Who Trolled Amber? - Lightbulbs | Dangerous Memories Ep 6

Episode Date: August 6, 2024

After years of failed attempts, an expert flies over from America to help guide the parents on how to get their children back. But getting them home is not the end of the journey, for anyone caught up in Anne’s web.To find out more about Tortoise:Download the Tortoise app - for a listening experience curated by our journalistsSubscribe to Tortoise+ on Apple Podcasts and Spotify for early access and ad-free contentBecome a member and get access to all of Tortoise's premium audio offerings and moreIf you want to get in touch with us directly about a story, or tell us more about the stories you want to hear about contact [e-mail]: Grace Hughes-HallettProducer: Gary MarshallAdditional reporting and production: Imogen HarperSound design and original composition: Tom KinsellaTheme music: Far Gone (Don’t Leave) by Pictish TrailPodcast artwork: Lola WilliamsCommissioning editor: Basia CummingsExecutive producer: Ceri Thomas Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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We have everything you need for an A plus year. Come check out our special back to school offers. They'll leave you with more cash in your pocket for the stuff you love. Select plans even include data overage protection so you can go all out without going over. Don't wait. Our back-to-school offers are only available for a limited time. Go to Fido.ca or a Fido store near you and save all semester long. Fido. At your side. side. And then somebody told me about this man called Steve Hassan. In almost every direction I've turned in this investigation, there's one term I keep

brushing up against. Cult. When I'm at my laptop looking back over interview transcripts with experts, investigators and other former clients of Anne's. It's everywhere. And by the time Huey's mum, Sarah, picked up the phone to Dr. Stephen Hassan, it was on her mind too. Friends and family had been scouring the internet for answers. They were looking for someone who understood the situation they found themselves in

and who knew how to get them out of it. I'm Dr. Stephen Hassan. I am a licensed mental health counselor. I got interested in the area of mind control cults due to my own involvement in the Moonies in the mid 70s. Everything else had failed. The legal letters, the attempts to contact Huey and Tory directly, the police investigation. And the more they looked online, the more they started to come around to Phypsey's thinking. The conclusion she reached when she ended her sessions with Anne years earlier.

I'm looking for help. To help my friends who I love. the conclusion she reached when she ended her sessions with Anne years earlier. I'm looking for help, to help my friends who I love. I need to coax them into a place of trust, but somehow help them understand that they are victims of a sick, disturbing cult, masquerading as a compassionate, kind, and most of all, knowledgeable woman who has contact with the spirit world and at the end of the day, always knows best. What can I do? Also, it is possible...

The question became, if Anne really was behaving like a cult leader, how could anyone convince her remaining followers to leave? And Dr Stephen Hassan said he had some ideas. But here's the thing, even if you can bring someone home, it doesn't mean it's the end of the story. For the clients, the families, or for Anne. Getting out doesn't mean the dangerous memories fade away. I'm Grace Hussalat and from Tortoise, this is episode six. Lightbulbs. Only answers are love Hey oh oh oh, no oh oh Hey oh oh oh, no oh oh

So, what I teach family and friends is the strategic interactive approach, and the idea is to be very focused on the goal, which isn't to get the person away from the cult, but the goal is to empower the person to think for themselves and make their own decisions. After Sarah explained the situation, Dr. Hassan said he could fly over from the US to meet in person. You know, I hired him for the day to give us a workshop. The plan was to hold a team preparation meeting. Sarah was tasked with gathering all of Huey's closest friends and family to learn about this strategic interactive approach. They would listen to what Stephen had to say and come away with a new plan of action.

And I'll do a primer on brainwashing, mind control, how to understand it, and then how to talk to somebody and how to interact in effective ways. So Sarah invited 20 of the people closest to Huey, including Phypsey, to come and meet in the Sloan Club in Chelsea. Tori's mum and friends came too. And so I don't know what to expect. I just know I'd shelled out quite a bit of money and organised some food. Anyway, this man walks in and he says I'm Jewish and I'm incredibly intelligent and if somebody had told me a few years ago that I would

work for free for a madman called Moon then I would have told them they were crazy but he said the moon has got me. Stephen's own story is important because he has first-hand experience of life in a cult. I wanted to know what you would say to a listener who might be hearing the story of Hughie and the other young women and thinking, that would never happen to me. I would never believe things that weren't true of my past, of my family. Well, what I would say to people is that's exactly my mindset that made me so vulnerable to being recruited into the Moonies. I was an extra-other student in school. It was the 1970s. He was 19. At the start of a new college semester, a group of women

asked if they could sit with him at his table in the cafeteria. He said yes. He thought maybe if things went well it might lead to a date. But these women weren't fellow students as he'd assumed. They were members of the Unification Church. Its followers are known to the wider world as Moonies, after their leader, the Reverend Sun Myung Moon. And that meeting would be the first in a series of events that would lead to him joining a cult. Over time, Stephen says he was brainwashed. The people, the place and the time were different to Huey and Tory's experiences. But he came to believe similar things about his own family and his own past. As a Mooney, I believed I had a terrible childhood and I had been physically abused by my father

and when I got to... He dropped out of college. He believed son Myung Moon was his true parent and he cut ties with his family and friends. In the end, it took a near fatal accident that led him to reconnect with his sister, before Stephen began his long journey back to himself and to his family. So he knows what it means to be under the influence of someone you believe in, and he knows what it takes to end that relationship. And now he was going to teach the team Sarah had assembled how to give themselves the best chance of getting their daughter, their friend, back.

It was the most fascinating day and what the three things I got out of it most, which actually changed everything for me. The first thing he said was, you can put a bullet through the woman, but you'll never get your daughters back until their light bulb comes on. So you can't do any force, you know, other people say, well, why don't you just kidnap her? Why don't you do this? Why don't you do that? And he said, you know, their light bulb has to come on. They have to see it for themselves. You can't do physical separation. Step one. be patient. Stephen told them that the interventions they'd been trying, turning up on Huey's door, sending emails pleading for her to see sense about Anne, they were never going to work. Instead they would have to wait.

And then the second thing was he said if they ever put their head above the parapet, Hi, I'm here. You don't say, how could you have done that to me? He said, you just say this is the best day of my life. You know, you do not make any judgment on them at all because they will disappear under that parapet, you know, immediately. Step two, acceptance. And then the third thing he said was, even when their light bulb comes on, and even when they realise that they have got everything wrong and that the person who they think is their saviour or their guru or their mother or you know this person, even when their light bulb comes on they realise that the person is a fraud. The hardest thing is for them to come back

home because they have to admit that every decision they made was wrong. So he said even when the light bulb comes on, even when they've escaped, it's very, very hard for them to come home. Step three, prepare for the future. It's a long road they have to travel. And these three steps only get them home. They don't deal with everything that follows. But Sarah wasn't thinking that far ahead. She was still waiting for that light bulb to come on, waiting for her daughter's head to appear above the parapet. And then Tory had moved to this place called Grow Heathrow and Tory was like, hey, why don't you come and live here?

Tory, the client Anne referred to as the other person when she told Hughie about her, was living in a kind of makeshift protest camp in a field called Grow Heathrow. It was built in a bid to stop the expansion of Heathrow Airport in Southwest London. And now Huey was thinking of joining her. They'd kept in touch ever since they got to know each other during the period that Anne was on police bail.

And Anne was very like, I'm not sure you should do that, I'm not sure. But I just didn't, her rules and if she said I could or couldn't do something, it didn't have that same very subtle shift, I didn't have that same grip on me. And she said, well ask in a dream tonight if you're meant to go. The dream apparently confirmed that she should go, but almost immediately after she arrived, there was a problem. On my first day of moving there, Aturi had a session with Anne and then she came back

and did not speak to me again. It was interesting because Anne would say quite harsh things about Huey to me, how Huey was trying to take my experiences from me and by coming to Grohe Thro and yeah, encouraging me to see Huey in sort of a, in not such a good light. And it definitely, it was like she was setting us against each other, you know.

They'd been gravitating closer to each other, becoming allies who are now only living meters apart. But it seemed like Anne was intent on stopping that, exerting her remaining control by pitting them against each other. And I remember sitting in Anne's car with her. Tori remembers Anne coming to visit her when she was living at Grohe Thro. I remember saying in Anne's car with her. Tori remembers Anne coming to visit her when she was living at Grohe Thro.

I remember saying to her, like, Anne, I can see some improvements in my life, but the 18 disorder is not getting any better. And I still feel really suicidal. And I still just have no desire to be living this life. And I remember her looking really panicked. And she said, okay, I think you should see this woman called Vivian and Vivian was someone who was helping Anne. Vivian was a healer who Anne was also seeing.

Vivian worked with angels and energy and Tori took Anne up on the offer. And I remember saying to me in the first session that like my energy was really bonded to Anne and that she was going to help me kind of break those bonds. And I remember sensing from the way she said that she said it in quite a neutral way, but I was like, I know this is like not a, it's we're bonded in an unhealthy way. I don't know why Anne made this suggestion or if she knew what the outcome of it would be. My first reaction was that either Anne had panicked about Tory's state of mind and felt overwhelmed, or that she could sense Tory was looking for a way out of their journey together,

and that she hoped Vivian could talk Tory back around But Tori has a different interpretation. At the time, she saw it as a genuine act of concern for her wellbeing. She says there was almost a mother-daughter dynamic between her and Anne. But with the benefit of hindsight, she wonders if Anne used this dynamic in order to coerce her. Tori still finds it really hard to figure out what Anne's intentions towards her were. Do you remember when the idea came to you to leave England? Anne and I we went to the beach together, she drove us and I we went to the to the beach together she drove us and we went we walked along the beach and I just remember thinking like ah I

just want to be free of this this woman and I remember like I couldn't help I just walked off and I just felt like I was shaking some energy off me and my energy was expanding like like massive like almost like taking over the planet and Yeah, I just knew I just I needed to leave I needed to leave England leave and leave my family and just almost put everything that I had experienced in a box put it to one side and just go out into the world and Stop asking myself this question was I abused was I not abused and let life out into the world and stop asking myself this question, was I abused, was I not abused, and let life show me the truth. And I wanted to have experiences that made me want to be here, made me want to be alive. And so that's what I did.

Torey's light bulb was flickering into life. But she told Anne they could continue working together, just less frequently, from a distance. So she moved to Spain. She had a plan to go and work with horses near the sea. She was interested in a specific method of natural horsemanship where the trainers encourage you to create bonds with the animals without manipulation. She wanted space on her own to work out what to do next. So I lived there for like a year and a half at Grohe Thro and then one day I told Tori that I was leaving. Before Tory left England, Huey had also decided to make a move. I kept having dreams that I needed to move to Brighton and so I went down to Brighton one day on the train and I found a little caravan on sale and I busked. I had no money when I went down there.

For a while, when she was at Grohe Throw, she'd felt that she'd had a little more freedom from Anne. Anne seemed more concentrated on Tory. And then she was suddenly like, oh, Hughie, you know, you're actually the one I need. You're the one I need to get to the light and you're the one and you're the chosen one. And, you know, I'm certain she... With Tori out of reach, Huey felt Anne's focus retrained on her. When Huey moved to Brighton, life was not straightforward. She started out living in

a caravan with her two cats, but in a bit of bad timing the council wanted to clear the site not long after she'd moved in. So with nowhere else to go she bought a little tent and she went into the woods. She'd learned how to live outside at Grohe Thro and she hoped she could make it work with the help of a portable solar panel. It sounds ambitious. As the season turned from autumn to winter it became clear that Huey's tent wasn't going to offer her or the cats much protection. But then someone made her an offer. She'd recently turned to her music and now she was writing and

performing her own material. She'd met people through busking and one of them, a woman called Dee Dee, offered her a place to stay. It was a kind offer but a big shift. She hadn't trusted anyone in that way for some time, so she was apprehensive. And she turned to Anne for her opinion. Really encouraged, she was saying, look, you've found your way, you found your way with the tents, and just find another spot to camp, don't move in with her, just keep being a free spirit. So I was like trying to walk through all the woods near Brighton, trying to find another spot

and it just wasn't anywhere appropriate to live. And a likely friend says a sister come down, come be free. So she moved in with Dee Dee and it turned into a positive experience. She felt a sense of belonging with Dee Dee's family and her music was taking shape too. She'd travel into London and busk in front of crowds of tourists on the South Bank. She'd try and sell the album she'd recorded with her own artwork on the cover.

Sometimes she'd play alongside other musicians and one day one of them who she didn't know too well struck up a conversation about spirituality. He just started talking to me about these spiritual kind of gurus who are actually really controlling and they use spirituality and spiritual practice to control people and it was suddenly like just something shifted in me I don't know how to describe it but I just felt I think a lot of anger towards Anne doesn't sound like much but for Huey this was a huge moment. Sometimes it's just about the right person saying the right thing at the right time.

And everything changes. And this seems to be the lightbulb moment Stephen Hassan was talking about. Step one one complete. When Huey was on the train home to Brighton later that day she checked her phone. There were several missed calls from Anne. And then Anne rang again. So Huey picked up. She says Anne started asking her

why she had been out busking for so long, why she hadn't gone home. And so I was on the phone to her on the way home and I just said, look, Anne, you know, I really value our communication and our friendship and everything you've done for me over the years and I just feel like maybe we don't need to speak every day. Maybe it would be really nice for us if we could just like, you know, you have a few days experiencing life how you do and I can experience life

how I do and then we can like catch up after a few days and she just said or maybe we'll just never speak again and just hung up and Say what the hell I tried to call her back and her phone was off and She wouldn't pick up and then eventually she picked up and I was like and what's what's the matter? I'm not saying I don't want to speak to you again I just said, you know, maybe we could just not speak every day. And I feel it would be good for me to have a bit more room to experience life. And then we can chat about, you know, our experiences and share, you know, in a nice way,

like have a nice friendship and a nice relationship. And she just sounded really wounded, really upset, looked quite fragile, and was like, okay, Huey, okay, yeah, that's fine, okay. And then I never really spoke to her again, and that was it. Huey had one more conversation with Anne after that. There was an important development in her life that she wanted to share. When she'd moved to Brighton she'd met someone who would become her partner and she was pregnant. So she emailed Anne. She planned to tell her about this big update. She wrote back this message saying, um, I can't speak now. I'm really sorry. I cannot be

distracted. I'm about to, I cannot be distracted. I'm about to get all the final pieces, it's all coming together, it's all about the police, it's all coming together, I just can't be distracted from my journey now. And I was like, my God, it's been like a year since we last spoke, or like eight months, and you're still talking about the same things. Like for years it was always, oh this is the final piece, oh this is the last piece, it's all coming together, we're going to break through, we're going to break it. And so much had happened to me in my life,

huge life shifts that give you a different perspective and there she was still in her like obsession with these pieces and the police and yeah it was like the first moment where I was like something something not right. That's basically the end. But it's not the end. It's not really the end at all. There's an important distinction to make here. Leaving Anne and reuniting with all the family and friends that have been cut from Huey's life are not the same thing. One doesn't necessarily lead to the other. The sessions and everything else that came with them

might have stopped there, but the thoughts and beliefs that had formed in Huey's head over years hadn't changed. She still believed she was the victim of abuse at the hands of her family. As for Sarah, she had no idea that Huey had left Anne, or in fact where Huey was. She was still missing. The parapet that Sarah was so carefully watching from afar, the one she was praying to see her daughter emerge from under, didn't feel any closer. her daughter emerge from under didn't feel any closer. I was sitting on a bus on my way home. I was about seven months pregnant and I don't know, it was really weird. I was trying to decide what to make for dinner and I was like, yeah, either I'm going to make veggie lasagna or I'm going to make a stir fry, but each one

was going to take me to a different shop And I remember it felt like the biggest decision in the world And I was like why does this feel like such a big decision in the end I chose the veggie lasagna and I had to go to this health shop in Brighton to Get those ingredients is and so I was like... And then one afternoon, I get an email from somebody I've been at school with who said, hey, Sarah, my son Leo is walking down a narrow alley in Brighton today and he saw a vegan cafe.

And he went in and there was Huey. And I sort of just saw him and by the time I'd seen him it was almost too late to move so I tried to just act really cool and he was like, hi! And I kind of had my shopping basket kind of, I think it was in front of my tummy. I was just trying to protect my, just trying to hide and someone was like, hi, oh hi, hi! Funny to see you, just trying to act as normal as possible. And then he just looked down at my tummy and was like, What's this?

He then went on, because I didn't know that he knew my family, and he then was like, I saw your mum recently. And then suddenly I went into this plummet of despair Because by this point even though I wasn't in touch with Anne anymore I still believe really strongly that all the stuff was real all the abuse stuff was real and Anne always said that if my family ever got me back They'd want to section me especially my grandmother because she'd want all the family secrets to be hidden. So when he said that he knew my family I became really really frightened and I remember walking and I just

remember you know I hadn't known where she was for two years and my legs just buckled under me and and I mean it was completely extraordinary. Sarah had no clue where Huey was. At one point, she heard a rumor she was abroad. She thought she'd lost her. So this chance encounter, it was a new lead. And Sarah knew who could put it to use, the private detective she'd used in the past.

She picked up the phone and asked him if he could find Huey's current address. And four hours later, four hours later I get an address. And then I'm thinking, oh, you know, what do I do? What do I do? Sarah decided to send a postcard. She worried that a letter in an envelope might be left unopened. I just wrote on the postcard, I hear you are having a baby in October, I love you very much, this is my email.

She had no idea what, if anything, the response would be. So Sarah and her husband Henry went on a holiday they'd planned, and they waited. I think it took me one or two weeks to decide what to do, and eventually I was like, I can either spend the rest of my life running from my family, or I can like turn and face them. When Huey met her partner, he'd listened to what she believed about her family and accepted it as the truth. It was like a massive thing for him and but then after like a bit of time he was like, you know, have you ever asked your family these things?

Have you ever spoken to them? He started challenging me quite early on. He was like, who is this woman? I would sort of describe Anne. He'd be like, but that just doesn't sound normal. Why was she behaving like this? Or why was she like that? But he'd always said to me, you need to speak to your family. You need to confront them. You need to, at least if you can look them in the eye and say, I never want to speak to you again, it's better than just running and not talking to them. Huey decided to reply.

She agreed to meet, but she had conditions. She wanted to agree on a timeframe. It could be a 40 minute meeting in Brighton, no longer than that. And then she sent her mum an email, The first contact she'd made in six years. Ten days later, late, you know, it's 11 o'clock at night, I can feel it like yesterday. My phone goes bing! And there's an email from her.

She's like, I woke up, Henry was asleep, I said, she's answered, she's answered! And he said, we'll answer in the morning. I said, no, no, she's answered. And he said, we'll answer in the morning. I said, no, no, we'll answer now. And I just sent an email back saying, I accept any conditions, I love you. They agreed on a time and place to meet, just the two of them, mother and daughter.

And I remember walking towards the bus stop where we agreed to meet and I was so nervous. When they finally saw each other, it was a bit stilted and formal. They'd not been around each other in this way for years. It was all unfamiliar and awkward. They shook hands. And so she came round the corner, you know, shawl over her head, and I wasn't quite sure, you know, I was apprehensive and I

wanted to touch her but it was definitely not a question of putting my arms around her because that would have been such an invasion of space. They started to walk up a hill and after half an hour, Huey's nerves started to dissolve. She was kind of able to undo so much in that initial meeting that had taken years and years and years to build up so much mistrust, so much hatred, so much anger. And then it was just melting away and melting away. And she was so soft and kind and non-confrontational. I told her so many things that I believed had happened to me or that she'd done to me or that others had done to me and she never got angry with me.

She wasn't defensive in any way. I was able to just be really open with her and we just had a really honest conversation. So even though I'd given her this 40-minute window, I think we chatted for like two and a half hours and then literally we were like back straight back to being so close we called each other all the time and had these we had these long mammoth like two hour phone sessions where it was like we would just talked about everything and anything and we're just

so close and it was really amazing. Step two of Stephen Hassan's strategy was complete. And there's a temptation to leave it there with Huey and Sarah. Often when I tell people about this story, they ask me, have they reunited with their families? It was one of the questions Mick Brown, the Telegraph journalist, asked me early on. He wasn't sure what had happened with them. And it's what people want to hear. A coincidental meeting, a joyful reunion, a neat and happy ending.

But the reality is much more complicated. The reunion is not the end of the story. It's just the end of a chapter. And it's the final chapter, I think, that makes this story so important. Step 3. Coming to terms with the idea that everything you had believed was wrong. You know, it was just obviously, you know, one of the best days of my life. It was just, you know, but it's, you know, I don't want anyone to think, you know, yes, I got Huey back five years ago, but having to talk to somebody for three hours a day for two years but because it goes back to Steve Hassan saying, you know, the third thing he said was the hardest thing is for them to come home because they have to accept that every single decision they made was wrong and you know Darling Huey for

you know for three years said you well, I completely accept that none of this happened, but something must have happened to me because I can't believe I could have been taken. And that's what's so frightening. So Huey has definitely accepted that nothing happened to her. But to take five years to come to that conclusion after you've been reunited with your family, it just shows how dangerous this mental abuse is. How do you think Huia's now?

Well, I think she's, you know, she's an incredible mother and a wonderful daughter, but you know, she's been, she does get triggered because, you know, that woman took away her self-belief. You know, when other young people between 22 and 32 were learning to love themselves and to grow up, that woman stole that from her. Ever since Huey reunited with her family, she's been trying to untangle herself from Anne's web, thread by thread. In the early days, she found help through a qualified and regulated psychotherapist.

He was very helpful to her. Huey says seeing him was a revelatory insight into what good, effective mental health support should be. And then about a year ago, I wanted to start dealing with Anne. So she went to see someone called Dr. Alex Stein, who helps people understand how to identify and protect themselves from recruitment to cults. She's destroyed people's lives, made them sick. And she's been a victim of a lot of violence. And she's been a victim lives, made them sick. And it doesn't just destroy the life of the person directly involved, it destroysrenches someone out of their social world

into this crazy world. When you first were told this story, did you recognize it immediately as a cult? Yes. Yeah. I mean, the fact that it was tiny and sort of informally structured doesn't really matter. It was a small group and it fit all my criteria of what a cult is. You know, there are cults everywhere. You may be going to yoga. You may join a running club. You may join a Christian study group. Yeah, it was not surprising to me in that way. You know, I hear these stories all the time

and there's so much more of this than people understand. Yeah, it's a real threat. It's a real threat to people. Dr Stein told me about a list of warning signs she's identified, things to look out for that suggest someone is engaging in a cultic relationship. And as I listened to that list, I felt the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. You know, don't see your old friends anymore because they're going to hold back your development and your progress. Warning signs include the leader being the only person with the answer. Only they can solve your problems.

Attempts to isolate you from existing relationships. You also isolate people from each other in the group. The leader creates conditions of extreme stress. And the leader's world, you state, is the good world. The best world and the only good world. And the world and the only good world, and the leader's the only good person, and everything else outside is negative. Then you arouse stress, threat, fear in the person.

Those who leave are shunned or pitied. The list goes on. And it takes a lot of bravery to speak about the perpetrator and about the group, because they've spent a lot of time telling you, you know, that you're gonna die if you break the rules. And so you have to work through that fear. And I think that must be what Huey is

confronting and it again I think it's really admirable. Good on you Huey. When Huey told Alex about what she'd been through with Anne it proved to be cathartic. But there were so many lightbulb moments in that first session with her where I was telling her all these things that Anne would teach me and the more she explained to me, the more I was like... I stopped feeling guilt that I was angry with Anne, I stopped feeling loyalty to Anne, I just felt so much anger because I was like, oh my god... She must have known what she was doing, but I swing in and out of it.

It's very hard. I've spoken with other cult experts too, to test what we've heard about Anne from her former clients. One, Daniel Shaw, a psychotherapist, believes that most cult leaders are often in denial about their own history of trauma, and their solution to that is what he calls a delusion of omnipotence. So in Anne's case, that's a belief in herself without any real credentials and without any real training, an entitlement to interpret and control other people

based on a delusion, an omnipotent kind of righteousness. The term he uses to refer to this type of character is the traumatizing narcissist. This is not a clinical or definitive diagnosis and of course I'm not qualified to make one. It's not my job. But when I think about Anne, what she was doing and why, there is one thing I'm clear on. The journey she took Huey and Tori on is not over. The sessions may have ended a long time ago now, but both of them are still dealing with the consequences. Hi, it's Fido. Start the semester with a new phone and a plan full of data without breaking your budget. We have everything you need for an A-plus year. Come check out our special back-to-school offers. They'll leave you with more cash in your pocket for the stuff you love. Select plans even include data overage protection so you can go all

out without going over. Don't wait. Our back-to- school offers are only available for a limited time. Go to Fido.ca or a Fido store near you and save all semester long. Fido, at your side. Let's face it, most meal replacements are rough on sensitive stomachs, not Sperry. Sperry is a complete plant-based meal crafted for better digestion. What makes Sperry different? It's 100% allergen-free with no dairy or harsh artificial ingredients. So it's gentle on your stomach and safe for all common food allergies and digestive issues. It's also packed with premium plant-based proteins to keep you satisfied,

plus all the essential nutrients for sustained energy. Try Sperry and get 15% off at Sperry.ca with code podcast 15. Sperry.ca with Code Podcast 15. Sperry. Trust nature. From her time with the horses in Spain, Tori went hitchhiking around the world. She said she put her experiences with Anne in a box in the back of her mind and hoped that the truth would emerge naturally as she roamed. She can't recall one definitive lightbulb moment, but she does remember when she put her head above the parapet. Her cousin sent her a message while she was in New Zealand that eventually led to a phone call. But it would take some time before Tory spoke directly to her brother, then her

dad, and longer still before she spoke to her mother. It was the first conversation she had chosen to have with her in nine years. When we spoke for these interviews last year, it was only the second time Tory had visited London since she left on her travels. And it was clear, like Hughie, she was only the second time Tori had visited London since she left on her travels. And it was clear, like Huey, she was still figuring out just how far into her mind and memory Anne's web extended. It was like actually only last night that... I'm gonna get upset. Yeah, it was only last night that I was able to actually write down the main things that I was believing that really were the anchor points of my work with

Anne for a better word. And yeah, last night was the first time I actually typed it out and sort of faced it in a way. So I think I'm still experiencing the effect of that. And I think there's like, yeah, a lot of feelings that I just like haven't wanted to feel or like confront or deal with or I'm yeah I'm still kind of like landing with it like but suddenly there's like a lot of emotion um and yeah probably a lot of sadness and I guess I didn't realize how much of an impact it had on me some somehow maybe because I just how much believing that yeah it had on me somehow. Maybe because I just...

How much believing that... Yeah, I thought, oh, okay, I sort of thought I was fine somehow, yeah. What first got me interested in this story was that a woman my age, from a similar world to mine, had gone missing for years because of what I heard was a rogue therapist figure. I wondered how that would be possible. Maybe it was an isolated story. But over the months that we've been investigating, it's become clear that Huey wasn't alone. After I sat down and listened to her story, and then Tory and Phypsy, we started to hear

from more former clients who had their own concerns about Anne Craig. They came to eight in total, and we know of more who chose not to speak about their experience. What emerged from these conversations was a theme of controlling unprofessional behaviour from the person they had sought help from. And so I became fixated on trying to find out what had motivated Anne to behave that way, as did the rest of my team. It was the question that drove the making of this podcast. The final one I asked every person I interviewed. What do you think it was that motivated Anne? I think it was a power thing.

Entrap and control people. It is certainly not unusual for it to happen. I think sometimes they just enjoy the power. Driven by their personalities and the needs of those unhappy and unhealthy personality types. It sounds to me like she's overcoming her own trauma and trying to make everybody else join her club. They might not admit that to themselves, but I think that often is a motivation. I suspect we wouldn't have been as fascinated by the inner workings and psychology that drove Anne if she was a man. I think I have, for better or worse, an inner propensity to expect and believe that men can intentionally do serious harm, whether it's dropping

bombs on civilian populations, sexual assault, ruthless lies in the workplace at the cost of others, forming cults to manipulate people for their own personal gain. But women and malice, women knowingly doing serious harm. My knee-jerk response is to try and find a reason why that might not be true, an excuse for why they did it, or even a man who might be manipulating them. It's a kind of inverse sexism against my own, I think. I went round and round with that thought process a lot in the making of this. And at times, I felt concerned about Anne, in the way I don't think I would have worried about a man.

But the fact is that two young women lost years of their young lives to isolation and misery under her unwavering mission, and she destroyed their families in the process. And more than that it's clear from spending time with Huey and Tory, both now well into their 30s, that they're still searching for the footing they lost in this world and in their families and for the self-belief that Anne denied them. So what in the end do I think about Anne's motivations? Well, towards the end of our reporting, it felt like the right time to speak to her and ask her directly.

I'd always hoped to sit down with Anne and hear her side of the story. So we sent her a letter explaining what we'd been working on and asking if she'd be open to an interview. And then we waited. Her response via her lawyer made it clear an interview would not be happening. So instead we sent her a list of the allegations that had been made against her and a set of questions we hoped she'd answer. Questions like, are you still practising as a teacher of personal development? What motivated you in your work with clients? As we were writing this episode, we got a reply.

In a long letter from her lawyers, Anne Craig claims it is abundantly clear that we've been told inaccurate and incorrect information by those who feature in this podcast. Anne disputes or vehemently denies almost everything Huey, Tory and Fipsy have told us. She claims that the allegations are baseless, false and defamatory. The details? Fabrications. The letter argues that because the police investigated Anne in 2014 and found no evidence of criminality, that it therefore means our investigation is of no purpose. But this was at a time when Huey and Tory were still having sessions with Anne, writing letters of support in her defense. In the lawyer's letter, Anne says of Huey that she's prone to exaggeration and had difficulty with the truth.

When I read this, I was interviewing him, the Telegraph journalist Mick Brown told me that Anne had said something very similar of Fipsy in 2017, at a time when Fipsy had left her, but Tory and Huey were still seeing Anne. One of the few things Anne does admit to is instructing her clients to burn the writing they did for her. She says solely for confidentiality purposes. She refutes that her actions have had damaging and lasting consequences. And she refused to answer any of my questions, including the one about whether she's still working. So there it is. No answers from Anne on why she did this. So I can't know what motivated her. And she's definitely not offered any form of admission or apology, that's for sure. But I think what her lawyer's letter does make clear to me is that whatever it is that drives her has made her either blind to the damage caused

or has given her the conviction to willfully ignore it. After speaking to everyone involved in the story and the experts who have commented on it, it seems to me that a part of Anne may have believed in the lies she was feeding her clients, but that at the same time she was also actively seeking more and more destructive power over these young women and over their families. And if she genuinely believed in and was concerned by this endemic sex abuse being covered up by the English upper middle class, then I can't make sense of why she aligned

her own personal life so closely to that exact tiny world whilst encouraging her clients to cut all ties with it. Ultimately though, we can't have total clarity on why she did this. But what I do have clarity on is that the impact she had on her clients, in particular on Huey and Tori, is a world away from what trained therapists, coaches

and counsellors would want for their clients. And that really is what matters. That and the fact that she was able to do harm and to keep doing harm. Because there will be others out there like Anne with their own set of motivations, who are treating paying clients and have access to their minds without the knowledge or training

of what to do with that privilege. When I spoke with Dr Stein, she said that one of the problems is that we don't have any useful laws. Huey's mum Sarah agrees, and she's actually been campaigning for that to change. She's very clear that the way Anne behaved was coercive and controlling and there is legislation that covers that kind of behavior but as it stands it only applies to relationships that are intimate or within families so it's just not possible to apply that law to a relationship like Anne had with her clients.

Sarah is not alone in thinking that the law around coercive control is too narrow and she's got the support of some politicians to push for change but it's been slow work. And even if there was an amendment to the law, there will always be loopholes. Arguably, a better way to start is to deal with a prevention rather than a cure. Because for Anne and for other untrained, unregulated individuals doing harm under the guise of the title of healer, counselor, therapist, analyst, or self-development teacher, there is very, very little to stop them.

The therapy and wellness industry is booming, and like booming industries before it, it can be a wild west. In this case of people who are not qualified to be entrusted with our mental health. There is also a wealth of trained and regulated practitioners out there who are qualified and are trustworthy and who are there to help make our lives better. So be careful, be careful who you choose to trust with your mind and your memories. Don't leave, I never wanna be apart But man, you took the words right out on me What would you like to come out of you telling your story? I'd really just want to be part of raising awareness around mind manipulation and to be part of raising awareness of what that looks like and for my children to know exactly what

that looks like. If Anne is working with other people that I just hope she's not working with other people but I think there's a fear that maybe she is. But I'm not on a mission to hurt Anne or ruin her life. I'm just wanting to tell my truth. So for me, it's my anger towards Anne for not having proper training, for believing that just because she broke down a company and put it back together that she could do that with

people and people's brains and she didn't put me back together. Yeah I'd really like to see change that people no longer have the power to work with people when they don't have the proper credentials to do so. That's my answer. If you'd like to get in touch with us about your own experience, you can send us an email. It's dangerousmemories at tortoismedia.com If you're looking to speak to a reputable therapist or know someone who is, you can search the therapist directory compiled by the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy or BACP.

Only registered members accredited by the Professional Standards Authority are listed, which ensures they meet high professional and ethical standards and are fully trained and qualified. Just go to bacp.co.uk. Thank you for listening to Dangerous Memories. If you want to hear more of our investigations, you can listen to previous series right here on Tortoise Investigates. To hear more from Tortoise's award-winning newsroom, you can search for Tortoise wherever you get your podcasts. You can get early access and ad-free listening to all Tortoise shows by subscribing to Tortoise Plus or downloading the Tortoise app.

Dangerous Memories was written and reported by me, Grace Eusallet, and by Gary Marshall. The producer is Gary Marshall. Additional reporting and production from Imogen Harper. Fact Checking was by Xavier Greenwood. Sound design and original composition from Tom Kinsella. The theme music is Far Gone Don't Leave by Pictish Trail. Podcast artwork by Lola Williams. The commissioning editor was Basher Cummings. The executive producer was Kerry Thomas. TORTUS Hi, it's Fido. Start the semester with a new phone and a plan full of data without breaking your budget. We have everything you need for an A-plus year. Come check out our special back-to-school offers. They'll leave you with more cash in your pocket for the

stuff you love. Select plans even include data overage protection so you can go all out without going over. Don't wait. Our back-to-school offers are only available for a limited time. Go to Fido.ca or a Fido store near you and save all semester long. Fido, at your side. Let's face it, most meal replacements are rough on sensitive stomachs, not Sperry. Sperry is a complete plant-based meal crafted for better digestion. What makes Sperry different? It's 100% allergen-free with no dairy or harsh artificial ingredients.

So it's gentle on your stomach and safe for all common food allergies and digestive issues. It's also packed with premium plant-based proteins to keep you satisfied, plus all the essential nutrients for sustained energy. Try Sperry and get 15% off at Sperry.ca with code podcast 15. Sperry Trust Nature.