What Now? with Trevor Noah - American Amnesia with Tressie McMillan Cottom [VIDEO]

Episode Date: March 27, 2025

Tressie McMillan Cottom is back on the podcast. Tressie, Trevor, and Christiana discuss Donald Trump’s Tesla infomercial at the White House, the psychology of the American voter, and why so many of us unwittingly vote for candidates whose views are actually the opposite of ours. The three also explore our tendency to not appreciate what we have until it’s gone, and how that ties into America’s current war on women. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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credit approval, savings is available to Apple Card owners, subject to eligibility. Savings on Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch, member FDIC, terms and more at applecard.com. A lot of politicians, if they're accusing like the Pelosi or the Clinton class, really don't know what ordinary people are feeling, right? And for some reason, he's able to be tuned in on the culture wars in ways that like surprised me. He's chronically online. Yes, he is.

I was just about to say, let me tell you what the through line is for me that resolves, I would say about 80% of this for me. And I'm like you, I've spent a lot, a lot, a lot of time thinking about this and kind of like holding that voter up in like perverse fascination, like what's happening in there. And I do think your point gets at it, Trevor, which is I'm not sure that understand is the right word. I don't think you need to understand to act. Yeah. To be able to observe something accurately doesn't mean you diagnose it properly.

Yes, that's what I mean. Right? He is the only politician out there right now who says a thing is a thing. Thank you, that's what I mean. That doesn't mean. This is why I need Tressie around. This is what I need.

You came here to be on my side. No, I'm not on your side. I'm not on your side. What I meant is that she articulates, This is what Tressie does brilliantly. She articulates an idea in the most crystal way possible. It's exactly this. This is What Now with Trevor Noah. Please tell me, did you see the Elon Musk, Trump, White House Tesla sale? Car sales show?

No, I didn't see that. Oh yeah. The only thing I was missing was Vanna White. No, when was this? Yesterday. So literally, it's so funny because we've been talking about Elon Musk on the podcast, all these things. Trump brought Elon Musk to the White House or Elon Musk brought Trump to the White House.

Who knows? Yeah. Depending on how you want to, depending on where you think the power lies, right? So, Elon Musk is there and Trump's there. They bring a Tesla and Trump's like, I'm buying a Tesla with my own money and... Oh my God. ...guys... Nobody believes.

And the man did a full-on infomercial. Someone took a picture of Trump's notes. He was handed the sales notes. So the price of each car with self-drive. This is so embarrassing. And then like little asterisks like terms and conditions at the bottom. Please self-drive is free. It just needs to be activated on all of the cars.

This car costs this much. That one costs this much. For low zero APR for 36 months. I'm like this is the President of the cars, this car cost this much, that one cost this much. For low zero APR for 36 months. I'm like, this is the president of the United States. Shilling cars on the front. You know what it was for me? If Trump had even a modicum of panache, he would have brought it as more of a... This is American ingenuity.

That's what's supposed to happen. Yes, you go, I just wanted to take a moment to show you why America is great. And you know, Elon here, just like... You know, just try and find in South Africa, we used to say like, desist. It means like, it's almost like, find a way to like... It's like just add a little opaqueness to what you're doing. Yeah, just make it a little cool. Make it a little, you know what I mean?

Bring in like three cars, but then focus on Elon's one. No, no, no, this man full on, for this low price, one time offer. And then he gets guys out this moment, you know Trump, only Donald Trump, he gets in the car. He gets, so the car is there. The car's there, the car's there. It's on the lawn. The car's in, like you know the front of the White House,

I guess is where this is, right? So the car's there, they pulled it up. Yeah. And then they get in, right? And Trump goes, first of all, Trump's like, no, I can't drive, I'm not, because I'm not allowed to drive. I want to be like, can you drive? I don't think that man can drive.

No, I don't think he can. But he's like, he's like, I would drive, but I can't, they don't allow me. I'm not allowed, no drive, drive, drive. Does this whole thing. They get in the car. And then the President of the United States, the man who claims to know where technology, economies, markets, all of it is going.

He gets in the car, he looks at the instrument panel and exclaims like somebody who has discovered a new world. He's like, wow, it's all computer! Guys, he says it's all computer. So he's never been in a Tesla. Yeah, but he doesn't say it's all digital. No, it's all computer. So he's never been in a Tesla. Yeah, but he doesn't say it's all digital. No, it's all computer like your grandma.

It's all computer! Yeah, they put computer in car. And he shouts it out to us like we don't know. Yeah. He's like, you know, it's all computer. Wow, you look inside all of it. All computer. It's all, wow, this.

Yep, that's the man with the nuclear codes for you. Yeah. Actually, I felt more calm. I was like... I actually don't mind if he had the nuclear codes. Because if a man calls a computer, if the car is all computer, that man cannot launch anything. You know who's sitting somewhere right now going, are you kidding me? It is Hillary Clinton.

Do you remember when they made fun of her because she couldn't work the soda machine in a convenience store? Oh, in a convenience store. I don't remember. Was that on the campaign trail? Yes, campaign trail. So, you know, America, you know, being a regular American, so they go to like a 7-Eleven. Yeah, they go out and do the thing. And I always felt sorry for her because I do think those machines actually are overly

complicated. And I really felt a rare moment of deep empathy for Hillary Rodham Clinton, because she was like, she's got her cup, you know? And it used to be a physical thing. You'd press that. Well, that's not no more. You know that thing now that spins your cup and it does and you mix and flavors and all that. And she was overwhelmed.

And they acted like that woman had lost her mind. Double standards. Yes. Now Donald Trump, he'd get in a car and say, computer. But I think Trump is the only one who gets the double standard, to be honest with you. I think every other politician gets nailed for the smallest things. Eating pizza with a knife and fork. Who's the guy who's screaming, yeah!

Oh, Howard Dean. It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman. Binders full of women. Women. You name it. You get Trump has some... That's why they call him the Teflon Don. The man does things that no other person could do.

Guys, there is no one who could maintain the level of respect that he will still maintain from his people after getting in a car and saying it's all computer. Yeah, I agree. If my six-year-old or seven-year-old said that, still maintain from his people after getting in a car and saying it's all computer. Yeah. I agree. If my six year old or seven year old said that I would be slightly disappointed because I'll go, but you know that that's not how you say it. I would get them assessed. I'd be like, let me get you assessed.

Let's find out what's going on here. Yeah. Cause baby you've seen the tabloids. Yeah, yeah, you know that. That's what I mean. going on here. Yeah, because baby, you've seen the tabloids, right? You know the idea. That's what I mean. Yeah, yeah. But also, for me, it was also the... It's because of how Trump likes to paint himself as the pinnacle of evolution, you know? I don't know why I get hung up on these things more than I do on him dismantling democracy,

because that to me is almost... I don't know how to explain it. It's almost obvious. Like he's just doing it. He's doing it. And he said he's going to do it. And he's doing it. Yes, he said he's how to explain it, it's almost obvious. Like he's just doing it. He's doing it. And he said he's going to do it. And he's doing it. Yes, he said he's going to do it and then he's doing it.

But then there are the small elements where he gets exposed for not being what he pretends to be in upper society. Like when they asked him about immigration and he said, he said, we need to be bringing in experts into the, we got to get, because H1B is very good. H1B1, very good, very important. We gotta bring... We need more people in, like, wine experts. I was like, you mean a sommelier? Yeah.

Like, if you're in upper society, if you are up in that world... You don't say a wine expert. You don't say a wine expert. No, you don't. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. My quote from him is when he said,

people are dying who have never died before. Okay, but to be fair, as a black American, I love that one. Let me just tell you, the number of times I've heard an old black woman say, they dying like they never died before. I thought, okay, when I had that one, I can kind of get with...

People are dying who have never died before. Never died before. Yeah. Yeah, we have a deep funeral culture where I'm from, and I was like,. Yeah, that one, yeah. We have a deep funeral culture where I'm from, and I was like, I could see that one popping off. But think about Donald Trump, are the moments like you, I'm a little obsessed with these moments where he's clearly revealed,

and I think a lot about why didn't that work? Like, right, why didn't that work? Because the great story to me of Donald Trump is, you know, he's New York's version of a country bumpkin. He's not a Manhattanite. He was never accepted here. That's what a lot of his grudge is about. He learned, however, that if you just win enough, they will at least give you a ticket.

He knows he's not invited because they like him. But, you know, he learned that. And I think he just got still... And I hate all the psychological explanations, by the way. Why? Why do you hate them? Oh, you know, because I just think it's very American of us. Yes, that's part of it. This is absolutely professional envy But because psychologists keep winning and I'm not sure they got all the answers You know what I'm saying? But I also think this like very American of us to think that oh, it's only true if he really meant it if there's something deep inside

only true if he really meant it. If there's something deep inside. Oh, okay. And I'm like, it doesn't matter whether he means it. It matters that he does it. And I'm like, you know, I don't really care if it's because he's insecure or if he... Lots of people are insecure and they still don't do horrible things to people. So I think we can kind of over rely on psychology to excuse away bad behavior. Yeah. Especially in politics. I'm like, does it really matter if he really hates... I think we can kind of over rely on psychology to excuse away bad behavior. Yeah. Especially in politics.

I'm like, does it really matter if he really hates trans people? That's interesting. Yeah, yeah. Why are we so obsessed? I've heard people have the same argument around Kanye. Yes. So they'll go, yeah, okay, fine, he's bipolar. Fine, but still, he's doing the thing.

There are many bipolar people who are not doing the thing. That's exactly right. But the one element I keep throwing out is, yes, but how many bipolar people are billionaires? Yes It's the billionaire problem. I think he has a brain injury. He kind of went through a car, right? You know those athletes with CTE, yeah Changes your whole personality CTE, you like kill their wives. And it changes your whole personality. I've never thought of that.

He's got traumatic brain injury and bipolar and a billion dollars. Put those three things together. That's my chronic thing. Oh, that's your theory. Yeah, I'm just like, yeah, I think he's got TBI. I can't believe I never thought of that. He displays all the traits. The violence, the unpredictability.

But I don't know if, yeah, I'm conflicted on that because I often go, how much time should we spend trying to understand how people got there? And I almost feel like maybe the two can happen. It's not binary. No. On the one hand, we can say it's good to understand it because maybe if we understand it, we can try and figure out how to not let it happen again. Yeah.

You know? But then on the other hand, to your point, we shouldn't be using it as an excuse. So my thing on that is I think this might be a division of labor problem, which I mean, like, does everybody need to understand it to condemn it? The behavior. It may just be that, OK, there are people who will puzzle out the how and the why. And then the rest of us, I think it takes a little humility to say, hey, I don't do that. I don't know anything about it. But I do know that he said this thing that I find abhorrent, and so that's enough for me.

I think the problem is there are too many people who feel like they can diagnose. So for them, that I need to personally understand before I can ask. I'm like, the world's just too complicated for that. That's true. I think the thing I am still fascinated by is the Trump voter. That's true. I think the thing I am still fascinated by is the Trump voter. Oh yeah. I'm curious about the psychology of the, I know a bunch of Trump voters.

People tell me their truth. That's why people. What are you fascinated by? What is it that you either don't understand or are trying to understand or you know? Because I think that when he first came to power, the liberal media establishment spent a long time being like, oh, it's because of they're economically disempowered and then the data show that they weren't economically disempowered. It said they are afraid of being in these diverse neighborhoods with lots of immigrants and it kind of showed that, well, that's not the neighborhoods they were living in. Yeah, yeah. We've never been able to understand these people.

And instead of them diminishing, it seems like there's more of them and there's more consensus. And I think there's lots of simple explanations to why they do what they do, but he understands them. Yes. Right? So I want to understand the people he understands because he understands his vote more than anybody else in the world. I strongly agree. He knows he could say they're out of this world. He said, I can say they're eating cats and dogs and my people are not

going to care. And he knows where the kind of like the third rail is. Like Trump knows where not to go. Right. Yes. In ways that we act like he is reckless. He knows we're unfathomable degree, but I have seen him Sometimes cake walked up to a line that you would assume he would cross. Yeah, and he doesn't right He knew saying black jobs would resonate with like the foundational black Americans into it That's right. They were like, yeah, we know what he's talking about Yeah So he understands them but many other people don't understand them, especially the Democrats,

the people saving democracy and trying to stave off fascism. Is that what they do? Well, they claim to be doing. That's what they do. That's a follow-up question I had personally. Okay, here's two things that I think of sometimes in that regard. I'd love to hear how you see it, Tracy. Because I go, on the one hand, I don't think that his understanding is special.

I'll put it there first. What I do think is he is thriving in an environment where everyone else spends more time, to your point, trying to understand things as opposed to just pointing them out. You with me? So what I mean is Trump will go. The immigrants are coming in. Too many immigrants. Then the person who's running against him will spend more time going, we need to understand how, you know, people move around the globe and what migrationary patterns tell us about the stability of other, you've lost people. So what Trump does really well is,

he starts with the problem, and then he goes like, we'll figure out the solution. So let's think of it this way. If you were walking across the road, a bus was coming towards you, bus was gonna hit you, who would you prefer? The person who says, watch out there's a truck. It's not a truck, it's a bus. Or the person who says to you, ah, if you, excuse me, if you do not vacate the road as quickly as possible, there may be a vehicle that might make contact with... And what I mean by that is like there's some politicians I find who spend a lot of time delicately trying to answer a question. Ask most politicians. So do you think homelessness is bad in California?

Well, you know, I think before we talk about what we need to think about, you see, and then where he's winning is he's just being blunt. But that's not what I'm talking about. That's what Black Jobs is. It's a shortcut to say something. But I think it's the way he's able to intuit what people's problems are, being a man with no problems. Right? But he has them, by the way.

No, he genuinely believes he has them. That's what I mean. That's the difference. But his diagnosis feels right. That is what I think, by the way, has cut across class and across race. Yes. This is what, like my great aunt is 91, 92 years old. And she goes, no, you are right.

He is right. There are a lot of people out there who shouldn't be here. Yes. So remove them. That seems like the most straightforward solution. Now, removing them means violating the constitution, you know, violating human rights. Not having enough planes. Not having enough planes. Right. There are all types of complications to that.

But remove them resonates deeply with a lot of people for whom observing the problem is the diagnosis of the problem. Yes. Yeah, remove problem. Yes, it's exactly that. The other one I think that we take for granted, especially if you spend all your time in America, is this, and I love this because I go home so frequently now. I'll be in South Africa, and then obviously I live in America, but I'll go home to South Africa, go back to South Africa, go back to South Africa. The biggest thing I've noticed is we take for granted that when you give people two choices,

they will pick one of the two choices. And then you will spend a lot of time asking yourself why they've picked one of the two choices, but you're not asking yourself what having more choices would have revealed to you. So let's think of it through the lens of sports. One of the things that I've been most fascinated by in the world of sports is how fervently people support a team and yet how nuanced they are in their ability to support another team. And what I mean by that is someone will go, I'm a Lakers fan. Who are you? And the person will be like, I'm an Oklahoma City fan. They're like, okay, you cool. Yeah, because you hate who I hate and you didn't lose to them.

They go, as long as you're not a Boston Celtics fan. As long as you're not a Celtics fan, we good. Who are you? Oh, you're a Knicks fan. You're this fan. And that's what happens in sports is, even when we talk about football in England. I'm a Liverpool fan. And then when we talk about who we go like, if Man City wins, I mean, what's a man?

Who's a Man City supporter? Arsenal wins. You see, it's a thing. And if Man United wins, it's even more now because it's like, okay, we're in the same region of the... So what I think sometimes people forget when they look at American politics is they spend a lot of time going, why did these people choose this? But they don't realize that if there are two choices, they will choose one. And because the parties themselves have become almost like...

I don't know what the right word would be, but they've almost gone, if you have the issue, we don't have it. Oh, yeah. And if you have the issue, we don't have it. Oh yeah. And if you have the issue, we don't have it. That is mutually exclusive. You care about immigration, so we can't. That's my thing. Right.

So if I say to you, okay, who is a fan of saying whatever you want? Who would you say? Republicans. You see, okay? If I say to you, who's a fan of lower taxes? Republicans. All right. If I say to you, who's a fan of free healthcare?

Democrats. You see, I don't think it should be like this. Politics should, you should not be able to pinpoint just like entire swaths or groups in it. You should be able to say, oh, these parties or these groups or that said, oh, this governor believes that and that one doesn't believe this and this. And you know, you see that graph, I'm sure you've seen it, you know, in all your work, Tracy, if you look at the, it's a beautiful graph I once saw of the overlapping dots of

policy that American lawmakers used to have. You've seen it. Yeah. And it shows you how a West Virginia Democrats was further from the same issues as a New York Republican. They were like, no, no, West Virginia Democrat was actually quite close to a West Virginia Republican and New York Democrat was actually close to a New York Republican. It's just, you were, you were like, you were inching, but now because politics

has all become national, I think you're giving people two choices. And so someone will go, cause most people are single issue-ish voters, they will go to your point, remove them. Who says remove them? Oh, only one party. All right, well I guess I know who I'm voting for. Who says we're keeping the coal jobs? Only one party? All right, I guess we're, did you get what I'm saying? Yes. Continue this conversation right after this short break. I would love just as an experiment, I would love to see what would happen if you said to Americans, in fact, the New York Times did this as a game once that people played.

Oh, you're believe like what you actually cared about. Let me tell you, the consternation it created at The Daily Show Yeah, why? was one of my greatest joys. What happened? The New York Times came out with a little quiz. Yeah. You remember this?

I do. And the quiz said, you, we're going to give you a list of issues and how you think they should be solved. At the end of it, we'll tell you who you should vote for. Yep. It was extremely popular, but maybe not for all the right reasons. Can I tell you the amount of people who had existential crisis? People looking at their phones going, that can't, I'm not a Bernie fan at all.

What do you mean? I'm a Hillary. I would never be a... People were shocked to realize that the person they support doesn't actually support the issues or the policies that they would support. And that's what I mean by you've given people the option. So I would love to see what would happen if you said to Americans... Oh, that would be amazing. I would just love to see what would happen. If you said, if you just said in America, like actually we think America is polarized

binary, but I would love to see what would happen if you gave this country a chance to show how complex its tapestry is. I would love to see what we would learn about people. What are the views on immigration? What are the... Don't buffet politics people. Don't be like, you chose this buffet, you chose that buffet. No, no, no. Ellicott, show me your politics.

And all of a sudden we start to get more granular and we start to see things that we've never seen before. Because I think the Democrats have now been able to occupy this position of being more progressive on race. And I have not met more racist people than the liberal white people in New York who won't even send their kids to public school. Yeah. Like just the, and the really subtle psychological warfare. It reminds me of the racism in England, you know, it's like so deft. Oh, it's taken on a lot of the contours of English class-based racism.

Yeah, it's like, I was just like, oh. I think for the same reason. Yeah. Class became so important to the Democratic Party because they are trying to serve the interests of a donor class who has a lot of money while keeping the interests for their identity, we're progressive, we're liberals, aligned with working class, poor people, minority people, immigrants.

So to reconcile those two things, right, think about who you have to be to have both of those things exist for you simultaneously. You got to be delusional in kind of the same way that English people are who will tell me to my face, we don't have racism here. We do have class, but we don't have racism as if these are two entirely distinct, but you have to believe that when you have this really structured class system and really formal, that's right, you have this really formal system of immigration, right? And I think the Democrats have oddly kind of a modified version of that for much of

the same reasons. Their class politics right now do not align with their race politics. And so you get a lot of people who make do with that for the same reason that everybody went nuts over their results to the quiz. I mean, you think about who the typical New York Times reader is. Yes. Daily show employee, perhaps. Oh. And what they realize is that they have accepted a lot of casual racism and policy

so that they could keep their class politics, which is, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I absolutely think we should have more immigrants. We're a nation of immigrants. But I do need local control over my schools. Yes. Because I bought a house in a neighborhood that depends upon my kids going We're a nation of immigrants, but I do need local control over my schools. Yes. Because I bought a house in a neighborhood that depends upon my kids going and being associated with the kids who do the da-da-da-da, right?

That's the Democrats' deal. And one of the things that Donald Trump did really well that they still don't have an answer for is he pointed out the hypocrisy of that. He's brilliant at that. In the way that you and I always experienced it, because we were always the black people, vis-a-vis the Democrats, so we knew it was hypocritical. But for him to point it out and do it so effectively

is part of the reason why I think they are spinning out. Yeah, he's done a great job at that. That's what he's really good at saying to you. Remember when he said, was that one of like, ask Hillary and her friends about the taxes, and where he goes, well, they don't, why haven't they done it? Why haven't? He's like, they've had the power. They could have done it. They had the presidency.

They had the Senate. They had the House. They didn't do it, folks. They said it's a problem, but they didn't do it. It's so interesting that you point that out because it was fascinating to see how OKCupid's founders, we're going to have him on the podcast, were able to see in the data that proud liberal people... Are the most... Did not act in according to what they said in terms of their views. We love that data, by the way, as sociologists say, which we are talking about sometimes.

We love the OkCupid data because our personal lives are the only place left in this culture where we feel safe being racist, classist, elitist, and ableist. Because we say, what? It's just our preference. I can't help. Who, you know, gets me going? That's biology. This has been my favorite thing is when they get asked this. People get asked this in random forums. They'll be like, cool. They'll be like, cool white people. Cool, cool, cool.

And then someone, because things are so cool, someone will say to them, you know, have you ever dated a black woman? And the person will be like, cool white people, cool, cool, cool. And then someone, because things are so cool, someone will say to them, you know, have you ever dated a black woman? And the person will be like, Yeah, I just don't think they had any at my school, you know? I'm sure. And I love how they do the thinking thing, like you wouldn't know. People, you don't need to know. If you ask someone, have you dated someone, you don't be like, have I? Yeah.

Let me think. Let me think about who was she, who was... I'm like, you know the answer. You know the answer. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes. And I think there's like a level of honesty that people aren't able to have, but when it's now going to be in their personal life, they can't hide the thing anymore.

That's right. That's why people went really... Do you guys remember this moment? I think it was around January 6th where there was a group of young women, probably just internet-based, but who admitted to using Hinge and the apps to sort of like catfish Republican men? No. No, I didn't hear about that.

Right. So there was this thing, they would go, okay, you know, you're never going to be with somebody hot like me again, unless you change your politics. And so they would like, pretend to be Republicans to out them to find out where they were on January 6. They'd make the romantic match, right? Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, help me break this up.

So, so these women went online. Yes. Okay. And then... And I think they're hot. You got to have that part. Very, very hot. So these were hot women who went online and they created online. Yes. Okay. And then... And I think they're hot. You got to have that part. Okay. Very, very hot.

So these were hot women who went online and they created profiles. Yes. And then they linked up with Republican or conservative men. Yes. Because they are apparently, according to the data, as you know, they are at a disadvantage on apps. Conservative men, they all complain about it. Nobody wants to date them.

Okay. Then January 6th happens, and I think this started as someone said they recognized a guy they thought they saw on one of the apps once in the videos. So the women start going on and going, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know that guy, I've seen that guy. And so they were catfishing them, pretending to be conservative or interested in

conservative men, and then the chat would go, yeah, so where were you last week? That is so interesting. And it outed like three or four people, right? conservative men and then the chat would go, yeah, so where were you last week? That is so interesting. And it like out it like three or four people, right? You know, I always say to my friends, I always say this, I go to all of us, I go, guys, I don't know, like amongst us, I'm like, I don't know what our downfall will be, but I know it'll be a woman. That's it. I don't care who you are.

That's it. I don't care who you are. That's right. I don't care who you are. Like men, yo, our weakness is women. And it just, you don't know when it comes. You don't know how it's gonna happen. You don't, it might be your business. It might be your marriage. It might be your sports career. It might be your journalism.

I don't know what it is gonna be. But like, that's why the Bible was so prophetic. See like, God on the beaten. They were very clear about that in the Bible. Yo, Adam was never gonna eat that apple. That man, no, no, no. Adam, you know why? You see my face Trevor. Let me tell you why. Let me tell you why. I'll tell you why.

Because Adam, you know why they wrote the story like that? Because they knew. They're like, Adam was stupid and simple and he was just like, yo man, I'm not, and then what happened? Eve January 6th him. January 6th him. She was like, why don't we eat the apple? And he's like, what? Because, yo man, it's a prophetic story.

That's an interesting reading. You think a man could have tricked Eve into eating the apple? Do you have questions about Darwin's biblical- Okay, let me ask you a question. I don't even wanna go down. No, no, no, I wanna ask you a question. Do you think a man, you think a man would have been able to shift Eve to eat the apple?

I think he got her to eat the apple and he lied about it. And now we read the book. Man, I'm not talking about blame. I'm asking you if you think. I'm with the lying thesis. I like the lying thesis. No, I'm going to say something sexist about women. Let's not do this. I would say, I am amenable to male's basic nature of being lying though.

I know a lot of women who are all about the male gaze, and if a man told them to eat an apple and God told them not to, they would do it. Yes. But there's only one man in the garden. I would think that Adam was too stupid to think through the logic of, hey, apple could be good. Right, like to get to that conclusion.

That's what I'm saying. I'm just saying. Now, I'm not sure that Eve convinced them so much. She was like, yo, I'm gonna try the apple. And he's like, now without me, you ain't. Because I do think there's a basic nature here that we're talking about. And so I think the now without me, you ain't kind of came up. I'll agree with that, but I wanted to say something about this app experiment that the

women did. I don't think that would happen in 2025 because I'm noticing a lot of women getting conservative. Oh yeah. I'm seeing it all over my TikTok, my Instagram. Same. I think we're on similar TikToks. Oh, we think on the same algorithm? I think so, yeah. Like the thing about skinniness, how we should dress, about being feminine, being kind of conservative. A return to conservatism. I'm seeing women who were like a few years ago,

I considered pretty progressive becoming more about like, oh, I want only biological women and so on. What is that about, Tressie? Oh, I think that's, we talk about economic anxiety. You guys were talking about that and I agree. I think we totally misdiagnosed like that whole economic anxiety argument. And the case with women, I think, is a perfect example

of how we misdiagnosed it. Yes, people are anxious. That doesn't mean that they should be anxious. What people are responding to is perceived loss, not real loss. That's why you're like, what do you mean? They're rich, they're not economically anxious. Yeah, they are, it's just not real. That's why you're like, what do you mean? They're rich. They're not economically anxious.

Yeah, they are. It's just not real. It's made up. Status anxiety, we're calling it economic anxiety. So when you start saying status anxiety though, that's where I think the gender piece becomes really prevalent. Because what I am seeing happen, same women in my life who were all pussy headed out about it.

They were throwing pussy-heads at me, and they were like, we gotta go. I had to have on a pantsuit for Hillary, right? And today... I'm with her. I'm with her. And today, you know who they are with? A dude in a fleece vest and khakis.

It's like they look at, I think, they are looking accurately at a post-Roe reality. A world where truly truly the United States government is the most powerful force in the world still. And it has declared war on women. Go back home, we want you out of work, we want you out of schools, too much, too far, too fast. And I think you look at that and you go, I'm hitching myself to the thing that provides some cover, right?

And I think that performing conservatism, even if it's just in how you look, everybody's getting the haircuts now. I said the shift from the liberal haircut, by the way, to the conservative haircut, somebody's got to do it. What is a conservative haircut? What's a liberal haircut? You know it when you see it. You know it when you see it haircut? What's a liberal haircut? You know it when you see it. You know it when you see it.

Trevor, honestly, you will. You will know when you see it. Also, with black women, the natural hair movement, I think, is pretty much done. Folks are going back to the blowouts and the relaxers. That's why they were mad when the science came out and said relaxers might be causing cancer, because the transition had started. And I think it's the same reason, the same thing for black women, by the way. We have been at the forefront of like economic progress

for women, that sort of generational forefront, right? Black women, women writ large, outpacing men in education, going to college, we were almost at parity in the most male fields, law and medicine, right? This was like- Is that for black women? All women. All women, okay. Yeah, black women Is that for black women? All women. All women, okay.

Yeah, black women had already exceeded black men, but white women were now coming forward. I mean, we were almost at parity. And now you see this like hostile sort of response to women. And I think you start going, if nothing else, let me look the part. And again, I'm not sure any of that's conscious. I think as you look around, and the aesthetics, for example, of the Trump administration are really clear. Yeah, blonde. Blonde, as blonde as you can get it. And I think that you take that as a cue for this is what we

do now if you want a little bit of safety. Okay, so this is what I think about. I don't think men are safe. The way I was raised was like, have your own money. Wait, do you mean like men are dangerous or you mean men are not safe in the system? Men are dangerous, but that's just me. But they're not a safe backup plan. Let's not say backup plan. A man is not a financial man. Okay, go, go, go.

Your mother was like my grandmother. Yeah, my mom was always like, we spent too much on education for you to become a stay-at-home mother. And then my dad's like, don't, it's her choice. But there's this argument, my mom's like, we invested in these girls. And part of that is a fear of what a man will do to you if he dies or if he leaves you. So you always need to have your own means. And my mom was like, even if you're just selling cakes and you're at home with your kids, just

have your little pocket money. But now I'm seeing a lot of women, and my circle is a lot of women of color, who are like, I want to be a stay-at-home girlfriend, stay-at-home wife, I want a soft life. Can I just say about stay-at-home girlfriend, the oxymoron of that? Pushes my buttons in a way, in a more kind of way. Tell me more. What is a girlfriend? A stay-at-home wife is only allowed to be a stay-at-home wife with the benefits of it,

however marginal its benefits are, because the state says he owes you the money. Yeah. If you a girlfriend. Okay, I see. Who is going to make the sucker give you the money? But that's what I'm saying. People are like, I'll even settle to play house. I love that.

I see these young girls, and I feel like I'm turning into an auntie, but I see these young girls and I'm like, who raised you? Who raised you? I never thought I would see the day when Tressie MacMillan-Carton will be sitting in front of me saying, get the bag, ladies. Get the bag! Get the bag! Yes! Do you know what people's grandmas did for you to be able to get the bag? Do you know what she put up with for the bag to be procurable?

But it's become a meme. There's a meme now like, oh, I wish we could go back and tell those women why it's... Go back! ...women and stuff. What were you thinking? Why would you fight for us to have the right to work? I hate work. But I see this in a different way as well in South Africa, for instance. There are a lot of people now in South Africa who go, maybe apartheid wasn't that bad because at least then there was no unemployment. In apartheid, the electricity was fine. And then

I'll say this, I wouldn't say to women because I wasn't a woman and I wasn't even around then, but still I go, yeah, but remember, it is easy to think that the things worked well when the system was only designed to benefit a few, because then it was working well for a few. So in South Africa, yeah, we had electricity, because we only had to give it to 5% of the population. Yes, the schools were good for 5% of the population. Yes, there was no unemployment, because people were essentially slaves.

So yeah, if you want to go, you're forgetting that things worked, but you're not including who they worked for. And how bad it was for everyone else. That's exactly right. I am curious about like, and I think about this about myself and like younger women that I'm around, why hasn't there been more resistance? Why isn't, like people are surprised when they look at the votes, how many women voted for Trump in spite of the Roe v. Wade thing or just the indifference.

Yeah. You're not seeing women marching in the streets about many of the things happening. It feels like we've just been like, I can't do it. What's that about? I think the reality of progress and it is, you know, it's counterintuitive, but we see this with any kind of form of progress. So the example I like to use is like the classic immigrant story in this country is the parents who immigrate to this country will always be foreign

to their children who benefited from it. They will never truly understand each other. There are millions of books written about that very story. That's just the immigrant story. Why? Because what it took to be desperate enough to leave your home country, to go to the United States of America,

means you will never be able to fully appreciate or understand the benefits of it, so you do it for your children, who will understand the benefits of it, but will never understand what it took to be desperate enough to migrate. The conundrum of social progress is what you have is a generation of women who benefited from feminism, but never experienced what made feminism necessary. We think, and that's not to say that it is not true, but we think the sort of like interpersonal bias

and violence we experience at work or school or whatever is as bad as it can be. When really, as bad as it can be is being fundamentally, according to the state and appendage of your husband. Not having a bank account. That's right. That's actually as bad as it can be. But for you, that's like this vague notion.

It's very abstract. It's very abstract, right? And I think knowing and understanding what made you possible might be fundamentally impossible. So, and not to... I don't want to throw elder women under the bus because I think we do that too much. Did they not articulate enough to us what the stakes...

Who wants to remember what brought you here? Like the amnesia, again, another part of the immigrant story is, how many children of immigrants have said, my parents never talked about this. No. They wouldn't even use our native language. I don't know any of the stories that brought me here. Food, I didn't like...

It's just like, put it away. We do the same thing. They survived it. I've been working on this memoir for a couple years now, and I promise if my publisher's listening, I am almost finished. I swear to you, I know it sounds like I'm doing a show, and my... We're so close. And one of the things that comes up, like, and again, nothing unique about this,

but like, I don't know anything, as it turned out, about my grandmother, who I thought I had known my whole life. Like, the things we don't talk about are huge. The things we don't talk about is probably more than the things we do talk about. And so there's this current, you know, there's this ongoing generational amnesia when you have suffered in any kind of way. Like, I just don't think people want to sit around the dinner table and talk about the beaten that finally broke them or the sexual violence

that finally pushed them to leave a husband, right? People just don't want to talk about that. And so it becomes real easy for you not to inherit the violent part of the story. And all you inherit is, yeah, but she ain't have to go out to no job. Yeah, she would have loved to have gone out to a job. She was begging to go out to no job. Yeah she would have loved to have gone out to a job. Yeah. She was begging to go out to a job. Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now after this.

You know when you talk about that I can't help but think about how it applies to many of the moments of progress that countries have made and society has made. Because everything you just said now could completely be applicable to vaccines, let's say. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Right? Because everyone who is alive now with no polio, no measles, no anything, you cannot appreciate a vaccine. Because you do not live in a world where you are seeing the effects of not having the vaccine. It's so funny, because on both my maternal and paternal line,

I think particularly about my paternal line, my grandmother had a set of kids before my dad and his two brothers. And they kind of always existed in the family imagination. And then when I grew up, I realized that they were pretty older when they died. They were like three and seven. They died in infanthood and early childhood. From things that a kid never dies from now. And when I think of, especially my paternal grandmother, she never got over that grief.

And so I think we live in the shadow of a lot of grief in my family, like the grief of Biafra and the grief of that particular event, those particular events. And so I said, look, when I hear about anti-vax stuff, I get personally triggered because being the child of two Nigerian immigrants, I'm actually not that far away from a world where there are women who would, your child gets an MLR vaccine, you say thank you Jesus. That's right. Because you know what it means. Do you know what I mean?

So that thing about the distance and vaccines, I think there's some populations who like are a bit closer, but for your average person in the West, they don't know somebody that's died of measles or even meningitis. Like some people take the meningitis vaccine for granted now, but I remember when it was a death sentence. Yeah. People take the meningitis vaccine for granted now, but I remember when it was a death sentence. Yeah, but I think about this in all aspects of life. The FAA is a great example. Because America has had such an impeccable track record

flying, people now take for granted the apparatus that has gone into making sure that America has such an impeccable record while flying. People, you don't understand how many planes are flying around all the time, landing, taking off. I mean, these are like decisions. The science of it is amazing. And then people go, we need to gut the FAA.

We need to, and you go, no, you say that because you don't understand that you're experiencing its benefits. That's right. You know, if you've only been in the time of something existing, it is hard for you to imagine a time before it existed and how much better life has gotten. And so then you don't think that it's meaningful anymore. That's right. We talk about like the shadow state, which I find...

I have found that the way the GOP, you know, headed by Trump, but not just Trump in this instance, talkP, you know, headed by Trump, but not just Trump in this instance, talk about, you know, the deep state, you know, oh, the scary deep state, deep state coming for you. And, you know, sociologists have this thing like the shadow state, which is our government functions so well for such a complex, large population, and most of that is invisible to the average American.

Poor people see it because they got to go to court. Yes. Yeah. Okay. But everybody else, water just shows up, trash just rolls out. So what we are talking about here is like a sort of like politics, a disease of like privilege, right? That the state works so well.

It's been so stable, which in the like global scheme of things really is phenomenal. And it works so well for a diverse, far-flung population that a huge cross-section of people who don't have a ton in common any other way can be convinced that the state is unnecessary. Yes. And that in fact, the only way this is working is that there's a secret deep state, right?

But no, what they mean by the deep state is the functioning government. Your checks arrive on time, right? And so what they think the government is, is that customer service number they call, where admittedly, you might get a sister who don't want to talk to you that day. Admittedly. But what they do not see is that you are just like a small handful of exceptions that didn't fit into the bureaucratic majority that time.

Your stuff got lost, but the vast majority of people's did not. Most people's stuff at the DMV actually goes smoothly, believe it or not. We love to hate on the DMV. I wrote a stuff at the DMV actually goes smoothly, believe it or not. We love to hate on the DMV. I wrote a piece defending the DMV once, and the number of people who wrote me letters to tell me their personal stories of DMV. I figured, I thought, what, sounded like you. Then they're like, you say the DMV is disgusting. No, I'm saying if you

have a problem at the DMV, you're like 0.01%. Yes. But you take for granted that the whole population is there, so the 0.01% is huge. Exactly. That's what people don't get. They don't get this about airports. They don't get this about the government. They don't get this about medicine. They don't get this about everything.

It's almost impossible to understand what you have if you weren't around for when you didn't have it. And so like I'll try and say this to my younger siblings with, like, phones and technology and all that stuff. I remember saying to my brother once, I said, you know what's crazy? It's in your life, you've never waited. And he said, what do you mean?

I said, your generation does not know the concept of waiting for something. And he's like, what do you mean? He said, I wait all the time. I said, no, you don't wait. I said, I used to stand in a line at any number of places. Why does this sound like a hundred years ago? It really does. But I said, I used to stand in line at a post office.

That's right. And all I could do, my only entertainment, was to look at the back of the head of the person in front of me. That was it. There was no what's happening in the news. There was no music. There was no video game. There was no sending messages. No the news, there was no music, there was no video game,

there was no sending messages. No, I stood there and I looked at the back of their head for anything from 10 to 50 minutes and that was it. I would sit and wait for a bus to show up. I didn't know where it was. I didn't know when it was. I just stood there and I would judge generally by how many people were with me, whether or not I had made the right choice in timing. If there was no one, I'd be like, maybe I'm ahead of them or maybe they've left me.

And if there's a bunch, okay, now we're not the problem, the bus is the problem. But I was trying to explain this to him and I said to him, and by the way, he wasn't even being a brat, we were just discussing it as like a fun thing. And I was like, man, it's amazing how you can't even appreciate that you don't wait, because you've always never waited. You know why things are not happening or happening, you know where your friend is. Do you remember just waiting for your friend somewhere?

This was the thing I was thinking about. I know this is a generational thing, and again, I really don't want to turn into an auntie, but you know, destiny. I say to somebody, you know, it used to be a thing that I'm going to meet you somewhere at 2 o'clock. I would just see you at 2 o'clock. Now, you have to share your location. They want to know when you've left the house.

They want to know when I've gotten in the car. They want to know how far away I am, where I'm going to park. There's all of this constant interaction, mostly because the idea to your point of waiting is, like, counterintuitive to everything. Like, I'm just gonna see you at two. Like, I'll get there, I'll get there, we'll see each other at two and it'll be fine.

But I found that the level of anxiety that younger people have about not knowing your precise movement and location. I can't imagine, and again, don't want to be one of these people, but I cannot imagine that our brains have developed fast enough for that to be okay with us. Yeah, it's just not. An 11-year-old asked me recently, what age was I when I got my first phone, my smartphone? And I said, what do you mean, honey?

How young was... The smartphone wasn't invented until I was like 25. What are you saying? She was like, I bet you got yours when you were 13. And I was like, at 13, I think we had just gotten call waiting. And we ran it into the ground. That is hilarious. And yet she can't fathom the idea,

because that was her point, by the way. She was like, I don't have anything to do when we're in the car, because I don't have a smartphone. I said, you look out the window. Like, I looked out the window for 20 years. But the concept, and I just don't think the brains are prepared, and I do think that a lot of what we see at sort of a societal scale is that chronic anxiety.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Everything should happen. I should be able to predict everything. You know, the total fear of any risk. Missing the bus, no big deal. You missed it, you waited for the next one.

Now it would be considered like some major... I've seen people risk limbs being chopped off, amputated by the train. Yeah. Because they don't want to miss it as if another one... Is it coming? Will not be coming in five minutes. Yeah. And the time they're saving is so that they can get home and scroll on TikTok.

Yeah. It's not like when they get home, they've got five more minutes to solve, you know, like some crazy equation that'll solve the universe. No. They're rushing five minutes, just five minutes faster to get somewhere where they're going to then waste that time doing a thing. And the reason I say waste is because it's not like what they want to be doing. But as we wrap, Tressie, I want to know from you if like as a sociologist, as someone who's looked at societies and nations and the way things work,

do you think that means the unfortunate ultimate conclusion is for let's say America and many parts of the world as we see now, is the unfortunate conclusion that people will only appreciate it when it now breaks down for their generation. So will Americans only appreciate democracy when Trump has completely obliterated it? Will people only appreciate free speech when it's been ripped away? Will women appreciate the advances that were made by other women when they no longer have it? I am so sorry to say this. Like, I am so sorry you asked me this question because I have an answer.

I've thought about it so much and it is not a good or fun answer. But yes, I'm not... I don't want to be dystopian. I actually don't think it'll be like, you know, I don't think it'll be the type of revolution that maybe some of us Imagine and hope for and I don't think it is like a complete, you know reversal of rights, but I do think it will take the firsthand experience of the loss of a functioning bureaucratic state of

the type of security, I don't think we understand how much like emotional security we get from knowing the government works. From not having to worry about whether water is coming. For not having to worry about whether when you call 911, is somebody coming. And can I say something? Yeah. I've, for some reason, every American city I've lived in, I've been there at a crucial catastrophic event. So I was in New York during COVID. I was in Austin, Texas when the first snowstorm happened that collapsed a grid.

So we had no power and had this one year old child and it was freezing and no help came. People even died. And there was people that used their fireplaces. And then I've also was in LA during the fires. Oh, we should maybe quarantine you. Oh, I'm the problem. That's my takeaway here. I know, I'm the problem. It's me. But like, LA during the fires and it's like, you're using this app actually, which is telling you where all the fires are and how contained

they are, et cetera, et cetera. And that's when you kind of realize they are like, oh, this is teetering on the edge, especially in Texas, when it was like, oh, this is a grid that's not connected to any other grid. This is a state with no income tax, only has property taxes. So it's not like there's like voluminous income to like help people. It was a Republican utopia. Yeah. And you're like, I think that's already what happened in North Carolina. This stuff is already happening. We're having these events that are showing you,

if America gets into, like, a real disaster... That's right. ...it's gonna fall apart very quickly. And, like, the LA fires was the moment I was like, oh, there wasn't enough water? But this guy could get a private fire service to protect his malls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That'ss. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But these homes, but I was like, oh. And people can see it firsthand. The American sickness though is that they would look at that story and go, the solution isn't more taxes. The solution for me is I need to become that rich guy. Yeah.

I want to be rich. That's the American disease. That we look at that and what we diagnose, again, back to like the wrong diagnosis, it was like, oh, if I want the state to work for me, I just better become rich. Now, everybody cannot, of course, be rich, which is why we created governments. But what we don't understand, I think Texas is a great example of this.

Texas is like, again, one of these, you know, utopian political realities for people who believe in like the core tenets of the GOP's political platform. But it only works because everybody around them is not a Republican utopia. Wow. You need the government to be somewhere. And so you can only be a state like Florida,

you can only be a state like Texas that says, we don't use the federal government, see us, you know, big F-U to the federal government. Well, yeah, you know that because all of the rest of us, however, fund it and keep it going and you draw from it and you still need it, right? People learned that during COVID. We saw it firsthand. The thing about this country is our need for ongoing amnesia about how vulnerable we are keeps us from doing the right diagnosis. Yeah, you look at that and go,

the rich guy was able to get private firefighters, and you go, okay. And I guarantee he's gonna be mayor. I think he's gonna run again for mayor. And people are like, oh, he needs to be our mayor, because look, he kept his mall. He solved the problem. That part of Cal State still looks good.

He's gonna say to you, you see I was able to do this? I'll do this for all of you. And that's how Trump won, by the way. That is exactly right. Trump won by saying, look at what I've done with my life. I will do this for your life. And then we go back there. Well, all right.

Thanks, y'all. That really was great. That gave me a lot to think about. Thank you. is Jess Hackl, Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?