Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom? - Ep.2: Old Friends

Episode Date: August 21, 2024

Investigator Sarah Cailean heads to the intersection of Oklahoma, Kansas and Missouri to to begin to untangle the many rumors swirling around the murder of Jennifer Judd and the confessions of Jeremy Jones. Starting in Jennifer’s hometown of Picher, Oklahoma, Cailean hopes to get a better understanding of the 20-year-old woman at the center of this cold case.   Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Previously on Who Killed Jennifer Judd. His words were, you know, that's the first time I've heard my name in about five years. The only person I ever saw Jeremy Jones express any sorrow for was himself. And I think that speaks a lot about the kind of man that Jeremy Jones is. It was somewhere toward the end of December of 2004, the first time he mentioned Jennifer Judd. I know that she's not here, I can't say anything. From ID and Arc Media, I'm Sarah Kalin, and this is Who Killed Jennifer Judd?

It's weird that it says Pitcher Gorillas since 1918, but we know they were already supplying lead in 17, so maybe the high school just wasn't open yet. I'm driving with our series producer, Danielle. Just ahead of us is a water tower with giant red letters, proudly announcing we've arrived in Pitcher, Oklahoma, Jennifer Judd's hometown. Pitcher was once the world's largest exporter of lead and zinc. The highway is lined with massive chat piles, that's CHAT, made up of the toxic debris cast off from the lead mines. They look a bit like massive sand dunes.

We pull up in front of Jennifer's high school. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pitcher Carden High School, you can just barely make it out. And so, it was probably all of this. It has the historic look of a school built in the early 1900s. Jennifer graduated in a class of just 34 students. She played basketball and softball and ran track. As a kid, she would have gone to the annual Christmas parade

or climbed to the top of the chat pile with friends to watch the Fourth of July fireworks. She likely never imagined what would become of this place. It may be the biggest environmental disaster you've never heard of. Welcome to Pitcher, Oklahoma, one of the most toxic places in America. The northeastern Oklahoma city of Pitcher

has seen its population go from more than 12,000 people to less than 20. In 2013, the town of Pitcher was officially dissolved. The high school is still standing. The rest of Pitcher is open fields, a few cement slabs now and then, lots of overgrown brush peppered with an occasional house still standing, but just barely.

It's like the point in a zombie movie when you are transported to 50 years after the catastrophic events, and all that stands are the skeletal remains of a once thriving civilization. So that would have been a house. You're right. This probably would have been a house. These are all driveways. These are driveways. During her sophomore year of high school, Jennifer started working as a cashier at a convenience store.

We punched the address into Google Maps. It seems to have like no idea where I am. Oh good, we're going to go right by this. I put my blinker on in a ghost town. It's tough to find buildings in a town that no longer exists. Google Maps can't seem to find anything either, and sends us to a gas station one town over. Okay, we're going someplace else. Finally.

You can see the gas station. Yeah, you can see what it used to be. Okay, you can see the pubs there. We pull over to the right and get out to look around. This is where Jennifer Judd worked from 1988 to 1992. Back then, this cement slab was a bustling gas station and convenience store called the Pitcher Express. Jeremy Jones claims to have known Jennifer,

and I wonder if the Pitcher Express might be where Jeremy and Jennifer met, if they ever did. I wonder who else Jennifer might have met while working solo shifts here. I've read that Jennifer started asking her dad to follow her home from work in the last week of her life. If this is true, I want to know who Jennifer might have been afraid of. I also want to know why she didn't tell Justin. The answer could be simple.

Justin worked early shifts. Jennifer worked late shifts. He might have needed to go to sleep before her shift ended. Or the answer could be complicated. One rumor has it that Justin was letting his friend, Chuck Chance, use the apartment as a drug pickup and Jennifer caught Chuck stashing drugs behind a toilet. Was Jennifer scared of one of Justin's friends? Another rumor posits that Jennifer was killed in a so-called hired hit that Justin paid

someone to kill her. This one, at least, I can rule out. What hitman arrives without a weapon, just hoping there might be some knives somewhere within reach? No. I can't start to vet rumors until I have a closer look at the initial investigative case files. So far, the only official document I've seen

is the original autopsy report. I know how Jennifer died. Three stab wounds to the back, six to the chest, and I know there was some struggle from the contusions on her head and hands. When we see nine or more stab wounds, it indicates we are very likely dealing with a sexually motivated

homicide. I don't know of any other evidence at the scene to suggest an over it sexual assault, but the correlation between the number of stab wounds and the likelihood of sexual motivation is something that's been studied widely in recent decades and means I'll be looking for any signs investigators might have overlooked. The coroner puts her death at 10.17 a.m. on the Monday morning after Mother's Day in 1992. The instruments used to kill her were from her own knife set, a wedding present she'd only just unwrapped and set up.

I know Justin was at work and was alibied by enough witnesses that I have no question about his involvement, which is to say, there was none. But that's really it. I mean, that's it for sure. I know people have gossiped over the years about drug deals and tearful fights. I know what armchair detectives down Reddit rabbit holes have theorized about hitmen and stalkers. And I know all about Jeremy Jones' claim that his love for Jennifer turned to rage.

The only way to unravel this tangled knot, to pull out a truth that is certainly bound up in so many lies will be to go back to the very beginning. To pretend as though no investigation has ever been done. To start from scratch with the scene, with Jennifer, and with each of the characters in the story of her murder. That's why I met the Pitcher Express on this overcast morning in March 2024. I'm still waiting on the case files, and in the meantime, all I can do is retrace the steps I know Jennifer took in the final week of her life.

I'm hoping the drive from Pitcher Express to the Judd's apartment in Baxter Springs, Kansas will offer clues to what Jennifer might have been afraid of and what might have happened at her apartment on the morning of May 11, 1992. It's about a 15-minute drive. Danielle and I set out. If you're driving alone at 11 p.m. and you're scared of someone, this isn't where I would want to be driving. And the thing is, like, what strikes me about it...

Am I going right? We're driving in daylight, but I haven't seen a streetlight for miles. We miss the main intersection and make the next left onto a gravel road. We pass a few farmhouses. The road bends to the right through a patch of trees and over a creek. Out here in the middle of nowhere, there's a strip club.

Weird. We drive through another cluster of pecan trees and then the beginning of a neighborhood. I know this is like what we're at right now is Route 66. We turn left and drive through downtown Baxter Springs. A few old-timey gas stations, a mechanics shop, signs for a Civil War battleground, another mechanic, and then a coffee shop. This is our street.

We turn left with the coffee shop on one side and a large fence surrounding a public waterworks on the other. Just past the waterworks, we make our first right. So this is the house. It's a gray ranch with two side-by-side apartments. Blue shutters. It looks a bit like a motel. The road is roughly paved. The house is the only building on it. Is the house and the location what you expected? Not really. I think for some reason I had pictured it being much more part of the neighborhood. There is a big sprawling neighborhood and then there is one road where all the neighborhood houses

stop and then on the other side of that road and set 50 or 100 yards from that is this one duplex by itself. I wonder if it felt this isolated back in 1992. And remind me again, they came in through the front door or she was near the front door? The lunch was found in the car, and the keys were found kind of just inside

like a little bit in from the doorway. So it was almost like she went back in for something. And a lot of the speculation I've seen from a number of people, and of course, who knows if it's true or not, but she was supposed to be returning a video, a rented video. And so she may have forgotten, ran back in, and either someone came in behind her,

or, and we can't see it from here, there was supposedly a sliding glass door at the back. And so somebody could have come in the sliding glass door and surprised her when she came in. Or could have been hiding in the house. Not even through the sliding glass door, but I mean, could have been in the house. Absolutely.

Absolutely, they could have gone in after Justin left. Nothing I've read indicates a person came to her house intending to kill her or anyone else. They used knives from her kitchen. A killer with a plan comes with a weapon in hand. Then again, seeing the distance from Historic Route 66 to the house, I can't rule out the possibility that a stranger did this in an act of spontaneous violence. The front door is visible from the highway.

This isn't the first time I'm in this area to investigate a murder, and while I think Jeremy Jones might be the link between the two cases, I cannot be sure this wasn't a random act of violence. Leslie Bissell and Lisa Bible Broderick greet me with warm hugs and big smiles. I met Lisa and Leslie years ago when I first came to this area investigating the 1999 disappearance of Lisa's cousin. Yes, another case to which Jeremy Jones confessed. Another confession local authorities dismissed.

Leslie has been in law enforcement in the area for more than 20 years. She holds a degree in forensic psychology and is now the executive director of the Child Advocacy Center of Ottawa County, responsible for overseeing every single investigation into any crime against a child countywide. That's where we're meeting. Do you guys want to look? You want a tour? Yes! Lisa's in a black bomber jacket and pink pants with a stack of black and pink jeweled bangles on one of her wrists. Leslie's in black pants and a bright pink top. Both have long brown hair with barrel curls, shimmery eyeshadow and deep purple lipstick.

I'm always amazed by the women in this part of the country. It seems there's never a strand of hair or a touch of makeup out of place, in stark contrast with myself, to be sure. We settle into a conference room. I explain how I want to approach this case and why I want Leslie's help. The reason I thought of you, like, right away

is having worked as an officer and an investigator and in children's services like your institutional knowledge of kind of the lay of the land of this region with criminal activity from low level to the worst of it, it's probably about as good as anybody I know in the region. That's why I picked you. I don't know a lot about the case. I don't know a lot of people. This area is complicated.

Not just Pitcher, all of it. It's the intersection of Oklahoma, Missouri, Kansas, and Arkansas. Today we're in Miami, Oklahoma, a few minutes' drive from Jones's childhood home. It's a beautiful but often heartbreaking part of the country full of many wonderful people and many more who didn't get the best lot in life.

I'm fully aware I need an insider to help me navigate. You're one of us. Oh man, I knew about Jeremy Jones. I didn't know that he was ever ruled out or dismissed as a... He's just such a liar. He is. It's just hard to... Leslie didn't know Jones.

She's a few years younger, and like Jennifer, Leslie grew up in Pitcher. Her sister was friends with Jennifer in high school. Lisa, on the other hand. When we were in school together, he was a little older than me. Yeah. So he was 91, okay, yeah. I mean, I think the guy's capable of anything,

but I mean, thinking back to the Jeremy that I knew then. Lisa knew Jones when they were students at Miami High School. He raped a girl when we were in high school. With a hairbrush was what we heard. It was object rape already by high school. Is that why he got kicked out of school? Yeah, I don't remember.

We didn't know that he had raped the girls. That's so bold for that age. Jones got kicked out of Miami early in his senior year. He claimed it was for getting in a fight. I wonder if it had more to do with this attack. I assume the details are in a sealed record given his age at the time. Leslie says she'll try to pull the record.

Look in the early 90s, like 90 to 92 maybe. He would have been how old? Seven, 17. The path any violent psychopath takes will be unique, partly directed by his own life circumstances. But brutal sexual assault, especially one so bold as to be committed in front of a witness, is unusual at that young of an age. It makes me think his destructive behaviors, his expressions of violence,

would have had to have begun showing up already years earlier. To be so dangerous even before legal adulthood means that as he escalates, he will do so dramatically. His actions will be extremely violent and he will become an effective, efficient predator if he is not stopped at the first possible opportunity. Right now, I'm most interested in trying to sort through more of Jones' statements. Of all the things Jones says in the confession tapes, one seems like a fairly easy point to verify. Here's Jones being questioned by an officer. Did you ever run with them during the time

after they got engaged? I mean, they were kind of on again all the time. This is the powwows, you're in pain? Jones says he met Jennifer's husband, Justin Judd, at summer powwows hosted by the Qua Paw Nation, and they partied together. I asked Leslie and Lisa if this seems plausible. We have nine tribes here,

and all nine tribes have powwows. Usually like their big one once a year. He's probably talking about KwaPow Powwow because it's the biggest. Back then there used to be a lot of partying that went on drinking, and now the powwow grounds are alcohol and drug free, but you know, people probably sneak stuff in.

As for whether Jones could have partied with Justin Judd at one of these powwows, Leslie thinks it's unlikely. He was probably dancing. I mean, he's probably dancing at the powwow, I would assume. Oh, right, because he's native. Yeah, I mean, he's legitimately an Indian. Chuck Chance, he could have been partying with Chuck Chance, I guess. I could easily see Jones saying,

oh yeah, I know that guy because I party with him at the powwow, knowing that he would be at a powwow. But just knowing Justin Judd, I can tell you that I don't think he would take the time to, he would not give Jeremy Jones much of his time. Lisa thinks it's possible that Jeremy Jones spent time at a powwow, but not with Justin Judd, or Jennifer Judd for that matter.

She was more upper class. Especially if she was with him. And Jeremy was trash. It sounds like Jones saw Justin and Chuck at Pow Wow's and embellished their interactions. This makes sense, because a clever enough psychopath can turn a kernel of truth into an entire bag of popcorn. As we're talking, I'm reminded how small this area is.

Each name I mention, they can tell me a personal connection. And it happens again when I mention the man who was considered the primary suspect in 1992, Chuck Chance. Chuck was part of Jennifer and Justin's friend group. He was with Justin when Justin found Jennifer's body. Chuck Chance, I did not ever know about Chuck Chance. I did not know that Chuck Chance was even a suspect. I know a know about Chuck Chance. I did not know that Chuck Chance was even a suspect. I know a lot about Chuck Chance.

It's the same Chuck Chance that escaped from the jail here and went to wherever. He went to a Chili's. This is just about true. He escaped from jail, and cops caught up with him at Chili's. So I know his sister. Do you?

Could you put us in touch with her? Yeah, she's right over there. Leslie points to a building across the street. She's a therapist for... Oh, so when you pointed there, you were not pointing at the jail? No, she's a therapist for the Shawnee tribe. She loves her brother,

but she knows that her brother's done wrong. Leslie offers to ask Chuck's sister if she'll speak with me. I'm about to ask her about someone else when she beats me to it. There's people that speculate about the husband. Justin Judd. I have no interest in him whatsoever as a suspect.

Leslie's face softens as I say this. I can tell you that the husband, Justin, is a good man. He's a friend of mine. He's still emotionally distraught. Like, he has not processed her death, I don't think. He'll probably say, oh, yeah, I have. I don't think that he has. He was like just a big teddy bear, you know?

But I'll show you. She pulls out her phone and opens Facebook to show me a photo. That's him, his mom. He's a big Indian dude. I mean, he's... Like, I wouldn't mess around with him. No! Oh, my God!

Like, he's not somebody I would want to make mad. Justin looks friendly. He's an imposing figure, even in pictures. He's tall and sturdy. He remarried imposing figure, even in pictures. He's tall and sturdy. He remarried and divorced, but is the very proud dad of a son and a daughter. He's moved around a bit and now works in Tulsa, Oklahoma, as a firefighter at an oil refinery. I remember like, it's probably been a year or more. I've never saw him post anything about her.

I've never saw him post anything about her. I've never saw him say, and he put something on Facebook that was like, I've been reading through these letters that she wrote me, like love letters, and something about, there's this speculation, or I want people to know what kind of a heart she had. And he would like put a quote of what she had said, you know.

And I thought, man, he hasn't processed that. He's probably had these letters stuck in a box all this time and he's just now looking at them. I've never suspected that it was him. Friends, maybe that might make sense. Do you think he would speak to me? I could probably message him and talk to him over the phone and just see what he says.

And you can let him know literally nothing is more important to me in the course of something like this than caring for the loved ones of the victims. Leslie offers to reach out to a few of Jennifer's friends and Jennifer's sister to see if they want to speak with me. We say our goodbyes, and I start the 30-minute drive back to my Airbnb. I'm pulling into the driveway when Leslie calls. She's already set up meetings with two more of Jennifer's friends.

I can't wait to hear what they have to say. Leslie adds that Justin got back to her, and he's willing to speak with me. I'll reach out. First, I need to speak with another of Jennifer's friends. She's someone Jones mentions in his confession. And if anyone knows if Jennifer Judd and Jeremy Jones knew each other, she'll be the one. knew each other, she'll be the one.

When Jeremy Jones spoke with Kansas Bureau of Investigation agents in 2005, they talked about a woman named Chrisinda Housh. Jones has written letters to her. She responded, the agents say they know, and Chris has called them. Hearing this, Jones makes a request. When I first heard this piece of tape, I wondered about Jones's relationship with Chris. He describes her as a childhood friend, and he clearly holds her in high regard.

I wanted to know why she'd write to Jones and how well she knew him. I sent her a message and never heard back. Then a few days after talking to Leslie and Lisa, she reached out. Lisa had vouched for me, and Chris agreed to come to my Airbnb and talk the next Monday. The sun's still high in the sky around 6, and there's no sign of Chris. I put together a cheese plate—I do love hosting—and when it's fully stocked, I sit down on the couch. I wait. I'm starting to wonder if she's changed her mind.

And then I hear a car pull into the driveway. A woman walks to the door. She's in a blue blouse and khaki dress pants, her hair pulled back in a ponytail, her work ID clipped to the pocket on her shirt. She looks tense. My dog, George, pitter-patters over to say hi. She lights up, tells me she has corgis, too.

We settle into the couches, and she explains the tension I saw on her face. My husband was not thrilled with me coming to meet with you, and several of my friends thought it was a horrible idea. But after you first messaged, I haven't stopped thinking about it again. Chris knew Jones growing up, but she was also close friends with Jennifer.

That's why she's here. I would like to see something move on the case. Chris mentions Jennifer's mom, Debbie. She tells us Debbie's health is declining. She's not the first to have mentioned this. I would also like to see it solved just for her and Dale to know who and even why. I assure her I'm searching for answers to both of these questions.

I also tell Chris I've spoken with Jennifer's sister. She is the main spokesperson for the family these days, but she says they'd prefer not to be interviewed for the podcast. Chris says it's been hard on their family all these years. I completely get it. I've let them know the door is always open if they change their minds, but I won't press any further.

Chris pulls out her iPhone. I've got a picture of her on my phone now. She's flipping through photos in a Facebook album. She squints at a group picture. Let's see, I don't think he was that opportunity-oriented. I realize she's looking for Jeremy Jones. So that would have been, what, 2001? Yeah.

No, he was on the run. Was he on the run? Yeah. He was John Paul Chapman at that point. My goal is to get to know more about Jones, to start to paint a full picture of his personality and perhaps gain insight into his development. First-hand accounts are the best way to do so,

and Chris has known Jones longer than anyone else I know. Before I even ask, Chris starts to explain. I guess it started probably second or third grade, and I'm 51 now. Jeremy, Jeannie, and Tony Beard lived behind my grandmother's house. So him, myself, and a young man named J.R. Conrad, we would all ride bikes together in the summer

and play hide and seek and whatever when I was at my grandma's house. So I grew up with him. And then, you know, didn't ever seem anywhere except when I was at my grandma's. And then he gets kicked out of my in the schools and ends up in Quapaw. And I really don't have anything really,

he's not, I was in athletics and outgoing and stuff and he was more the quiet kind of opt in the side, different personality, just different. And so we didn't really have a lot to do with each other in high school. After graduation, she left for college, and after that, she moved away from the area altogether. Then one day, out of the blue, her parents called to say

there was a letter for her, a letter from Jeremy Jones. By then, Jones had been arrested in connection with a murder in Mobile, Alabama. The letter didn't say much, just a general hello, as if they were old friends catching up. Chris could see that it was mailed from a jail, so she thought it might be important to let someone know. She took the letter to the police.

The cops asked Chris to continue writing to him. Chris had heard rumors from Jennifer's family that Jones claimed to have killed Jennifer. Chris is by nature a very direct, open person. I said if you're ever going to tell me anything I want to know about Jen and his next letter came and he was wanting envelopes and stamps and all kinds of stuff. And I wrote him again and he wrote me back and he never would say anything about it. But he's had random women contact me

through Facebook Messenger and say, Jeremy wants you to write him. It is interesting that all those years later that it was still you he wanted to talk to. Chris doesn't get it, and she was really thrown by what happened next. Last time when the KBI had said, go ahead and write him, you know, respond back, see if there's anything that you'll know. They went down to see him not long after that. Yes.

That's the interview that we have. And I was told that he didn't give any information about Jennifer, that he wouldn't respond about it and that he was only working them to get stuff given to him. He was feeding them information this way for more attention. Like KBI said to you, he did not give us any information? Yes. He drew a diagram of her apartment.

He told them what he did with the knife. He gave them a tremendous amount of information. Now that being said, he did say to them, please don't tell Chrissy. They wanted me to write him. Why would they tell me? What a bunch of assholes. It's difficult to say if the police had a tactic here. On one hand, as weird as it sounds, maybe they were really keeping their word to Jones. He had begged them not to tell Chris anything he would say about Jennifer's murder, and they agreed.

But on the other hand, when have you ever heard of cops keeping their word to a serial killer just to be nice? It doesn't pass the smell test. They never corrected the record when the press printed Jones' claims that he'd never told anyone he killed Jennifer. Chris looks confused as to why she's the one he chose to keep in touch with. I try to talk her through it. Cereal predation is, it is very easy most of the time and I describe a lot of serial killers this way as basically like demons in skin suits. Like these are not, you know, psychopaths and sociopaths are not really like normal humans.

They mimic human behavior, right? But they don't feel things the same way that we do. But there are, you know, like any spectrum of mental health stuff. There's obviously, you know, there's a range of things. There are a range of factors. And I get the sense from the way he talks about you and then just hearing everything that he engaged in, that he truly, like he adored you. Like, and I mean that I'm sure that that feels probably creepy.

It was always just like, she's so smart and she's so much better than I am. And like, it just sort of seems like he was sort of a weird kid. We know home was not good. No, he had a bad home life. Real bad. And it feels like there was a kindness from you. And my grandma.

And your grandma that touched this little soft spot that was still left in this person. Yeah. that touched this little soft spot that was still left in this person. Yeah, I don't know how many times my grandma called the police on Tony for beating on Jeremy and his younger brother. Tony too, that's interesting because I know that Jeannie was not Mother of the Year. I've heard all sorts of rumors about Jones's mother, Jeannie. She's the first person Jones called when Paul Birch arrested him in Mobile, Alabama. She remarried sometime early in Jones's childhood to a man named Tony.

I have no proof of Tony or Jeannie abusing Jones. I am looking for it, because both physical and sexual abuse in childhood can have an extensive impact on a person's psychological development. In order to fully understand Jones, I'm going to try to verify the rumors in the course of this investigation, and part of that means hearing from people who knew the whole family. Chris is the first person I've met who actually interacted with Jeannie. She describes Jeannie differently. Jeannie was very good-hearted.

She was a very hard worker. There wasn't a lazy bone in her. She would help my grandma clean the garage or help her come over and do yard work or anything. She was very helpful. And Jeannie herself was a good neighbor. It was Tony that raised the pit bulls and the fighting dogs that had them hooked on chains.

And my grandma was a big animal lover. And so that kind of rubbed back and forth. This is the first time I've ever heard that Tony was abusive. Like we have heard stories, direct stories about Jeannie and stuff, but that's really interesting to know. You know, I don't know, I just always sort of had this thought of him as kind of like maybe he was under her thumb or whatever. No, that whole side of the street was just batshit crazy.

Her dad lived on the corner, and then they lived in the house next door to him. It was just kind of nutty all the time. It was always racket, fighting, screaming, yelling. One of them riding dirt bikes up and down the alley. It was just always really loud. I ask about Jones arriving at Chris's high school, Quapaw, for their senior year.

Did he explain why he was kicked out of Miami High School? We were under the assumption that he just walked out. I didn't know anything about the sexual abuse, you know, until years later. She gets a sheepish look on her face. I didn't even know we had drugs in our high school at all. And I'm still flabbergasted today. I was so naive about some things. But Jeremy had a tag on his car called Candyman.

And I've been told by several people that I went to high school with that he could get you anything you wanted. That early already he could get you anything. That's interesting. Chris didn't know anything about this in high school. She thought Jones was just a quiet kid. That's why when he was about to be expelled from Quapaw, Chris defended him. There was an incident in the parking lot where he spit out in his car and threw chap all over the parking lot.

And Mr. Merritt, our high school principal, kicked him out of school. But Mr. Merritt's son the day before had done the exact same thing in the parking lot. And so I spoke to the school board and tried to keep him in school for another three or four weeks before he would graduate. I'm intrigued by this story. I've never heard it, and it gives me deeper insight into why Jones might still be infatuated with Chris. No matter what else is going on in that man's mind, there is still a little boy who was

physically and probably sexually abused and very few people were kind to him in the world. And you stand out as somebody who was kind to him. Like you have, he has positive memories of you as a little kid. He was just like riding bikes all the way through to you saying, that's not fair. You can't do that to him. Chris looks pained. I feel bad telling her any of this. I don't mean to imply she did something wrong or missed signs of what was to come. Children are children. She had no way of knowing what he would do as an adult. The signs of sociopathy and psychopathy can begin to show themselves early in life,

though they may not be obvious markers of future problems until they're observed through the lens of backwards examination. Often we realize only in hindsight that childhood and teenage behavior was of a darker, more nefarious variety because we're examining the individual's whole trajectory. These antisocial personality disorders

are in fact something one is born with. And while they do not predetermine a path of violence and destruction, the signs can be seen from a young age. Psychopaths with intelligence will also figure out at a young age that they must learn to mask their thoughts and impulses in order to blend in and be accepted. So while there were likely signs that Jones was very different from other kids she played with, Chris has no reason to wonder why she never picked up on who he really was.

He would have carefully crafted a persona and engaged in behaviors designed to make her like and trust him. Still, she wrestles with how the boy she knew became a serial killer. Back then, he was just a weird kid who lived near her grandma. He sounds like a few kids I knew in high school. I have my senior yearbook where you open the yearbook up

and I'm pretty sure he wrote, I've always wanted to sign your crack in the crack of the book. I think he signed over his face. That's actually very interesting. That's quite an interesting tale. That he doesn't think he's good looking. That he doesn't think he's attractive or anybody would like him.

He'd cover up his own face. He doesn't want to see it. He may have signed every single one of his pictures in the yearbook. By now, there's one question burning a hole in my brain. Do you think Jones could have done it? When I had been talking with the KBI, they would call me every five to seven years, re-interview me to see if I remembered anything from the previous seven years. And I don't ever remember anything about Jeremy and Jen,

you know, anything one way or the other. But I would have never thought that he would have done the things that he's done too. I've never seen that side. I don't remember him ever being a masculine, smooth talking guy. No, he doesn't seem like that. You get the art stuff, and you get this kind of, like,

super smiley, friendly guy. He's reasonably intelligent. He seems to have, you know, some sort of a sense of, like, a silly kind of sense of humor that you get from the conversation, until there is this, like this like click and he starts talking about these things and it really is like a different person. It's really it's like a different person is talking through him almost. He is not charming, he's not funny. He says terrible things. Terrible things. We've been talking about Jeremy Jones for a while,

and I want to make sure we have a chance to talk about Jennifer, and whether it's possible that Jones knew Jennifer in the ways he claims. Of course, it's possible that Jones knew Jennifer, even if she didn't know him. He might've first seen her at the Pitcher Express. He could have been going in there after school every day,

getting snacks or whatever, seeing her, and she's like oblivious to him. And he's developing this sort of like fantasy relationship with her, because, you know, his version of events is they have this like affair. Chris contorts her face, expressing disgust and telling me there's absolutely no chance that Jennifer was having an affair with Jones. So as far as you know, Jen never knew him. I mean, if he knew her, she did not know him.

Not ever to say anything to me like, oh Chris, do you know Jeremy? He's going to school at Quapaw now or anything like that. Chris, do you know Jeremy? He's going to school at Quapaw now or anything like that. Did Jen ever go to the Pow Wows, the Quapaw Pow Wows? Sure. Everybody did. Is there a world in which he could have, like, met her there, even casually? Because his story involves talking

to her at one of the Pow Wows. If he would have come up and been BSing with the guys and whoever that was there, if Jim was with Justin, I mean, there was a, we all traveled in packs back then. I mean, he could have been talking to him, although they absolutely, I can't see where they would have anything in common at all. Chris clarifies that she didn't spend a ton of time with Jennifer and Justin for classic reasons.

She didn't like the man that I was dating when I graduated from high school and I didn't think Justin was good enough for her. We've heard sort of like titterings that the wedding was at one point called off or was almost called off or anything. Did she ever say anything to you about that? She points at the microphone. Interesting.

We've been talking for more than an hour. We must be getting into something that she isn't entirely comfortable talking about. There was issues throughout the whole time they dated, just and cheated. I had heard about the wedding potentially being called off. This could explain why. Then again, we're talking about high school kids.

One instance that seems silly now, thinking back on it. I was in the gym locker room changing clothes for basketball practice, and I seen a young lady on the team, and she had on the watch that Jen had bought Justin. And so I get out of school and immediately call her and she comes over, I can't remember if that car was a Monte Carlo, but it had all this stuff hanging

from the rear view mirror. I mean, it was just tons of stuff. So we went out to her house and I went to the door and got the watch and brought it back out. And that was the end of stuff. So we went out to her house and I went to the door and got the watch and brought it back out. And that was the end of that. Did she ever express anything to you about any sort of physical abuse from him? She called me from Colorado, from a pay phone,

and wanted me to come and get her. She had went out to go see Justin to visit and something physical had happened. And I told her, I said, I cannot drive to Colorado and get you. You have got to call your mom and dad. And then I'm thinking Debbie and Dale drove out to get her and brought her back.

This is new information. Chris isn't sure exactly what happened and doesn't remember exactly when it happened. She believes it was sometime in 1991 or 1992. So not too long before, I mean, if the wedding was May of 92. It could have been 90. Was that the only incident that you heard of? Chris looks at the microphone. We turn it away, but she keeps talking. Was that the only incident that you heard of? Chris looks at the microphone.

We turn it away, but she keeps talking. Jennifer was a drama queen. She could throw a fit better than any woman I know, even to this day. And there were lots of screaming, yelling arguments, but I never did see anything physical or any marks on her or anything like that. Other than the Colorado thing, she didn't... did she elaborate with Colorado? No, after she came home we didn't talk about it. They broke up once and she dated a very nice young man from Columbus, Kansas, and we all loved him. He was a good guy, and we wanted her to stay with him.

Chris's eyes drift a bit as she says this. She seems to be imagining another way Jennifer's life could have worked out. I asked her about another rumor. Did she know of Justin being involved with drugs? No, the only thing I ever thought was steroids because his personality would fluctuate up and down so much all the time.

And then he was working out and the size that he was, from the size he graduated from high school to the size that he became. He knew there had to be some help. And there were other guys in there that was also taking him at the time. I asked Chris about a few other rumors

and she tells me none ever seemed credible. This is expected. When there's an unsolved murder, people start talking. Everyone wants answers, and sometimes, in the absence of answers, people create them. Chris gets it, and she explains why she quickly dismissed any rumors she heard. She was smitten with Justin. Yeah. She had eyes for him and nobody else.

I wonder if somebody else could have had eyes for her and she wouldn't have even noticed? No. I don't want to say Jen was clueless, but she had such an outgoing, bubbly personality. I mean, you couldn't help but love her, you know? I don't even think another guy would turn her head. I mean, she was smitten. This tracks with what I know about Jennifer. I move on to another rumor I've heard.

Did she tell you who she thought was following her that warranted her having her dad drive behind her home from work at night in those last weeks? No. Do you know anything about that? She didn't tell me anything about that. How about the rumors that Justin Judd is involved? What is your level of confidence of his innocence?

I don't think he did it. I feel like it was somebody she knew and she let him in the house and it went downhill from there. Now she looks directly at the microphone and gently pushes it away. Chris tells me what she thinks happened to Jennifer. She names a woman I never considered. The reason I'm having an internal meltdown right now is I have posed through several avenues the thought that it could have been a female assailant, which 99% of the time,

I just won't even consider when you look at these types of cases. It's like, no, there are elements of this one that led me to think it could be. Not that I thought it was, but that I would not exclude any female suspects. I'm shocked, truly. I don't know what to say.

I can't share Chris's theory because I'm true to my word, but I am going to investigate it fully. We talk for more than three hours. Chris's husband calls multiple times. Chris sends them all to voicemail. She's given me so much to consider, and I know I'll talk to her again. I want to wrap up soon so we know I'll talk to her again. I want to wrap up soon so we can let our accuracy go to her core release.

Yeah, there's no telling what they've tore up. She promises to look for the letters Joan sent her from prison. They might have been destroyed in a flood, she's not sure, but if she has them, she'll send them to us. I can see that she's thinking about something. I'm still so, I can't believe you mentioned my name.

Do you have this on tape? I do. Can I watch that? Let me double check with Sheriff Birch and just make sure it's okay. Because it is, you know, it's evidence in multiple crimes. That's so crazy. You know, it's evidence in multiple crimes. That's so crazy.

Hmm. I'm not sure about this. I feel slightly uncomfortable even thinking about showing her. She may think she wants to watch it, but actually seeing and hearing Jones talk about her and talk about murdering her friend, it could be much more painful than she imagines.

And the last thing I want to do is traumatize anyone further. We say our goodbyes. I ask her to text me when she gets home. About 20 minutes later, my phone buzzes on the arm of the couch. It's Chris. She didn't find the letters yet, but she did find Jeremy's senior class photo. On the back, he wrote, Maybe we could go out sometime. You're hot.

Chris sends a bunch of grossed out emojis. I feel like I'm developing a clearer picture of Jennifer's life and Jones's potential motive. I check my email. I'm itching to see case files, and like clockwork, I get a notification on my phone. I have a new email from Sheriff Groves of the Cherokee County Sheriff's Office. He wrote,

Just wanted to touch base to see if you were still in the area and if so, if you want to meet at our office at one tomorrow. You bet your ass I do. Next time on Who Killed Jennifer Judd. Jeremy Jones, we were friends in high school. Jesus Christ, collected 615, submitted. 615 of 92, submitted in 2014. They were into drugs and stuff.

I didn't find that out until 20, 30 years later down the road. Who Killed Jennifer Judd is produced by Arc Media for ID. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it if you could take a second to leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts.