that part is the thing that might be able to instigate us. Because we talk about this all the time on this podcast. Well, my intentions and being aligned and being in alignment with my life. It's like, wow, we really need to take it even more deeply into like the nature talk.

We do need to get more, cause we are nature. We're not the only species on this planet. There's like 8 million something other species we're supposed to be sharing this planet with. And I would say we're not doing a great job of that right now. And to remember that we are a part of nature instead of just living on top of it. I remember when I was a kid,

this is gonna be a weird anecdote, but I grew up in Brooklyn in New York City and there was some sort of repair work going on with pipes and they were digging up the sidewalk. And I remember seeing this like rich red brown dirt under the sidewalk and just thinking like, there's dirt here. It just seems like concrete and asphalt, right? Like you forget that we're just like building on top of nature. And so this is a little bit of just like word play, but I try to imagine what it would be like to live

within nature instead of on top of it. And as we think about things like the wildfires in LA, that's what happens when you live on top of nature with this hubris that you can dominate it. And like, you're not a part of these natural cycles and it leads to like really awful painful devastating lethal consequences and so as all this burning of fossil fuels and all this destroying of nature has changed the dynamics of our planet of our weather of our climate of extreme weather events, right?

Not just fires, but flooding and sea lorries and hurricanes and drought and all of it. I think we need to have a bit more humility, honestly, that we can't like control all of nature and that we need to also, as well at the same time as trying to move solutions forward, adapt to the world as it's changing around us. But I also, like, Abby, what you said about feeling

overwhelmed and not knowing what to do, I wanna address that specifically because, well, A, I guess that's like a really important first step. And I think that applies to any number of challenges that we face as individuals, of course, but that this is also an opportunity to get really creative about how we want to be part of solutions, right? If the world of solutions includes like changing politics, changing culture, changing transportation and buildings and our energy systems, right? All of this, then that

means there's like infinite ways that we can show up and be part of that solution. And so one of the cornerstones of the book is this climate action Venn diagram, which is akin to like the Japanese Ikigai for finding your purpose if people are familiar with that. And so it's just three circles. Hilariously, I drew this before I'd seen Ikigai,

which has a fourth circle, which is how can you make money doing the thing? I forgot that one. Totally was like, eh, damn it. Yeah, but for the capitalists out there, I think that that's an important point because we're missing, there's an actual opportunity that big oil is taking advantage of,

that there is an opportunity that could be utilized in the big capitalistic world space. Totally. Go get your subsidies. Exactly. Totally. There's an absolute market for clean energy and all this stuff.

I mean, do you know how much electricians make an hour? This is a good job, people. Being part of this energy transition is not necessarily a financial sacrifice. Right. But if we think of at least the three circles and then how to pay your bills is a fourth thing. But what are you good at? I think is where I really want people to start. Like what skills, what resources, what networks do you have to bring to the table? And that's totally different for each of us. Right. If Glenn and you and I were doing the same thing

to advance climate solutions, and I'm like a marine biologist, black girl from Brooklyn, who's an absolute policy nerd, it would make no sense for us to do the same thing, right? So for me, I started Urban Ocean Lab, this policy think tank for the future of coastal cities. That's my thing, because it's where my skills and interests sort of where what I have to offer can align.

So that first circle is what are you good at? And I know that that can be intimidating for people because we all think we're not, our insecurities come to the surface in that, but your skills, your resources, your networks. And then the second circle is what is the work that needs doing? So there are hundreds, if not thousands of climate solutions we can all be working on and we can't do it all. And so to make it real and doable, we have to pick something.

Do you want more rooftop solar in your community? Do you want community level or municipal composting? Because food waste is actually a big source of methane, which is a super potent greenhouse gas. So if we can just compost that instead of putting in landfill, that actually really matters. Do you want to advocate for on the money side of things, like helping people move their savings, their retirement out of funds that are supporting fossil fuels. This is actually for most people, the biggest thing they can do in terms of benefit for the planet. Because if your money is in there, your retirement savings is invested in part in fossil fuels and the continued extraction and drilling. That's super bad.

Watching you two look at each other. Well, I'm making a note to check some shit. Excited for you to report back and talk to your accountant. No, we are already. I think we already did that. We already did that. Okay. All right.

Well, double check. How did you do that? You just look at if your retirement is there. Yeah. So it turns out if you have like more than $50,000 saved up for your retirement, which a lot of people do by the time they're middle-aged, then if that money is not explicitly not invested in fossil fuels, some part of it is. And that's doing more harm than all this going vegan and riding your bike stuff. Good that you could do in the balance.

So Amanda, we just asked for a specific meeting to go through every single thing that our money was invested in and we're just like, no, no, no, no. I had to Google a bunch, I remember Googling a bunch of them to find out they were like secretly bad. Yeah. But you can do that. So it's personally divesting from-

Yes. Personally divesting from fossil fuels. Great. It was a bad day. I'm not gonna lie, it was a hard day. But we did it. But it's like a day, and then you're done. And you don't really have to think about it all the time anymore. And like your money is no longer funding the apocalypse, which is like great.

Yeah. You know? So please, everyone who's listening, this is a very concrete administrative task that you can do that would collectively make a really significant difference. And there's resources like bank for good.org that has information on different banks that are doing right by the planet and green portfolio.com on the investing side that has this curated set of resources there. So I'm not going to give you like the answer, but those are two resources that are a good place to start. Okay, that was sort of a tangent,

but everyone go do that one thing. ["The Way You Look At Me"] So what is the work that he's doing is the second circle. The first circle is what are you good at, right? And then the third one is what brings you joy. And I kind of wish I'd named it like satisfaction or something like that. Because when people think of joy, I think they think of giggling and skipping and just glee as opposed to feeling content and like gratified that you've done your part.

Because to bring it back, there's like, oh, I spent a lot of time writing emails, which I wouldn't describe as joyful, but I do have amazing collaborators. I do feel really good about the projects that I'm a part of. And that's what keeps me going in this work, right? Don't pick the thing that makes you miserable, even if you're good at it, because there's so many other things that need to be done.

And so if everyone can just find their way to the heart of their own personal climate action Venn diagram, I think that would make so much more of a difference than if we each do some generic checklist of like vote, protest, donate, spread the word, lower your carbon footprint. Even though those are completely important things to do, if we're not leveraging our unique skills and superpowers, if we're not doing it in ways that feel delightful,

that inspire us to keep going and do more, then we're just not gonna get where we need to go. So that's my pitch. Everyone bust out your colored pencils, draw your Venn diagram. And I kind of leave out the money part of it as a fourth circle because for some people it's not gonna be your day job. Maybe it's more the way you show up in your community.

Although I think we can all in our day jobs think about how to help make our companies or the ways we do business gentler on the planet too. So we can think about it in terms of like our civic Venn diagram, our professional Venn diagram and our personal one. People get stuck on the personal, right? We get so obsessed with like, am I carrying the right water bottle? And am I like driving the right car?

And am I not using Ziploc bags anymore? And they use up all their energy on that and never get to the big pitching in to societal change and transformation piece. So don't use it all navel gazing all your energy. Right. Yes. I mean, I love the way you did it because it's not like, what is the thing you're most afraid of using that energy?

It's like, what's the thing you love about being alive? What's the thing you love about your planet? Even your coastal work, it's not a coincidence, your heritage and your father's island where he's from. And like that is born from like a real deep love inside of you for the people and for their way of life and preserving that throughout the world. So it's motivated by a love of a thing instead of a fear of a thing.

It's so corny sometimes, but it's just true. Like it just all comes back to love. And I did not expect that to be one of the through lines of this book, talking to all of these technical experts, but it just kept coming up. Yeah. That like love is the answer in all these different ways. Love of, you know, community, love of each other, love of nature, love of these traditions and like ways of being. What also came up a lot was like,

shareholder capitalism is gonna be the death of us with like trying to maximize quarterly earnings and like that being the goal. So it wasn't like, it's not like a 50-feeley hippie did it be kind of a book. It's connected, opposite. But that was very interesting and that like community is the answer.

That doing these things together is the answer, that being isolated, you can't solve climate change by yourself. So if we set that aside as an option, we also set aside the option of giving up on the future of life on earth, then it just becomes this very tractable question of, okay, what can I be a part of? Right? This is not like everyone go start your own nonprofit. It's like, what's happening out there that like I can contribute to and like make better and help grow. And I think because of the way our society is structured right now, that's not our first thought. Our first thought is like, okay, well, what's my individual separate action as opposed to is there an organization in my community already working on this that I could

support? It's good. You know, what's going on out there? Because there's a lot of people doing a lot of cool stuff that certainly all of us on this call could help with and support. And I think that's a much more exciting way to approach this because it's also less lonely. And like the worst case scenario is you make a new friend doing a climate project in your neighborhood. Yeah. You know, I'm listening to you thinking about how I have a little bit let myself get stuck with all of this and I have allowed myself to go into some frozen existential dread at

night thinking about what this new administration is doing. And I was thinking about last night, the idea that is constantly being thrown around now that we can just throw away the planet and get another one. We cannot all move to Mars. I'm just going to put that on the table. That's not how this is going to end. But that's like an underlying pitch here. That is a pitch here. That is a pitch here. And how utterly devastating that is to consider in terms of even

just being a mother on this earth that leaving people on this planet and how disgusting of a philosophy that is. And then while you were talking, I was just thinking about you talking about mending a sweater and how I'm railing against leaders treating our planet that way, but in honor of my children. But my children constantly watch me throw things away that I don't need anymore. Constantly watch me Donate. Consume. You know what I'm saying though, not take care. And it just makes me think of like the way we do the small things is the way we do the big things. If we were a culture who was morally disgusted by over consumption in our homes,

if we became people who didn't throw things away over and over again, just because something shinier and better came around, we would also be people who would never be considering throwing away our planet in general. It is a very slippery slope. And I think I've been thinking these other people are so bad. While in a microcosm living the very way I'm despising the pitch of. We all do have some responsibility for sure. but I do think it's important to be clear that we don't all have equal blame in this problem, right?

Like there are some people who are like the literal bad guys who are like, we're just going to set your future on fire. Fossil fuel executives are causing a lot more harm than you are. We could all be doing better and we should be. And where that kind of leadership is lacking, it's even more important that we step up and try to shift that status quo and make them obsolete. But I don't want people to come away from this feeling primarily guilt at their personal consumption habits.

But there's, of course, like, I think the other part of this, like we all know how to change that. Yeah. We want to, right? There's a convenience and a routine that we get into, but to be just extremely literal about the sweater example, I went to see a friend last night and I had cleaned out my closet and I was like,

I don't wear these sweaters anymore. But I was like, I know if I donate them, they may not end up finding the right home. And this friend who's newly single, who's starting to date, and I was like, these would be great date sweaters. Let me bring these along and see if she wants to incorporate these into her wardrobe. And she was like, oh, these are going to be absolutely a hit.

And I was like, and if they're not, and like, you know, re-gift them along, right? And so I love trying to find the right home for things as I no longer have a need for them because then you're kind of like weasel your way into all your friends' lives and you stand in line. I love it. I'm like, if you have a first kiss in this sweater,

I want to be the first to wear that. Yeah, exactly. You name the baby Dr. Ayanna. That makes it feel irresistible. Ever since the election, we've been talking over and over again about that Tony Cade Bumbera idea of resistance is not enough. We have to make the revolution irresistible.

And I think that a lot about your work in that context. It's not guilt exactly that I'm feeling. It's oh, all of this work isn't, my life is so hard and I'm so stressed and lonely and busy and I can't also save the planet. All right, people? No. It's like, my life is so stressful and busy

and isolated and lonely. And so I enter in this revolution so that my life can be less stressful and lonely. And it's, what's killing the planet is what's killing our connection in our lives. And you'll sleep so much better at night. Yeah. If you're just trying, if you're contributing, right? Like no one of us can change the outcome of humanity's trajectory.

But honestly, like even when I'm feeling overwhelmed, it's really reassuring to know that I'm trying. Like if I have on my gravestone, like she tried, I'll count that as a win, right? Like she wasn't a quitter. She like tried to make the future a little better than it would otherwise have been. And so in one way, I want us to like raise the bar for ourselves, like don't be passive observers

of the decline of our society. Right. Because also that feels like shit. Yes. And find a way to be a part of making things just better than they otherwise would have been beyond your household. Let's set the bar a little bit higher than that. And I think that's the part we miss. Like that feels good to be a part of solutions feels good to team up with your friends and neighbors and your colleagues to do a cool project. It just like feels good.

And it can be super creative and there can be dance parties involved. I mean, the last page of my book is my anti-apocalypse mix tape. I'm like, we have to have the right soundtrack for this you guys. For anyone who wants soundtrack for this, you guys. For anyone who wants to hear this, there's links on the book website, get it right.earth,

where you can go listen to the playlist on Spotify or Apple. If you just need some tunes to get you pumped and to help you feel all your climate feelings. I've got you. That's a good start. That is a good first start. It is about feeling good, right? I think it's about feeling useful, actually. That's specifically the words that I'm drawn to because there's so much debate about hope or fear and like, what's the better motivator? And I'm like, I don't know. I just try to be useful because I don't feel hopeful all the time. And I just want people to know that's okay. You don't have to be optimistic in order to find a way to make things better.

So yeah, there's a poem in the book by Marge Piercy that's called To Be of Use. And I come back to that one a lot because I just think like, okay, well, how can I be useful in this moment and not worry about being hopeful but just focus on being useful. That's good. That's a really good ending. Yeah. We'll stop there. Thank you. You're really useful. Such a treat to talk with you. Thank you. All right, y'all, go listen to the playlist. Feel your feelings and then make your circles. Okay? We love you. We can do hard things. Thank God. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things first, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because

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We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Burman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, and Bill Schultz.