Where Is My Mind? - Ep. 5: Near-Death Experiences

Episode Date: September 5, 2019

"I wake up, on the other side, with the light." Featuring host Mark Gober’s interviews with Dr. Eben Alexander, Dr. Bruce Greyson, Dr. Ed Kelly, Dr. Penny Sartori, Dr. Jan Holden, Dr. Alan Hugenot, Barbara Bartolome, and Dannion Brinkley. Listen to all of Mark’s interviews here: https://markgober.com/podcast/ Dr. Pim van Lommel’s cardiac arrest study (2001): https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673601071008/fulltext Dr. Sam Parnia’s cardiac arrest study with a veridical case (2014): https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/article/S0300-9572(14)00739-4/pdf Independent review of Dr. Eben Alexander’s medical records: http://ebenalexander.com/independent-medical-review-validates-facts/ Check out Mark's book, "An End to Upside Down Thinking": https://www.amazon.com/End-Upside-Down-Thinking-Consciousness/dp/1947637851 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Here's a question we all have. It's a big one. What happens when we die? We don't know for sure, but we do have some good hints from people who have had near-death experiences, often abbreviated NDEs. Here's NDE researcher Dr. Penny Sartori. So a near-death experience is when someone has a close brush with death and technically there should be no conscious experience at all. But what some people report is that they may leave their body and look down from above. They might go through a dark tunnel towards a very bright light. They may meet deceased relatives or friends

who very often tell them they have to go back, that it's not their time. I think of all the topics we've talked about, this is maybe the one that will make people feel the most relieved. Why is that? So what we're talking about is the idea that our consciousness doesn't die when our body dies. The awareness that you have at this very instant, what we're saying is that maybe that doesn't die when our body dies. The awareness that you have at this very instant, what we're saying is that maybe that doesn't stop when the physical body stops functioning. I think it's a pretty comforting picture. Comforting or not, that's irrelevant. We need to remove our emotions and biases

and just look at what the evidence shows. And in fact there is real scientific evidence that our consciousness survives the death of the body, whether we like it or not. When we say near-death experience, or NDE, we're typically talking about someone who has had a major trauma in the body and comes back to life. It could be an illness or an injury. It's kind of mimicking what might happen when we actually do die. And during this time when the body and brain are impaired, people report vivid things, just like what Dr. Sartori discussed earlier.

People report clear and logical thinking, memories, and sometimes they see things that others verify, even things they see while hovering over their own body. And this is happening when the brain is barely functioning or completely off. Can you explain how this fits into our show? We've been talking about psychic abilities and now we're switching gears pretty dramatically. This whole show is about the idea that consciousness doesn't come from the body. So when the body dies, the consciousness continues because the body was never the source of the consciousness in the first place.

You with me? I'm getting there, but I think I need to hear you out a little bit more. In Dr. Bernardo Kastrup's whirlpool analogy, we're all whirlpools in a stream of the same water. If a whirlpool stops being a whirlpool, it dies. The water flows back into the broader stream. It transitions into a new form, but it doesn't leave the stream. The parallel here is, when the body and brain die,

consciousness continues. It just transitions. That's what this model of consciousness predicts. So the near-death experience might give us hints about whether this idea is true because the brain is either impaired or fully off, and yet there is a lucid consciousness. It's like the blindfold of the brain has been removed, so the consciousness is liberated and people experience what is ordinarily blocked. It's just like what we heard from the University of Virginia's Dr. Bruce Grayson in episode 2. So we're left with this paradox that at a time when the brain isn't functioning,

the mind is functioning better than ever. Matt, I think what we learned from the near-death experience reports might be some of the most important lessons ever. I'm really not exaggerating. In this episode, we'll start by looking at the research. We'll examine the typical features of an NDE and we'll take a look at the science to show why they might not be hallucinations. We'll then hear it from people who have had near-death experiences themselves and lived to talk about it, plus some incredible case studies with verified memories

during the NDE. We're going to hear from people who came back to life? Can't we just do that and skip the neuroscience? Here's the thing, Matt. Without understanding the science first, these stories that you hear from people are just incredible stories. They're such incredible stories, as a matter of fact, that the people who live to tell them are often dismissed because they sound impossible. And so these cases are often dismissed because they sound impossible. And so these cases are often ignored by our mainstream scientists. The brave people who tell their stories about NDEs

deserve to be heard from, and we deserve to hear them. Their messages are life-changing. This is Where Is My Mind. I'm Mark Gober. So what actually happens in a near-death experience? Okay, I'll do a quick walkthrough of the elements of NDEs that are often reported. I should note that not every NDE contains every element I'll discuss. The first one is super important. It's known as ineffability.

That just means that when people come back from NDEs, they have a hard time expressing what happened with language. Dr. Bruce Grayson from the University of Virginia explained this to me. Most near-death experiencers say there are no words to describe what happened to me. In a sense, we're forcing them to distort the experience by putting in the words. And they will use whatever words their cultural background has taught them to use. People often say the near-death experience was filled with extremely positive emotions, although a small minority of NDEs are actually negative and fear-inducing. People say their senses are heightened in the NDE.

They have an acknowledgement of being dead. They have an out-of-body experience where their consciousness and sense of self is hovering over their body. What? We're going to hear from someone who personally experienced that later. We'll get to that soon. People sometimes encounter heavenly realms. They even sometimes see deceased relatives or other beings.

They often experience a dark space or tunnel. They encounter a mystical, brilliant light or even a being of light. And you'll hear that in a bit too. Space and time feel different. People sometimes learn special knowledge and are shown the future. This is real? This is what the experts say is reported over and over. The next one is big. People sometimes report experiencing a life review. In other words, they relive their

whole life, all the events, in just a few moments. This is a heavy topic and in fact it's the focus of episode 6. The last part of the NDE is that people come back. Sometimes it's voluntary and other, they feel like they're being told to go back, which is fascinating. Last thing, when people come back from NDEs, they're often forever changed. Their priorities shift dramatically, and they're much less focused on material gains,

and more concerned with the well-being of others. They often say they have a greater sense of purpose. Other than being fascinating, why is this so important to the show that you took the time to explain it to people? Because if what they're describing isn't a hallucination, then maybe we're learning about reality beyond the blindfold of our brain. We might get hints about what happens when consciousness is released from the body. Maybe even the early steps of what happens to our consciousness when the body dies. Apparently, the NDE is not a new phenomenon at all.

It comes up in the Egyptian Book of the Dead around 2000 BCE, Plato's Dialogues around 400 BCE, and the Tibetan Book of the Dead, 8th century CE. Today there are millions of people who report NDEs, and who knows, maybe millions that don't. That number may keep increasing. Our resuscitation technology has improved significantly in the last few years, meaning doctors can bring more people back to life, even if they're really in dire straits.

So maybe we're just beginning to understand NDEs. In 1975, Dr. Raymond Moody published a famous book called Life After Life, which really put the near-death experience on the map. You'll hear from him in the next episode. After Moody started studying NDEs, so did many other researchers, and they found an astonishing amount of similarities across cultures and human history. Hear it from the University of Virginia's Dr. Bruce Grayson. If you look at the raw phenomena of NDEs, those phenomena do not change either across the globe, different cultures, or across the

centuries. We have accounts from ancient Greece and Rome that sound like they could have been recorded yesterday. People reported going through a long, dark structure in order to get from this realm to the other world. People in the United States often call that a tunnel. People in cultures where there aren't a whole lot of tunnels do not use that term. They may say they went to a cave. One person that I interviewed here, who was a truck driver, talked about going into a tailpipe. To me, these similarities are fascinating. Even children who have near-death experiences report similar things, and so do blind people. Even if people use different words or don't have the exact same experience, there's something universal about it.

Okay, I studied up for this because there are a ton of experts who push back on these NDEs. And before we hear from people who have actually had them, I want to make sure the listener and I should actually believe what they're saying. So I'm going to see how well you can defend your case here. First, lots of people think NDEs are simply the product of a hallucination caused by the brain dying. Why do you disagree with that? Yeah, that's definitely the common hypothesis you'll hear, but that's only a guess, totally unproven. It seems like a lot of people want that to be true. Do you have any evidence to suggest that they aren't hallucinations? Here's my question. How is it possible for the brain to be hallucinating rich experiences if the brain is off? To explain what I mean, let's look at some NDEs that occur during

cardiac arrest. This is when the heart stops beating and the person is clinically dead. Here's Dr. Bruce Grayson to explain. We know what happens when the heart stops beating and the person is clinically dead. Here's Dr. Bruce Grayson to explain. We know what happens when the heart stops. The brain waves decrease and flatline in about 12 seconds with a cardiac arrest. So we know that there is not much, if any, electrical activity going on in the brain at that time. For some NDEs, the brain is demonstrably quote offline. There are a number of people who do have cardiac arrests where their brains clearly are not functioning. The brain is off during cardiac arrest. In other words, there is no brain capable of a complex hallucination. So if consciousness depends on the brain, how

could someone have memories from a time period when the brain's off? It doesn't make sense. I put extra weight on looking at the near-death experiences during cardiac arrest. And in fact, I spoke with Dutch cardiologist Dr. Pim van Lommel, who published one of the most famous studies on this topic in the Lancet Medical Journal in 2001. He found that roughly 20% of cardiac arrest survivors reported NDEs. 20% doesn't seem like it's that big of a deal. According to mainstream neuroscience, it should be 0%. The fact that anyone is reporting an

NDE is such a huge deal, and that's why I'm mentioning this paper. Okay, but couldn't the NDE have happened right before or right after the brain shut off? The key here is timestamping. If you can timestamp when a memory occurred, then you could tell if it happened when the brain was off. How would you even do that? That's generally hard data to get because you need two things. One, you need a memory that can be verified by others who say, yeah, that did actually happen. And two, you need to know that this happened when by others who say, yeah, that did actually happen. And two,

you need to know that this happened when the brain was off. Sounds impossible. Believe it or not, this has been done. I'll give an example from a paper published in 2014 in the peer-reviewed medical journal Resuscitation. The paper was by Dr. Sam Parnia. He wrote about a man who survived cardiac arrest and reported a near-death experience afterwards. The man talked about a noise he heard in the room during cardiac arrest that said, shock the patient, shock the patient. Guess what? The researchers discovered this sound was the automated noise of the defibrillator in the room.

So they know when the memory occurred because they know when the defibrillator made that noise. And that memory occurred during the time he should have had no brain function. This is a case of clear consciousness happening during a time when there was no heartbeat. A highly functional consciousness with a highly dysfunctional brain. These cases are known as veridical cases and veridical is just a fancy way of saying a memory that is verified as accurate. They help us timestamp when the memories occurred. I spoke with Dr. Ed Kelly, who's a University of Virginia professor of psychiatry and neurobehavioral sciences, on how many veridical cases there are.

Well, how can you be sure that the experience actually occurred during the time of unconsciousness? And there are on the order of 100 cases. About 100 cases in the literature where the person in the near-death experience state has memories that others verified. 100 may not sound like a lot, but they're really hard to document, really hard to prove, and if the conventional view were right, there should be zero. hard to prove, and if the conventional view were right, there should be zero. And remember, verified memories are, by definition, not hallucinations. So your argument is, hallucination can only happen in a functional brain, and even if the brain is hallucinating, how is it possible people can observe and remember things when the brain is,

by definition, not functioning? Did I get that right? Yep. Hear more from Dr. Jan Holden, an NDE researcher from the University of North Texas. If people can perceive accurately while their brain is not discernibly functioning, it really kind of wipes out any attempt to explain the phenomena of near-death experiences through physical means. People are accurately perceiving things despite their brain not working. And sometimes they even perceive these things from a vantage point outside their body, like from the ceiling. And even more than that, sometimes people accurately perceive things in other rooms. Like a case Dr. Holden told me about in our interview. This case comes from a French ICU anesthesiologist documented in 2015. A woman's heart stopped unexpectedly during surgery. The

doctor stabilized her while she was unconscious so she never woke up. She had a normal post-op recovery. But after she woke up, the patient told her doctor she knew she had died during the surgery. When asked how, she said she left her body and saw what was happening in the next room, another operating room. So, she said her consciousness actually went above the ceiling, and she was able to see through the ceiling into the operating room next door. Okay, this is a little gross, but I'm mentioning the detail for a reason. The patient saw a man's leg being amputated in that room, and that the leg was put into a bright yellow plastic bag for disposal.

The reason I mention that detail, again, I'm sorry about that, the patient told her surgeon. Even her surgeon didn't know about it until he confirmed it later with hospital records. This is an amazing case, and Dr. Holden asks the right question. So how could a patient just having her own surgery know exactly what's going on, not only in her own resuscitation while she is completely anesthetized and technically dead, and also know what's going on in an adjacent operating room that the surgeon himself didn't even know about. Matt, just a reminder, Dr. Kelly said there are around 100 cases like this. Okay, what if there is a tiny amount of activity in the brain that our

current medical tools just can't measure yet? I hear this argument a lot, and I think it's far-fetched. The argument comes from a desire to preserve the idea that the brain must somehow create these experiences. What you're saying is, well, maybe a minuscule, currently unmeasurable amount of brain activity could explain these elaborate experiences. Well, if that were true, it would imply that we need to radically change neuroscience, because neuroscience assumes that lots of brain activity is required to produce complex experiences and memories. So, neuroscience needs to completely change how it looks at the brain,

or neuroscience needs to be open to the possibility that consciousness can exist without a brain. We had to set the stage. We showed there are reasons to believe the typically reported NDEs can be legit, not just hallucinations that people should dismiss as lies, dreams, or fantasies. That's going to make what we hear next much more powerful. Coming up, people who actually had NDEs. Right after this. We just took up valuable minutes of your day explaining why you shouldn't dismiss NDEs. You're still listening, so I assume you at least are open-minded. What if the people we're about to hear from, and the millions of others who have reported similar experiences,

what if they're telling us what really happened? I want to start with Dr. Alan Huguenot, who had an NDE decades ago, but he's still here today to talk about it. I was in a motorcycle accident, and just about the time I hit the car, I don't remember after that. And the next thing I know, I wake up on the other side with the light. I woke up in communion, I would say, with this being of light. And it's a white light, but it's kind of a gold around the edge. It's kind of a warm gold, white, the brightest light you've ever seen, but it doesn't hurt your eyes. I'm there with this light.

Now, the light is a being being but it just kind of surrounds me it's like I'm being held like a baby's being held in some arms and being rocked back forth excuse me it's a very emotional thing to talk about the feeling was I'm at home I'm where I belong I'm back there's no introductions that being doesn't say hi my name's Joe or anything like that. The being is a being I've known before. I've known this energy or this person or this being since the beginning of time. So there I was, and I woke up there.

We were analyzing what I had accomplished, where I'd been, and what I needed yet to do. And that's where we were at, what I can still remember. And this being has reviewed all this with me. And the being says, so, Alan, you know, you have to go back. And because you're not done yet. And I said, well, I don't want to go back. I'm here. I like it. I'm going to stay. And he says, that's not the way it works. He, she, whatever. It doesn't have an asexual being. It'll just be for a little while. That's been 46, 47 years.

It's a long time. I'm ready to go at any time. I'm no longer fear of death at all. It's like, without wanting to sound suicidal, I can't wait to go back. What do you think, Matt? Does that sound like a hallucination to you? I think I'm struck by just how real it is. This is a person who had a life-changing experience, and you could tell from how emotional he is that this is something he went through. But again, I think the power is that we have tons of these accounts. This is just one person. Another person I spoke to was Barbara Bartolome. She went to the hospital for

what was supposed to be a routine back surgery. The two doctors were leaning against a wall talking, you know, this was a normal, this wasn't a big deal. This wasn't anything that they were all scared of that something was going to happen. But what happened was the x-ray tech next to the table who was tipping the table pushed the wrong button on the table. So he lowered my head and raised my feet and no one was really watching. And no one was really watching. And I felt funny almost immediately when he started moving the table, but the dye that they had injected into the base of my neck was already in my brain.

The last thing that I saw was him lean back, look where his thumb was, and then make this face like, oh, s***. I literally just shut my eyes. And the next moment I was up on the ceiling looking down at the scene below. I had been very panicky in my body, feeling very scared and panicky because I couldn't, you know, talk and couldn't reach out. And up on the ceiling, it was complete calm. and I said, huh, if I'm up here and my body's down there and he's calling code blue, I think I just died. I realized that there was someone up there next to me, up on the ceiling,

and there was some sort of a presence. And to me, the presence felt so accepting and so loving. Matt, doesn't that sound kind of like the being of light that Dr. Huguenot described in his NDE? And this is what the researchers are finding, is that so many people have similar experiences, even though they're totally independent. Super interesting. But anyway, back to Barbara. Wait, before we go back, like, just a reminder, she says she's seeing this all from the ceiling. It's kind of tripping me up.

She's on the ceiling and her body is not on the ceiling. Yeah. And so I immediately said, I would really like to go back into my life. If I leave my children, they won't grow up to be the human beings that they're capable of being if I am there to contribute to them. I also immediately knew outside of my body what my purpose for my life was, whether I designated it with somebody else designated it. I have no idea how I knew what that purpose was, but I knew I hadn't done it yet. When I came back in my body, I didn't remember what it was, but I knew that I had known it.

And so up on the ceiling, I said, I really need to go back to complete my purpose as well. Again, I mean, that's very similar to what Dr. Huguenot described. Right, completing a purpose. Having to go back. Before we return to Barbara's story, I want to give our listeners a warning and some context. Barbara, sadly, was in an abusive marriage.

That comes up here. The being said one thing to me the whole time that I was there up there with him. He didn't talk to me. I was kind of asking him to go back and to be able to do my purpose. And so then the being said, but if you go back, you'll still be in your marriage. What will you do? And then he showed me all of these little film clips, just little fast film clips of these events that had happened in my marriage that I had been trying to forgive my husband for. I saw all these little film clips of all this abuse that I had been going through. And then I was given the time that I wanted to, to evaluate what I wanted to do.

Did I want to stay up there where I was safe? Did I want to go back where I was definitely unsafe? And I realized it wasn't him that needed to change. He wasn't going to change. It was me, and I had to look at it differently. And I had to save myself and my children. So I said to the being, if you let me go back, I promise you that I will get strong enough to leave him. And the minute that I said that, that I'll get strong enough to leave him, I literally shut my eyes up on the ceiling and the

light, you know, me looking down disappeared and I blinked open my eyes and I was in my body with the oxygen mask on my face. I literally can see the whole thing from up on the ceiling. It's the most vivid memory that I have in my entire life. I want to emphasize something about Barbara's remarkable story. It challenges so much of what we were taught, especially scientists and doctors like Barbara's. I then, when they took the oxygen mask off, I said, what just happened? I was up on the ceiling.

I could see and hear everything. The neurosurgeon said, oh, brother. I wanted to be believed. I had just had something happen to me that I couldn't explain. And so I said, no, I was up on the ceiling. She was on the phone calling for the defib unit the whole time, but it didn't come in. And that man brought in the heart monitor and I watched it flatlining. And oh, my God, you should have seen everybody's faces.

They were like and the neurosurgeon while I was saying all that clenched his fist he was standing right next to the table he clenched his fist and kind of pulled his arms like his shoulders up and his fists next to his body and he went I am not gonna stand here and listen to this when did she have time to come up with that story and lie? And what other explanation is there? This is exactly the dynamic we see in much of mainstream science, medicine, and academia. A refusal to look at evidence, even if it's right in front of someone's face. This isn't even not looking in the telescope like we saw with Galileo versus the church.

This happened right in front of the doctor saw with Galileo versus the church. This happened right in front of the doctor, and yet he literally turned away. So if you ask me, why aren't quote-unquote paranormal topics being discussed in the mainstream, I think it's denial. This is as alarming as it is unscientific. We're about to hear some more cases that will be really challenging for mainstream science to accept. Cases where the information from the near-death experiencer is verified as accurate, like we talked about earlier in the show. Verified visions and memories, by definition, that means they're not made-up hallucinations.

Now, back to Dr. Huguenot. One of the things that happened during a near-death experience in Harborview Hospital in Seattle, the person having the experience went out of body and went up on the roof. Their consciousness was outside the building. Their body was still in the building. And they saw a shoe, a blue shoe that was outside on the ledge by the window. They mentioned it when they came back. And the nurse went and found the shoe. Now, there's no way that the person who never left the ICU could have gone and seen this shoe that was up on the ledge outside the hospital.

How would they have seen this? Did their mind travel out there? Yes, their mind must have gone out there and saw that. The seeing that people have when they're out of body seems to be 360. They're looking in all directions at the same time. You heard Dr. Huguenot mention 360-degree vision during a near-death experience. There are also reported cases of people who have been blind since birth, yet they're able to see accurately during their near-death experiences. Upon resuscitation, they go back to being blind. I just had to mention that. Other things that are veridical are a person

will have a near-death experience, and while they're having that experience and they're being operated on, their family is in another room somewhere else in the hospital, and they go down there to that room and they happen to hear what the family said while they were under in the operating room. Later they come to after they've come out of the surgery and then they say to the family, "'Well, why did you say this?' And the family says, "'You weren't there.

How did you know we said that?' Here's yet another case, this time from Dr. Bruce Grayson from the University of Virginia. There's one person I know quite well who, in the middle of open-heart surgery, when he was fully anesthetized, left his body and looked down at the resuscitation, at the operation, and saw his surgeon, as he described it, flapping his arms as if he was trying to fly now I've been a doctor for 40 years I've never heard or seen anyone do something like

that I went to talk to his surgeon and the surgeon in a very embarrassed manner confessed to me yes he does that that's one of his habits and what this explanation was he doesn't want to risk touching something that's not sterile with his hands so he places them in his armpits and then supervises his assistants by wiggling his elbows to point out where they should cut or where they should pull this or that so it looks to someone who doesn't know what's going on

as if he's flapping his wings as if trying to fly now how could the patient have known this unless he was actually watching it from some other perspective? One more example of a verified perception during an NDE. It's probably the most famous account of an NDE, and it's from someone we've heard from in previous episodes, Dr. Eben Alexander. He's a former Harvard neurosurgeon, just want to repeat that, neurosurgeon at Harvard, whose best-selling 2012 book, Proof of Heaven, recounts the NDE he had while suffering from E. coli bacterial meningitis. He was in a coma for a week when he had this NDE.

Dr. Raymond Moody called this NDE the most astounding he's ever heard in his decades of research. Here's what Dr. Ed Kelly told me. Remember, he's a University of Virginia professor of psychiatry and neurobehavioral sciences. Their examination of this record establishes beyond any reasonable doubt that he was about as close to death as you can get without actually being dead. As a neurosurgeon himself, Dr. Alexander was baffled. I knew the medical evidence was so strong that my neocortex had been so heavily damaged that I couldn't see how any hallucination could occur. Take it from a Harvard neurosurgeon. Dr. Alexander had a severely damaged brain, but yet he had a vivid consciousness and he

remembers it. He describes some pretty incredible things, like being in other realms and riding on a butterfly wing. Okay. In his NDE, he saw a beautiful woman. I was witnessing that with a companion, a beautiful girl on the butterfly wing with me. But when I was deep in this experience,

she was just extremely comforting. She had sparkling blue eyes, soft brown hair, high cheekbones, high forehead, a broad smile. And she looked at me with this look of pure love. I can't describe it any other way. Now it gets really interesting. Dr. Alexander was adopted as a child. A few months after he left the hospital, he, for the first time, received a picture of his deceased birth sister, who he had never met. The girl on the butterfly wing in his NDE was his birth sister. And it shocked me no end.

And I realized that I really had to go all the way back down to square one and restart from the ground up any understanding of the nature of reality. I'm running out of things to say here other than I think we should consider listening to these people. Yeah, Dr. Alexander said it. We have to restart from the ground up about the nature of reality. We've covered a lot in this episode. We've looked at what typically happens in a near-death experience, examined reasons why they might not be hallucinations,

and heard cases that might be best explained by saying consciousness is functioning independently of the body, sometimes accessing information in the broader stream. That notion aligns with everything we've been saying in the show so far. The science is mind-blowing, but I'm more interested in this next point. If we accept or even entertain the idea that an NDE is not a hallucination, what can we learn? that an NDE is not a hallucination, what can we learn? That leads us to our next episode,

which covers something reported in many NDEs, the life review. Throughout the episode, you'll hear from Daniel Brinkley, who had four, yes, you heard correctly, four near-death experiences. And each time,

he had a life review. And then you literally become every person that you ever encounter, and you feel the direct results of your interaction between you and that person. What does that tell you? The universe is fair and just, and nobody gets away with anything. So the comfort that people can draw from it is if someone has hurt you in your life, they will know that. And if someone's brought you joy, they'll also know that. I don't say this lightly.

The next episode of Where Is My Mind might change your life. It changed mine. See you next time on Where Is My Mind. Thank you for listening to Where Is My Mind? The show was written by me, Mark Gober, and the show was produced at Blue Duck Media by Matt Ford and Gabe Goodwin, with help from Antonio Enriquez, Zuri Irvin, and Ben Redmond.

The show is edited by Andy Jaskiewicz. Special thanks to Cadence 13, particularly John McDermott and Patrick Antonetti. Also thanks to Bill Gladstone and Waterside Publishing. All of my full-length interviews are available at markgober.com slash podcast. We'd like to thank our sponsors

and if you'd like to support the show, please consider supporting them on our behalf. Please rate and review the podcast on iTunes and if you'd like, tell a friend to subscribe and spread the word.

See you next time.