Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom? - Ep.2: The Original Investigation

Episode Date: March 1, 2023

Sarah revisits the original 1993 investigation into the murder of Renee Bergeron and pretty quickly realizes that the detectives stumbled from the outset. Sarah tries to account for what - and who - they failed to understand in their original investigation.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You know what's crazy? I actually did a spirit box session in a cemetery I asked what do you miss the most in the spirit said sex? Yeah, right. I'm Dalyne Spratt on urban legends with the Ghost Brothers the podcast We get into the nitty and gritty of paranormal ghosts and urban legends and we have a good time I hear voices and I'm running up this mountain at some point lost my pants like running up Okay, that's fair. Listen to urban legends with the Ghost Brothers, wherever you get your podcasts.

This podcast contains explicit language and descriptions of violence. Please be advised. This one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, This is Detective Kevin Putnam of the Mobile County Sheriff's Office, preparing to interview someone as part of his investigation into the brutal murder of Renee Bergeron. For nearly three decades, this murder has remained unsolved. Renee Bergeron's file has sat, collecting dust,

untouched for all these years, until now. For ID and ARC media, I'm Sarah Kaelin, and this is why can't we talk about Amanda's mom? A podcast documenting my three-year investigation into the 1993 murder of Renee Bergeron. Last episode, we learned about Renee, a 26-year-old woman from New Orleans who lived in Mobile, Alabama.

In 1993, Renee was murdered and decapitated. Her body deposited on a service road off Interstate 10 in a rural corner of Mobile County. It had no head and it was laying on its stomach. The body had been cleaned up, had no fluids. The wound and the manner in which this perpetrator, disease, decapitation appears to be somewhat amateurist. You know, when there's a crime such as a beheading,

that spreads throughout the law enforcement community because it's unusual. They search our huge injustice by not looking at it thoroughly. It's kind of like one less prostitute on a street. There are approximately four to five thousand pages of files as part of the investigation into the murder of René Bergeron, and I need to go through these files every single page of them. There are interview transcripts, forensic documents, crime scene photos, cassette tapes, press releases, tips. Even police reports from other investigations that at some point might have been considered

relevant to this case. I even find copies of Renee's personal documents and effects. Her calendar and address book, mail from her house, letters, photos. But there's one thing. Well, technically four things I find that will become my Rosetta Stone in this case. Four stenopads filled entirely in handwritten notes, each page covered front and back.

Mostly in the handwriting of a guy named Kevin Putnam, detective, Kevin Putnam, that is. There's a miscaputinum for you, T&A. handwriting of a guy named Kevin Putnam, detective Kevin Putnam that is. President, is it Putnam PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUTNUM PUT Like most officers, he writes in all caps, block letters. It's the way many of us are trained, and attempt at uniform legibility. I had this same writing habit drilled into me almost 25 years ago, back when I first started work as an officer. In law enforcement, an officer's notebook is practically sacred. Like being taught to write in block letters,

we have it drilled into us early and often that our notebooks are forever. It's a permanent record that can be called upon for court or referenced in future investigations or even served to protect us from claims of negligence. This is why when it came time to understand the original investigation in 93, I went straight to the notebooks. These notebooks are written in a kind of code. They're meant for the individual officer to be able

to reference later, if necessary, to recall people or events. Jotted notes, names in the margin with an arrow drawn to another name or to an address, phone numbers with only initials next to them. They're not exactly a clear narrative, but they are in chronological order documenting the progress of the detective.

These four notebooks tell the story of the initial investigation into the murder of Renee Burjeron. They begin with the date and time Putnam was first called to the scene. Sunday afternoon, November 14, 1993. There, he logs a few bullet points describing what he saw when he arrived. He sketches a quick diagram showing the location of Renee's

body in reference to the roads and buildings nearby. From there, his notes progress, with interviews, leads, pieces of evidence, continuing until the spring of 1994 when they begin to peter out. This is when the Mobile County Sheriff's Office appears to have hit a dead end, even though her case was not yet solved, not even close. Basically, these notebooks show the meat of the case, and help me piece together how the initial investigation went down, who investigators spoke with, what they looked into, and how they talked about Renee.

And all of this is important because as far as Renee's family is concerned, law enforcement is to blame here, not for the murder itself, but for the fact that Renee's case has yet to be solved. It was never looked at her as a human being or definitely not as my mom or anybody's mom or anybody's daughter or anybody's sister. It was looked at as one less prostitute we got to worry about. So it's like a good luck dealing with them because, you, because we had no luck, no help. Amanda's skepticism is understandable.

She believes that the early investigators, including Putnam, made stereotype assumptions about who her mom Renee was and who might have been responsible for her murder. And worse than that, she says that detectives ignored Renee's loved ones, even as they begged them to pursue new leads. So I'm now going to examine the original investigation

into Renee's murder, who worked it, what they did, and did not do, and whether they might be responsible, in part, for the fact that this case remains unsolved. When I first got on to Sheriff's Office, it was a small group of guys that were best friends. They party together, they drank after work together. I never fit in. This is Mitch McCray.

He worked at the Mobile County Sheriff's Office for 27 years before retiring as a detective sergeant. He describes his early days in the office in the 1980s and 1990s. I came in and worked. I worked hard and I worked long hours. I'm not that smart, so I got to make up for it by working harder than anybody else. That's just my mentality. And these other guys, the way I picture them, as if I'd come in a substation, they'd be sitting at a desk, feet up on the desk, waiting for the phone

call, so I want to confess to a murder, where I was always out trying to chase people down, find out who did it and their opinion was, well just sit here, somebody will call, you know, we'll get that magic phone call and solve the murder by somebody calling us and telling us who did it. I'm speaking with him because I need to learn more about the Sheriff's Office back then, the same office that led the investigation into Renee's death. How did this even happen? I need some answers. I need a real look inside the culture of this office in the 90s. And Mitch isn't the only one I'm speaking to.

I ask almost every officer I meet, what was this place like back in the day? And according to just about everyone you ask, the answer is not so great. Well, there's some things I could tell you, but it's not going to be on camera. It's difficult to get cops to speak publicly and critically of their own department, even if it was in the past. They don't want to be unprofessional and disrespectful or air-dirty laundry. But privately, internally, these things are discussed,

criticized, complained about even. It's fair to say that the Mobile County Sheriff's Office of the 1990s was a vastly different agency than the one it is today, and that included the major crimes division, the guys responsible for solving murders. There was two superstars here. It was Larry Tillman and Cookie Estus. They were the murder police, they worked all the cases, and they were the best.

It's important to remember one name here, cookie estus, detective Sergeant William Estus, actually. Cookie was a nickname. I actually trained under detective Sergeant Estus. He had a lot of street smart and I learned a lot from him, a tremendous amount, but he also taught me a lot of what not to do. And Cookie's passed away now. He's a good man.

He tried hard, but my personal opinion, he would put on blinders. He would focus on you, and if he could prove it was you, fine. If he couldn't, he'd just lose interest in it. One other thing about cookie is he didn't want anybody else interfering in his cases. He didn't want anybody else's opinion his cases. He didn't want anybody else's opinion.

So that's Cookie for you. He was one of the two leads on the investigation into Renee's murder. The other lead on the case was Putnam. It is his handwriting that is all over the synopads. Still, both detectives show up in the cassette tape interviews. And these, combined with the notebooks, give a loose account of how the investigation went down. This is a interview at MetroJail with Archie Lorenzo McPherson. In the first days after Renee's body is found, the detective's interview a number of people.

The following is a tape interview taken with Maurice Hill. Maurice has heard of the interviews and were asked to a young lady that you know, other than Maria Martinez. The interview renails boyfriend, Maurice, which makes sense. What is the best thing to sell, Maria? The best of my knowledge that was star-seat when I got to work. They also interview a friend of his named Freddie. You would describe Maurice as your best friend, so I like it.

You're a good guy. Maurice is a good one. Maureen says that, one heart and a fly. Okay, first of all, this interview isn't a reference to a situation. I should have your photograph earlier, it would like to be. Have you ever seen her before? The interview a local sex worker named Paulette, who said she had seen Renee on Wednesday. We don't care what your girl's done or who you've done it to

or how much dope you smoked here. What you still move from the down general all week concerned with is who killed Maria. That's all concerned about all this other conversation we had. Don't worry about it, okay? Thank you. And I don't want you to know I'm not doing this for the money. I'm doing it more for Maria."

They interview a guy who Renee had hung out with on Thursday. John, I understand that you were acquainted with Maria Marking and that's great. Funny enough, they actually interview three teenagers who Renee had gotten into a spat with in a parking lot outside a convenience store shortly before her death. Tell me what that woman was wearing that night. They gave you a remember. A blue jean jacket, I don't know what the shot was like, some type of jean pants and some ugly boots that have three different styles of way around, but purple and green and orange

and pink on it. It's not clear what the spat was about exactly, but it must have been bad for one of the teen girls to still take the time to insult Renee's boots after she died. The detectives also chat with a convenience store clerk who calls in a tip. Someone came in talking about the murder and graphic detail. They collect security camp footage from that store. As I go through the files, I create a database of every single name, address, phone number, vehicle license plate, and detail in the file. I want to see patterns to connect names and addresses to interview transcripts. But still, I'm not totally sure how some of these people came onto their radar,

and I'm struggling to understand how relevant some of this information is to the case. But what's an even bigger mystery to me is who they didn't choose to interview. The detectives do not take the time to speak at length to Renee's mom Joyce or her dad Raymond. They do not ask Renee's boyfriend Maurice about whether he knows of anyone else who they should speak to, at least not in the recorded interview. There are other tips called in, a guy who goes around town with a laminated picture of Renee. He describes her murder in detail, first to a DMV employee and then to his doctor. Another guy calls in a tip on a friend of his

who drunkenly bragged about raping someone who matched a description of Renee. A woman calls the office repeatedly the week after Renee's body was found. She leaves a message for the detectives, saying she heard screaming in the middle of the night in the woods near the crime scene. The notebooks include her original tip, then another note left saying she called while

the detectives were away. But there's no record of the detectives following up with her. What Putnam and Estes do is canvas the community. They print flyers offering a $15,000 reward. Do you know who killed this woman, the flyers read, with woman in all caps, followed by three question marks? They use an old mug shot of Renee on the flyer from a time when she was arrested.

Despite the fact that they have other more recent pictures of her on hand, including one of her with her young daughter in her lap. In press releases, the Sheriff's Office makes mention of her record, writing, and I quote, she made her living through prostitution, was a frequent user of crack cocaine, and spent much of her time on the street. Maybe the detectives think they are being smart about this. They probably think they stand the best chance of getting real information if they present

Renee in the terms by which they view her, a sex worker and drug user. Because that's how they assume others will know her. The press takes this narrative and runs with it, not that they needed much encouragement. Prostitute, crack addict, mug shot, lather, rinse, repeat, a toxic feedback loop. When the detectives canvas Theodore, the small town where Renee lived and was later found dead, they speak with two men who claim they saw a woman resembling Renee get into a car with a known drug dealer named Anesky Brown,

on either the Thursday or Friday before her body was found. But they state they only saw this from a distance and don't know for sure if it was her. This tip written down in the stenopads will become the first lead that Cookie and Putnam pursue. cookie and puttin running up this mountain. At some point, lost my pants, like running up the mountain because I heard voices. Listen to urban legends with the Ghost Brothers,

wherever you get your podcasts. I don't know. I didn't know. I didn't get the memo. Yeah, I'm not standing here all day. Casual Friday. I didn't know. I didn't get the memo. Yeah, I'm not standing here all day. It's Friday. I'm not a call. How are you?

This is Detective Matthew Pete. Matt is the most all-American guy I know. He loves baseball. Choose tobacco. Celebrates National Hot Dog Day. Today's National Hot Dog Day. Wait, it was National Hot Dog Day. Maybe it was international. It was probably National Hot Dog Day. Wait, it was National Hot Dog Day the other... Maybe it was International.

Yes, today. It was probably National Hot Dog Day without a bond. And now it's Hot Dog Day with a bond. And hot dog and chili and sourdough. Oh, it's good. Oh, that sounds good. When I am at the Mobile County Sheriff's Office, Matt is my partner in this investigation.

Together, we look through the case files, interview suspects, walk through theories and hurdles, and figure out next steps. I trust him. Matt and I want to learn more about the original investigation beyond what we could read in the case files. So we decide to speak to Detective Kevin Putnam. One of the two lead detectives on the original case,

the only one still living, and the guy whose handwriting fills up most of the stenopads. So we ask him to come in and review his notes with us. Putnam is tall, very tall. He seems to almost fill the doorway when he enters Matt's office before sitting in a chair beside the desk

And speaking with people at the sheriff's office who knew him back in the day and know him now There's always a pause They say he's an odd duck or just different from most cops stuff like that You know we're talking about the other line. There's 10 commandments. One of them is, thou shalt do no murder and that there are more murder victims out there than we will ever have them. There's many murder victims out there as there are lies that have been told. As we go through the case files, Putnam

offers up whatever pieces of information he can. And then Tammy. Which one? Hutchinson? Tammy Hutchinson, her name was all up in it. She used to rumble the crowd down there. We discussed the sources Putnam

interviewed the people who seemed to know Renee. Now here's David Young's name in my book. I didn't think he was there. Yeah, it seems like somebody talked to him once, briefly. He even says that he came in and talked to somebody once. But it came to get to Yale, had a library, a picture of victim talking about murder.

On the whole, things line up with how I had thought his investigation went. I just thought I'd get better notes in this. Look, honestly, if you didn't keep the notes that you kept, we wouldn't have anything. Cookie and Putnam zeroed in on a lead suspect within the first 48 hours after Renee's body was found. Dinesky Brown, the drug dealer mentioned earlier. So here's what happens next.

The detectives drive to Dineske's house. They ask to speak with him about a case they're investigating. Smartly, Dineske asks for a lawyer. The detectives ask to search the inside of Dineske's car, a blue Toyota Celica. Again, Dineske asks for a lawyer. So the detectives bring cadaver dogs to sniff around the car. The dog's signal that there's an odor related to human remains inside the Toyota. So now the detectives have probable cause, that is, a legal basis to search and seize the car. As they search the car, they

find sneakers, shorts, and a buck knife, the folding kind often used in hunting. The tip of the knife is broken off. The blade has a single blood smear on it, the handle has blood in the crevices. They send the knife to the state lab for testing to see if the blood matches Renee's. A month later, the results come back. No, the blood does not match Renee's. At this point, the detectives have nothing else to go on, except some guys saying Renee may be got into Dineske's car.

No other evidence suggests that Dineske's connected to her murder. The detectives are left with just hunches and biases. Dinesky was black and a drug dealer, and maybe Renee owed him money since she was known to use cocaine. It is at this point when their lead suspect Dinesky is reasonably excluded from consideration that the case begins to go cold. Over the next few months, the detectives pursue a few more leads, but none quite as ardently as Denesky Brown.

But talking to him in the present day, Putnam does remember other suspects, including one particular suspect. Renee's boyfriend, Maurice. But I do remember going to the house and I do remember him saying, sure, go ahead and look around. I remember walking through a room and looking around on the floor, especially in football because I think at a wood floor, and he'll blood gets in wood floors and just gets laid on it.

They're deep. It's dark, that kind. You went at night? Yeah. Yeah. Who went at night? Was there blood on the porch? I know there was...

It seemed like there was something worth looking at on the porch. Right. So if you would've collected it. So Putnam confirms this. There was blood on the porch at the house Renee shared with her boyfriend. He saw it the same night that Renee's body was found. I just never got the sense that he was involved in it. He just seemed like he was, you know,

he had her around because they were friends and buddies and I'm sure they had sex. They were together for six years. They were a couple. Yeah. For six years. And were a couple. For six years, yeah. And what makes him go off the reservation? But I am of the same mind as you that in this case, I don't think that he's the one who did it. I think he was probably a shitty boyfriend,

but I don't think he killed her, you know what I mean? I mean, she's got a place to live. He's paying her bills. He wasn't paying her bills. That was her house. That's not what we are. It doesn't matter what you heard. The least was in her name that was her house. She made $42,000 that year. She wasn't living off of anybody. I'm not saying she was a saint, but I also

I think it's important to recognize that there were a lot of tales about her at the time that were not accurate. Everything I could find in the original case files makes it very clear that Renee was not living off anyone. She had money in the bank, she owned her car outright. She lived in a house least in her name. She tracked every penny that she brought in and that she spent.

Putnam should have known this. There's the title to her car in the original case file. Notes in the Steno where her landlord says he leased the place to her, not Maurice. It just feels important to clarify because these kinds of misunderstandings about a victim can shape a case, lead it in different directions and bias those who were supposed

to solve it. And even if the detectives did not suspect Maurice, someone did, and she was beating down the agency's door, pleading for them to please pursue new leads, to please solve her daughter's murder. I'm Joyce Boslion. I wish Renee's mother and her sister lived in my house at 29. This is Joyce, Renee's mom. I speak with her early in my investigation because I want to get to know the people

who knew Renee best and who knows you better than your own mom. Today, Joyce lives in the same house, she raised Renee and her five siblings in. It's also the house that Amanda grew up in. It's a modest ranch just outside of New Orleans. I gave the mature to see all of the nutcrackers. She loves to collect things.

Her kitchen is filled with Coca-Cola memorabilia. Her living room has, I kid you not, hundreds of nutcrackers. I'll give to her by her children, grand children, neighbors, and friends. The Bergerons were and still are a picture family. There are stacks of photos, album after album, the walls of the family home adorned in every room with more and more pictures of them all. Even though Rene is gone, she's still present in the household.

Her photos are everywhere. Joyce first found out that Renee had died when the sheriff's office called her and her husband. But she didn't learn the exact details until she traveled to Mobile to recover her daughter's body from the funeral home. The guy from the funeral home told me this mystery is before we make arrangements.

I wanted to talk to the guy that there are cops in mobile, so he got him on the phone. And he's the one that told me, he said, are you aware of your daughter died? I said, I was told she was found on the road. And that's when he could see, could tell me that her head was found two days later. Given the extent of injuries to Renee, the family had to identify her body through small, cropped pictures of her tattoos, a butterfly in the web between her thumb and index finger and the broken heart

above her ankle. We went to the mobile police and I wanted to talk to them. She says the mobile police department here, but she really means the Mobile County Sheriff's Office. It's a common misnomer, but important to clarify. But the guy was in charge of the police department at the time with a telltale of a take home. His attitude was that she was a street person and that she didn't have a place to stay in our list. And I said, you're going to tell me she was home.

I said, the house she was living in. She rented it. The furniture that was in there, she had on it. Regardless, the agency dismissed her, but Joyce pushed back on the detectives. She knew her daughter rented her own place, bought her own furniture, took good care of herself. She wasn't a, quote, street person. And that, when he backed up his chair, he caught his leg,

put it on the table and put the sky my daughter to me, how she was a street person. And I looked at him and I told him, I don't know if you married, I don't know if you have kids. But I said, you got to remember that girl with somebody's daughter, she was somebody's mother, and she was somebody's sister.

One of the detectives dismissed the mother of a murder victim, literally putting his feet up on the table and telling her that her daughter was a street person. Can you imagine? The thing is, Joyce knew about Renee's occasional sex work. She says Renee reassured her that it was closer to shaperoning rich guys than working as a street prostitute. Joyce says that she knew she couldn't control Renee. It was better to make peace with her daughter's choices at any given point in her life,

even if she didn't agree with them. But what she did not make peace with was how the Sheriff's Office treated her. Not only was it cruel, it also hurt their investigation, because Joyce knew who Renee's good friends were. She knew who they should talk to, and Joyce had her own suspicions,

one that she wanted them to investigate. Renee's boyfriend, Maurice. Joyce remembers that Maurice did not come to the funeral, but more than that, Joyce remembers another crucial thing about Maurice. Renee had told her mom that Marie's was abusive towards her. Apparently, Renee and Marie's would get into huge, awful fights. In fact, right before her death, Renee told her mom that she was going to leave Marie's.

She says, while I'm home, she says it's at this point. If I don't leave him, he's going to kill me or I'm a lay-in-up killer here. He says, I can't take it anymore. Joyce told the detectives that she thought they should at least investigate Marie's more. Not that I felt Marie's dead yet, because quote the mobile police, the man is in audition.

He wouldn't use his hand to kill anyone. Any professional man didn't do it, and I looked at him. I said, what about the OJ Center? I said, what in here are professional football players? And I said, don't hand on me that bow just because of your professional that you can't commit murder. Despite being rebuffed, Joyce continued to write letters to the Sheriff's Office. One reads,

Since Renee's death, I have mailed you a copy of a book. I know you got it. I have written you five letters, this being the sixth. Please write me some kind of report as to what has been done and what is being done. Please don't let her be an unsolved case. I know I'm looking answers and answers are what I need. But those letters went unanswered. The same day that Renee's body was found back in November 1993, detectives interviewed her boyfriend Maurice. The following was to take interview, take him with Maurice. Maurice, to part with the center of view is a reference to a young lady that you know

other than Maria Martinez. As we both know now we found Maria Dadek this afternoon that helped with Marche Root. Marche Root. Yeah, where's that? West, West Appeared. There's a cassette recording of this interview. The recorded interview runs less than 20 minutes. That's pretty short for a this interview. The recorded interview runs less than 20 minutes. That's pretty short for a criminal interview. She does drugs, particularly crack cocaine. I don't know if you'd say that she also been turning some tricks. Right. I mean, I didn't know, when down when she was doing it, I never followed her, and we really didn't discuss it,

you know, because I just felt less in the man. I mean, she'd tell me about a trick. She didn't discuss her tricks with me. So I don't know who she was tricking but I know that she was tricking because she'd leave home when she'd come back with money. I drove. Sometimes she goes out of town and does it as my Houston Dallas, wherever. She just sort of comes to the news.

Is that right? Do you have any idea where she may have been staying during this period? She just sort of come to the news. Is that right? Farmer. Do you have any idea of where she may have been staying during this period, where she was going? No, I'm not sure. No, I'm not sure. It's clear that the officers and Marines had talked before the recording started. Oh.

I get it from the conversation. You and I had her here that initially, you and her. started. Oh, I get it from the conversation. You and I had her here that initially you and her, you felt pretty close to it. But because of her lifestyle and so the thing she's been doing, that you, that's close. Not really intimate, but I still love her. But you know, I can't, you know, it's just black and white, just two opposite. But we have always been the best of friends and lovers. Up until the last time she left a couple of months ago,

we had decided really that we were gonna kinda part. And we got back Monday, I thought that maybe we would try to make a, nothing go ahead. She was was trying to straighten the life up and everything and then that Tuesday she was ripping it around again. We have here sad to have you breaking up. You're hurtin' me. I would really have been relieved but I really love Maria we've been thick and thin to this unhelp for many years.

I wouldn't want to see her in her head. I can't I can't understand why somebody want her dead. Other than she ribbons somebody out for something. I mean I'm used to it, you know. Do you have any knowledge about Maria? Can you be dead? No sir. I'm sure it'll not take a lot of detective tests or whatever I have to do. I have no knowledge whatsoever. I have not seen Maria since Thursday night. She hadn't been back home because of I can tell when Maria comes in. She just tears everything up and I was waiting for her late for a clean house back up. She come in, put dishes all over the place, and clothes all over the place.

But I knew that she was close by because her luggage was still there. If her luggage was gone, that means she would have been gone, but her luggage is still there. So she can't be mentioned for. She don't go anywhere without her luggage. Do you have any knowledge of how Maria can be dead? I can't imagine her bastards still just don't seem like she's dead to me. This is hard for me to them.

There is a tongue-in-cheek joke tossed around in true crime. The husband did it. Sadly, this trope exists because it is statistically overwhelmingly the case. When a woman is murdered in America, she is 15 times more likely to have been killed by a man she knows than any other type of offender. Half of them are directly at the hands of an intimate partner.

And it appears that Renee might have experienced abuse from Maurice. Both Joyce and Amanda remember Renee coming to New Orleans with bruises on her body, that she said were from fights with him. So, I know it's important that I speak with Maurice myself, not only to investigate whether he might have had any involvement in Renee's murder, but also to talk with someone else who seemed to know Renee pretty well. Even if he knew her as Maria.

Hey, Sheriff's Office. Sheriff's Office. Thank you. Good morning. Good morning. How are you? Hey, it's Maurice around. Good morning. How you doing? How are you? I spoke with you on the phone yesterday. Yeah. Maurice lives in a quiet residential section of Mobile, not far from downtown.

The street is wide, the homes are lovely mid-century ranches. The oaks are enormous, creating a canopy over the whole neighborhood. It's the summer of 2020, peak COVID, so we stay outside, keeping our distance. The audio unfortunately reflects this. As we talk to Maurice, we learn some of the basics about him. He has adult children who live nearby. They seem like a close family. He's certainly getting up there in age. He was 15 years Renee's senior.

Today, he moves with the help of a wheelchair. Though once he gets where he's going, he stands up to speak. He's an imposing figure. He is tall, very sturdy. He seems very sharp. And though we are there to discuss dark, difficult things, there are moments we get a glimpse of what I suspect is a quick wit, and I can see why Renee was drawn to him.

I do remember her flying me around, because I would be so happy to see it, because a lot of the most of the time when I played, she was out of town. And I would be glad to see her. She still, one time I was playing in the club and this woman was in there. It was married and she was fixated on me. And Maria got the strike. You don't mess with my man. I'm like, oh my God, God. I don't know you were my woman, man.

OK. Maurice shares fond memories of Renee, like when she would come to watch him play music at his gigs. But he is also frank about problems in their relationship. He hones in on her drug use, just as he did in his original interview from 1993. So you two kind of kicked it off. We all first met and then started dating. Is that right?

Yeah. And any problems during that right? Okay. And... Any problems during that dating? We had problems with... She was a drug addict and we shared a bed. To a family? Yeah, she'd be gone sometime for two or three days. I would get a settle whatever, but not not enough to kill or nothing like that.

Yeah. It'd be like, come on through. Um, other than that, man, it was great. We used to go to New Orleans every weekend. I play music and I watch on the appliances on the side every week. And I didn't read it in the reading of Heaven and the money problem. She would even give me money for rent and stuff. So we didn't have any big problems.

He still remembers that Sunday in November. When you found out, I'm sure the investigators asked me, but I didn't see any notes in the file. When was the last time that you saw her part of it now? Because she was found on a Sunday morning. I think I saw her that Wednesday. It was one of them all weekend she was on the band and I hadn't seen. I was looking for it. been and I hadn't seen I was looking for. Marie's work does an electrician during the day and a musician during the evening. Time cards show him clocking into and out of work during most of that week before Renee's

death. He also had music gigs at night. He says Renee seemed to be on a bender during that time. They didn't cross paths much that week. And according to Maurice, he did not find out about Renee's murder until detectives showed up at his door. When it happened, I didn't even go. I went to New Orleans when the day table was funeral, but I didn't even go to your film. I didn't want nothing to remind me that she was gone Well, it would have been a shock. I mean it was oh

That was horrible I Have my theory Who killed us with what's in what's your theory? She got some drugs from somebody on credit And when they came to her, she was so out of it. She didn't have the money so they killed them. That was my idea. But on this year, have you ever known her

to get drugs and credit prior to her death? Because she used to have money. She had, I mean, at the time of her death, she had money according to her death Because she used to have money. She had I mean in that the time of her death She had money according to her banking records, but she kept really meticulous notes You know I Didn't keep up with how much money she had I knew that she had money But I never kept up with it.

I actually got it. She was the sweetest thing in the world. I never will forget her, but I call them a real. We'll find out later, the name was Renee Bertrand. But she always been a real machinist to me. I went into this meeting expecting to dislike Maurice, simply by virtue of what I'd heard about his alleged history of domestic violence. To be clear, my thoughts on that are no different now.

Domestic violence is an intolerable condition. It is a cancer on society. It is endemic. It is on the rise again in this country. And it is a predictor of so many types of violent crime. But when Marie speaks about Renee, it is very difficult, even for me, to not feel empathy for how much sadness he still seems to carry at her loss. Above all, my read on him is that he is being very forthright with us. His answers are clear and natural. There are none of the telltale signs of lies. There's a term of art in law enforcement and in criminal justice in general. You know, take your hand, but you know. You know, take your hand, man, you're a good thing.

There's a term of art and law enforcement and in criminal justice in general, the totality of the circumstances. There is no one thing that eliminates Maurice as a suspect. Maurice appears to have a credible alibi that weekend and no other accounts of René's whereabouts include Maurice. Plus, he seems forthright. There are no red flags.

When I look at the facts of the case, I can arrive at one of two conclusions, either an overarching sense that it just doesn't add up to his having done this, or perhaps even being able to do this, or I must land in a place where I want to continue pushing in this direction. To me, there is nothing that stands out, nothing glaring that says, keep going, there's got to be something there. And frankly, that is a mistake too many investigators make. As I see it, there are witnesses placing both Marie-Sen-Renae at different locations

during almost all of the key points in the timeline leading to her death. There are a few small gaps, holes we can't fill in, but in those holes we have evidence pointing us away from Marie-Sen, and much more clearly to other suspects. There are interviews with people who knew them both in Mobile, none of which raised any suspicion of Maurice. He doesn't match the psychological profile of someone who would do this. And there's no physical evidence, like a weapon tying him to this case. Given our impression of his forthrightness with us,

his statements to detectives in the immediate aftermath of the murder, and a complete absence of anything even coming close to proof that he did commit it. I'm going to side with the totality of the circumstances. I don't see any reason to keep Maurice at the top of the list. I don't think he's our guy. Still, the question remains, who on earth would do this to Renee? Next time, and why can't we talk about Amanda's mom? I think the public needs to know how long the surveillance goes,

how much that the offender gets out of stalking, silently stalking his victim. You cannot assume that the victim is a stranger to the offender. It builds the fantasy. It builds into what he wants to do and how he's going to do it. Everything on the surface to me looked like a sexual homicide, potentially a serial. There was something about her sexuality that was particularly offensive. That's actually really key. Why can't we talk about Amanda's mom is produced

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