What Now? with Trevor Noah - The Trump Assassination Attempt: What Now?

Episode Date: July 18, 2024

Trevor and Christiana are joined by Jody Avirgan, one of What Now?’s Executive Producers. In the wake of the July 13th assassination attempt on Donald Trump, they discuss people’s fascination with how the event “moves the plot forward,” the impact of the media’s need to feed the 24-hour news cycle with “developing story” updates (both accurate and inaccurate), and whether the greater issue at stake is actually America’s self-image and a failure to learn from historic moments. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Imagine going to a restaurant where they don't give you the meal, they just keep giving you like one ingredient as you're sitting at the table. And so when you sit down, you're like, oh, I'm having rice. Oh, no, wait, wait, I'm having a rice stew. Oh, no, wait, I'm having a rice stew with beef. Oh, no, wait, I'm having a rice stew with beef and also some chili. Oh, no, wait, I'm having a rice stew. That's exactly what they do with the news.

You're listening to What Now? The podcast where I chat to interesting people about the conversations taking over our world. This week, we're talking about the story that has been on everyone's minds. The assassination attempt against Donald Trump. And now, we're here asking, will this change the way Americans vote? Will this change Donald J. Trump? And will America learn from its past or just continue the story of American exceptionalism? Now the only thing I love more than peeling back the layers of a story is doing it with my favorite

thinkers. So once again I'm joined by writer, journalist and professional hater Cristian Ambaco Medina and one of WhatNow's very own executive producers Jodie Avigan. Do we want a game plan? I am recording on my side. This is WhatNow with Trevor Noah. At Radiolab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry. But, but, we do also like to get into other kinds of stories. Stories about policing or politics, country music, hockey, sex of bugs. Regardless of whether we're looking at

science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers. And hopefully make you see the world anew. Radio Lab, adventures on the edge of what we think we know. Wherever you get your podcasts. Happy podcast day everybody. Happy podcast day. Happy podcast day. This is this is a this is a fun one yeah there's a there's an extra voice joining us. We've got a Jodie who's usually running the back end of everything. I don't even know what you do, Jodie. I think you just have a bigger computer than me. Yeah, I like to keep it that way. An air of mystery.

This is fun having you on. Christiana, how are you? I'm hanging in there. Got back from London. I hate British Airways. Just want to shout them out. They lost my buggy, but they got it back to me. But everything's good. Everything's good. Oh, nice. Nice. Everyone. Everyone back in the look at all of us. We all came back to the United States at the most one of the most interesting times to come back to the United States. Let me ask you a question. Where were you when the shooting happened? I was where I always am in my house with my kids. I'm never doing anything guys. I have the most boring life.

Trevor, I believe I was texting with you around that moment, but I don't know. I may have broken the news to you or at least said something like, hey, are you seeing this Trump news? And then you, I think, responded with, oh God, this is bad, this is bad, this is bad, or some version of that. Literally, it's funny, the two people I was speaking to about when, I was speaking to you, like,

literally around when it happened. And I was speaking to Josh. It was so crazy that, you know, like all the people I was talking to are the people that I speak to around the podcast and the conversations we have. So in an assassination attempt, the first thing everybody said was,

huh, Trump's gonna win. Hmm, he's gonna win now. In most places in the world, when a well-known figure, who yes, is political, is the subject of an attempted assassination, the first thought in most people's heads wouldn't be about the politics. The first thing people would think about is the human being. Oh no, how hurt is the person?

Was somebody else shot next to them? Who was shooting? Is everyone okay? It was amazing to me how the shooting happened. There's a picture of Trump like he's grazed by the glass, I guess from the bullet fragment flying or whatever it was. And a lot of people their first reaction was, oh, well, now he's definitely going to win. And I was like, damn. So is everything, is everything in America now about politics? That's what I found myself wondering.

Um, like even coming into this, this, this podcast was like, is, is this the end of America, not in, not in like a doom and gloom way, but can a country function in a meaningful way if everything in that country is always reduced to its politics. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But I say my observations as an outsider, I think it's because violence is so ambient in America. But I think, and I say this as a mother of a young son, I think this is a deeper story about disaffected young men. And I think they normally hurt women, but this one hurt one of the most powerful men in the world. I think to me that's the biggest story. I'm like, how was this kid

in his parents' house and they missed that he was going to try and kill a former president? And that's kind of been lost, you know, mental health and young men. I think that to me is a more concerning thing because I think there are a lot of young men like the killer and perhaps they will not harm a presidential candidate, but I think they're going to harm the people around them. Hmm. Oh, damn. Like, America's had other presidents assassinated.

It's had other recent attempted assassinations. I think Obama had like a bomb intercepted to his house in like 2018. So it's just like, I think violence and America are hand in hand. So that wasn't like the peculiar thing about it. I think for most Americans, the peculiarity is that it actually happened in an election year. Because I think with Reagan, it happened like three years before he was running. And so it was just like, well, there are some sort of stakes

and America is a country that just runs on plot and vibes. So people are like, what does this do to the plot? So I just think they were just like business as usual and the business right now is an election. But your notion of it as what does this do for the plot? I mean, gets at the way that we've turned politics into this kind of spectacle and reality show. And so this lands as like a plot twist, right?

And it's like, OK, now what? What does it mean? As opposed to asking these more fundamental questions that you're getting at, Trevor. But I mean, I'm curious for the two of you, like, since you don't have to cover the election day to day, do you get the space to think about what this really means at a bigger level and not immediately have to go to, okay, what

does this mean for the next plot point? When I was watching the news coverage on this, I realized that we are deep in the depths of experiencing every single symptom of having 24 hour news. Like when I was growing up, I don't know about you. We used to see the news when the news came on, right? Uh, it was, it was both concise and broad at the same time. They, they did their research. They covered things.

I don't know if you tried to watch the news when this was happening. they covered things. I don't know if you tried to watch the news when this was happening. These people planted the seed for every single conspiracy theory you can imagine. I mean every single conspiracy theory. And I go, how do you expect a country to interact with their reality when their reality is constantly being shaped in like micro moments and changes, you know, it's Somebody he was shot. There were multiple shooters. There were five shooters. There was two shoot There was one shooter it goes back the Secret Service saw him. They didn't see him The police were with him. They weren't with him and I was just going like like what do you think? This is gonna this is gonna lead to

Other than chaos that's to be honest with you. That's probably my The thing I'm enjoying most now is that in my life, I get to just pause for a moment to think before having to do or say. that luxury because after an event like this, the thing that people need the least is speculation and conspiracy. It doesn't make the situation any better. All it does is leave people in a space where like a week later you have every single idea about the shooting out there. The government did it, Biden did it, Trump did it to himself. I felt that, like, just journalistically, the news did the best job it could possibly give given it's like an ever-changing situation. What I found exhausting was the analysis machine. And I think Trevor, that's what you're talking about more, like the hot take machine that seems to be part of the media universe right now.

That's exactly what I mean. Like the news was just like I was watching Anderson Cooper was like it's developing and then every time they would get something that was verified I think CNN everyone's verification was very good on this. Yeah but I'm saying even the developing is not necessary. We've been lulled into this idea that we need to see news developing and we don't. I would object, I would say this is like a former journalist. No, you don't, I'll be honest with you. This is where maybe like we'll fight with a bunch of people and maybe we'll disagree.

Surely this is a big enough story, Trevor, no? Jodie, it doesn't change your life. It doesn't affect your world. Again, I'm not saying like now you can undo the news, maybe I'll save that for one of our episodes of If I can undo the news, you know, maybe I'll save that for for one of our episodes of if I ruled the world but like I just I just I don't think that it helps anybody because here's the problem if it's always developing It means that you leave each viewer and each listener at a different state or in a different place of knowing or not knowing, because that's what they got at that time.

As opposed to just saying, hey, this has happened, we'll let you know when we have concrete details. Look, Trevor, I feel like what you're getting at, and I completely agree, is that cable news is built to take every story and make it feel as big as something like this, right? It dials everything up to an 11.

But then, so that way, but then some stories are an 11 and this, it was an 11, but because everything has been flattened at that height, it's hard to kind of know what's real, what's not and so forth. But I mean, this feels like, you know, top five stories that we've lived through. This kind of rises to that bar, no? But actually, to Trevor's point, because of the nature of the American-US news cycle in this country, there's just so much plot in this country,

it's hard to keep up. The half-life of stories is so short that this story already feels almost old, because like... Yes, it does. He's got the patch on his hair. He looks like a gangster, by the way. You know what I mean? It's just like, oh, it does. He's got the patch on his air. He looks like a gangster, by the way. You know what I mean?

It's just like, oh, he's recovering pretty well. He's picked a VP pick and we're discussing JD Vance now more than the fact that Trump got shot out. Yeah. I think, you know, um, to, to your point, Jodie, I'm not saying the thing isn't an 11, but I'm saying, you know, when, when we think about the purpose of news, I would assume, and now it's a business, but the purpose of news should be to inform people. If you were flying in a plane and a pilot told you about every micro moment of what

he was possibly experiencing, that would not be a comfortable flight. That's my dream flight. I love information, Trevor. I'm so anxious. I wanna know, what did that fuck mean? Are we gonna die? I'm like, why is the pilot not speaking to us? Oh wow, yeah, no.

Okay, so I'll give you guys a story. I was on a flight once and it was a small plane and we were flying back from, I think it was like New Hampshire or one of these places. And we were in a storm and it's one of those flights where you pray to every God you've ever thought existed and you lament every mistake you've made, you atone for every sin you've ever even considered in your life. And this plane, I mean, we shook for at least 20 odd minutes, which was a long time in that kind of weather. We land, we're fine. And when we're disembarking, I stop and I asked the pilots, I say,

Hey, um, how bad was that? And the pilot said, I'm going to be honest with you. For a second, I thought it might be over for us. The events still happened, Jodie. This is what I'm saying. Nothing changed in my life. But what the pilot prevented me from experiencing was the up and down of him developing in the, imagine him saying mid flight, I think it's over.

I don't know if we're gonna make it. Okay, maybe we are gonna make it. It's gotten really bad, the wings, the strain on the wings. Okay, guys, I think I've got this thing. Oh, we're all gonna die, call your families. Actually, no, I think I'm gonna say, that's not necessary. And I get what you're saying.

It is developing, it is factual. These are things that are being verified. but for the passengers, and that's what people are in a society, that's what people are in a, in a, in a country. You are the passengers. And so to the point that you're making, you then walk out on the other side with people who are more terrified than they should be less terrified than they should be, you know, because now when the plane lands, some people walk off going like, ah, just another day in the air.

And you're like, no, no, this is one of the craziest things that's ever happened. A former president of the United States in an election year, a few months away from an election was almost assassinated. It is not another day. Yeah. But Trevor, can I say that most people are like me. They're like, give me the information. They actually don't care if it's wrong.

That's the dangerous thing. They just want to be satiated. They want information. I hear you. Even someone like myself, who I consider myself quite informed and measured, I'm like, okay, did Trump get his shoes? It's like, where's my shoes? Which I love.

That was amazing. Can I just say, can I just say? Best thing about him, so relatable. He was just like, I's my shoes? Which I love. That was amazing. Can I just say, can I just say. Best thing about him, so relatable. He was just like, I need my shoes. Give me my shoes. I was like to my friend, did Trump get his shoes?

No, you know what I mean? But it's just like, it's such a stupid little detail, but like you just fixate on something and you want, there's an information vacuum. And I think the media just plays to our lowest selves. Like, and I admit that's my lowest to our lowest selves like and I admit that's my lowest self who just like wants to know if Trump has issues you know where was Melania? This you know you're about to start another conspiracy

theory which can we just talk about that for a second how how is it that everything is conspiracy now and I mean what I mean by everything is conspiracy now. And I mean, what I mean by everything is, I don't remember living in another time or another time in my life when everything was conspiracy. Like every, and I mean everything, you know, even if you take a step away from this Trump, like coronavirus, everything was conspiracy. You know, the election, everything is conspiracy. In this shooting, I know people personally who think that Trump did this himself. He set this up because he wanted to show that he's stronger than Biden.

That's what I know some people have said. I know some people who believe that this was the Secret Service doing this to Trump to stop him. I know people who think that this was Joe Biden and the deep state coming for Trump because they realize it's inevitable that he wins. Do you think Biden could remember to order an assassination attempt? I just think he would forget. Oh, Christian.

What a scary world to live in where everybody's witnessing the same thing and nobody believes it from every angle. Nobody believes it. That my friends scares me. Trevor, I'll just point out, it is in the same environment that you highlighted earlier where there's more news than ever and yet somehow less certainty than ever. That I think is the real toxic moment we've reached to where it's just like we're swimming in information

but it's been degraded to a point where no one knows what's real or can sort of actively choose to believe anything and believe nothing at the same time. But did you, to me at least, this specific incident, the conspiracy theories coming out of them just didn't feel like they had the juice. Like I just felt like people were going through the motions

of doing the conspiracy theory thing, which is a problem in and of itself. But I felt like a lot of those just kind of got dispensed with pretty quick. Well, Jodie, I will say what kind of concerns me is how many of my same friends think it was staged. Really? Still?

Yeah, like people are still lingering with that? Yeah, that was kind of what I'm with Trevor. I was like, hey, wait, you're my smart friend. You're the person that got me to do the vaccine. What do you mean you think it was state? And what's behind that? I think it just feels so surreal. Perhaps, maybe that's it, Trevor.

Can I also, okay, now here's something that I'm gonna throw in as well. Sometimes in a moment, you're experiencing the culmination of many small events that have led to this moment. It does not help Donald Trump's cause that he's the same guy who held a press conference with his tax returns that were stacked like little skyscrapers on a table and it was all blank pieces of paper. Those are actually how he files his taxes, Trevor. Just blank pieces of paper.

I mean, I touche my friend actually. Yeah, it doesn't help that Donald Trump is the same guy who held a press conference when Hillary was like winning in you know, in one of her primaries and he had Trump Stakes and Trump Water and Trump, and none of it was actually Trump Stakes or Trump Water or any of it. He had taken stuff and just put a Trump label on it. I'm not saying that he wasn't shot at. I'm not saying, but I'm saying that like Trump also plays into the theater of things.

You've watched a magician do a thousand tricks. Yeah. Why would you not think this is a thousand and one? I get where these people are coming from, even though I don't agree with it. I get where they're coming from. No, I will also point out that next week, the two of you are having a conversation with a disinformation expert who I think will be able to pick up a lot of these ideas. But yes, like we've reached this point where no one knows what to believe.

And I would say that is actually the project of disinformation, misinformation, is to completely destabilize what you think is true rather than sort of plant a specific wrong idea in someone's head. And so, I mean, I'm just curious for the two of you, if you feel like there's a way to unwind any of that and whether a moment like this, which brings out all the conspiracy theories, I'm curious for the two of you, if you feel like there's a way to unwind any of that,

and whether a moment like this, which brings out all the conspiracy theories, in theory, could it be a moment? I'm not even believing this as I ask this, but in theory, could it be a moment where people kind of take it all? Why am I asking this question? You were doing so well, Jodie. You were trying. I'm trying.

It was admirable watching you, actually. You were... Well, you know, when Joe Biden says lower the temperature, gosh, there's still that part of me that says maybe we can. If you had asked me this like a year ago, I probably would have given you a different answer. But now we're in like an AI world. Because funny enough, that was one of my immediate thoughts

when people were sending me, you know, the photo with the blight and he's got the fist up. I was like, oh, this must be in. Cause it was such a great shot. Pun unintended. I was like, there's no way that like, this is real. I was like, this must be the AI version of the thing that happened. And then people were telling me, no, it's real.

It's like an AP verified image. Now we're in this world of AI. I just don't see how we put the genie back in the bottle because it's like so much that is true feels like disinformation and disinformation looks like the truth. You know it's interesting Jodie, I don't know if I'm going to answer your question or maybe I'll ask a question back to you, does it matter? And here's what I mean by that. This event, I'm going to be honest with you, I don't think it shifted anyone in any direction. This is a crazy statement. I know I'm making a crazy statement, but I don't think it shifted anyone in.

I know some people go like, ah, Trump's definitely going to win. And I'm like, okay, who's going to... They're like, oh, well, Elon Musk, he now came out and he said, please, Elon Musk was a closet Trump supported the whole time and he wasn't even doing a good job of like hiding in that closet. Elon was like, I will remain neutral and I will no longer participate in the, yeah, but we all knew, Elon. We all knew, you know what I mean? Quacks like a duck, walks like a duck. Come on, Elon. So the question I ask is like, does it matter? Like in terms of elections, I think election, the activities matter, the, you know, what's happening matters, but even with all the AI, Christiana, even with all the,

it feels like America is now getting to a place where its politics is so metastasized that to a place where its politics is so metastasized that there is no movement. There is no surprise French election in America anymore. There is no surprise South African election in America anymore. There is no surprise UK election in America anymore. No, Americans are like, Hey, we are 50 50 Democrat, Republican. And then there's going to be a few hundred thousand people who decide who the president is. But otherwise we don't switch, we don't flip,

and until the population itself changes, I don't know if it matters to be honest with you. Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now after this. Let me tell you something, zero chance. Let me tell you something. There was a certainty that made me laugh. He was like, we don't do that shit. My friend, you are gonna text me a message when a former president, someone has tried to shoot them with a rifle from a rooftop somewhere. And you're like, I hope it's not a black man. I was like, there is zero.

Christiana, I didn't even say I hope so too. I was like, no. He said no way. There is no way. Let me tell you something. There is no chance that a black man is climbing up a building that the Secret Service is in or around. Be careful now. Yo, yo, yo, let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. I'll say this. First of all, on a human level, I was really happy that Trump was not shot.

I was sad that somebody behind him was shot. It's not fun in any way. Do you know what I mean? But I saw some people who were saying, they were like, oh man, I'm not going to lie. I'm a little sad that that guy missed. And I was like, genuinely, I said to these people, I was like genuinely I said to these people I was like you should thank every lucky star that you can think of that that did not happen because I don't know about you but I do not think I would be as comfortable after Trump had been shot and killed yo Trump's people

after seeing their guy in in many ways, think about it like, think of like how much Obama inspired hope and change in black people and young people. And then imagine like if he got taken out before he was going to be president or before his second term or whatever, the groundswell of hopelessness that could then calcify into revenge. I don't think I want to be, I don't want to be, I don't want to be witness to that. I, I was so happy. First of all, just on a human level, I was like, man, thank God. Okay. It didn't happen. Great. All right. It didn't happen. But then I was like, yo, thank, thank goodness for a lot of people. It didn't happen because

I really feel like America could very quickly become a tit for tat in this place where it's like every other politician would just have to cancel all their public speaking events. You know? Yeah. I mean, that's like, you know, World War, Civil War level stuff if someone gets killed. And yes, I will always be glad that we don't go down that path. But the vengeance retribution martyrdom angle is really interesting because Trump was already playing that card a ton already. And I'm just curious what the next few months are going to look like with him now, dialing that way, way, way up. And then seemingly also Democrats really being unsure how to criticize the man while still trying to play the civility politics

in this moment. And I just feel like we're going to get, you know, like really asymmetrical soul searching over the next few months. He can't bring it up too much because I think like, whatever you think about Trump, I think he's like a brilliant political animal with great political instincts. And he knows that if you talk so much about that type of harm, you look weak. So I'm, I'm interested in about when he will deploy it and why, cause I don't think he's going to, he's not going to wear the patch on his air forever. Like he's not going to be Van Gogh forever. Like he's going to know like I need to stop at a certain point.

And I'm just curious about how he will deploy it because I don't think he will exploit it constantly. Cause he's just like, it's also a picture of you on the ground with blood on your face, even if you have your fist up, you're in a weaker position. Yeah. I also think, you know, there are, there are times in life where we can forget that the people we disagree with are actually human beings. Yo, say what you want about Donald Trump.

If somebody tries to shoot your head off and a bullet flies past your head, like you, did you see that shot by the way in the New York Times where the bullet is like right behind his head? Incredible. Let me tell you something. There is no human being, unless you are really crazy, there's no human being who does not have a little bit of their life altered by the whisper or the introduction of your instant mortality.

That moment there, like, yeah, you go like, oh, he raised his fist and guys, adrenaline is a mother. Don't even play games. Like, I've done things when I have adrenaline in me where I'm like, yo, good. Yeah. And then you know what comes after adrenaline shock. Yep. And you know, because because I'll tell you now if Trump was as maybe callous is the wrong word as callous and calculated as people think he is like only on that level.

Oh, this guy would have put out a video quick, quick going like, hey, donate, we're going to beat the Democrat. They try to kill me. Come on. But he's been uncharacteristically quiet about it all. Even at the Republican convention, you know, when people were clapping for him and when they were, he smiled in a sheepish way that you don't normally see Trump. And now please, I'm not saying that now all of a sudden

Trump is gonna turn around and be, you know, all kumbaya and whatever, but I think on a psychological level, we should never take for granted that this human being has experienced what he's experienced. And now the question will be, how does he respond to that experience? Also to add to that, does he, does he think it's less of a game? Because we remember everyone still thinks it's a game.

Everyone is like, let me tell you what this means and we're going to do, Ooh, and the polls and this. Yeah. But for the person where the bullet was coming for them, it's not a game. They're the person who goes, damn, if, if I'm divisive'm divisive, do I get shot in, am I going to get shot in the head? Yeah. Also, Trump has always spoken like someone that's never been punched in the face. I can tell you grew up in an environment where you could say what you want, but there was never a threat of like, I'm from South London. Listen, you say the wrong thing. There's a saying

that we say, chat shit, get banged, which basically means like, if you say the wrong thing, there's a saying and we say, chat shit get banged, which basically means like, if you say the wrong thing, someone may slap you or tump you up. Chat shit get banged. I love that. But it's like, I think this is probably the first time he has been attacked in a very visceral way. Because he's always been like guarded and protected from that. And for that to happen at his age, it's definitely going to take a psychological toll. But it could just be fuel for more insanity, which I think

he may use it for that because I think he thrives off fear and trauma in a dark way. Trevor, I agree with you. I think I want to agree with you that this will be, but I will just point out people have been asking the Will this cause some soul-searching for Donald Trump? They've been asking that question basically every three months for the last eight nine years And it still hasn't happened and so maybe this is different Yeah, but I'm saying like to those people I go I don't understand why they were asking about about everything else, you know, and I mean this honestly I just go like why would he soul search and what would he be soul searching for? No, I agree, but I'm just saying that

there's a little bit of ongoing sort of wishful thinking about Donald Trump's capacity to do that kind of soul searching. I also agree that if there's anything... But Joey, don't you think getting shot at is like so crazy? Totally. I will also point out the other dynamic though, which is a little bit more of the sort of politics of it, but yes, Trump has been restrained and maybe that is even he realizes at a personal or political level, that's the sort of right mode to be in. But you know, a lot of Republicans, Donald Trump Jr. included, their first reaction was look what the Democrats have done.

They tried to jail us. They tried to kick us out. Now they're trying to kill us. We got to get after them. And Donald Trump just picked JD Vance, who was the most forceful Senator on that line, you know, coming out right away saying, this was the Democrats that did this. And he picks JD Vance to be his vice president. So maybe he's tactically, you know, playing this game where it's, okay, I'm going to surround

myself by people who are going to say the thing that I don't, you know, feel like I'm in a position to say. Yeah. But it's not going to disappear. I don't know. As somebody, it's funny, as somebody who has spent way too much of their time and life like studying and watching and learning about Donald Trump, like I, you know what I mean? I've spent, I've been in the doldrums of Trump. I agree with Christiana, first of all. The man's never been punched in the face. And secondly, people take for granted

how much of a showman Donald Trump is. Like how much he thinks of politics as a game. So there's this element of Trump that, yes, you're right, Christiana, uses fear, uses anxiety, uses anger, uses those things, but oftentimes he's not using his. Yeah, it's true. He's not using his, he's stoking your fear.

Yeah. He's using your anger, he's using your anxiety, but he's not the one who's being shot at. And I'm just saying, I'm not saying that this will or won't be soul searching time, I'm just saying, I struggle to believe that on a human level, because we don't live in like a crazy country in the world where people are getting assassinated all the time,

I think it's hard for me to believe that this person will not be moved one way or the other by this. Now, he could become, it's not a show anymore actually, which to be honest, scares me a little bit, you know? Trump might come out of this thinking, you guys want, you actually do want me dead and actually I'm coming for you. It might turn into that. Or he might go, man, you know, maybe I temper myself or maybe I, I don't know, but I struggle to believe that this type of thing leaves you walking away

emotionally unscathed. And I think Donald Trump is human enough that there will be some sort of effect or ramification. That's how I see him as a person. I agree, Trevor. When I say he's a political animal, but like a political animal, he's been wounded and he's traumatized. There's no way you get shot and you're not traumatized.

How he metabolizes that remains to be seen. But I don't think he's, the idea that he's just going to be as Trump as usual, I think that diminishes his humanity and not in a way like, oh, he's so human. I'm like, he's still a human being. This is not a God. It's a human being that went through a very human experience and that's going to change him.

Now, Jodie, if it's like, I don't think it's going to be a come to Jesus moment, but I think it'd be diminishing his humanity to act like this isn't going to have a really huge impact on his psyche because getting shot at is not a joke at all. We'll be right back after the short break. Can I ask the two of you a question about the people who are, were worried about Trump becoming president the day before he got shot and are still worried about Trump becoming president and how they now lodge those same critiques. I mean, from my eyes, Democrats are having a real hard time finding and owning that language. What do you see?

You know, it's actually funny you say that. Whenever I think about the baby Hitler paradox, I always think about what makes it a paradox. People simplify it and you joke about it and you go like, oh, if you could go back in time and kill Hitler as a baby, would you? And some people are like, of course you would. And then you're like, but you're killing a baby who hasn't done anything. And they're like, yeah, but that doesn't matter. You know what they're going to do.

And in this case, if Trump is showcasing many of the traits that could lead to a country, a republic or whatever, where people have their rights stripped away, people don't have free speech, people are terrified of the government. I think people are not wrong to highlight the similarities of that person to historical figures who have led their countries to a similar place. I think, to be honest with you, too much time has been spent on vilifying Trump as a character, like other politicians, as opposed to like what Christiano was saying, which is like focusing on the issues that affect the people. You know, when you go like this man is an evil man and he's the he will destroy the country and it's like, yeah, all of

that is it's populism. And it's like, okay, I get it's messaging. But to Christiana's point, if you really go to people, hey, this guy and the people he's coming into power with firmly believe that women should not decide what happens inside their own bodies. And so this is what your reality is gonna be. I still think you're able to have a thrust without making the person the devil.

And so I think if democratic politicians are unable to find thrust now, then I go, then you're not a good politician and you're not good at messaging because it's not just about Donald Trump. The same way it's not just about Joe Biden, by the way. In the same way they're having the argument where they're like, yes, I know he's old,

yes, I know he stumbles, but remember it's about the administration and look at what his justice department is doing and look at what he's done for the environment and look. Yeah, all of that is true. So by that same logic, then why are you only going after Donald Trump? Why aren't you going off to the ideas? Why aren't you going off to the liberties that people may lose? Why aren't you going after what his establishment would essentially mean for people? So I think if your only line of attack is him as a person and how vile he is, well then you also don't have

like a good game plan. That's not enough to get people mobilized and to keep them mobilized. People wanna know, how does it affect my paycheck? How does it affect my gas tank? How does it affect my body? How does it affect my healthcare? How does it affect my children? These are the things that most people are actually voting on. And so I think like

vile or not vile, I actually, I don't know, Jodie, I, Christiana, do you have a thought on this? Yeah, I think it's probably like our foreignness being kind of like anti-cult of the personality charisma politics. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, you're right, actually. Because we're just like, oh, it's exhausting. Like, I think when you come from a country where people tend to vote more for the party than the person who's running that party at the time, it kind of creates a different matrix through which you view the political system. And I think if you say to Americans, forget Trump, think about the Heritage Foundation.

Think about the fact that they are reintroducing Bibles into public schools. Think about bodily autonomy. That messaging has actually worked because the red wave never happened. If we look at all the midterms, when they've just been like to women, hey, this governor wants to make sure you can't have abortion.

The Republican women have come out and been like, nope, that's a step too far for her. So I think if the Democrats are able to talk about that and less than Trump himself, that to me is a lot more effective because, you know, Trump, you know where you stand on him. If you like him, you like him. If you don't, you don't. I don't think they're swaying people either way. But I agree. When you talk about the economy, when you talk about women's bodies, when you talk about what's happening in schools, and I guess as a parent, I know the school's thing is so fraught right now.

And I think if Democrats can focus on that, it'll make a big difference. You know? Well, this is where it comes full circle back to, you know, this thing we started with on, oh, this is clearly going to help Trump win. But you know, I think not so fast. And I think anyone who's saying this is going to change the election result in this way or this way is just really doesn't know what they're talking about. I mean, we've learned over and over that like the best you can do as a journalist or a thinker

or someone who cares about the country is just sort of assess the present because it's about all these underlying things you just highlighted. And all the people who are kind of deciding this election on whether they like Trump's style or not have probably already made up their mind. Yeah. You know, and I think for me, when I wrap it all up,

I think of it like this. It's like one of the things that makes America one of the greatest countries in the world is that its story is punctuated with near misses where they come out victoriously. You know, it's always near misses. Paul Revere, and if he didn't see them, then this wouldn't have happened and, and, oh, and almost, and this almost happened. While that's great for a movie, I don't think it's, it's a sustainable way for a country to exist because it then unfortunately means that the country doesn't necessarily have

to learn because it keeps believing in its own exceptionalism in every moment, you know, so Like this is this is another instance Because Trump didn't get killed because Trump didn't get assassinated Is America going to learn anything from this lesson or is America going to now sit and say? Yeah more punditry and more fighting around it and more. It's like, no, no, no, but, but okay, but what would you have done if it happened? Would you then have just turned it into this game?

Would you have, what would you have learned? And it's so hard. You know, my mom used to say this to me all the time. She'd go, life will keep teaching you the same lesson until you learn it and the lesson will become more and more and more impactful each time. And she was like, it will start with a scratch and it'll end with death until you learn that lesson. And the thing, like as a kid, I didn't really understand it.

But over time I've come to realize what it means is like, you really want to try and fix these things when it is just a scratch. You want to figure out how to speak to disaffected young men, disaffected young white men who have been told that they have no future, everything's been stolen from them, it's all gone to shit, whatever it might be. How do you reach them before they grab their parents rifle and go and try and shoot? You know a presidential candidate or former president you you how do you have conversations about guns? Before somebody is is shot like this, you know, I mean because people forget yes, they missed Trump, but they killed somebody

Yeah, yeah, you know, and in the story, it's weird how, like, the person who was killed behind the person is almost like, ah, yeah, whew. Oh, man, OK, I guess we, it's like, OK, but why is the bullet in that guy's head less meaningful than the bullet in Trump's head? And I know it's, yeah, president, et cetera, but I still go like, yeah, but we should still be learning the lesson, but the lesson doesn't get learned as much because it was near misses or it almost hit the president.

Yes, but it did. They've lost a father, they've lost a brother, they've lost a friend. And I know that guy, politics and whatever, don't get me wrong. I've seen his tweets, I've seen, yeah, but still. He cares. But still. Yeah, like that's immaterial. You know, it's like it's still.

So I don't know, Jodie, it's like, it's really tough. You know, I think of 9-11 and how when you read through the 9-11 report, most of the things that could have stopped 9-11 were tiny little changes, small little things that they could have done along the way, lock a door here, a little check there, a person responding to an email, and 9-11 doesn't happen. But then what does America do? It responds

to the planes smashing into buildings by going and killing a million innocent people in another country in the Middle East. Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. And so it's like, once again, I feel like we are witnessing a moment where a lesson may not be learned because it just grazed America's ear. I mean, instead of actually impacting us. That's a very depressing thought, Trevor. I mean, look, the last eight years or so for me have been largely speaking, one in which I've seen this country kind of, the veil of American exceptionalism get pierced, and this country realized that like, the stuff that can happen in other countries can happen here.

It had not occurred to me until you just said it, Trevor, that the idea that there was just a near miss here could somehow in a twisted way reinforce American exceptionalism because there wasn't an actual assassination. It was a near miss here could somehow in a twisted way reinforce American exceptionalism because there wasn't an actual assassination. It was a near assassination. That is a deeply twisted and depressing thought.

Yeah. Because I've seen so many Americans say, yeah, this is why God saved Trump and look at how strong he is and you can't take this man. But I don't see enough people saying, man, I live in a country where the most powerful man in this country, and yeah, the former president, let's say one of, one of the most powerful people in this country also had to drop to their knees for fear that somebody was going to shoot them. If that is happening to the top person, I mean, like, it's former president, former president,

like if that is happening up there, man, what hope is there for you and your kid in the street and your, whoo, that's a really, really rough one for me. So I think in that regard, I go, it's a shame that America's exceptionalism will sometimes mean that it does not learn a lesson until it's too late. Yeah. Trevor, there's nothing to say to that. It's perfect. You're right. Well, go Spain in the Euros. I don't know. Yeah.

Well, feel free to invite me back on any time you have a lighthearted topic like this. I'm happy to jump in. I don't need to do the, if I rule the world or the grand Easter is really fun or whatever. You just call me whenever. Oh man. Well, this was, you know what? It's still a good conversation. And I hope as an American we didn't depress you with our non-American thinking.

I hope we maybe inspired you. This is the perspective we need. Alright. I'm serious. We'll make sure you're on for a fun one as well, Joe. We owe you one now. We're not going to bring you on for Pollack. We're just going to have a fun conversation about, you know, candy. Halloween episode, best candy. Jodie's joining us again.

You know they put razor blades in that candy, Trevor. Well, I tried. I tried. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions and Fullwell73. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Ben Winston, Sanaz Yamin and Jodie Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl, Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music Mixing and Mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for

listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?