WHOA That's Good Podcast - You Can Break the Anxiety & Fear Cycle | Sadie Robertson Huff | Sissy Goff

Episode Date: August 7, 2024

Sadie digs into anxiety, social pressure, and trusting your instincts with Sissy Goff, a veteran counselor and author of more than a dozen parenting books. Sadie shares several personal parenting challenges she’s faced over the past few years and how Sissy’s books have helped her overcome them. Sissy illustrates the differences between fear, worry, and anxiety, as well as the various places those feelings stem from within our brains and personalities. Sissy recognizes the importance and difficulty of overcoming anxiety in order to break the cycle of fear that can be passed down from one generation to the next. Sissy's book, "The Worry-Free Parent," is available now. This episode of WHOA That's Good is sponsored by: https://www.covenanteyes.com/sadie — Try Covenant Eyes FREE for 30 days with promo code WHOA. https://sadiepens.com — Stock up on Mr. Pen Bible journaling supplies today! https://hungryroot.com/whoa — Get 40% off your first delivery and free veggies for life. -- Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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What's up, fam? Happy Wednesday, everybody. I hope you're having a great week, but per usual friends, it is about to get so much better. And I sincerely mean that because even prepping for this person to come on the podcast, my life has gotten so much better. This is definitely going to be one of those interviews that I am right there with you as a listener. I am listening to every word she's saying and learning from the wisdom as well.

We have the one and only parenting coach. She's written 13 different books, which is so crazy. And she has been counseling kids since 1993. She has a lot of work, a lot of wisdom to share. And we have Sissy Goff on the podcast. So welcome, Sissy. Thank you, Sadie. I'm so honored to get to be with you.

I am absolutely honored that you're on the podcast. And it was actually your podcast that was my first ever parenting podcast to be on. So this is fun. That's crazy. Well, everybody needs to go back and listen to that one because it was such a fun, sweet conversation with you that day.

It was so sweet. And I remember it was funny because as I've been preparing for you to come on, I had forgotten, I was like, oh, I was on her podcast. And when I remembered I was on it, I went back to look when would that have been? And I was just kind of sharing with you, that was four months after I had honey.

And so one, I definitely did not feel equipped to be on a parenting podcast. But two- You did great though. Thank you. I mean, that really is so sweet and you're a great interviewer, but two, I was going through a lot of postpartum anxiety.

And so as I was reading your book, The Worry-Free Parent, which we're gonna talk so much about, I was reminded just about my own anxiety and stuff and how sweet that I got to have a conversation with you in the midst of that. And you of course didn't know that part of my story, but now I'll get to share it some with you. But I'm just absolutely thrilled to have you

on the podcast today. I got to ask you the question I ask every single podcast guest I ever have on, and then we'll get into a good conversation. So I have to throw it on you though, so see what is the best piece of advice you've ever been given. I think when I was in college, my Bible study leader said to me,

I was leading a group of girls through, I can't even remember what book of the Bible, but she said, basically, you can't ask someone to go somewhere that you're not going yourself, that you're not willing to go yourself. And that has always been so helpful and humbling for me to remember as someone who works with a lot of kids and families and feels like a great thing for parents to remember too,

that we are all growing together. We're all doing our own work alongside each other. Yep, gosh, that is so good and so true to this book, which is all about like, you know, if you're going to help your kids through anxiety, then you have to do the work yourself. And I just have to say, before we even dive into it, because I know a lot of our listeners are not parents yet,

so they might be like, is this podcast for me? I think this podcast is especially for you. I think a lot of the work that I did to be a worry-free parent actually started when I started working on my anxiety before I even had kids. And I'm so thankful for that. And so I just ask if you're listening

and you're not a parent yet, hang in this conversation because a lot of the things she's gonna share is gonna be helpful for you too. We have to mention too, because I've heard your dog in the background before we started recording. I love that you counsel people with dogs and I love the whole concept behind that.

So can you share why you have dogs around all the time? Yes, so I am a therapist in Nashville at a place called Daystar Counseling Ministries that's a little yellow house with a white picket fence. And I say little, but we have about 2000 families that are in counseling currently with us, with 13 full-time therapists. But five of our therapists are dogs. about 2000 families that are in counseling currently with us, with 13 full-time therapists.

But five of our therapists are dogs. And that is because we talk so much, Larry Crabb was a psychologist who said, everybody wants to have someone who jumps up and down over them. And you know, obviously our hope is we have people in our life who are doing that for us. But I think especially because I've been working

with girls all these years too. And the longer I've done this work, the more I feel like it is hard to be a girl. It is hard to grow up in this world in terms of meanness, social hierarchies, playground politics, all of those things. And so I really do say to families, I wish every family had a dog. Because for a little girl to walk in the door of her house,

no matter what she's faced that day, and to for a little girl to walk in the door of her house, no matter what she's faced that day, and to have a little dog who is doing their equivalent of jumping up and down over her, I think can make such a difference. And it's certainly why we have them in our practice. I have so many kids who I think get more excited to come see my dog than they do me. Hey, that's probably true in a good way, because that's how my daughter is. And I heard you say that, and I just absolutely love that because my daughter, Haven, so I have to tell all the listeners what happened to me today because this is so crazy.

Well, not happened to me, what happened to Haven, and really how this is so timely for me to have this conversation. But I'm gonna get to the dog at the end of this story because this actually has a big role to play. So this morning, I have to say, since yesterday, I have been listening to your book, Worry Free Parent, like on double speed, like getting all the information in

and have just loved it. I can't even tell you how many times I had to stop it, write down quotes, rewind it, listen again, tell Christian, come listen to what she just said. And I mean, I'm not kidding. Like I have absolutely loved it. Listen to it and absolutely loving it. So I'm like feeling confident

in my worry-free parent ability, all right? And I wake up with all this new advice, all this wisdom, worry-free, here we go. And I'm about to leave the house. And I say to the lady who helps with the girls, I say, hey, listen, I just bought all this new fruit I put in the freezer for you to make them a smoothie today because they've been super into smoothies.

So I go open the door to show her all my new frozen fruit for the smoothies and I shut the freezer and little Haven, my little one-year-old's finger got smashed in the door. It was the saddest thing ever. Let me tell you, all of that worry-free advice was about to go, I mean, it flew out the window in that moment.

I mean, I was shaking, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, is her finger there? Like, it was so, it was so much stress, so much anxiety. I was so nervous because she's just so little and it was such a big door and it was so sad. And so I get to the doctor and we get the whole x-ray thing going. And you know, it's scary for kids to have to get x-rays

because they're so not used to that kind of room. And it's like, it's not made for kids, you know, it's all gray and dark and blah, blah, blah. And you know what the only thing that helps Haven in those moments is seeing pictures of our dog. She like, that makes her laugh. Like if she's crying, I'll say, let me show you Cabo. That's our dog's name.

She will laugh, she will smile. She'll say, Boppo. And she'll start doing her little barks. Every day when we get home, like she just giggles and Cabo comes and looks at her like they are buddies. And we've had Cabo since we first got married. We, you know, right after we got married, got Cabo comes and looks at her like, they are buddies. And we've had Cabo since we first got married, we, you know, right after we got married, got Cabo. But I have had a whole new appreciation for our dogs

since having the girls because of how special our dog makes them feel. And it was so sweet today that I'm like, here, look at pictures of Cabo. And she was like, fine. And actually the X-ray doctor said that they have never seen a one-year-old not cry and just let her hand be taken through the pictures.

But she was so tough. And thankfully no broken bones, she's totally fine. But I kind of jokingly say all that went out the window because in all seriousness and sincerity, your book helped me so much through today because I got back in the car and I just shared this with you before but I just want our listeners to know it was like so sweet. I get back in the car, drop Haven off back at home and I'm coming to do this podcast

and I'm thinking, man, what are the timing of this? I've had my anxiety skyrocket today and all the stress. And I turn on your audio book and write, like literally the moment I turn it on, it's you saying, even the good parents are gonna blow it some days. And then you go on to say, like, everyone's gonna blow it. And then you talk about God being steady

and how like, it's not that we're always going to be steady, we are going to mess it up. I think even in the book, you talk several times about how like 50% of the time, you know, you'll get it wrong, you'll mess up, you'll do something. And it was so sweet, because when my doctor called me back to tell me no broken bone,

the first thing she said was no broken bone. And the second thing she said was, this is not a mom fail, this is just part of life. And so to hear my pediatrician say that, but then to hear your words echo and affirm that to be true was just such a gift to me today. And so for everyone who deals with worry, stress, anxiety, which is probably most of us listening,

I think your book is such an incredible resource in the day-to-day, the practicality, the spiritual aspect, all of it. And I'm so thankful to be having this conversation and for your book, because I've gotten a lot of counseling help to deal with the fear and anxiety that I've struggled with. And a lot of people ask me

like how I got past my fear and anxiety. And it's such a loaded question. I mean, I can't just say, you know, step one, two, and three. There's so many people who have sat with me and helped me. But what I, as I've been reading your book, I'm like, man, I'm so thankful because so much of what I've learned from different counselors and different things,

you packed into that one book. I mean, so many things that have helped me are in this book. And so I just want people to hear me say, like if you've wondered how I've gotten through it so much of the things that I've done, the strategies, the spiritual aspect of it, the practical aspect of it, you really put in this book. So I just want you to speak into a little bit,

why did you write the Worry Free Parent book as, was this number 13 for you? I think it was. I think it was, yeah, I think it was. You know, it's so interesting. I mean, even you talking about the podcast and the timing of today, how God orchestrates our work and life

and hearts all to kind of be in rhythm. And I did a deep dive on anxiety because it started with a book for elementary age girls. And I was seeing the average age of onset of anxiety, I mean, talking about listeners who aren't parents, the average age of onset used to be eight, now it's dropped to six. And so a lot of us, whether we're parents or not,

this started really early. And so I wrote a workbook called Braver, Stronger, Smarter for Little Girls, and an accompanying book for parents called Raising Worry-Free Girls. And literally they came out August before the pandemic started. Wow. Which I was so grateful for the timing of that. And then as a therapist, the pandemic starts and

we obviously moved online and immediately the population I became most concerned about were adolescent girls. So I ended up writing a book for adolescent girls. And then post pandemic, the population I've been most worried about are parents. I think we are still, I mean, the statistics have been climbing, but I think post pandemic, we are still stuck in a lot of anxiety. The statistics are one in four kids are dealing with anxiety, one in three adolescents, one in three adults, and women are twice as likely as men. So it is so rampant in our culture, whatever station in life you're in. And I think I just am having more and more really thoughtful, conscientious parents who are saying, I feel like I'm part of the problem and I want to do my own work, help. And so I really wrote the book as an answer to that to say, here's some really practical

things that you can do to find help and hope in the process of what's going on. It's so good. Well, you did just that. I mean, it's so encouraging. It's so helpful and so equally encouraging. So many times you just stop to encourage the parent, which is so needed and so helpful and so equally encouraging. So many times, you just stop to encourage the parent, which is so needed and so helpful, honestly, because you are, as a parent, so hard on yourself.

And of course, even like today, I'm like so hard on myself because I shut the door. And so to hear that encouragement was so helpful throughout the whole book. And I kind of mentioned a lot of what I think has helped me be a more worry-free parent, not that I'm perfect at it.

Obviously you have my days like today, and I just even shared about having postpartum anxiety. But compared to how I used to be, to where I'm at now, I mean, I'm so grateful for the amount of growth I've had when it comes to anxiety and worry. And really why I started getting the help I needed is because I heard the story. Do you know who Dr. Amen is?

Yes. Okay, so Dr. Amen has helped me a lot with anxiety and he's actually been on the podcast three times. I have like had him on to just get wisdom from him and wanted to share what he's kind of helped me with. But I was going to him for the first time and he's telling me all the things and I'm kind of, you know, I'm in it, but I'm also kind of thinking, is this really gonna help?

Am I really gonna change? I had been anxious for so long, honestly kind of at that point thought, this is just how I am. You know, this is just, I mean, I really believe this is just my personality. Like this is just a part of me. But it wasn't, it was, it had a lot to do

with just traumatic events and different things and my life being the way that it was for such a long time and whatnot. And so anyways, in the midst of all of his things that he was saying to me this day, when I visited him, he said to me, do you know that there's a study and it's on mice and mice is like, they did this thing to mice where basically they put

like the scent of cherry blossom into their cage or whatever. And when they did, they would shock these mice. So it would scare them. So they became afraid, intentionally afraid of the smell of cherry blossom. Then he said, those mice went on to have babies and they would put the cherry blossom scent in there and they didn't shock them, but they were scared.

Their reaction was fear and they never were shocked. So why? Well, because it was genetically passed down. And when he told me that story, it was like everything in me was like, it just snapped like, wait, okay, so my anxiety can one day affect the kids that I have in their anxiety.

And then all of a sudden I was like, give me all the help I can get. And that was before I was even a mom. I'd just gotten married and I really was just trying to get help because I didn't wanna be an anxious wife. I didn't wanna kind of carry that into my marriage and I definitely didn't want to carry it into being a mom. And so I just started taking so seriously.

Like whatever he said would help, I just started doing. And so much of what he said was in your book. And I think that that is just like such a gift that you gave to the world to read these things and actually take it into practical steps. But one of the things you talk about is the difference between worry, fear and anxiety and like how to kind of know when it's time

that you actually need help. Can you walk us through that a little bit so people understand and maybe can identify, oh, that's me. Christian and I definitely like to be protected in whatever way we can. So our home is pretty secure and on lockdown. Protecting our homes and families is a no-brainer and we should be protecting ourselves in the digital world too.

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So fear is something that happens if I'm in the presence of the thing that I'm afraid of. So I'm afraid of spiders, big spiders. I don't feel any fear as I'm saying that to you, but if a huge spider walks in the room I'm in, all of a sudden I would feel fear register in my body. So it really has to be with us or close to us, in close proximity for us to feel the fear. Worry is, I think, a little bit more pervasive and we worry about things. And I think worry has become a part of life

for so many of us in our culture because of just all the things that are going on. But anxiety, and I don't necessarily mean clinical anxiety, that's something we could talk about too, but I think normal anxiety that, again, statistically so many of us live with today, the way I talk about too. But I think normal anxiety that again, statistically, so many of us live with today, the way I talk about it with kids is it's like, you know, we all have hundreds of what are considered intrusive thoughts every day, worst case scenario thoughts, I failed thoughts. And if we're not anxious, that thought comes in and it goes right

back out. If we're anxious, it comes in and it gets stuck. And I will say to kids, it's like the one loop roller coaster at the fair and it goes over and over and over and we can't get it out of our minds. And the interesting thing is, which I would be curious if you would say this thinking about your own growing up,

but if we took kids across development, I could basically guess at any given age what they're going to loop about the most. So little bitty ones, if honey starts to feel anxious at some point, which honestly, oldest girls, I think are most likely to feel it. Oh, for sure. And genetically, seven times more likely if they have a parent who struggled just like the mice. So for her, initially, it will likely be being away from you, separation anxiety, and they get a parent who's struggled just like the mice. So for her, initially, it will likely be being away from you, separation anxiety. And they get a little bit older. And I don't even know how many kids over the years I've counseled who are afraid of throwing up. And they have the

thought come in, oh no, I think I might throw up. And then all of a sudden they think, I'm going to throw up, I'm going to throw up, I'm going to throw up, to the point that their little bodies get on board and they sometimes even throw up. Bless their hearts, because that's how God made our bodies. And then they get older and it's, is anyone gonna sit with me on the school bus? Who am I gonna hang out with today at recess? They get a little bit older and I'm gonna fail the quiz or I'm gonna trip in the track meet.

Basically, the worst thing kids can imagine at any given age, the scariest thing they can imagine is where they get stuck. Which is why so many parents say to me, I never had any anxiety until I became a parent. Because the thing that matters the most to you right now, sitting there, matters more than anything ever has in your entire life. And so of course, if you're going to get stuck in a loop, it's going to be over your girls. It's going to be over your kids if you're a parent. And so I think that's a way we can know off

and that's what's going on. Yeah, you know, that is so true for me. And actually, when I went to Dr. Amon, he did a brain scan and he was like, your brain is on a loop. And he was like, look at this and it's where your brain loops. And it was just like red, like the activity was so crazy.

And he said, do you think you get stuck on the same thought? And I'm like, do I think? Yes, I know, like for sure I get stuck on the same thought. And you know, it's crazy because I already see that in Honey, absolutely. Like Honey went to, we started swim lessons for her and we ended up stopping swim lessons after a couple weeks because it felt like, at first I was doing,

I was just like, okay, this is making you stronger. You need this, you know? It's that whole, and you talk about that so much, which I wanna get to because I think it's so important for our kids to do things that are hard and kinda cause them to struggle a little so that they can overcome it. But it had gotten to the point where it was just causing

sheer anxiety. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna start teaching you swim lessons. So, you okay, I'm gonna start teaching you swim lessons. So, you know, I started doing it with her in the pool instead of taking her to the place. And so, so when I heard her work on it, but kind of minimizing a little bit of the anxiety

that she was going through, I'm not kidding. For at least a month, every single day, at least once a day, am I going back to swim lessons? Like that was just on a loop, like swim lessons, swim lessons, swim lessons, swim lessons, swim lessons. And that's because it made her afraid. And I think it's so interesting, like, you know, for a long time, not for a long time,

she's only three, but for a little while, first when I started seeing those signs of her showing anxiety, you know, I'm beating myself up. Like I tried to get mine under control so that she wouldn't go through this. And I'm frustrated with myself that I've struggled with anxiety because I don't want her to struggle with anxiety.

So I try to be so brave for her. And then why is she struggling? But then I started realizing, okay, like, you know, she does struggle with, this is something that's a, you know, a little bit of a part of her, but I can show her how to overcome it. Like I don't just have to show her how to be, but I can show her how to overcome it. I don't just have to show her how to be anxious, I can show her how to overcome these things.

And it's actually been a really sweet thing for me at Honey is to do a lot of those things that she is afraid of together. And that's what my mom did for me. I mean, truly that's what my mom did for me. I remember when I turned 19 and I was like so tired of being so afraid all the time. And this is like so crazy.

And this is me going from one extreme to the other. But I'm like, I'm done being afraid. I'm going skydiving. And so I just thought I'll just go skydiving and I'll just not be scared anymore. And it was so sweet because the day I was going skydiving, all my friends came with me, but no one wanted to do it. They're like, this is your thing.

We're supporting you, but we don't want to do it. And my mom surprised me in Nashville. She flew there to surprise me to show up to skydive with me, but no one wanted to do it. They're like, this is your thing, we're supporting you, but we don't wanna do it. And my mom surprised me in Nashville. She flew there to surprise me, to show up to skydive with me. And she was just my partner in crime when it came to fear. And she'd never struggled with fear. She is the laugh of the fear of the future, a Proverse 31 person. She just is like, she just doesn't bend towards that.

She's just not an anxious person. My dad might've been a little bit more like that and I get it more from him and my mom wasn't, but she was just there with me to overcome it every time. And I'm like, even though I do tend to be a little bit more afraid, I can be that for honey. And so, you know, I think your book is so hopeful of like, if you are seeing this in your kid, I love you.

Like don't predict the future. This is not how they're always gonna be. Just like get the help you need. It's so important. You talk about how a grownup should be like the calmest person in the room. And I think that that, you know, if you just heard that listening to this podcast

and you weren't reading the book, you'd be like, oh, that feels like so much pressure. Like how am I going to be the calmest person in the room? But so much of what you talk about too is like scripture application to like the thoughts that you're having and the faith that you have. You talk about the importance of knowing truth and being able to actually stop those loops.

Can you speak a little bit to that? Because I think it's so important that we, as the adults and the grownups, learn how to be calm when our kids are facing hard things but speak to how to actually silence those loops and be calm in those moments if you will. Yes, absolutely and and I do think that was a story from a client that I was seeing that there's this couple that I love and have gotten to meet with for a couple years and they neither one have a great relationship with their parents. And I think there was a lot of unhealth passed down to them. And so they're just trying to do it differently. So we do a lot of what are called parent consults.

So I just meet with them every six months to talk about how their kids are, how they're doing. And the dad had been to a meeting, he's the CEO of his company. And he said, the speaker said, a CEO's job is to be the calmest person in the room. And I thought, I think that might be a parent's job too. And I'm failing at it all the time. Well. And it just has stayed with me so much. And I do think that's true because part of what happens, and we could talk a lot about the science of it, but when we're anxious, the amygdala is the part of our brain that takes over, which is the fight or flight region of our brain, which is why, again, we get into the loop. We have crazy thoughts because

literally the blood has shifted away from the prefrontal cortex that helps us think rationally and manage our emotions. So parents will say, my child's like a crazy person. And right, because the thinking part of their brain is not even getting blood, nor is ours. And I really think there's something that happens when one amygdala kicks into gear, then the other does too. And so with kids, often anxiety is going to show up as anger, or it's going to show up as a sobbing meltdown. And when our response is calm down or stop screaming, then all of a sudden, our amygdala is kicked up, we're gonna make everything worse with them.

And so the best thing we can do really in those moments is to regulate ourselves and then they're gonna be able to regulate themselves too. And so, you know, a few things, I mean, I could give you a list of things I think are good to do, but one is I want every family to have a code word that when it feels like we're in that moment and everybody's getting stirred up, that I can say

watermelon or whatever it is, that means we're going to pause and we're going to separate from each other. And I'm going to go do whatever I need to do to calm myself back down, which I would always say includes breathing, which we know there's so much scripturally about breath and the Holy Spirit being linked to our breath. But breathing is going to dilate the blood vessels of my brain, again, shift the blood flow away from the amygdala back to the prefrontal cortex. So from a scientific standpoint, I'm capable of rational thought again. But the thing I would do as I'm breathing, I have a list of breath prayers in the book

that really are just scripture. So I'm going to take a deep breath in and I'm going to say, be still. And I'm going to take a deep breath out and I'm going to say, and know that I'm God, that you are God. I'm going to take a deep breath in. I can do all things. Breath out through Christ who strengthens me. Whatever the verse says that I'm gonna anchor myself to truth because when I can have truth going over and over in my brain instead of the looping thoughts, then I'm gonna be pulled out of that thought. I'm gonna be distracted from it in a way

that not only is distracting me, but it's changing me because we know that's what scripture does for us. And so I love to have kids memorize scripture. I love for us to do it as adults too, because I think it's so anchoring in those moments. It's great. That's actually what my mom did for me before I could do it for myself.

And it taught me how to do it because when I used to have panic attacks and they were pretty intense when I was in high school and I would call her cause I would feel like I need to go to the emergency room. You feel, you feel like your heart is like having a heart attack and your 17 year old girl, but something just feels wrong, you know? And I remember she would quote, do not fear for I'm with you. Do not be dismayed for I am your God.

I will strengthen you. I will uphold you on my righteous right hand. And I would not even be able to sit here and say that to you had I not heard it so many times spoken over me. And now I say that so much, I say that to Honey so much. And now Honey is the one, and I see her doing it. She actually did this the other day. She went to the pool, speaking of swim lessons,

and she gets in her ready position. Like she's a little swimmer. She is so athletic. So she got in the ready position. Like she was about to, you know, fall off the edge of the pool. And she got in the ready position. She was about to, you know, bowl off the edge of the pool. And she said, I am brave.

I am strong. I am three years old. And she just starts speaking this truth over her life, this affirmation. And she always says, do not fear for I am with you. And just trying to equip her with those words of truth. Because I love the idea you talk about this in the book, that, you know, a thought is just a thought. And a thought can lie to you and it will lie to you, especially

worry. And you know, you got to be able to know truth to speak it over it and actually replace it with something. I think that's so important. Taking every thought captive that way. For sure. To literally like take it captive, replace it. So I just think that that is so good. And I know I keep teeing you up for these big things and you say, I could give you so many things. And I just want to say, you did give us all that in the book, how could you in one podcast?

But that's why I could probably go through half the book that I remember and I can recall a lot, but there would still be so much more. And so I just say that to encourage everyone to truly go get this book. And I'm not just, I, you know, promote books on the show, but I'm not even doing it like that. I actually told my husband, I said, Christian, you have to read this book. I said, give me your phone. I'm buying this on audio right now.

I'll tell you why, because Christian, so I got his permission to say this on this podcast. Well, first of all, I'm an Enneagram six, he's an Enneagram one. And if I'm not mistaken, those are like the two Enneagram numbers that you talked about in the book. Is there really the two most prone towards anxiety for two different reasons? And Christian and you, like so much of what you shared, I was like, oh my gosh, I am so thankful that you shared from an Enneagram One perspective

because this is exactly what he needs. I mean, it was, I was just, that's why I kept rewinding and telling him, listen to this, listen to this. And he was like, okay, I have to read this book. Like this is exactly what I need because he's very much that perfectionism, hard on himself, inner critic, the whole thing. And he never struggled with anxiety until,

not even until he became a parent, but until we went through a really scary situation with Honey, where it was just a really unfortunate situation. We had to be in the hospital. It was very scary. A lot of details that we just keep private for her sake. But after that, I mean, he started struggling with anxiety like he'd never experienced before.

And adding that one and that injustice and the this and the that and the whole thing. And you just hit that on the head. Like you went, the whole chapter I said, wait till chapter nine. Like this is exactly like what you need to hear and what I wish I could give him the advice but I don't understand, you know,

in fullness of kind of how you share it. Can you speak a little bit to just perfectionism as a whole and how that affects, I guess, how that breeds anxiety because I thought your connection to that was exactly what he has experienced and you explained it really really well. Y'all one of my favorite things to do is spend time in the Word studying, journaling, praying, all the things and Mr. Pen products are my go-to. I love that Mr. Pen is a Christian company that makes the cutest pens and highlighters designed specifically to be used in your Bible so it won't bleed

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that he's a one and you're a six, because I believe, I hope I'm not being arrogant in this, but I believe those of us who are ones who are perfectionists really want good things. Like, I think we have pretty good motives. It comes out wonky a lot of times when we get angry and all kinds of things. But I think we want really good and it's interesting. I've heard that sixes are the ones who want the common good the most out of any number, like want the best for people. And I think that is something I want to say before we even go much further in the podcast is it is so important to know for anybody who struggles with anxiety, whether you're a parent or not, I believe it's because of all these beautiful parts of who God made you to be. with anxiety, whether you're a parent or not, I believe it's because of all these beautiful parts

of who God made you to be. And it's because you're conscientious and you care so much and you're trying so hard and you wanna get it right and you wanna be there for people. I mean, the kids who struggle with anxiety, the parents who struggle with anxiety are the kindest, most thoughtful people I ever encounter.

And I think even you telling that story about the freezer, what I would want you to go back to instead of feeling like it was a failure is, you know, that your daughter's love smoothies right now. And so you've been trying to get all this fruit and you're trying to do the right thing in the midst of trying to get somewhere else to make sure they're taken care of. And so an accident happened in light of that, but I think it's so easy. And especially probably for those of us who are perfectionists or want to do the right thing, you know, I think it's so easy to blame ourselves

when things go wrong. And so instead, I think we focus on, I slammed her finger in the freezer instead of I was trying to do something really sweet for my daughter. You know, and I think when we can get towards that, it can help us not be so anxious too, because when we see our failures,

then we just get more anxious and we're spinning out and things are getting worse and worse. Our amygdala is getting bigger and bigger in those moments. But yes, with perfectionists, you know, I think often, I don't know if this is true for everybody, but your mom sounds like she did an amazing job of helping equip you emotionally. But I think the truth is a lot of us

didn't have parents who were doing that. We weren't passing feelings charts around the dinner table, which we are huge advocates of. And so we didn't talk about what was going on. And so I would say anytime that I'm sad or struggling with anything, my house is so clean because I don't know what to do with my feelings. And so often I just get more productive with them. And so I think it's easy for perfectionists, for often oldest born, for really conscientious

people who want to get it right, that we're not even aware that we're anxious. We're just so focused on getting things done and being productive. But in the midst of it, there's all this anxiety fueling it. And I think that's part of why often I'm seeing more girls who are perfectionists than ever before. And again, it's often the oldest child can be oldest boys or girls, but in the worry free raising worry free girls that talk about kids leaning towards being more explosive or implosive with their anxiety. And I think most perfectionists, rather than explode and get really angry, although girls will do that at home only, but they're going to implode and turn on themselves and feel like, I failed, I've messed this up.

Again, it only makes them more anxious. And then it can shift over into anger without ever intending for it to. And I meet with a lot of parents. I mean, I think if I had to say the Enneagram number I see the most in parents in my office, it's ones. Because I believe they're trying so hard and they wanna get it right and they want good for their kids.

And often they're wanting to fix it and they're not paying attention to their own emotions in the process, and so it's hard to pay attention to their child's. And that's gonna be so much of what's gonna help us and help them work through it. Gosh, that is so helpful. Actually, that just was like a light bulb for me

because I think that's how Christian and I process things so differently and similarly. It's been hard to put language to at times, but I think you just did. He is more explosive and I am more impulsive. And so when we went through that same scenario at the hospital, you know, a lot of people, I think when you go through like traumatic events,

like sometimes you either come closer together or further apart. And that was the hardest time of our marriage. We've talked about that on the podcast because we went apart, and mainly because we were handling it so differently. And I say, I had so much fear and sadness over the situation. He had so much anger,

but it really was the root was the same. It just was, it was just being shown two completely different ways. So I was going very internal and he was going very external and his external processing was making my internal worse and my internal was making his internal worse. And so we needed to just like talk it out

in a very more simple way where we were like actually understanding that we are going through the same thing, we're hurting in the same way. We care about the same person, the same way with as much love as we've ever shown anything in the world. So of course we're both gonna be hurting. And you know- Yes, and we both want good for her.

Yes, we both want good. And there was a light bulb moment too for me when you talked about how you'll loop the same thought. Because when I was young, I constantly was afraid something was gonna happen to my mom because my mom was like, my world. So you're like, someone's gonna happen to my mom. You're so afraid.

Every time she would go on a trip, I would get scared. Every time, even at school, if there was like a thunderstorm, I would be scared that my mom would be home and there'd be a tornado. Like I'm like, worst case scenario and where's mom? And then when I got married, it was like, what about Christian? Is he okay?

My husband, something happens to my husband. Then when I had married, it was like, what about Christian? Is he okay? You know, my husband, something happened to my husband. Then when I had kids, it's like my kids. And I just realized like, man, this is gonna follow me my whole life unless I really actually get the help I need, you know? Because you realize like, so many times you think, and you know this is not true, but you still convince yourself it is,

that in the next season, it will just be better. You know, like it will fix itself. It will resolve itself. You will have grown out of it. But I don't think you just grow out of those things. I think you really do have to take the intentional steps to grow out of them and to get, not even pass them in so many ways,

but to the tools to know how to handle them. And that's why I like, I don't know, you know, I talk about living fearless, but I'm like, if I could change that phrase, I wouldn't say like fearless. I think I would phrase it in a different way, because I don't know that you're ever fearless. I don't even know that you should be,

but I think you can fear less, you know? And you can have less worry and less stress and actually come to a place where you're a healthy person. And that's where I feel like I am now. Not that I don't still have fear because that's a natural part of the human experience and life, but you know. It keeps you safe.

It keeps you safe. It's good, you know? And I love what you said to encourage the Enneagram one and the six because so often Christian and I are really different in personality. And people say, you know, what do you think? Like what made you know he was the one? What made, what made you attract to him and how different y'all are, what is something you're similar in?

And I always say, I think this is going to sound funny, but it's our both of us had the same amount of conviction to do the right thing and to do the good thing, you know, and I love that about him because he's convicted in the same way that I am, that we want to do the right thing. And I think that pushes us to be good people, but at the same time, the back end of that leads itself to more of that perfectionism, which can be extremely hard on yourself and all the different things.

So I love that you said that, that's very true. And I love that about him. But then, you know, we go through the back end together. You actually said in the book, and I thought this was interesting, that at 30 years of counseling, you've never seen more discouraged parents in your office, people coming in just discouraged,

just thinking they're not doing a good job, thinking that they could have done better, maybe that they're a failure and whatnot. Can you speak to maybe why you feel that is? Do you think it's the pandemic? Do you think it's social media? Do you think it's all of the above? What do you kind of see in that?

I think it's all of the above, yes. And in some ways, I mean, I think when I was growing up, my mom had one parenting book and it was by a guy named Dr. Spock. And I think the only thing it said to do was to smile at your child. And so my mom smiled at me a lot and my sister, and if you were around us, that's the compliment we get the most is that we smile a lot. So

something worked in there. But I think in this really beautiful way now, we know a lot. And especially if you're anxious, it can feel like we know too much. Yes. And so I feel like parents are comparing themselves constantly, not just the birthday parties, which I think there's certainly that too, but I think it's also, am I instilling all the characteristics I need to instill and are my kids reaching all the milestones right when they're supposed to reach their milestones and are they behind and am I doing something wrong? You know, I just think there's this panic because of the wealth of information.

And I say to parents often, I want you to pick two parenting accounts to follow, or three parenting accounts to follow. Cause the confusing thing is all of us that would be parenting experts, whatever that means, we have different opinions too. And so it just is overwhelming and confusing. And so I want parents to pick a couple of people that speak a lot of grace and truth into their lives that really encourage them and those to be the voices that they trust the most because I think it just gets really overwhelming.

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That's hungerrood.com slash woe and don't forget to use our link so that they know we sent you there. I'm so glad you said that because I 100% agree. I remember when I got pregnant with Honey and I wanted to read everything, I wanted to research everything, I wanted to like know it all, you know?

And I remember, you know, even her birth taught me, you know, you're just way more out of control than you wish you could be, you know? Because nothing that I planned for when I was planned, which I think was so good just from the start, God just showing me, you know? And actually God showing me, I don't want my plan. I actually really don't want my plan, I want His plan.

Cause had it gone according to my plan, it really wouldn't have gone well. You know, I really wanted like a natural birth. I wanted it to all happen naturally and all this stuff. And then it didn't. I ended up getting induced at 41 weeks. And then honey actually got stuck, which is shoulder dissociation happens very, very rarely.

But had I not been there and like been hooked up and had the epidural, you know, I had I not been there and like been hooked up and had the epidural, you know, I would not have been able to go through just the intense process that I had to go through to get her out after she got stuck. And I was like, whoa, God, okay, I actually don't want my plan to work out all the time.

I want your plan. Like, I'm not gonna be in control of this scenario. Then right after that, of course, I planned to breastfeed and then that wasn't working. And all of a sudden I'm like, are you kidding me? Like everything I had researched, everything I had planned for was not happening. And I'm at my stress, I was so stressed, I was so anxious about the whole breastfeeding situation.

And I had this sweet older lady come into my room at probably midnight for the feeding. And she said to me, she said, can I give you some advice? And I said, yes, ma'am, please. And she said, she said, can I give you some advice? And I said, yes, ma'am, please. And she said, you know, a happy baby and a happy mama and a fed baby and a happy mama. Like she just kept saying, it was the simplest thing.

She was like, that's the best thing you can do to just feed your baby. And she said, you're gonna see all over the internet that breast is best. She said, but that is not true. Fed is best. And if this is not working for you, then let's just pivot. Will you let me give her this feeding?

And I mean, I'm just like, it was so sweet. It was so exactly what I needed. And she sat over there and fed honey. And I was relaxed and she was relaxed. And I was just like, okay, like my plan is gonna change because it's just not working out. And I just realized how quickly you have to be confident as a parent to make the decisions your child needs.

And you actually say this in the book about the six, that a six month's a committee. We want the committee's opinion. What does everybody say is the best way? What does she say it's the best way? What does my best friend say is the best way? What does Instagram say is the best way? But the Holy Spirit inside of you is going to lead you to what the best way, what does Instagram say is the best way, but the Holy Spirit inside of you is going to lead you

to what the best way for your child is. Absolutely. And I love that you said that, because I realized those things in the hospital, that I wanted the committee's opinion, but the committee is not the mom to my daughter who needs what she needs. And you know.

Oh, I'm so glad you're saying that, yes. It's so important. And I just remember thinking though, like what are my friends gonna think that breastfeed? What are they gonna think that did a natural work? And thinking, like I was thinking, what are they gonna think? And I realized like, it doesn't matter what anybody thinks.

Like the most important thing in this moment right now is my daughter and my body and how we feel. And I just remember, you know, is my daughter and my body and how we feel. And I just remember, you know, hindsight, looking back, going, man, I'm so grateful that God was showing me that in the hospital. So before I even started the parenting journey, I just was like confident that He is going to lead me

and equip me to be the best mom I can be for my daughter. And I'm gonna know what my daughter needs more than anyone else. And I have to trust that within me. And so I just love that you talked about that in the book, because I think that that is something so many people, especially with social media face. It's hard, you know, the world is going to have so many opinions. There are so many books out there. But one, the Holy Spirit's in you too. I think look at the parents around you. I'm so grateful for my parent, for my mom, for grandma and my life, but if you don't have that,

there are people like you who are putting out incredible things that you can lean on and learn from. So I am so glad you talked about that in the book. I gotta ask you, I hope you remember this, because I'm setting you up for a specific story, but the C.S. Lewis quote that you love so much that you posted about and you, I'll let you say it if you're cunderall saying it, but why I love it is because you even talk about how you doubted yourself after you posted it

because you were thinking what are people going to think? Can you share about that a little bit? Yes, I don't know that I remember the exact wording of it, but it's from one of the books in the Chronicles of Narnia. And it says, it's literally a donkey talking. And it says, justice shall be mixed with mercy and I will no longer be an ass. I just love that. I love that. But why I love the story,

one is because it's incredibly good and you said about parenting, but two, how you said you posted it and then thought, what are people gonna think that you said the word ass? Yes. Can you talk a little bit about just being confident in the way that you're living and leading your life?

Yes. Well, and I think what we were talking about a minute ago goes with this. Yes. I read and I think what we were talking about a minute ago goes with this. I read that quote years ago and it attached itself to me because I can be an ass. I mean, when I'm not in a good space, I'm not nearly as kind as I feel like not only God made me to be, but I feel like he calls me to be. And so I love that quote. And I think in this day of social media, and we all have gotten in trouble about, you know, said something that made somebody mad for some reason or another on social media.

And so I put it up and thought people are going to be mad at me because this is a cuss word, even though it's not meant to be a cuss word, from C.S. Lewis, what he's doing. But, but I think every time on social media and every time in counseling, every time in life, I think this feels like the right thing to say in this moment, and I'm afraid it's not going to be received well, or I'm afraid it's not going to be. I mean, it's trusting your gut. And I think as a therapist, my daily prayer is that my gut will be in line with the Holy Spirit. And that is something I feel like over time, he is answering more and more, not that it's

more in line, but I'm hearing it more clearly. That's good. And I think as a parent, that's a prayer to pray and that you hear it because I mean, after 30 years of counseling kids and sitting with parents, I think your gut as a parent is your superpower. And so the more you learn to trust it, the more you're going to have insight into what's going on with your kids, insight into what your kids need in the moment, insight into what to say, into a million situations that you think, I don't have a clue, or when it's time to stop talking. We had Anne Lamott

on our podcast recently, and she said, I've never heard this, there's an acronym with the recovery movement that is WAIT, W-A-I-T, which is why am I talking? That's good. I know, I loved it. Anyway, I just, I think that idea of if you feel prompted to do something, go on and do it as a parent, as a person, and trust that God's gonna use it. And often the things we feel most apprehensive about, even though our God is telling us to do it, it's really Satan telling us not to. That is a word that is so true because there was a time I felt so strongly that the Lord

was putting in my heart to speak about a particular topic, really about identity. And it felt at the time that the things I felt the Lord leading me to encourage just the youth with, there was a huge group of college students, actually a passion conference. As I was writing the message, I felt God leading me in a specific way that made me so afraid,

because I was like, this feels like the kind of thing you're canceled for. This feels like the kind of thing that people might take the wrong way or might get offended by. And I was like really worried about it. I tried to write other messages, like I tried to just like override what I knew was true

and my spirit wouldn't let me. It was like, God was like, no, this is what you're supposed to do. And I felt so afraid of it. Then thankfully, I think sometimes you don't get this, sometimes you do. I certainly don't get this. Sometimes you do. I certainly don't need the committee, but when God sends someone to affirm it,

it's certainly helpful. Someone that I didn't know, like did not know her at all, came up to me and said, I feel like God is going to use you to speak a specific message on identity. Literally says exactly what. And she doesn't know me at all. She doesn't know anything about my life.

And she just says this. I'm like you're right actually he is Your team requested a ride, but this time not from you. It's through their uber teen account It's an uber account that allows your team to request a ride under your supervision with live trip tracking and highly rated drivers Add your team to your uber account today and highly rated drivers. Add your team to your Uber account today. Doing that, and I'm so glad you said that because it just affirmed even more

that I'm supposed to do this. And I was so afraid, I had so many people praying for me, I went over that thing a hundred times. That is probably the most impactful message I've ever preached and the one that people come up to me most so thankful for. And so it really is true. Like if God put it on your heart,

if your gut is telling you something, like to listen to that and to trust that is so important. And so I think that's funny with that quote of C.S. Lewis, because one, I loved it, it was so helpful. But two, those are the kind of silly things that we get afraid of sharing because we're worried someone's gonna take it wrong. But I think people just need people to be real

and to be honest. I'll never forget, even in my own marriage, someone's gonna take it wrong. But I think people just need people to be real and to be honest. I'll never forget, even in my own marriage, I was so nervous to confess something to Christian. It was recently, and I was like, oh my gosh, I just haven't had many moments where I've had to be like, I need to confess something to you, but I did. And I came up to him and I was like tearing up.

I said, I need to confess something to you that I'm going through, and I'm so worried. And I told him and his reaction was like the most beautiful thing. He said, I'm so glad you told me that Sadie. And he said, I love you so much. And he said, it actually makes me love you more and feel more like I can relate to you

because I am going through that too. And it opened up the door for him to share with me. And he said, sometimes because you put on this, and I don't even mean to, but I think just in the nature of what I do, I'm a speaker, I'm writer, I'm saying good things most of the time. He's like, sometimes I forget, you're going through those things.

And so even for me as your husband who knows you so much, it's so refreshing to hear that that's what you're honestly going through. More people need to see that. More people need to hear those just honest things and those honest thoughts. And so, you know, that vulnerability or just being real or sharing a funny quote. People just need that. Like, I think people are over the filtered, polished lifestyle that everybody's putting up.

It's like, just give me something real. Just don't say it to where it has to rhyme. Just say it, you know? Just give me something real. Just don't say it to where it has to rhyme. Just say it, you know? Like, just give me the word. So I love that you included that. And you even shared that, you know, human feeling of, oh, what are people gonna say or think or gonna be offended when it's like, no, that's just real.

And that's it. And sometimes you see people even like, you put a quote, you're like, oh, good. She's honest. she's real. She feels like an ass sometimes, it's just life. And so, I don't know, I was just thankful for that and love that you shared that. Man, I honestly, we're already at 50 minutes,

I could talk to you forever. I feel like there's so many things. And honestly too, I wanna book a session with you for me and Christian. So we'll have to work on that. I would Christian, so we'll have to work on that. I would love that. We'll have to work on that, but thank you for your work. Thank you for living the life that you do

and leading the way that you do. I cannot wait for you to be at LO Sister Conference. Me too, I'm so excited. Can't wait to learn more for you, but seriously, Ms. Sissy, thank you so much. It was so good to be with you.