WHOA That's Good Podcast - Being Honest Is More Important than Being Liked | Sadie Robertson Huff | Matt Redman | Maisey Redman

Episode Date: July 17, 2024

Sadie sits down with Grammy-winning singer-songwriter and author Matt Redman and his daughter, Maisey. Sadie is thrilled that Maisey has just moved to West Monroe, and Matt and Maisey reveal some of the funny and surprising stories behind the creation of some of Matt’s most famous songs. Sadie emphasizes the importance of practicing what you preach and the effect it can have on the next generation. Matt and Maisey share their struggles to find their own way in a culture that prizes vanity above authenticity. Matt's album "Coming Back to the Heart" is available to stream and purchase now. https://magicspoon.com/whoa — I’m so excited for the launch of Treats. Scoop up these new crispy, crunchy, protein-packed Treats in your nearest grocery store. https://www.12vc.com/sister — Commit to the 12 Verse Challenge and help fund 12 Verses of Scripture a year for people who have little to no access to Scripture! https://drinkag1.com/whoa — Get a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D3+K2 AND 5 free AG1 Travel Packs with your first subscription! https://liberty.edu/Sadie — Get your application fee WAIVED when you start your future with Liberty University today! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, World That's Good fam? Happy Wednesday, everybody. I hope you're having a great week, but per usual, friends, it is about to get so much better because I have two incredible guests today. This is so unique and so special. One of my guests is in the house. We have Maisie Redmond and then her father, Via Online. We have Matt Redmond. Thank you guys so much for coming on

the podcast. Absolute pleasure. This is going to be fun. This is going to be really fun. If you haven't noticed by Matt's accent, we actually have two British accents on the podcast. So you're welcome everyone listening. This might be the best podcast ever. But Maisie, actually, tell everybody a little bit about why you're here. Yes, so I was here in April. Got to meet you guys for the first time here doing a podcast with my mom.

So it's amazing. In the space of four months, I did a podcast with mom and dad. And it was cool. Yes, I was here doing the podcast, and I was in the car with your mom and I had just finished the job I was doing. And she was asking me, what's the vision for your life?

What things do you want to do? And pretty much everything I told her that day in the car was everything that she was praying for, everything that she was looking for, which is unbelievable. And so basically two weeks after that, she phoned me up and said, how would you feel about moving to Westmoreland Row? And yeah, do you remember that? Do you remember that? It was just totally... Love it. It was a beautiful left turn. Yeah. It was completely out of nowhere. And yet it felt so right and so complimentary to what God was doing in my life at that point. So I ended up moving here. It really was crazy. I have to say, and we've talked about this before.

I think we actually talked about this in one of the recent podcasts that when it's a God thing, there's normally not just you involved, right? It's like, he has the whole body involved. So all of a sudden, what you're praying for is what someone else is praying for. And it was crazy, because I remember asking you about your life

at dinner that night, and you were just talking and I'm thinking, this is everything my mom and I had been saying we need. But it was like too good to be true. I'm like, is she like an angel that just fell right into our life? But it was really sweet because we also have a good relationship with you, Matt,

and Beth, and it was really cool because you have been helping Ella worship, write some songs. So I got to meet you a couple couple years ago in a songwriting thing. So God just kind of weaved our stories together and our family's lives together. We're grateful that y'all felt good about Maisie coming to Louisiana, even though y'all are all the way in California. Thank you, Dad. It's definitely a different culture to anything we've lived in before and she's loving it. I'm loving it.

It's so special seeing her there. And yeah, we had the LO Worship guys out here recently for another songwriting retreat. Beautiful time. They're such great people. I love what you guys are doing. So special, so special. Well, I have so much I want to talk to you about because, Matt, you know, you just had a new album come out with some of your old songs, some of the most incredible worship songs. I have to say, it really is special. You are like a true humble giant because you're so humble. People know your name, but they might not realize all the songs you've written. Christian and I even recently looked up Matt Redmond's songs

just to see, you know, how many we knew and I was like, oh my gosh, I think I know all of these songs. I was amazed by how many songs you've written on, you've led and just so grateful for all the things that you've done and continue to do. So I can't wait to talk to you about your new album. But first I'm gonna ask both of y'all the question.

I ask everyone who comes on the Whoa That's Good podcast just to get us started. Now, this question comes in hot. People don't always, people aren't always ready for it. So take a minute to ponder if you need. But Matt, we'll start with you. What is the best piece of advice that you have ever been given?

You know, I don't know if I'm allowed to have advice from someone who's dead and been dead for a long time but there's this guy called Francois Fenelon. Is that allowed? Does that have to be someone who's in your life? May I just really quickly interject. I know as soon as Sadie said that you were gonna bring up someone from like 300 years ago. That is so on-brand for you, you know. So, hey, dead people are totally fair game. I love it. Oh, amazing. Okay. Then if we can do dead people, Francois Fenelon, okay. He was this French guy. He was a spiritual advisor to one of the King Louis of France. And he just said, make yourself little in the depths of your heart. So, I love

the poetry of that, but also how profound it is. Make yourself little in the depths of your heart. So I love the poetry of that, but also how profound it is. Make yourself little in the depths of your heart. It reminds me of John the Baptist talking about Jesus saying, he must become greater, I must become less. One version of the Bible says, he must become greater and greater, I must become less. And I just think it changes everything about your life if you make yourself little in the depths of your heart. If you're in the room and you don't have to be the one having your way, you don't have to be the loudest voice or the one controlling everything. If you're, before God, it makes a difference in worship.

I think it just changes everything about your life, if you can take that advice. And I love it that he was giving that advice to a king. He was this king on his throne with all his power and his fame and fortune. He's saying, you know what, here's some advice. Make yourself little in the depths of your heart. I just thought it was a little phrase I heard a couple of decades ago and it's lived with me a lot. Gosh, I love that. You know it's so cool. Like that's my favorite question to ask people for many reasons. One, because we all get the advice as well. It's passed on. It's always something good. But really why I love to ask that question is because when you, someone

like yourself who has had great influence and you know, we've gotten to see your life from afar, it's typically the best piece of advice that you were given that it's so marks your life that I almost could have guessed it. You know, like I've never heard that phrase, but right before you said that I I called you a humble giant. That's so true of who you are. You've made yourself little, even though you are so known. And it's so cool, because so many of your songs that are sung around the world, if people looked up

your songs right now, they'd probably be amazed, because you don't, and I don't think that you'll be offended by this. I hope that you're encouraged by this. You don't think of you, you think of the experience you had in that worship moment with God, which I think is extraordinary. And I want to dive into that more. So Maisie, I'll let you go and then we'll dive into a great conversation.

Yeah, mine would be from this really sweet couple who mentored me in college. I met them on a prayer call and then I think at that point I had really come back to Jesus and I had such an intrigue and a wonder even into the words he was speaking. So I found his email and I emailed him and ended up mentoring me through college. And I remember he told me something that literally changed my life. He said to me, do not be blown by the wind of man, be blown by the wind of God. Wow. Changed my life forever.

Because I thought I really do let my decisions be dictated by people's opinions, people's thoughts. You know, it's a natural inclination when you're about to do something, you go and seek the counsel of your friends or your parents. And I found more often than not that those opinions became the reasons why I made decisions. Wow. And I know that God speaks about that in the Bible too. And so, I feel like when He said that, that changed so much for me, especially even coming to West Monroe.

Yeah. Everyone's got their opinion. Oh, don't move there. There's nothing there. A lot of people tell me that. I feel like this was one of the first times where I was like, Lord, if you are, if you're wanting me to go there, I pray your wind would blow me there. And I know that if it's from you, it's going to be.

Wow. I'm going to know that it's from you and I want to be blown by your wind. Don't want to be blown by other people's wind. Wow. That is so good because that truly takes an intentional shift of mindset, you know? Because like you said, it's so natural to be blown by the wind of people.

That's what's in your life. That's what you're hearing the most. And it takes so much more intention to get with the Lord and to hear. It makes me think of the story where God wasn't in the big earthquake and the this and the that, but He was in the whisper of the wind. I just used that phrase to Christian this morning because I was telling him, I've been praying about this certain thing and I felt like radio silence. I just wasn't hearing anything back. God, what do you want? I'm sitting here, I'm listening, I'm coming praying about this certain thing and I felt like radio silence. Like I just wasn't hearing anything back.

Like, God, what do you want? Like I'm sitting here, I'm listening, I'm coming back to this place, I'm listening, I need your guidance and time's ticking and I'm starting to get to the point where I really need to hear from you. And this morning I told Christian, I said, I heard him in a whisper last night.

I was like, it was a whisper, but I heard him. And it's so cool because to some people listening on the podcast, you might be like, I've never experienced that. I've never heard the voice of the Lord. What does it even feel like or look like to be blown by the wind of God? And so I would just ask you, now that we're on this,

what does that feel like for you? When you're making a decision, moving to West Monroe, Louisiana, and everyone in your life, not everyone, but a lot of people are going, you're crazy. Why would you move there? There's so many opportunities everywhere else. How do you articulate feeling the wind blowing you

in this direction? Yeah, that's such a good question. And I used to do a lot of summer camps, and that was the question most of the girls asked. It's like, how do you know if it's God's voice? How do you know if he's speaking to you? How do you know if He's speaking to you? How do you know if He's telling you something? I just think for me, it feels unlike any other feeling

you're ever gonna have because God is supernatural and He's God and He's unlike anyone else and so I know that when he's speaking it's a feeling unlike anything else. But it's not like I get blown out my window and I fall on the floor. It's not even like that. I feel like even in his discipline he speaks so tenderly and I love what he said about the whisper. It can be like the smallest sense of feeling. But I feel like it's a sense where I know my father is speaking, I know he's speaking to me. And it's not audible, but I know in my heart, I felt with, yeah, like you were saying, even coming here, I've had many other moments where I felt there was a lot more confirmation to go somewhere. But I knew that it was from God. And I can say that confidently and I wouldn't say that if I didn't believe.

I knew that it was from Him because I felt such a stillness in my spirit. And I know in the Bible it says, I am not the God of confusion, but of peace. I wasn't confused about West Monroe. I wasn't confused. It doesn't mean I didn't have questions. I had questions,, but of peace. I wasn't confused about West Monroe. I wasn't confused. It doesn't mean I didn't have questions. I had questions, but I had peace and I knew I had stillness, that whisper. And I knew that He was calling me.

That's so good. I love that so much. Friends, did you know that there are over a billion people who don't have access to scripture in their own language? And there are so many people out there without access to any scripture, and that's why I want to invite you to join the scripture translation movement with Illuminations 12 Verse Challenge. Illuminations is a partnership of 11 leading Bible translation agencies who work together to solve Bible poverty in our generation. Originally, this work could have taken over 150 years, but now, get this, it is projected to be finished by 2033, which is absolutely amazing.

If you wanna help with this amazing mission, here's how you do it. Take the 12 Verse Challenge. For $35 a month, you can help fund 12 verses of scripture per year for people who have little or no access to it. And our goal as the Woe That's Good family is to fund the equivalent of four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, for a population that doesn't have the word in their own language. Y'all are seriously the best, and we've never done anything like this together as a Woe That's Good fam.

And I think it would be absolutely amazing if we can rally around this and do this. I actually got to go to Guatemala with illuminations and hand deliver a Bible to the Achi people who didn't have it in their language. It was one of the most impactful things I've ever seen and got to be a part of. It was just amazing. You hear this number, like a billion people don't have scripture.

Then when you get to see that up close, it really moves you and you understand just the power of what it means to give someone the gift of Scripture. And so I am all the way behind this movement and I would love for you to help out. If the Will That's Good fam could do this, that would be so amazing. So how do you join it? Again, pull out your phone, click the link in the show notes, or go to 12vc.com slash sister and commit to the 12 verse challenge. That's the number one, the number two, vc.com slash sister and commit to the 12 verse challenge.

That's the number one, the number two, vc.com slash sister. Friends, we are in this until everyone, everywhere has access to God's word. Visit the number 12, vc.com slash sister to join the movement today. So one of the reasons why I wanted to have both of y'all on the podcast, because Matt, I could have you on the podcast and interview you and we could talk forever about all the songs and albums and stories and I want to. And Maisie, I could have you individually on the podcast and talk about that. But I think one thing that I feel like is so beautiful and significant is this is

something I so long to have with my girls one day. Because I think when people do ministry, it's as sad that you think this, but you're afraid, what if my kids like present God for some reason because of what I do? And you hear these stories all the time and the kids grew up and they don't love God. And it's like so devastating and sad.

And I just so don't want that to be my story. And so when I see people like you, Matt, you and Beth and the lives that you've led and lived, and then you have your kids underneath you and Maisie who loves God so wholeheartedly, like it's just so cool to have you both on, to hear from a family who, it's not like y'all just do ministry.

You love Jesus, you love the Lord, you love the church. And it's so refreshing. And so I just think having y'all both on and hearing from both your hearts is so beautiful. So one of the questions I wanted to ask you, Matt, was, you know, I want to talk about the heart of worship and the song. But before I do that, how do you lead a family to the heart of worship? Oh, that's a great question. It's such an interesting thing when you're on stage a lot and you're in front of people, but at the end of the day, you want your kids to think

you're the real deal. Because a lot of the time, you're putting music out, or you're on a stage, and there's people saying nice things about you. And honestly, songwriting is interesting because songs go so deep in people's hearts, then you get a really nice encouragement back from them, right? Especially in the days of social media. I don't really go a day where I don't get some kind of encouragement in my life. Mm. But, and that's meaningful, but it wouldn't mean a lot to me if my kids thought, yeah, but you're a hypocrite or, yeah, but you don't, you know, you're not really that person or, so it's kind of, yeah, it's kind of a big deal for me that I wouldn't want, you't want my life to contradict what I've been trying to bring my kids up

in about Jesus. At the end of the day, it's all grace, right? I'm just doing my best as a parent, Beth's doing her best as a parent, and it's all grace. Seeing God's grace on, for example, like you said, Maisie. What a wonderful thing to see her feeding on the Word of God, listening to the Spirit of God, thinking about the kingdom of God, making all her life decisions around that. And it's kind of cool for me, it's like, that's just the grace of God in her life, and that's one amazing blessing that is to

me and Beth to see that. And we couldn't manipulate that or make that happen. He's done that in her life and she said her yes to him. And they say, God doesn't have any grandchildren, right? We're all His children. So, He can't. She has to find her faith with Him. And as a parent, that is the best feeling when you see that your kid has, or your daughter, your son, or whoever has chosen Jesus and chose to fashion their life around Him. That's an amazing feeling. I love that. Well, it's so cool because Maisie texted me your new album that came out and I was so excited. I immediately went to listen. This was before I think we had this podcast

on the books that Maisie was like, I think you'll like this song, it's Let Me See Jesus. And then we were talking about it and hearing her talk about hearing a song you wrote was so special. Cause she was like, I just was weeping in my car because this is the, like these are the words the church needs. Like this is the, this is what we all want to say back

to God. And it was so cool because it was like you or her father but also not the words were just the words. The truth was just the truth. And then I started asking her a little bit more about that. And she's like, yeah, like he lives it out. And my mom always says that. She's always like, the best thing for you to do

for your kids is to live an honest life. Like if you're gonna say it, you gotta walk it because they can sniff out the fake. You know, they see the hypocritical stuff. And so it's just so worth it to just live an honest life, one of integrity that goes such a long way. And so I love that you said that. And it's very obvious that you guys live that, not that we're perfect. We, I got to, you know, sit, have dinner with Beth and Maisie and Beth is hilarious. And

y'all are the first to admit that y'all are human. But man, The Gracie Guide is so good. I love that you say it's like, it's like, you know, you're listening to this song for the first time and it's your dad who wrote it, but he's also not your dad. That's really fascinating. I know, cause it's cool. I think about that a lot.

I think about that a lot. It was just like truth that you needed, which goes back to just like these songs are truths. And I wanna talk about why you recorded old songs again, because you are still a songwriter. I mean, like I mentioned, you wrote with Ella Worship, but you write every day. Like that's what you do.

If you look up your songs, like I mentioned, it's not just from years ago, there are so many current songs that the church is singing right now that might not know you were the writer on, but you write songs all the time. So you could have very well recorded a new album of new songs, but you recorded a new album of old songs. And so why now? And what led you to that decision?

Yeah, I mean, I've got decades of songs now, right? And sometimes some of the older ones, you stop singing them so much and some of them you're hardly singing at all. During lockdown a while back, I noticed a couple of the songs were having a resurgence. Just people were telling me and a few different ways I knew that and particularly Heart of Worship and maybe something about that opening line, you know, when the music fades, all is stripped away. I think maybe that line resonated with people. I have people come in from these worship gatherings with like 17 and 18 year olds and they'd say,

hey, we just started doing Heart of Worship and everyone's coming up saying, hey, where did you get that new song from? Did you write it? I thought that is so cool. There's like a generation who have no clue this song exists. So we decided, yeah, let's honestly, how it began, the idea was for this kind of live collection album, was this was gonna be my 20th album. So I thought, oh, I'm gonna record 20 songs. It'd be 20th album, we'll call it 20. And then I thought, you know what?

I don't really wanna record 20 songs, that's a lot of songs. And then I thought, I don't really want to record 20 songs. That's a lot of songs. And then I thought, I don't really want to call the album 20 because Adele calls her album numbers, Brooklyn, G-Wheel calls her album numbers. It's not, you know, it's been done, right? So then I decided, oh, you know what? Coming back to the heart, that would be great. Cause it's saying like we revisit the songs.

But from day one on the record, we thought, let's not try and be over clever and dress these songs up and, you know, kind of be over the top creatively. The idea is just to present these in a 2024 way, in a way that hopefully they live. And we felt like the way we could bring freshness to the record was by some little medleys.

So we put like face down with better is one day, because they're in the same key, the same tempo, and they're both about reverence and presence. And that was a cool one because at the end of it we managed to, we were like, so we can actually sing two sections of these songs completely over each other. And then other songs, Never Let Go with Never Once, again, same key, same theme, why not just put them together. So that was the idea behind the whole thing.

I love it. I love it so much. I've had so many moments with Heart of Worship. I mean, just even praying those lyrics before conferences that I've led, before times that I've spoken. That song and Holy Spirit have been my two go-to songs before I speak. Because I just want to get in the heart posture of like, you know, if you take it all away, I just want, I just want you, I would just want to come back to the heart. I want it to be a pure thing. And I want to invite your spirit into this room.

So those two songs have been like my go-to, not only songs, but prayers. What were you going to say? No, I was going to say, dad, if you would like to, I'd really want you to tell the story of the Hothwarship, how you wrote it, because that is my favorite story. I tell that story actually quite a lot. And I think it would also bring even more beauty to how much it means to you as well. Oh, please do.

Would that be okay? Yeah, okay. I'll have a go. If I miss any bits out, you can probably take it from there. I'll let you know, Dad. I was in a church where we really valued worship music. It was kind of a big deal, but it felt like we've gone off course a bit because it had become like a consumer activity or how creative can we get?

I like this song, I don't like that one. I like this worship leader, I don't like that one. And just felt like, I think we lost the plot here. There was a sense that something was missing, I guess. And the church did a really brave thing. They said, you know what, we want to get back on track here. And so what we're going to do,

we're just going to get in a room with our voices and our Bibles and our hearts for a bit, not even a band or a sound system. And we're going to see if we can still find our way to the place of praise. We're going to still see, okay, can I actually bring God an offering with all the props and all the fancy stuff, you know? And so, I just wrote this little song, went back to my apartment, and … How old were you at that time? I don't know, 21 maybe.

Wow. And for me, it was just like this heart cry, because I felt grieved. You know, I felt like, oh man, you know, I'm the worship leader here. I'm part of this story. We've gone off track a bit and I do want it to be all about Jesus and I don't want to be about me, myself, and I. What can I get out of this? I want to bring him an offering. And so, this little song poured out. I didn't spend a lot of time fashioning it, to be honest. It kind of poured out and I thought it wasn't congregational. I was never going to lead that song. I thought it was just my own little personal response. And then we decided, let's just do it one time to kind of mark the season in our church.

And then it took off. And the weird thing to me was when it started flying around the global church, because I knew for sure those churches hadn't been doing the same thing of get rid of the sound system, get in a room, but the Holy Spirit had been doing the same thing. He'd been reminding his church, hey, we've got off track a bit here. Like, what is this about? Who is this about? What should this look like? And that's the thing about the God that we worship, isn't it? He prescribes so much of what He wants from us. You know, it's interesting in Acts, the Book of Acts, I think chapter 15, but where, you know, he finds this inscription to an unknown God. And I think, like, how would you ever worship a God like that? You wouldn't know anything about them. You wouldn't

know why they were worthy. You wouldn't know what they'd done to be worthy of a claim, right, or anything about their heart, character, you know, but that's not the situation we're in in worship. We're in a situation where God's given us a whole book to say, here's how I like to be worshiped. Here's what I desire. Here's what I require from you. Here's what my heart's like. Here's what my ways are like. Hey, these are my names. And you know, in each of my names, it will tell you a lot about who I am. Here's my deeds. Here's my mighty works." He's given us page after page after page of reasons He's worthy and how He would like to

be worshiped. And so, I think that's where ultimately heart of worship comes from. It says in Ephesians 5-10, find out what pleases the Lord. And that's what we're meant to be doing as the church, right? Find out what pleases the Lord. He's told us what means a lot to him. So let's make sure our worship looks like that. Let's make sure in our lives of worship and our gathered worship, it actually reflects what he's requiring of us. Wow. That's so good.

That is so cool. Maisie, I'm so glad you asked. This is why it's good to have a daughter on because she can ask the questions and fill in the gaps and please keep asking because we want to hear stories like that. It's amazing. One thing I think is cool is how you said, like, I didn't think I was going to lead that

to the congregation and then you did and then it hit the global church. And I have to say opposite to kind of what y'all were experiencing, I grew up in a church that we didn't have instruments. So we only sang acapella. And what I think is really crazy is I didn't, whenever I was like 17 is when I first started kind of opening

my eyes to see, I guess, a bigger view of God. I kind of broke the boxes that I had put God in and just stopped being so religious and actually had a relationship with God, which also opened the door for me to listen to different worship music and all the things. But what's actually really significant is your songs, I grew up singing, like I knew all of those songs.

So it's really cool because I actually didn't know a lot of songs in the global church, I feel like. I feel like once I came out at 17 into the world, I was like, what? I didn't even know all these songs, like Hillsong and. ["Hillsong"] Keeping up with all the different health fads and trends is exhausting and discouraging,

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Passion, all this stuff, I had not heard of it, but for some reason, a lot of your songs, we sang in our church even without the music because you didn't need them. And then Maisie was telling- That's fascinating. I know, isn't that crazy? Like the, never let go, we sang that, we sang heart of worship, we sang 10,000 reasons, like all these things. And even at my school, which was also a Church of Christ school, so we didn't typically

listen to music with instruments and stuff, we sang these songs. So you knew the harmonies too, right? Oh yeah, you know it. Cause you had to learn the harmonies. Oh you know it. That's right, I was always that alto. Because you had to learn armies. Oh, you know it. And their instruments, yeah. That's right. I was always that alto.

Love it. But listen, it's just so cool because Maisie also said when she was in Africa for a time, they were singing these songs. In Zambia. Like in Zambia. In the middle of the bush in this like mud heart church and they were singing the songs and I could not believe it. I mean, it's just crazy.

So what do you think that is? Because Maisie pointed out something to me that I hadn't really thought about. Like you're one of the only worship leaders. Like you don't have like a ton of merch. It wasn't like you had like tons of marketing. Like you were putting out these songs that really you thought might just be for you. And all of a sudden they swept around the entire world,

no matter what denomination you were, no matter what country you lived in. What is that? How do you explain that? Did that blow your mind? Speak into that a little bit. Yeah, honestly, that is something that doesn't ever get old. Because like Maisie says, you hear from some in the bush in Africa where you think your

song's never going to reach, or maybe an orphanage in the back streets of Delhi or something in India or, you know, so many places. Honestly, one of the most profound for me was with 10,000 Reasons. I mean, that song's found its way to a lot of unusual places. But I was reading the Times newspaper a few years back, and it was talking about these drug traffickers who were on death row for drug trafficking offenses they committed years before. They were going to the firing squad, and they'd become Christians.

They'd become full-on worshipers of Jesus, but they still had to face the consequence. As they were on death row, they were singing 10,000 Reasons, like facing the firing squad. I mean, firstly, I thought, man, that's a worship leader. If you can face down the barrel of a gun and still be found with a song of hope and praise and faith and trust on your lips, I mean, wow. That's just an amazing example for all of us, right? If you can do that, I think you can pretty much face anything in life, go through anything in life, and still be found with that song. But also, it

just wowed me in terms of how did that song get there? How did that song get into this prison and into their hearts and into this moment? It just sometimes feels like the hugest privilege. I don't need to bring any momentum to these songs. My job is to write the songs. I'm going to pour my heart out before God. If He wants to breathe on any of them, then wonderful. Sometimes it's an interesting thing in life. Bible talks about starting something in the spirit, but then going into the flesh. There can, and there can be that temptation of, you know, especially after a big song,

like 10,000 Reasons, you know, it flew all around the place and pretty quick. And then there's pressure from certain people, maybe with a record label or something, hey, how can we do that again? I'm like, I don't know, you know, all I can do is try and write a song. And if God wants to breathe on that, he will. And yeah, some of the ways these songs have found their way around the world or into people's hearts in some of their most intense moments, it's just the hugest privilege. I think that that's so great because I feel like nowadays, and maybe I think social media

has definitely egged this on. I'm sure it was like this before, but it's that, you know, you want to get the song that goes viral. You know, you want to put out the song that people are using on their TikTok or on their reels or I feel like there's such a, you know, this thing inside of you. And maybe it's always been there for just human nature that when you put it out, you want to see it succeed and you want to see it succeed in a quick way. But even for

10,000 reasons, Maisie was telling me that wasn't like it wasn't actually like that. Like it took time before that song even. It's not immediate and you weren't even really going to be, I think, was that maybe the song you weren't even going to put on the album, right? Yeah, it was. Don't, don't, don't, don't tell to put on the album, right? Yeah, it was. Are you about to tell, don't tell the story about the first time I had 10,000 Reasons. Tell the story. No, you mustn't.

You mustn't. Maisie to this day, she's like, no, this is, Maisie, it's time. I think it's time for the world to know. This is time. It's time for the world to know that Maisie doesn't like the song 10,000 Reasons. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no the song. No, no, no, no, no, no. Hold on. Hold on a minute. Sorry. We were having such a reverent chat.

We've gone off track now. This is ridiculous. No, let me hold on. Hold on, hold on. Let me say, let me say. OK, you can tell the story of when I first heard the song. Let me say now that song is a treasure in my life now. OK, it's been redeemed.

But in the beginning, it wasn't. And it stood on it for a second. That's right. That's what I said said i think i think her exact words were dad i don't know what all the nonsense is about i don't think that song's even in your top 50 songs oh my god that's one of the worst songs i ever heard what i did i said that wait no i was like 12 came out 11 or 12 how i would have been quite young. It was on the way to school or something like that. What was it?

I found it boring. But honestly, here's the thing. Here's the thing now. As a 23-year-old woman, I now look back and I think, I'll just say this, Dad. I would describe you as a hymn writer. Genuinely, I think you're a hymn writer. Like genuinely, I think you're, you're a hymn writer. You don't just write songs that you, you write hymns. Like they, even when Sadie asked you, like you asked you for wisdom, um, in the beginning, like, what was that piece of advice or whatever? And you had said, I knew you were going to say something about history, but I love that about you, that you're writing songs that I know are going to be sung for thousands, like hundreds and hundreds of

years. I know that and you're not trying to do that, which is the most beautiful thing. Your sweet maze. But I love the song now. I love the song now. Well, I would say in Maisie's defense, in Maisie's defense here, that song's only got four chords. It doesn't have a pre-chorus. It doesn't have a bridge. I didn't think it was finished and I wasn't going to put it on the album. And it was only Nathan Nockles, who's the producer. I played it to him. He said, I don't care what song we're dropping off, that song's going on the record. And I was like, really? I don't even think it's

finished, mate. And he's like, look, trust me, that song's going on the record. I get it. I get it now. And so it is funny. It is funny that, you know, Heart of Worship, 10,000 Reasons, both of them, I wasn't going to use at all. Wow. So it's kind of cool. But you know what I think, to that point, to what you said, if you're a hymn writer and you're writing songs that could last hundreds of years, those are the songs that don't normally

take off fast in general. But I think sometimes when you write songs to have like a quick response of like going viral, sometimes those are also the songs that are quickly forgotten, right? Because it's like, oh, it's like exciting, and then it's not, it's trendy, and then it's not. But when you write songs that are written in truth,

truly from an overflow of your own heart of worship that are rooted in biblical truth and true experience of who God is and worship of who God is, then that stands the test of time. That's a song you actually sing hundreds of years from now. Like truly generations away from us can be singing those songs because it will still be true. It will still be relevant.

Those four chords will still be ones that people are using. And it wasn't just an on-trend moment. And so I actually think that there's a lot of significance to that. Do you think as a writer still to this day and helping others write, is that something that you try to instill in writers? Like when you go into a write as almost a mentor,

at this point you're a mentor to so many people and so in writers. Like when you go into a right as almost a mentor at this point, you're a mentor to so many people and so many writers. I think for us, I remember when you said yes to doing a right with us, that was like a dream scenario. We couldn't believe it. We were like, wow, we are going to get to learn from him. Like we just wanted to learn from you. As much as we wanted to write with you, we wanted to learn from you. What are things that you're wanting to teach the church in writing worship songs? Yeah, for me, the power of truth, you cannot underestimate it, right? And so if you're going to write a worship song that doesn't have a sense of powerful truth in it, you're missing something. It'd be like in a card game, you're not playing your most powerful

card. You're not playing your best card, if it's all right to give an example like that. I love it. Yeah. That would be crazy. Sometimes we've got to lean into our distinctives and our strengths. I think in worship, for me, the distinctives are presence and truth. We're a people of His presence. We're not just people in a room singing some songs together. We're expecting to encounter God with the people of God in the presence of God, pouring out the praise of God. And the other thing is the power of truth. Like when you sing truth, it transcends a lot of things. It can cut

across genres. It can cut across cultural boundaries. It can cut across generations. That's why we sing some of those hymns still that were written 200, 250 years ago. Because they ring true with us. We don't have a life like the writer. They didn't have a car. They didn't have internet. They didn't have all this stuff. But something rings true, like even centuries down the line. And so when we sing it, even if we don't like the music, we're like, oh wow, that awakens something in me. And think about this, like the Psalms, those songs are 3,000 years old now, the Psalms, right? How can it be?

It doesn't make any sense. You've got this 150 songs in the middle of the Bible, basically the Songbook of Jesus as he walked the earth, right? And every imaginable human emotion in there, but also truth. And what's amazing to me is that, you know, I think I read the Psalms daily, almost daily. How can it be that this people wrote these songs 3,000 years ago and it lives in me? That's crazy. Like, you could have someone play you a song from 75 years ago,000 years ago and it lives in me. That's crazy. You could have someone play

you a song from 75 years ago and you think there's nothing, maybe a song from the radio 75 years ago, there's nothing in that translates or relates to me. How can it be we can have songs that were 3,000 years old and they absolutely light me up and they resonate with my whole being. That's just crazy and it's amazing. So for me, in the room, to answer your question with songwriters and young songwriters, it's always to go after that, to go after, hey, let's sing something amazing and true about God. I'm going after a universal theme in a unique way. I want to sing something about God that we should sing about that's true, you know, and

that's relevant and that's powerful, but I want to find a unique way to sing that. And the biggest thing for me is I want to write songs that are both a chapel and a classroom. And by that I mean the classroom sense, like I want to say something true, something that means something that matters. I want to remind people about something about God, maybe his ways, maybe his heart or something. But I want to also have the song be a chapel. I want space for devotion, space for us to say what we think about that. Some of the very best songs of the last decades do that, like, how great is our God? You know, he wraps himself in

light and darkness tries to hide. That's kind of like the classroom, right? But then the chapel part. So how great is our God? Sing with me, how great is our God? Wow. That is so good. That's so cool. What an amazing thing to think about. Life can take us down many paths, some you didn't expect and some you did. But if you're in a season of life where you're wondering what's next, I want to tell you about Liberty University. It's a world-class Christian university in Virginia whose mission has been training Champions for Christ for over 50 years. With over 700 residential and online degrees to choose from, Liberty University has something

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If you haven't done that, highly recommend it. If you're thinking about Liberty as a high school student, that's a great way to get to know the campus. I actually even got to take some online classes at Liberty and loved it. I know you will too. It was so nice. I got to take the Old Testament survey

and the New Testament survey, which actually helped me so much with my knowledge and understanding of the Bible. My teachers were great and it was actually even flexible with how much, you know, our life is a little bit crazy. We travel, I would do a lot of different things and it was during COVID that I started it and it was just a great semester that I got to learn.

So you guys are gonna love it if you pick it up. If you're looking to get into the homeschool scene for yourself or for your kids, Liberty has an accredited online K through 12 Christian homeschool program called Liberty University Online Academy or LUOA. My sister Bella actually graduated from LUOA and absolutely loved her experience.

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Krishna, we're talking about this, and this is kind of funny. So I said I grew up by Church of Christ, so we sang from a hymn book. And I love that about my upbringing. I absolutely love that I know those hymns. And it's so funny, because I haven't sang them in a long time,

but whenever I sing over my girls at night, I realize those are the songs that I sing. Those are the ones that are so locked in me. And even the other day, we were at the beach, and out of nowhere, we're sitting there like it's 30 a y'all been there You know, we're in seaside. Okay, we're sitting out on the balcony watching the water and there's people everywhere. Of course, it's 4th of July It's crazy and all of a sudden some deer just start walking towards the water It is the most beautiful thing because I mean like I said, it's busy, it's seaside,

it's 4th of July and then deer come walking towards the water. So of course, you know, start singing as the deer pants forth the water, so my soul long is after you. And I just, me and Christian started singing that and Honey said, are we worshiping? Honey's sitting there with her hands up. And it's just like these beautiful truths. And I got to just see this beautiful picture of deer, like going towards the water in the midst of like this busy place,

but it was just the most peaceful site. And it brings you back to this biblical truth. And what I love about the hymns is whenever I read the Bible, I'm like, oh, I didn't even know that was just scripture. And I knew it because I've sung it. That's the power of like having a song that you can really worship to that scripture

because you're getting that scripture in your soul. Like you said, the Psalms 3000 years ago, somehow that still lights you up and it's still true and it still draws you closer to the Father. And so to not use that, like you said, your best card in worship is missing. I mean, you're definitely missing out on a huge moment and the thing that we have the power to, which is the truth.

I think the truth is something I can get on a whole tangent on this, but I hate how the truth has gotten so diminished in our day. The truth is so relevant. It's like, oh yeah, well, your truth, my truth, this truth, that truth. But I always tell people something that seems so obvious, but the power of the truth is that it's true.

Like, the only thing that makes the truth powerful is that it is true. And if it stands the test at time. And so to have these words of truth written in the Bible, declare and sing over ourselves for who the God is that we worship is just amazing. Maisie, I'm sure I can feel like I love whenever you sit there and you just are pondering things because I know there is probably a well of wisdom inside of your heart and mind. What does hearing your dad talk about this make you think of?

What are you thinking over there? I'm just feeling so grateful. I'm feeling so grateful that this is also something my mom says and I love she says it so well. When she first shared this with me, it blew my mind. But I was just thinking, God, I'm so grateful that you didn't have us in 1824, 1924. You would have us in 2024. You would have us be able to see what you're doing in the

church and to be able to sit and have conversations like this, to acknowledge those ancient old wells of worship. And even that's even in one of the lyrics, Dad, in Let Me See Jesus, give me old, give me new. Just thinking about that right now, like, well, there's a marriage right now of like, Just thinking about that right now, like, wow, there's a marriage right now of like, what's happened and what's happening right now. And just thinking, I've just been thinking so much. I think I told you this this morning, but just so grateful for remembrance and how God brings us to remembrance. In His scripture, in His songs, even in just talking together, remembering again who he is. It's great. In remembering who he is, having hope as well. Because I think there's been certain moments

where I felt like I've lost a lot of hope for the church maybe or for the music scene. I've just felt, oh, we've gone too far. But that's not at all true. I feel so hopeful. And what's amazing is all true. I feel so hopeful. And what's amazing is, um, um, Kristi Knuckles as well has written an album, kind of released around the same time as you dad. And she did the exact same thing, which is unbelievable because you kind of both started leading Welsh at the same time where she has done these medleys as well, taken these old songs and brought new songs as well. And, um, I think my first response when I, when I found that out and I was listening to these albums, because they have been my most listened to,

I've been going back and forth, is I feel like we need these songs more than ever. Like maybe we need these songs more than ever from when they were first written until now. And it's such a, it's such a privilege because when I first started listening to these songs when I was younger, I would have no idea how much they would mean to me now. And it's such a privilege because when I first started listening to these songs when I was younger, I would have no idea how much they would mean to me now. And I'm so grateful for worship songs because I feel like they're also like guide posts and signposts for us to remember all that God's done. And that's why I know these songs mean so much to people. It's great. Like, heart of worship, because you can remember the first time you heard that.

Yeah. Or like you were saying, there's certain moments where God actually gives us songs that are sign posts, guide posts, and guardrails in the desert. And I've been reading that in Jeremiah. It says when you go through the desert to put up the guideposts. And so I think there might be people listening who feel they've walked away from church, they feel pretty hopeless about maybe some worship or they've kind of lost their way but knowing like, no, these songs are guideposts that they're never going to be

stolen. Like the enemy can't steal them. They're forever going to be a part of our history with God and they're going to help us remember. And that is's why I cried in the car to let me see Jesus, because I just thought, there are so many things fighting for my affection every single day. I just want to see Jesus. And this song is showing me Jesus, because like you were saying, Dan, it's showing me all the attributes of my God. And there's nothing that can come against that. And it just felt like everything in me was distilled in that moment in the car. I just was weeping and I thought,

yeah, this song is gonna be a guidepost for me. It is gonna be a guidepost for me when I'm having a moment of anxiety. I'm gonna look back and I'm gonna listen to that song and remember you gave that to me in a season I really needed to remember. So I think I'm just sitting here thinking there's so much remembrance happening.

You're so gracious to help us remember who you are. So good. I love that. Matt, go ahead. Yes. It's such a key thing, this whole thing of seeing Jesus, because worship isn't, you know, when we talk about worship music, it's not just about singing to Jesus. It's actually a first step, and it's about seeing Jesus, right?

And I often talk about worship as revelation and response. We get pretty good at the response stuff. Like, you know, there's some cool worship music out there. We know how to fill a room with music and how to get people clapping along or however they want to respond. Right? We're pretty good at that, but the bit we're not so strong on and we really want to keep moving forward is the revelation side.

Am I helping people see Jesus? In the King James Version of the Bible, it says the word, behold, I think 1,245 times. Behold, behold. You know, in other words, God's saying, I want to be seen. You know, He's a God who wants to be known. He's a God of self-revelation. He wants us to see who He is. And it's such

a vital key ingredient in our worship songs, our worship services that we're really giving people Jesus. That we're not just trying to hype up a load of music. Because here's the truth, if you see Jesus, the rest of the stuff takes care of itself. Like, if you really help people see Jesus through a song, you won't be able to stop them singing and clapping and bowing and cheering and raising their hands and dancing. That stuff's just going to happen naturally. It's the reflex of a soul who has seen Christ as he is, you know? And I love that.

I think the real big thing for us in this age is we've got to let the throne set the tone. This is a huge kind of motto for me for the last decade or so, but we have to let the throne set the tone. We've got to take our cues from scripture, not just from culture. We go into this open heaven a few times in scripture, Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, Revelation, and other places. They're showing us what heaven looks like, what that heavenly throne room looks like,

and really what we should be doing in this day and age is saying, is what we're doing when we gather, does it kind of look like that? Does this song, with this song we're singing, would it kind of fit with this approach, with this production? Would it kind of fit what we're doing? And so for me, that's the golden question in this day and age. Let the throne set the tone. Are we doing that?

Well, that's good, fam. You guys are doing great. question in this day and age. Let the throne set the tone. Are we doing that? Well, that's good fam. You guys are literally the best. I love you guys. I love podcasting together and I just love podcasts in general, which is why Team LO actually started another little spin-off podcast that's happening every Tuesday and Thursday. It's really just to further the community of sisterhood that we've been building through LO and I can't wait for you guys to listen to it. It's just very straight back. My team talking for about 15 minutes really about what everybody's talking about giving you guys some scripture to that, giving you guys prayer over your life and some

really fun conversations. So subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to the LO Sister podcast. That's what it's called Again, these are Tuesdays and Thursdays. Short little encouragement for your week. And go on the Live Original YouTube page and make sure you subscribe to our channel there as well. I hope you guys love it and it encourages you in your week. Gosh, that's a whoa that's good moment. Let the throne set the tone. Honestly, that's speaking to me so much because I find myself like, it's a woe that's good moment. Let the throne set the tone. Honestly, that's speaking to me so much because I find myself like,

it's so crazy how you can so easily get off gear. Like I was just preparing for this message that I have coming up. And I kept thinking like, okay, so I'm speaking to high schoolers and I haven't spoke to high schoolers in a while. I'm like, what are high schoolers into? And I'm thinking like, what are they into?

Not like, what do they schoolers into? And I'm thinking like, what are they into? Not like, what do they need to just know about God? Like what, I'm trying to like relate to them on the culture, but that's not where I need to meet them at. Like I need to meet them at the throne. Like that's what they need to hear. And that's why last night when I said, I felt a whisper is because I felt the Lord bringing me back

to like has nothing to do with what's going on with culture, has everything to do with who He's always been. And that's what people need to be reminded of. They don't need to be met with like where they're at. They need to be brought to where He's at, at the throne. And so what you're saying is like, so what I need to hear right now, and it's crazy. Like back to the first piece of advice,

it's so easy to let, to just be blown by the wind of people and you don't even realize it until all of a sudden you get back on track with God. And, you know, I want to ask, I want to ask you, and I think I already probably know the answer to this, but for both of you guys, like you said, you've written decades of songs. You've been in the church for so, so long.

You've shared your story openly and you've been through a lot of heartache. You both have, you both have gone through so much. And you know, you guys put out a documentary sharing some of the hurt that you've gone through. I don't want, we don't have to get into all of that, but what I wanna ask is this, through hurt, through moving, through different places,

through different seasons of life, through different stages, how do you keep your heart pure towards the church and continue to bring the offering that God's gifted you with to the body when you've been hurt by that? For me, it's just because I've seen enough of Jesus to get through the rest. I've seen enough of Jesus to know by this point, okay, I don't understand this situation, but I do know he's good. Okay, this situation's painful, confusing, but I do know he's great. You know, and I know his greatness over my life, I know his goodness in my life, and

I've seen enough to know that, you know, I can trust him through all of it. So whether that be, you know, moral compromise that you see in a situation you've been in, it's like, man, that's so devastating. But I've seen enough for Jesus to know that He is good. That's great. And that He has a plan and that He's in control. Maybe it was the pain for me in my childhood, but even then, even by that point, I'd seen enough of him to know it's

going to be all right. You know, he doesn't change. He's constant. He's completely steadfast in who he is. You know, and I learned pretty early on that the throne room is not only a place of reverence, but it's a place of refuge. It's the one place you can go to when your whole world's breaking and shaking apart, whether that's a big national news story or whether it's something very personal in your life.

When your whole world's kind of upended, it's the one place you can go to that's unshakable. Nothing's going to change there. It won't be shaken. And I think that's one reason worshiping Him is so utterly reassuring and stabilizing for us because when we sing these songs of truth, it just reminds us, oh, we are held, we are known, he is in control, he hasn't left the building, it's going to be okay. That's good. The way I look at it is like this, is if you were sitting in the back of a car, you're

trying to read a book, right? And sometimes you start to feel nauseous. And the reason is this, your senses start to conflict with each other because your eyes are trying to tell you that you're staying still as they're trying to fix on that page. But your ear balance canal, for example, is saying, no, no, you're not still right now. You're moving around all over the place. And so what happens is you get this conflict of the senses and it can lead to nausea. And how you could solve that is open the window, put your arm out into the fast

moving air, and back up what deep down you know to be true. Give further evidence, further weight to what is true. Indeed, I am moving around very fast right now. The same thing happens in the spiritual life. It's like, yeah, I know God's good. I know he's in control. And then something hits you, something real hard to handle, something, some turbulence that you just can't understand or some confusing thing, or maybe it's grief or maybe it's loss or maybe it's something else. Financial thing could be anything, right? And then you start to feel spiritually nauseous, spiritually sick, like, I know God's in control, but why is this happening to me? Why is this

going on for so long? Why hasn't He answered this prayer yet?" And what you need to do in that moment, you need to put your arm out into the fast moving air. You need to take that window down and put your arm out, give further evidence, further weight. Okay, okay, I know he's in control. I know he's good. And that's reading scripture ultimately. It's good. That's why these worship songs are so helpful. If they're full of truth, the truth of who God is, then in our times of trouble, they can really stabilize us. They can really reassure us. And they give further evidence, further weight.

Ah, He's with me. It's going to be okay. So good. I love that. I love how you're a great visual teacher. I mean, you see that through songs that you write, but even through card analogies and car analogies. I'm such a visual learner.

And so I'm loving the analogies. It's so truly so helpful. And I'm so thankful that you said that. Maisie, do you want to share anything as we just begin to wrap up about that? I'm just so grateful for dad for your emphasis on the throne room. I think that's just definitely changed my faith. And just remembering the creatures singing, holy, holy, holy. And even Dad says this, you say like, they haven't even got over that one characteristic of God.

They've just kept going and I think that really changed my faith. But I would say, I came across this phrase called Maranatha when I was in college and in Aramaic means come Lord Jesus, come return to us quickly, come quickly. And actually, the early Christians, that was how they would greet each other. When they would say hello and goodbye, they would say Maranatha to each other. And I think when I think about being a part of the body and being a follower of Jesus, I want that. They were the first Christians and that's how they greeted each other. You know? And I want to live that. I want the cry of my life to be a Maranatha.

And Maranatha has nothing to do with my past hurt in church. It has nothing to do with how I'm feeling. It has nothing to do with me. It has everything to do with God, everything to do with His design. And it doesn't matter what's on the news, what's coming against us, because He's overcome and He's coming back. And so that fills me with so much joy and hope, because I believe even in these songs being released, Dad, and us returning actually to these old songs, I believe that he's gathering the builders of the house. And I believe he's gathering people.

And it makes me so excited to be a part of the body. But I don't even think about things that have happened before. I don't think about that. And so I want the cry of my life to be in Maranatha. And Lord, return to us. That is so good. I'm with you to start saying that every time we see each other and leave. Maranatha, I'm not even kidding.

I'm there. Y'all, this is so powerful. I think, you know, we talked about before this podcast, things that we hope people would get from it, things that we hope people would hear. But what I'm leaving with is just an excitement to go study the Word, to go worship for Jesus to come. Like I'm leaving with such an expectancy.

I actually, as we've been talking, have thought of a book that your mom gave me that I haven't read yet. And it's like an old book, a history book, but hearing you talk about history and just the truth, I'm like, I wanna go read that book now. I wanna get excited again for just to worship and just to read and just to enter the throne room

in my own time. And I think whenever you enter different stages of life, there's a million reasons why you can say, oh, I'm busy, I can't, I'm this, I'm that. And I'm like, no, it doesn't even matter. I just wanna be with Jesus. And so my excitement to go be with Jesus gets me excited for how many of you guys are listening

and hopefully feel the same way. And so, you know, if you don't know where to start, go check out Matt's new album. And I'm not just saying that to plug it. I do want to plug it, because it's amazing, but coming back to the heart is not just an album that we're plugging, it's one that I truly believe to plug it because it's amazing. But Coming Back to the Heart is not just an album that we're plugging. It's one that I truly believe will lead you to the third room. And so go check that out. Go listen to that. Thank you guys so much for coming on the podcast,

coming on together and giving so much wisdom. I kept finding myself like stopping myself from trying to be, I guess you would say cheeky and say, whoa, that's's good. Because you all were dropping so many, whoa, that's a good moment. So I appreciate you all so much. Thanks for having us. It's an absolute pleasure. What a lovely thing to come on with Maisie. I love you. By the way, it's got a much better refined British accent than I do.

I was hearing you, Maisie, and thinking, man, she's almost royal. She's amazing. She is royal. She's a princess, a queen, and we are all going to go work on our British accent.