What Now? with Trevor Noah - Revenge of the Tourists with Rajan Datar

Episode Date: September 19, 2024

Trevor and Christiana are joined by travel journalist Rajan Datar to tackle the perennial summer question around the world: what’s with all these tourists, anyway? Governments, water gun-toting Spaniards, and 10,000 Elsas weigh in. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Here's a fun tip for you, a simple one. This is Trevor's travel tip. Like, any like seven, eight hour trip or whatever, you can sleep in a chair. Buy yourself one of those, no, no, no, buy yourself one of those like head, eye mask, holder things that keeps your head up. I promise you now, I've done this multiple times. You sit in the chair, you lie back, you lock your head in. That's the key, because otherwise it screws up your neck.

It will be one of your best trips you've ever taken. Saves the man that has never flown with a four year old. Okay, yes, you see now, you've included, you've added terrorists to your equation. There's terrorists on the plane. Yes, I mean, my plan is when I have kids, I'm not going anywhere. That's my plan. Because I've seen people travel. This will be another episode.

Should parents be allowed to travel? Should children be allowed on planes? No, really! I always come through like that muffled speaker. Two options, we can always go and... Trevor, your copy-acting is so good! This is What Now with Trevor Noah. Trevor, your copy-acting is so good! This is What Now with Trevor Noah.

Hamburglar, why are you calling? Rubble, rubble! McDonald's has a new biggest burger called Big Arch, made with two 100% Canadian beef patties, a new delicious sauce, and all the McDonald's flavors you love, and wait, you want me to help you get it. Rubble.

Come on. Compared to beef burgers on McDonald's current menu at participating restaurants in Canada. What's up guys, it's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's up guys, it's your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you it's too good and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest. Okay, every episode I bring on a friend, I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on. So follow, watch and listen to baby, this is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever

you get your podcasts. Well, happy podcast day. Happy podcast day, Trevor. Ah, this is my favorite time of the year. I'm one of the few people who loads the summer. And for those people who are listening in the Southern hemisphere, I'm obviously speaking about the summer in the North, the North summer, because in the wintertime you have struggled during the middle of the year. No, yeah, I, I love this time of year because it's like, I think summer is too crazy. People are too wild. It's too hot. It's too I'm Goldilocks.

I like it. Just right. You know It's too... I'm Goldilocks. I like it just right. You know what it is for me? I'll watch... I'll watch white people, and it's predominantly white people. We always joke about this with like my friends from the Caribbean and stuff. White people will go out... As soon as the sun is at its peak, white people go outside and they just lie there.

They just... They just like... You know what I mean? They just like lie there and bake. And they rip off their tops. No tops. I love it. And they just lie there. They just, they just like, you know what I mean? They just like lie there. And they rip off their tops. And bake. No tops, I love it. And they just, they bake, they just bake. And then I've seen people putting on oil

and I'm like, wow, it's one thing to not fear cancer. It's another thing to invite it. Like you're just gonna put like cooking oil on your body. But yeah, I'm, you know, this is us. The summer is over. People are finally like calming down. Reality is coming back. And for most places in the world,

this is also when they experience a reprieve in tourism. And that's what today's episode is really about, tourism. Is it time to shut it down? And as I said that sentence, cities all over the world, many cities started cheering. Yeah, shut it down, travel, shut it down. Yes, shut it down. We need to shut it down. People are sick of tourism.

One of the craziest examples we witnessed this summer happened in Barcelona, Barcelona, Espana, where tourists who decided to spend their hard earned money to go have a romantic getaway in the beautiful Catalan city were met with what you can only describe as the most vicious, terrible, and yet funny protest ever. I don't know if you saw this. Did you see this on TikTok? I saw the video. Can you explain?

There were people sitting. So people were sitting in cafes. If you haven't seen it, you should go watch. People are sitting in little restaurants and little cafes on the side of the road. And I mean, all these protesters come and they're like, go back home, go back home, go back home. And I can only imagine you're sitting at the this little like restaurant. You're like, huh, I wonder who that's for. I wonder what that is about. You have no clue that this swarm of protesters is coming for you. And they arrive there and they pointed little water guns

and started spraying everybody in the face. Of all the ways I could be protested against, someone spraying me with a tiny little water gun is the most adorable form of protest. That shows we've lived in America too long. Because we're like, you know it could get a lot more intense. It won't be water guns, sweetheart. So we're like, this is so cute.

You're just like, wow, I bet some American tourists were like, oh my god, there are guns that have water in them? Oh my god. Wow, what a change. What a delightful change, honey. I told you Europe was special. Yeah, it was. So the story blew up all over the world and people were like, wait, what's going on? Why is this a big thing? And it was a big thing because, you know, the residents of Barcelona, including the city of Barcelona have said, we're done. We're sick of tourism.

We don't want this anymore. Everybody needs to go back to where they came from. Just stop it. And they want the only city. I mean, Amsterdam has said that they want to restrict how many people come to their city. Now they want to like lock it down. Um, places all over the world have basically said that this is like,

we just, we're done. Like actually in London, how do you guys feel about tourists? Because London's one of those places where people actually live in it. But it's packed. It's literally littered with tourists. I mean, depending on who you ask, fortunately, unfortunately, I grew up in South London.

No one comes there. It's a part of town, they're like, you may want to avoid. So it was only when I went to the center of town you'd see a lot of tourists, but it'd be weird for me to go to London and not see tourists. If they're like so, they're like the extra character. It's like watching Sex and the City and they're no longer in New York.

And hearing Amsterdam made me feel sad because I feel like going to Amsterdam is a right of passage for like a young person in Europe. That's literally what they don't want. They don't, they're sick of rite of passage for like a young person in Europe. That's literally what they don't want. They don't they're sick of your rites of passage. All you Europeans who want to go in rite of passage and smoke weed in the Netherlands they're like no. And go to the red light district just you know as a field trip. Like that makes me a bit sad. No they're just they're just done. They're just done. I'm excited because today we're also going to be chatting to somebody

who's an expert in tourism. We're talking to Rajan Deyta. He's not just somebody who's traveled extensively, but he actually, he works in this, he works for the BBC and, you know, travels the world, um, doing journalism in and around tourism. And what I, what I love about having this kind of job is that you, you don't get to occupy only one mindset. You have to think like the people who live locally, but then you also have to

think on behalf of the tourists and then you have the cap of journalist and documentarian and actually, actually Rajan, maybe you can tell me, like is in your travels, because I've seen some of some of your clips from your shows. I know you can't say this when you're on camera, but are there times when you've traveled and seen tourists in places and thought, I'm sick of these dicks, these are a bunch of assholes who should not be traveling through any of these places? Because I know you can't say that on the BBC. And you're assuming I can say it now, are you?

Well, listen, the only time I laugh at tourists, I was in Venice to do a documentary series about over-tourism, and you overhear tourists saying, without any irony, there are too many tourists here. People say that all the time, right? Yeah. And it's like as if they're different, as if they're special. There's a kind of status thing about tourists, don't you think? We look down on other tourists, but we're different.

We're travelers, as Anthony Bourdain, he would say, I'm a traveler, other people are tourists. Now I totally understand that, but are we allowed to be so smug about other people? Are we so different? I mean, I hate to say this, Trevor, but I do think that I am slightly different and you probably are as well. Yeah, so it's funny. I don't think of myself as a tourist. I find tourists have a certain herd mentality to the way they move.

If you've ever traveled to any part of Africa and watched a huge herd of wildebeest or just really pack animals, even cows. Let's just go with cows. Forget fancy animals that are in the wild. They just move in an aimlessly sheepish, it's just like,, and this is like, where are we going? Oh, we're all going in the same direction. Everyone has their fanny packs and everyone's taking pictures of the same thing and they're following the same predetermined path that everyone else would. And that for me is like a tourist. And do you know what epitomizes that? The selfie.

It's all about the selfie. It's all about getting the right selfie. Can I tell you a little story about Hallstatt in Austria? Oh yeah, for sure. Now, Hallstatt is this scenic little town, a picture postcard perfect little town. It's got the mountains behind the Alps. It's got a beautiful lake, gorgeous architecture. It's got less than 800 residents, but it's got 10,000 people at its peak coming a day.

She's more than an ad up to more than a million a year. They actually at one point, go back on that. Okay. So they have less than 800 residents and they have 10,000 people a day. Yep. And do you know why that is? It's all based on a slight myth that the town, the village is basically, you know, Arundel in Frozen?

There's this misconception that it's based on this town, Hallstatt in Austria. It's not. They think it's from Frozen. Lots of people think it's from Frozen. So they bring their daughters dressed up in princess dresses and stuff. It's very sweet, but the local residents are absolutely furious. And going back to the point of the selfie, they at one point tried to block off, fence off the most popular selfie spot to stop people going there.

But then the locals complained because they couldn't see the gorgeous view. If I lived in a town of less than 800 people, and one day I wake up and my town has 10,000 strangers, half of whom are dressed as Elsa, I would take the most extreme measures to counter this. I would basically become a Disney villain, essentially, now that I think about it. I would round up the townsfolk and I would say, we need to turn this place into a nudist colony for like six months. Because Disney doesn't do nudity. I think that's the only way you fight it, right? You just go like, all of us, we're going into the streets, dicks out.

I'm of the opposite view. I come in on the other side. I'm like, if you live in a town with 800 people, that's like the most boring place on the planet. And you get 10,000 new people to see every day. A day? I mean, towns with like 800 people, they just get into like opiates and incest. Oh. Like, nothing particularly. Oh, this is Austria.

This is Austria, not Cleveland. What are you talking about? I don't know. I'm just like, maybe it's the Londoner. And this is the problem. I'm such a city girl. I'm just like Austria, I'm not Cleveland. What are you talking about? I don't know. I'm just like, maybe it's the Londoner. And this is the problem. I'm such a city girl. I'm just like, more is better. No, more people's better, more traffic.

It means more money. It makes your town more interesting. The problem is a lot of them are little girls in princess dresses, and as the mother of a little girl, that sounds like my idea of personal hell. However, they bring their parents, they bring their grandmothers. Sounds better to me. Sounds like a better town. You're right about the money aspect. Obviously, it's a huge boon to the local economy. Apparently, only 22% of the people who live there actually work in the tourism economy. The rest of them don't. And when I spoke to the mayor, he said, yeah, it's great,

except we want half these people to come. We don't want, you I spoke to the mayor, he said, Yeah, it's great, except we want half these people to come. We don't want, you know, at the very most, we don't want this many, because they're walking in their back gardens, sometimes to take selfies, they're walking in the graveyard. Who are those kids? Those are the kids I want to meet. The kids who go to graveyards to take selfies dressed as Elsa from Frozen. That's my kind of kid. Yeah, it's day trippers. You know about this. They don't like day trippers because day trippers don't stay overnight. They don't buy meals. They don't put anything into the local economy and they just pack the streets. Scrubs. They don't want no scrubs. That's what it is. This is what it boils down to. you don't want scrubs. So help us understand though like

Is this is over tourism a new thing? Is this is this acutely blowing up because of kovat like did everyone stack up their money and now they're traveling or or are We just finding out about it now because of social media. It certainly started I suspect in the 90s night Some of the causes are for example Cheaper travel low-cost airlines transformed an awful lot. The internet transformed an awful lot because suddenly the world was globalized. You knew about new places.

And then the number of people who could afford to travel is also rising. Then when it comes to the pandemic, there was something after the pandemic called the called revenge tourism. That's what they labeled it revenge tourism. So people who've been somehow deprived by nasty people who invented this infection from traveling, they're going to get there, they'll come up and because now you're going to travel and not just travel like once a year, but travel three times a year just to make up for it because this year will be the highest number of travelers ever in the world, the most biggest year for tourism ever is this year. And that's happening.

That's a fact. Barcelona was an interesting one. You know, Roger, I don't know if you did any work around that because this was one of the stories that I feel like this year in particular, especially this summer as we look at it, it was the story that sort of brought this conversation to the fore in a not in an academic way. You know, like before whenever people would talk about over tourism, it would be like, you know, the Galapagos Islands have struggled for so long for each tourist one cubic meter of carbon monoxide and where is inflicted and you're like, I don't know what any of this means.

And Barcelona was the first place where the locals came out with concrete, you know, concrete ideas that they put out on social media. And I guess, you know, TikTok is the one new evolution. Tourists said, hey, you come here, you flood our restaurants, the restaurants raise the prices. So we can't eat there anymore. The food isn't even good anymore because now they're trying to cater to how many people they are. On top of that,

this was my quaint little street and now you flood to it because it is quaint and now you make it not quaint, but this is where I live. You know, and I, from the things that the locals were talking about, I won't lie. At first I was like, you guys are ungrateful, these are tourists. And then when they went through it, I was like, man, how would I feel if I lived somewhere? How would you feel if you lived somewhere? This is your home, your home home. People forget that. You go like, that's why I live here is because I don't want to be where this is happening

and now it's found me. That's exactly right. You know how I describe it? I say locals feel like extras in their own movie. They're basically pushed to the side. They can't afford to live there. So you get horrendous stories like in Ibiza about the chef who has to live in his own car, just so he can work in the restaurant. Obviously, locals are priced out because of the Airbnbs, the short-stayed rentals, all that contributes. And essentially, it is about, ultimately, about people, locals, and tourists competing over the same resources.

To me, that doesn't sound like an issue of tourism. That sounds like an issue of government, of a lack of rent controls, of a lack of social housing so a chef doesn't have to live in his cab, right? And it seems to me that like tourists, particularly American, Australian and British ones who are like the worst tourists if we're honest, become this easy scapegoat where you can say it's because of you guys that I have this problem. And I'm like, well, isn't it the mayor? Isn't this something your legislature should be dealing with? Because even if the tourists vanish, I don't believe the restaurants are going to bring down their prices. I don't believe the landlords are going to bring down their

rents. So you get where I'm coming from here, right? In fact, some people hate the word over tourism, because it seems to place the blame on tourists for being there to too many of them. No, overtourism is quite right. It's bad management. It's greed as well. It's basically saying, look, let's get as many people as we can in. Who cares about the consequences? If it turns into a theme park like the centre of Barcelona can be, so what? We're still making loads of money.

But there's another thing called leakage. Have you heard of leakage? Where most of the money in some places that a tourist will spend somewhere actually doesn't stay in that destination. Because the company quite often is a multinational corporate, could be an airline, whatever. So, you know, it's no win for the locals either, at all, for that reason. That's one of the, I would say that's probably one of the issues that people don't know about and don't think about is that as the world has become consolidated, the money doesn't stay in a city. So back in the day,

let's think of London or many places like it, even New York. If you were traveling around a bunch, you were in a taxi. And the taxi money went to people who had started taxi businesses in that city. The drivers lived in the city, the cars got serviced in the city, and the company, and it was even small, like pockets of companies, that's, you know, were in the city. So the money was within the place that you spent it. And then now, if you travel somewhere, you get there, you get an Uber from the airport, you get to the place, you stay in a hotel, and you stay in a chain that is owned by a global conglomerate that has now absorbed everything. And then you go out to eat, and then maybe you go and buy some McDonald's, or maybe, you know, your kids want to buy something that they're familiar with and they want Starbucks in other countries. They want Starbucks. There you go. Yeah, there's Starbucks in every

country. So everybody goes and gets some Starbucks. And then after that, people are like, oh, I need to get some, I didn't bring a top, let's pop into Zara. And before you realize it, all the money that you've spent, let's say you've spent $100, 100 pounds, 100 euros, 100 whatever currency in that day, you've spent it. You find like that money is no longer pumping up the local economy in the same way. And I wonder if that's like an insidious side of it that the locals and maybe the city officials don't even think about. Does that make sense? It's like this homogenization across cities.

Like, it's very rare I go to a city, unless it's Lagos, and you're like, this is an entirely unique place in the world, and I'll never experience something like that. I'm talking about these type of tourist hubs. I don't know, I just find that they all replicate each other and that leakage just doesn't affect where the money goes. Actually affects what you experience when you get there. When I was in Shoreditch, I was like, this is like Berlin.

You know, like kind of like, there's like, if you go to a coffee shop in certain neighborhoods. And I was like, oh, this also reminds me of downtown LA, and it's pretty much the same everywhere you go. That's quite popular. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. I mean, not to play the African mom in the group chat here, but like, if I was having this conversation with, I think, any of my African mothers, aunts, etc., a lot of them would also ask the question, sort of to what you were saying, Rajan, is they'd be like, but why were they advertising?

They told us we must come to Barcelona. They told us we must come. They are the ones we did not know about Barcelona before they told us. So now they are complaining, but you told us to come. Because it's true. It's like, I don't know about Marbella. I don't know about, you know, all these other, you, you advertise it. So, you know, all these other you you advertise it so, you know not to victim blame But I would say hang on though Just separates the the marketing teams if you like or the big advertisers the big commercial companies who you obviously yes Do sell the dream sell the idea come here You know the best time of your life with the locals who aren't necessarily

Part of that marketing machine who didn't necessarily do that They met I mean when I first went to Barcelona, for example, it was word of mouth, a friend of mine said, you've got to come here. It's really brilliant. You know, it's great. It's cool. Then it became a product that it became commoditized, fetishized, whatever you want to call it. It became, you know, I mean, something that everyone had to do.

And back to your point, Cristiano, it was never managed properly. It's been not properly regulated, essentially. And now it's a bit too late in some places and their very local culture and the fabric of the city or the destination is being damaged, undermined. Like I've seen this in South Africa, for instance. Yeah. I've seen how in some parts of South Africa, we've done an amazing job with our tourism in locking it into like the locals. So we go, here's a game reserve, here's a safari. You're going to come, you're going to see animals.

You're going to experience something you've never seen before. Like South Africa has some of the best tourism in the world. I know I'm biased, but it's true. And what some people have done really well is they've gone, this land belonged to people. This land is still occupied by people. And so what we're going to make sure is when you come and do your tourism, your tour guide is earning money because he's a local. The person who lives on this land is getting, they're getting some of your like tax because they're locals.

And so whenever they see you, they smile, not just because they're seeing a foreigner, they smile because they see somebody who's contributing to their quality of life. They smile because they see somebody who's leaving an indelible impression on them that goes beyond just like a temporary interaction. And then I've seen other places where that's not the case. I've seen places where you literally were once the kings of this land and now you've been relegated to basically being busboys for people who don't care about you and treat you like, you know, something just above a slave whose job it is to carry their bags and bring their food. Rajan, I'm really curious, is there anywhere you would say this is an example of well-managed tourism? There are. I mean,

unfortunately, they also tend to be quite expensive. So Copenhagen, have you heard of what's happening in Copenhagen? They are basically offering you rewards for being a good tourist. So if you clean up and tidy up and if you don't use plastic or something, anyway, if you behave well, you'll get a free coffee or maybe more. But how do they know this? Is this like a Danish guy following you around? Like how do they monitor my good tourism behavior? It's funny because I was just there.

I was just in Copenhagen doing shows. This was maybe like a month or two ago. I was there. Nobody gave me any rewards. I didn't make a mess. I think it's just started. I think it's literally just started. Where's the reward? It's called CopenhPay. Oh, right after I didn't make a mess. I think it's just started. I think it's literally just started. Where's the reward?

It's called cope and pay. Oh, right after I leave. Because you left. Cope and pay is what it's called. And they're doing something similar in Oslo as well. Yeah. It's funny you mentioned Oslo. I'm a TikTok addict.

And you know, when you're geo-located wherever you go, so I'm swiping and I got a come to Oslo ad. So I'm like, it's not that smart because I'm already here. But the entire ad was about there are no lines. You may running to the king. The food is great. It's relatively cheap. They were like selling Oslo to me and I'm like, oh, there are places that are

like would love the Barcelona problem. But it seems that like our tourists aren't dispersed in the right way. It's kind of, it's like lopsided. It's either they're all going to one place and they're ignoring other places that kind of desperately want them to come and do want that injection into their local economy. I think you're absolutely right. There is an interesting other side to this though, because part of the reason for this explosion in tourism is that there are new markets, okay, opening up. So for example, Chinese tourists, suddenly exploded, the numbers of them

suddenly exploded about 10, 15 years ago. And they became, I think, the biggest single traveling nation. Now India are doing that because again, you've got people who are newly kind of little bit money, they've got disposable income, they can now afford for the first time to travel. Now, if you're going all the way across to Europe, you can't really blame them for wanting

to go to see Venice and Paris, the Eiffel Tower, and then maybe Florence, maybe London, the usual suspects. I can't blame them. But now I think, oh, so now the Chinese and Indian got some money and we're like, don't come anymore. That makes me think it's the type of tourists, not the actual tourism. If we're saying it's just like people from the Far East now have a high disposable income, we're like, oh, close the barriers.

There's too many of you. I actually think therein lies one of our solutions. We should actually say that these places should shut down their tourism to all Europeans and to all people from Western countries because you've done it now. You've had your time. You've seen the thing. Now it is Africa's chance to come and see what was built with their resources. And it is India's turn to come and see what was built with their labor.

And it is China's turn to come and see what people use their technologies for. Because like, you know, it's one thing to be colonized, it's another thing to be colonized and then go and see and be like, oh, look at that. You're like, it wasn't so bad. Look what they did with our gold. Oh, look at that church. Ah, my great grandfather was enslaved, but look at the craftsmanship. Ah, ah, ah, what a beautiful, beautiful thing. There is a silver lining to every cloud. Can I ask you, each of you, where do you think it does actually work? It's respectful to the locals, it's

a really distinctive, interesting experience, and it feels like the balance is right. Huh, okay, so where do I think they've got it right? I think Tokyo might be one of the best because the city is designed in such a way, it's designed to contain a large amount of people. But even then, they've really managed to find a way to keep Japan being Japan in those parts and still have a ton of tourists at the same time. Yeah. So if you'd asked me this question five years ago, I would have said without a doubt Accra.

me this question five years ago, I would have said without a doubt, Accra. It's kind of the, it's like, I think it's the home of the global black diaspora. You can see the historic with the door of no return. You've got great hotels, lovely people. The food is amazing. But you know, that This is, this is, can you, before you carry on, can I, can I just pause? Sorry, I thought it was an earthquake, but it was a Nigerian complimenting planet. I know, I know. Wow. I'm going to get, I'm going to get cancelled by my people and my family. That was a, for a moment I was just like, I was like, is there another Accra that I

don't know about? I know. I would say Accra, like one of the most wonderful places on earth. However, because of the president and lots of initiatives, there's a thing called Dirty December, which is every Christmas, people from across the diaspora land on Accra. And what it's done for the locals is meant

braiding your hair is super expensive, food is super expensive. They're being pushed further out. My perspective is someone that does it really well is Sydney. And it just is like, it never seems that busy. However, I think it's because it's so far. There's kind of like a cap to the number of people who are going to make that journey. Also, I've got to say, if you make an effort and you go there and you talk to the local

people, you talk to the right place, you do a little bit of research beforehand, you will find amazing things in every single destination in the world. Because a lot of it is about people and how you approach people and how you prepare for your trip. You shouldn't look at a trip or holiday as a transaction, as a consumer transaction. It's going to be more than that, if you like. Don't just go there for the quick thrill. Go there, in a sense, almost in a kind of Buddhist sense, with the whole sense of feeling that you're lucky to be there. It's gratitude. You're a guest in their country, in their culture, in their... And I know it does annoy me sometimes when people think, well, I'll just go there and I'm expecting

some amazing things to happen to me, passively. You've got to make it work. You've got to be proactive. Rajan, I love that idea as like a very noble and virtuous thing to go into traveling with. I think the difficulty for me, and I just speak as a millennial, is that often how I pick a place, I'm such a basic me, and I just speak as a millennial, is that often how I pick a place, I'm such a basic bitch, is social media. It's because there's like a travel influencer or a friend I followed, and it's like a really

nice hotel, and the pool is good, and they go to another restaurant, and they take a picture of the food, and I'm like, the food looks good. So I'm going into it expecting to be titillated, because I have a hard life. I've got kids. I work really hard. Give me pleasure. Like, I don't want gratitude. I want just like pleasure and to feel a bit tipsy. Like, like I think because lives are so hard and most people are traveling to escape and they want to feel really good and between social media and that, that kind of really clashes with this idea of this kind of very Buddhist and virtuous gratitude, I want to respect your country because it's like we do go to take unfortunately and I'm speaking for myself here.

No, the one exception I would tend to make for that rule that I just, well that kind of attitude I just gave was if you have a young family. I don't blame you if you've got a young family for going to an all-inclusive hotel in Marbella, where would you want to go? And just stay in the hotel, don't go out, the kids are happy, they're playing in their swimming clubs and whatever they do, and you can actually relax. I get that. I get that. I've been there. So yes, this is possibly for somebody who's got a little bit more time, because time is a big thing here, to do to take this attitude and to be like this.

So where do you think the responsibility lies then? Do you think, you know, when you hear stories, like let's say in Bali, for instance, you know, Bali has become one of the most popular destinations for remote workers now, which is a new type of tourism, where people aren't just popping in for a day, people aren't staying for a week. They're sort of living there, but only for the periods of time that they need to live there. So you see people becoming these,

what do they call them? Digital nomads, right? That's what they call people now since the pandemic. And so now people go, hey, I live in Bali for six months of the year. I do my regular job. I earn my income from my own country. since the pandemic. And so now people go, hey, I live in Bali for six months of the year. I do my regular job. I earn my income from my own country.

And I'm basically living like a king in Bali because I earn in a foreign currency. And then the locals in Bali say, hey, we like some of this, but you know, like now housing is slowly starting to creep on us and locals can't afford to live anywhere near to where they work or where they live their lives. And then some of the people are even complaining about like the tourist part of it. They go, all our temples have turned into attractions. It's like we live in Disneyland.

This is where I actually pray. Like I actually, actually pray. And you're coming in here being like, oh, can you take another one? My chin looks fat in that one. Do you think we should be pushing tourists to be more conscientious? Or should the locals or these countries be saying, hey, this is what you are allowed or not allowed to do when you come to our country and this is how it should or shouldn't be? Well, I think that there are two sides to this. The first one is what you said. Yes, quite.

We have personal responsibility. But the other side of it is definitely, you know, the locals should be saying and the government, local government locals should be saying, and the government, local government there should be saying, these are the rules. I mean, Amsterdam is eventually doing that now. So don't come here, you Brits on stag nights and do what you do. Don't come here. You know, that's it.

I think there's other things that local authorities can do, like stopping cars from coming into the city center, reduce parking, use much more public transport so that people have to come in through with buses or trains, which is healthier for the ecosystem and everything like that. So there are methods doing and the ultimate one is if it's actually worse for locals to live there, there's something wrong. It's a really complicated one because I don't know who the quote-unquote asshole actually is. Yeah. There's just this inherent tension,

inherent tension in traveling that you really can't avoid, because wherever you're going to is somebody's home, and homes have rules. You know, there's some homes that's like, take your shoes off at the door, and you're like, but I don't want to take off my shoes. But they're like, no, take your shoes off at the door. And it's this delicate dance,

and I don't think we've got it right, because I think the issue is that most people, the tourists have the upper hand because they have the capital. For the most part, if you can travel, it's because you have disposable income. Sure, there are people they save up for a long time, but most people are pretty affluent,

they've got a lot of money, and they wanna throw it around. You know, I'm myself, like, I like, I want to buy this bag in Paris, even though there's a store down the road in LA. But you're like, no, I want this. I want the experience of like a Parisian sales associate who's going to be rude to me. However, I bought this bag at the original store. Right.

So tourists, we come with a certain entitlement, attitude, and amount of money. And I don't see most tourists bending and being like, oh, we're going to modify ourselves to the local rules, because that's not what you go away for, is it? Maybe, okay, maybe, maybe I have a pitch because, you know, Christiana had this on one of our previous episodes. It was like, we have these fun episodes, If I Ruled the World, and it's really just like thought experiments. And Christiana's one was, which was unanimously voted on, which never happened. Everyone agreed with her. And the idea was everyone should have to travel. It's mandatory. Your governments sponsor it all around the world. It's like

free. You have to go somewhere. And the reason behind it was if you don't travel, you will always have a limited view of the world. And it's like, you know, then how do we find that balance? Because on the one hand, we're saying to people, hey, travel, don't be ignorant, go and see another way of living. And then when you get there, those people are like, go back to where you came from. Leave us alone. We don't see our way of living.

It's like, so how do we balance that? I would say, I would say try and be a conscious traveler. Act like somebody you would act like in your own personal space with your friends and your neighborhood. But I would actually argue what you're saying might actually be the problem. I would argue the problem in Amsterdam is the fact that the English tourists who come

there are acting English. And I mean this truly, like, I think people are going to places being themselves. We were taught the opposite thing. And that is, when you go to somebody's house, you do whatever they're doing. Like, I grew up in a Christian family. But whenever I'd go visit my friend's house and they were Muslim, or they were Hindu, or they were Buddhist, or whatever it was, my mom would say to me, when they pray, you put your head down and you pray with them. And I was like, but mom, we hate Buddhists. And she'd be like,

but you're in their house and they're praying. And she'd go like, this is not the time for that. You respect their culture. And if they pray like this, you pray. And when they burn incense, you also going to burn incense with them. And I was like, but mom, we pray, and when they burn incense, you also gonna burn incense with them. And I was like, but mom, we are in an existential war against these people. The Lord has commanded us. I was very religious when I was young. I was like, we're gonna ride the chariots of Jericho

and burn everybody else who's not Christian. But my mom, despite being as religious as I was at this time, my mother would say to me, no, when you go there, you are in somebody else's house. Your job is to adapt as quickly as possible. And so I wonder if the solution is the other way around is to say to people, maybe it's you know, like you do driving tests, maybe you should have to do tourist tests before you travel.

So you go, I'm traveling to Japan. And then they go, before you come to Japan, here's a little test you have to perform. Um, if you are in a restaurant and your friend tells you something funny, do you A, laugh, do you B, laugh and then say something back? Do you C, nod your head silently and ignore it? Or do you D, not go to a restaurant with a friend, you should travel everywhere alone because it's rude to be with other people in a restaurant because it makes more noise and then if you pick D or C The Japanese are like, okay, you can come in because we don't want people laughing in restaurants

We don't want people being loud in restaurants. So please you know, I mean, maybe maybe that's the solution We test people before they go to countries and the country you have to assimilate to what the country wants before you're allowed to Be a tourist there Do you know what there is a country a little bit like that, which is Bhutan I've been to Bhutan. Tell me isn't there an element there of respecting local traditions and so Yeah, so you see Bhutan is one of the more interesting examples in the world because Bhutan is a country that exists in In one of the most precarious positions, right? You have a country that witnessed like every country around it sort of get taken over

by a larger power. And Bhutan exists in the space where it's like we want to remain Bhutan. They've said, look, we understand that there are many benefits to tourism. We understand that there are many benefits to globalization and expanding. But they said, but also we understand that this tap that you open of tourism is very difficult to close once it's open. And so what we're going to do is we're slowly going to open the tap and start with a drop, go to a drizzle and then see where we go from there before this thing just turns into a fire hose. And so it means you have a country that's like trapped in time, which ironically makes it the darling of many people who go there, you know?

Especially white people. White people love that shit. Let me tell you something now. White people are like, oh my God, I wish everywhere was like this. But what also happens in that scenario is that the reason those westerners, by the way, partly love Bhutan is because it's exclusive. It's like they're special, they're different as well to go there. They can afford those quite expensive taxes to go there. Not many other people go there. And in their defense, I'm not even saying they're assholes. The thing that they're appreciating is the very same thing that many Bhutanese people wish to move on from. The

people of Bhutan are like, yeah, but I wish there was a mall. So I think there's like a, you know, there's a tough balance there in like, how do you lock it down? Because I think it's a lot harder for a place like Bhutan, you know, to recover from what happens in Barcelona. Barcelona's, you know, they're Barcelona. It's what, 12% of their GDP, you know? So, Barcelona can fight against tourism and be like, ah, we'll figure this thing out. But if a place like Bhutan lets everybody in, their GDP can quickly become all tourism and then they may be like addicted to the, you know, to the drug that they've taken a sip of. We'll be right back after this.

Maybe this is another question. Do people have the right to be tourists? Because sometimes we make it seem like a right, you know? And I know I know it it's a risky thing to say because, well, A, I know I can afford to go anywhere. So I know it's risky, but should everybody have the right to travel? So even when we say, oh, but it's so hard for people to go to Antarctica. Then I was like, yeah, should everybody have the right? I believe in the right to travel. I believe we're global citizens. This is where I've become a bit woo and crazy.. Oh goodness. Oh goodness. Here we go. I really do believe in that thing about I wish every citizen of the world had the opportunity and was funded by their government to go somewhere else because it just also means you look at home differently. Yes, but I'm saying

should you have the right to go everywhere? Yeah, but my view is that like why? I'm a product of colonization, right? And I'm just like so now we're saying the worst kind of Worst kind of travel that was that was the original over tourism where they really took it too far I think Starting with Barcelona was crazy because I'm like look a lot of people speak Spanish They shouldn't be speaking Spanish like, look, a lot of people speak Spanish that shouldn't be speaking Spanish. And it's because of a certain type of over-tourism and overstaying your welcome. But like my, my view honestly, is that I think traveling is a right in a world where we are so close up and borders have become so fraught and people are at war

with each other for different reasons. I do think that there is even like a spiritual pursuit of travel. Like I think it makes the spirit better. And I think that should be anything that makes humans better should be a right, in my opinion. I mean, I think the issue is that there's this fine line between the right to Rome, if you like, the right to travel freely, as we all should be able to, but compared to a right to a holiday, or a right to go somewhere, is that the same as the right to shelter, the right to water, the right to whatever? It's not on the same scale, is it? It's different.

No, I think, yeah, it's kind of like Maslow's hierarchy. It's somewhere like, it's very high brow and up on the top, but I honestly think travel has been the thing that has made my life so much better. I do think it make other people's life. Even if it's like you go to another country and you're like, my home is the best place on earth, I'm never leaving again. I think that's a valuable thing to experience. I think for most people and most travelers,

it's an issue of literally, I can get to Paris, I can get to Venice, and Barcelona, I of literally, I can get to Paris, I can get to Venice, I can in Barcelona, I can see the things I want to see and they will just go there in herds as Trevor was saying earlier. It's mass tourism. Don't forget people in Barcelona, thousands are being, and all these places are being disgorged from cruise liners coming into the city, all going to see Ramblas or Sagrada Familia or

whatever it is, they will go to the places that's the most obvious. So the Anthony Bourdain, trendy cool types who want to see the other bits, they may set a fashion which in 10, 20 years may lead to more people going to somewhere. But I think on the whole, you know, we may laugh at them, but they are doing a good thing because they're doing what's called dispersal. They're spreading people out and taking them to new areas. They're the minority, like the hipsters, backpackers. Backpackers, by the way, I'm a big fan of. There's this whole saying in the new thing is value, not volume. A lot of the money that backpackers spend goes into the local economy

because they use the smaller shops. They don't buy and spend, stay in big hotels. Yeah, they use like the laundry around the corner. Exactly. They go to a local hostel. Absolutely. And they travel by public transport quite a lot as well, which is also healthier for the local environment. So yeah, it's a quandary about, you know, how you traffic this, how you try and guide people to certain places. Okay, I have a pitch. I have a pitch. And Rajan, I want to see if you like this, because you are learned and you are fair, unlike myself. What about this for a pitch? Why don't we make it a lottery system worldwide and not everybody

can go to the country they want to go to. It's like ranked choice voting. So you're going to put all the countries you want to go to, it's going to put you into a system and then it'll be like, yep, you have been given access to Japan. Oh, actually, no, you, sorry, you haven't been successful for Japan. You can visit Rwanda or, nope, you didn't get Rwanda. You can't see the gorillas. You're going to get access to, you know what I mean, like Mauritius, the Maldives. Because then it'll alleviate everyone going to the same place at the same time. And you go, everyone in the world has to have travel visas, but it's a lottery system.

And we basically like spread the people out randomly and like, you know what I mean? Yeah. What about that? 80% of people go to only 10% of the world's destinations. So that's, that would change that for a start off. The other thing is there are a few of us and that probably includes us three who are traveling way more than your average person in the world. Don't forget, half the world at least has never been outside their country.

Here's two things to that. One, I asked once on a flight, I was really annoyed and I asked the flight attendant, this very nicely though, I said to them, I was like, hey, don't you think it's time that we retire the safety briefing? I think people know how to fasten seat belts now. And I think everybody knows how the masks work. And like, let's, we don't need this thing. And she said something to me that was fascinating, which was true. She said, actually, you'll be shocked to find that most people who are traveling, especially on international flights, have not flown before or are flying for the first time. Like you'll be

shocked at how many of those people are actually experiencing this thing, you know, in a novel way. But the second thing, this is just a fun fact as an aside, the 10, 20% rule applies to everything. I don't know if you know this. So the same way you go like travel, let's say 10% of the people or 20% of the people are responsible for like 70, 80% of the travel. It's the same for ice cream. It's the same for candy. It's the same for clothing. No, I'm being serious.

It's exactly the same. Uh, 20% 80% of the ice cream in the world is purchased by 20% of the people. Um, 80% of the fashion in the world is purchased by 20% of the people. 80 it's a, it's a really weird rule, but like people over buy, they over, like, you will be shocked. If you like anything and you buy a lot of it, you are part of the reason the industry like still exists. Everyone else just samples it. So I guess tourism is the same.

Now this makes me side with the people in Barcelona who were doing the booing, because it's just like, these are people that travel everywhere and make everywhere bad so maybe you should like spray them with water pistols. It's like oh now it's like oh it's the privileged elite right? It's not somebody that that's the first time ever they've got on a plane or been able to visit Barcelona. This is probably someone that's been to Madrid, who's been to London, who's been to Hong Kong, who's been to Tokyo.

This is what they do. So yeah let's spray them with water pistols. Also your way Trevor, actually it's a lot fairer in the sense that as well, is that, because otherwise what we're going to have is basically people are going to be outpriced. In other words, only the very rich will be able to go to certain places. And this avoids that issue. I totally agree with you in that sense. Yeah, it's a great idea.

I like this idea. We just, we just, we just thought a world lottery. And you know what? I think my idea would work. And you know, ironically, what will be the downfall is there's going to be one country that doesn't want to participate because they're going to get greedy and they won't be part of the lottery. And they'll want more and they'll get more people because they won't be part of it. And then other countries will back out and then we'll be back to Barcelona being overcrowded. Trevor, this is a difference between the South African and Nigerian because my mind went to, no, you bribe to win the place that you won on the lottery.

Oh my goodness. I was like, that's going to be the problem. People are bribing so they get Bhutan instead of Rwanda. Oh wow. Oh wow. Well, Rajan, thank you so much, man. I really, really appreciate it. Absolutely a pleasure.

Thank you so much for joining us. Lovely talking to you both. Thank you, Rajan, thank you so much, man. I really, really appreciate you. Absolutely. Pleasure. Lovely talking to you both. Thank you, Rajan. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jodie Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, Mixing and Mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now? The End.